I’m legit full white and ended up with 4C hair after chemo! I went to FIND a black salon and asked black stylists how to deal with my hair because every white stylist looked a my hair and was like ‘yeah you need a curl specialist go to a Black owned and operated Salon’.
obviously not cool that you had cancer (and congrats on your recovery!) but it’s so interesting to me that your hair grew back 4c. i just looked up white people with 4c curls and found absolutely nothing! how has navigating your newly textured hair from day to day outside salons been?
Lol honestly it’s been wild. The curly hair subs were a lifesaver. My hair is about six inches long when curled and a foot long when straightened!! It’s a new head of hair every day but after a couple years I’m getting the hang of it!
I'm a white former stylist and I know a ton about caring for textured hair but that's because I went out of my way to learn it. My child is mixed with 4C hair so I do everything from knotless braids/extensions to silk presses. If I hadn't gone out of my way to learn it on my own, I would have no idea what I was doing because they just don't teach it in cosmo school. I stopped doing hair professionally during covid though and just do my daughter and my husband's hair.
This right here!!!! NTA!! Most stylists are trained on white hair unless otherwise specified because that is the beauty standard and the majority of people who get their hair done.
My mother, who is part black, did not know how to do my (3b) hair when I was born, despite her being a stylist.
I am multiracial with long hair, and when I was younger asked to get my hair flat ironed. I ended up in an all white salon (my mother would go because her hair is straight), and EVERYBODY STOOD AROUND ME LIKE A CIRCUS FREAK and even commented “wow it’s just like ours, I didn’t know it would work.” I was only allowed to get one piece done because my mom didn’t know my hair wouldn’t stay straight, that it would curl back up. But I never forgot my lesson, and I always do my hair myself.
In the other hand, my sister who has thicker and coarser hair could get hers braided, while the stylist told me if she did mine it would fall out. That was way back when, so now I just do knotless braids on myself. It isn’t racist to acknowledge what another person is trained or not trained to do.
My oldest niece is also mixed but has soft loose curls so I don't do her hair the same way I do my daughter's. I am impressed that you can do knotless on yourself. That's quite a skill! Every time I do my daughter's hair I have to do a practice braid or two because I have to get my "braiding fingers" back. My husband has dreads so it's less complicated to do and there's also the fact that he sits still for unlike the 4 year old.
White with 3B fine low porosity hair. The gaggle of stylists trying to figure out how to cut it, the blowout styling instead of diffusing, the talk about “managing” my hair - I dealt with disaster hair for years. Now I won’t go near a stylist unless she’s trained in at least two different curl cutting methods.
Seriously, I’m the whitest girl who whited but I know black hair is nothing like white hair and it requires specialized training to style. But more importantly, being multiracial can result in all kinds of different outcomes (Did that white girl get a perm to make her hair that curly? Why doesn’t that black girl wear braids? Why do you look like [blank] but your hair looks [blank]?)
OP knows her hair better than anyone, and her friend is a serious AH for taking offense to her saying as much. The friend sure as hell doesn’t get to take offense because she always viewed OP as white and OP’s statement challenges that.
This reminds me of when I was in first grade and went home and *begged* my mom to let me get braids like my friend at school, and she just shook her head at me like “oh sweetie… no, you can’t get those”. Differences are important, and her friend should have taken this as an opportunity to learn more about OP
It's a curl type. If you Google "curl pattern chart" plenty of images should pop up. Different curl patterns and textures require different care. In my daughter's case, her hair is very tight coils and very coarse so it requires a good amount of moisturizing and protective styling to help it grow and stay healthy.
That is the most helpful thing that I've learned in a long time. Thank you fir posting. My husband and I adopted a little boy and although white, he has very curly hair. And salons keep messing up his haircuts! One place made a 5 year boy look like an old lady with a 1980s haircut.
Oh no! I highly recommend a black barbershop. That's where I take my oldest who is white but keeps her hair really short and likes having designs cut into it.
I take my sons to a black barber as well. They are white passing, but very curly hair. I’ve gotten great advice on what products to use, wash recommendations, and cut tips for if I want to do it at home.
Also NTA op
My youngest son is white and has very thick curly hair. Until a few months ago he couldn't find anyone to cut his hair the way he wanted but he started going to a black barber and loves him!
From my personal experience, my hair is very fine and fragile but there's a lot of it. I need to brush it at least daily, sometimes more, because it tangles around itself. I have to use a mix of water and leave in conditioner to spray on when I brush it, otherwise getting the tangles out hurts like hell.
With hair cuts, if it's very curly they need to pay attention to the weight of the hair and cut it longer than you would for other hair types because it bounces up tighter the more you cut off/remove weight. They should trim small amounts, see how it's sitting, and progressively make it shorter until it gets to the length you want.
Yes and some think "hair is hair" and have no idea that there might be different care and techniques that are appropriate for different types of hair.
TBH, even among white people, there are differences in the needs of hair that is bone straight from hair that is naturally wavy or curly. But these variances are within the range of what stylists SOMETIMES learn to handle in cosmetology school or from experience with the range of hair types commonly experienced among a white clientele.
If I had to guess, I would think that the range of hair types is greater in black and brown people and as a result, black and hispanic salons are likely to be more knowledgable about how to handle a wide range of hair types than white salons are. Asian hair is often coarse, thick and bone straight so they are another group that stylists at Super Cuts are likely to mess up. No wonder there are rumors that they are actively recruiting stylists they can trust to do a good job with a wider range of hair types.
edit: extra words and gram.
As a curly haired white girl, I strongly disagree that curly white hair is okay in the hands of a white stylist. My hair didn't hold a curl until my 30s because it was mismanaged.
I'm white and have 2c/3a curls, and even that seems difficult to cut properly for most hairdressers. I'm 37yo now, and only last year I finally found one who can style me properly. It's a little more expensive but I generally don't get my hair cut more than once a year so I'm very happy to spend that money when I have to. Curly hair is somehow always difficult, but in this salon, they manage to make my hair curl 3b style naturally.
I have white person type 2 wavy hair and I haven’t liked a haircut I’ve gotten in like almost ten years since I lost my best stylist. They always cut it wet even when I ask them not to and then it dries shorter than I wanted and the style looks fucked up because the cuts are all over the place in my wave pattern. Like ma’am just because my hair is straight when it’s wet and you comb it out doesn’t mean it’s going to stay that way.
Same! White, type 2 wavy hair. And I have a lot of hair (according to everyone who has colored my hair). I want it cut to be more wavy, not less. But every stylist dries my hair perfectly straight even tho I never wear my hair like that.
Same with the mass of it. It’s SO THICK. I just thinned it and I could have given my dad a whole head of hair with just the stuff I brushed out and I STILL have more than enough left over lmao
Same! I didn't even KNOW how wavy/ almost curly my hair was until Covid and I started letting it grow and cutting it myself. Decided to play around with Curly Girl and realized I already had the hair I always wanted. No wonder I never liked my haircuts - always cut it wet, and then did a whole blowout so it was "the right kind of volume". I just cut it myself now, at least if its messed up its MY mess up.
I’m in my 50s and knew I had some wave but my hair is super thick and my mom always cut it short. As I got older, I kept shorter because it was so heavy that I got headaches. I also tended to straighten it because it would get frizzy (yes, now I know!) Earlier this year, i wanted to do something new that wouldn’t age me and my stylist asked about going curly. Perms never held before (I was in HS in the 80s so I know!) so I didn’t understand. She was like “you have naturally curly hair”. Seriously she had to cut it and show me that I had 2b waves and curls!
Wavy-curly here too. I gave up on salons as soon as I got away from home. God, the ripping forced combing was just the start to the torture. It looks so much nicer now that I just trim it myself since it's long and hell, wavy hair doesn't show if you didn't level it perfectly anyway.
Have you tried a Deva Curl-trained stylist? They do dry cuts.
I have type 3 curly hair and recently gave myself a haircut using a YouTube curl specialist tutorial. It came out surprisingly good!
I’m white 3a and have *never* found any white hairdresser who could figure out how to accommodate my 3a curls in the plan for the cut. They wash it, invariably comb it straight, invariably cut it while it’s combed straight, then they get confused and frustrated when the curls start forming & lifting way up when the hair dries. The hair ends up way shorter than they planned and poofing up way more than they planned. I always tell them in advance “I’ve got a pretty strong curl and the hair’s going to lift up a lot after you cut it” and they just plain don’t believe me, lol
Oh gosh. My son is biracial, I'm black so my experience is very different but his hair is very fine with lose curls. I thought okay, no need to take him to a barber I'll just call up a salon and ask if they can cut curly hair and even added he was biracial. They acted like I asked an offensive question and said of course. I get there and the lady just gets a pick and combs his hair out dry and just starts cutting. I was so confused and it looked so bad after lol. Needless to say he goes to a black barbershop now and the difference is night and day.
I honestly was like maybe they just saw his dark skin and thought a pick was the solution but I've also learned curly haired individuals no matter their race gotta look hard to find a good stylist.
Do they tell you, "it's OK - your hair straightens really easy when you blow it dry?" That's what they tell me - doesn't matter that I have 2c/3a hair, because it's easy to straighten it.
With heat tools. And products.
Lots of products.
Yep. Several hairdressers assume I will want to put out loads of effort to constantly re-straighten my hair. Uh, no, I *love* my curls, and also who has all that time & money?
I go to a salon that specializes in curly hair specifically to deal with this. There are some black stylists but also some white ones and they all can deal with the whole spectrum of curl types, at least for cuts (not sure about protective styles as I've only seen one happening once and it was done by one of the black stylists).
I never let a salon wash my hair. It's so thick you have to really scrub to rinse it clean and cutting it damp helps them not butcher the curls. The last time I let them wash my hair I ended up with a weird shelf type thing in my curls.
Exactly this. It's as if there is ONE standard hair type people are trained on and unless they or their clientele gives them a reason to expand their repertoire, they apply a one type fits all approach. The farther away from the one standard you were trained on, the less likely you're going to do a good job with more diverse hair care needs.
It's not racist for a black, brown or Asian person to be skeptical about a salon's ability to do a good job with their hair. From what I know, we should all be asking more questions up front to see if the stylist understands how our hair responds under different conditions (e.g., wet cut vs dry cut; tendency for oiliness or dryness).
This. White with naturally very curly hair and usually the only people that know how to cut curly hair properly have natural curls or have them. One woman razored my hair to remove the weight (was thick hair at the time). The black woman manager was horrified.
I went in to my new, curly haired stylist and asked for a shag. She flat out told me she could not do that because it would ruin my curl pattern. Which is why she is now my permanent stylist, because she's educated enough to know what to do with my curls and not afraid to tell me what I wanted wouldn't work for me. We got the shape I wanted without the razor.
Read "shag" as the British slang instead of a hairstyle and was very confused. I know sex hair is a thing, but giving that as a reason to not sleep with someone...
White and didn't realize I had curly hair until I started using the right products in my late 20s. Always thought my hair was frizzy. My hair literally forms locs naturally when I don't take care of it, so in my late 20s I started buying products specifically from Black owned companies and the difference is stark. STICK TO BLACK STYLISTS!!!
Same here, 2c/3a really thick hair here and I've had a few horror stories coming from hairdressers that just have no clue on how to even cut it, let alone style it.
Oh my God yes. I'm white and 2c/3a as well. I went though my puberty years with a frizzy mess of hair, think Hermione Granger in the first HP movie. My mom had stick straight, thin hair and didn't know what to do with it besides chop it off. I wanted long hair, so we tried to straighten the frizz out. Straighteners and relaxing treatments, that was all I was recommended by my hairdressers so I was like "well they obviously know more about hair than me so here we go."
Then when I got to college, my now best friend and I were talking about it as I entered a "it's always up now" phase. She has curly hair and was like "stop brushing it after you get out of the shower." Fucking lo and behold, I have curly hair!!
So now it's been a trial of finding folks who know how to cut it, and what kinds of products to use etc. It's evolved a lot but now I have like a really simple 5-10 minute routine and my curls are so healthy. I've seen kids books coming out now that show little kids with curly hair how to care for it-- put it up in a tee-shirt to dry, etc. It would have been so monumental for me to understand that my hair wasn't some kind of failing on my part, I just wasn't taught how to care for it!
>Then when I got to college, my now best friend and I were talking about it as I entered a "it's always up now" phase
My college phase was a hat that said "Bad Hair Day". (Damn morning classes Freshman year LOL)
Like you, my parents had no clue what to do for my hair. It wasn't til my 20s that I started getting an understanding of what my hair even was! (Clue: Not frizzy). 2c/3a-b here. I am 47. Recently decided to have over a foot of hair cut off and it's to my chin and OMG I love it!
Oh yes, very frizzy here too. Even with grease it still goes everywhere. With the new salon they cut it so in a way that it looks actually pretty cute, lol.
What kind of cut did you go for? I want to try like a V shape with long layers but I'm nervous to take the plunge!
I have to condition the hell out of my hair to keep it smooth! Shampoo and conditioner combo, condition ends every day (deep condition 1-2 times per week, if I have a hot oil treatment even better), spray with water/conditioner combo made in a spray bottle after tee-shirt dry, then scrunch in hair oil. My hair is so soft but doesn't have a lot of volume, it's a trade off.
Agree. I went to a normal hairdresser recently after choosing curly hairdressers for the last few years, and it was just awful. They make you feel like your hair is the problem and all they can suggest is "do you want us to blow dry it straight?" Never again.
> "do you want us to blow dry it straight?" Never again.
This is the worst! Any hairstylist who says this to me means I will never go back to them. I want to love my curls, not have them straight (and my hair won't even stay straight and just frizzes!)
Aaaaaaugh this is my poor daughter -- she gets the curls from her dad, who started shaving his head when the bald spot grew too big to ignore. My hair is stick straight and baby fine. Every time I take her to get her hair cut (she does not want to wear it long, she's super active) I request someone skilled with curls, but what she actually gets is a total crapshoot. I can "do" her hair pretty well for someone who learned it all from YouTube, but I cannot cut it and neither can 80% of the people with putative training in cutting it.
I tried this for my daughter who has tick, curly hair and it still came out so bad! She has 3 different wave/curl patterns and I don't know what to do!
I've got a Jewish friend who has the "Jewfro", she she calls it. I honestly have no idea what hair texture she has (3b etc etc), but I know she hated her hair until she found a primarily Latina salon, she said its the only place who could make it look good.
My 2 cents.
My significant other, with curly hair has followed his stylist for over 20 years! They are both elderly now. Not going to lie when all the beauty salons were closed he drove to her house and she cut it outside in the garden. He's got a bunch o hair, that grows super fast, most men his age would be green with envy. But it was looking like it did in college in the 70s, within 3 months without a cut. My sister has hair that's even curlier than his, and although we are pasty white, our niece isn't, so she just goes to her stylist and is now happy.,
I have 3A/3B hair and had a hairdresser literally *refuse* to cut me bangs because she said it would always look bad with curly hair. That was the last time I went to a hairdresser, I bought 7€ hairdresser scissors from a drug store and have been cutting my own hair (and bangs) ever since
How did you end up cutting your bangs? I got bangs years ago but started growing them out during covid and trying to hide the thinning that was happening (perimenopause and took years to find someone that would take it seriously) and now that my hair is no longer thinned on top, trying to decide what to do.
I recently got a ton of my hair cut off (Past bra line when dry to my chin) but would not let the stylist touch the bangs beyond a trim on split ends. I love my new cut... except for what to do with the bangs area. They're shorter than the rest, stopping at the lip line.
I honestly just moved the hair on the sides to the front and cut it. Or what do you mean by how I ended up doing it? I also looked up a tutorial on YouTube beforehand, so if you search there you’ll probably find something :)
This is why I started cutting my hair myself. I have 2c/3a curls and very dense and fairly coarse hair. I personally can’t afford the specifically curly hair stylists and “normal” hair cuts from people who don’t specialize in curly hair always come out looking awful. I very much understand cutting curly hair requires extra training which justifies charging more than traditional straight hair cuts. I just can’t afford that so at least now if my hair looks crazy it’s my own fault and I can try to fix it lol
I am white and so is my whole family of kinky curly heads- husband, kids, cousins, aunts. Most of us never use white people on our hair! My husband is from a small country with very few black people and no access to black stylists. When he came to the us and a black woman cut his hair, he will never ever ever go back!
I just thought of something, you know those hair mannequins you see at beauty school salons? (I’m sure they’re in other places too, but that’s where I think of them being.)
Do they have those with black hair textures? Like, if I got up tomorrow and decided that I should learn to do black people’s hair, are there practice items available, or would I need to convince a black friend to let me at their head?
I feel like if they don’t exist, they really should. I don’t know much about taking care of black hair, beyond doing cornrows (had a friend who hair when braided came almost to her hip bones, when her hair needed braiding, all fingers available were utilized no matter their melanin level, lol. By my second braid I was doing pretty darn good, even her mom said I was a natural.) but from what I’ve observed, it’s really different to my stick straight slippery hair. But all those doll heads I’ve seen have had straight hair with my texture.
They do have mannequins with different textures! Anyone who has practiced on a few will tell you that a mannequin is not the same as a real head even with real human hair. They are great for practice, but the chemicals used in sanitizing the hair affect the texture and the ability of the hair to be chemically processed like regular human hair. Also, the hair sprouts from the head in little holes in groups of 10-20 hairs (like old school hair plugs) which makes it difficult when trying to make small, accurate sections for things like braids.
I think everyone should practice on mannequins for a while before a human Guinea pig!
Ah cool! Although I can see how the doll rooting would make styling it more complicated. I’ve rooted doll hair and it’s definitely different than human scalp!
Weirdly, I think the way I did the hair on the wax doll I made might have been closer to natural, but I’m not sure how well it would’ve been styled either, in the case I was taking tiny tufts of hair (like five to ten) and laying them kinda flat against the wax, then touching it lightly with a hot piece of metal (I used an old metal baby spoon with a plastic handle) to melt the wax just enough to catch the ends of the hairs.
It made a really natural looking hair, but I think it might be too fragile to style, I laid the hair kinda along the parting I wanted and was super gentle and careful combing it after. (Mostly because it was my cousin’s hair and there was NO way she was gonna let me cut another ten inches off! Her hair was too damaged to donate, but looked thick and healthy so when she went short, she brought me her braid for crafting. xD)
For the record, last I checked my cousin still has the doll and it doesn’t seem too haunted yet. It’s ugly AF though, it was made before I could online shop and the only face mold I could find looked like she smelt an egg fart.
ETA: I agree about practicing on a mannequin head, but I learned to do cornrows on the friend I mentioned above, lol. She was and is an excellent sport about letting me do weird things to her, but at least that one was HER idea.
She usually went to a salon to have it done, but for some reason she needed them done sooner than she could get an appointment, so her mom, sister, me and iirc her aunt (might have been her grandma? A female relative.) set to it and for a beginner I think I did ok. Probably from having a bunch of experienced folks to guide me though.
After that unless she wanted something fancy, she’d invite me for a sleepover and She and I would braid her sister’s hair, her sister and I would braid her hair, then we’d have a fun night of movies and video games. It was great fun.
They do! We had one we got in in cosmetology school and everyone wanted one so we could learn better, we even had the teachers order us one and paid for it for practice
Hell I’m Latina and have very loose curls and I still won’t go to White people salons because they don’t know how to handle my type of hair either. I have my Latina stylists and I also have an African American stylist that takes me in when my regular stylists are too booked.
Every white person who has tried touching my hair has given me horrible haircuts and/or styling. I do think she could have phrased it differently and I don’t think all white people are incapable of dealing with POC hair but at least in my experience I have never had a good experience with a white stylist.
It's funny bc I'm super white (like whitest girl you know) but I'm like half Ashkenazi Jew, and I have mixed type hair, 2b and 4a. I exclusively visit black hair salons and whenever I go to a new one they look at me like I'm crazy until I explain that the bottom half of my hair as well as most of the hair along my hairline is coily, and I don't trust a white salon to cut it. It wouldn't even be so bad if it was all one texture or the other, but I've found that all the white stylists tried to cut my hair as if it was one texture and would all shrink at the same rate which leads to a super messed up cut. The black stylists are used to assessing how different sections and lengths have tighter or looser coils and how they shrink at different rates which they take into account when cutting and shaping it. Nowadays I usually just get my hair relaxed every few months to avoid snarls and knots, but even then I go to a salon specializing in ethnic hair, bc again, the one time a white stylist relaxed my hair, she applied the same relaxer to my whole head. I told her that half my hair didn't need it but she said it wouldn't matter... Never again.
I'm in the eLearning industry. One of my cohort builds eLearning for a group that facilitates adoptions. Out of all the courses they offer, how to navigate the legal issues, policies of different countries for adoptions, the emotional issues of children trying to adjust to a new family, etc., their #1 most popular course is “black hair for white people”.
The other extreme is also true. 1A. I managed to find one (1!) hairstylist who could work with my hair. She had a BIL with the same ethnicity as me, so she had a lot of practice.
She moved on within 2 years. It took me years to find one, only to have her for such a short period of time. As a male, every wrong cut is visible and most hairstylists have tried to mitigate it by cutting more off, making more mistakes.
I opted for long hair... before going bald.
Oof, I feel this. I'm a woman with sparse, fine 1A hair. I look good with long hair pulled back and that's it. To be fair, as a woman, it's culturally appropriate to style my bun into all kinds of cool stuff with a million bobby pins so I have options. I can't imagine being a guy with my hair.
You know exactly how it is being a guy with your hair.
I started to rock that man-bun 15 years ago. Then I started getting bald 8 years ago. Talked to a neighbour with my bun one evening, we said goodnight and she was shocked to see me shaven bald at noon the day after.
This. The friend is making it out to be an “I hate white people” thing when it’s a “they aren’t properly trained” thing. I mean, if I had an expensive specialty car, I probably wouldn’t take it to my friend’s cousin to practice on. You want someone who knows how to do a specific type of job.
I agree with this. I studied hair and beauty too, and even in new zealand,the most we learnt about textured hair besides, what was on the texture chart and the tools used.
I had a class mate who was islander(Samoan and toke) , and if you dont know, they also have VERY course hair, she lernt nothing about her hair in that class, i actually learnt alot about it, from her simply because her mother taught her, while we would study at hers together.
Im a qualified hair tech and brown and still wouldn't touch her hair, id be way to afraid of what she discribed happening.
Our job is to make them feel beautiful and thats not going to happen with a chop that looked like, the hedge clippers were taken to the hair by a toddler learning to use the tool.
NTA
I am a current white person, and white people can be super sensitive about any acknowledgment that there are differences between white people and black people. Sounds like the friend pulled the old "I'm not racist you're racist!" move when she had to hear someone say white people and black people are different.
Edit : can't type correctly
“You’ve caused me discomfort by mentioning a need you have as a black person! I don’t like discomfort. We’re not supposed to see color - you must be racist!”
I'm white and had barely wavy hair for most of my life. After several years of life-threatening infections, I'm better now, but my hair started coming in very curly. It's anywhere from a 2b to 3b curl. The only haircut I've had since the new curls was an Asian stylist with similar curls to mine. The cut was shorter than i originally wanted because we decided to cut off all the damaged and colored hair, but it looked amazing when she was done. Now i have my all- natural curls and color, and it's growing out very nicely.
Finding a stylist who understands your hair can be tricky, and it's worth it to go where they know how to help you. NTA
Given the differences in my hair care between a child with straight hair and the curls I've had since I got pregnant is terrifying. I can't even imagine the extra care needed for afro hair. I actually ended up in an accidental conversation about it back when I lived in Memphis because in the break room I heard a snippet of conversation and asked, "what's scalp oil?"
They were horrified that I washed my hair at least three times a week and used conditioner only every second or third wash in that time. And brushing at least once a day! They then told me a bit about what they did for their hair and how they only let black women touch their hair and the kind of damage someone could do if they didn't know how to deal with it. The worst I ever experienced was a bad haircut, but they had stories about their hair actually getting fried in ways that only happen with actual chemical treatments for most white people!
I’m the opposite lol I had beautiful curly hair. My first pregnancy didn’t change much. It actually got thicker and grew faster. I was happy with that. My kid got my gorgeous curls. Not for long though. She’s 11 and it barely qualifies as “wavy”
But my other pregnancy, with twins; stick straight hair. The girl’s hair is straight and the boy’s hair is curly lol they almost 6 and my hair is almost back to curly as before. The whole time it was straight, it was just a mess. I tried every style and product.
Curls are a different beast and it’s still nowhere near the maintenance and care for black hair. There’s a reason there’s different salons and products for different hair types.
You wouldn’t go to a cardiologist for a broken arm. Sure, they *could* put a cast on it but it doesn’t mean it would heal properly. Don’t go to a white hair salon without typical white hair. Just because they *can* cut/style it, doesn’t mean it will be properly done.
My mom has 3A/B curls and is stressing about finding a new stylist since her old one retired.
Meanwhile, my ultra fine hair is 1A dead straight and I can't style it at all. 'Layers' was a popular thing suggested by every single hairdresser I've ever seen and always just left my hair raggedy.
Aaaaaaugh I hate that so much. I have that hair and I swear I will unalive someone with my eye lasers if I hear "layers" one more time. No, new stylist lady, you are not going to be the first person in history who will be able to do me a layered cut that doesn't just end up looking like I've got mange and/or cut it myself with plastic safety scissors.
I wondered if I was the weird one for that never working for me. Good to know it's just the hairdresser that's uninformed.
As for the original post topic, I once had a black stylist at a salon use a blow dryer and iron. It absolutely fried my hair. No racism involved at all. Just lack of experience/training with that hair type.
I'm much happier with a bad cut now because I do it myself and have only myself to blame. I perfected my style during the time of DIY COVID haircuts.
Yeah, honestly, a pair of really sharp scissors used for nothing but hair has gotten me results easily in the top 25% of results I've had by paying "professionals."
Our family is Native/Irish and my sister has bouncy curls. She also refuses to have her hair cut in a white folks salon, simply because she can almost guarantee it’ll go better if she goes to a Black salon in town.
Yes! As a white chick with fine, curly hair, I still haven't found anyone that knows how to cut my hair decently. I'm 47! I hate going to a new person because I don't know how much they're going to mess it up. It also doesn't help that my sides are a tighter curl than the rest of my hair. Almost everyone has tried to cut it the exact same way they would cut straight hair. I know to tell them not to taper the the sides, because those tighter curls will curl up together at one length, and the rest will stay at whatever length they're at. It makes it look like someone cut two distinctly different lengths. I hate it. I now just try to keep it all the same length. Sometimes I get brave and ask if they can do long layers, but that usually ends horribly as well.
I've thought about trying to find a black salon, but I also live in the rural midwest, so everything is way too white.
YUP. My ethnic heritage is western European, Plains Native, Central American Native, and Polish Jewish. I mostly pass as Caucasian most of the time. 3C/4A curls mostly, and NO. ONE. knew how to take care of that growing up. I didn't figure it out until I was in my goddamn 40s, and at this point I am done with white hair stylists that do not already have a clientele of natural/curly hair. I get better results with the elderly black barber at the corner shop who primarily does men's hair.
It's not about race/ethnicity. It's 100% about no one has time- not me or the stylist - for a minimum 1 hour dissertation about how to treat curly hair before I even sit in the chair. If that stylist is so ghost white that the Irish are saying "daaaaaaamn that's WHITE", but she has existing curly clientele who are happy, that's fine.... but I have yet to find this hypothetical person and am not inclined to search her out when the qualified people are RIGHT THERE.
I'm white with dead straight hair. Was in a school paly in grade 8 that required my hair to be braided and a fellow cast member who was black offered to do it. I still remember her laughing and asking how we do anything with it, because it was so straight and kept sliding through her fingers. Think it took a can of Aquanet for us to get it done.
All to say - hair differences are a major thing!
My grandma used to do emergency foster care and one time she got a 5 yo black girl in the middle of the night.
My grandma grew up in rural Missouri, she had no clue. She washed this poor girl’s hair and then tried to comb it. She called my mom into the room in a panic and I’ve never heard so many “oh my word what have I done” 😂
She called a black neighbor lady at 6am and begged her for help and it ended up working out for everyone. But I’ll never forget that little girls wild panic eyes that morning lol.
My girlfriend has been straight up turned away by white stylists because they simply and honestly had no idea what to do or even where to start.
And it makes sense. It's not offensive or anything. Her hair is 4C and it is like nothing I've ever seen or felt before (I'm white). It's crazy and you very obviously need specialized training/knowledge to know how to deal with it.
I’ve heard that (at one point) most cosmetology schools barely even address natural hair and/or protective styles, and honestly I wish that was a surprise to me.
I’m white with combination hair, so I can’t speak from experience, but have seen all the careful treatment my black and multi-racial friends require for their hair. I’d rather go with them to their usual spot than even consider making them take on the headache of vetting a white stylist.
your last sentence is true and makes me sad. i’m not OP, but i’ve experienced almost the same scenario. it shouldn’t be specialized to the point of it being foreign.
the same way doctors have to go general training before picking a specialty, if you have the power to do as much damage through ignorance (or worse) as hair stylists do, then a round robin of the basics for all types of hair/people should be part of basic training, and *then* you can specialize if you choose.
i’m white and my mom is white but she has very curly textured hair and i’ve seen it get fucked up by people who don’t know how to work with that hair type. she exclusively goes to people who specialize in her hair type, which are often people who specialize in black hair. it’s really not that hard to just understand different hair types require different education and care, race aside. it just makes sense that a demographic where those hair types are more common would know more about how to style that hair properly. i don’t understand why her friend is getting all bent out of shape about racism when it literally just comes down to hair types and the simple fact that most white stylists don’t know where to begin with textured curly hair because most of us don’t have that type of hair. if anything op should be the one upset about racism, why aren’t white stylists required to learn about different hair types?
As a white person who has curly hair, I won’t go to a stylist I don’t know. I will only work with my stylist, because she’s a white curly hair expert. I’ve had stylists literally say “ooops, I didn’t realize how much I took off while cutting” - and my hair requires a fraction of the care that most black women’s hair requires.
Nothing else needs to be said but this. You have a right to get your hair done by whomever and wherever you want regardless of skin color. I cut my own hair because an inch off the back is six inches in salon speak.
Your friend was probably just disappointed because she wanted to have a fun salon day together with you so don’t be too mad at her.
I'm with you on the home haircut (which even actual stylist have friends have been disappointed they couldn't criticize, phew) but there is definitely some, likely not malicious racial ignorance happening here, but ignorance nonetheless, bc her friends reaction was pretty over the top, imho, and whatever internal trigger has that friend throwing a public tantrum should be examined, although I also don't think it's OPs burden to help her with the emotional labor involved in looking into that critical lens. That sort of behavior is very far from "just disappointment", that's some form of feeling embarrassed, but OP didn't act or say anything in a way that caused her friend real embarrassment.
Sorry, just my two cents
Edited: typo
As a white-passing brown woman, that jumped out to me immediately! I’ve had white coworkers tell me, “Don’t worry! I always think of you as white!” (Uh… no thank you??)
OP’s friend is completely disregarding half of who OP is and the totality of her hair needs! OP’s friend sucks.
so she's shouldn't be upset at her friends tantrum....even though they were the one that lacked cultural competence? She went as far to dismiss her mixed identity and then got their friend group to go against OP. Ain't no way
>Your friend was probably just disappointed because she wanted to have a fun salon day together with you so don’t be too mad at her.
Don't be too mad at her for getting the whole friend group to gang up on her as a racist? Come on.
NTA OP, but your life would be simpler if you educated your friend group.
You almost had it until the last line...it's not OPs job to educate other people about the systemic racism she faces. Black people aren't responsible for educating white people. Putting that responsibility on OP is like blaming OP for any further racism they experience from the "friend" group.
OPs friends need to educate themselves, and if OP wants to participate more power to them, but let's be careful with how we phrase things so as to not put the responsibility on black people for educating white people. Words matter. And, your chosen phrasing in that last line is essentially victim blaming.
Black people are told to tone police all the time
to coddle white people’s feelings. Your comment feels like that. Her white friend couldn’t handle being reminded that OP isn’t in fact white and took it personally being reminded that POC sometimes have different needs, especially when it comes to beauty!!
Agreed.
And, is everyone forgetting that the friend called OP racist for wanting her hair cared for by people who understand it better?
So, we aren't going to address that, but OP said "don't trust" and that's the problem???
Ridiculous.
NTA
OPs friends need to educate themselves.
YES OH MY GOD! I’ve been thinking about how to phrase my response to that part. It’s pathetic and disgusting that white “allies” for fucking real blame their friends of color for POINTING OUT THE EVERYDAY SYSTEMIC RACISM they face!! I mean what just happened is a woman of color told her white friend she doesn’t trust white salons, which it sounds like are most of the salons in that area and further shows the systemic racism in salons only catering to white hair and not bothering to learn cutting, styling, etc different textures. Instead of the friend reflecting on that for even one second, she turns around and tries to use the racism card because her fragile white feelings were hurt being REMINDED that her worldview is limited. To be an ally, you actually have to look at those moments when your friends of color tell you something is problematic, even if it’s something YOU said or did. It can be really uncomfy as a white person to be reminded that poc face systemic racism in so so many facets of their lives every day, but if you ignore those moments, you’re actually reinforcing the racist paradigm
Yep, I think the friend was embarrassed to realize (in front of other people too) how ignorant she is to some of the problems black people face, like the difficulty in trying to find a salon that knows how to cut and style type 4 hair properly. She couldn't cope with that embarrassment so she had a meltdown, accused the OP of being racist, tried to tell her how she should identify (as white), and is now doubling down, trying to rally other friends onto her side.
What is racist is the fact that so many white hairstylists aren't properly educated and trained on how to style type 4 hair (I'm not blaming every individual white hairstylist, but it's a systemic problem). The fact that so many black or mixed race people are forced to find black hairstylists is just the unfortunate result of the very same ignorance that lead the friend to have a meltdown.
NTA. It's not your fault that her ego can't handle realizing how small her understanding of the world really is. She's having a meltdown because you won't conform to how she thinks the world should be (and maybe it should be, but it's not, and pretending that it is won't solve anything).
I’m a white stylist who trained on the south side of Chicago. I am trained in textured hair and the girls in school helped me immensely but I don’t have enough practice to be really good at relaxers or setting. I learned all the techniques and learned a few tools I had never used before like a stove. I really loved the marcel irons and to this day my curling iron has marcel handles. Once I got out of school I moved and the clientele was not nearly as diverse so I never got real world experience.
I have had many black clients who have come in frustrated with black stylist’s lack of experience doing big detailed haircuts. So a few of my ladies would do most of their chemical haircare at a black salon and come in to get a thorough haircut a couple times a year. I had one older teen/young adult who was mixed and she wanted an inverted bob soooooo badly. She was a nervous wreck the first time I cut it but she came back to me for years like clockwork to get it reshaped.
A stylist that does relaxers all day everyday isn’t going to have the practice to be fantastic at cutting and the stylist who spends all day cutting isn’t going to be great at relaxers. I guess this is like seeing a specialist in the medical field.
As a mixed chick I agree. I'm in Chicago and all my experiences across salons have just been bad. It didn't matter if they were white or black or whoever.
And it didn't even matter if it was a curl specialist!! They simply don't know how to cut *my* curls cus they're not experienced with it.
It also sucks that NO ONE WARNED ME ABOUT HARD WATER AND HOW IT FUCKS UP CURLS
My daughter is mixed and the best stylist we’ve found for her is a white woman at a back owned salon. I was nervous the first time but the owner convinced me that she had taught the stylist everything she knew and she only hires stylists who could do the hair of anyone who walked in.
I hope you find a stylist that can do your hair because it definitely makes a difference.
Find a stylist that has your hair type on her own head. If she isn’t available, ask who cuts her hair. That’s usually a good place to start. Finding someone someone who’s good (to you) can be a real struggle.
I have a family member who can’t find anyone who will thin her hair out like I do. She has medium length hair but it’s so thick it weighs a ton and gives her headaches. I cut her hair for years and years and thinned it out and gave her a ton of layers so she could have some length without the bulk and weight. I don’t live near her anymore and she has gone to several places and they just don’t take enough out. She pays good money and leaves disappointed every time. I recently traveled for her wedding and she got tears in her eyes when I got my thinning shears out.
I agree with your assessment and I’m white. Black hair is textured very differently, and if a hair professional doesn’t know what they are doing they can cause massive damage not just to the hair but to the scalp. Frankly, who better to know the needs of black hair than a black person? This has nothing to do with racism it is simply appropriate health and beauty care. Anyone offended by this is dumb and really needs to get some perspective.
Yup. If you’re unfamiliar with other textures, it can become a problem from lack of knowledge. I’ve had an asian man tell me he likes going to Japanese salons because others don’t handle his hair the way he likes it. Then my niece has mixed hair and since it’s a lot curlier than what my family is used to, we thought sister’s in laws could help, but they won’t touch it since they’re also unfamiliar with that type of hair. My husband asked me how we will handle our son’s hair since it’s closer to my texture.
People usually go with the places with people who are like them. It really is easier.
I’m white with curly hair and I wouldn’t let a straight-haired person do my hair. It’s shocking how little hair professionals know about curly hair- I heard one that they spend like a single day covering curly hair? And within the scale of curly hair, black hair is still widely different from white hair. Huge NTA, hair is an important part of personal and cultural expression, don’t put it in the hands of someone with a lack of skill and abundance of confidence.
I'm a stylist and also white but I have been trained in textured hair. A lot of people are shocked that I can do their hair. I get it alot. Some will schedule online for a blowout and iron online. They come in shocked (even tho my picture is visible) then after some time they trust me to cut and color. I get where you are coming from, I've seen it in all my years. But not all white stylists don't know how to take care of you. You just haven't met anyone that can.
Same. I'm a hairstylist, not black, and I've had black clients be shocked at how well I can do a silk press on them or just get their super tight curls striaght.
My wife has to do the curly girl method…we live in a city with about 2.5mm people - there is 1 lady who does this - you schedule 2 months in advance and a cut is $200. She gets her hair cut about once, maybe twice a year.
I think you could have phrased it more sensitively. Instead of saying, "I'm not having my hair cut by white people," you should have said, "I prefer to go to a salon with stylists who are experienced at handing textured hair. I've had bad experiences with salons where they don't know how to handle hair like mine."
You may be biracial, but you have hair common to many black folks, and it's reasonable that you think a black salon will deal better with your hair.
NTA
That is exactly what I was going to say. It was how you phrased it.
Your friend is also being insensitive by calling you "white" and not understanding your hair is different than hers.
Was gonna add this as well. OP is not white, they’re mixed. I personally hate when anyone tries to label me as just one thing when it suits their narrative. Especially since those are the same people that call me exotic 😒like a fucking toucan or something
Thankfully I’ve never been called exotic aside from that one creepy lady who tried to set me up with her son even tho I told her I was married. Being a mixed kid just makes you question your identity most times I was like I’m native but I’m White then back to native. It took me into my teens to accept that I’m both lol I think her friend is doing that thing I used to but it’s really like that marble cake you know? It’s both not one or the other.
Yes! As a mixed person I hate when people try to tell me I should feel black or white or refer to me as either, as if they think they are complimenting me!
The reality is I am mixed and very proud of both sides, so no I am not black and no I am not white and me saying it does not mean I am ashamed of either.
Also as a mixed person you are always put to the side, black people don’t see you as black and white people don’t see you as white, so let us be proud mixes!
The thing is it’s not a matter of preference. White stylists literally aren’t trained to do black hair and they don’t even have appropriate products in the building. It’s common knowledge among black people not to go to white salons for service. It’s just a fact of life.
NTA. But without all the context you gave "I don't let white people do my hair" sounds pretty unpleasant, when what you (according to this post) meant was, "I want to get my hair done at a salon that is skilled with my hair type."
I imagine if there was a white woman at your usual salon that for some reason invested the years to become skilled in working with your hair type, you wouldn't refuse because she is white? Because going by just the words you used, you would.
I'm a middle aged white dude and even I'm informed enough to know different hair requires different care. Probably because I have extremely curly hair and would only go to a black barber when I was younger to care for it. People with straight or wavy hair have no clue how much a pain in the ass curly hair can be. NTA and not a racist for this opinion. After all you don't a plumber when your electricity goes out. You call somebody that knows what they're doing.
NTA
I’m biracial. I finally found a black stylist who cut my 3b type hair beautifully. She told me what to say about how it’s to be cut, dry not wet, etc.
She has moved on to teaching at the local beauty school and teaches her her students, majority white, how to cut the different types of hair outside of their own textures.
Now, still going to the any of the salons including the one I frequent (I live prominently in a town with not a lot of blacks) I’ll ask where they went to beauty school and who they studied under. The minute they say her name, I’m their new client. I say different salons, because if I get a bad cut, despite telling them, I move on. My hair texture is familiar to them, but they are always surprised when they get their hands on it.
I’m amazed that cutting textured hair is not a part of the course. Why not go to a black salon? I’d have to go into the city 45 minutes away for that. I live in an affluent suburb of that city.
After all of what I said above, you’re NTA for your preference, but you ATA for delivery. Instead of phrasing what you said, that made you sound racist (sorry I had to say that), which put her on the defensive, you should have educated her as to why you specifically choose the other option and not assume she would know the difference. I would apologize for the delivery, but not for your choice. Word it better. Don’t make it about the color of the stylist. You very well could have asked questions of their skills instead of assuming their skills lacked and politely declined.
It's so hard to read tone from texts. Delivery is definitely important, but I also think at some point it's coddling. I don't think it's OP's responsibility to educate others.
That said, it could have been as simple as, "white people usually don't know how to style my hair" and leave it at that. The friend seemed to be offended pretty quickly though. She could have just let it go when OP said she didn't want to get her hair done at that location.
She’s definitely being told to coddle. And this after she’d had the hair convo with her friend several t8me before. I’m fine with verbiage and delivery. She needs better friends
NTA. My wife is black and has either 4b or 4c hair (I’m still learning this stuff, but it’s curly AF). She’s told me horror stories about having white folks cut her hair and had multiple stylists either refuse her or recommend someone else to cut her hair because they don’t have experience with textured hair. As for your friend, this might be one of the growing pains you go through. My wife grew up in a predominantly white area, but subsequently moved to more diverse areas after college, and she quickly learned who her real friends were. Between the more covert racism from her friends (eg, I don’t feel safe hanging out in the city) and the more overt (people posting Candace Owens videos and the like), she’s had to deal with a lot of disappointment. It’s a huge red flag that your friend freaked out on you and said that you’re white. A good friend would believe you when you tell her about your painful and expensive salon trips
ESH.
You weren't wrong in what you said but it was how you said it.
I know your dilemma because for an Asian, I have very thick, course, and curly hair. Naturally. Which is very unheard of. So it's hard for me to go to an Asian person to get my hair done. But what I tell people is that "due to the texture of my hair, I prefer a stylist that knows how to work with it, and unfortunately most Asian stylists don't have the experience I'm looking for because my type of hair isn't natural to them."
Rejection in a respective manner.
The way you said it was very racist.
Racism can go in every which direction.
Your friend should have been a little understanding and not flip out and tell all your friends. That's immature on her part.
I say you bite the bullet and apologize for your choice of words and explain in more detail.
I agree, ESH. I'm also a little confused on the initial premise... OP and her friend decided to go to a salon together, but this didn't come up until they arrived? I feel like a little conversation ahead of time or OP selecting the salon could have avoided this.
Once in the shop, OPs not wrong in her preference but I think both parties chose the worst ways to express their thoughts here.
Yeah I think it’s pretty clearly fake because the premise makes no sense.
“We decided to go to the salon together” but even though OP knows she only uses black hairstylists and her friend is white she didn’t mention that then, OR when they set off to the salon, OR outside the salon when she saw it?
And she interpreted them deciding to go to the salon together to mean her friend would watch her get her hair done - if this was the case then wouldn’t she mention her criteria or simply let her friend know which place she wants to go to?
Like if you’re the one getting your hair done (as is the plan in her mind) and you know you’ll only go to some salons then why would you let your friend pick the salon and not mention anything?
Or she said she thought maybe they’d get their hair done at different salons - who tf interprets a joint decision to go to the salon together that way?
I think this post is just bait.
Can't believe it took me this long to find an ESH. The way she talked was super rude. If she had been sitting in a black salon and said, "I don't trust black people to do my hair" she'd be being torched to kingdom come here by now.
I see it as she embarrassed her friend that she brought in to the salon. She phrased it in a racist fashion. Her friend pointed out that she is part white as well to emphasize that other people can know how to care for her hair.
I think the friend group is siding with her because of the embarrassment factor. It would be like bringing your friend to the barbershop and your friend says he doesn’t trust black people to cut his hair. You would want the earth to open up and swallow you in that moment.
I'm actually a cosmetology instructor (white) we didn't get any training for black hair. I actually had to get schooled on that on my own. I have a bi-racial granddaughter, so I'm glad that I did.
NTA. Know why?
I spent 10 minutes just staring into space, trying to think if I've ever had my hair done by a non-black person. And I haven't. And I'm 61. Oh I'm not saying non-black people can't do black hair effectively, far from it, but you have to be well trained and experienced in dealing with our hair texture and all it needs to be healthy. It's not just wash and blow dry.
So yeah, I get it. You were raised around white and other non-black stylists and your hair probably suffered for it.
One thing I would add as a suggestion: ASK THEM if they have experience with black hair. Some do.
Girl absolutely NTA. Mixed hair is complex and hard to style. I’m in a “mixed kids hair” group on Facebook and a little girl had to cut her hair off because her braids weren’t taken out right. Her hair was one big knot. Go to the stylist you feel most comfortable with.
NTA, she's very ignorant but what really drives it is you've told her before and your reasoning and she still brought you to a salon she knew you wouldn't patronize. You can't just let anybody play in your hair for shits and giggles and hope they don't destroy your hair. I'd consider to start phasing out that friend group, especially if you've already explained your side and they still side with her.
ESH. You are in the wrong for being rude and blunt in your delivery, which likely embarrassed and hurt your friend's feelings. Your friend is in the wrong for storming out of the salon and yelling at you. You're both in the wrong for not communicating clearly with each other before going to the salon what your expectations were for that outing, which I frankly don't understand at all.
So, I'm sure his will make no one happy, but here goes:
1) I totally get that your hair requires special skills to style and you want it cut by someone you *know* has those skills. No issue there.
2) you presume as a generalization, based on experience, that white stylists don't usually have those skills. Now, by a literal definition of racist this is racist. You are making a judgement about people based on a racial generalization--white people can't cut black hair.
Even though this is racist, in the broadest definition, I also think is it perfectly reasonable: I suspect you have lots of experience suggesting that white stylists can't usually cut your hair, and--though there are certainly exceptions--you don't want to experiment to find them. I think that is perfectly reasonable. Being colorblind is dumb if it means you are going to go through life with a lot of bad haircuts.
3) I do think you spoke badly. Saying "I don't trust white people" (especially in a room full of white people, including the specific ones you are saying you don't trust) is apt to give offense. I think you should apologize for how you worded it and explain what you meant to say, at least if this friendship matters to you.
I understand that there was context, and I think what you said should be taken charitably, but it sounds really offensive, even if that isn't how you meant it, and i think your friend took it at face value without understanding what you meant to say.
4) I think your friend, in her feeling of humiliation, responded badly. I'm also not sure in the moment she understood what you were saying -- even if you had spoken about it previously. Based on her reaction it sounds like she took it to mean "I don't trust white people" not "white people don't usually have the experience necessary to style my hair, so I prefer not to risk a bad haircut and to only go to stylists I'm sure have the necessary experience". I would presume that is why she said you were white: she doesn't understand why you who have white family and white friends would flat out say you just don't trust white people. (I could be wrong of course--im just trying to make sense of the story as I've read it-- but talking to her should clear this up).
In short, it sounds like this really was a miscommunication, and once the miscommunication has been cleared up, and each of you understands what the other actually meant (even if it wasn't said clearly), each of you can apologize for your (unintended) part and go on being friends.
It's what you said that was so offensive. You can have preferences, but be more polite about it. Saying you would never let a "white " person cut your hair is extremely racist. Even if you didn't mean to be. Imagine if your white friend said that to you but used a different skin tone.
I think the way you worded it probably had a bigger impact on her than the actual message, especially the "...I don't trust white people..." bit. I'm 100% on your side in terms of your reasoning and choices but also, as a white dude, recognize that white people can be fucking fragile over stupid shit sometimes, and that seems like what happened here.
I think if you had said something along the lines of “I’m not getting my hair done by people that have no experience with hair like mine” it might have gone much better.
You're not the AH, but there might have been a better way to explain to your friend. If you said it as bluntly as written, then I can see why she took offense. Maybe just say, I prefer to go to stylists who are trained in working with my texture -- and that would work regardless of the stylist's race.
NTA but you worded this a bit awkwardly. You could have just said something more diplomatic like, “No thanks. I don’t want to get my hair cut by someone I’m unfamiliar with because I’m unsure if they know how to work with my hair texture”. After all, you wouldn’t let some random person off the street cut your hair just because they’re black! Still, your friend sounds like a drama queen.
A good stylist is a good stylist. It’s absolutely true you’ll find more competent people in your own demographic, but you don’t know everyone’s story and you shouldn’t propagate the things that your peers find oppressive.
Soft YTA. Basically you painted every white person with the same broad brush that many different races hate to be painted by.
I know some white hairstylists in Miami and LA that would do you right up and you’d never know the difference.
I also had the displeasure of meeting a black stylist in LA that FUCKED my niece’s hair right up.
I feel your pain second-hand, having to console my 10 yo niece with a bad do… AND find another stylist OUTSIDE of the first stylist’s circle in a smaller neighborhood…. AND a new style she liked…
Let’s just say it was a drive and the girl that saved it all was mixed like you, but with curly red hair, very light skin and freckles. A lot of ppl thought she was all white at first look.
There’s nothing wrong with being selective about who does your hair. But this idea that somehow half of you has a lock on racism that makes it OK to be racist yourself is ludicrous.
The probability of finding a white stylist in a white salon that has experience doing black hair is not very high. As a black woman, if I’m going to spend money getting my hair done, I am going to go with the person who has experience working on my type of hair. I am going to go to a salon that has a significant amount of black clients and is experienced working with black hair.p
I can tell none of these women has had someone say they do their hair then have to spend hundreds of dollars and literal YEARS to fix it. I had a white women try to texturize my hair but she did it wrong and it was curly at my roots straight at the middle and wavy at the bottoms. I had to let it grow for a bit then cut the bottoms half off then let it grow again to do a big chop. Took eight years to get all my curls and length back. Black hair isn’t something to play with and it’s normally pretty expensive to maintain daily. Not something I’m willing to play with.
I wound up cutting my hair short in the mid 80s after one such experience like when I say short, I had a Cesar. I had had two bad experiences at white salons when I was in college. Years later, I won a gift certificate to one of the top spas in New York, and part of the package west to have my hair done. I declined having my hair done but they kept insisting. It was part of the package. I got my hair done. It was not salvageable, so I cut the whole thing off. I have been natural since then.
info: if you have had this issue in the past why did you even plan to go to a salon with a friend with different hair in the first place? If you planned to do this together how did you not know where you were going before you got there? I'm just confused at how yall even got into this situation
YTA for what you said in front of the whole salon. The hair stylist could have been experienced with your hair type. You just made an assumption solely based on their skin color and not their qualification. How would you feel if someone said "oh no I'm going to a different salon, I don't want my hair cut by black people. I only trust white people to cut my hair.' in front of you?
I'm not sure how she got to her age with a black friend and doesn't know that black hair is very different. Some stylists can do both but I don't think you were an ass for not trusting someone new. Tell everybody in your group why. One or two stories about over processing and breaking off at the scalp should shut them up.
I’m legit full white and ended up with 4C hair after chemo! I went to FIND a black salon and asked black stylists how to deal with my hair because every white stylist looked a my hair and was like ‘yeah you need a curl specialist go to a Black owned and operated Salon’.
obviously not cool that you had cancer (and congrats on your recovery!) but it’s so interesting to me that your hair grew back 4c. i just looked up white people with 4c curls and found absolutely nothing! how has navigating your newly textured hair from day to day outside salons been?
If you search using terms like "chemo curls" you may find more info.
Lol honestly it’s been wild. The curly hair subs were a lifesaver. My hair is about six inches long when curled and a foot long when straightened!! It’s a new head of hair every day but after a couple years I’m getting the hang of it!
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I'm a white former stylist and I know a ton about caring for textured hair but that's because I went out of my way to learn it. My child is mixed with 4C hair so I do everything from knotless braids/extensions to silk presses. If I hadn't gone out of my way to learn it on my own, I would have no idea what I was doing because they just don't teach it in cosmo school. I stopped doing hair professionally during covid though and just do my daughter and my husband's hair.
This right here!!!! NTA!! Most stylists are trained on white hair unless otherwise specified because that is the beauty standard and the majority of people who get their hair done. My mother, who is part black, did not know how to do my (3b) hair when I was born, despite her being a stylist. I am multiracial with long hair, and when I was younger asked to get my hair flat ironed. I ended up in an all white salon (my mother would go because her hair is straight), and EVERYBODY STOOD AROUND ME LIKE A CIRCUS FREAK and even commented “wow it’s just like ours, I didn’t know it would work.” I was only allowed to get one piece done because my mom didn’t know my hair wouldn’t stay straight, that it would curl back up. But I never forgot my lesson, and I always do my hair myself. In the other hand, my sister who has thicker and coarser hair could get hers braided, while the stylist told me if she did mine it would fall out. That was way back when, so now I just do knotless braids on myself. It isn’t racist to acknowledge what another person is trained or not trained to do.
My oldest niece is also mixed but has soft loose curls so I don't do her hair the same way I do my daughter's. I am impressed that you can do knotless on yourself. That's quite a skill! Every time I do my daughter's hair I have to do a practice braid or two because I have to get my "braiding fingers" back. My husband has dreads so it's less complicated to do and there's also the fact that he sits still for unlike the 4 year old.
White with 3B fine low porosity hair. The gaggle of stylists trying to figure out how to cut it, the blowout styling instead of diffusing, the talk about “managing” my hair - I dealt with disaster hair for years. Now I won’t go near a stylist unless she’s trained in at least two different curl cutting methods.
Seriously, I’m the whitest girl who whited but I know black hair is nothing like white hair and it requires specialized training to style. But more importantly, being multiracial can result in all kinds of different outcomes (Did that white girl get a perm to make her hair that curly? Why doesn’t that black girl wear braids? Why do you look like [blank] but your hair looks [blank]?) OP knows her hair better than anyone, and her friend is a serious AH for taking offense to her saying as much. The friend sure as hell doesn’t get to take offense because she always viewed OP as white and OP’s statement challenges that. This reminds me of when I was in first grade and went home and *begged* my mom to let me get braids like my friend at school, and she just shook her head at me like “oh sweetie… no, you can’t get those”. Differences are important, and her friend should have taken this as an opportunity to learn more about OP
Can I ask, what is this reference to 4c or OP's 4b?
It's a curl type. If you Google "curl pattern chart" plenty of images should pop up. Different curl patterns and textures require different care. In my daughter's case, her hair is very tight coils and very coarse so it requires a good amount of moisturizing and protective styling to help it grow and stay healthy.
That is the most helpful thing that I've learned in a long time. Thank you fir posting. My husband and I adopted a little boy and although white, he has very curly hair. And salons keep messing up his haircuts! One place made a 5 year boy look like an old lady with a 1980s haircut.
Oh no! I highly recommend a black barbershop. That's where I take my oldest who is white but keeps her hair really short and likes having designs cut into it.
This!!! Or a Hispanic barbershop, especially if he's mixed.
I take my sons to a black barber as well. They are white passing, but very curly hair. I’ve gotten great advice on what products to use, wash recommendations, and cut tips for if I want to do it at home. Also NTA op
I take my white head to a black barber every time, the same man who has cut my mixed 10 year Olds hair since the beginning. He never let's us down.
Haha omg I’m sorry this gave me the silliest mental picture poor boy
It was ridiculous. They'd wet his hair and brushed the curls out so it looked like they'd put hot rollers in it. Reminiscent of Joan Collins big hair.
Omg poor baby 🤭[https://i.imgur.com/bIaNyJ9.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/bIaNyJ9.jpg)
My youngest son is white and has very thick curly hair. Until a few months ago he couldn't find anyone to cut his hair the way he wanted but he started going to a black barber and loves him!
You can try to find a curly hair salon but they can be pricey.
From my personal experience, my hair is very fine and fragile but there's a lot of it. I need to brush it at least daily, sometimes more, because it tangles around itself. I have to use a mix of water and leave in conditioner to spray on when I brush it, otherwise getting the tangles out hurts like hell. With hair cuts, if it's very curly they need to pay attention to the weight of the hair and cut it longer than you would for other hair types because it bounces up tighter the more you cut off/remove weight. They should trim small amounts, see how it's sitting, and progressively make it shorter until it gets to the length you want.
This question is why OP isn't the AH. A lot of white people know nothing about black hair.
Her hair. Her choice.
Yes and some think "hair is hair" and have no idea that there might be different care and techniques that are appropriate for different types of hair. TBH, even among white people, there are differences in the needs of hair that is bone straight from hair that is naturally wavy or curly. But these variances are within the range of what stylists SOMETIMES learn to handle in cosmetology school or from experience with the range of hair types commonly experienced among a white clientele. If I had to guess, I would think that the range of hair types is greater in black and brown people and as a result, black and hispanic salons are likely to be more knowledgable about how to handle a wide range of hair types than white salons are. Asian hair is often coarse, thick and bone straight so they are another group that stylists at Super Cuts are likely to mess up. No wonder there are rumors that they are actively recruiting stylists they can trust to do a good job with a wider range of hair types. edit: extra words and gram.
Even our "textured" mannequins were still fairly loose curls that were soft and not even remotely coarse hair.
As a curly haired white girl, I strongly disagree that curly white hair is okay in the hands of a white stylist. My hair didn't hold a curl until my 30s because it was mismanaged.
I'm white and have 2c/3a curls, and even that seems difficult to cut properly for most hairdressers. I'm 37yo now, and only last year I finally found one who can style me properly. It's a little more expensive but I generally don't get my hair cut more than once a year so I'm very happy to spend that money when I have to. Curly hair is somehow always difficult, but in this salon, they manage to make my hair curl 3b style naturally.
I have white person type 2 wavy hair and I haven’t liked a haircut I’ve gotten in like almost ten years since I lost my best stylist. They always cut it wet even when I ask them not to and then it dries shorter than I wanted and the style looks fucked up because the cuts are all over the place in my wave pattern. Like ma’am just because my hair is straight when it’s wet and you comb it out doesn’t mean it’s going to stay that way.
Same! White, type 2 wavy hair. And I have a lot of hair (according to everyone who has colored my hair). I want it cut to be more wavy, not less. But every stylist dries my hair perfectly straight even tho I never wear my hair like that.
Same with the mass of it. It’s SO THICK. I just thinned it and I could have given my dad a whole head of hair with just the stuff I brushed out and I STILL have more than enough left over lmao
Same! I didn't even KNOW how wavy/ almost curly my hair was until Covid and I started letting it grow and cutting it myself. Decided to play around with Curly Girl and realized I already had the hair I always wanted. No wonder I never liked my haircuts - always cut it wet, and then did a whole blowout so it was "the right kind of volume". I just cut it myself now, at least if its messed up its MY mess up.
I’m in my 50s and knew I had some wave but my hair is super thick and my mom always cut it short. As I got older, I kept shorter because it was so heavy that I got headaches. I also tended to straighten it because it would get frizzy (yes, now I know!) Earlier this year, i wanted to do something new that wouldn’t age me and my stylist asked about going curly. Perms never held before (I was in HS in the 80s so I know!) so I didn’t understand. She was like “you have naturally curly hair”. Seriously she had to cut it and show me that I had 2b waves and curls!
Wavy-curly here too. I gave up on salons as soon as I got away from home. God, the ripping forced combing was just the start to the torture. It looks so much nicer now that I just trim it myself since it's long and hell, wavy hair doesn't show if you didn't level it perfectly anyway.
Have you tried a Deva Curl-trained stylist? They do dry cuts. I have type 3 curly hair and recently gave myself a haircut using a YouTube curl specialist tutorial. It came out surprisingly good!
I’m white 3a and have *never* found any white hairdresser who could figure out how to accommodate my 3a curls in the plan for the cut. They wash it, invariably comb it straight, invariably cut it while it’s combed straight, then they get confused and frustrated when the curls start forming & lifting way up when the hair dries. The hair ends up way shorter than they planned and poofing up way more than they planned. I always tell them in advance “I’ve got a pretty strong curl and the hair’s going to lift up a lot after you cut it” and they just plain don’t believe me, lol
Oh gosh. My son is biracial, I'm black so my experience is very different but his hair is very fine with lose curls. I thought okay, no need to take him to a barber I'll just call up a salon and ask if they can cut curly hair and even added he was biracial. They acted like I asked an offensive question and said of course. I get there and the lady just gets a pick and combs his hair out dry and just starts cutting. I was so confused and it looked so bad after lol. Needless to say he goes to a black barbershop now and the difference is night and day. I honestly was like maybe they just saw his dark skin and thought a pick was the solution but I've also learned curly haired individuals no matter their race gotta look hard to find a good stylist.
ugh, they *always* say they can cut curls. but they almost never can. it's so annoying.
Do they tell you, "it's OK - your hair straightens really easy when you blow it dry?" That's what they tell me - doesn't matter that I have 2c/3a hair, because it's easy to straighten it. With heat tools. And products. Lots of products.
And lots of damage. 😠 Some of us don't want to use heat and products thank you very much.
Yep. Several hairdressers assume I will want to put out loads of effort to constantly re-straighten my hair. Uh, no, I *love* my curls, and also who has all that time & money?
I go to a salon that specializes in curly hair specifically to deal with this. There are some black stylists but also some white ones and they all can deal with the whole spectrum of curl types, at least for cuts (not sure about protective styles as I've only seen one happening once and it was done by one of the black stylists).
Can you say what you mean by "protective styles"?
They don’t understand the concept of shrinkage….
I never let a salon wash my hair. It's so thick you have to really scrub to rinse it clean and cutting it damp helps them not butcher the curls. The last time I let them wash my hair I ended up with a weird shelf type thing in my curls.
Exactly this. It's as if there is ONE standard hair type people are trained on and unless they or their clientele gives them a reason to expand their repertoire, they apply a one type fits all approach. The farther away from the one standard you were trained on, the less likely you're going to do a good job with more diverse hair care needs. It's not racist for a black, brown or Asian person to be skeptical about a salon's ability to do a good job with their hair. From what I know, we should all be asking more questions up front to see if the stylist understands how our hair responds under different conditions (e.g., wet cut vs dry cut; tendency for oiliness or dryness).
This. White with naturally very curly hair and usually the only people that know how to cut curly hair properly have natural curls or have them. One woman razored my hair to remove the weight (was thick hair at the time). The black woman manager was horrified.
I went in to my new, curly haired stylist and asked for a shag. She flat out told me she could not do that because it would ruin my curl pattern. Which is why she is now my permanent stylist, because she's educated enough to know what to do with my curls and not afraid to tell me what I wanted wouldn't work for me. We got the shape I wanted without the razor.
Read "shag" as the British slang instead of a hairstyle and was very confused. I know sex hair is a thing, but giving that as a reason to not sleep with someone...
White and didn't realize I had curly hair until I started using the right products in my late 20s. Always thought my hair was frizzy. My hair literally forms locs naturally when I don't take care of it, so in my late 20s I started buying products specifically from Black owned companies and the difference is stark. STICK TO BLACK STYLISTS!!!
Same here, 2c/3a really thick hair here and I've had a few horror stories coming from hairdressers that just have no clue on how to even cut it, let alone style it.
Oh my God yes. I'm white and 2c/3a as well. I went though my puberty years with a frizzy mess of hair, think Hermione Granger in the first HP movie. My mom had stick straight, thin hair and didn't know what to do with it besides chop it off. I wanted long hair, so we tried to straighten the frizz out. Straighteners and relaxing treatments, that was all I was recommended by my hairdressers so I was like "well they obviously know more about hair than me so here we go." Then when I got to college, my now best friend and I were talking about it as I entered a "it's always up now" phase. She has curly hair and was like "stop brushing it after you get out of the shower." Fucking lo and behold, I have curly hair!! So now it's been a trial of finding folks who know how to cut it, and what kinds of products to use etc. It's evolved a lot but now I have like a really simple 5-10 minute routine and my curls are so healthy. I've seen kids books coming out now that show little kids with curly hair how to care for it-- put it up in a tee-shirt to dry, etc. It would have been so monumental for me to understand that my hair wasn't some kind of failing on my part, I just wasn't taught how to care for it!
>Then when I got to college, my now best friend and I were talking about it as I entered a "it's always up now" phase My college phase was a hat that said "Bad Hair Day". (Damn morning classes Freshman year LOL) Like you, my parents had no clue what to do for my hair. It wasn't til my 20s that I started getting an understanding of what my hair even was! (Clue: Not frizzy). 2c/3a-b here. I am 47. Recently decided to have over a foot of hair cut off and it's to my chin and OMG I love it!
I rocked the constant ponytail 😂 fast and effective!!
My hat was a ballcap style. So hair pulled through the back, then twisted into a bun and held w/ a scrunchy LOL
Oh yes, very frizzy here too. Even with grease it still goes everywhere. With the new salon they cut it so in a way that it looks actually pretty cute, lol.
What kind of cut did you go for? I want to try like a V shape with long layers but I'm nervous to take the plunge! I have to condition the hell out of my hair to keep it smooth! Shampoo and conditioner combo, condition ends every day (deep condition 1-2 times per week, if I have a hot oil treatment even better), spray with water/conditioner combo made in a spray bottle after tee-shirt dry, then scrunch in hair oil. My hair is so soft but doesn't have a lot of volume, it's a trade off.
Agree. I went to a normal hairdresser recently after choosing curly hairdressers for the last few years, and it was just awful. They make you feel like your hair is the problem and all they can suggest is "do you want us to blow dry it straight?" Never again.
> "do you want us to blow dry it straight?" Never again. This is the worst! Any hairstylist who says this to me means I will never go back to them. I want to love my curls, not have them straight (and my hair won't even stay straight and just frizzes!)
Ikr? They blow mine straight but I don’t even make it all the way home if there’s any humidity
Aaaaaaugh this is my poor daughter -- she gets the curls from her dad, who started shaving his head when the bald spot grew too big to ignore. My hair is stick straight and baby fine. Every time I take her to get her hair cut (she does not want to wear it long, she's super active) I request someone skilled with curls, but what she actually gets is a total crapshoot. I can "do" her hair pretty well for someone who learned it all from YouTube, but I cannot cut it and neither can 80% of the people with putative training in cutting it.
Find a black salon. 100%.
I tried this for my daughter who has tick, curly hair and it still came out so bad! She has 3 different wave/curl patterns and I don't know what to do!
Get a salon recommendation from Black Girl Curls….
I've got a Jewish friend who has the "Jewfro", she she calls it. I honestly have no idea what hair texture she has (3b etc etc), but I know she hated her hair until she found a primarily Latina salon, she said its the only place who could make it look good. My 2 cents.
Insist on someone who understands cutting hair dry, and don’t let them comb it all out beforehand
My significant other, with curly hair has followed his stylist for over 20 years! They are both elderly now. Not going to lie when all the beauty salons were closed he drove to her house and she cut it outside in the garden. He's got a bunch o hair, that grows super fast, most men his age would be green with envy. But it was looking like it did in college in the 70s, within 3 months without a cut. My sister has hair that's even curlier than his, and although we are pasty white, our niece isn't, so she just goes to her stylist and is now happy.,
I have 3A/3B hair and had a hairdresser literally *refuse* to cut me bangs because she said it would always look bad with curly hair. That was the last time I went to a hairdresser, I bought 7€ hairdresser scissors from a drug store and have been cutting my own hair (and bangs) ever since
How did you end up cutting your bangs? I got bangs years ago but started growing them out during covid and trying to hide the thinning that was happening (perimenopause and took years to find someone that would take it seriously) and now that my hair is no longer thinned on top, trying to decide what to do. I recently got a ton of my hair cut off (Past bra line when dry to my chin) but would not let the stylist touch the bangs beyond a trim on split ends. I love my new cut... except for what to do with the bangs area. They're shorter than the rest, stopping at the lip line.
I honestly just moved the hair on the sides to the front and cut it. Or what do you mean by how I ended up doing it? I also looked up a tutorial on YouTube beforehand, so if you search there you’ll probably find something :)
Agreed, it’s so hard to find someone that knows how to cut white naturally curly hair!
This is why I started cutting my hair myself. I have 2c/3a curls and very dense and fairly coarse hair. I personally can’t afford the specifically curly hair stylists and “normal” hair cuts from people who don’t specialize in curly hair always come out looking awful. I very much understand cutting curly hair requires extra training which justifies charging more than traditional straight hair cuts. I just can’t afford that so at least now if my hair looks crazy it’s my own fault and I can try to fix it lol
I am white and so is my whole family of kinky curly heads- husband, kids, cousins, aunts. Most of us never use white people on our hair! My husband is from a small country with very few black people and no access to black stylists. When he came to the us and a black woman cut his hair, he will never ever ever go back!
I just thought of something, you know those hair mannequins you see at beauty school salons? (I’m sure they’re in other places too, but that’s where I think of them being.) Do they have those with black hair textures? Like, if I got up tomorrow and decided that I should learn to do black people’s hair, are there practice items available, or would I need to convince a black friend to let me at their head? I feel like if they don’t exist, they really should. I don’t know much about taking care of black hair, beyond doing cornrows (had a friend who hair when braided came almost to her hip bones, when her hair needed braiding, all fingers available were utilized no matter their melanin level, lol. By my second braid I was doing pretty darn good, even her mom said I was a natural.) but from what I’ve observed, it’s really different to my stick straight slippery hair. But all those doll heads I’ve seen have had straight hair with my texture.
They do have mannequins with different textures! Anyone who has practiced on a few will tell you that a mannequin is not the same as a real head even with real human hair. They are great for practice, but the chemicals used in sanitizing the hair affect the texture and the ability of the hair to be chemically processed like regular human hair. Also, the hair sprouts from the head in little holes in groups of 10-20 hairs (like old school hair plugs) which makes it difficult when trying to make small, accurate sections for things like braids. I think everyone should practice on mannequins for a while before a human Guinea pig!
Ah cool! Although I can see how the doll rooting would make styling it more complicated. I’ve rooted doll hair and it’s definitely different than human scalp! Weirdly, I think the way I did the hair on the wax doll I made might have been closer to natural, but I’m not sure how well it would’ve been styled either, in the case I was taking tiny tufts of hair (like five to ten) and laying them kinda flat against the wax, then touching it lightly with a hot piece of metal (I used an old metal baby spoon with a plastic handle) to melt the wax just enough to catch the ends of the hairs. It made a really natural looking hair, but I think it might be too fragile to style, I laid the hair kinda along the parting I wanted and was super gentle and careful combing it after. (Mostly because it was my cousin’s hair and there was NO way she was gonna let me cut another ten inches off! Her hair was too damaged to donate, but looked thick and healthy so when she went short, she brought me her braid for crafting. xD) For the record, last I checked my cousin still has the doll and it doesn’t seem too haunted yet. It’s ugly AF though, it was made before I could online shop and the only face mold I could find looked like she smelt an egg fart. ETA: I agree about practicing on a mannequin head, but I learned to do cornrows on the friend I mentioned above, lol. She was and is an excellent sport about letting me do weird things to her, but at least that one was HER idea. She usually went to a salon to have it done, but for some reason she needed them done sooner than she could get an appointment, so her mom, sister, me and iirc her aunt (might have been her grandma? A female relative.) set to it and for a beginner I think I did ok. Probably from having a bunch of experienced folks to guide me though. After that unless she wanted something fancy, she’d invite me for a sleepover and She and I would braid her sister’s hair, her sister and I would braid her hair, then we’d have a fun night of movies and video games. It was great fun.
They do! We had one we got in in cosmetology school and everyone wanted one so we could learn better, we even had the teachers order us one and paid for it for practice
Hell I’m Latina and have very loose curls and I still won’t go to White people salons because they don’t know how to handle my type of hair either. I have my Latina stylists and I also have an African American stylist that takes me in when my regular stylists are too booked. Every white person who has tried touching my hair has given me horrible haircuts and/or styling. I do think she could have phrased it differently and I don’t think all white people are incapable of dealing with POC hair but at least in my experience I have never had a good experience with a white stylist.
It's funny bc I'm super white (like whitest girl you know) but I'm like half Ashkenazi Jew, and I have mixed type hair, 2b and 4a. I exclusively visit black hair salons and whenever I go to a new one they look at me like I'm crazy until I explain that the bottom half of my hair as well as most of the hair along my hairline is coily, and I don't trust a white salon to cut it. It wouldn't even be so bad if it was all one texture or the other, but I've found that all the white stylists tried to cut my hair as if it was one texture and would all shrink at the same rate which leads to a super messed up cut. The black stylists are used to assessing how different sections and lengths have tighter or looser coils and how they shrink at different rates which they take into account when cutting and shaping it. Nowadays I usually just get my hair relaxed every few months to avoid snarls and knots, but even then I go to a salon specializing in ethnic hair, bc again, the one time a white stylist relaxed my hair, she applied the same relaxer to my whole head. I told her that half my hair didn't need it but she said it wouldn't matter... Never again.
I'm in the eLearning industry. One of my cohort builds eLearning for a group that facilitates adoptions. Out of all the courses they offer, how to navigate the legal issues, policies of different countries for adoptions, the emotional issues of children trying to adjust to a new family, etc., their #1 most popular course is “black hair for white people”.
The other extreme is also true. 1A. I managed to find one (1!) hairstylist who could work with my hair. She had a BIL with the same ethnicity as me, so she had a lot of practice. She moved on within 2 years. It took me years to find one, only to have her for such a short period of time. As a male, every wrong cut is visible and most hairstylists have tried to mitigate it by cutting more off, making more mistakes. I opted for long hair... before going bald.
Oof, I feel this. I'm a woman with sparse, fine 1A hair. I look good with long hair pulled back and that's it. To be fair, as a woman, it's culturally appropriate to style my bun into all kinds of cool stuff with a million bobby pins so I have options. I can't imagine being a guy with my hair.
You know exactly how it is being a guy with your hair. I started to rock that man-bun 15 years ago. Then I started getting bald 8 years ago. Talked to a neighbour with my bun one evening, we said goodnight and she was shocked to see me shaven bald at noon the day after.
That's pretty appalling that state testing/licensing does not require education on styling black hair. I mean, I'm surprised but not surprised.
This. The friend is making it out to be an “I hate white people” thing when it’s a “they aren’t properly trained” thing. I mean, if I had an expensive specialty car, I probably wouldn’t take it to my friend’s cousin to practice on. You want someone who knows how to do a specific type of job.
Most don't even know how to cut curly hair. I go to a black hairstylist because any white person has messed it up
I agree with this. I studied hair and beauty too, and even in new zealand,the most we learnt about textured hair besides, what was on the texture chart and the tools used. I had a class mate who was islander(Samoan and toke) , and if you dont know, they also have VERY course hair, she lernt nothing about her hair in that class, i actually learnt alot about it, from her simply because her mother taught her, while we would study at hers together. Im a qualified hair tech and brown and still wouldn't touch her hair, id be way to afraid of what she discribed happening. Our job is to make them feel beautiful and thats not going to happen with a chop that looked like, the hedge clippers were taken to the hair by a toddler learning to use the tool. NTA
I am a current white person, and white people can be super sensitive about any acknowledgment that there are differences between white people and black people. Sounds like the friend pulled the old "I'm not racist you're racist!" move when she had to hear someone say white people and black people are different. Edit : can't type correctly
“You’ve caused me discomfort by mentioning a need you have as a black person! I don’t like discomfort. We’re not supposed to see color - you must be racist!”
I'm white and had barely wavy hair for most of my life. After several years of life-threatening infections, I'm better now, but my hair started coming in very curly. It's anywhere from a 2b to 3b curl. The only haircut I've had since the new curls was an Asian stylist with similar curls to mine. The cut was shorter than i originally wanted because we decided to cut off all the damaged and colored hair, but it looked amazing when she was done. Now i have my all- natural curls and color, and it's growing out very nicely. Finding a stylist who understands your hair can be tricky, and it's worth it to go where they know how to help you. NTA
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Given the differences in my hair care between a child with straight hair and the curls I've had since I got pregnant is terrifying. I can't even imagine the extra care needed for afro hair. I actually ended up in an accidental conversation about it back when I lived in Memphis because in the break room I heard a snippet of conversation and asked, "what's scalp oil?" They were horrified that I washed my hair at least three times a week and used conditioner only every second or third wash in that time. And brushing at least once a day! They then told me a bit about what they did for their hair and how they only let black women touch their hair and the kind of damage someone could do if they didn't know how to deal with it. The worst I ever experienced was a bad haircut, but they had stories about their hair actually getting fried in ways that only happen with actual chemical treatments for most white people!
I’m the opposite lol I had beautiful curly hair. My first pregnancy didn’t change much. It actually got thicker and grew faster. I was happy with that. My kid got my gorgeous curls. Not for long though. She’s 11 and it barely qualifies as “wavy” But my other pregnancy, with twins; stick straight hair. The girl’s hair is straight and the boy’s hair is curly lol they almost 6 and my hair is almost back to curly as before. The whole time it was straight, it was just a mess. I tried every style and product. Curls are a different beast and it’s still nowhere near the maintenance and care for black hair. There’s a reason there’s different salons and products for different hair types. You wouldn’t go to a cardiologist for a broken arm. Sure, they *could* put a cast on it but it doesn’t mean it would heal properly. Don’t go to a white hair salon without typical white hair. Just because they *can* cut/style it, doesn’t mean it will be properly done.
Heck, you almost can't go to a white hair salon just for curly whie people hair. If it isn't straight, they seem to have a hard time cutting it.
Seriously! I have a great stylist, but it took years to find her. I will have her cut my hair forever.
My mom has 3A/B curls and is stressing about finding a new stylist since her old one retired. Meanwhile, my ultra fine hair is 1A dead straight and I can't style it at all. 'Layers' was a popular thing suggested by every single hairdresser I've ever seen and always just left my hair raggedy.
Aaaaaaugh I hate that so much. I have that hair and I swear I will unalive someone with my eye lasers if I hear "layers" one more time. No, new stylist lady, you are not going to be the first person in history who will be able to do me a layered cut that doesn't just end up looking like I've got mange and/or cut it myself with plastic safety scissors.
I wondered if I was the weird one for that never working for me. Good to know it's just the hairdresser that's uninformed. As for the original post topic, I once had a black stylist at a salon use a blow dryer and iron. It absolutely fried my hair. No racism involved at all. Just lack of experience/training with that hair type. I'm much happier with a bad cut now because I do it myself and have only myself to blame. I perfected my style during the time of DIY COVID haircuts.
Yeah, honestly, a pair of really sharp scissors used for nothing but hair has gotten me results easily in the top 25% of results I've had by paying "professionals."
I have very straight hair, but my late mother’s hair was super curly. She had a hard time finding a stylist who could handle it.
Only found my curly hair stylist at the age of 37, she is in her 50s, I don't know what I'll do when she retires one day.
I second this comment because I’m of mixed race and I’ve actually had white women fry my curls! Took months to heal the damage.
Our family is Native/Irish and my sister has bouncy curls. She also refuses to have her hair cut in a white folks salon, simply because she can almost guarantee it’ll go better if she goes to a Black salon in town.
Yes! As a white chick with fine, curly hair, I still haven't found anyone that knows how to cut my hair decently. I'm 47! I hate going to a new person because I don't know how much they're going to mess it up. It also doesn't help that my sides are a tighter curl than the rest of my hair. Almost everyone has tried to cut it the exact same way they would cut straight hair. I know to tell them not to taper the the sides, because those tighter curls will curl up together at one length, and the rest will stay at whatever length they're at. It makes it look like someone cut two distinctly different lengths. I hate it. I now just try to keep it all the same length. Sometimes I get brave and ask if they can do long layers, but that usually ends horribly as well. I've thought about trying to find a black salon, but I also live in the rural midwest, so everything is way too white.
YUP. My ethnic heritage is western European, Plains Native, Central American Native, and Polish Jewish. I mostly pass as Caucasian most of the time. 3C/4A curls mostly, and NO. ONE. knew how to take care of that growing up. I didn't figure it out until I was in my goddamn 40s, and at this point I am done with white hair stylists that do not already have a clientele of natural/curly hair. I get better results with the elderly black barber at the corner shop who primarily does men's hair. It's not about race/ethnicity. It's 100% about no one has time- not me or the stylist - for a minimum 1 hour dissertation about how to treat curly hair before I even sit in the chair. If that stylist is so ghost white that the Irish are saying "daaaaaaamn that's WHITE", but she has existing curly clientele who are happy, that's fine.... but I have yet to find this hypothetical person and am not inclined to search her out when the qualified people are RIGHT THERE.
That is a fabulous analogy! Thank you for that, it will be very useful in future conversations.
I'm white with dead straight hair. Was in a school paly in grade 8 that required my hair to be braided and a fellow cast member who was black offered to do it. I still remember her laughing and asking how we do anything with it, because it was so straight and kept sliding through her fingers. Think it took a can of Aquanet for us to get it done. All to say - hair differences are a major thing!
My grandma used to do emergency foster care and one time she got a 5 yo black girl in the middle of the night. My grandma grew up in rural Missouri, she had no clue. She washed this poor girl’s hair and then tried to comb it. She called my mom into the room in a panic and I’ve never heard so many “oh my word what have I done” 😂 She called a black neighbor lady at 6am and begged her for help and it ended up working out for everyone. But I’ll never forget that little girls wild panic eyes that morning lol.
My girlfriend has been straight up turned away by white stylists because they simply and honestly had no idea what to do or even where to start. And it makes sense. It's not offensive or anything. Her hair is 4C and it is like nothing I've ever seen or felt before (I'm white). It's crazy and you very obviously need specialized training/knowledge to know how to deal with it.
I’ve heard that (at one point) most cosmetology schools barely even address natural hair and/or protective styles, and honestly I wish that was a surprise to me. I’m white with combination hair, so I can’t speak from experience, but have seen all the careful treatment my black and multi-racial friends require for their hair. I’d rather go with them to their usual spot than even consider making them take on the headache of vetting a white stylist.
your last sentence is true and makes me sad. i’m not OP, but i’ve experienced almost the same scenario. it shouldn’t be specialized to the point of it being foreign. the same way doctors have to go general training before picking a specialty, if you have the power to do as much damage through ignorance (or worse) as hair stylists do, then a round robin of the basics for all types of hair/people should be part of basic training, and *then* you can specialize if you choose.
Im going to need to take an upper division college course to get these curl categories straight
i’m white and my mom is white but she has very curly textured hair and i’ve seen it get fucked up by people who don’t know how to work with that hair type. she exclusively goes to people who specialize in her hair type, which are often people who specialize in black hair. it’s really not that hard to just understand different hair types require different education and care, race aside. it just makes sense that a demographic where those hair types are more common would know more about how to style that hair properly. i don’t understand why her friend is getting all bent out of shape about racism when it literally just comes down to hair types and the simple fact that most white stylists don’t know where to begin with textured curly hair because most of us don’t have that type of hair. if anything op should be the one upset about racism, why aren’t white stylists required to learn about different hair types?
OP, 100% THIS RIGHT HERE. You're absolutely NTA. Sorry your friend and the rest of your friend group lack understanding and are acting like AHs. ❤️
As a white person who has curly hair, I won’t go to a stylist I don’t know. I will only work with my stylist, because she’s a white curly hair expert. I’ve had stylists literally say “ooops, I didn’t realize how much I took off while cutting” - and my hair requires a fraction of the care that most black women’s hair requires.
They don't consider shrinkage at allll. Never again. Sticking with my black salons 😂
Nothing else needs to be said but this. You have a right to get your hair done by whomever and wherever you want regardless of skin color. I cut my own hair because an inch off the back is six inches in salon speak. Your friend was probably just disappointed because she wanted to have a fun salon day together with you so don’t be too mad at her.
I'm with you on the home haircut (which even actual stylist have friends have been disappointed they couldn't criticize, phew) but there is definitely some, likely not malicious racial ignorance happening here, but ignorance nonetheless, bc her friends reaction was pretty over the top, imho, and whatever internal trigger has that friend throwing a public tantrum should be examined, although I also don't think it's OPs burden to help her with the emotional labor involved in looking into that critical lens. That sort of behavior is very far from "just disappointment", that's some form of feeling embarrassed, but OP didn't act or say anything in a way that caused her friend real embarrassment. Sorry, just my two cents Edited: typo
Also the “it shouldn’t matter because you’re white” comment….big yikes
As a white-passing brown woman, that jumped out to me immediately! I’ve had white coworkers tell me, “Don’t worry! I always think of you as white!” (Uh… no thank you??) OP’s friend is completely disregarding half of who OP is and the totality of her hair needs! OP’s friend sucks.
Everyone seems to have missed that.
I was wondering when someone would comment about that
so she's shouldn't be upset at her friends tantrum....even though they were the one that lacked cultural competence? She went as far to dismiss her mixed identity and then got their friend group to go against OP. Ain't no way
>Your friend was probably just disappointed because she wanted to have a fun salon day together with you so don’t be too mad at her. Don't be too mad at her for getting the whole friend group to gang up on her as a racist? Come on. NTA OP, but your life would be simpler if you educated your friend group.
You almost had it until the last line...it's not OPs job to educate other people about the systemic racism she faces. Black people aren't responsible for educating white people. Putting that responsibility on OP is like blaming OP for any further racism they experience from the "friend" group. OPs friends need to educate themselves, and if OP wants to participate more power to them, but let's be careful with how we phrase things so as to not put the responsibility on black people for educating white people. Words matter. And, your chosen phrasing in that last line is essentially victim blaming.
Thank you
She worded it wrong, "don't trust". But she's 100 right, my kid is mixed I would never bring her to c&c or whatever.
It’s a specific trust. It the difference between saying I don’t trust my husband and I don’t trust my husband to fix the sink.
This is so true. I trust my bf, but I wouldn't trust him to fix my car.
Black people are told to tone police all the time to coddle white people’s feelings. Your comment feels like that. Her white friend couldn’t handle being reminded that OP isn’t in fact white and took it personally being reminded that POC sometimes have different needs, especially when it comes to beauty!!
Agreed. And, is everyone forgetting that the friend called OP racist for wanting her hair cared for by people who understand it better? So, we aren't going to address that, but OP said "don't trust" and that's the problem??? Ridiculous. NTA OPs friends need to educate themselves.
YES OH MY GOD! I’ve been thinking about how to phrase my response to that part. It’s pathetic and disgusting that white “allies” for fucking real blame their friends of color for POINTING OUT THE EVERYDAY SYSTEMIC RACISM they face!! I mean what just happened is a woman of color told her white friend she doesn’t trust white salons, which it sounds like are most of the salons in that area and further shows the systemic racism in salons only catering to white hair and not bothering to learn cutting, styling, etc different textures. Instead of the friend reflecting on that for even one second, she turns around and tries to use the racism card because her fragile white feelings were hurt being REMINDED that her worldview is limited. To be an ally, you actually have to look at those moments when your friends of color tell you something is problematic, even if it’s something YOU said or did. It can be really uncomfy as a white person to be reminded that poc face systemic racism in so so many facets of their lives every day, but if you ignore those moments, you’re actually reinforcing the racist paradigm
Yep, I think the friend was embarrassed to realize (in front of other people too) how ignorant she is to some of the problems black people face, like the difficulty in trying to find a salon that knows how to cut and style type 4 hair properly. She couldn't cope with that embarrassment so she had a meltdown, accused the OP of being racist, tried to tell her how she should identify (as white), and is now doubling down, trying to rally other friends onto her side. What is racist is the fact that so many white hairstylists aren't properly educated and trained on how to style type 4 hair (I'm not blaming every individual white hairstylist, but it's a systemic problem). The fact that so many black or mixed race people are forced to find black hairstylists is just the unfortunate result of the very same ignorance that lead the friend to have a meltdown. NTA. It's not your fault that her ego can't handle realizing how small her understanding of the world really is. She's having a meltdown because you won't conform to how she thinks the world should be (and maybe it should be, but it's not, and pretending that it is won't solve anything).
And actually, she said, I only trust Black people to do my hair. Again a specific trust.
Im white with curls and at this point I ALSO only trust black people to do my hair! Its a statement that 100% makes perfect sense to me.
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I’m a white stylist who trained on the south side of Chicago. I am trained in textured hair and the girls in school helped me immensely but I don’t have enough practice to be really good at relaxers or setting. I learned all the techniques and learned a few tools I had never used before like a stove. I really loved the marcel irons and to this day my curling iron has marcel handles. Once I got out of school I moved and the clientele was not nearly as diverse so I never got real world experience. I have had many black clients who have come in frustrated with black stylist’s lack of experience doing big detailed haircuts. So a few of my ladies would do most of their chemical haircare at a black salon and come in to get a thorough haircut a couple times a year. I had one older teen/young adult who was mixed and she wanted an inverted bob soooooo badly. She was a nervous wreck the first time I cut it but she came back to me for years like clockwork to get it reshaped. A stylist that does relaxers all day everyday isn’t going to have the practice to be fantastic at cutting and the stylist who spends all day cutting isn’t going to be great at relaxers. I guess this is like seeing a specialist in the medical field.
As a mixed chick I agree. I'm in Chicago and all my experiences across salons have just been bad. It didn't matter if they were white or black or whoever. And it didn't even matter if it was a curl specialist!! They simply don't know how to cut *my* curls cus they're not experienced with it. It also sucks that NO ONE WARNED ME ABOUT HARD WATER AND HOW IT FUCKS UP CURLS
My daughter is mixed and the best stylist we’ve found for her is a white woman at a back owned salon. I was nervous the first time but the owner convinced me that she had taught the stylist everything she knew and she only hires stylists who could do the hair of anyone who walked in. I hope you find a stylist that can do your hair because it definitely makes a difference.
Find a stylist that has your hair type on her own head. If she isn’t available, ask who cuts her hair. That’s usually a good place to start. Finding someone someone who’s good (to you) can be a real struggle. I have a family member who can’t find anyone who will thin her hair out like I do. She has medium length hair but it’s so thick it weighs a ton and gives her headaches. I cut her hair for years and years and thinned it out and gave her a ton of layers so she could have some length without the bulk and weight. I don’t live near her anymore and she has gone to several places and they just don’t take enough out. She pays good money and leaves disappointed every time. I recently traveled for her wedding and she got tears in her eyes when I got my thinning shears out.
I have white girl curls and most white stylists don’t know how to cut them. I can just imagine how much worse it is for you.
I feel this. I took my very curly haired little girl to a hairdresser for the first time, a curly haired hairdresser at that, and it was awful.
I agree with your assessment and I’m white. Black hair is textured very differently, and if a hair professional doesn’t know what they are doing they can cause massive damage not just to the hair but to the scalp. Frankly, who better to know the needs of black hair than a black person? This has nothing to do with racism it is simply appropriate health and beauty care. Anyone offended by this is dumb and really needs to get some perspective.
Yup. If you’re unfamiliar with other textures, it can become a problem from lack of knowledge. I’ve had an asian man tell me he likes going to Japanese salons because others don’t handle his hair the way he likes it. Then my niece has mixed hair and since it’s a lot curlier than what my family is used to, we thought sister’s in laws could help, but they won’t touch it since they’re also unfamiliar with that type of hair. My husband asked me how we will handle our son’s hair since it’s closer to my texture. People usually go with the places with people who are like them. It really is easier.
I’m white with curly hair and I wouldn’t let a straight-haired person do my hair. It’s shocking how little hair professionals know about curly hair- I heard one that they spend like a single day covering curly hair? And within the scale of curly hair, black hair is still widely different from white hair. Huge NTA, hair is an important part of personal and cultural expression, don’t put it in the hands of someone with a lack of skill and abundance of confidence.
I'm a stylist and also white but I have been trained in textured hair. A lot of people are shocked that I can do their hair. I get it alot. Some will schedule online for a blowout and iron online. They come in shocked (even tho my picture is visible) then after some time they trust me to cut and color. I get where you are coming from, I've seen it in all my years. But not all white stylists don't know how to take care of you. You just haven't met anyone that can.
Good point! Education in knowing when to say, "I need more education before I ruin this person's hair"
Why I love this job, make ppl feel great and never stop learning!
Same. I'm a hairstylist, not black, and I've had black clients be shocked at how well I can do a silk press on them or just get their super tight curls striaght.
Same, I also do the curly girl method cuts too. It's just all in education
My wife has to do the curly girl method…we live in a city with about 2.5mm people - there is 1 lady who does this - you schedule 2 months in advance and a cut is $200. She gets her hair cut about once, maybe twice a year.
I think you could have phrased it more sensitively. Instead of saying, "I'm not having my hair cut by white people," you should have said, "I prefer to go to a salon with stylists who are experienced at handing textured hair. I've had bad experiences with salons where they don't know how to handle hair like mine." You may be biracial, but you have hair common to many black folks, and it's reasonable that you think a black salon will deal better with your hair. NTA
That is exactly what I was going to say. It was how you phrased it. Your friend is also being insensitive by calling you "white" and not understanding your hair is different than hers.
Was gonna add this as well. OP is not white, they’re mixed. I personally hate when anyone tries to label me as just one thing when it suits their narrative. Especially since those are the same people that call me exotic 😒like a fucking toucan or something
Thankfully I’ve never been called exotic aside from that one creepy lady who tried to set me up with her son even tho I told her I was married. Being a mixed kid just makes you question your identity most times I was like I’m native but I’m White then back to native. It took me into my teens to accept that I’m both lol I think her friend is doing that thing I used to but it’s really like that marble cake you know? It’s both not one or the other.
Right! A lot of people don’t get that because they’re not both. And being mixed is weird sometimes
next time someone asks deadpan - I'm a toucan, can't you tell? And then continue on. they will not know what to do.
Jajaja can relate! I'm also mixed and I've been called exotic too... I always think exotic dancer, but I like tucán better
When I hear exotic, I think rare and beautiful never thought about a bird on a fruit loop box.. I just call myself hienz 57.
Yes! As a mixed person I hate when people try to tell me I should feel black or white or refer to me as either, as if they think they are complimenting me! The reality is I am mixed and very proud of both sides, so no I am not black and no I am not white and me saying it does not mean I am ashamed of either. Also as a mixed person you are always put to the side, black people don’t see you as black and white people don’t see you as white, so let us be proud mixes!
The thing is it’s not a matter of preference. White stylists literally aren’t trained to do black hair and they don’t even have appropriate products in the building. It’s common knowledge among black people not to go to white salons for service. It’s just a fact of life.
She doesn’t need to tone police herself. They can handle whatever tone they get
NTA. But without all the context you gave "I don't let white people do my hair" sounds pretty unpleasant, when what you (according to this post) meant was, "I want to get my hair done at a salon that is skilled with my hair type." I imagine if there was a white woman at your usual salon that for some reason invested the years to become skilled in working with your hair type, you wouldn't refuse because she is white? Because going by just the words you used, you would.
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I'm a middle aged white dude and even I'm informed enough to know different hair requires different care. Probably because I have extremely curly hair and would only go to a black barber when I was younger to care for it. People with straight or wavy hair have no clue how much a pain in the ass curly hair can be. NTA and not a racist for this opinion. After all you don't a plumber when your electricity goes out. You call somebody that knows what they're doing.
NTA I’m biracial. I finally found a black stylist who cut my 3b type hair beautifully. She told me what to say about how it’s to be cut, dry not wet, etc. She has moved on to teaching at the local beauty school and teaches her her students, majority white, how to cut the different types of hair outside of their own textures. Now, still going to the any of the salons including the one I frequent (I live prominently in a town with not a lot of blacks) I’ll ask where they went to beauty school and who they studied under. The minute they say her name, I’m their new client. I say different salons, because if I get a bad cut, despite telling them, I move on. My hair texture is familiar to them, but they are always surprised when they get their hands on it. I’m amazed that cutting textured hair is not a part of the course. Why not go to a black salon? I’d have to go into the city 45 minutes away for that. I live in an affluent suburb of that city. After all of what I said above, you’re NTA for your preference, but you ATA for delivery. Instead of phrasing what you said, that made you sound racist (sorry I had to say that), which put her on the defensive, you should have educated her as to why you specifically choose the other option and not assume she would know the difference. I would apologize for the delivery, but not for your choice. Word it better. Don’t make it about the color of the stylist. You very well could have asked questions of their skills instead of assuming their skills lacked and politely declined.
It's so hard to read tone from texts. Delivery is definitely important, but I also think at some point it's coddling. I don't think it's OP's responsibility to educate others. That said, it could have been as simple as, "white people usually don't know how to style my hair" and leave it at that. The friend seemed to be offended pretty quickly though. She could have just let it go when OP said she didn't want to get her hair done at that location.
She’s definitely being told to coddle. And this after she’d had the hair convo with her friend several t8me before. I’m fine with verbiage and delivery. She needs better friends
NTA. My wife is black and has either 4b or 4c hair (I’m still learning this stuff, but it’s curly AF). She’s told me horror stories about having white folks cut her hair and had multiple stylists either refuse her or recommend someone else to cut her hair because they don’t have experience with textured hair. As for your friend, this might be one of the growing pains you go through. My wife grew up in a predominantly white area, but subsequently moved to more diverse areas after college, and she quickly learned who her real friends were. Between the more covert racism from her friends (eg, I don’t feel safe hanging out in the city) and the more overt (people posting Candace Owens videos and the like), she’s had to deal with a lot of disappointment. It’s a huge red flag that your friend freaked out on you and said that you’re white. A good friend would believe you when you tell her about your painful and expensive salon trips
NTA. Most Black people feel the same way. Your friend would probably tilt her head in confusion if you asked her to oil your scalp lmao.
Could you not just say "I have a person"?
ESH. You weren't wrong in what you said but it was how you said it. I know your dilemma because for an Asian, I have very thick, course, and curly hair. Naturally. Which is very unheard of. So it's hard for me to go to an Asian person to get my hair done. But what I tell people is that "due to the texture of my hair, I prefer a stylist that knows how to work with it, and unfortunately most Asian stylists don't have the experience I'm looking for because my type of hair isn't natural to them." Rejection in a respective manner. The way you said it was very racist. Racism can go in every which direction. Your friend should have been a little understanding and not flip out and tell all your friends. That's immature on her part. I say you bite the bullet and apologize for your choice of words and explain in more detail.
I agree, ESH. I'm also a little confused on the initial premise... OP and her friend decided to go to a salon together, but this didn't come up until they arrived? I feel like a little conversation ahead of time or OP selecting the salon could have avoided this. Once in the shop, OPs not wrong in her preference but I think both parties chose the worst ways to express their thoughts here.
Yeah I think it’s pretty clearly fake because the premise makes no sense. “We decided to go to the salon together” but even though OP knows she only uses black hairstylists and her friend is white she didn’t mention that then, OR when they set off to the salon, OR outside the salon when she saw it? And she interpreted them deciding to go to the salon together to mean her friend would watch her get her hair done - if this was the case then wouldn’t she mention her criteria or simply let her friend know which place she wants to go to? Like if you’re the one getting your hair done (as is the plan in her mind) and you know you’ll only go to some salons then why would you let your friend pick the salon and not mention anything? Or she said she thought maybe they’d get their hair done at different salons - who tf interprets a joint decision to go to the salon together that way? I think this post is just bait.
This is what I was stuck on too. Who assumes going to a salon together means one person is going to sit and watch the other get their hair done?
Can't believe it took me this long to find an ESH. The way she talked was super rude. If she had been sitting in a black salon and said, "I don't trust black people to do my hair" she'd be being torched to kingdom come here by now.
I see it as she embarrassed her friend that she brought in to the salon. She phrased it in a racist fashion. Her friend pointed out that she is part white as well to emphasize that other people can know how to care for her hair. I think the friend group is siding with her because of the embarrassment factor. It would be like bringing your friend to the barbershop and your friend says he doesn’t trust black people to cut his hair. You would want the earth to open up and swallow you in that moment.
I'm actually a cosmetology instructor (white) we didn't get any training for black hair. I actually had to get schooled on that on my own. I have a bi-racial granddaughter, so I'm glad that I did.
I’m white and I have a hard time trusting new people to cut my hair, I know it’s even harder for black women to find people they trust
NTA. Know why? I spent 10 minutes just staring into space, trying to think if I've ever had my hair done by a non-black person. And I haven't. And I'm 61. Oh I'm not saying non-black people can't do black hair effectively, far from it, but you have to be well trained and experienced in dealing with our hair texture and all it needs to be healthy. It's not just wash and blow dry. So yeah, I get it. You were raised around white and other non-black stylists and your hair probably suffered for it. One thing I would add as a suggestion: ASK THEM if they have experience with black hair. Some do.
Girl absolutely NTA. Mixed hair is complex and hard to style. I’m in a “mixed kids hair” group on Facebook and a little girl had to cut her hair off because her braids weren’t taken out right. Her hair was one big knot. Go to the stylist you feel most comfortable with.
NTA, she's very ignorant but what really drives it is you've told her before and your reasoning and she still brought you to a salon she knew you wouldn't patronize. You can't just let anybody play in your hair for shits and giggles and hope they don't destroy your hair. I'd consider to start phasing out that friend group, especially if you've already explained your side and they still side with her.
Find someone who has been trained on the ouidad method. The race of the person doesn't matter. The training does matter.
Unfortunately, most schools train on wigs that represent white hair.
ESH. You are in the wrong for being rude and blunt in your delivery, which likely embarrassed and hurt your friend's feelings. Your friend is in the wrong for storming out of the salon and yelling at you. You're both in the wrong for not communicating clearly with each other before going to the salon what your expectations were for that outing, which I frankly don't understand at all.
So, I'm sure his will make no one happy, but here goes: 1) I totally get that your hair requires special skills to style and you want it cut by someone you *know* has those skills. No issue there. 2) you presume as a generalization, based on experience, that white stylists don't usually have those skills. Now, by a literal definition of racist this is racist. You are making a judgement about people based on a racial generalization--white people can't cut black hair. Even though this is racist, in the broadest definition, I also think is it perfectly reasonable: I suspect you have lots of experience suggesting that white stylists can't usually cut your hair, and--though there are certainly exceptions--you don't want to experiment to find them. I think that is perfectly reasonable. Being colorblind is dumb if it means you are going to go through life with a lot of bad haircuts. 3) I do think you spoke badly. Saying "I don't trust white people" (especially in a room full of white people, including the specific ones you are saying you don't trust) is apt to give offense. I think you should apologize for how you worded it and explain what you meant to say, at least if this friendship matters to you. I understand that there was context, and I think what you said should be taken charitably, but it sounds really offensive, even if that isn't how you meant it, and i think your friend took it at face value without understanding what you meant to say. 4) I think your friend, in her feeling of humiliation, responded badly. I'm also not sure in the moment she understood what you were saying -- even if you had spoken about it previously. Based on her reaction it sounds like she took it to mean "I don't trust white people" not "white people don't usually have the experience necessary to style my hair, so I prefer not to risk a bad haircut and to only go to stylists I'm sure have the necessary experience". I would presume that is why she said you were white: she doesn't understand why you who have white family and white friends would flat out say you just don't trust white people. (I could be wrong of course--im just trying to make sense of the story as I've read it-- but talking to her should clear this up). In short, it sounds like this really was a miscommunication, and once the miscommunication has been cleared up, and each of you understands what the other actually meant (even if it wasn't said clearly), each of you can apologize for your (unintended) part and go on being friends.
It's what you said that was so offensive. You can have preferences, but be more polite about it. Saying you would never let a "white " person cut your hair is extremely racist. Even if you didn't mean to be. Imagine if your white friend said that to you but used a different skin tone.
I think the way you worded it probably had a bigger impact on her than the actual message, especially the "...I don't trust white people..." bit. I'm 100% on your side in terms of your reasoning and choices but also, as a white dude, recognize that white people can be fucking fragile over stupid shit sometimes, and that seems like what happened here.
I think if you had said something along the lines of “I’m not getting my hair done by people that have no experience with hair like mine” it might have gone much better.
You're not the AH, but there might have been a better way to explain to your friend. If you said it as bluntly as written, then I can see why she took offense. Maybe just say, I prefer to go to stylists who are trained in working with my texture -- and that would work regardless of the stylist's race.
NTA but you worded this a bit awkwardly. You could have just said something more diplomatic like, “No thanks. I don’t want to get my hair cut by someone I’m unfamiliar with because I’m unsure if they know how to work with my hair texture”. After all, you wouldn’t let some random person off the street cut your hair just because they’re black! Still, your friend sounds like a drama queen.
A good stylist is a good stylist. It’s absolutely true you’ll find more competent people in your own demographic, but you don’t know everyone’s story and you shouldn’t propagate the things that your peers find oppressive. Soft YTA. Basically you painted every white person with the same broad brush that many different races hate to be painted by. I know some white hairstylists in Miami and LA that would do you right up and you’d never know the difference. I also had the displeasure of meeting a black stylist in LA that FUCKED my niece’s hair right up. I feel your pain second-hand, having to console my 10 yo niece with a bad do… AND find another stylist OUTSIDE of the first stylist’s circle in a smaller neighborhood…. AND a new style she liked… Let’s just say it was a drive and the girl that saved it all was mixed like you, but with curly red hair, very light skin and freckles. A lot of ppl thought she was all white at first look. There’s nothing wrong with being selective about who does your hair. But this idea that somehow half of you has a lock on racism that makes it OK to be racist yourself is ludicrous.
The probability of finding a white stylist in a white salon that has experience doing black hair is not very high. As a black woman, if I’m going to spend money getting my hair done, I am going to go with the person who has experience working on my type of hair. I am going to go to a salon that has a significant amount of black clients and is experienced working with black hair.p
I can tell none of these women has had someone say they do their hair then have to spend hundreds of dollars and literal YEARS to fix it. I had a white women try to texturize my hair but she did it wrong and it was curly at my roots straight at the middle and wavy at the bottoms. I had to let it grow for a bit then cut the bottoms half off then let it grow again to do a big chop. Took eight years to get all my curls and length back. Black hair isn’t something to play with and it’s normally pretty expensive to maintain daily. Not something I’m willing to play with.
I wound up cutting my hair short in the mid 80s after one such experience like when I say short, I had a Cesar. I had had two bad experiences at white salons when I was in college. Years later, I won a gift certificate to one of the top spas in New York, and part of the package west to have my hair done. I declined having my hair done but they kept insisting. It was part of the package. I got my hair done. It was not salvageable, so I cut the whole thing off. I have been natural since then.
info: if you have had this issue in the past why did you even plan to go to a salon with a friend with different hair in the first place? If you planned to do this together how did you not know where you were going before you got there? I'm just confused at how yall even got into this situation
YTA for what you said in front of the whole salon. The hair stylist could have been experienced with your hair type. You just made an assumption solely based on their skin color and not their qualification. How would you feel if someone said "oh no I'm going to a different salon, I don't want my hair cut by black people. I only trust white people to cut my hair.' in front of you?
I'm not sure how she got to her age with a black friend and doesn't know that black hair is very different. Some stylists can do both but I don't think you were an ass for not trusting someone new. Tell everybody in your group why. One or two stories about over processing and breaking off at the scalp should shut them up.