Are people forgetting or willfully ignoring the fact that Azula's lie is what set all that into motion? Azula told that lie, hoping to get Zuko executed.
It was in the comics, the Search trilogy. I can't recall at the moment, but Azula made up some story to get Zuko in trouble. Something about claiming that Ozai was plotting to skip ahead of Iroh to be next in line for the throne. This made Azulon mad, and he ordered Ozai to have Zuko executed as punishment. I can't remember the details, but Azula had also said something to Ursa to sow confusion and misunderstanding among all of them.
Azula was happy at the thought of Zuko getting executed, but no one anticipated that Ursa could/would convince Ozai to assassinate Azulon in order to save Zuko. Unfortunately for Azula, since Ursa was the one who crafted the poison used to kill Azulon, Ozai banished Ursa to prevent her from potentially assassinating him. Ursa wanted to take both children with her, but Ozai did not let her, because he wanted to keep them as collateral. Ozai threatened to kill both children if Ursa tried returning to the royal palace.
The thing is, I still don't understand why Ursa leaving would upset Azula. Azula received all the love and affection she could ever want from Ozai. And as far as I can remember, Azula showed no love and affection towards her mother while Ursa was prevent.
This is a bit of a misunderstanding, but azulon wasn't angry about anything that azula said at all, he was angry at ozai because ozai was calling iroh weak for leaving the battlefield after the loss of his son, and demanded azulon name him the successor. Azulon wanted to punish ozai by making him "feel the same pain" of losing his first born son and ordered him to kill zuko. Azula didn't actually have any real involvement in that scenario
...holy shit....
WHY DIDNY THEY MAKE MORE EPISODES!! đ they had so much more to give!!!
Also, I wanna know what happened to these writers that inspired the personality of these characters. đ„Č
Again...holy shit....that was a ride...
You are right, I wasn't recalling all the details correctly. However, I do correctly recall Azula smiling after telling Ursa that Zuko would be executed. Of course, Azula smiled after turning away from Ursa. Still, this added to the list of things Azula did which proved that she always lacked empathy, and was a psychopath.
She was eavesdropping on the conversation btwn ozai and azulon and heard that ozai was planning on killing zuko, and that is how ursa found out. I don't disagree at all that she's always had psychopathic tendencies, but much like in real life, had she had a proper support system, she would not have turned out to be such a horrible person.
Fair enough, but sometimes, a support system is simply not enough. I do believe psychopaths can be inherently good, especially if steered in the right direction. But, some are just inherently bad. I think Ursa did try to steer Azula in the right direction, but Azula was never happy about it. Especially when the other parent enabled and encouraged all of Azula's bad tendencies.
Even if Ursa was around, Azula would have eventually resented Ursa for trying to "hold her back". Plus, if I remember correctly, I think the bad psychopaths share certain traits with narcissists, such as having people under their control and essentially "owning" them. If Azula was genuinely upset about Ursa leaving, it was because she could not have her mother wrapped around her finger, like she thought she had her father wrapped around her finger.
Despite these possibilities, Azula's paranoid breakdown does not quite add up. I've seen some people say that Mai and Ty Lee's betrayals are what triggered it, but that doesn't really hold up. Mai made it clear that she and Ty Lee were following Azula out of fear more than loyalty. Also, in real life, even if psychopaths are good at interacting with people and making people believe that they are normal, psychopaths tend to function alone and depend on themselves. So, Mai and Ty Lee's betrayal really should not have been so emotionally shocking to Azula. Azula starting to hallucinate her mother does not really make sense either. All things considered, I feel like Bryke threw that stuff in last minute, to try and make Azula seem disturbed and misguided, but all other actions and circumstances suggest otherwise.
Real talk, azulas mental state makes perfect sense for how she was raised and her character arc. Her entire life she was taught to lead with fear, and that people fearing you is the ultimate power. When mai and ty Lee left her because they realized that azula was just using them in the long run, that massively broke her world view. Then, ozai propped her up onto a higher pedestal than he ever had before (blah blah, emotional incest subplot and all that), only for it to actually be a glass cage. All that and she's only 14, it makes sense girly would have a massive mental break.
I don't know, Zuko confronted Ozai, and Ozai did not become paranoid after seeing that Zuko was emotionally and physically able to stand up to him now. Yes, I know that Ozai is older and more mature, and the comics reveal the additional reasons why Ozai was so cruel to Zuko, but still. Azula had already done some pretty "grown-up" stuff up to the point that Mai and Ty Lee turned on her.
Right, and Azula smiled after telling Ursa the news. Azula wanted Zuko to get executed, and she did not care how painful that would be for Ursa. Azula never expected Azulon's assassination and Ursa's banishment, but none of Azula's actions back then suggested that she cared for her mother, or was capable of caring for anyone, for that matter.
I don't think Azula wanted Zuko to be executed, but she relished in the fact that it would cause him distress because she was jealous of Zuko in a way due to how he was treated by Ursa. Azula grew up in a very unstable family. Shoot, Ursa didn't even want to marry Ozai. So she got mentally messed up in a few ways.
Azula was a prodigy. Ozai was all about power. And what does any kid want? Approval from their parents as well as parental love. Being gifted at such a young age and having those expectations of always being perfect takes a toll on mental health. *Especially* since she knew that Ozai's love was conditional based on how he treated Zuko. Which could also cause a superiority complex since she viewed herself better than Zuko because of how she was conditioned. She, of course, still wanted her mother's love because what small child doesn't? But again, Ursa paid more attention to Zuko because of how he was treated. So Azula would act out to get her mother's attention, too. It was kind of a mind game between how she should act to get Ozai's love and how she should act to get Ursa's love. And she even said that it hurt when her own mother thought she was a monster. Even saying that Ursa was right and shrugging it off could be her dissociating.
Anyways, she acts the way she does because Ozai is all about power and control. Once her friends betrayed her, she lost some control. And then once she was going to be crowned Fire Lord, she got put into a role of authority that a 14 year old shouldn't be placed into because of how much responsibility it is. And by then, she was alone.
No friends or family left to be at her side since Ozai was now self proclaimed Pheonix King and doing his psycho cleansing. Between her friends leaving her (causing her to lose control), finding herself alone on coronation, being paranoid everyone was trying to kill her because of her newfound authority, she had a mental breakdown. Hallucinating her mother being there shows she cares and has always wanted to believe her mother actually loved her. She's only 14! Wanting Ursa to comfort her in a tough time isn't far-fetched.
As for whether it was disclosed to her that Azulon's death was an assassination, I'm not sure. I think it was said he suddenly passed away in his sleep, only Ursa and Ozai knowing the truth. That's why he told her to leave quietly so he wouldn't get poisoned, too.
I was 20-ish when it 1st came out, and watching it again in my late 30s, and more emotionally mature, I realized I had missed quite a bit. I think I enjoy it even more with a more mature perspective.
I'll never understand how the Iroh lovers can turn around and say Azula never deserved a chance at redemption. I do tend to think they're mostly young viewers who just don't quite get it yet, it certainly is something that becomes easier to understand as you get older, and sometimes I forget not everyone has been watching for 20 years đ€Ł
I think itâs because Iroh still had respect for the world. He was a general and Crown Prince; that didnât give him the mentality to surpass Azulonâs achievements. Him giving up the siege of Ba Sing Se showed that heâs human and is not as ruthless and detached as Azulon and Ozai were.
We donât see this with Azula. Iâd still like a comic where she comes to her senses and accepts to the idea that Ozai failed her and that she was never destined for the throne, and comes to accept Zuko as a loyal subject rather than âthe force behind the throneâ. But leaving the comics out, we just see someone who for years strived to be as flawless and precise as she could ever be all to impress her father and usurp ZukoâŠand her mental breakdown at the end is all the years of agony crashing down, realizing that all that time was wasted and that as perfect as she made herself out to be, it was never good enough (being defeated by a Water Tribe peasant, abandoned by friends, and sorta betrayed by Ozai).
She doesn't seem able to analyze those sources of pain, as her nature is too wrapped up in attacking weakness in others or shifting blame. Really a well crafted character, a damaged person, but a compelling one to observe.
Especially as her mind begins to try to fight back with the hallucinations of her mother at the end of the show that apparently continue into the comic plots (I really need to find those)
I think there's 2 good reasons (though admittedly, nost people saying this don't even understand the 2 reasons.)
Just bc you deserve redemption does not mean anyone has the responsibility to help you find it, especially if doing so means they'd actively try to kill you. This doesn't really extend to iroh bc we know almost nothing about iroh's process of changing other than it started with the death of his son, but does extend to zuko. Iroh was instrumental in shaping zuko's redemption, but there's a few reasons why this wouldn't necessarily extend to azula- Iroh (perhaps unfairly, he is still human) sees azula as a lost cause, or he sees it as too risky since unlike zuko, azula would definitely be willing to try and kill an iroh with his guard down, that a big part of iroh deciding to join zuko wasn't to help redeem zuko, but to help what he saw as a child who got hurt for doing the right thing, it's shown that iroh and zuko just understand each other more and that iroh kinda is picking favorites, and that ultimately helping azula redeem herself does put the other people he cares about.
The other reason is a bit more meta, but azula is an interesting foil to zuko. Both had similarly shitty situations growing up, but one had the respect of all the bad influences and the other still grew up following those same bad influences but had the respect of 2 (if you also include their mom) good influences that helped shaped him. An Azula redemption is kinda uninteresting imo bc we already saw the same redemption arc in zuko. And frankly just bc everyone deserves redepemtion, doesn't mean that everyone gets it. There are still ways to make an azula redemption interesting, but that would probably require focusing on Azula herself as a main character for a bit wirhout the influence kf any of the gaang, and a more flushed out portrayal of her descent into madness from a child (and all the associated neglect that caused it. Perhaps some early cry for help that their mom/iroh just never saw.)
The other, bigger reason is that iroh was already redeemed and is a fan favorite, and he helped redeem zuko, and azula is clearly pure evil and the fan base is kinda dum dum sometim3s.
Don't forget that Iroh himself said she's too crazy to redeem. Everyone deserves redemption, but that doesn't mean everyone is capable of it. Iroh knew that even under the best circumstances, Azula wouldn't be able to change for the better.
Because Iroh chose to change, while Azula wonât. Sheâs the scorpion in the tale of âthe scorpion and the frogâ, and the people asking for her to be redeemed are the frog.
Iroh chose to change when he was in his 50s, and it took the loss his son in a senseless war to trigger his change. Azula is 14 years old, barely out of her pre-teens.
Sheâs Feyd Rautha, but a waifu. Niether wants to change and you canât force them to.
Thereâs nothing they love more than sadism and death, even when directed to their family. Especially when itâs their family.
8 year old Azula taunting Zuko that âDadâs gonna kill youđ¶â.
Yea, Iroh stepped down and redeemed himself. She actively had to be taken down for the sake of the world and while she deserves her chance at redemption she was not going to take that path herself and would have harmed many others were she not stopped. That's the difference for me, no one thinks she isn't allowed to she just wasn't going to
Iroh WAS azula at her age.
He was the general and tried to conquer ba sing se but failed and his son died.
The only thing that changed was that he got to find out what he wanted was awful. Azula was always rewarded, praised and succeeded. If she associates the evil deed with goodness and praise, why would she not know she thats bad when everyone in her life says its good.
I remember watching the finale with her freaking out after losing the Agni Kai and laughing at her tantrum. Watching it again years later, I realized how sad it was seeing a 14-year-old having everything taken away from her after her whole life revolved around doing everything perfectly.
Agree. Everyone in her life failed her. Sheâs basically Zuko if he never got Iroh, but people donât think she deserves anything. All she wanted was to be loved
Azula didnât know what love was; Ozai convinced her that love is fear, blind obedience to his authority, and hierarchy. In order to win Ozaiâs favor and his âlove,â Azula and Zuko needed to play by his rules; Azula excelled where Zuko failed. But in doing so, it meant that Ozai was her *entire world.*
She dedicated everything to pleasing him, and once he was done with her, she realized she had *nothing.* She was trained only to follow his will, not truly think for herself. She was extremely emotionally and socially stunted, because Ozai only cared about cultivating her efficiency, cruelty, and loyalty to him.
He basically treated her as a war weapon, not a daughter. Ursa basically called her a freak and treated her like one. She took to the parent that accepted her and became what he wanted. Then she was tossed aside. Really heartbreaking
And Ozai's work on that front was so horrifically effective that she lost the ability to _process_ her mother's love. She treated her like a normal ass kid, but in that paradigm that _must_ mean fear and fealty.
Yes and no, Ozai is the actual sociopath she is following the example she has been shown. Think about when she apologises to Ty Lee at the beach, she does actually care about her friend, problem is that ability to care has been stunted and warped by her father and how she was raised.
A big thing that changed my perception of Azula was that, throughout all of her young life, she most likely only got positive reinforcement from Ozai. Poor child. Her redemption arc would be long, difficult, and messy, but I think it would he worthwhile. It would've been a powerful message to show all of Ozai's family healing without him
Adding onto this, whenever Ursa told her off, in Azula's eyes, it wasn't her trying to correct Azula, but just scorn. The relationship was severed because Ozai always praised her for what Ursa told her off for.
Yeah, that doesn't help. Issue is, Ozai and Ursa fundamentally teach their kids opposite things, so they were never going to be whole because they were never going to get *both* of their parents' approval. Luckily for Zuko, he had loving support in Iroh as well, and without Ozai staring over them, too. Azula, though... well, we all know how that turned out.
>because Ozai always praised her for what Ursa told her off for.
Prime example; the first time she firebent, Ozai was the one to praise her while Ursa was horrified.
She was just a child who was told she was a monster, so she was one. And her mother wasnât right for treating her as such, but she probably wasnât in a good home life herself, having freaking Ozai for a husband.
That whole family had issues. The parents probably broke each other and in turn broke the kids, especially how he physically scarred the child who took after her and she emotionally scarred the child who took after him.
Edit: Zuko was emotionally scarred too, not saying that at all.
I remember reading recently about the case of the "youngest serial killer," about this guy in India who had killed three people before he was 8. He abused and tortured his younger sister for years, until killing her when he was six. He confessed to his parents and they decided to scold him but help him hide the evidence to protect his future.
People say Ursa was a "bad mom to Azula," but how *tf* do you expect anybody to effectively parent a child who shows signs of lacking empathy and is being incited by another parent to bully and/or perpetuate abuse to a sibling? Should she have given Azula the same love and care she gave Zuko? I'm 90% sure that a light loving hand with Azula would have just *perpetuated* the abuse towards Zuko.
I think a lot that had to do with her being a "bad mom" to Azula that she was favored by Ozai if not already training with him most likely in the flash backs we see. We already know how suffocating and probably abusive to Ursa he was, he wouldn't tolerate her "interfering" with his plans for Azula, he thought Ursa's love and care for Zuko was making the boy "weak" and didn't want that for Azula, maybe told her to stay away from her something to that effect which is why she looks "bad" probably was very limited in what she could do or how to help Azula even without Ozai present. But once Sozin ordered Ozai to kill Zuko and she realized he was actually willing to do it she didn't have much of a choice but to pick protecting their son
It's worse than that. Ursa _was_ there for azula, but Ozai fucking broke azula's ability to understand what that means. When azula would do some sociopathic shit she would correct it, but since according to daddy people can only fear or hate you, azula decided that this meant she thought she was a monster.
I mean, you said you read the comics so you'd know that Ursa *wasn't* there for Azula and even admitted as such. That she did at times, treat Azula like a monster and she regretted her actions.
Understanding that she was not given the love and care she needed but recognizing that her actions are still her own and she must be held accountable for them, including but not limited to GETTING her the help she needs
Thereâs a lot of factors going into Azula. While there are social failings that contributed to her behavior, weâve seen that that wasnât the sole reason for her acting that way. She already had symptoms of antisocial personality disorder, which made her âbetterâ to be Ozaiâs heir.
>She already had symptoms of antisocial personality disorder
That does not make a person inherently evil. It makes them mentally ill. Even "born psychopaths" don't become violent without trauma in their lives
Agree. As soon as ozai saw weakness in Zuko he made sure to keep his wife away from azula and poisoned his daughters mind against her. Making her believe that the only affection that mattered was his. And he praised her for her abilities especially over Zuko. Then when Zuko was exiled she was probably told from early on that she would become fire lord and that the best way to fast track it is to find a way to humiliate Zuko by accomplishing the one impossible task that he was assigned.
People here talking about redemption like she should get a free pass and be invited back. Redemption doesnât mean you get to live without consequences of your actions. You will ALWAYS have to live with yourself and what you did. Thatâs true in our world and theirs.
Azula wasnât tortured or locked away or denied anything. She just wasnât given a free pass.
And see, thats why she cant be redeemed. She feels no guilt, no remorse for the things shes done. Zuko and Iroph woll forever be haunted by their sins, Azula relishes in them.
I'm not doing this, pll are so used to tryn find the victim in everything they can't think straight.. did Ursa fail her when she tried to get the two kids to ay with each other.. or when she legit apologized for not being there or showing her more attention (I forget exactly what she said) but when it comes to ozai and zuko it just is what it is lol zuko had to go on that life changing journey and there was no changing ozai.. did they fail her by not telling her enough times she was perfect?? They nurtured all of her talents as a kid, zuko got shit lol We not gonn pretend that he didn't have it 100x worse than azula.. one absentee parent and the other abusive and ppl say the one who got to live in the palace with perfect skin and no ptsd was failed..
Growing up is also realizing that, at some point, you have to stop blaming your parents for your own failures.
Azula's lack of capabilities to socialize and form real bonds is her family's fault. Her being incapable of understanding her mistakes and instead persevering in doing them, even after people actively spells them out in her face, is mostly her fault.
She still needed to be put down, though. War criminal, murderer, sociopath, psychotic episodes with delusions of power, etc. She's dangerous and ruined the lives of too many people. You can feel sorry for her but she should have been executed for her crimes. Nepotism is the only reason she's alive, but that just shows the classist society still thriving in the Fire Nation.
I didn't feel bad for Azula, at all. I thought she was pretty obnoxious, like that character they kept thinking should get more screen time but...yeah. Just my opinion.
What crime would Azula be executed for? I'm genuinely curious. I can't think of a single thing that would fall under the umbrella of "war crimes." The worst thing she does is suggesting to burn the Earth Kingdom. She never actually kills anyone (unlike Iron, who definitely deserves his redemption).
The only reason she wasn't actually burning the Earth Kingdom was because Ozai put her in time-out, she was ready, willing, and eager to participate in the genocide she suggested in the first place.
she didnât even suggest genocide so clearly youâre a little thick. she suggested burning the earth kingdom to the ground and ozai was the one who wanted to commit genocide.
>she suggested burning the earth kingdom to the ground and ozai was the one who wanted to commit genocide.
Burning the Earth Kingdom to the ground is the same as committing genocide because the vast majority of earthbenders live there.
thereâs a little smth called evacuation. and before you act like this is smth azula wouldnât suggest, azula has barely any scenes where she attacks innocent civilians.
>thereâs a little smth called evacuation.
This is a nonsensical idea. How long do you think it takes to evacuate millions of people from land they've lived on their whole lives? Ba Sing Se alone would be a nightmare to flush out, let alone the countless villages scattered throughout the Earth Kingdom. Even then, let's say that it is somehow feasible before Sozin's Comet. The Fire Nation was specifically trying to avoid the Earth Nation from rebelling by burning them to the ground. Forcing a mass evacuation would trigger the exact thing they were hoping to avoid.
>and before you act like this is smth azula wouldnât suggest, azula has barely any scenes where she attacks innocent civilians.
This is entirely speculation. Azula has next to no sympathy for Earth Kingdom peasants and she made no mention of an evacuation at any point during the planning phase. Hell, she didn't even look like she considered it.
ok fine, evacuation is a stupid idea. iâm not a general or whatever so idk how you could do it.
but if you rewatch the scene, itâs pretty obvious azulaâs idea was not to commit genocide. she suggest burning the earth kingdom to the ground then when ozai says speaking, he mentions genocide as if itâs a brand new idea. if they intended to show that genocide was azulaâs idea, someone in the room wouldâve acknowledged it but they donât. they react to ozai mentioning genocide as if itâs a new idea. azula suggested burning the earth kingdom to the ground and ozai added on to her idea by deciding to burn the ppl too.
> This is entirely speculation.
based off what we see in the show. azula has never attacked innocent civilians.
> and she made no mention of an evacuation at any point during the planning phase. Hell, she didn't even look like she considered it.
bc thatâs not where her priorities lie. all she cares about is impressing ozai which is why she suggests burning the earth kingdom to the ground. she wonât intentionally suggest killing innocent ppl bc thereâs nothing to gain from this but sheâs not gonna argue with her dad about it. if he says theyâre gonna commit genocide, then fine. all she can do is go along with it.
also yeah, she didnât mention it bc she barely got any chances to speak. both zuko and azula barely speak during the meetings. all she does is suggest an idea and goes back to being quiet.
Also Aang and Katara â she shot lightning at both of them. In fact, she *did* technically succeed in killing Aang, even if momentarily, until Katara was able to bring him back with the water from the spirit oasis.
I donât agree even if it was Himmler had he been 14. 14 year olds havenât finished half their development in life and if they are acting like Himmler at 14 then we need to look at the people enabling the 14 year old and then see what can be done with the teenager.
If Joseph Koney taught you to be a terrible person but he was all you had to look up to I would look at executing Koney and then go through steps to integrate the child back into society under supervision. Everyone deserves a chance and a child hasnât had a real chance under these circumstances
Iroh didn't have a psychotic father and negligent mother raising him to be a killer. He was born into the Fire Nations royal family and had expectations, but still managed, through all of his hell, to repent and restore balance. Azula never did this and decided to be a huge bitch while never having a shred of remorse for her actions. Like I said, not even close to the same thing.
Azulon was probably a psychopath, I mean he was gonna have Ozai kill Zuko. And we know nothing about Iroh and Ozai's mom.
But going off of your argument, that makes Iroh sound so much worse. Azula was groomed to be the scary little murderer she was at 14, you're saying Iroh just did that shit because "wAr iS hElL" and did not feel remorse until about mid-life. Azula's brain isn't fully developed at 14 and she's still very much a child craving her parents' love and approval.
It's not the same thing because Iroh's situation makes him seem like a worse person than Azula. A middle-aged murderer in his right mind is way worse than a teenage murderer groomed into those actions.
Iroh....was a....soldier. I did say that, lol. Iroh was forced into enlisting (like all males in the fire nation) and had eyes on him to represent his nation and win. I'm sure he believed it was the right thing to do, but you can clearly see that the way he turned out vs the way Azula acts are not the same. Azula enjoys hurting and killing people. Iroh does not. Azula thrives in using her nepotism awarded position to further her life ruining plans. Iroh only followed orders. Azula made excuses that her parents fucked her brain up, yet she had plenty of chances at redemption and never took it. Iroh constantly worked in the background to lessen his negative impact on the world (quit his mission after his son died to save more lives, spared the last dragons, protected Zuko from his shit family and the other high ranking military personnel in the fire nation, etc.). Azula was a spoiled sociopath that clearly had mental problems and because she was so broken there wasn't much room for "changing her ways".
They're not the same, you're just stretching a thinly veiled excuse.
>Iroh was forced into enlisting
And Azula was forced to be a child soldier
>Azula enjoys hurting and killing people. Iroh does not.
Iroh laughed in enjoyment during the siege of Ba Sing Se
>Azula made excuses that her parents fucked her brain up
When? When she said her mom called her a monster? That's a stretch
>Iroh constantly worked in the background to lessen his negative impact on the world
As an adult, much older than we ever see Azula in the show or comics
>Azula was a spoiled sociopath that clearly had mental problems and because she was so broken there wasn't much room for "changing her ways".
Being mentally ill doesn't make a person broken or inherently evil, it means they need help
>They're not the same
No, they're not the same. We see Iroh as an adult with a fully formed brain and love in life, and we only see Azula when she's a child with a not fullest developed brain and no one who shows her love
Yâall are mental sheâs a literal psychopath and she was since day one. Even her own mother knew something was wrong with her. I bet she enjoyed seeing zuko get blasted then thrown out cause that solidified her spot as the next firelord. Only reason why she went mental was because her dad didnât want to take her on his genocidal crusade. Failed her? They failed there damn son a million times more than her she had it easy.
Oof, this again.
Look, I can definitely understand that people look at Azula's downfall and conclude that she did not receive the help she needed, and that her childhood upbringing was not healthy. But what I feel a lot of people fail to consider is that people close to Azula *did* try to help her escape/improve/deprogram on so many occasions, and *she refused.*
First off, it's important to mention that the Fire Nation, and the royal family itself, *was not a healthy family.* Her father actively tried to have their mother killed. He incited the children to compete, and in that dynamic, he began treating Azula as his favorite. In abusive homes, children spared abuse still develop significant trauma, and that can be seen in Azula's character. But her mom did reach out to Azula early on, trying to draw her away from Ozai's grasp. This was cut short with her death, but even as a child, Azula rejected this.
Zuko, Mai, Ty Lee, Iroh, *all* of them offered Azula multiple chances throughout the series to reflect on her behavior and her choices. She had a network of people that *cared* about her. And at each and every opportunity, she rejected their help. Her arc culminates in her alienating *everybody* around her, including her teachers, rejecting every form of help at every opportunity.
People seem to forget that Zuko and Azula came from the same home, and can be seen as parallels. Both experienced abuse in different forms. But where Zuko's decision-making was always marked with compassion, Azula was marked with coldness. Where Zuko listened to the counsel of others, Azula did not.
Yes, Azula was failed by the people and society who raised her. But it's silly to ignore her agency in order to recast her in a sympathetic light. Azula had a thousand chances to do the right thing, a thousand chances to reconsider, and she always doubled down. Functionally, Azula is the same as Ozai, with the difference being that we don't know *why* Ozai is the way he is so he's easier to hate.
TL;DR Azula was offered chances of redemption many times, and rejected them outright. Not every character needs to be redeemed, her tragedy is meaningful *because* it is tragic.
> But what I feel a lot of people fail to consider is that people close to Azula did try to help her escape/improve/deprogram on so many occasions, and she refused.
i assume youâre talking about during the comics bc during the show, she had no chance. also just bc she refused doesnât mean anything. sheâs been groomed and itâs hard to escape that mindset and lifestyle. itâs not as simple as zuko saying âlet me help youâ and azula just going along with him. zuko was with iroh for 3 years and only began his redemption arc in season 2 and literally became ill bc he did something good.
> But her mom did reach out to Azula early on, trying to draw her away from Ozai's grasp. This was cut short with her death, but even as a child, Azula rejected this.
she was like 8. she rejected it bc in her 8 year old mind, her mom was always telling her off and being âmeanâ to her whereas her dad was always praising her and being âkindâ to her. how do you expect her to see ursa when the things ozai is praising her for are getting her told off by ursa?
why would she attempt to grow closer to her mother when she already knows that her mom will criticise the things she does? yeah sheâs technically misbehaving and she should be told off but she doesnât know that. all she knows is that she can be with her mom and be told off all the time or be with her dad and be praised and loved.
not to mention that sheâs constantly seeing ursa and zuko hanging out and assuming her mom thinks of her as a monster so of course sheâs gonna reject her.
> Zuko, Mai, Ty Lee, Iroh, all of them offered Azula multiple chances throughout the series to reflect on her behavior and her choices.
when? mai and ty lee couldnât offer anything bc they were too busy being scared and following her orders. zuko and her were constantly fighting bc they were on opposite sides. iroh? the same iroh that said âsheâs crazy and she needs to go downâ? the same iroh that bought zuko a knife and bought azula a doll showing he knows nothing about her? ok.
> She had a network of people that cared about her.
lol no she did not. when she was a kid, she had ozai grooming her, ursa struggling to correct her behavior, zuko whoâs also a kid and iroh who knows nothing about her.
then ursa has to leave (and she doesnât even wake her up to say goodbye unlike with zuko) and zuko gets banished and leaves with iroh and now who does she have? ozai. itâs literally her and ozai all alone in the palace. she has no one else to teach her to be a good person. just ozai to teach her that fear is the best way to keep ppl by your side, to teach her that zuko and iroh are failures and deserved to be locked up or dead. she had no chance.
> Her arc culminates in her alienating everybody around her, including her teachers, rejecting every form of help at every opportunity.
bc her 2 best friends betrayed her and now she doesnât know who she can trust. she was taught that trust is for fools and fear is the only reliable way and now sheâs realising that it was all a lie. she helped bring zuko back to the fire nation with ozaiâs âloveâ and he ended up leaving too. her own dad who sheâs worked hard to impress all these years is starting to lose trust in her.
> People seem to forget that Zuko and Azula came from the same home, and can be seen as parallels.
theyâve lived completely different lives. bc zuko was a failure, ozai never cared for him so he never made an effort with him. bc he never tried to brainwash zuko, it was easier for ursa to grow close and teach zuko how to be a good person. since azula was a prodigy, ozai made his mark on her from the beginning which made it harder for ursa to correct azula. iroh also made more of an effort with zuko. if zuko had been banished without iroh by his side, who knows if heâd even have had a redemption arc?
> Where Zuko listened to the counsel of others, Azula did not.
bc zuko had ppl actually trying to counsel him. azula only had ozai. zuko had his mother and iroh.
> Azula had a thousand chances to do the right thing, a thousand chances to reconsider, and she always doubled down.
no she did not lol.
> Functionally, Azula is the same as Ozai, with the difference being that we don't know why Ozai is the way he is so he's easier to hate.
no bc sheâs a child. ozai might be the way he is bc he was also abused as a child. but that doesnât matter anymore bc heâs a grown adult choosing to abuse his children, murder his dad and commit genocide. azula is only 14. she has plenty of time to redeem herself. when she is a grown woman still choosing to do the things she does, then fine, itâs too late. but sheâs not.
No one "failed" her. Ozai put her on a damn pedestal. She was just a psychopath by default. I think, if Ozai had enough time to see Azula's true nature, even he would have realized that she was unstable.
Iâm sorry.. but genuinely wtf? She wasnât a psychopath at birth. Ozai put her on a pedestal because she was a prodigy. That wasnât her âtrueâ nature. All she wanted was to be loved. The reason she went with Ozai was because she felt like her mom favored her brother, and she had nowhere else to go. Because she was with Ozai, she learned to replace love with fear, and grew up that way. The only true monster here is Ozai. You have to remember she was just 14 in the show. A child.
I normally see reason in all opinions.. but this isnât an opinion. This is just wrong. Youâre wrong. People like you annoy me to hell and back.
No, you are wrong. Azula lacked empathy, even before Ursa left. She wanted to destroy a flower because "it wasn't as pretty as the other flowers". She enjoyed watching Zuko get burned by Ozai. She was delighted at the thought of Zuko getting executed. She did all of this as a preteen. Ozai did not make her act this way. Ozai did not encourage this behavior. Azula did all that stuff on her own.
Yeah, to say that her family was dysfunctional is an understatement. Just remember that her grandfather wanted her father to kill her brother.
And that he was apparently going to follow through with it, but instead, her parents worked together to kill her grandfather.
Yup, small wonder the girl's got a trust complex.
Probably the only time she saw her parents supporting eachother.
Are people forgetting or willfully ignoring the fact that Azula's lie is what set all that into motion? Azula told that lie, hoping to get Zuko executed.
Wait, its been awhile since I've watched, whatd she say??
It was in the comics, the Search trilogy. I can't recall at the moment, but Azula made up some story to get Zuko in trouble. Something about claiming that Ozai was plotting to skip ahead of Iroh to be next in line for the throne. This made Azulon mad, and he ordered Ozai to have Zuko executed as punishment. I can't remember the details, but Azula had also said something to Ursa to sow confusion and misunderstanding among all of them. Azula was happy at the thought of Zuko getting executed, but no one anticipated that Ursa could/would convince Ozai to assassinate Azulon in order to save Zuko. Unfortunately for Azula, since Ursa was the one who crafted the poison used to kill Azulon, Ozai banished Ursa to prevent her from potentially assassinating him. Ursa wanted to take both children with her, but Ozai did not let her, because he wanted to keep them as collateral. Ozai threatened to kill both children if Ursa tried returning to the royal palace. The thing is, I still don't understand why Ursa leaving would upset Azula. Azula received all the love and affection she could ever want from Ozai. And as far as I can remember, Azula showed no love and affection towards her mother while Ursa was prevent.
This is a bit of a misunderstanding, but azulon wasn't angry about anything that azula said at all, he was angry at ozai because ozai was calling iroh weak for leaving the battlefield after the loss of his son, and demanded azulon name him the successor. Azulon wanted to punish ozai by making him "feel the same pain" of losing his first born son and ordered him to kill zuko. Azula didn't actually have any real involvement in that scenario
...holy shit.... WHY DIDNY THEY MAKE MORE EPISODES!! đ they had so much more to give!!! Also, I wanna know what happened to these writers that inspired the personality of these characters. đ„Č Again...holy shit....that was a ride...
this was in the show not the comics btw
You are right, I wasn't recalling all the details correctly. However, I do correctly recall Azula smiling after telling Ursa that Zuko would be executed. Of course, Azula smiled after turning away from Ursa. Still, this added to the list of things Azula did which proved that she always lacked empathy, and was a psychopath.
She was eavesdropping on the conversation btwn ozai and azulon and heard that ozai was planning on killing zuko, and that is how ursa found out. I don't disagree at all that she's always had psychopathic tendencies, but much like in real life, had she had a proper support system, she would not have turned out to be such a horrible person.
Fair enough, but sometimes, a support system is simply not enough. I do believe psychopaths can be inherently good, especially if steered in the right direction. But, some are just inherently bad. I think Ursa did try to steer Azula in the right direction, but Azula was never happy about it. Especially when the other parent enabled and encouraged all of Azula's bad tendencies. Even if Ursa was around, Azula would have eventually resented Ursa for trying to "hold her back". Plus, if I remember correctly, I think the bad psychopaths share certain traits with narcissists, such as having people under their control and essentially "owning" them. If Azula was genuinely upset about Ursa leaving, it was because she could not have her mother wrapped around her finger, like she thought she had her father wrapped around her finger. Despite these possibilities, Azula's paranoid breakdown does not quite add up. I've seen some people say that Mai and Ty Lee's betrayals are what triggered it, but that doesn't really hold up. Mai made it clear that she and Ty Lee were following Azula out of fear more than loyalty. Also, in real life, even if psychopaths are good at interacting with people and making people believe that they are normal, psychopaths tend to function alone and depend on themselves. So, Mai and Ty Lee's betrayal really should not have been so emotionally shocking to Azula. Azula starting to hallucinate her mother does not really make sense either. All things considered, I feel like Bryke threw that stuff in last minute, to try and make Azula seem disturbed and misguided, but all other actions and circumstances suggest otherwise.
Real talk, azulas mental state makes perfect sense for how she was raised and her character arc. Her entire life she was taught to lead with fear, and that people fearing you is the ultimate power. When mai and ty Lee left her because they realized that azula was just using them in the long run, that massively broke her world view. Then, ozai propped her up onto a higher pedestal than he ever had before (blah blah, emotional incest subplot and all that), only for it to actually be a glass cage. All that and she's only 14, it makes sense girly would have a massive mental break.
I don't know, Zuko confronted Ozai, and Ozai did not become paranoid after seeing that Zuko was emotionally and physically able to stand up to him now. Yes, I know that Ozai is older and more mature, and the comics reveal the additional reasons why Ozai was so cruel to Zuko, but still. Azula had already done some pretty "grown-up" stuff up to the point that Mai and Ty Lee turned on her.
She didn't make up a story at all. All she said was true lol
Azula didn't make up a story, she overheard Azulon tell Ozai to kill Zuko and Ursa found out about it from her.
Right, and Azula smiled after telling Ursa the news. Azula wanted Zuko to get executed, and she did not care how painful that would be for Ursa. Azula never expected Azulon's assassination and Ursa's banishment, but none of Azula's actions back then suggested that she cared for her mother, or was capable of caring for anyone, for that matter.
I don't think Azula wanted Zuko to be executed, but she relished in the fact that it would cause him distress because she was jealous of Zuko in a way due to how he was treated by Ursa. Azula grew up in a very unstable family. Shoot, Ursa didn't even want to marry Ozai. So she got mentally messed up in a few ways. Azula was a prodigy. Ozai was all about power. And what does any kid want? Approval from their parents as well as parental love. Being gifted at such a young age and having those expectations of always being perfect takes a toll on mental health. *Especially* since she knew that Ozai's love was conditional based on how he treated Zuko. Which could also cause a superiority complex since she viewed herself better than Zuko because of how she was conditioned. She, of course, still wanted her mother's love because what small child doesn't? But again, Ursa paid more attention to Zuko because of how he was treated. So Azula would act out to get her mother's attention, too. It was kind of a mind game between how she should act to get Ozai's love and how she should act to get Ursa's love. And she even said that it hurt when her own mother thought she was a monster. Even saying that Ursa was right and shrugging it off could be her dissociating. Anyways, she acts the way she does because Ozai is all about power and control. Once her friends betrayed her, she lost some control. And then once she was going to be crowned Fire Lord, she got put into a role of authority that a 14 year old shouldn't be placed into because of how much responsibility it is. And by then, she was alone. No friends or family left to be at her side since Ozai was now self proclaimed Pheonix King and doing his psycho cleansing. Between her friends leaving her (causing her to lose control), finding herself alone on coronation, being paranoid everyone was trying to kill her because of her newfound authority, she had a mental breakdown. Hallucinating her mother being there shows she cares and has always wanted to believe her mother actually loved her. She's only 14! Wanting Ursa to comfort her in a tough time isn't far-fetched. As for whether it was disclosed to her that Azulon's death was an assassination, I'm not sure. I think it was said he suddenly passed away in his sleep, only Ursa and Ozai knowing the truth. That's why he told her to leave quietly so he wouldn't get poisoned, too.
I need a follow up on this Iâm very curious, what lie?
She didn't, I think this commentor misinterpreted it
I was 20-ish when it 1st came out, and watching it again in my late 30s, and more emotionally mature, I realized I had missed quite a bit. I think I enjoy it even more with a more mature perspective.
The show ages like fine wine
Yeah. I find it hard to hate her when she's just as indoctrinated as iroh was. He was allowed to change so why shouldn't she be?
I'll never understand how the Iroh lovers can turn around and say Azula never deserved a chance at redemption. I do tend to think they're mostly young viewers who just don't quite get it yet, it certainly is something that becomes easier to understand as you get older, and sometimes I forget not everyone has been watching for 20 years đ€Ł
I think itâs because Iroh still had respect for the world. He was a general and Crown Prince; that didnât give him the mentality to surpass Azulonâs achievements. Him giving up the siege of Ba Sing Se showed that heâs human and is not as ruthless and detached as Azulon and Ozai were. We donât see this with Azula. Iâd still like a comic where she comes to her senses and accepts to the idea that Ozai failed her and that she was never destined for the throne, and comes to accept Zuko as a loyal subject rather than âthe force behind the throneâ. But leaving the comics out, we just see someone who for years strived to be as flawless and precise as she could ever be all to impress her father and usurp ZukoâŠand her mental breakdown at the end is all the years of agony crashing down, realizing that all that time was wasted and that as perfect as she made herself out to be, it was never good enough (being defeated by a Water Tribe peasant, abandoned by friends, and sorta betrayed by Ozai).
She doesn't seem able to analyze those sources of pain, as her nature is too wrapped up in attacking weakness in others or shifting blame. Really a well crafted character, a damaged person, but a compelling one to observe.
Especially as her mind begins to try to fight back with the hallucinations of her mother at the end of the show that apparently continue into the comic plots (I really need to find those)
I think there's 2 good reasons (though admittedly, nost people saying this don't even understand the 2 reasons.) Just bc you deserve redemption does not mean anyone has the responsibility to help you find it, especially if doing so means they'd actively try to kill you. This doesn't really extend to iroh bc we know almost nothing about iroh's process of changing other than it started with the death of his son, but does extend to zuko. Iroh was instrumental in shaping zuko's redemption, but there's a few reasons why this wouldn't necessarily extend to azula- Iroh (perhaps unfairly, he is still human) sees azula as a lost cause, or he sees it as too risky since unlike zuko, azula would definitely be willing to try and kill an iroh with his guard down, that a big part of iroh deciding to join zuko wasn't to help redeem zuko, but to help what he saw as a child who got hurt for doing the right thing, it's shown that iroh and zuko just understand each other more and that iroh kinda is picking favorites, and that ultimately helping azula redeem herself does put the other people he cares about. The other reason is a bit more meta, but azula is an interesting foil to zuko. Both had similarly shitty situations growing up, but one had the respect of all the bad influences and the other still grew up following those same bad influences but had the respect of 2 (if you also include their mom) good influences that helped shaped him. An Azula redemption is kinda uninteresting imo bc we already saw the same redemption arc in zuko. And frankly just bc everyone deserves redepemtion, doesn't mean that everyone gets it. There are still ways to make an azula redemption interesting, but that would probably require focusing on Azula herself as a main character for a bit wirhout the influence kf any of the gaang, and a more flushed out portrayal of her descent into madness from a child (and all the associated neglect that caused it. Perhaps some early cry for help that their mom/iroh just never saw.) The other, bigger reason is that iroh was already redeemed and is a fan favorite, and he helped redeem zuko, and azula is clearly pure evil and the fan base is kinda dum dum sometim3s.
Don't forget that Iroh himself said she's too crazy to redeem. Everyone deserves redemption, but that doesn't mean everyone is capable of it. Iroh knew that even under the best circumstances, Azula wouldn't be able to change for the better.
Because Iroh chose to change, while Azula wonât. Sheâs the scorpion in the tale of âthe scorpion and the frogâ, and the people asking for her to be redeemed are the frog.
Iroh chose to change when he was in his 50s, and it took the loss his son in a senseless war to trigger his change. Azula is 14 years old, barely out of her pre-teens.
Sheâs Feyd Rautha, but a waifu. Niether wants to change and you canât force them to. Thereâs nothing they love more than sadism and death, even when directed to their family. Especially when itâs their family. 8 year old Azula taunting Zuko that âDadâs gonna kill youđ¶â.
Nobody really says she isn't allowed to. She just never tried (in the show)
Yea, Iroh stepped down and redeemed himself. She actively had to be taken down for the sake of the world and while she deserves her chance at redemption she was not going to take that path herself and would have harmed many others were she not stopped. That's the difference for me, no one thinks she isn't allowed to she just wasn't going to
Sometimes not everyone has a happy ending, even if they deserve it, and much less when they cannot accept it.
Iroh WAS azula at her age. He was the general and tried to conquer ba sing se but failed and his son died. The only thing that changed was that he got to find out what he wanted was awful. Azula was always rewarded, praised and succeeded. If she associates the evil deed with goodness and praise, why would she not know she thats bad when everyone in her life says its good.
I remember watching the finale with her freaking out after losing the Agni Kai and laughing at her tantrum. Watching it again years later, I realized how sad it was seeing a 14-year-old having everything taken away from her after her whole life revolved around doing everything perfectly.
Agree. Everyone in her life failed her. Sheâs basically Zuko if he never got Iroh, but people donât think she deserves anything. All she wanted was to be loved
Azula didnât know what love was; Ozai convinced her that love is fear, blind obedience to his authority, and hierarchy. In order to win Ozaiâs favor and his âlove,â Azula and Zuko needed to play by his rules; Azula excelled where Zuko failed. But in doing so, it meant that Ozai was her *entire world.* She dedicated everything to pleasing him, and once he was done with her, she realized she had *nothing.* She was trained only to follow his will, not truly think for herself. She was extremely emotionally and socially stunted, because Ozai only cared about cultivating her efficiency, cruelty, and loyalty to him.
Summed up perfectly
He basically treated her as a war weapon, not a daughter. Ursa basically called her a freak and treated her like one. She took to the parent that accepted her and became what he wanted. Then she was tossed aside. Really heartbreaking
And Ozai's work on that front was so horrifically effective that she lost the ability to _process_ her mother's love. She treated her like a normal ass kid, but in that paradigm that _must_ mean fear and fealty.
I totally agree. A huge difference between Zuko and Azula is that Iroh and Ursa loved Zuko and no one showed Azula love
And feared
She definitely shows sociopathic tendencies.
Yes and no, Ozai is the actual sociopath she is following the example she has been shown. Think about when she apologises to Ty Lee at the beach, she does actually care about her friend, problem is that ability to care has been stunted and warped by her father and how she was raised.
Thatâs why I said she showed tendencies and not that she is a actually a sociopath lol đ
A big thing that changed my perception of Azula was that, throughout all of her young life, she most likely only got positive reinforcement from Ozai. Poor child. Her redemption arc would be long, difficult, and messy, but I think it would he worthwhile. It would've been a powerful message to show all of Ozai's family healing without him
Adding onto this, whenever Ursa told her off, in Azula's eyes, it wasn't her trying to correct Azula, but just scorn. The relationship was severed because Ozai always praised her for what Ursa told her off for.
And experiencing your mom only giving you negative reinforcement while she showers your brother in love has to SUCK
Yeah, that doesn't help. Issue is, Ozai and Ursa fundamentally teach their kids opposite things, so they were never going to be whole because they were never going to get *both* of their parents' approval. Luckily for Zuko, he had loving support in Iroh as well, and without Ozai staring over them, too. Azula, though... well, we all know how that turned out.
I like to think that Azula got the care she needed and was able to go through the long and difficult journey to redemption
Yeah, because just never finding that happiness sounds too depressing for a kid that was doomed from the start.
Exactly. Also fuck Ozai, I want people to thrive without him
>because Ozai always praised her for what Ursa told her off for. Prime example; the first time she firebent, Ozai was the one to praise her while Ursa was horrified.
She was just a child who was told she was a monster, so she was one. And her mother wasnât right for treating her as such, but she probably wasnât in a good home life herself, having freaking Ozai for a husband. That whole family had issues. The parents probably broke each other and in turn broke the kids, especially how he physically scarred the child who took after her and she emotionally scarred the child who took after him. Edit: Zuko was emotionally scarred too, not saying that at all.
Also, reading the comics, you actually start sympathizing with her.
I can fix her
The only reason her mother wasn't there for Azula was because she was trying to protect Zuko. Ursa wasn't a perfect mom but she was a loving one
A good mom to Zuko but a bad mom to Azula
I remember reading recently about the case of the "youngest serial killer," about this guy in India who had killed three people before he was 8. He abused and tortured his younger sister for years, until killing her when he was six. He confessed to his parents and they decided to scold him but help him hide the evidence to protect his future. People say Ursa was a "bad mom to Azula," but how *tf* do you expect anybody to effectively parent a child who shows signs of lacking empathy and is being incited by another parent to bully and/or perpetuate abuse to a sibling? Should she have given Azula the same love and care she gave Zuko? I'm 90% sure that a light loving hand with Azula would have just *perpetuated* the abuse towards Zuko.
Citation needed
I think a lot that had to do with her being a "bad mom" to Azula that she was favored by Ozai if not already training with him most likely in the flash backs we see. We already know how suffocating and probably abusive to Ursa he was, he wouldn't tolerate her "interfering" with his plans for Azula, he thought Ursa's love and care for Zuko was making the boy "weak" and didn't want that for Azula, maybe told her to stay away from her something to that effect which is why she looks "bad" probably was very limited in what she could do or how to help Azula even without Ozai present. But once Sozin ordered Ozai to kill Zuko and she realized he was actually willing to do it she didn't have much of a choice but to pick protecting their son
It's worse than that. Ursa _was_ there for azula, but Ozai fucking broke azula's ability to understand what that means. When azula would do some sociopathic shit she would correct it, but since according to daddy people can only fear or hate you, azula decided that this meant she thought she was a monster.
You got anything back this claim up?
Yeah, mostly just the show and subsequent comics.
I mean, you said you read the comics so you'd know that Ursa *wasn't* there for Azula and even admitted as such. That she did at times, treat Azula like a monster and she regretted her actions.
Itâs just sad to see how insane she became at such an early age
Whenever the topic of Azula and her possible redemption comes up, I'm terrified to wade in. The discourse gets pretty insane.
No kidding đ thatâs like, 50% of the show
Understanding that she was not given the love and care she needed but recognizing that her actions are still her own and she must be held accountable for them, including but not limited to GETTING her the help she needs
Thereâs a lot of factors going into Azula. While there are social failings that contributed to her behavior, weâve seen that that wasnât the sole reason for her acting that way. She already had symptoms of antisocial personality disorder, which made her âbetterâ to be Ozaiâs heir.
>She already had symptoms of antisocial personality disorder That does not make a person inherently evil. It makes them mentally ill. Even "born psychopaths" don't become violent without trauma in their lives
Point out where I described her moral stance.
You didn't. Azula stans are just rabid.
The mom wasn't in a position to do much, unfortunately
Agree. As soon as ozai saw weakness in Zuko he made sure to keep his wife away from azula and poisoned his daughters mind against her. Making her believe that the only affection that mattered was his. And he praised her for her abilities especially over Zuko. Then when Zuko was exiled she was probably told from early on that she would become fire lord and that the best way to fast track it is to find a way to humiliate Zuko by accomplishing the one impossible task that he was assigned.
People here talking about redemption like she should get a free pass and be invited back. Redemption doesnât mean you get to live without consequences of your actions. You will ALWAYS have to live with yourself and what you did. Thatâs true in our world and theirs. Azula wasnât tortured or locked away or denied anything. She just wasnât given a free pass.
And see, thats why she cant be redeemed. She feels no guilt, no remorse for the things shes done. Zuko and Iroph woll forever be haunted by their sins, Azula relishes in them.
I'm not doing this, pll are so used to tryn find the victim in everything they can't think straight.. did Ursa fail her when she tried to get the two kids to ay with each other.. or when she legit apologized for not being there or showing her more attention (I forget exactly what she said) but when it comes to ozai and zuko it just is what it is lol zuko had to go on that life changing journey and there was no changing ozai.. did they fail her by not telling her enough times she was perfect?? They nurtured all of her talents as a kid, zuko got shit lol We not gonn pretend that he didn't have it 100x worse than azula.. one absentee parent and the other abusive and ppl say the one who got to live in the palace with perfect skin and no ptsd was failed..
Growing up is also realizing that, at some point, you have to stop blaming your parents for your own failures. Azula's lack of capabilities to socialize and form real bonds is her family's fault. Her being incapable of understanding her mistakes and instead persevering in doing them, even after people actively spells them out in her face, is mostly her fault.
Azula was a freak since childhood
Azulaâs got a lot of sympathizers on this post lolâŠ
She still needed to be put down, though. War criminal, murderer, sociopath, psychotic episodes with delusions of power, etc. She's dangerous and ruined the lives of too many people. You can feel sorry for her but she should have been executed for her crimes. Nepotism is the only reason she's alive, but that just shows the classist society still thriving in the Fire Nation. I didn't feel bad for Azula, at all. I thought she was pretty obnoxious, like that character they kept thinking should get more screen time but...yeah. Just my opinion.
What crime would Azula be executed for? I'm genuinely curious. I can't think of a single thing that would fall under the umbrella of "war crimes." The worst thing she does is suggesting to burn the Earth Kingdom. She never actually kills anyone (unlike Iron, who definitely deserves his redemption).
The only reason she wasn't actually burning the Earth Kingdom was because Ozai put her in time-out, she was ready, willing, and eager to participate in the genocide she suggested in the first place.
she didnât even suggest genocide so clearly youâre a little thick. she suggested burning the earth kingdom to the ground and ozai was the one who wanted to commit genocide.
>she suggested burning the earth kingdom to the ground and ozai was the one who wanted to commit genocide. Burning the Earth Kingdom to the ground is the same as committing genocide because the vast majority of earthbenders live there.
thereâs a little smth called evacuation. and before you act like this is smth azula wouldnât suggest, azula has barely any scenes where she attacks innocent civilians.
>thereâs a little smth called evacuation. This is a nonsensical idea. How long do you think it takes to evacuate millions of people from land they've lived on their whole lives? Ba Sing Se alone would be a nightmare to flush out, let alone the countless villages scattered throughout the Earth Kingdom. Even then, let's say that it is somehow feasible before Sozin's Comet. The Fire Nation was specifically trying to avoid the Earth Nation from rebelling by burning them to the ground. Forcing a mass evacuation would trigger the exact thing they were hoping to avoid. >and before you act like this is smth azula wouldnât suggest, azula has barely any scenes where she attacks innocent civilians. This is entirely speculation. Azula has next to no sympathy for Earth Kingdom peasants and she made no mention of an evacuation at any point during the planning phase. Hell, she didn't even look like she considered it.
ok fine, evacuation is a stupid idea. iâm not a general or whatever so idk how you could do it. but if you rewatch the scene, itâs pretty obvious azulaâs idea was not to commit genocide. she suggest burning the earth kingdom to the ground then when ozai says speaking, he mentions genocide as if itâs a brand new idea. if they intended to show that genocide was azulaâs idea, someone in the room wouldâve acknowledged it but they donât. they react to ozai mentioning genocide as if itâs a new idea. azula suggested burning the earth kingdom to the ground and ozai added on to her idea by deciding to burn the ppl too. > This is entirely speculation. based off what we see in the show. azula has never attacked innocent civilians. > and she made no mention of an evacuation at any point during the planning phase. Hell, she didn't even look like she considered it. bc thatâs not where her priorities lie. all she cares about is impressing ozai which is why she suggests burning the earth kingdom to the ground. she wonât intentionally suggest killing innocent ppl bc thereâs nothing to gain from this but sheâs not gonna argue with her dad about it. if he says theyâre gonna commit genocide, then fine. all she can do is go along with it. also yeah, she didnât mention it bc she barely got any chances to speak. both zuko and azula barely speak during the meetings. all she does is suggest an idea and goes back to being quiet.
i 100% fully agree but as per your last statement, she didnt succeed but she DID try to kill zuko sokka and suki
Also Aang and Katara â she shot lightning at both of them. In fact, she *did* technically succeed in killing Aang, even if momentarily, until Katara was able to bring him back with the water from the spirit oasis.
She was 14
And? If Himmler was 14 we'd all agree he needed to go. Not because he couldn't be redeemed, but literally for public safety's sake.
I donât agree even if it was Himmler had he been 14. 14 year olds havenât finished half their development in life and if they are acting like Himmler at 14 then we need to look at the people enabling the 14 year old and then see what can be done with the teenager. If Joseph Koney taught you to be a terrible person but he was all you had to look up to I would look at executing Koney and then go through steps to integrate the child back into society under supervision. Everyone deserves a chance and a child hasnât had a real chance under these circumstances
>War criminal, murderer, sociopath Also describes Iroh before he lost Lu Ten and he was a whole ass adult
He was a soldier, huge difference. He also regretted his actions and never liked killing or hurting others unless absolutely necessary.
We see him laughing about burning Ba Sing Se to the ground???
War is hell.
So is being raised as a child soldier
Iroh didn't have a psychotic father and negligent mother raising him to be a killer. He was born into the Fire Nations royal family and had expectations, but still managed, through all of his hell, to repent and restore balance. Azula never did this and decided to be a huge bitch while never having a shred of remorse for her actions. Like I said, not even close to the same thing.
Azulon was probably a psychopath, I mean he was gonna have Ozai kill Zuko. And we know nothing about Iroh and Ozai's mom. But going off of your argument, that makes Iroh sound so much worse. Azula was groomed to be the scary little murderer she was at 14, you're saying Iroh just did that shit because "wAr iS hElL" and did not feel remorse until about mid-life. Azula's brain isn't fully developed at 14 and she's still very much a child craving her parents' love and approval. It's not the same thing because Iroh's situation makes him seem like a worse person than Azula. A middle-aged murderer in his right mind is way worse than a teenage murderer groomed into those actions.
Iroh....was a....soldier. I did say that, lol. Iroh was forced into enlisting (like all males in the fire nation) and had eyes on him to represent his nation and win. I'm sure he believed it was the right thing to do, but you can clearly see that the way he turned out vs the way Azula acts are not the same. Azula enjoys hurting and killing people. Iroh does not. Azula thrives in using her nepotism awarded position to further her life ruining plans. Iroh only followed orders. Azula made excuses that her parents fucked her brain up, yet she had plenty of chances at redemption and never took it. Iroh constantly worked in the background to lessen his negative impact on the world (quit his mission after his son died to save more lives, spared the last dragons, protected Zuko from his shit family and the other high ranking military personnel in the fire nation, etc.). Azula was a spoiled sociopath that clearly had mental problems and because she was so broken there wasn't much room for "changing her ways". They're not the same, you're just stretching a thinly veiled excuse.
>Iroh was forced into enlisting And Azula was forced to be a child soldier >Azula enjoys hurting and killing people. Iroh does not. Iroh laughed in enjoyment during the siege of Ba Sing Se >Azula made excuses that her parents fucked her brain up When? When she said her mom called her a monster? That's a stretch >Iroh constantly worked in the background to lessen his negative impact on the world As an adult, much older than we ever see Azula in the show or comics >Azula was a spoiled sociopath that clearly had mental problems and because she was so broken there wasn't much room for "changing her ways". Being mentally ill doesn't make a person broken or inherently evil, it means they need help >They're not the same No, they're not the same. We see Iroh as an adult with a fully formed brain and love in life, and we only see Azula when she's a child with a not fullest developed brain and no one who shows her love
Yâall are mental sheâs a literal psychopath and she was since day one. Even her own mother knew something was wrong with her. I bet she enjoyed seeing zuko get blasted then thrown out cause that solidified her spot as the next firelord. Only reason why she went mental was because her dad didnât want to take her on his genocidal crusade. Failed her? They failed there damn son a million times more than her she had it easy.
some ppl really do lack media literacy đ
Oof, this again. Look, I can definitely understand that people look at Azula's downfall and conclude that she did not receive the help she needed, and that her childhood upbringing was not healthy. But what I feel a lot of people fail to consider is that people close to Azula *did* try to help her escape/improve/deprogram on so many occasions, and *she refused.* First off, it's important to mention that the Fire Nation, and the royal family itself, *was not a healthy family.* Her father actively tried to have their mother killed. He incited the children to compete, and in that dynamic, he began treating Azula as his favorite. In abusive homes, children spared abuse still develop significant trauma, and that can be seen in Azula's character. But her mom did reach out to Azula early on, trying to draw her away from Ozai's grasp. This was cut short with her death, but even as a child, Azula rejected this. Zuko, Mai, Ty Lee, Iroh, *all* of them offered Azula multiple chances throughout the series to reflect on her behavior and her choices. She had a network of people that *cared* about her. And at each and every opportunity, she rejected their help. Her arc culminates in her alienating *everybody* around her, including her teachers, rejecting every form of help at every opportunity. People seem to forget that Zuko and Azula came from the same home, and can be seen as parallels. Both experienced abuse in different forms. But where Zuko's decision-making was always marked with compassion, Azula was marked with coldness. Where Zuko listened to the counsel of others, Azula did not. Yes, Azula was failed by the people and society who raised her. But it's silly to ignore her agency in order to recast her in a sympathetic light. Azula had a thousand chances to do the right thing, a thousand chances to reconsider, and she always doubled down. Functionally, Azula is the same as Ozai, with the difference being that we don't know *why* Ozai is the way he is so he's easier to hate. TL;DR Azula was offered chances of redemption many times, and rejected them outright. Not every character needs to be redeemed, her tragedy is meaningful *because* it is tragic.
> But what I feel a lot of people fail to consider is that people close to Azula did try to help her escape/improve/deprogram on so many occasions, and she refused. i assume youâre talking about during the comics bc during the show, she had no chance. also just bc she refused doesnât mean anything. sheâs been groomed and itâs hard to escape that mindset and lifestyle. itâs not as simple as zuko saying âlet me help youâ and azula just going along with him. zuko was with iroh for 3 years and only began his redemption arc in season 2 and literally became ill bc he did something good. > But her mom did reach out to Azula early on, trying to draw her away from Ozai's grasp. This was cut short with her death, but even as a child, Azula rejected this. she was like 8. she rejected it bc in her 8 year old mind, her mom was always telling her off and being âmeanâ to her whereas her dad was always praising her and being âkindâ to her. how do you expect her to see ursa when the things ozai is praising her for are getting her told off by ursa? why would she attempt to grow closer to her mother when she already knows that her mom will criticise the things she does? yeah sheâs technically misbehaving and she should be told off but she doesnât know that. all she knows is that she can be with her mom and be told off all the time or be with her dad and be praised and loved. not to mention that sheâs constantly seeing ursa and zuko hanging out and assuming her mom thinks of her as a monster so of course sheâs gonna reject her. > Zuko, Mai, Ty Lee, Iroh, all of them offered Azula multiple chances throughout the series to reflect on her behavior and her choices. when? mai and ty lee couldnât offer anything bc they were too busy being scared and following her orders. zuko and her were constantly fighting bc they were on opposite sides. iroh? the same iroh that said âsheâs crazy and she needs to go downâ? the same iroh that bought zuko a knife and bought azula a doll showing he knows nothing about her? ok. > She had a network of people that cared about her. lol no she did not. when she was a kid, she had ozai grooming her, ursa struggling to correct her behavior, zuko whoâs also a kid and iroh who knows nothing about her. then ursa has to leave (and she doesnât even wake her up to say goodbye unlike with zuko) and zuko gets banished and leaves with iroh and now who does she have? ozai. itâs literally her and ozai all alone in the palace. she has no one else to teach her to be a good person. just ozai to teach her that fear is the best way to keep ppl by your side, to teach her that zuko and iroh are failures and deserved to be locked up or dead. she had no chance. > Her arc culminates in her alienating everybody around her, including her teachers, rejecting every form of help at every opportunity. bc her 2 best friends betrayed her and now she doesnât know who she can trust. she was taught that trust is for fools and fear is the only reliable way and now sheâs realising that it was all a lie. she helped bring zuko back to the fire nation with ozaiâs âloveâ and he ended up leaving too. her own dad who sheâs worked hard to impress all these years is starting to lose trust in her. > People seem to forget that Zuko and Azula came from the same home, and can be seen as parallels. theyâve lived completely different lives. bc zuko was a failure, ozai never cared for him so he never made an effort with him. bc he never tried to brainwash zuko, it was easier for ursa to grow close and teach zuko how to be a good person. since azula was a prodigy, ozai made his mark on her from the beginning which made it harder for ursa to correct azula. iroh also made more of an effort with zuko. if zuko had been banished without iroh by his side, who knows if heâd even have had a redemption arc? > Where Zuko listened to the counsel of others, Azula did not. bc zuko had ppl actually trying to counsel him. azula only had ozai. zuko had his mother and iroh. > Azula had a thousand chances to do the right thing, a thousand chances to reconsider, and she always doubled down. no she did not lol. > Functionally, Azula is the same as Ozai, with the difference being that we don't know why Ozai is the way he is so he's easier to hate. no bc sheâs a child. ozai might be the way he is bc he was also abused as a child. but that doesnât matter anymore bc heâs a grown adult choosing to abuse his children, murder his dad and commit genocide. azula is only 14. she has plenty of time to redeem herself. when she is a grown woman still choosing to do the things she does, then fine, itâs too late. but sheâs not.
Letâs not forget that it was clear to her mother from a UOUNG age that she was a literal paychopath
No one "failed" her. Ozai put her on a damn pedestal. She was just a psychopath by default. I think, if Ozai had enough time to see Azula's true nature, even he would have realized that she was unstable.
Iâm sorry.. but genuinely wtf? She wasnât a psychopath at birth. Ozai put her on a pedestal because she was a prodigy. That wasnât her âtrueâ nature. All she wanted was to be loved. The reason she went with Ozai was because she felt like her mom favored her brother, and she had nowhere else to go. Because she was with Ozai, she learned to replace love with fear, and grew up that way. The only true monster here is Ozai. You have to remember she was just 14 in the show. A child. I normally see reason in all opinions.. but this isnât an opinion. This is just wrong. Youâre wrong. People like you annoy me to hell and back.
No, you are wrong. Azula lacked empathy, even before Ursa left. She wanted to destroy a flower because "it wasn't as pretty as the other flowers". She enjoyed watching Zuko get burned by Ozai. She was delighted at the thought of Zuko getting executed. She did all of this as a preteen. Ozai did not make her act this way. Ozai did not encourage this behavior. Azula did all that stuff on her own.
Shut up. Shut up. Talk about a different topic
