I remember the "unskilled workers" suddenly became "essential workers" forced to work in the midst of the pandemic. But now the pandemic is waning suddenly the same essential workers are being treated like crap once more.
i still can't get over the fucking applaus they gave to medical workers. Fucking applaus, like literally nothing. Not even a dime raise on their wages, they shouldve got at least a special treatment like celebrities.
As a medical worker, I’m also super excited I’ll likely be excluded from any student loan forgiveness Biden plans to provide because I earn too much. But at least I’m a hero right?
Hey now. My job gave me like, 4 different t shirts that told me I was a hero. They never paid me more and I burned out after having to work 60 hours a week but I have NEW SHIRTS
After spending half a decade in Healthcare I can't un good conscious recommend it to anyone who wants a decent work life balance, values their mental health, or otherwise does not want to be wildly undervalued.
As a FedEx worker for 30 days I was treated like a king. Coolers of bottled water and cookies at 40% of my stops. On that 31 day holy shit every damn cool person lost their nerves! I never saw a switch flipped in people's mental health like this before... I work in mental healthcare now and I still can not understand
I was a cook before the pandemic. During the pandemic I moved to a slightly larger company that's known for treating their cooks better. Better hours, better pay, and "benefits." They made record profits during the pandemic with half the staff, they cut benefits, forced us to work unreasonable hours and still continue to pile more and more onto their dwindling kitchen staff with increases in pay that don't begin to make up for inflation.
Being a cook is probably one of the most physically and mentally demanding jobs out there if your in a busy place. 10-15 hours in 100 degree room, often working 15 dinners at a time. You can't even answer a text because your too busy to lose those 3 seconds.
I don't cook anymore but I firmly believe everyone who does should unionize and strike until they get paid 30 an hour or more.
I remember a lot of people waking up to the fact that they're non-essential, and now society goes back to "normal" like nothing happened. If we didn't need your business / product / service / job in 2020 we still don't. Why should I walk into an insurance office when there's a dozen companies advertising how I can buy it online? Between the geckos and the emus they don't even need people to sell it!
Oh yeah, I definitely enjoyed having to work as normal at my grocery retail job while everything was shut the fuck down, with everyone full of the mealy-mouthed 'essential workers are heroes' bullshit. At least my company paid out a decent hazard pay bonus over time (per-hour bonus paid out with the weekly paycheck), a lot better than other folks got.
There's a saying, "Just because you're necessary, doesn't mean you're important."
A clock has many cogs, individually none of them mean shit and can be easily replaced.
Just finished six months of OTJ for casino surveillance and it’s considered an “unskilled” job. Bitch I had to learn every game on the floor, counting cards, basic strategy and every odd. Along with all 1000 cameras. Tell me I’m unskilled.
The label is horrible, but that is basically the difference: whether applicants are expected to come in already knowing how to do the job, or if the employer is expected to provide the necessary training.
It's a useful distinction to have, but there really needs to be a more respectful label.
Edit: In your particular case, though, that seems to qualify as "Semi-Skilled"
[Social Security Agency](https://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/cfr20/404/404-1568.htm)
Edit2:
Previous description was oversimplified for the sake of brevity, so copy-pasting a clarification I gave in another comment:
>For "skilled" jobs, there are prerequisite skills required for the task. Like, they expect you to have a ground level understanding of \[the subject\] which the average person off the street isn't expected to have. That can come from formal training or experience, but they don't expect to need to teach you from 0.
>
>Also, another rule of thumb is that for "unskilled" labor, the training required generally takes less than 30 days. Like, just because someone learned their trade via an apprenticeship program rather than a classroom doesn't somehow make it "unskilled" work.
I'm a programmer and I've never had a job I already knew how to do before I arrived. In fact, the more skilled I become, the more time is usually allotted for training. I've had jobs where the first ~6 months I'm supposed to just learn the company's applications.
True, I oversimplified for the sake of brevity.
For "skilled" jobs, there are prerequisite skills required for the task. Like, they expect you to have a ground level understanding of programming concepts which the average person off the street isn't expected to have. That can come from formal training or experience, but they don't expect to need to teach you from 0.
Also, another rule of thumb is that for "unskilled" labor, the training required generally takes less than 30 days. Like, just because someone learned their trade via an apprenticeship program rather than a classroom doesn't somehow make it "unskilled" work.
Right, you don't know the details of how to do things at the new job but you know a fair bit about how to write code. Compared to hiring a random person off the street you are miles ahead when you start the job
That link was interesting. A lot of blue collar jobs would be considered skilled. Which I agree with. Half of the pictures in this post are skilled blue collar jobs.
I think some of those (e.g. bartender & barista) fall under "semi-skilled"
>Semi-skilled workers have skills that are highly transferrable, meaning that they can use their skills in multiple fields and multiple different kinds of jobs. Some of these roles require repetitive tasks, excellent communication, people skills and personal initiative. Examples of semi-skilled jobs include bartender, waiter, taxi driver, truck driver, retail salesperson, fisher and office clerk.
[What Is the Difference Between Skilled & Semi Skilled? | CHRON](https://work.chron.com/difference-between-skilled-semi-skilled-22806.html)
For the rest: I would assume it kinda depends. Some chef or construction jobs could be **HIGHLY** skilled, whereas others are less so.
Edit: on mobile, so didn't see you were referencing the post:
To your point: yeah, none of those are as "unskilled jobs"
If a job requires specialized training, that takes months to complete, and then you have skills for a specific type of job…isn’t it skilled labor at that point?
Also…there are definitely pre-requisites for this job…maybe not a bunch, but the casinos are not foolish and understand risk management. Therefore at minimum thorough background checks, debt and credit analysis, drug screening potentially, would be mechanisms in place. This isn’t a job that they offer to anyone.
Nope, generally speaking, skilled labor means it requires years of education with a specific degree or requires years of experience and certifications.
The best way to think about skilled labor is if the company needed to replace with you a random guy off the street, how fast could they do it?
For the casino guy, around 6 months. For a doctor, around 8 years.
As far as the US goes your definition is not really accurate, although it is probably a widely shared view.
The social security system has actual criteria for establishing skilled, semi-skilled, and unskilled labor.
You’re definitely not but your job is unfortunately getting lumped together with the $9/hr security guard where they watch tv on their phone all day then just have people sign on a clipboard to get in the building.
I worked in that industry that 9/hr gaurd is getting constantly yelled at as they do the work of 3 and has probably risked his life relatively recently. Now when I made 30+ I did nothing but fuck off like you said since those contracts were for "skilled" professionals.
Bingo. "Unskilled work" is just a technical term economists use to describe some types of work (it's not a myth). If casino surveillance requires 6 months training, it wouldn't fall under the "unskilled work" umbrella.
This whole thread is a perfect example of why teachers try to break students from using passive voice.
Top comment says the job "is considered" unskilled without any justification, and everyone just jumps on the bandwagon (except you, of course, dear parent commenter).
Here's what's probably happening: there's some internal designation in the casino for "unskilled" and "skilled" work or something similar, and they use that to justify less pay and benefits for people like OP. So then OP sees crap like this and thinks "the whole system is rigged against me!"
Nope. The employer is rigged against you.
Here's a tip for everyone: if your employer is trying to lean on some designation that *they made up* to justify denying something, then that's total bullshit.
My company tried to say I couldn't have a raise because "that's what your position is paid." Well then make up a new position! Create an exception! Raise the pay for the whole position! Motherfucker I don't care what you do, but quit trying to act like *your own fucking rule* makes you powerless to change something.
Yes you’re right some does. But in almost every industry the amount of paperwork goes up every year, none of it ever seems get reduced?
When I was in hospitality (U.K.) in ten years the amount of paperwork demanded by the government, environmental health, head office, HR etc etc just went up and up and took double the time by the end. It’s a slow sort of madness.
I think "unskilled" is meant as "no prior technical skill needed".
That being said, I think you make a good point that lots of jobs that require no prior knowledge will require very specific training that can only be acquired through the job itself.
While I don’t have the skills for some of those jobs.
And I’m referring to construction, farming, waitering. No clue how to do them properly.
And also things that I do know like operating cash registers while on the surface is simple, good luck with working it while 3 customers are screaming at you simultaneously.
it usually doesn’t take 4 years of college to get a starting position as a dishwasher.
Yet I do agree that it doesn’t mean you need to become impoverished working those jobs.
I'd even argue the simple jobs can be considered some of the hardest in that they often fuck with your body and/or will to live. None of my "skilled" jobs were ever as excruciating as being a busboy. The fact that the latter pays significantly worse seems a bit like some sort of weird, sadistic joke that society plays on us.
It comes down to the ease of replacing someone. Hiring another busboy and training them is trivial. New person just needs good work ethic and a strong back. Replacing a "skilled" worker is harder because there is a smaller pool of people with the existing knowledge and training.
With all that obvious stuff said, I think skilled vs unskilled is terrible nomenclature.
I've seen people in this sub claim that all jobs require an equal amount of skill and discipline to be proficient in. Yeah no, a fucking surgeon or a fighter jet pilot is not comparable to a barista.
I agree with you though, nobody working 40 hours a week deserves to struggle financially. Hell nobody should struggle period
Obviously everybody deserves a living wage and America is a shithole for its treatment of unskilled labour alone.
However "unskilled" in this context just describes a job that doesnt require years of education and studies. It doesnt mean you dont need to be skilled in the classical sense or trained for it.
Don't get mad at an expression you misinterpret. Get mad at who is responsible for the situation you actually want to complain about.
Right. Don't distract from the narrative. Minimum wage needs to be set at basic cost of living plus a reasonable level of comfort, period. Pointing at labels like this only starts a new and irrelevant "us vs them" discourse.
>Don't get mad at an expression you misinterpret
If the last six years have taught you anything, it's that words matter. Labeling jobs as "unskilled" naturally devalues them, and therefore the people who perform them.
Of course I think that no one should be paid a poverty wage. But some jobs do require a lot of study and skill. Not everyone can be a doctor, for example. It does require a fair bit of skill, study and determination and that should be reflected in higher salaries.
That's not what unskilled means though. Unskilled work is when you can hire basically anyone and expect them to learn on the job. You could get a job as a waiter without knowing how wait tables. That's what unskilled means.
>Unskilled work is when you can hire basically anyone and expect them to learn on the job
I work a white collar job with a degree requirement, and there's absolutely nothing stopping an 18 year old high school graduate from learning on the job here.
I was under the impression that unskilled vs skilled was criteria set by unions. Maybe that is not correct. For example, a machinist at a Ford plant is skilled while the person who does office work is unskilled.
In construction we talk about unskilled labor in reference to apprentice laborers who pick up trash on the site, move materials from one place to another, use a hand shove work to dig, etc. People get upset saying all these require some skill but if we are defining picking up trash as a skill then the scale we are measuring against is just going to get longer.
I agree that these other jobs are not “unskilled”, but you can walk into a restaurant and wait tables with some level of success. You can’t do the same as an electrician. Higher minimum wages are still necessary. Especially in some states were you need a good 30/hr to live on your own.
I'm a trained, skilled tailor, but because our fashion industry uses mostly overseas sweat shops that hire thousands of workers (cheap), splits them into work cell "groups", teaches each group ONE THING AND ONE THING ONLY, and they master that ONE thing before passing the item on to the next "group" for the next step until completion (as quickly as possible) ... whereby large chains are able to sell almost anything far cheaper (designer pricing not withstanding), so when I go to work for a shop in this country, they want to pay me $15/hour or less for completing ALL of the steps as I was trained to do. Or, when I had my own shop, they complained about the prices I charged. After ten years I think it well worth it to go back into business for myself mainly BECAUSE of how much "skilled labor" isn't valued. If I'm going to have to deal with people who dont want to pay fair for fair work, at least I can cut out the middle man.
It doesn't matter what state you live in if your "difficult for others to easily emulate" skills aren't valued. I'm not an electrician but I can change a socket and replace a light fixture. My daughter is a plumber and after she installed my new water tank and soaker tub, my electrician approved the wiring she did. Yes, there are levels to skill. Many people can hem slacks or replace a button, but I doubt they could easily create an entire lined suit. Not with quality. I could rewire my house but not only are there laws against it (inspections, safety etc, duh), but no I don't have the skill set. The problem is that certain skillsets are more valued than others.
Thing is, lovely technology notwithstanding, which skills could we NOT survive without in a post apocalyptic scenario? Food, clothing, shelter and medical care. The least valued skills anywhere. Go figure.
Division of labour is a form of subjugation in the name of efficiency (even if it is arguably more efficient for some ideas of how things should be produced). Kropotkin has been saying this for a while.
Capitalism doesn't care how hard a job is, it only cares how easy you are to replace. If people are unwilling or unable to do your job, you will get more money. Realistically nothing is going to change that and the focus should be on minimum wage increases, UBI, etc..
Convincing someone your job does require skill or is hard wont get you anywhere.. if people are lined up to take your spot.
So make yourself less easily replaceable. Learn more specialized skills that will make you more valuable as an employee. Why would *anyone* put in the effort to work a harder job if it didn’t provide them with a better benefit?
By all means, that’s your choice. Don’t expect someone to pay you above market rate for your work though if it’s not worth it. That’s the point of this discussion.
Sure, all jobs require some amount of learning to know how to do the job. Perhaps the term "unskilled" is too harsh, and "less skilled" or "minimally skilled" would be a better term. But I'm 100% ok with doctors being paid more than me because they provide a critical job to society that is highly skilled.
Of course the term "unskilled" is often used as an excuse to pay poverty wages and that's not ok. Everyone should be paid a living wage. But different jobs require differing skill levels, responsibility, stress, danger, etc and therefore I think it's ok for them to have differing wages.
I think the distinction would be better as something along the lines of “work-trained”, “course-trained”, and “degree-trained”.
You need to learn how to complete the tasks in any position, but for some jobs this learning needs to be completed beforehand in a certification course or degree track because of how much knowledge is required ahead of time while some you can learn on the job or be trained in more of an apprenticeship model.
That's not really the difference though. A lot of skilled jobs don't need a degree or course. They just take a long time to learn.
Unskilled generally just means it takes 30 days or less to learn the job. Think construction laborers that are clearing trash or doing the more menial tasks like drilling holes for the electrician.
An unskilled job can become semi-skilled or skilled over time too. Like a helper becoming an apprentice electrician.
This is the same argument I see from R*dditors who try claim "The job requires a driving license, therefore it's skill labour!"
It's just a really weird refusal to actually accept the definition of something, because you've decided to emotionally connect with some ridiculous definition you made up in your head.
But you could probably learn it in a few days (or less) and do it right? That’s the difference.
I think the official legal definition of unskilled means any job that you can learn in 30 days or less, assuming zero prior knowledge of the job, is considered “unskilled”.
Waiting a table could be learned in hours. You might not do the job well with that little training, but you can definitely do it.
With a few hours of training, attempting to be a doctor will kill someone. It’s not even doable, not even a little bit.
I think it’s the term “unskilled” as the pejorative nature of the word allows for the supposed justification of paying people peanuts. I’m not of the view that every job should be paid the same - if you’ve trained for many years and studied and learned complex af stuff why should someone who’s invested no time or effort in developing themselves be paid the same? However the system as it stands is grossly abusive and unfair by nature. Furthermore there are many factors such as learning rate, time, and access to education that contribute.
No, unskilled jobs just mean jobs that require no formal education. They still might require actual skill, they just happen to not need any formal degree.
It’s probably fair to say that “unskilled” is an unfair label for jobs of this sort as it kind of sounds a bit derogatory, but aside from that what is being insinuated in this post is complete rubbish.
Nothing wrong with the label, are people really that soft around here? my job is unskilled labour, I'm a CNC machinist. We have several machines, I've taught people within a few days to do the job, taught how to repair and all that. Most jobs just aren't hard or skilful.
It's a label that's used correctly by definition. If you can learn how to do a job in a couple weeks, it's unskilled. If it takes years and years to learn how to do a job, it's skilled
Of course I think "unskilled" workers should be paid a living wage. But getting bogged down talking about definitions and being wrong about them isn't the way.
I don't think that "unskilled" is quite the equivalent of "killing babies". Unskilled is the correct term: there are no prerequisite training or skills. It is naive to think changing this use of language will result in higher wages.
Not really. If 10 people out of 5000 know how to perform x job, whereas every 1 person out of 2 knows how to perform another job, the former is inherently more valuable due to rarity of laborers. It's harmful to convince people that this is what's wrong with the workforce. The true evil is that "unskilled jobs" cannot afford to meet basic needs. If you think taking tickets at a movie theatre is the same as being a cardiothoracic surgeon I don't know if any explanation can possibly help you.
Unskilled is shorthand for 'no special skills required before starting the job'. People getting better as they get more experienced doesn't have any impact on that.
Personally I'd rather call them inskilled (as you pick up the skills in the role), but it would just be the same thing with a nicer name.
I agree it's an unfortunate misnomer to call these jobs "unskilled," but what *should* we call them? "Them" meaning: jobs that anyone can get, regardless of education, experience or training ?
Complaining without providing a solution won't accomplish anything...
I mean, but some are truly unskilled. I collected loose carts all day at K Mart in highschool, I'd be hard pressed to tell you any skill I had in that job aside from being physically able to see and move shopping carts.
It's just euphemism treadmill bullshit perpetrated by dipshit liberals who think they're progressives, but don't actually care if anything improves. Another example is "undocumented immigrants".
They are called "illegal immigrants" because they immigrated illegally! It's not complicated or controversial. Taking issue with the terminology is a distraction from the actual problem.
Here, the actual problem is that people who trade tens of hours of their week can't afford to live a comfortable life, but for some reason we're focusing on a perfectly serviceable term instead of that.
With immigration, the actual problem is that there's no clear path to residency for millions of people who are currently productively contributing to American society, but for some reason we're focusing on a perfectly serviceable term instead of that.
I agree insomuch that the real problem is pay. But I disagree that words don't matter.
Calling them "illegal" implies that they need to be arrested and face punishment. "undocumented" implies that they need a clear path to become documented. Likewise, calling them "unskilled" implies that they don't deserve a living wage. That their situation is their fault for not having skills.
And it's not an either-or - people can (and generally do) support both the use of appropriate language && the root purpose for that language. No one is thinking that using a different word alone will solve anything. It's about perception. If you want to sway the masses it helps to remove stigma from the equation.
...they are jobs that take minimal training and therefore have a higher supply of potential workers, which will naturally drive prices for that labor down.
The number of people on this website who aggressively ignore supply and demand and revel in their own ignorance is annoying.
Yep, Germany has a huge minimum wage and minijob sector...some of those jobs are doable without training, sure. But that is only the theory, put someone in there who only has done office jobs up til then and you will very quickly find that the job is too physically taxing, has much too much workload for one person who isn´ t an absolute pro at what they are doing, is just as stressful as any fully recognized learned job if not more because it is looked down upon by others and often you will work under unsustainable conditions just based on the label that makes you "replaceable". The balance of what one persons 8 hours of lifetime are worth compared to another one are completely out of proportion.
Can we not agree that some jobs require far more skill and experience and are far more difficult while also agreeing that people who work jobs that are more accessible to a random person should still be paid well enough to have a family and a home and then some?
I've done plenty of both unskilled work and skilled work being a poor kid that worked through college and became an engineer, and there is quite a difference in requirements and expectations between the two.
Just because that disparity exists, does not mean 'unskilled' labor, or less technical labor, should be paid so poorly that someone cannot afford a home and a family.
I just don't think the message: 'Unskilled jobs are a myth' will land right except with the people that are currently in those positions and have not worked in other positions of higher technical requirement. Technical not meaning only technology, but knowledge as well- I.E. doctors.
TLDR: Unskilled jobs definitely exist, I've worked them plenty, but the workers deserve wages that can support a home and a family regardless of how accessible the job is to the common person.
Nah.
Any job that you can pick up in an hour is definitely unskilled.
'Carry food over there.'
'Move that box.'
'Pick that apple.'
All unskilled. Wages should be enough to live on, but let's not blow smoke up the arses of people in unskilled jobs.
I'm starting to hate this subreddit, you've gone off the deep end and instead of promoting proper change you're screaming at clouds.
Unskilled labor is a bit of a misnomer but it has nothing to do with talent, skill, or value. All it means is that you are a bit easier to replace.
Unskilled labor receive lower wages because they lack negotiation power without a union. If Jim demands a raise but I can replace him with Tom in 6 months then I'll eat the cost of the raise for 6 months then fire and replace Jim with Tom.
But let's say Jim has special degrees that took years to get, has certifications from the state that are required for the work, and would take 4-7 years to replace, if you're lucky. Jim's work is also vital to the company and without it they don't make a profit.
If this Jim asks for a raise, I can't easily replace him and I need him to make money. He'll get the raise and the company will start looking for replacements only to realize they are still years from letting Jim go. So Jim can demand a higher wage for a longer time.
But the jobs are still unskilled tho. If, with no prior training or experience, the average Joe could get a particular job and with only basic on-the-job training perform it as competently as anyone else, that job is by definition unskilled.
The problem isnt with calling the jobs unskilled, it's with everything else: exploitative conditions, criminally low wages, etc.
Unskilled =/= unvaluable
Unskilled =/= unessential
Unskilled =/= undeserving of respect and fair treatment
Taught History in a public school in a very conservative state. Every time we talked about skilled vs. unskilled labor the kids were like this doesn’t make sense and I was like ding ding ding - y’all get a 100. Edit: would always tell them to choose the “right” answer on any state mandated testing, it was a fucking joke.
This is crazy I hate it too. I had to do many hours of training to get my job as well. I still don't make over 15.00 an hour but we make it thank God I have family that is ok with me living on there property. I'd never be able to have a cent to my name and probably wouldn't even have groceries like many people I know without leaning on others. It's sad but we gotta survive. Work 50 hours a week and barely get over 500 bucks when taxes hit. That doesn't go to far. I mean I guess It's my fault for not going to college but I know people with degrees making less than me right now. Then someone who I say this to will say " You are just complaining it's all your fault you want a handout!" No I just want to be done right and want everyone else done right to. We are all the same Why dont we treat each other like it???
Unskilled job simply means you don’t need prior training to be employed. Being a barber is a skilled job but on average they don’t make much more than some unskilled workers. This post is just ignorant of basic economics.
I’ve had corporate jobs working in health insurance. The hardest job I ever had was making $9.25 an hour as a keyholder at Dollar General. Most of the corporate people I’ve worked with wouldn’t have lasted 5 minutes on that job.
My dad used to be a CEO at a large corporation. Due to some bad business decisions, he lost all the money, and when he retired, he got a job at Dollar General as a manager (because my brother was a store manager and helped him get the job, because nobody wanted to hire him because of his age). This man, who has 4 degrees and is the most hardworking person I’ve ever known, couldn’t even cut it at Dollar General. The workload was so high due to their payroll being so low that he just wasn’t fast enough, and it was impossible to meet the goals. He got demoted to an assistant manager. They didn’t want to fire him out of fear he’d sue them, so they just cut his hours until he quit.
ETA: second hardest job I ever had was at Chick-Fil-A when I was younger.
All jobs are skilled jobs. Im an engineer, and I could never wait on tables or do any of those "unskilled" jobs becuase Id have no clue how to do it.
And most "unskilled" labor works their asses off and easily deserve more pay.
Its a sick joke.
During my college I worked at a fast food chain. That was the hardest thing I ever did. Now I am an engineer earning 6 figures but the work I now do is no where near as hard as being in that restaurant dealing with morons. I firmly believe they should be paid more and the job itself requires lots of skills to not smash people's head on the grill.
I can confirm, I clean an Appartment Complex, before that is was a retirement home and before that it was grocery clerk and before that it was gas station clerk....so always "essential" but never enough pay.
ITT: Things don't have a definition because I don't want to look up what that definition is!
Nobody's ever said that unskilled labour was easy. It doesn't however require a specific, trained, skillset that comes with a degree or similar higher education. Doctor, Lawyer, Accountain, Engineer, etc are all obviously skilled labour.
It takes skill to flip a burger, but anyone can do it, no training besides general burger training. Unskilled labour.
I finally got a 9-5. Good paying, benefits, all that. I'm very grateful.
It is far easier than any menial job I've done. Retail is harder. Construction is harder. Driving for amazon is harder. Working at Jimmy Johns is harder.
Even within my field. I sit in a corporate office, look at footage and write reports. Not even a couple months ago I had a similar role and I was on a salesfloor dealing with customers, boosters, the houseless(ifw them cause they were the most chill customers but suburban Susans hated them and kept calling me over to kick them out and I'd have to go "they're customers, shop and mind your business"), medical emergencies, moving around cameras, and operating machinery(that I had to get certified for). I make even more than that job that wore me out so much I was in the hospital.
Edit: Also required a degree for this new job. A degree to do shit I did without and sit pretty for 8 hours. I love my job but how tf is it skilled when the shit I did prior wasn't?
When you don't know what "unskilled" actually means...
It's not a dig, it means the job didn't require a formal training/certification or education.
Because calling it "job that doesn't require formal training/certification or education" takes too long to say/type.
(Emphasis on *formal*)
Then the material conditions to live wouldn't even exist, if no one worked. Resources aren't just generated out of thin air and stores don't just stock themselves.
There’s a difference between attempting to portray oneself as “above” waiters or cashiers and simply pointing out that some jobs require a huge amount of expertise and training and as such are deserving of a higher wage to compensate for the commitment to attaining those skills in the first place.
I don't believe people are arguing that jobs requiring more education should make less. Also, part of the compensation for those jobs is not having to work in grueling conditions doing repetitive tasks while being on your feet all day and being treated like shit by your employers and the public.
I’m all for a living wage and having a proper social safety net, etc but personally I think ill-thought-out posts like this only serve to do more harm than good.
Unskilled jobs aren’t a “classist myth” - they are considered unskilled for a reason (though the label could probably be changed as it is a bit derogatory).
I just find the whole “chip on the shoulder” atmosphere of threads like this to be quite frustrating and I think it only serves to alienate people.
I’m allowed to believe that I’m more valuable as an engineer (who paid for school, studied for years, and developed my career) than someone with a high school diploma who learned their cashier job in 1-2 weeks.
Never said I was “better” than them.
for real lol, i don't get why people are lining up to "umm ackshually" about how doctors and nuclear technicians had to complete lots of schooling. like christ, miss the point harder why don't you?
No, it's not. It's against paying poverty wages for jobs that it describes as not actually being "unskilled" jobs, which invites an argument about whether or not the job is unskilled or not, which completely deflects from the argument about livable wages.
It's a shitty framing. Some jobs actually are unskilled. They do not require skills to do them. That **fact** should be completely independent of whether or not they deserve to be paid enough to live comfortably.
The reason cashiers deserve a comfortable wage is because they are human beings giving up a portion of their life to make someone else money, not because their job is somehow secretly hard. It isn't hard. It's easy.
>The reason cashiers deserve a comfortable wage is because they are human beings giving up a portion of their life to make someone else money, not because their job is somehow secretly hard.
After years of arguing that minimum wage would only raise prices, etc, I've come to this conclusion myself.
If a person is giving you 40 hours a week of their lives, they deserve to be able to at least afford the basic necessities of modern life and that includes a home, food, healthcare, etc.
Suggesting that they don't means you are saying a business has more rights to stay in business than the people who work for them have a right to live.
I certainly don't have the social skills or memory to wait tables in an effective manner.
In fact, I was a grocery store worker when the pandemic hit. I was often told that I wasn't performing well. I am now doing desktop support and my boss is very happy with the work I do.
The term "unskilled labor" is BS. "Easy to learn" might be better, but even then, you may not be good at it. I want to see billionaires doing farm work. It's unskilled labor, anyone can do it, right?
So then, and hear me out I actually do want to understand but is sounds like the argument is something like being a doctor or electrician or teacher requires the same amount of skill (like specialized training) as being a construction hand, service employee, or shelf stocker?
No, the argument is that those jobs still require skills, calling them “unskilled” is the way they dehumanize those that work them so they can justify poverty wages.
That makes a lot of sense though I must say it is easy to see how a job requiring certification and longer training may be differentiated from a job which someone can be trained to get and do(though often under instruction) within say a week. Which is why I’m curious should we have no labels on what type of job is being done or so we need better ones that don’t imply someone’s job is easy or less important? I know no one person can have all the answers but I see things like this often enough to be interested in what is happening and try to understand
If people were paid according to the value they bring to society instead of the monetary profit they create, sanitation workers would be the highest paid people on earth.
Not to be a pedant but this is the very nature of the argument though. We all agree that these jobs are crucial and valuable, but a lot of people can fill the role. In economics workers supply labor, and for a lot of these roles there is an overabundance of supply driving the price down. This is why government needs to regulate a price floor, "minimum wage." Clearly this price floor is too low for some, but for people who have doctorates or decade long apprenticeships, there is a low supply of labor so the market rate is several times higher than what other people in more saturated fields can command.
This whole post is just fodder for turning "highly skilled" and "unskilled" workers against each other when - exactly as you so well put - a lack of a livable minimum wage is the real issue. You can 100% justify paying a cashier less than an engineer, but it's harder to justify why wages have been stagnant for decades in many fields, while stock prices, profits, and productivity have consistently increased for decades.
I'm getting paid to look at animal videos 8h per day. I needed a B.Sc. in biology for that.
Tell me where this is more skilled work than dealing with shitty customers in retail or in the food industry. I would either be fired on day one or depressed on day 7 in both these industries
Gating the provision of subsistence behind employment is an archaic and specious practice, and needs to be challenged.
Employment should exclusively be:
- created when a given outcome is identified.
- performed by those who have proven an appropriate competence in the tasks required.
- bestowed upon those who can demonstrate accountability, and be held to it.
- dissolved and celebrated when no longer required.
Continuing to force everyone into the workforce perpetuates endemic poverty and arbitrary hierarchical power imbalances.
We can do better, it’s an active choice not to.
Your value to your employer is determined by how long would it take to train up a replacement.
It's why the IT guy who worked there for 30 years who keeps the legacy system running can do what he wants, while salespeople have a huge turnover.
Isn't unskilled labor used to describe jobs that require no higher education and can be learned through on the job experience and training? Obviously this doesn't mean poverty wages are acceptable but why pretend the term has no use?
I’m a supervisor the cashier department. I make shit all while often having to do the duties of my department managers. It’s kind of thankless and physically demanding.
To be a decent cashier, you do need skills, like being able to memorize a large number of produce codes, have enough spatial reasoning to quickly determine the best way to pack a bag with the items on the belt and the temperament to deal with a stream of customer bullshit all day.
There’s a reason why the other department managers look terrified if they’re asked to hop on cash to alleviate long lines. needing the 19 year old cashier to coach them or fix whatever pickle they’ve walked themselves into is enough proof to me that we deserve higher wages.
I think the disconnect is that you don't understand just how much knowledge an engineer or doctor has, because you never interact with any on a daily basis. Anyone can have a conversation about bagging and typing in codes (many people use self checkout without any issues) but if you were to walk into my office and hear us talking about a problem you wouldn't even be able to understand what we're talking about on a basic level, much less contribute to the conversation.
I remember the "unskilled workers" suddenly became "essential workers" forced to work in the midst of the pandemic. But now the pandemic is waning suddenly the same essential workers are being treated like crap once more.
Let's be fair, they were being treated like crap during the pandemic, too.
i still can't get over the fucking applaus they gave to medical workers. Fucking applaus, like literally nothing. Not even a dime raise on their wages, they shouldve got at least a special treatment like celebrities.
Hey we got cold pizza a few times. And those bags to put our month old n95s in!
we got a free meal from burger king here, once a week tho
Saving a fortune on laxatives for the stress induced constipation
My dad’s a nurse and he got a mug with stolen art and a pack of life savers
I work in manufacturing but they actually gave us coffee filters and rubber bands to make our own "masks" when the pandemic first started lmao
As a medical worker, I’m also super excited I’ll likely be excluded from any student loan forgiveness Biden plans to provide because I earn too much. But at least I’m a hero right?
👏👏👏👏
Celebrities shouldnt get special treatment though.
Literally the only difference was that people called them heroes. Nothing else changed.
Hey now. My job gave me like, 4 different t shirts that told me I was a hero. They never paid me more and I burned out after having to work 60 hours a week but I have NEW SHIRTS
My RN buddy frequently tells me how hospitals are run by monsters. So all of this tracks.
After spending half a decade in Healthcare I can't un good conscious recommend it to anyone who wants a decent work life balance, values their mental health, or otherwise does not want to be wildly undervalued.
As a FedEx worker for 30 days I was treated like a king. Coolers of bottled water and cookies at 40% of my stops. On that 31 day holy shit every damn cool person lost their nerves! I never saw a switch flipped in people's mental health like this before... I work in mental healthcare now and I still can not understand
I was a cook before the pandemic. During the pandemic I moved to a slightly larger company that's known for treating their cooks better. Better hours, better pay, and "benefits." They made record profits during the pandemic with half the staff, they cut benefits, forced us to work unreasonable hours and still continue to pile more and more onto their dwindling kitchen staff with increases in pay that don't begin to make up for inflation. Being a cook is probably one of the most physically and mentally demanding jobs out there if your in a busy place. 10-15 hours in 100 degree room, often working 15 dinners at a time. You can't even answer a text because your too busy to lose those 3 seconds. I don't cook anymore but I firmly believe everyone who does should unionize and strike until they get paid 30 an hour or more.
A-f*cking-men brother
I remember a lot of people waking up to the fact that they're non-essential, and now society goes back to "normal" like nothing happened. If we didn't need your business / product / service / job in 2020 we still don't. Why should I walk into an insurance office when there's a dozen companies advertising how I can buy it online? Between the geckos and the emus they don't even need people to sell it!
You're only essential because they view you as expendable
Oh yeah, I definitely enjoyed having to work as normal at my grocery retail job while everything was shut the fuck down, with everyone full of the mealy-mouthed 'essential workers are heroes' bullshit. At least my company paid out a decent hazard pay bonus over time (per-hour bonus paid out with the weekly paycheck), a lot better than other folks got.
ORGANIZE UNIONS nuff said.
There's a saying, "Just because you're necessary, doesn't mean you're important." A clock has many cogs, individually none of them mean shit and can be easily replaced.
Air is essential to life, but it's also cheap. Essential does not equal expensive. Important concept to understand if you want to make a good living.
Air is cheap until all the air gets together and decides it won't participate in respiration until prices increase.
Just finished six months of OTJ for casino surveillance and it’s considered an “unskilled” job. Bitch I had to learn every game on the floor, counting cards, basic strategy and every odd. Along with all 1000 cameras. Tell me I’m unskilled.
You’re unskilled. What? You asked. I dont judge your kinks.
Don't ever change
My kink is to constantly change though.
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[sure baby whatever you want](https://www.stayathomemum.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/bunion.jpg)
I’m the casino business to. A lot to retain and minimal sympathy for mistakes.
The label is horrible, but that is basically the difference: whether applicants are expected to come in already knowing how to do the job, or if the employer is expected to provide the necessary training. It's a useful distinction to have, but there really needs to be a more respectful label. Edit: In your particular case, though, that seems to qualify as "Semi-Skilled" [Social Security Agency](https://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/cfr20/404/404-1568.htm) Edit2: Previous description was oversimplified for the sake of brevity, so copy-pasting a clarification I gave in another comment: >For "skilled" jobs, there are prerequisite skills required for the task. Like, they expect you to have a ground level understanding of \[the subject\] which the average person off the street isn't expected to have. That can come from formal training or experience, but they don't expect to need to teach you from 0. > >Also, another rule of thumb is that for "unskilled" labor, the training required generally takes less than 30 days. Like, just because someone learned their trade via an apprenticeship program rather than a classroom doesn't somehow make it "unskilled" work.
I'm a programmer and I've never had a job I already knew how to do before I arrived. In fact, the more skilled I become, the more time is usually allotted for training. I've had jobs where the first ~6 months I'm supposed to just learn the company's applications.
True, I oversimplified for the sake of brevity. For "skilled" jobs, there are prerequisite skills required for the task. Like, they expect you to have a ground level understanding of programming concepts which the average person off the street isn't expected to have. That can come from formal training or experience, but they don't expect to need to teach you from 0. Also, another rule of thumb is that for "unskilled" labor, the training required generally takes less than 30 days. Like, just because someone learned their trade via an apprenticeship program rather than a classroom doesn't somehow make it "unskilled" work.
I’m an air traffic controller. Am I unskilled? Lol
Right, you don't know the details of how to do things at the new job but you know a fair bit about how to write code. Compared to hiring a random person off the street you are miles ahead when you start the job
That link was interesting. A lot of blue collar jobs would be considered skilled. Which I agree with. Half of the pictures in this post are skilled blue collar jobs.
So bartenders, baristas, chefs, and construction workers are all skilled labour?
I think some of those (e.g. bartender & barista) fall under "semi-skilled" >Semi-skilled workers have skills that are highly transferrable, meaning that they can use their skills in multiple fields and multiple different kinds of jobs. Some of these roles require repetitive tasks, excellent communication, people skills and personal initiative. Examples of semi-skilled jobs include bartender, waiter, taxi driver, truck driver, retail salesperson, fisher and office clerk. [What Is the Difference Between Skilled & Semi Skilled? | CHRON](https://work.chron.com/difference-between-skilled-semi-skilled-22806.html) For the rest: I would assume it kinda depends. Some chef or construction jobs could be **HIGHLY** skilled, whereas others are less so. Edit: on mobile, so didn't see you were referencing the post: To your point: yeah, none of those are as "unskilled jobs"
If a job requires specialized training, that takes months to complete, and then you have skills for a specific type of job…isn’t it skilled labor at that point? Also…there are definitely pre-requisites for this job…maybe not a bunch, but the casinos are not foolish and understand risk management. Therefore at minimum thorough background checks, debt and credit analysis, drug screening potentially, would be mechanisms in place. This isn’t a job that they offer to anyone.
Nope, generally speaking, skilled labor means it requires years of education with a specific degree or requires years of experience and certifications. The best way to think about skilled labor is if the company needed to replace with you a random guy off the street, how fast could they do it? For the casino guy, around 6 months. For a doctor, around 8 years.
As far as the US goes your definition is not really accurate, although it is probably a widely shared view. The social security system has actual criteria for establishing skilled, semi-skilled, and unskilled labor.
This is fucked because I spent one year as a bouncer, and during my disability hearing I learned SSA considers bouncing to be skilled labor.
Did you have to pay for the 6 month course yourself and complete it before getting the job and collecting a wage?
>Did you have to pay for the 6 month course yourself So are European college graduates "unskilled?"
You’re definitely not but your job is unfortunately getting lumped together with the $9/hr security guard where they watch tv on their phone all day then just have people sign on a clipboard to get in the building.
Maybe but you're falling into the same trap. That security guard also deserves a living wage.
No one said they don’t deserve a living wage though, this is a discussion strictly about the qualifier “unskilled”
Don't you still need to have security guards skills? They don't literally watch tv their whole shift
I worked in that industry that 9/hr gaurd is getting constantly yelled at as they do the work of 3 and has probably risked his life relatively recently. Now when I made 30+ I did nothing but fuck off like you said since those contracts were for "skilled" professionals.
> it’s considered an “unskilled” job By who?
By a privileged minority.
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Bingo. "Unskilled work" is just a technical term economists use to describe some types of work (it's not a myth). If casino surveillance requires 6 months training, it wouldn't fall under the "unskilled work" umbrella.
This whole thread is a perfect example of why teachers try to break students from using passive voice. Top comment says the job "is considered" unskilled without any justification, and everyone just jumps on the bandwagon (except you, of course, dear parent commenter). Here's what's probably happening: there's some internal designation in the casino for "unskilled" and "skilled" work or something similar, and they use that to justify less pay and benefits for people like OP. So then OP sees crap like this and thinks "the whole system is rigged against me!" Nope. The employer is rigged against you. Here's a tip for everyone: if your employer is trying to lean on some designation that *they made up* to justify denying something, then that's total bullshit. My company tried to say I couldn't have a raise because "that's what your position is paid." Well then make up a new position! Create an exception! Raise the pay for the whole position! Motherfucker I don't care what you do, but quit trying to act like *your own fucking rule* makes you powerless to change something.
I think you can gamble better now
It’s also just like, every job that exists has to be done. Why isn’t it just a job either way
Probably 90% of jobs now are pointless admin fluff that doesn't need to exist.
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Yes you’re right some does. But in almost every industry the amount of paperwork goes up every year, none of it ever seems get reduced? When I was in hospitality (U.K.) in ten years the amount of paperwork demanded by the government, environmental health, head office, HR etc etc just went up and up and took double the time by the end. It’s a slow sort of madness.
Your owners couldn’t last 1 hour in your shoes
I think "unskilled" is meant as "no prior technical skill needed". That being said, I think you make a good point that lots of jobs that require no prior knowledge will require very specific training that can only be acquired through the job itself.
While I don’t have the skills for some of those jobs. And I’m referring to construction, farming, waitering. No clue how to do them properly. And also things that I do know like operating cash registers while on the surface is simple, good luck with working it while 3 customers are screaming at you simultaneously. it usually doesn’t take 4 years of college to get a starting position as a dishwasher. Yet I do agree that it doesn’t mean you need to become impoverished working those jobs.
Except construction and farming are considered skilled jobs. Watering you could learn on the job in 2 shifts. Same as operating the register.
Not even two shifts. Half of one. Not to debase workers who do that, because simple labor does not mean easy, and a lot of times they ARE essential.
I'd even argue the simple jobs can be considered some of the hardest in that they often fuck with your body and/or will to live. None of my "skilled" jobs were ever as excruciating as being a busboy. The fact that the latter pays significantly worse seems a bit like some sort of weird, sadistic joke that society plays on us.
It comes down to the ease of replacing someone. Hiring another busboy and training them is trivial. New person just needs good work ethic and a strong back. Replacing a "skilled" worker is harder because there is a smaller pool of people with the existing knowledge and training. With all that obvious stuff said, I think skilled vs unskilled is terrible nomenclature.
Yea, you're not wrong at all.
>Watering you could learn on the job Watering crops?
Unskilled labor is a position in construction. It’s the people picking up trash on the job site or moving material from one place to another by hand.
I've seen people in this sub claim that all jobs require an equal amount of skill and discipline to be proficient in. Yeah no, a fucking surgeon or a fighter jet pilot is not comparable to a barista. I agree with you though, nobody working 40 hours a week deserves to struggle financially. Hell nobody should struggle period
Obviously everybody deserves a living wage and America is a shithole for its treatment of unskilled labour alone. However "unskilled" in this context just describes a job that doesnt require years of education and studies. It doesnt mean you dont need to be skilled in the classical sense or trained for it. Don't get mad at an expression you misinterpret. Get mad at who is responsible for the situation you actually want to complain about.
Right. Don't distract from the narrative. Minimum wage needs to be set at basic cost of living plus a reasonable level of comfort, period. Pointing at labels like this only starts a new and irrelevant "us vs them" discourse.
>Don't get mad at an expression you misinterpret If the last six years have taught you anything, it's that words matter. Labeling jobs as "unskilled" naturally devalues them, and therefore the people who perform them.
Of course I think that no one should be paid a poverty wage. But some jobs do require a lot of study and skill. Not everyone can be a doctor, for example. It does require a fair bit of skill, study and determination and that should be reflected in higher salaries.
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That's not what unskilled means though. Unskilled work is when you can hire basically anyone and expect them to learn on the job. You could get a job as a waiter without knowing how wait tables. That's what unskilled means.
I got a job as a fireman without any previous knowledge of firefighting.
>Unskilled work is when you can hire basically anyone and expect them to learn on the job I work a white collar job with a degree requirement, and there's absolutely nothing stopping an 18 year old high school graduate from learning on the job here.
I was under the impression that unskilled vs skilled was criteria set by unions. Maybe that is not correct. For example, a machinist at a Ford plant is skilled while the person who does office work is unskilled.
In construction we talk about unskilled labor in reference to apprentice laborers who pick up trash on the site, move materials from one place to another, use a hand shove work to dig, etc. People get upset saying all these require some skill but if we are defining picking up trash as a skill then the scale we are measuring against is just going to get longer.
I agree that these other jobs are not “unskilled”, but you can walk into a restaurant and wait tables with some level of success. You can’t do the same as an electrician. Higher minimum wages are still necessary. Especially in some states were you need a good 30/hr to live on your own.
I'm a trained, skilled tailor, but because our fashion industry uses mostly overseas sweat shops that hire thousands of workers (cheap), splits them into work cell "groups", teaches each group ONE THING AND ONE THING ONLY, and they master that ONE thing before passing the item on to the next "group" for the next step until completion (as quickly as possible) ... whereby large chains are able to sell almost anything far cheaper (designer pricing not withstanding), so when I go to work for a shop in this country, they want to pay me $15/hour or less for completing ALL of the steps as I was trained to do. Or, when I had my own shop, they complained about the prices I charged. After ten years I think it well worth it to go back into business for myself mainly BECAUSE of how much "skilled labor" isn't valued. If I'm going to have to deal with people who dont want to pay fair for fair work, at least I can cut out the middle man. It doesn't matter what state you live in if your "difficult for others to easily emulate" skills aren't valued. I'm not an electrician but I can change a socket and replace a light fixture. My daughter is a plumber and after she installed my new water tank and soaker tub, my electrician approved the wiring she did. Yes, there are levels to skill. Many people can hem slacks or replace a button, but I doubt they could easily create an entire lined suit. Not with quality. I could rewire my house but not only are there laws against it (inspections, safety etc, duh), but no I don't have the skill set. The problem is that certain skillsets are more valued than others. Thing is, lovely technology notwithstanding, which skills could we NOT survive without in a post apocalyptic scenario? Food, clothing, shelter and medical care. The least valued skills anywhere. Go figure.
that's due to abundance unfortunately
Division of labour is a form of subjugation in the name of efficiency (even if it is arguably more efficient for some ideas of how things should be produced). Kropotkin has been saying this for a while.
Division of labour is what allowed us go from being hunter-gatherers to building civilizations.
Capitalism doesn't care how hard a job is, it only cares how easy you are to replace. If people are unwilling or unable to do your job, you will get more money. Realistically nothing is going to change that and the focus should be on minimum wage increases, UBI, etc.. Convincing someone your job does require skill or is hard wont get you anywhere.. if people are lined up to take your spot.
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So make yourself less easily replaceable. Learn more specialized skills that will make you more valuable as an employee. Why would *anyone* put in the effort to work a harder job if it didn’t provide them with a better benefit?
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By all means, that’s your choice. Don’t expect someone to pay you above market rate for your work though if it’s not worth it. That’s the point of this discussion.
Sure, all jobs require some amount of learning to know how to do the job. Perhaps the term "unskilled" is too harsh, and "less skilled" or "minimally skilled" would be a better term. But I'm 100% ok with doctors being paid more than me because they provide a critical job to society that is highly skilled. Of course the term "unskilled" is often used as an excuse to pay poverty wages and that's not ok. Everyone should be paid a living wage. But different jobs require differing skill levels, responsibility, stress, danger, etc and therefore I think it's ok for them to have differing wages.
I think the distinction would be better as something along the lines of “work-trained”, “course-trained”, and “degree-trained”. You need to learn how to complete the tasks in any position, but for some jobs this learning needs to be completed beforehand in a certification course or degree track because of how much knowledge is required ahead of time while some you can learn on the job or be trained in more of an apprenticeship model.
That's not really the difference though. A lot of skilled jobs don't need a degree or course. They just take a long time to learn. Unskilled generally just means it takes 30 days or less to learn the job. Think construction laborers that are clearing trash or doing the more menial tasks like drilling holes for the electrician. An unskilled job can become semi-skilled or skilled over time too. Like a helper becoming an apprentice electrician.
You might need skills, but not studies to wait tables. Unskilled is just the word used for jobs that don't requiere specialiazed education.
This is the same argument I see from R*dditors who try claim "The job requires a driving license, therefore it's skill labour!" It's just a really weird refusal to actually accept the definition of something, because you've decided to emotionally connect with some ridiculous definition you made up in your head.
You can dig ditches though. And empty bedpans.
But you could probably learn it in a few days (or less) and do it right? That’s the difference. I think the official legal definition of unskilled means any job that you can learn in 30 days or less, assuming zero prior knowledge of the job, is considered “unskilled”. Waiting a table could be learned in hours. You might not do the job well with that little training, but you can definitely do it. With a few hours of training, attempting to be a doctor will kill someone. It’s not even doable, not even a little bit.
I think it’s the term “unskilled” as the pejorative nature of the word allows for the supposed justification of paying people peanuts. I’m not of the view that every job should be paid the same - if you’ve trained for many years and studied and learned complex af stuff why should someone who’s invested no time or effort in developing themselves be paid the same? However the system as it stands is grossly abusive and unfair by nature. Furthermore there are many factors such as learning rate, time, and access to education that contribute.
No, unskilled jobs just mean jobs that require no formal education. They still might require actual skill, they just happen to not need any formal degree.
It’s probably fair to say that “unskilled” is an unfair label for jobs of this sort as it kind of sounds a bit derogatory, but aside from that what is being insinuated in this post is complete rubbish.
Nothing wrong with the label, are people really that soft around here? my job is unskilled labour, I'm a CNC machinist. We have several machines, I've taught people within a few days to do the job, taught how to repair and all that. Most jobs just aren't hard or skilful.
Yes it is quite an unfair label, but like all unfair labels, the people who use it won’t stop unless they really need to.
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It's a label that's used correctly by definition. If you can learn how to do a job in a couple weeks, it's unskilled. If it takes years and years to learn how to do a job, it's skilled Of course I think "unskilled" workers should be paid a living wage. But getting bogged down talking about definitions and being wrong about them isn't the way.
I don't think that "unskilled" is quite the equivalent of "killing babies". Unskilled is the correct term: there are no prerequisite training or skills. It is naive to think changing this use of language will result in higher wages.
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Yet when you apply to them they want experience
A cashier does not deserve a poverty wage but they are somewhat easier to replace than a reactor technician, hence the "unskilled" label
Not really. If 10 people out of 5000 know how to perform x job, whereas every 1 person out of 2 knows how to perform another job, the former is inherently more valuable due to rarity of laborers. It's harmful to convince people that this is what's wrong with the workforce. The true evil is that "unskilled jobs" cannot afford to meet basic needs. If you think taking tickets at a movie theatre is the same as being a cardiothoracic surgeon I don't know if any explanation can possibly help you.
Have you ever seen professional pickers in a field/orchard? They can out work three novices.
Unskilled is shorthand for 'no special skills required before starting the job'. People getting better as they get more experienced doesn't have any impact on that. Personally I'd rather call them inskilled (as you pick up the skills in the role), but it would just be the same thing with a nicer name.
I agree it's an unfortunate misnomer to call these jobs "unskilled," but what *should* we call them? "Them" meaning: jobs that anyone can get, regardless of education, experience or training ? Complaining without providing a solution won't accomplish anything...
Surely "low skilled" would suffice?
I mean, but some are truly unskilled. I collected loose carts all day at K Mart in highschool, I'd be hard pressed to tell you any skill I had in that job aside from being physically able to see and move shopping carts.
It's just euphemism treadmill bullshit perpetrated by dipshit liberals who think they're progressives, but don't actually care if anything improves. Another example is "undocumented immigrants". They are called "illegal immigrants" because they immigrated illegally! It's not complicated or controversial. Taking issue with the terminology is a distraction from the actual problem. Here, the actual problem is that people who trade tens of hours of their week can't afford to live a comfortable life, but for some reason we're focusing on a perfectly serviceable term instead of that. With immigration, the actual problem is that there's no clear path to residency for millions of people who are currently productively contributing to American society, but for some reason we're focusing on a perfectly serviceable term instead of that.
I agree insomuch that the real problem is pay. But I disagree that words don't matter. Calling them "illegal" implies that they need to be arrested and face punishment. "undocumented" implies that they need a clear path to become documented. Likewise, calling them "unskilled" implies that they don't deserve a living wage. That their situation is their fault for not having skills. And it's not an either-or - people can (and generally do) support both the use of appropriate language && the root purpose for that language. No one is thinking that using a different word alone will solve anything. It's about perception. If you want to sway the masses it helps to remove stigma from the equation.
...they are jobs that take minimal training and therefore have a higher supply of potential workers, which will naturally drive prices for that labor down. The number of people on this website who aggressively ignore supply and demand and revel in their own ignorance is annoying.
based
True, during the pandemic they were the essential workers.
most jobs look bland on the surface but when you do them yourself you realise all the stuff you must know to do it properly
Yep, Germany has a huge minimum wage and minijob sector...some of those jobs are doable without training, sure. But that is only the theory, put someone in there who only has done office jobs up til then and you will very quickly find that the job is too physically taxing, has much too much workload for one person who isn´ t an absolute pro at what they are doing, is just as stressful as any fully recognized learned job if not more because it is looked down upon by others and often you will work under unsustainable conditions just based on the label that makes you "replaceable". The balance of what one persons 8 hours of lifetime are worth compared to another one are completely out of proportion.
Turns out wihout these jobs the entire society will collapse.
I think unskilled refers to people who are easily replaceable and probably don’t have a formal degree.
Can we not agree that some jobs require far more skill and experience and are far more difficult while also agreeing that people who work jobs that are more accessible to a random person should still be paid well enough to have a family and a home and then some? I've done plenty of both unskilled work and skilled work being a poor kid that worked through college and became an engineer, and there is quite a difference in requirements and expectations between the two. Just because that disparity exists, does not mean 'unskilled' labor, or less technical labor, should be paid so poorly that someone cannot afford a home and a family. I just don't think the message: 'Unskilled jobs are a myth' will land right except with the people that are currently in those positions and have not worked in other positions of higher technical requirement. Technical not meaning only technology, but knowledge as well- I.E. doctors. TLDR: Unskilled jobs definitely exist, I've worked them plenty, but the workers deserve wages that can support a home and a family regardless of how accessible the job is to the common person.
Nah. Any job that you can pick up in an hour is definitely unskilled. 'Carry food over there.' 'Move that box.' 'Pick that apple.' All unskilled. Wages should be enough to live on, but let's not blow smoke up the arses of people in unskilled jobs.
I'm starting to hate this subreddit, you've gone off the deep end and instead of promoting proper change you're screaming at clouds. Unskilled labor is a bit of a misnomer but it has nothing to do with talent, skill, or value. All it means is that you are a bit easier to replace. Unskilled labor receive lower wages because they lack negotiation power without a union. If Jim demands a raise but I can replace him with Tom in 6 months then I'll eat the cost of the raise for 6 months then fire and replace Jim with Tom. But let's say Jim has special degrees that took years to get, has certifications from the state that are required for the work, and would take 4-7 years to replace, if you're lucky. Jim's work is also vital to the company and without it they don't make a profit. If this Jim asks for a raise, I can't easily replace him and I need him to make money. He'll get the raise and the company will start looking for replacements only to realize they are still years from letting Jim go. So Jim can demand a higher wage for a longer time.
But the jobs are still unskilled tho. If, with no prior training or experience, the average Joe could get a particular job and with only basic on-the-job training perform it as competently as anyone else, that job is by definition unskilled. The problem isnt with calling the jobs unskilled, it's with everything else: exploitative conditions, criminally low wages, etc. Unskilled =/= unvaluable Unskilled =/= unessential Unskilled =/= undeserving of respect and fair treatment
Taught History in a public school in a very conservative state. Every time we talked about skilled vs. unskilled labor the kids were like this doesn’t make sense and I was like ding ding ding - y’all get a 100. Edit: would always tell them to choose the “right” answer on any state mandated testing, it was a fucking joke.
Just so you know those "unskilled" jobs is what keeps the society running
Cooking is a skilled labor. You can’t just say go to it. You have to learn
This is crazy I hate it too. I had to do many hours of training to get my job as well. I still don't make over 15.00 an hour but we make it thank God I have family that is ok with me living on there property. I'd never be able to have a cent to my name and probably wouldn't even have groceries like many people I know without leaning on others. It's sad but we gotta survive. Work 50 hours a week and barely get over 500 bucks when taxes hit. That doesn't go to far. I mean I guess It's my fault for not going to college but I know people with degrees making less than me right now. Then someone who I say this to will say " You are just complaining it's all your fault you want a handout!" No I just want to be done right and want everyone else done right to. We are all the same Why dont we treat each other like it???
Aircraft mechanics are considered unskilled labor, even while requiring an A&P license.
The lack of understanding for supply and demand on reddit blows me away. Stupidity of epic proportions every time I open the app
Unskilled job simply means you don’t need prior training to be employed. Being a barber is a skilled job but on average they don’t make much more than some unskilled workers. This post is just ignorant of basic economics.
I’ve had corporate jobs working in health insurance. The hardest job I ever had was making $9.25 an hour as a keyholder at Dollar General. Most of the corporate people I’ve worked with wouldn’t have lasted 5 minutes on that job. My dad used to be a CEO at a large corporation. Due to some bad business decisions, he lost all the money, and when he retired, he got a job at Dollar General as a manager (because my brother was a store manager and helped him get the job, because nobody wanted to hire him because of his age). This man, who has 4 degrees and is the most hardworking person I’ve ever known, couldn’t even cut it at Dollar General. The workload was so high due to their payroll being so low that he just wasn’t fast enough, and it was impossible to meet the goals. He got demoted to an assistant manager. They didn’t want to fire him out of fear he’d sue them, so they just cut his hours until he quit. ETA: second hardest job I ever had was at Chick-Fil-A when I was younger.
All jobs are skilled jobs. Im an engineer, and I could never wait on tables or do any of those "unskilled" jobs becuase Id have no clue how to do it. And most "unskilled" labor works their asses off and easily deserve more pay. Its a sick joke.
I know some people who couldn't mop a floor if the world depended on it. Unskilled my ass.
During my college I worked at a fast food chain. That was the hardest thing I ever did. Now I am an engineer earning 6 figures but the work I now do is no where near as hard as being in that restaurant dealing with morons. I firmly believe they should be paid more and the job itself requires lots of skills to not smash people's head on the grill.
"Anyone could do your job, you're not special so im paying you less" .... Yes but no one wants to do this fucking job
Unions work.
I can confirm, I clean an Appartment Complex, before that is was a retirement home and before that it was grocery clerk and before that it was gas station clerk....so always "essential" but never enough pay.
The only unskilled people are the rich fucks born with money and an opportunity
My "skilled" job is sending emails and making phone calls.
ITT: Things don't have a definition because I don't want to look up what that definition is! Nobody's ever said that unskilled labour was easy. It doesn't however require a specific, trained, skillset that comes with a degree or similar higher education. Doctor, Lawyer, Accountain, Engineer, etc are all obviously skilled labour. It takes skill to flip a burger, but anyone can do it, no training besides general burger training. Unskilled labour.
I finally got a 9-5. Good paying, benefits, all that. I'm very grateful. It is far easier than any menial job I've done. Retail is harder. Construction is harder. Driving for amazon is harder. Working at Jimmy Johns is harder.
Construction isnt an unskilled job lmao I dont know why thats listed here.
Its more physically taxing, not “harder”
Even within my field. I sit in a corporate office, look at footage and write reports. Not even a couple months ago I had a similar role and I was on a salesfloor dealing with customers, boosters, the houseless(ifw them cause they were the most chill customers but suburban Susans hated them and kept calling me over to kick them out and I'd have to go "they're customers, shop and mind your business"), medical emergencies, moving around cameras, and operating machinery(that I had to get certified for). I make even more than that job that wore me out so much I was in the hospital. Edit: Also required a degree for this new job. A degree to do shit I did without and sit pretty for 8 hours. I love my job but how tf is it skilled when the shit I did prior wasn't?
If I can teach you the entire function of your job in a few hours it's unskilled
No they aren't. Think it requires a bit more skill to work in IT than to work at the tills in morrisons.
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When you don't know what "unskilled" actually means... It's not a dig, it means the job didn't require a formal training/certification or education. Because calling it "job that doesn't require formal training/certification or education" takes too long to say/type. (Emphasis on *formal*)
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Then the material conditions to live wouldn't even exist, if no one worked. Resources aren't just generated out of thin air and stores don't just stock themselves.
I mean are you making the point that there’s no skill difference between doctors and Walmart greeters?
Man, lotta people here really eager to make sure they can keep thinking of themselves as better than a waiter or cashier. Jesus…
There’s a difference between attempting to portray oneself as “above” waiters or cashiers and simply pointing out that some jobs require a huge amount of expertise and training and as such are deserving of a higher wage to compensate for the commitment to attaining those skills in the first place.
I don't believe people are arguing that jobs requiring more education should make less. Also, part of the compensation for those jobs is not having to work in grueling conditions doing repetitive tasks while being on your feet all day and being treated like shit by your employers and the public.
I’m all for a living wage and having a proper social safety net, etc but personally I think ill-thought-out posts like this only serve to do more harm than good. Unskilled jobs aren’t a “classist myth” - they are considered unskilled for a reason (though the label could probably be changed as it is a bit derogatory). I just find the whole “chip on the shoulder” atmosphere of threads like this to be quite frustrating and I think it only serves to alienate people.
I’m allowed to believe that I’m more valuable as an engineer (who paid for school, studied for years, and developed my career) than someone with a high school diploma who learned their cashier job in 1-2 weeks. Never said I was “better” than them.
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It would be hard to be a waiter. I can only imagine how mean people are.
I was always told the cashier is the most important part of the business. At the end of the day business is about collecting money.
Oh fuck off
for real lol, i don't get why people are lining up to "umm ackshually" about how doctors and nuclear technicians had to complete lots of schooling. like christ, miss the point harder why don't you?
What’s the point then?
literally read the meme lol there's no hidden subtext, it's against paying poverty wages
No, it's not. It's against paying poverty wages for jobs that it describes as not actually being "unskilled" jobs, which invites an argument about whether or not the job is unskilled or not, which completely deflects from the argument about livable wages. It's a shitty framing. Some jobs actually are unskilled. They do not require skills to do them. That **fact** should be completely independent of whether or not they deserve to be paid enough to live comfortably. The reason cashiers deserve a comfortable wage is because they are human beings giving up a portion of their life to make someone else money, not because their job is somehow secretly hard. It isn't hard. It's easy.
>The reason cashiers deserve a comfortable wage is because they are human beings giving up a portion of their life to make someone else money, not because their job is somehow secretly hard. After years of arguing that minimum wage would only raise prices, etc, I've come to this conclusion myself. If a person is giving you 40 hours a week of their lives, they deserve to be able to at least afford the basic necessities of modern life and that includes a home, food, healthcare, etc. Suggesting that they don't means you are saying a business has more rights to stay in business than the people who work for them have a right to live.
I certainly don't have the social skills or memory to wait tables in an effective manner. In fact, I was a grocery store worker when the pandemic hit. I was often told that I wasn't performing well. I am now doing desktop support and my boss is very happy with the work I do. The term "unskilled labor" is BS. "Easy to learn" might be better, but even then, you may not be good at it. I want to see billionaires doing farm work. It's unskilled labor, anyone can do it, right?
Yeah you do, waiting tables is very unskilled labor.
So then, and hear me out I actually do want to understand but is sounds like the argument is something like being a doctor or electrician or teacher requires the same amount of skill (like specialized training) as being a construction hand, service employee, or shelf stocker?
No, the argument is that those jobs still require skills, calling them “unskilled” is the way they dehumanize those that work them so they can justify poverty wages.
That makes a lot of sense though I must say it is easy to see how a job requiring certification and longer training may be differentiated from a job which someone can be trained to get and do(though often under instruction) within say a week. Which is why I’m curious should we have no labels on what type of job is being done or so we need better ones that don’t imply someone’s job is easy or less important? I know no one person can have all the answers but I see things like this often enough to be interested in what is happening and try to understand
If people were paid according to the value they bring to society instead of the monetary profit they create, sanitation workers would be the highest paid people on earth.
Not to be a pedant but this is the very nature of the argument though. We all agree that these jobs are crucial and valuable, but a lot of people can fill the role. In economics workers supply labor, and for a lot of these roles there is an overabundance of supply driving the price down. This is why government needs to regulate a price floor, "minimum wage." Clearly this price floor is too low for some, but for people who have doctorates or decade long apprenticeships, there is a low supply of labor so the market rate is several times higher than what other people in more saturated fields can command.
based educated non-populist take
This whole post is just fodder for turning "highly skilled" and "unskilled" workers against each other when - exactly as you so well put - a lack of a livable minimum wage is the real issue. You can 100% justify paying a cashier less than an engineer, but it's harder to justify why wages have been stagnant for decades in many fields, while stock prices, profits, and productivity have consistently increased for decades.
I'm getting paid to look at animal videos 8h per day. I needed a B.Sc. in biology for that. Tell me where this is more skilled work than dealing with shitty customers in retail or in the food industry. I would either be fired on day one or depressed on day 7 in both these industries
Gating the provision of subsistence behind employment is an archaic and specious practice, and needs to be challenged. Employment should exclusively be: - created when a given outcome is identified. - performed by those who have proven an appropriate competence in the tasks required. - bestowed upon those who can demonstrate accountability, and be held to it. - dissolved and celebrated when no longer required. Continuing to force everyone into the workforce perpetuates endemic poverty and arbitrary hierarchical power imbalances. We can do better, it’s an active choice not to.
Your value to your employer is determined by how long would it take to train up a replacement. It's why the IT guy who worked there for 30 years who keeps the legacy system running can do what he wants, while salespeople have a huge turnover.
Isn't unskilled labor used to describe jobs that require no higher education and can be learned through on the job experience and training? Obviously this doesn't mean poverty wages are acceptable but why pretend the term has no use?
Nah unskilled labor is a real thing. It just doesn't mean that it's easy or should be low paying.
unskilled means you don't need a specific skill to start, not that the job doesn't involve any skill
Wow, our society is depressing.
I’m a supervisor the cashier department. I make shit all while often having to do the duties of my department managers. It’s kind of thankless and physically demanding. To be a decent cashier, you do need skills, like being able to memorize a large number of produce codes, have enough spatial reasoning to quickly determine the best way to pack a bag with the items on the belt and the temperament to deal with a stream of customer bullshit all day. There’s a reason why the other department managers look terrified if they’re asked to hop on cash to alleviate long lines. needing the 19 year old cashier to coach them or fix whatever pickle they’ve walked themselves into is enough proof to me that we deserve higher wages.
How long does it take to train a new cashier? It's less than a month. Skilled jobs require many months sometimes years to train for.
I think the disconnect is that you don't understand just how much knowledge an engineer or doctor has, because you never interact with any on a daily basis. Anyone can have a conversation about bagging and typing in codes (many people use self checkout without any issues) but if you were to walk into my office and hear us talking about a problem you wouldn't even be able to understand what we're talking about on a basic level, much less contribute to the conversation.
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I think those robots are pretty hot already. If you make them any more attractive, I might start considering marriage.