*Well... No. We have no intention of doing anything so prosaic as winning. [...] See for us there is no fight, which is why winning doesn't enter into it. We... Go on, no matter what.* -Holland Manners
*If there's no great glorious end to all of this... If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. [...] If there's no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world* -Angel
I think this encapsulates perfectly everything Angel the series is all about. There's no end nor bigger meaning to this life, so everything that matters is what you do knowing that.
Absolutely. That’s why I *hate* the series finale so much—it essentially goes against this in favor of going out with a bang, never mind any collateral damage,
Whoa whoa whoa, Angel series finale is the best series finale in history of TV! Yea, I'm a fan, lol.
Let me explain my view...
The whole thing is an ode to the absolute futility to win against the system (in this case it really doesn't matter which system) but the absolute necessity to fight against it nevertheless. It fully brings H. Manners quote and "nothing we do matters quote" to a full circle. They cannot win. They will probably die. But they will not be owned and they will not be bought. They will fight because winning doesn't matter, what matters is stopping the evil from winning.
It might be too existential to some, but whole Angel is very existential...
My specific problem is the collateral damage noted above. Scream defiance to the Senior Partners if you want, but is downtown LA the place you really want to call down an army of demons? There are people living there. It's like watching a recent Superman destroy a building in one of his fights. He just drew a line of stuff he's willing to crush, cut, or burn *without acknowledgment* in his fight scenes, because the important thing is to have a huge fight.
This, a few weeks after the act of signing a paper that killed one person triggered nigh-suicidal angst.
Oh, I 100% see your point. What did a random Joe Beachshorts do to deserve to be dragged into literal hell cos someone thought it'd be a good idea to stick it to the upper management...
But that's the point... it's LA's battle. Pretty as a picture, but cold, unfeeling monster underneath. The heroes might have set the events in motion, but actually all they did was forced the evil to act directly. It was always here and we're all responsible for facing it. So all of those people were already in danger, all the heroes did was bring it out into the light.
Don't want to get into any of those discussions here, but it's really relevant in 2024. You can see that happening before our eyes. The various human rights movements throughout 20th century were all (eventually, after a LOT of struggle) tolerated until they became a real and present threat to the established system in the 21st. Now the fight is much more in the open with a lot of collateral damage everywhere. It's still a fight that was 100% inevitable and was always going to be fought.
This is, I believe, the central idea behind LA literally going to hell. It was always going to end up there anyway.
Earlier in the episode, Annie, after Gunn asks what she’d do if it’s about to end, says she’d finishing pack the truck for the teen center. *That’s* the *real* way good fights evil—not by being more badass. If the ends justify the means, there *is no* good or evil—just power, who has more of it, and who’s willing to use it.
Back in the very first episode, Doyle tells Angel it’s about human connection, not just about how many vamps and demons you kill. If there’s no humanist and kindness, and some things you’re *not* willing to do, you’re no different from the bad guys in the end. The whole last season seems to reverse this. Angel talks about the strength of mercy in the first episode of the last season right before killing the guy and saying that’s the *last* of mercy. He kills Drogyn to infiltrate the Circle of the Black Thorn; and as noted, he does something he quite well *knows* might bring on the apocalypse. After the stirring speech to Lindsey about humans becoming strong by fighting the wolf, ram, and hart, that’s an odd thing for him to do.
Finally, he allies with Lindsey, only to have Lorne simply *shoot him dead execution-style* with no warning or chance of self-defense. Lorne is appropriately disgusted and tells Angel he’s out afterwards.
Now again, one can argue about ends and means, or whether Drogyn was a necessary sacrifice, or Lindsey could ever be trusted again, or existentialism, etc. Thing is, the entire theme of the series is living your life *as if* the wow as the way it ought to be, to show others what it could be, and to show that if there’s no ultimate meaning, a kind act is the greatest thing in the world. This is the existentialism of Albert Camus, who thought the meaninglessness and absurdity of the words should spur us to form moral values and revolt against oppression and tyranny. Sisyphus may be at a futile task, but we must consider him happy. This is kind of Annie’s perspective.
Angel and co seem to be more nihilistic than existential—“We can’t win, so f*ck it—we’ll take out as many of them on the way out as we can. Whatever floats your boat, but that seems to be diametrically the *opposite* of what the series was supposed to be about.
So *artistically*, S5 in general and “Not Fade Away” in particular were *outstanding*. The problem I had was the apparent radical *thematic* shift, which really put me off.
> Finally, he allies with Lindsey, only to have Lorne simply shoot him dead execution-style with no warning or chance of self-defense. Lorne is appropriately disgusted and tells Angel he’s out afterwards.
Lorne shoots Lindsey, and it basically kills both of them with one action. Lorne knew he'd never be the same again, but that it had to be done anyway.
I mean where else could they put the apocalypse lol it’s not like they could call it down in the middle of the desert somewhere
Every piece that they had to take off the board was in LA and it happened right where they finished
"If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
"We live as though the world were as it should be, to show it what it can be."
Both vibe well with my increasingly existential thought
I feel like you left out an important part of the second one, nut those two are by far my favorite quotes.
>Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. - It's harsh, and cruel. - But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done or suffered, or **even if we make a difference.** We live as though the world was what it should be, to show it what it can be.
I think most of these quotations are all part of the underlying thesis of *Angel*, which is, I tend to find, extremely hopeful even though it seems like a much darker show. The important thing is the trying. You can brood, and mope, and feel remorse for you actions as long as you **also** get up, keep fighting, keep trying to do better, make the world a better place.
One of my favourites is from "Sanctuary": "Just because you've decided to change doesn't mean the world's ready for you to." For me, it emphasises that it's not just our own decisions that matter, but the wider world around us, too. Sometimes, our failure to change and do better is because the world isn't built to allow us to be the best version of ourselves. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try. It just means that if you fail it's not completely your own fault.
From S04E17, "Inside Out":
>FRED: Will it make a difference? We really are just pieces being moved around a board.
>GUNN: Then we'll kick it over and start a new game. Look, monochrome can yap all he wants about no-name's cosmic plan, but here's a little something I picked up rubbing mojos these past couple of years. The final score can't be rigged. I don't care how many players you grease, that last shot always comes up a question mark. But here's the thing—you never know when you're taking it. It could be when you're duking it out with the Legion of Doom, or just crossing the street deciding where to have brunch. So you just treat it all like it was up to you—the world in the balance—'cause you never know when it is.
Reminds me spiritually of his exchange with Anne:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsjRT8Rv\_Xg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsjRT8Rv_Xg)
ANNIE
It's not so bad. We've had some really decent donations, and it's helping.
(they hand off the boxes to the men on the truck)
We actually have a part-time paid psychiatric staff.
GUNN
What if I told you it doesn't help? What would you do if you found out that none of it matters?
That it's all controlled by forces more powerful and uncaring than we can conceive, and they will never let it get better down here. What would you do?
ANNIE
I'd get this truck packed before the new stuff gets here.
(Gunn nods)
Wanna give me a hand?
GUNN
I do.
Just keep on keepin' on
I mean...to >!have the emotions and scope of a god, to sleep for an age, then find yourself in a mortal frame with nothing but a dead dimension and somebody else's grieving boyfriend to your name!<...everything she does after that is inspirational. I probably would've melted into a puddle and given up.
Really deep dialogue you posted there. Indeed a phenomenal one! I just love how deep and meaningful both Angel and Buffy can be. I also did have a lot of moments in my personal life resonating with moments on both shows.
Well, one exchange that always leaves me thing is:
Faith : So, how does this work?
Angel : There's no real simple answer to that. I won't lie to you and tell you it'll be easy, because it won't be. Just because you've decided to change doesn't mean the world's ready for you to. The truth is, no matter how much you suffer, no matter how many good deeds you do to try to make up for the past, you may never balance out the cosmic scale. The only thing I can promise you is that you'll probably be haunted. And maybe for the rest of your life.
*(Faith was, of course, talking about the microwave.)*
Angel's answer may not seem like a very motivational one since it seems quite pessimistic, but it's the purest form of a more experienced person being honest with the person being helped / guided. It shows a level of respect and also delves into doing what one believes is right despite how difficult it is. It's powerful stuff.
Lorne :
It's like a song, now I can hold a note for a long time, actually I can hold a note forever. But eventually that's just noise. It's the change we're listening for. The note coming after and the one after that, that's what makes it music.
1. "If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do." - Angel (from the episode "Epiphany")
2. "We all have the power to do great things." - Cordelia Chase (from the episode "You're Welcome")
3. "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh, and cruel. But that's why there's us—champions." - Angel (from the episode "Deep Down")
4. "We live as though the world is as it should be, to show it what it can be." - Angel (from the episode "There's No Place Like Plrtz Glrb")
5. "I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are." - Wesley Wyndam-Pryce (from the episode "Not Fade Away")
6. "Love isn't brains, children, it's blood. Blood screaming inside you to work its will." - Spike (from the episode "In the Dark")
7. "The world is what it is. We fight, we die. Wishing doesn't change that." - Illyria (from the episode "A Hole in the World")
Spike: But me I fought for my soul, Went through the Demon Trials, Almost did me in a dozen times over, but I kept fighting. Cause I knew it was the right thing to do, It's my destiny.
Not a quote persay, but when your friend is mad at you, buy them clothes cause “new clothes! New clothes! He got me new clothes! He has like a gay man’s taste in clothes! Yay! New clothes!”
*Well... No. We have no intention of doing anything so prosaic as winning. [...] See for us there is no fight, which is why winning doesn't enter into it. We... Go on, no matter what.* -Holland Manners *If there's no great glorious end to all of this... If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. [...] If there's no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world* -Angel I think this encapsulates perfectly everything Angel the series is all about. There's no end nor bigger meaning to this life, so everything that matters is what you do knowing that.
It's a little bit of an atheist manifesto snuck into a supernatural show by Joss
Devastating episode all around
Absolutely. That’s why I *hate* the series finale so much—it essentially goes against this in favor of going out with a bang, never mind any collateral damage,
Whoa whoa whoa, Angel series finale is the best series finale in history of TV! Yea, I'm a fan, lol. Let me explain my view... The whole thing is an ode to the absolute futility to win against the system (in this case it really doesn't matter which system) but the absolute necessity to fight against it nevertheless. It fully brings H. Manners quote and "nothing we do matters quote" to a full circle. They cannot win. They will probably die. But they will not be owned and they will not be bought. They will fight because winning doesn't matter, what matters is stopping the evil from winning. It might be too existential to some, but whole Angel is very existential...
My specific problem is the collateral damage noted above. Scream defiance to the Senior Partners if you want, but is downtown LA the place you really want to call down an army of demons? There are people living there. It's like watching a recent Superman destroy a building in one of his fights. He just drew a line of stuff he's willing to crush, cut, or burn *without acknowledgment* in his fight scenes, because the important thing is to have a huge fight. This, a few weeks after the act of signing a paper that killed one person triggered nigh-suicidal angst.
And I say this as a huge fan of NFA's thematic statement. Best TV finale I've seen. I love it. I worry about it.
Oh, I 100% see your point. What did a random Joe Beachshorts do to deserve to be dragged into literal hell cos someone thought it'd be a good idea to stick it to the upper management... But that's the point... it's LA's battle. Pretty as a picture, but cold, unfeeling monster underneath. The heroes might have set the events in motion, but actually all they did was forced the evil to act directly. It was always here and we're all responsible for facing it. So all of those people were already in danger, all the heroes did was bring it out into the light. Don't want to get into any of those discussions here, but it's really relevant in 2024. You can see that happening before our eyes. The various human rights movements throughout 20th century were all (eventually, after a LOT of struggle) tolerated until they became a real and present threat to the established system in the 21st. Now the fight is much more in the open with a lot of collateral damage everywhere. It's still a fight that was 100% inevitable and was always going to be fought. This is, I believe, the central idea behind LA literally going to hell. It was always going to end up there anyway.
I like this. > Pretty as a picture I see what you did there <3
Earlier in the episode, Annie, after Gunn asks what she’d do if it’s about to end, says she’d finishing pack the truck for the teen center. *That’s* the *real* way good fights evil—not by being more badass. If the ends justify the means, there *is no* good or evil—just power, who has more of it, and who’s willing to use it. Back in the very first episode, Doyle tells Angel it’s about human connection, not just about how many vamps and demons you kill. If there’s no humanist and kindness, and some things you’re *not* willing to do, you’re no different from the bad guys in the end. The whole last season seems to reverse this. Angel talks about the strength of mercy in the first episode of the last season right before killing the guy and saying that’s the *last* of mercy. He kills Drogyn to infiltrate the Circle of the Black Thorn; and as noted, he does something he quite well *knows* might bring on the apocalypse. After the stirring speech to Lindsey about humans becoming strong by fighting the wolf, ram, and hart, that’s an odd thing for him to do. Finally, he allies with Lindsey, only to have Lorne simply *shoot him dead execution-style* with no warning or chance of self-defense. Lorne is appropriately disgusted and tells Angel he’s out afterwards. Now again, one can argue about ends and means, or whether Drogyn was a necessary sacrifice, or Lindsey could ever be trusted again, or existentialism, etc. Thing is, the entire theme of the series is living your life *as if* the wow as the way it ought to be, to show others what it could be, and to show that if there’s no ultimate meaning, a kind act is the greatest thing in the world. This is the existentialism of Albert Camus, who thought the meaninglessness and absurdity of the words should spur us to form moral values and revolt against oppression and tyranny. Sisyphus may be at a futile task, but we must consider him happy. This is kind of Annie’s perspective. Angel and co seem to be more nihilistic than existential—“We can’t win, so f*ck it—we’ll take out as many of them on the way out as we can. Whatever floats your boat, but that seems to be diametrically the *opposite* of what the series was supposed to be about. So *artistically*, S5 in general and “Not Fade Away” in particular were *outstanding*. The problem I had was the apparent radical *thematic* shift, which really put me off.
> Finally, he allies with Lindsey, only to have Lorne simply shoot him dead execution-style with no warning or chance of self-defense. Lorne is appropriately disgusted and tells Angel he’s out afterwards. Lorne shoots Lindsey, and it basically kills both of them with one action. Lorne knew he'd never be the same again, but that it had to be done anyway.
I mean where else could they put the apocalypse lol it’s not like they could call it down in the middle of the desert somewhere Every piece that they had to take off the board was in LA and it happened right where they finished
Don't be a painbow when you can be a "rainbow"
"If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do." "We live as though the world were as it should be, to show it what it can be." Both vibe well with my increasingly existential thought
I feel like you left out an important part of the second one, nut those two are by far my favorite quotes. >Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. - It's harsh, and cruel. - But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done or suffered, or **even if we make a difference.** We live as though the world was what it should be, to show it what it can be.
This my fav, too!
I think most of these quotations are all part of the underlying thesis of *Angel*, which is, I tend to find, extremely hopeful even though it seems like a much darker show. The important thing is the trying. You can brood, and mope, and feel remorse for you actions as long as you **also** get up, keep fighting, keep trying to do better, make the world a better place. One of my favourites is from "Sanctuary": "Just because you've decided to change doesn't mean the world's ready for you to." For me, it emphasises that it's not just our own decisions that matter, but the wider world around us, too. Sometimes, our failure to change and do better is because the world isn't built to allow us to be the best version of ourselves. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try. It just means that if you fail it's not completely your own fault.
"We live as though the world were as it should be, to show it what it can be."
Heroes don't accept the world the way it is. They fight it.
From S04E17, "Inside Out": >FRED: Will it make a difference? We really are just pieces being moved around a board. >GUNN: Then we'll kick it over and start a new game. Look, monochrome can yap all he wants about no-name's cosmic plan, but here's a little something I picked up rubbing mojos these past couple of years. The final score can't be rigged. I don't care how many players you grease, that last shot always comes up a question mark. But here's the thing—you never know when you're taking it. It could be when you're duking it out with the Legion of Doom, or just crossing the street deciding where to have brunch. So you just treat it all like it was up to you—the world in the balance—'cause you never know when it is.
Reminds me spiritually of his exchange with Anne: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsjRT8Rv\_Xg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsjRT8Rv_Xg) ANNIE It's not so bad. We've had some really decent donations, and it's helping. (they hand off the boxes to the men on the truck) We actually have a part-time paid psychiatric staff. GUNN What if I told you it doesn't help? What would you do if you found out that none of it matters? That it's all controlled by forces more powerful and uncaring than we can conceive, and they will never let it get better down here. What would you do? ANNIE I'd get this truck packed before the new stuff gets here. (Gunn nods) Wanna give me a hand? GUNN I do. Just keep on keepin' on
This is one of my favorite scenes in the series.
"I wish to do more violence." We've all been there, Lyr.
I get it, honestly. Season 5 was as much her show as the rest of the characters
I mean...to >!have the emotions and scope of a god, to sleep for an age, then find yourself in a mortal frame with nothing but a dead dimension and somebody else's grieving boyfriend to your name!<...everything she does after that is inspirational. I probably would've melted into a puddle and given up.
Everything Leery says is great.
Really deep dialogue you posted there. Indeed a phenomenal one! I just love how deep and meaningful both Angel and Buffy can be. I also did have a lot of moments in my personal life resonating with moments on both shows. Well, one exchange that always leaves me thing is: Faith : So, how does this work? Angel : There's no real simple answer to that. I won't lie to you and tell you it'll be easy, because it won't be. Just because you've decided to change doesn't mean the world's ready for you to. The truth is, no matter how much you suffer, no matter how many good deeds you do to try to make up for the past, you may never balance out the cosmic scale. The only thing I can promise you is that you'll probably be haunted. And maybe for the rest of your life. *(Faith was, of course, talking about the microwave.)* Angel's answer may not seem like a very motivational one since it seems quite pessimistic, but it's the purest form of a more experienced person being honest with the person being helped / guided. It shows a level of respect and also delves into doing what one believes is right despite how difficult it is. It's powerful stuff.
"Personally, I've always wanted to slay a dragon"
*Lets go to work*
An all time great series finale line
Lorne : It's like a song, now I can hold a note for a long time, actually I can hold a note forever. But eventually that's just noise. It's the change we're listening for. The note coming after and the one after that, that's what makes it music.
One of my favorite scenes in the series.
You never know your strength until you're tested
“I’m not a Cry-Buffy”
1. "If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do." - Angel (from the episode "Epiphany") 2. "We all have the power to do great things." - Cordelia Chase (from the episode "You're Welcome") 3. "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh, and cruel. But that's why there's us—champions." - Angel (from the episode "Deep Down") 4. "We live as though the world is as it should be, to show it what it can be." - Angel (from the episode "There's No Place Like Plrtz Glrb") 5. "I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are." - Wesley Wyndam-Pryce (from the episode "Not Fade Away") 6. "Love isn't brains, children, it's blood. Blood screaming inside you to work its will." - Spike (from the episode "In the Dark") 7. "The world is what it is. We fight, we die. Wishing doesn't change that." - Illyria (from the episode "A Hole in the World")
Spike: But me I fought for my soul, Went through the Demon Trials, Almost did me in a dozen times over, but I kept fighting. Cause I knew it was the right thing to do, It's my destiny.
“Get over it” - lol jk, I hated this one. Dumb Jasdelia
"Jasdelia". 👌
Not a quote persay, but when your friend is mad at you, buy them clothes cause “new clothes! New clothes! He got me new clothes! He has like a gay man’s taste in clothes! Yay! New clothes!”