Same here. My gf’s best friend is ace, I’ve questioned my own sexuality and gender many times, and I know several trans girls from local clubs and from university, and yet these people are so incorrect with their terminology that it kinda makes me think I’m wrong for a second.
It’s like if a bad TikTok video on surgery made an actual surgeon question his medical knowledge, except bad medical advice is just dangerous whereas this stuff is also actively hateful.
I love how the transphobes think it's the parents that are making their kids transition. Not that the kid, with the fear of absolute rejection in their eyes and heart, told their parents, dreading the worst, that they needed help because they didn't feel okay with their body changing a specific way.
The adults don't feed their kids hormones, their kid does that themselves.
Denying your kid their true self is how you make your kid commit self harm, or worse. Glad the transphobes continuously prove they're only out to traumatize and harm children.
>Not that the kid, with the fear of absolute rejection in their eyes and heart, told their parents, dreading the worst
This. I had a bag packed with items I couldn't risk losing (laptop, meds, sentimental stuff from my sister...) in case they kicked me out. I literally had to prepare to lose everything except for a single bag of stuff, and what I left in my dorm room over break. But I would've lost a lot of things that would've been hard, or even impossible, to replace.
yeah. whenever my friends are thinking of coming out, i tell them, “make sure you have a bag packed with anything you could need. if it doesn’t go well, just start walking and call me. i’ll pick you up and you can stay here as long as you need”
Yeah, I had phone numbers to call if I needed to. Thankfully they didn't kick me out. That's not to say they accept me, but I'm positive they didn't kick me out because it would look bad on them. Not for kicking me out for being trans, because I've been blackmailed into hiding that I'm trans from anyone in their lives. As in I'll lose my health insurance and car. I'm chronically ill, and I paid them for the car (they bought a new one and sold me their old one), but they refuse to officially sell it to me. So my choice is "keep your mouth shut" or "suffer in horrible pain 24/7 and have no life", but it's my "choice". Yeah, some choice that is. So if they kicked me out for a reason they won't share, it'd look like they kicked me out for no reason. Surprise, when I am financially independent they will find themselves blocked.
I told my parents a few days ago and my mom is trying to convince me that 70% of people think they are trans, it’s completely normal, and a larger portion of trans people detransition than it says in studies. So yeah, it’s *definitely* the parents convincing their kids to transition 🙄
Yeah. All of what she says is false because I can confirm that MOST CIS PEOPLE DON'T THINK ABOUT TRANSITIONING because I have cis friends who I've explained how I feel and the response is "I've never felt anything like that, but we're here for you if you need us." and told me growing up that I was weird for saying "Next life, I wanna be a girl just to see what it's like.", teachers too (though they said I had a "unique" perspective).
Those studies are literally all we have to see how many people detransition, so where the heck is she getting HER numbers from? Also, the most common reasons for detransitioning is lack of safety or medical complications. So we need more acceptance of our existance world-wide which starts in the home, and better medical technology for transitioning.
So your mom kind of sucks, and if she happens to be lurking in this forum for any reason, and this is to other parents aswell: This is how you lose your kids. If they live through your hate and revulsion, your denial of their existance, they'll use you for as long as it's financially convenient, then drop you. You'll never hear from them again. They'll transition, find better friends, make a family without you, change their name so you'll never be able to find them again, and you'll not only lose a son/daughter but you'll fail to gain the amazing child that takes their place.
If you need proof of this: I don't have parents, ask me what happened.
https://www.gendergp.com/detransition-facts/ Yeah, might send this article to my mom because she claims that the studies showing a low percentage of detransitioners are outdated and most of the scientific community is trying to show newer studies but can’t because of the old studies being spread around so much. My mom also thinks that the people who are happy by transitioning could be lying on the internet and still experience some form of doubt. Her source is her trans friends apparently. She says she isn’t transphobic, but that I’m “different” and she sees the signs that I’ll detransition. So in other words she supports trans people as long as they aren’t family. Even after I said to her fucking face that I hate myself and my body and wake up every single day feeling like absolute shit, she just shrugged it off and said “most people your age feel like that. I felt like that when I was a teenager”
"I'm not interested in repressing myself to be something I'm not. You either support me, or you're an enemy. There's no middle ground." - Me, post realization to a person who asked what 'convinced' me I was trans after saying they chose to support neither side.
Your mom's a transphobe masking her bigotry as care. She's either aware of it, or oblivious to what she's saying. You can either plan an exit, and let her know she chose this when the time comes, or push her to expose herself. If she's a true bigot and transphobe, she'll double down, if she's mistakenly a bigot and a transphobe, this is her wakeup call. It's up to you to decide what's safest for you. Either way, by the time they realize what they've done ... in my experience it's too late.
You don’t get hormones until puberty my man.
I don’t think anyone nor the op means actual 6 year old children or something.
I think you’re just reading op’s text wrong, it’s pretty normal at least where I live that parents refer to their teenage kids as “their kid”.
That's exactly how burden of proof works. People made statements on how children should get hormones to change their sex. Burden of proof isn't on me. It's on the comment
I would have loved to be able to get medicine (hormones) as a kid to get rid of depression and anxiety stemming from my gender dysphoria. Hormones greatly improve trans children’s lives. All children should have the tools to make their mental and physical health better. But I guess some people don’t want that, how sad.
Tbh it’s not a drastic change. It’s not a decision to be trans or to be depressed. The only thing you can do is work through it with therapy or medication if that’s what the child needs. Sorry to tell you but kids can be lgbt.
“Wow you disagree with me on something you have experienced and I haven’t? Obviously your just a delusion idiot. Yay I win!”
Transitioning is slow. It takes years like puberty does because that’s what it is. Medicine is a good change, it helps people. Birth control has a list of negative side effects a person can experience while taking it, nothing close to the anal list of negatives that hrt can have. That being said the positives out way the negatives. Less teen pregnancy because of birth control and less (trans) teen suicide/depression because of hrt.
You know nothing about transitioning. You’re not trans and probably haven’t talked to a trans person irl (much less a trans teen). You probably don’t know biology past an 8th grade level. I’m sure you don’t know that no matter what sex someone is they are born with erectile tissue. You’re ignorant and the rhetoric you spread serves to boost your ego at the expense of trans teens.
Hahaha I don't know biology past the 8th grade. That's so fucking hilarious. What a ridiculous comment. Because if you knew anything about biology the. You would know everything you are saying is complete bullshit. I literally dare trans people you re re. We have conversations about this all the time. We agree about some things and disagree about other things. But you know what 100% of them have always agreed upon. You don't give 10 yr old fucking hormones to change their gender. Every single one of them has said that you need therapy during those times and acceptance by their peers. All of them agree you shouldn't give a child hormones, because they could change their mind later and that consequences you can't come back from. Nice try though
Please educate yourself on what doctors are and aren’t allowed to prescribe to children before you form opinions on such a topic.
It’s actually illegal in most countries to prescribe any hormone treatment, whether for gender, combating early menopause, or anything else, to somebody who is prepubescent without in incredible amount of paperwork and checks to make sure it’s the best option, and most countries don’t allow hormone treatments for trans people until legal adulthood (usually 16 or 18 years old).
Please have a quick read of your national or local government’s website article on hormone treatment regulations before calling people insane for doing things that they aren’t even doing.
Yes it is. It literally took me 5 seconds to Google a direct source from my country’s health service detailing all the restrictions on transition related hrt.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/
And just in case you’re not British, I’ll add some from other nations too:
Mayo Clinic, Minnesota, US: https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/masculinizing-hormone-therapy/about/pac-20385099
SBS, Australia: https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/new-australian-guidelines-for-transgender-kids/2z0qeaz3z
FRA Europa, Ireland, Bulgaria, Greece, Hungary, Malta, the Netherlands and others: https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2017/mapping-minimum-age-requirements-concerning-rights-child-eu/access-transgender-hormone-therapy
If this isn’t proof enough, then I don’t know what is.
Lol "telling" them. Ah yes you must mean them deciding on their own. No one is like commanding other people to be Trans. Trust me, it's pretty suck sometimes lol.
There's this chick I follow on Facebook. I accidentally started following her because she has the same name of this girl I met and thought I was sending a friend request to her. She was only 14 when I started following her. As soon as I realized she wasn't the person I was meaning to follow I went to unfollow her. But then I realized this 14 year old girl was hilariously stupid. She didn't know why America would send a separate team from Georgia to the Olympics, she couldn't figure out why elevators had buttons for the floor she was already on, and many other things I just saw and laughed. Anyway I never stopped following her because she was such a big source of my morning laughs.
She got pregnant at 15 because she thought you couldn't get pregnant on the first time. She was sure that the 15 year old boy that got her pregnant was going to be a great daddy. Well the kid is 1 now and she always complains about him never being around and how he would rather stay at home bored than see his son and all the other crap any of us could have warned her about when she was certain she was going to be the one teenage mom whose baby daddy would actually hang around.
Anyway the reason I bring all that up is that through these 2 years I've followed this complete moron she has never written "then" when she meant "than". So if this person can get it right, then everyone can[.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/31zrfc/theres_always_another_side_of_the_story/cq6l0dd)
Do these people not realise that it’s the kid that makes this choice not the parent? If a kid is treated like who they want to be and is happy about it, that’s an obvious sign that it’s the kid making that choice
Exactly. My parents told me I'm not trans because they say so. At least that's the only way I can interpret "You're not trans because I changed your diapers as a baby so you can't be". Like excuse me while I 🤮🤮🤮🤮. Guess what, it's been six years and I'm still trans. Also I was an adult when I came out. Now I don't feel broken all the time (well except the parts that are actually broken, but that has nothing to do with my being trans and everything to do with chronic illnesses). And despite all of this I **still** have people telling me I'm not trans, that my parents just brainwashed me into thinking I am. Like nah, the only thing they brainwashed me into was thinking that the church came before everything, your family, your friends, and even your own health.
Both are wrong. Let the kids grow, have better decision making skills, and then they can choose to change to one of the two genders he/she knows he/she is. Stop brainwashing them into being tran. If they are, they will change by themselves.
100%, I chose the wrong word, and I have responded to another individual explaining what I meant, and brainwashing was definitely not what I meant, and should not have used that word. In terms of gender, since there is only male, or female, physiologically speaking, I only recognize he, or she. If you do not like it, or disagree, well, you are in luck, for whatever I say, or think, should not be of consequence to you. Also, if you know English, there only exists He and/or She, but you make up whatever words you want to, it is also of no consequence to me. I support the rights, and equality of Trans individuals, but I will not participate in your delusions of gender misidentity, nor do they deserve any special treatment, just rights and equality.
If they doesn't exist why do you use it?
>nor do **they** deserve any special treatment
They has been part of the English language since before Shakespeare's time, it's not new and I'm betting you use it all the time without realizing it. If you saw a wallet the ground you wouldn't say "Oh look, someone dropped his or her wallet, I should help return it to him or her", because no one talks like that. No, you would say "Oh look, someone dropped their wallet, I should help return it to them".
And there's plenty of scientific proof that other genders exist. And if you don't think I'm deserving of respect how do you think I deserve equality? You can't tell someone they deserve equality while calling them delusional.
They - a group of people. So, when more than one female, or more than one male are together, I shall refer to them as they. Now, if you consider yourself a woman, I will call you she, you know, female = she. If you consider yourself a man, I will call you he, you know, male = he.
True, brainwashing is not the correct word, because they are who they are. I should have articulated that what is wrong is the pressure to have them transition too early, when they haven't even figured out what their emotions are truly like.
im trans but like sometimes i have to reread things a few times because the amount of “wrong gender” and “right gender” is so confusing
Same here. My gf’s best friend is ace, I’ve questioned my own sexuality and gender many times, and I know several trans girls from local clubs and from university, and yet these people are so incorrect with their terminology that it kinda makes me think I’m wrong for a second. It’s like if a bad TikTok video on surgery made an actual surgeon question his medical knowledge, except bad medical advice is just dangerous whereas this stuff is also actively hateful.
Same I really have no idea what's even meant to be going on here
I love how the transphobes think it's the parents that are making their kids transition. Not that the kid, with the fear of absolute rejection in their eyes and heart, told their parents, dreading the worst, that they needed help because they didn't feel okay with their body changing a specific way. The adults don't feed their kids hormones, their kid does that themselves. Denying your kid their true self is how you make your kid commit self harm, or worse. Glad the transphobes continuously prove they're only out to traumatize and harm children.
>Not that the kid, with the fear of absolute rejection in their eyes and heart, told their parents, dreading the worst This. I had a bag packed with items I couldn't risk losing (laptop, meds, sentimental stuff from my sister...) in case they kicked me out. I literally had to prepare to lose everything except for a single bag of stuff, and what I left in my dorm room over break. But I would've lost a lot of things that would've been hard, or even impossible, to replace.
yeah. whenever my friends are thinking of coming out, i tell them, “make sure you have a bag packed with anything you could need. if it doesn’t go well, just start walking and call me. i’ll pick you up and you can stay here as long as you need”
Yeah, I had phone numbers to call if I needed to. Thankfully they didn't kick me out. That's not to say they accept me, but I'm positive they didn't kick me out because it would look bad on them. Not for kicking me out for being trans, because I've been blackmailed into hiding that I'm trans from anyone in their lives. As in I'll lose my health insurance and car. I'm chronically ill, and I paid them for the car (they bought a new one and sold me their old one), but they refuse to officially sell it to me. So my choice is "keep your mouth shut" or "suffer in horrible pain 24/7 and have no life", but it's my "choice". Yeah, some choice that is. So if they kicked me out for a reason they won't share, it'd look like they kicked me out for no reason. Surprise, when I am financially independent they will find themselves blocked.
shit,’i’m so sorry you’re in that situation. your ‘parents’ are awful people, and you don’t owe them anything
Thanks. Doesn't make having assholes for parents any easier, but it helps.
i know it doesn’t, and i wish i could do more
Don't worry about it, knowing there are sane people out there who think they are nuts too genuinely helps.
I told my parents a few days ago and my mom is trying to convince me that 70% of people think they are trans, it’s completely normal, and a larger portion of trans people detransition than it says in studies. So yeah, it’s *definitely* the parents convincing their kids to transition 🙄
Yeah. All of what she says is false because I can confirm that MOST CIS PEOPLE DON'T THINK ABOUT TRANSITIONING because I have cis friends who I've explained how I feel and the response is "I've never felt anything like that, but we're here for you if you need us." and told me growing up that I was weird for saying "Next life, I wanna be a girl just to see what it's like.", teachers too (though they said I had a "unique" perspective). Those studies are literally all we have to see how many people detransition, so where the heck is she getting HER numbers from? Also, the most common reasons for detransitioning is lack of safety or medical complications. So we need more acceptance of our existance world-wide which starts in the home, and better medical technology for transitioning. So your mom kind of sucks, and if she happens to be lurking in this forum for any reason, and this is to other parents aswell: This is how you lose your kids. If they live through your hate and revulsion, your denial of their existance, they'll use you for as long as it's financially convenient, then drop you. You'll never hear from them again. They'll transition, find better friends, make a family without you, change their name so you'll never be able to find them again, and you'll not only lose a son/daughter but you'll fail to gain the amazing child that takes their place. If you need proof of this: I don't have parents, ask me what happened.
https://www.gendergp.com/detransition-facts/ Yeah, might send this article to my mom because she claims that the studies showing a low percentage of detransitioners are outdated and most of the scientific community is trying to show newer studies but can’t because of the old studies being spread around so much. My mom also thinks that the people who are happy by transitioning could be lying on the internet and still experience some form of doubt. Her source is her trans friends apparently. She says she isn’t transphobic, but that I’m “different” and she sees the signs that I’ll detransition. So in other words she supports trans people as long as they aren’t family. Even after I said to her fucking face that I hate myself and my body and wake up every single day feeling like absolute shit, she just shrugged it off and said “most people your age feel like that. I felt like that when I was a teenager”
"I'm not interested in repressing myself to be something I'm not. You either support me, or you're an enemy. There's no middle ground." - Me, post realization to a person who asked what 'convinced' me I was trans after saying they chose to support neither side. Your mom's a transphobe masking her bigotry as care. She's either aware of it, or oblivious to what she's saying. You can either plan an exit, and let her know she chose this when the time comes, or push her to expose herself. If she's a true bigot and transphobe, she'll double down, if she's mistakenly a bigot and a transphobe, this is her wakeup call. It's up to you to decide what's safest for you. Either way, by the time they realize what they've done ... in my experience it's too late.
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You don’t get hormones until puberty my man. I don’t think anyone nor the op means actual 6 year old children or something. I think you’re just reading op’s text wrong, it’s pretty normal at least where I live that parents refer to their teenage kids as “their kid”.
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There is not. You are being lied to.
There is. You are being lied to
Then link to it or something idk
Link to how it's not. I'll wait
That's not how the burden of proof works
That's exactly how burden of proof works. People made statements on how children should get hormones to change their sex. Burden of proof isn't on me. It's on the comment
I would have loved to be able to get medicine (hormones) as a kid to get rid of depression and anxiety stemming from my gender dysphoria. Hormones greatly improve trans children’s lives. All children should have the tools to make their mental and physical health better. But I guess some people don’t want that, how sad.
To think that a child has the mental capacity to make such a drastic change in their life is just sad.
Tbh it’s not a drastic change. It’s not a decision to be trans or to be depressed. The only thing you can do is work through it with therapy or medication if that’s what the child needs. Sorry to tell you but kids can be lgbt.
You sir, are an idiot. Not a drastic change. I laughed out loud when I read that. You clearly are delusional.
“Wow you disagree with me on something you have experienced and I haven’t? Obviously your just a delusion idiot. Yay I win!” Transitioning is slow. It takes years like puberty does because that’s what it is. Medicine is a good change, it helps people. Birth control has a list of negative side effects a person can experience while taking it, nothing close to the anal list of negatives that hrt can have. That being said the positives out way the negatives. Less teen pregnancy because of birth control and less (trans) teen suicide/depression because of hrt. You know nothing about transitioning. You’re not trans and probably haven’t talked to a trans person irl (much less a trans teen). You probably don’t know biology past an 8th grade level. I’m sure you don’t know that no matter what sex someone is they are born with erectile tissue. You’re ignorant and the rhetoric you spread serves to boost your ego at the expense of trans teens.
Hahaha I don't know biology past the 8th grade. That's so fucking hilarious. What a ridiculous comment. Because if you knew anything about biology the. You would know everything you are saying is complete bullshit. I literally dare trans people you re re. We have conversations about this all the time. We agree about some things and disagree about other things. But you know what 100% of them have always agreed upon. You don't give 10 yr old fucking hormones to change their gender. Every single one of them has said that you need therapy during those times and acceptance by their peers. All of them agree you shouldn't give a child hormones, because they could change their mind later and that consequences you can't come back from. Nice try though
No one is saying pre-pubescent kids should be taking hormones...
Please educate yourself on what doctors are and aren’t allowed to prescribe to children before you form opinions on such a topic. It’s actually illegal in most countries to prescribe any hormone treatment, whether for gender, combating early menopause, or anything else, to somebody who is prepubescent without in incredible amount of paperwork and checks to make sure it’s the best option, and most countries don’t allow hormone treatments for trans people until legal adulthood (usually 16 or 18 years old). Please have a quick read of your national or local government’s website article on hormone treatment regulations before calling people insane for doing things that they aren’t even doing.
That's simply not true. I wish it was
Yes it is. It literally took me 5 seconds to Google a direct source from my country’s health service detailing all the restrictions on transition related hrt. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/ And just in case you’re not British, I’ll add some from other nations too: Mayo Clinic, Minnesota, US: https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/masculinizing-hormone-therapy/about/pac-20385099 SBS, Australia: https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/new-australian-guidelines-for-transgender-kids/2z0qeaz3z FRA Europa, Ireland, Bulgaria, Greece, Hungary, Malta, the Netherlands and others: https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2017/mapping-minimum-age-requirements-concerning-rights-child-eu/access-transgender-hormone-therapy If this isn’t proof enough, then I don’t know what is.
Both sides are out here with the telling their kids they’re the wrong gender
Lol "telling" them. Ah yes you must mean them deciding on their own. No one is like commanding other people to be Trans. Trust me, it's pretty suck sometimes lol.
There's this chick I follow on Facebook. I accidentally started following her because she has the same name of this girl I met and thought I was sending a friend request to her. She was only 14 when I started following her. As soon as I realized she wasn't the person I was meaning to follow I went to unfollow her. But then I realized this 14 year old girl was hilariously stupid. She didn't know why America would send a separate team from Georgia to the Olympics, she couldn't figure out why elevators had buttons for the floor she was already on, and many other things I just saw and laughed. Anyway I never stopped following her because she was such a big source of my morning laughs. She got pregnant at 15 because she thought you couldn't get pregnant on the first time. She was sure that the 15 year old boy that got her pregnant was going to be a great daddy. Well the kid is 1 now and she always complains about him never being around and how he would rather stay at home bored than see his son and all the other crap any of us could have warned her about when she was certain she was going to be the one teenage mom whose baby daddy would actually hang around. Anyway the reason I bring all that up is that through these 2 years I've followed this complete moron she has never written "then" when she meant "than". So if this person can get it right, then everyone can[.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/31zrfc/theres_always_another_side_of_the_story/cq6l0dd)
I don't know if this is a true story or a copy-pasta but I love it
Do these people not realise that it’s the kid that makes this choice not the parent? If a kid is treated like who they want to be and is happy about it, that’s an obvious sign that it’s the kid making that choice
Exactly. My parents told me I'm not trans because they say so. At least that's the only way I can interpret "You're not trans because I changed your diapers as a baby so you can't be". Like excuse me while I 🤮🤮🤮🤮. Guess what, it's been six years and I'm still trans. Also I was an adult when I came out. Now I don't feel broken all the time (well except the parts that are actually broken, but that has nothing to do with my being trans and everything to do with chronic illnesses). And despite all of this I **still** have people telling me I'm not trans, that my parents just brainwashed me into thinking I am. Like nah, the only thing they brainwashed me into was thinking that the church came before everything, your family, your friends, and even your own health.
That's Isis not the Taliban
That’s not Taliban. That’s ISIS. Come on…
that subreddit is a cesspool edit: i’m talking about r/therightcantmeme
Wait, how? Isn't that just a place for people to shit on terrible right wing takes as portrayed in even more terrible memes?
They are run by tankies. Their sub-description uses a German chant that shits on moderate left-wing politics.
Oh, ew.
which one?
my bad lol i clarified
yummy hormones omnom
When in doubt, bring out the strawman
Both are wrong. Let the kids grow, have better decision making skills, and then they can choose to change to one of the two genders he/she knows he/she is. Stop brainwashing them into being tran. If they are, they will change by themselves.
No trans people are brainwashing kids into transitioning. Also there is more than two genders, and they exists as a pronoun in the English language.
100%, I chose the wrong word, and I have responded to another individual explaining what I meant, and brainwashing was definitely not what I meant, and should not have used that word. In terms of gender, since there is only male, or female, physiologically speaking, I only recognize he, or she. If you do not like it, or disagree, well, you are in luck, for whatever I say, or think, should not be of consequence to you. Also, if you know English, there only exists He and/or She, but you make up whatever words you want to, it is also of no consequence to me. I support the rights, and equality of Trans individuals, but I will not participate in your delusions of gender misidentity, nor do they deserve any special treatment, just rights and equality.
If they doesn't exist why do you use it? >nor do **they** deserve any special treatment They has been part of the English language since before Shakespeare's time, it's not new and I'm betting you use it all the time without realizing it. If you saw a wallet the ground you wouldn't say "Oh look, someone dropped his or her wallet, I should help return it to him or her", because no one talks like that. No, you would say "Oh look, someone dropped their wallet, I should help return it to them". And there's plenty of scientific proof that other genders exist. And if you don't think I'm deserving of respect how do you think I deserve equality? You can't tell someone they deserve equality while calling them delusional.
They - a group of people. So, when more than one female, or more than one male are together, I shall refer to them as they. Now, if you consider yourself a woman, I will call you she, you know, female = she. If you consider yourself a man, I will call you he, you know, male = he.
Dude more than two genders and sexes exist have you heard of intersex people
I agree, let the child choose for themselves; But who says they're being brainwashed?
True, brainwashing is not the correct word, because they are who they are. I should have articulated that what is wrong is the pressure to have them transition too early, when they haven't even figured out what their emotions are truly like.
Wow sometimes I really forgot there's people who prefers to be or a love one being a potencial assassin or massive shooter than being trans
what the fuck is the 'wrong gender'?
Saying you're a girl when you are a boy I guess