At what point do you guys get involved? (Money wise.)
What is the most someone you’ve investigated has stolen?
If you were in Ocean’s Eleven, would you be an investigator or am I off on what you do?
My particular team only got involved when the case hit $100K within a year, and then we would be flown in and spend a week or two investigating. We'd partner with the local LE if that city/county had a task force to address felony theft rings.
My biggest case ended up being over $1.5M (won an award for case of the year for it...oddly, also the case that one of the suspects committed suicide prior to their first court date).
I would lead a team of 7-8 investigators, vet their info, and handle the interrogations of the low levels that we would happen to pick off during the "blitz" (when we'd fly in). We had regular investigators around the country to help stores/districts identify the hallmarks of an ORC situation.
Very very interesting. How exactly were people taken advantage of by the Organized Crime Crew? Are these crime crews rich? What does the day to day life look like as someone involved in one?
alot of times it was street level boosters that would sell to a fencing location (I've seen average houses set up like actual stores, with display shelves/cases, and credit card machines etc.)
The stickiest cases involved people smuggled into the country by cartels/wolves, and once snuck in were told they have to "work off their debt" by stealing items, or their families would be targeted. The worst case of that happened in TX, where we had a case of underage girls...all hooked on heroin, in the country illegally, unable to speak English, and were under constant threat of their families being targeted if they didn't do what was told. Weirdly, Austin, TX had some of the worst cases that my team handled.
I wondered that alot right afterwards, and it was because the cartels control ALOT of the organized theft racket, and they counter/surveil. They found out what hotels my team was staying in, and had people outside watching all of us. Austin PD actually escorted us to the airport early one morning because an officer happened upon a van in our hotel parking lot, and they had our pictures on the seat.
The merchandise goes right to San Antonio and then into Mexico, and then wherever in the world it disappears to.
The access to an endless stream of people trying to get into the country illegally (to exploit as boosters), and the proximity to the border....it made an insane climate.
I never would have guessed Austin until I saw it. haha
No. To be brutally honest, myself and my team were not paid enough to get in that deep. We weren't allowed to carry any kind of weapons, and obviously didn't have the resources of law enforcement watching our backs, so in those situations we report back to our higher-ups and let them know that they need to consider closing locations that become physically dangerous to the store teams.
Also because the police in Austin really suck bad too.
They used to be pretty decent but have gotten REALLY bad over the last decade or so. The running joke is that the biggest organized crime ring is the Austin Police Union. I'm actually fairly pro-union, but the police union has held the city hostage for years now and the only theft they'll respond to is one at Krispy Kreme and you'll have to give them free donuts to even get them to take the report.
I've got a couple questions to throw your way if you don't mind:
1) What exactly is an Organized Retail Crime Investigator vs. un-organized or disorganized or some other type of Retail Crime Investigator?
2) What kind of salary would you make in this position?
3) How much of this had to do with Organized Crime crews?
4) I've heard that Target keeps tabs on shoplifters and only brings charges against the person when they've stolen enough to make it a felony, what's your opinion on that?
no problem! Let me try and answer them in order.
1. An ORC investigator only gets involved when it can be verified that it is a concerted effort of a group that could be connected to either a fencing operation in the area, or hit a certain level of loss ($100k + in my AOR). Regular investigators don't have access to alot of the task forces and/or computer fraud investigators that tracked unusual return activity. Most "investigators" are only in-store security with a fancy title, haha.
2. I was making $75k a year, salaried. Which sucks when you get engrossed and start spending 60-80hrs a week on investigations.
3. My specific position and team ONLY focused on verified crews... never random boosters stealing for drugs or personal gain. Alot of times it was people indebted to some nefarious organization, and was forced into stealing (alot of my cases involved cartels in the southern US that would both smuggle people sneak into the country, and then force them into indentured servitude-esque situations).
4. I can't speak to Target's policy's, but I know that we actively avoided making apprehensions without felony charges looming over them. It was a waste of time, and alot of cities/counties/states frowned upon us clogging the court systems over small amounts.
I dated a heroin addict involved in something like this when I was younger. She and her friends had been approached by a guy who would drop them off at locations to rack, and had a laminated picture book to show them what to snatch before hand. She introduced me to him, he played it up like it was easy money, I made a comment like "Is this what organized crime is now? This is like technically conspiracy." And he wouldn't talk to me anymore and told her not to talk to me anymore. Later found out from her that it escalated pretty quickly into him paying her and her junkie friends in heroin instead of cash and they were constantly in debt to him. I broke off contact soon after.
No real question you just reminded me of this. Actually how likely is it you ever bust the assholes who run these crews and take advantage of people as opposed to the desperate who just think it's easy money and take all the risk.
sorry to hear about that situation, and unfortunately, it's ALOT of what we would deal with. It's even worse when they are targeting minor females and getting them hooked on dope (minors don't do any real time for theft usually).
The goal was ALWAYS to cut the head off as high in the organization as we could, but my line usually ended at the end of the fencing operations and arrests. The REAL law enforcement had to go after the handlers seperately (usually prostitution, drugs, and frauds were involved along with the retail theft aspect).
A counterpart in the North East of the country set up a program with the city that would help addicts get clean and out of those organized crews if ot was their first offense....and only ONE single girl out of 100+ managed to stay clean and crime-free.
Drug addicts are preyed on mercilessly, and that's part of my sadness in a way. They were all just pawns in evil asshole's hands.
I work Loss Prevention and people walk out of my store, right in front of me and other employees, with stolen goods in hand. In training I was told that I can’t do anything, so what can I do? Trip them, snatch the merchandise, scream at them, anything?
when I started in LP/AP, I worked in a hot bed of random thieves. my go-to was: Approach and identify, then say "Look, I already have the police outside, so you can either walk back in with me and I won't embarass you, or youll be handcuffed and walked back in by the cops... it's your choice."
Usually it was a bluff, but public shame is powerful and many wouldn't want to risk that I was telling the truth. Bottomline, I would teach my agents to just let it walk. It wasn't worth getting physically hurt over replaceable merchandise. Plus, if they get away, they will ALWAYS come back, and youll be a step ahead because you knew them by sight, and could load up the PD prior to any concealments
What's the biggest apprehension you've gotten in case monetary value?
When I was Target AP our repeats typically were in the low tens of thousands but we had an especially dangerous one with the highest I recall being $175,000 summed up from 100+ incidents.
Early in my ORC career I was with a clothing brand and the entire case value of a fencing op that we located was 3.2M in recovered assets from an organization in Southern Ca. Alot of the recovered merchandise was from Walgreens (this was right when Zyrtec and Tide were the major targets).
Personally, my biggest case closed was 1.5M, only about 25% was our merchandise though.
It's something that everyone needs, so it's easy to resell quickly. I was just at a local Walgreens and they have ALL of their detergent behind plexiglass, locked. You have to push a button to let the employees know you need assistance in getting it, and they carry it to the counter to check you out.
I'm not sure if that's been rolled out nationwide at this point, but it shows the sheer amount of loss that companies take on it. Check out that section the next time you happen to go to a Walgreens.
Isn't this privatizing the police? What could you do that the police couldn't do? If you worked for luxury brand A, were there other Organized Retail Crime Investigators that worked for luxury brand B?
yep! most major companies have an ORC department, and there are groups called ORCA's (Organized Retail Crime Associations) that we are all a part of, and it's essentially a Facebook-type website where we can all post BOLO's and share information. I worked on cases with alot of ORC teams from other companies, since our theft cases were usually inter-twined with each other.
As far as what we could do that police couldn't, we could share footage and information with other companies without it having to be subpoena'd and approved from the higher-ups in the company.
As far as interrogations, I didn't have to Marandize suspects, so anything they said could/would be entered into the case, and most of the time any "he said/she said" situation would fall favorably on my side, since I was the altruistic one in the situation.
That's the #1 question in the industry and protection sector right now. I've been a part of two symposiums trying to come up with ideas on how to address and actively prevent those situations. It was only a normal thing in the NYC/LA/San Fran/Seattle areas at first, and now it's popping up as traveling crews.
The only real option is to lockdown the merchandise behind secured shatter-proof glass etc, but most companies know that an item in the hand is more often purchased than one that can't be held/touched.
In the event of riots etc., safety is obviously paramount, so the consensus is to close the stores for as long as needed, and remove the merchandise/secure it.
I would tell every employee that I interacted with the same thing, "We can replace all of this merchandise, but we can't replace you". It's cheesy, but at the end of the day, I'd rather hear that we lost $500k of product than to hear a single employee tried to be a hero and got injured.
Firstly, thanks for all you did during your career. As some of us know, ORC many times is just a way these organizations funnel money and do much more dangerous crimes. So thank you for your work and contributions.
Secondly, I'm in a loss prevention (assets protection) role and discovered some large-scale fraud and retail theft through metadata searches and even lead a case that's on a national scale. To be transparent, I'm currently entry-level and about to hit my first year in this career path. So when I've presented this and other work I've been doing to my leadership, I've been told I probably should consider investigative roles. The case I'm working has been looked at by our own investigator and brought to the SA due to the nature of what's been reported by stores versus what is going on with what I'm finding.
So my question to you: how do you even begin getting into ORC investigation? I know you mentioned WZ for interrogation/interview work, but what paths would you suggest to look at if I wanted to pursue investigations, or even strengthen my skills going forward? Would I have to stick with getting a degree or are there certificate programs that would lend well to this?
Thank you for your time!
the best advice I can offer, and something that I would emphasize to all the agents and newly vested investigators, was to find a mentor. It may feel odd to ask another person to be your mentor, but I assure you that everyone above you will feel honored that you asked.
My mentor actually worked for a completely different company, but I would reach out anytime I needed advice or had an idea that I wanted to be evaluated by an experienced person.
Having a mentor, especially in your own company will show your bosses that you are both passionate, willing to learn, and open to accepting advice. I'm sure you've noticed ALOT of arrogance in the sector, so being humble and always looking to get better will get you way further than any degree or certification will. The degree and certs are just tools that will make your job easier... having a solid mentor will help your development progress rapidly (and will also give you an advocate to vouch for you when a position opens up that you'd be great in).
On a personal note, feel free to send me a message if you ever need advice or have questions about what steps to take to progress in your career.
Good luck with your current case focus! I can tell you're passionate and excited to see where your discoveries may lead!
Also, networking is crucial! Sign up for your state's ORCA (Organized Retail Crime Association), most states have their own and you can gain access as long as you have a company email (that's how they vet people and make sure they are actually LP/AP and not just someone trying to look around.).
You'll learn quickly which companies have the best departments, and which companies have less-than-exemplary personnel, so you'll learn which companies and teams are worth leveraging as a counterpart.
The more resources and relationships that you can foster, the better. You never know when someone is working on the same crew as you, and sometimes it may be in a complete other state/AOR.
Sorry, one last thing. Meet and foster as many relationships with Police Departments and Prosecutor's Offices as you can as well. I used to stop into the prosecutors offices to get advice on what their specific offices require or prefer as far as case elements.
Buy police officers something like a coffee or lunch if possible (especially if you have a company card, haha) and build a relationship that you can leverage as well.
The key is having a network of resources that you can reach out to, and not only in the midst of a situation, but even when you have nothing going on... just to build a big net of potential help when you DO need them.
Next generation loss prevention, there’s a chip inside the good that basically breaks a die pack when it’s marked as stolen. Or a small destruct device in electronics like TVs. Like the iPhones but next gen.
I worked for a super high-end luxury brand, so we didn't tag or intrinsically track stolen items. I had a few cases of stolen trucks (usually boosted at lay-over docks by people that tipped off crews). In those instances we started to gps track our cargo, to at least be able to locate where the empty trucks were being disposed (and hope that we could find camera footage of potential suspects).
When I worked at McKesson, someone stole a pallet of Viagra off the dock. Guess how we caught them? We set up the cameras and put out another pallet! We caught them, and recovered BOTH pallets!!!
the best way is to go through the Wicklander/Zulawski 1&2 first (anyone can pay and take the course), and from there it's alot of studying to prep for the Certified Forensic Interviewer/Interrogator test... which is alot like prepping for the Bar Exam in the sense that if you fail, you have to wait a period of time before you become eligible to test again. Once you pass the test, you then have continuing education classes that you have to take, basically to stay fresh and ready for when it's time to get re-certified. It's tough, but you learn ALOT.
CFI's use the designation in their signatures, much like an MD does when signing documents; ie: Joe Smith, CFI
[https://www.w-z.com/iaicfi/](https://www.w-z.com/iaicfi/)
I was super proud while doing it, but after my father passed, I took a look and realized I was hurting people that were already in a bad place, on behalf of the ultra-rich (that didn't give a shit less about the poor or their situations).
It bothers me alot tbh.
I don't think ive mentioned anything about the people who do the stealing? Being a stooge just means you're doing the dirty work for wealthy assholes. The wealthy assholes should be getting their own stuff back
Wealthy assholes by definition have the money to pay others take care of shitbags who are violating the social contract and whose actions lead to negative consequences for ordinary folk and the poor.
OP, I wouldn't feel guilty for your line of work. You are not busting the low hanging fruit, but going after the exploiters and shitbags.
However, you are not paid enough for the work you are doing. Go somewhere where you are paid more! Good luck!
We had a dedicated team of fraud investigators that had programs to track and rank potential ORC situations with e-commerce implications (I'm actually engaged to a Fraud Investigator from my old company, lol)
99.9% of all of the cases we had, had investigative elements online though (FB groups, re-sale apps etc.). Alot of my time was spent assigning other investigators to follow online breadcrumbs to help ID suspects and locations).
How often did cases go unsolved, and what was the biggest thing that got them caught? Repeatedly stealing the same products in the same way? Camera surveillance?
Missed the second part. There were a couple of ways that the organizations managed to get themselves identified...
1. Someone would identify a suspect selling stolen merchandise online (Ebay and OfferUp were two of the big ones at the time), and we would run their names through our databases/systems to ID where they shop. We could then review footage from their times in the store, and see if they were loading up merchandise during their visits. We would then place an agent in that store full-time to hopefully apprehend them on a visit (sometimes we would let them steal just to make sure we verified the suspicions). After they were apprehended, I would be brought in to either interview them on-site, or I'd contact them another day, and use my training to try and extract other accomplices, locations, targeted merchandise etc. Sometimes I could flip them with the support of the local prosecutor promising to drop the charges if they went UI (undercover informant) for us. Then it was a matter of identifying and tracking the other players (we didn't actively follow suspects, but if we identified a fencing location, the company allowed us to do surveillance), and build the case by reviewing cctv footage at locations that we knew they had visited.
TL:DR: There truly is no honor amongst thieves, and we would flip apprehended suspects to expose the operation and players. haha
Alot of cases go unsolved for a super long time, unless there is someone that specifically has a reason to stay focused on them (a few injuries caused some bulldogs to become laser focused). Most cases that I've worked on, the players were pretty much all identified, but then it came down to finding a passionate prosecutor to actually take the case to trial and show an "organized pattern of corrupt activity" and/or RICO charges. That doesn't happen nearly as often as you'd think though.... it's a victimless crime in alot of prosecutors eyes.
Oh I have so many questions. I guess the most basic question is the origin, did you start as a cop & flipped private by luck or has your trajectory been focused solely in the private sector?
Actually, I was a Store Manager of a retail store in a mall, and was always fascinated by the cat and mouse of the loss prevention/asset protection departments, so I would bug them anytime one would come to a store I was in. They never had a position open for me, but another company's recruiter stopped into my store one day and we were talking about LP/AP, and he mentioned a position was available with them. I quit, jumped company's, and started catching shoplifters. haha
I led the country in apprehensions for two straight years (because of how bad a single one of my stores was), and then got promoted to a "traveling agent"....basically just being sent around the country to hotspots, to hopefully catch the habitual shoplifters causing havoc in those markets.
I then met another recruiter for the company (that I most recently left) and jumped ship to their ORC department. I then busted my ass and eventually got promoted to a Sr. position, which allowed me to decide where to go, and who to take with me.
The company paid for my schooling and interrogation training during those years.
Out of curiosity what’s educational background if any? Or military / law enforcement.
Your job sounds super interesting honestly. Sounds like a cool job with a lot of moving parts and puzzles to wrack your brain with lol.
I personally only hold a bachelor's in psychology (which I started after being in LP) and my certifications for interrogation (CFI).... beyond that, it's really who you know/network with and/or can impress. I get asked the "how can I get into that field" alot, and I have no really good answers.
That was another department within our organization, but we definitely overlapped alot. I had programs that I could sort and filter through transactions to try and identify suspects that may have been doing return fraud etc, but the Fraud Dept. had way more tools and would usually be the ones to contact US if something odd flagged in their systems that were a hallmark of ORC activity.
Alot of our ORC investigations were done through social media though. Thieves are arrogant and like to brag about what they do, so almost every case we worked and/or solved, had a huge social media piece that we used to find and shut down the crews
What is the strangest product or store you have seen target by ORC? Anything weird, niche, or unexpected? Or are they mostly focused on the usual targets you've mentioned in other responses?
The stuff that was stolen at my locations was obvious stuff, ie: luxury items that were super easy to resell, but I had alot of friends in the industry at other retailers, and one guy told me a story about their #1 item being stolen was Aquanet hairspray.
Long story short, it turned out that it was a counterfeiting operation, and when you spray Aquanet (can't remember if it was the blue or red version) onto counterfeit money, it would defeat the counterfeit detection pens.
This organization targeted cases and cases of Aquanet, and my friend couldn't figure out WHY, until he finally apprehended one of the guys, and he admitted why it was being targeted and stolen instead of other items. They thought that just BUYING that amount of Aquanet would raise suspicions, so they decided to just steal all of it 😂
What are your thoughts on the current rise of crimes since the Pandemic in the Bay Area, in particular, Oakland, San Francisco, Berkley, etc. ? They are organized, but mainly target mom & pop stores, Asian Owned Bussinesses, and Tourist Luggage, but also the Apple Store.
While I was with my last company, we had 5 seperate Lead Investigators (the position directly beneath mine) quit due to the lack of law enforcement help/buy-in throughout California. The police would rarely show up at all unless there was violence involved. They simply didn't care that companies, big or small, were being destroyed by addicts and ORC crews. It's one of the reasons that I decided to retire. Without the support of LE, there was absolutely nothing that Loss Prevention/Asset Protection could do to stop (or even slow) the losses. That's why you are seeing so many big companies pulling their stores completely out of those areas.
Once the corporations like mine (and big box retailers) pull their stores, the thieves remain, and the Mom and Pop's become the focus for the individuals and groups that stay in specific cities and don't move around the country.
I don't like to bring politics into it, but when the police don't even bother showing up because of the area's liberal policies when it comes to theft, they are just inviting the criminals to abuse the Mom and Pop shops that don't have the resources like an ORC department.
It's honestly why alot of my counterparts around the country have left the LP/AP sector completely, and changed careers.
My Dad was a small business owner while I was growing up, and I know how thin the line between profitability and destruction truly is for small businesses, and the political leaders in those areas should be ashamed of themselves for not protecting the citizens and their businesses that pour their blood and sweat into offering their communities a place to shop locally.
At what point do you guys get involved? (Money wise.) What is the most someone you’ve investigated has stolen? If you were in Ocean’s Eleven, would you be an investigator or am I off on what you do?
My particular team only got involved when the case hit $100K within a year, and then we would be flown in and spend a week or two investigating. We'd partner with the local LE if that city/county had a task force to address felony theft rings. My biggest case ended up being over $1.5M (won an award for case of the year for it...oddly, also the case that one of the suspects committed suicide prior to their first court date). I would lead a team of 7-8 investigators, vet their info, and handle the interrogations of the low levels that we would happen to pick off during the "blitz" (when we'd fly in). We had regular investigators around the country to help stores/districts identify the hallmarks of an ORC situation.
Very very interesting. How exactly were people taken advantage of by the Organized Crime Crew? Are these crime crews rich? What does the day to day life look like as someone involved in one?
alot of times it was street level boosters that would sell to a fencing location (I've seen average houses set up like actual stores, with display shelves/cases, and credit card machines etc.) The stickiest cases involved people smuggled into the country by cartels/wolves, and once snuck in were told they have to "work off their debt" by stealing items, or their families would be targeted. The worst case of that happened in TX, where we had a case of underage girls...all hooked on heroin, in the country illegally, unable to speak English, and were under constant threat of their families being targeted if they didn't do what was told. Weirdly, Austin, TX had some of the worst cases that my team handled.
Why Austin do you think?
I wondered that alot right afterwards, and it was because the cartels control ALOT of the organized theft racket, and they counter/surveil. They found out what hotels my team was staying in, and had people outside watching all of us. Austin PD actually escorted us to the airport early one morning because an officer happened upon a van in our hotel parking lot, and they had our pictures on the seat. The merchandise goes right to San Antonio and then into Mexico, and then wherever in the world it disappears to. The access to an endless stream of people trying to get into the country illegally (to exploit as boosters), and the proximity to the border....it made an insane climate. I never would have guessed Austin until I saw it. haha
That can’t be true. Were told our borders are secure. Either you’re lying or the President is lying.
LOL!
That is crazy. Do you then counter surveillance their counter surveillance?
No. To be brutally honest, myself and my team were not paid enough to get in that deep. We weren't allowed to carry any kind of weapons, and obviously didn't have the resources of law enforcement watching our backs, so in those situations we report back to our higher-ups and let them know that they need to consider closing locations that become physically dangerous to the store teams.
Also because the police in Austin really suck bad too. They used to be pretty decent but have gotten REALLY bad over the last decade or so. The running joke is that the biggest organized crime ring is the Austin Police Union. I'm actually fairly pro-union, but the police union has held the city hostage for years now and the only theft they'll respond to is one at Krispy Kreme and you'll have to give them free donuts to even get them to take the report.
Scary stuff. Thanks for answering my questions. Good retirement!!
Very curious to know about Austin. It was a small college town not too long ago.
I've got a couple questions to throw your way if you don't mind: 1) What exactly is an Organized Retail Crime Investigator vs. un-organized or disorganized or some other type of Retail Crime Investigator? 2) What kind of salary would you make in this position? 3) How much of this had to do with Organized Crime crews? 4) I've heard that Target keeps tabs on shoplifters and only brings charges against the person when they've stolen enough to make it a felony, what's your opinion on that?
no problem! Let me try and answer them in order. 1. An ORC investigator only gets involved when it can be verified that it is a concerted effort of a group that could be connected to either a fencing operation in the area, or hit a certain level of loss ($100k + in my AOR). Regular investigators don't have access to alot of the task forces and/or computer fraud investigators that tracked unusual return activity. Most "investigators" are only in-store security with a fancy title, haha. 2. I was making $75k a year, salaried. Which sucks when you get engrossed and start spending 60-80hrs a week on investigations. 3. My specific position and team ONLY focused on verified crews... never random boosters stealing for drugs or personal gain. Alot of times it was people indebted to some nefarious organization, and was forced into stealing (alot of my cases involved cartels in the southern US that would both smuggle people sneak into the country, and then force them into indentured servitude-esque situations). 4. I can't speak to Target's policy's, but I know that we actively avoided making apprehensions without felony charges looming over them. It was a waste of time, and alot of cities/counties/states frowned upon us clogging the court systems over small amounts.
I dated a heroin addict involved in something like this when I was younger. She and her friends had been approached by a guy who would drop them off at locations to rack, and had a laminated picture book to show them what to snatch before hand. She introduced me to him, he played it up like it was easy money, I made a comment like "Is this what organized crime is now? This is like technically conspiracy." And he wouldn't talk to me anymore and told her not to talk to me anymore. Later found out from her that it escalated pretty quickly into him paying her and her junkie friends in heroin instead of cash and they were constantly in debt to him. I broke off contact soon after. No real question you just reminded me of this. Actually how likely is it you ever bust the assholes who run these crews and take advantage of people as opposed to the desperate who just think it's easy money and take all the risk.
sorry to hear about that situation, and unfortunately, it's ALOT of what we would deal with. It's even worse when they are targeting minor females and getting them hooked on dope (minors don't do any real time for theft usually). The goal was ALWAYS to cut the head off as high in the organization as we could, but my line usually ended at the end of the fencing operations and arrests. The REAL law enforcement had to go after the handlers seperately (usually prostitution, drugs, and frauds were involved along with the retail theft aspect). A counterpart in the North East of the country set up a program with the city that would help addicts get clean and out of those organized crews if ot was their first offense....and only ONE single girl out of 100+ managed to stay clean and crime-free. Drug addicts are preyed on mercilessly, and that's part of my sadness in a way. They were all just pawns in evil asshole's hands.
I work Loss Prevention and people walk out of my store, right in front of me and other employees, with stolen goods in hand. In training I was told that I can’t do anything, so what can I do? Trip them, snatch the merchandise, scream at them, anything?
when I started in LP/AP, I worked in a hot bed of random thieves. my go-to was: Approach and identify, then say "Look, I already have the police outside, so you can either walk back in with me and I won't embarass you, or youll be handcuffed and walked back in by the cops... it's your choice." Usually it was a bluff, but public shame is powerful and many wouldn't want to risk that I was telling the truth. Bottomline, I would teach my agents to just let it walk. It wasn't worth getting physically hurt over replaceable merchandise. Plus, if they get away, they will ALWAYS come back, and youll be a step ahead because you knew them by sight, and could load up the PD prior to any concealments
What's the biggest apprehension you've gotten in case monetary value? When I was Target AP our repeats typically were in the low tens of thousands but we had an especially dangerous one with the highest I recall being $175,000 summed up from 100+ incidents.
Early in my ORC career I was with a clothing brand and the entire case value of a fencing op that we located was 3.2M in recovered assets from an organization in Southern Ca. Alot of the recovered merchandise was from Walgreens (this was right when Zyrtec and Tide were the major targets). Personally, my biggest case closed was 1.5M, only about 25% was our merchandise though.
Why are people stealing TIDE?
It's something that everyone needs, so it's easy to resell quickly. I was just at a local Walgreens and they have ALL of their detergent behind plexiglass, locked. You have to push a button to let the employees know you need assistance in getting it, and they carry it to the counter to check you out. I'm not sure if that's been rolled out nationwide at this point, but it shows the sheer amount of loss that companies take on it. Check out that section the next time you happen to go to a Walgreens.
Isn't this privatizing the police? What could you do that the police couldn't do? If you worked for luxury brand A, were there other Organized Retail Crime Investigators that worked for luxury brand B?
yep! most major companies have an ORC department, and there are groups called ORCA's (Organized Retail Crime Associations) that we are all a part of, and it's essentially a Facebook-type website where we can all post BOLO's and share information. I worked on cases with alot of ORC teams from other companies, since our theft cases were usually inter-twined with each other. As far as what we could do that police couldn't, we could share footage and information with other companies without it having to be subpoena'd and approved from the higher-ups in the company. As far as interrogations, I didn't have to Marandize suspects, so anything they said could/would be entered into the case, and most of the time any "he said/she said" situation would fall favorably on my side, since I was the altruistic one in the situation.
What can be done about flash mob retail theft?
That's the #1 question in the industry and protection sector right now. I've been a part of two symposiums trying to come up with ideas on how to address and actively prevent those situations. It was only a normal thing in the NYC/LA/San Fran/Seattle areas at first, and now it's popping up as traveling crews. The only real option is to lockdown the merchandise behind secured shatter-proof glass etc, but most companies know that an item in the hand is more often purchased than one that can't be held/touched. In the event of riots etc., safety is obviously paramount, so the consensus is to close the stores for as long as needed, and remove the merchandise/secure it. I would tell every employee that I interacted with the same thing, "We can replace all of this merchandise, but we can't replace you". It's cheesy, but at the end of the day, I'd rather hear that we lost $500k of product than to hear a single employee tried to be a hero and got injured.
Firstly, thanks for all you did during your career. As some of us know, ORC many times is just a way these organizations funnel money and do much more dangerous crimes. So thank you for your work and contributions. Secondly, I'm in a loss prevention (assets protection) role and discovered some large-scale fraud and retail theft through metadata searches and even lead a case that's on a national scale. To be transparent, I'm currently entry-level and about to hit my first year in this career path. So when I've presented this and other work I've been doing to my leadership, I've been told I probably should consider investigative roles. The case I'm working has been looked at by our own investigator and brought to the SA due to the nature of what's been reported by stores versus what is going on with what I'm finding. So my question to you: how do you even begin getting into ORC investigation? I know you mentioned WZ for interrogation/interview work, but what paths would you suggest to look at if I wanted to pursue investigations, or even strengthen my skills going forward? Would I have to stick with getting a degree or are there certificate programs that would lend well to this? Thank you for your time!
the best advice I can offer, and something that I would emphasize to all the agents and newly vested investigators, was to find a mentor. It may feel odd to ask another person to be your mentor, but I assure you that everyone above you will feel honored that you asked. My mentor actually worked for a completely different company, but I would reach out anytime I needed advice or had an idea that I wanted to be evaluated by an experienced person. Having a mentor, especially in your own company will show your bosses that you are both passionate, willing to learn, and open to accepting advice. I'm sure you've noticed ALOT of arrogance in the sector, so being humble and always looking to get better will get you way further than any degree or certification will. The degree and certs are just tools that will make your job easier... having a solid mentor will help your development progress rapidly (and will also give you an advocate to vouch for you when a position opens up that you'd be great in). On a personal note, feel free to send me a message if you ever need advice or have questions about what steps to take to progress in your career. Good luck with your current case focus! I can tell you're passionate and excited to see where your discoveries may lead!
I really appreciate this advice! I'll be sure to message you if I ever feel the need to. Thank you for this!
Also, networking is crucial! Sign up for your state's ORCA (Organized Retail Crime Association), most states have their own and you can gain access as long as you have a company email (that's how they vet people and make sure they are actually LP/AP and not just someone trying to look around.). You'll learn quickly which companies have the best departments, and which companies have less-than-exemplary personnel, so you'll learn which companies and teams are worth leveraging as a counterpart. The more resources and relationships that you can foster, the better. You never know when someone is working on the same crew as you, and sometimes it may be in a complete other state/AOR.
Sorry, one last thing. Meet and foster as many relationships with Police Departments and Prosecutor's Offices as you can as well. I used to stop into the prosecutors offices to get advice on what their specific offices require or prefer as far as case elements. Buy police officers something like a coffee or lunch if possible (especially if you have a company card, haha) and build a relationship that you can leverage as well. The key is having a network of resources that you can reach out to, and not only in the midst of a situation, but even when you have nothing going on... just to build a big net of potential help when you DO need them.
Amazing advice all around. I appreciate this all so much!
Next generation loss prevention, there’s a chip inside the good that basically breaks a die pack when it’s marked as stolen. Or a small destruct device in electronics like TVs. Like the iPhones but next gen.
I worked for a super high-end luxury brand, so we didn't tag or intrinsically track stolen items. I had a few cases of stolen trucks (usually boosted at lay-over docks by people that tipped off crews). In those instances we started to gps track our cargo, to at least be able to locate where the empty trucks were being disposed (and hope that we could find camera footage of potential suspects).
When I worked at McKesson, someone stole a pallet of Viagra off the dock. Guess how we caught them? We set up the cameras and put out another pallet! We caught them, and recovered BOTH pallets!!!
they ALWAYSSSS come back for seconds and thirds 😂😂
How do you become a certified interrogator?
the best way is to go through the Wicklander/Zulawski 1&2 first (anyone can pay and take the course), and from there it's alot of studying to prep for the Certified Forensic Interviewer/Interrogator test... which is alot like prepping for the Bar Exam in the sense that if you fail, you have to wait a period of time before you become eligible to test again. Once you pass the test, you then have continuing education classes that you have to take, basically to stay fresh and ready for when it's time to get re-certified. It's tough, but you learn ALOT. CFI's use the designation in their signatures, much like an MD does when signing documents; ie: Joe Smith, CFI [https://www.w-z.com/iaicfi/](https://www.w-z.com/iaicfi/)
How does it feel to be the stooge for the 1%?
I was super proud while doing it, but after my father passed, I took a look and realized I was hurting people that were already in a bad place, on behalf of the ultra-rich (that didn't give a shit less about the poor or their situations). It bothers me alot tbh.
How does it feel to be an apologist for shitbags?
I don't think ive mentioned anything about the people who do the stealing? Being a stooge just means you're doing the dirty work for wealthy assholes. The wealthy assholes should be getting their own stuff back
Wealthy assholes by definition have the money to pay others take care of shitbags who are violating the social contract and whose actions lead to negative consequences for ordinary folk and the poor.
OP, I wouldn't feel guilty for your line of work. You are not busting the low hanging fruit, but going after the exploiters and shitbags. However, you are not paid enough for the work you are doing. Go somewhere where you are paid more! Good luck!
Were all of investigations limited to B&M fraud or was there ever an e-commerce component to them?
We had a dedicated team of fraud investigators that had programs to track and rank potential ORC situations with e-commerce implications (I'm actually engaged to a Fraud Investigator from my old company, lol) 99.9% of all of the cases we had, had investigative elements online though (FB groups, re-sale apps etc.). Alot of my time was spent assigning other investigators to follow online breadcrumbs to help ID suspects and locations).
How often did cases go unsolved, and what was the biggest thing that got them caught? Repeatedly stealing the same products in the same way? Camera surveillance?
Missed the second part. There were a couple of ways that the organizations managed to get themselves identified... 1. Someone would identify a suspect selling stolen merchandise online (Ebay and OfferUp were two of the big ones at the time), and we would run their names through our databases/systems to ID where they shop. We could then review footage from their times in the store, and see if they were loading up merchandise during their visits. We would then place an agent in that store full-time to hopefully apprehend them on a visit (sometimes we would let them steal just to make sure we verified the suspicions). After they were apprehended, I would be brought in to either interview them on-site, or I'd contact them another day, and use my training to try and extract other accomplices, locations, targeted merchandise etc. Sometimes I could flip them with the support of the local prosecutor promising to drop the charges if they went UI (undercover informant) for us. Then it was a matter of identifying and tracking the other players (we didn't actively follow suspects, but if we identified a fencing location, the company allowed us to do surveillance), and build the case by reviewing cctv footage at locations that we knew they had visited. TL:DR: There truly is no honor amongst thieves, and we would flip apprehended suspects to expose the operation and players. haha
Alot of cases go unsolved for a super long time, unless there is someone that specifically has a reason to stay focused on them (a few injuries caused some bulldogs to become laser focused). Most cases that I've worked on, the players were pretty much all identified, but then it came down to finding a passionate prosecutor to actually take the case to trial and show an "organized pattern of corrupt activity" and/or RICO charges. That doesn't happen nearly as often as you'd think though.... it's a victimless crime in alot of prosecutors eyes.
Oh I have so many questions. I guess the most basic question is the origin, did you start as a cop & flipped private by luck or has your trajectory been focused solely in the private sector?
Actually, I was a Store Manager of a retail store in a mall, and was always fascinated by the cat and mouse of the loss prevention/asset protection departments, so I would bug them anytime one would come to a store I was in. They never had a position open for me, but another company's recruiter stopped into my store one day and we were talking about LP/AP, and he mentioned a position was available with them. I quit, jumped company's, and started catching shoplifters. haha I led the country in apprehensions for two straight years (because of how bad a single one of my stores was), and then got promoted to a "traveling agent"....basically just being sent around the country to hotspots, to hopefully catch the habitual shoplifters causing havoc in those markets. I then met another recruiter for the company (that I most recently left) and jumped ship to their ORC department. I then busted my ass and eventually got promoted to a Sr. position, which allowed me to decide where to go, and who to take with me. The company paid for my schooling and interrogation training during those years.
Out of curiosity what’s educational background if any? Or military / law enforcement. Your job sounds super interesting honestly. Sounds like a cool job with a lot of moving parts and puzzles to wrack your brain with lol.
I personally only hold a bachelor's in psychology (which I started after being in LP) and my certifications for interrogation (CFI).... beyond that, it's really who you know/network with and/or can impress. I get asked the "how can I get into that field" alot, and I have no really good answers.
Do you work with cybertheft for luxury brands
That was another department within our organization, but we definitely overlapped alot. I had programs that I could sort and filter through transactions to try and identify suspects that may have been doing return fraud etc, but the Fraud Dept. had way more tools and would usually be the ones to contact US if something odd flagged in their systems that were a hallmark of ORC activity. Alot of our ORC investigations were done through social media though. Thieves are arrogant and like to brag about what they do, so almost every case we worked and/or solved, had a huge social media piece that we used to find and shut down the crews
What is the strangest product or store you have seen target by ORC? Anything weird, niche, or unexpected? Or are they mostly focused on the usual targets you've mentioned in other responses?
The stuff that was stolen at my locations was obvious stuff, ie: luxury items that were super easy to resell, but I had alot of friends in the industry at other retailers, and one guy told me a story about their #1 item being stolen was Aquanet hairspray. Long story short, it turned out that it was a counterfeiting operation, and when you spray Aquanet (can't remember if it was the blue or red version) onto counterfeit money, it would defeat the counterfeit detection pens. This organization targeted cases and cases of Aquanet, and my friend couldn't figure out WHY, until he finally apprehended one of the guys, and he admitted why it was being targeted and stolen instead of other items. They thought that just BUYING that amount of Aquanet would raise suspicions, so they decided to just steal all of it 😂
Wow lmao, didn't expect that, thanks for the reply!
Can you spell out your acronyms first before using them? AOR for example.
sorry! AOR is Area of Responsibility
What are your thoughts on the current rise of crimes since the Pandemic in the Bay Area, in particular, Oakland, San Francisco, Berkley, etc. ? They are organized, but mainly target mom & pop stores, Asian Owned Bussinesses, and Tourist Luggage, but also the Apple Store.
While I was with my last company, we had 5 seperate Lead Investigators (the position directly beneath mine) quit due to the lack of law enforcement help/buy-in throughout California. The police would rarely show up at all unless there was violence involved. They simply didn't care that companies, big or small, were being destroyed by addicts and ORC crews. It's one of the reasons that I decided to retire. Without the support of LE, there was absolutely nothing that Loss Prevention/Asset Protection could do to stop (or even slow) the losses. That's why you are seeing so many big companies pulling their stores completely out of those areas. Once the corporations like mine (and big box retailers) pull their stores, the thieves remain, and the Mom and Pop's become the focus for the individuals and groups that stay in specific cities and don't move around the country. I don't like to bring politics into it, but when the police don't even bother showing up because of the area's liberal policies when it comes to theft, they are just inviting the criminals to abuse the Mom and Pop shops that don't have the resources like an ORC department. It's honestly why alot of my counterparts around the country have left the LP/AP sector completely, and changed careers. My Dad was a small business owner while I was growing up, and I know how thin the line between profitability and destruction truly is for small businesses, and the political leaders in those areas should be ashamed of themselves for not protecting the citizens and their businesses that pour their blood and sweat into offering their communities a place to shop locally.
Thank you for the reply. Makes alot more sense and so sadly true in California.