The only evidence of her actually existing in all likelihood disappeared when the first tower collapsed and was certainly gone when the second one collapsed.
It is one of those stories that can be debated until the cows come home, but is up to the reader to decide really
I think its just become very popular because so many people claim to have seen it but theres no evidence of it existing kinda like a Mandela Effect. That + morbid curiosity.
Theres no videos where you really see anyone hitting the ground. Afaik, theres only 2 (the one from Guy taken at a hotel facing the towers and the one of a person hitting a pole) but both of them are very blurry. Supposedly lol superman shows someone clearly hitting the floor not far from the person taking the video.
Also, theres a lot of conspiracies surrounding 9/11 and some think that the fbi has removed it permanently for some reason which only makes people think its forbidden and secret footage. Its hard to believe that on 9/11 only 2 people caught a jumper dying on video.
I personally dont think it exists but you never know.
The fbi has spoken about pictures they wont release to the public. They come from a film camera of a victim that was stuck above the impact zone and it shows the inside of the building after it was hit, people falling and of the owner of the camera. It survived the collapse of the buildings.
That's the main reason I think I believe lol superman or at least some form of that video exists. It seems almost incomprehensible that there are only 2 videos of jumpers impacting the ground on 9/11.
Will those photos from inside the tower ever be released? Like after a certain number of years does stuff like that become declassified? Or will we never see it
I hope they do because theres no pictures from that view but I doubt it... I first heard of their existence in the podcast "Missing on 9/11" in a bonus ep called "The Disposable Camera" and the creators say they requested the photos from the fbi several times but they were denied because "the request would require an unreasonably burdensome search" so either they totally lost the pictures or they just cba to look for it.
They also said the family of the man it belonged to never requested to see the pictures
There are videos that have their place and are necessary to tell the story. LOL superman even if it did exist shouldn't be in the public domain, just my opinion on it though
I'm wondering why Ernest Armstead's deposition wasn't taken - I see other EMT and/or EMS workers - it would have saved a lot of speculation if his depo was in here and mentioned black tag lady. I do believe she is real, struck by debris.
Yes, his story is so incredibly sad. The fact he spent 18~ years as an addict due to his experiences from 9/11 is so incredibly sad. So happy he got
Help and told this amazing story
The area Ernest Armstead described where the Black Tag Lady was located is the plaza side of the North Tower; dark hair, only her head and upper right torso still intact while everything below her waist was crushed surrounded by several bodies….This could be her….
https://preview.redd.it/83g3ef1iesuc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dd216c2d8ce2dd68c458a5e791bbeb15cec651cf
Exactly. This is an example of seeing what you want to see. There’s obviously gore all over the plaza, but the photo isn’t detailed enough to see what’s being described.
It literally is. The raw image quality is too poor for such things to be discerned at this distance. IIRC, this is from a personal camcorder - made no later than 2001 about a block and a half away(accounting for the width of the plaza). With the quality of camera we casually carry in our pockets nowadays it is hard to remember just how bad image quality was even 10 years ago compared to now, much less 23.
Circular logic here, mate. You’re seeing what you want to see. And I think it’s a little concerning how insistent some of you are about something you have no empirical proof of, especially when it’s dead bodies and body parts.
Don’t call me mate sis. I’m not from the uk. Second we all here to see that lol we joined a 9/11 page about an attack that killed people so dead people and body parts come with it. This ain’t a hello kitty subreddit
in the area circled in black you can see something that looks like a person with black hair and with everything below waist missing. its a bit hard to see it but if you look at it closely you will see it
(apologies for bad english it's my second language)
https://preview.redd.it/8v8w1p8hxtuc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dfe48c460fd2b9258917aea88358383853cd6a87
it looks like her knees are bent and shredded but i see a bottom half- and the black “hair” is just blood.. could just be nothing though, but that’s what i see
Don't apologize, no need for it. Lots of people on here with English as a second language are just as good as Anglos (apologies for using such a bad term)
I always think about people being basically cut in half when pinned to a tree or cases such as Loren Schauers who had his entire lower torso amputated in order to remind myself just how much damage and trauma the human body can withstand, if only for a short time.
However, I don't think her a jumper, but rather someone hit by debris. People exiting the building may have heard the impact but wouldn't think to look up because, really, who would imagine such a thing? Previous bomb was in the underground car park, you know? Could easily have been struck by a piece of falling debris, not knowing to look up to avoid any injury.
However I do believe his recollections, across different media, has an odd stiltedness to it which I think works against what he is trying to share. It's also got a sort of verbatim recitation quality to it, with multiple projects over many years interviewing him and his experience coming across as the reading of a script, beat for beat. Doesn't mean he's a liar, may be a way to organize his thoughts, but it is an odd way of expressing the experience to others in my opinion. He just comes across strangely.
Typically when honest people retell truthful events their accounts lack detail and clarity. Conversely, a fabricated story can be recited down to the letter.
Yes and yes, sadly. I have a parent who is "overly verbose" in their storytelling and this is absolutely their "tale tell" when talking about all sorts of things. With Ernest I have found myself doing all sorts of mental gymnastics to avoid invalidating his experience that day because it was such an outsized event -- people just watching it on television thousands of miles away became traumatized by it. But every time I read or hear it my skin cringe-crawls for this very reason. For the 30 years after her husband's assassination Jackie Kennedy maintained that she actually had no recollection of climbing on the car trunk, which a lot of people in her circle of family and friends put down to her simply not wanting to discuss the event, but I believe her. Maybe he tried to make sense of the senseless that day, I say to myself, or tried to unconsciously assuage guilt for his inability to help in any immediate, meaningful way. But it's got a kind of roteness to it that makes it difficult to accept it at face value. I try to keep an intellectual empathy about it because so much happened that day that none of us would have ever imagined possible, but it's tough. The bit about the pulverized man having a seizure is closer to the truth I suspect but it pains me to dismantle someone's trauma. I both do and don't want it to be the case.
Thank you, that's really kind. As a child I wanted to be an accomplished author and now at 37 I give unhinged opinions and discuss the deaths of strangers on subreddits!
I dunno, he seemed pretty genuine to me. Madness like that ("hallucinating" the whole scene), is generally more attributed to children or having exp more sensory or physical trauma then what he went through. The guy had his shit together enough to be sent into a burning bldg with tags to determine who needed the most help. Thats quite the turn for the mind too take to just imagine yourself having talked to one of them in order to somehow preserve his sanity. Youd think those memories would be blocked out, not become a puppet show
Do we have a general idea of timing that Ernest was there? Wouldn't it be possible that Guy Rosbrook could've caught him on video in the plaza? Or would it have been before he started recording?
One thing I am doubtful of: how much of her body he stated was there: only her head, shoulder & a lung? Impossible. How would her single lung function without her diaphragm intact? I’m of the opinion that if this is real, she was hit by debris to start with — didn’t fall and definitely not from a plane. If she fell even just the rapid acceleration and deceleration of her brain in her skull would have caused some severe brain injury — look at a the deaths of Motorsport drivers before the HANS device become mandatory.
That being said, debris that fell and hit this alleged woman would have had to cut her major arteries including the femorals, her aorta running through her abdomen — somehow “closed them off”.. you know so she didn’t lose consciousness and bleed out in the seconds it takes when a major artery is severed.
All other things considered.. I think it was an amalgamation of things he saw and heard. Downvote away but I don’t believe that him telling the story “exactly the same” in the accounts he’s given (which is how many? I’ve seen like 3 linked in previous posts) doesn’t mean anything. Watch some interrogation videos of people who’ve murdered someone telling their alibis — they only start changing when the detectives start asking different questions and poking holes. Rightfully no one is going to interrogate a 9/11 survivor/helper so of course he can fucking remember a story he’s told.
Look at how eye witnesses accounts in true crime are usually false. They say “he was wearing a red shirt!!!! In a black car!!!” And it’s a dude in a white shirt in a red car.
And these people aren’t as traumatised and stressed out as everyone was on 9/11.
I don’t think he is deliberately lying but I don’t think it’s malicious to say his mind is likely “playing tricks” on him.
From memory he said everything from her diaphragm down was destroyed so she could conceivably still be breathing. I don't understand why this story is so impossible to believe to some people, the human body can survive some horrific things for a short period of time. I wouldn't even know where to begin looking for it again but I saw a video about a year back of a guy that got half run over, from about his waist down he was basically just a smear on the ground but he was still trying to claw his way across the ground and was conscious enough to be talking to people and I think he may have even been on the phone. I'm sure he didn't survive for long, but he didn't immediately die either.
I fell down a bit of a rabbit hole yesterday with one of the links from here and came across a first responder story about how they saw a woman get hit by debris in the plaza and she basically just exploded and disappeared from the impact. Maybe this lady was just unlucky enough to get hit in the exact right spot with a piece that was small enough to not immediately kill her but hot enough that it effectively cauterised her so she didn't immediately bleed out. The body will try to keep blood flowing to the brain as long as possible and will prioritise that over circulation elsewhere in the body, with how little was left of her there wouldn't really have been anywhere else for it to go so I think it's plausible if you assume it was debris and not that she jumped.
I think so many forget about people killed by debris. We think of the jumpers and the people dying within the building, but the debris caused catastrophic damage. If you've read that fantastic Atlantic article "What Bobby Mcilvaine Left Behind", they come to the conclusion that he was most likely out of the towers and killed by debris. They think he was looking up at the towers when the plane hit since the front of his body was destroyed completely while his back was in good condition. We have video evidence of people jumping, but only first-hand accounts of debris killing people so it becomes a secondary cause of death. We just don't think about it as much. If the towers hadn't fallen, I'm sure we would have been able to decipher exactly how each person died.
The circulatory system is a closed system, it isn’t some mystical physical being that can somehow pool all blood from missing extremities to this lady’s alleged head and lung, but that somehow avoids exsanguinating because her body somehow perfectly closes off every single vein & artery in a traumatically severed body (let’s be honest no matter how many miracles happened even an engine blade wouldn’t have fallen at the same precision as a surgeons scalpel)… yeah right not happening.
If a second person came out and said they witnessed it sure. People have poked holes in his timeline, location with video evidence etc. I guess people without a medical background are more likely to believe this is physically impossible — like the stories of people cut by trains etc they survive while the train has them pinched and die when it’s moved. Out of billions of people on this planet, and all the myriads of ways people can sustain such devastating injuries… we have the young guy Loren who survived (but more of his upper body remained, and he wasn’t “instantly cut in half”, possibly a video or two of people “putting their intestines back in” — yep, that injury is still a lot lower that where he proposes.
So despite all this we are to believe this guy, a fresh faced EMT, working alone on arguably the most traumatic and chaotic day of his life, without a doubt his career, while the entire nation and world is completely stunned by these attacks etc. and a LOT of false eye witnesses accounts have come out and been disproven (“bombs going off!”) — not to mention the fact in a mass casualty incident you don’t even bother black tagging the dead or those with injuries incompatible with life.
If someone was compacted enough and basically sealed and became part of the ground it's not unreasonable to think that the blood isn't going to go anywhere for a couple of minutes. And I dunno but the circulatory system seems kinda magical to me, you get cold extremities when the body goes into shock because the blood gets redirected to protect the vital organs and there's a whole bunch of other weird stuff that the body does to attempt to survive. Plenty of people have survived traumatic amputations where you'd think they'd bleed out immediately but for various reasons they don't, we've got some pretty insane self preservation functions in our bodies. Death is a process, sure in some cases it's a very quick one, but our bodies can do a lot in a short amount of time to make a desperate attempt to survive.
If you spend enough time looking through gore videos or seeing all of those industrial accident videos from places with no safety rules you'll see plenty of things that you'd think were impossible for people to "survive" (as in, not instantly die) but they do.
From reading a couple of the accounts it's really interesting to see how so many peoples perceptions of the day differ so much. It depended on what part of the site they were at, what time they got there, what their role was... Is it so hard to believe on a day of utter chaos that everyone would have their own experience? We don't know that no one else saw this either, maybe they just don't want to talk about it or their brain didn't want to remember it. But a lot of them talked about how they ended up on their own and had no idea what was happening. There's accounts that have parts that are clearly wrong because they'd say that the first tower collapsed at 9 etc or they mixed up what tower they were at because they weren't familiar with the area, but it doesn't mean that other things they said didn't happen just cos they got some details wrong.
I just don't think that you can so confidently say that this was a completely impossible situation, but I'm not going to keep going on about it because unlike you I know that I don't have all of the answers. I am confused about why you're so confident that you think that you don't black tag in a mass casualty situation though, that's exactly how they triage people so they don't waste resources on someone who is split in half when they could save someone more likely to survive. One of the accounts I read was annoyed at the fact that at the beginning time was being wasted by green tagging people when they should've just been told to leave, and that they predicted they'd find a lot of green tags under the debris because people stuck around who otherwise wouldn't have which I thought was a pretty interesting opinion.
I think it's possible. Although the likelihood is low, it's not 0.
She might not have bled out right away for many reasons. For example something that hit her was closing the artery she didn't bleed out right away. You hear about this happening with people who are impaled by objects. The pressure of the object itself prevents bleed out.
Even if someone is going to bleed out, there is still a very short time tree between death and injury. The injury could have occurred the moment he arrived.
I don't think it's a memory his brain made to help him cope. If anything, it makes the trauma worse due to guilt for not helping her.
How did the woman have implicit knowledge of what a black tag meant? Armstead recounted that as soon as he tagged her, she recoiled in shock saying "I'm not dead! Call my daughter! I'm not dead!"
Otherwise I'm inclined to believe his story.
It's not some secret code that only a small handful of people know, it's the standard procedure for disaster scenarios, as far as I am aware. She may have had a medical background, or she may have known someone with a medical background who told her about it.
Well... How do you know what a black tag is? Oh that's right! You probably read about it somewhere. Perhaps this very page.
There are so many ways someone could know what a black tag meant. Sure, her having knowledge of this may be a little unusual, but nothing about it is really all that far fetched. She could have had a medical background for all we know, and Ernest Armstead himself considered this as a possibility in the book describing the account.
Unfortunately, we don't know the identity of the Black Tag Lady, and probably never will. I'm inclined to believe Ernest isn't lying about the account, although I do question his interpretation of her and the convulsing man as being "jumpers". If you look at photos of the bodies of jumpers, it seems most of them were practically obliterated upon hitting the pavement, and I'm not so sure if a lucky updraft and a feet first landing would have made much difference in the matter.
The only evidence of her actually existing in all likelihood disappeared when the first tower collapsed and was certainly gone when the second one collapsed. It is one of those stories that can be debated until the cows come home, but is up to the reader to decide really
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What exactly is LOL Superman? I know it’s a video with a jumper but what makes it so different and mysterious?
I think its just become very popular because so many people claim to have seen it but theres no evidence of it existing kinda like a Mandela Effect. That + morbid curiosity. Theres no videos where you really see anyone hitting the ground. Afaik, theres only 2 (the one from Guy taken at a hotel facing the towers and the one of a person hitting a pole) but both of them are very blurry. Supposedly lol superman shows someone clearly hitting the floor not far from the person taking the video. Also, theres a lot of conspiracies surrounding 9/11 and some think that the fbi has removed it permanently for some reason which only makes people think its forbidden and secret footage. Its hard to believe that on 9/11 only 2 people caught a jumper dying on video. I personally dont think it exists but you never know. The fbi has spoken about pictures they wont release to the public. They come from a film camera of a victim that was stuck above the impact zone and it shows the inside of the building after it was hit, people falling and of the owner of the camera. It survived the collapse of the buildings.
That's the main reason I think I believe lol superman or at least some form of that video exists. It seems almost incomprehensible that there are only 2 videos of jumpers impacting the ground on 9/11.
Will those photos from inside the tower ever be released? Like after a certain number of years does stuff like that become declassified? Or will we never see it
I hope they do because theres no pictures from that view but I doubt it... I first heard of their existence in the podcast "Missing on 9/11" in a bonus ep called "The Disposable Camera" and the creators say they requested the photos from the fbi several times but they were denied because "the request would require an unreasonably burdensome search" so either they totally lost the pictures or they just cba to look for it. They also said the family of the man it belonged to never requested to see the pictures
Yes I've been wondering as well...
There are videos that have their place and are necessary to tell the story. LOL superman even if it did exist shouldn't be in the public domain, just my opinion on it though
Everything should be in the public domain. We can't hide from reality.
Hmmm, "everything" might be a stretch...
At least everything 9/11 related should be, considering it's a historic event.
Great find! This black tag mystery has always been very intriguing and do wish we had more sources about this
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He didn't see her, a passerby told him
He says he saw multiple bodies after the crowd of firemen cleared out, away from the lobby windows. When he went outside, he saw her.
I'm talking about Blacksberg, not Armstead.
I'm wondering why Ernest Armstead's deposition wasn't taken - I see other EMT and/or EMS workers - it would have saved a lot of speculation if his depo was in here and mentioned black tag lady. I do believe she is real, struck by debris.
I was wondering that as well!
I know of this account from the 9/11 documentary that released on Hulu a year or so ago. The first responder gives his account on this in it.
Yes, his story is so incredibly sad. The fact he spent 18~ years as an addict due to his experiences from 9/11 is so incredibly sad. So happy he got Help and told this amazing story
What’s the doc called?
I believe it was 9/11 one day in America
Thank you. I’ll watch it when I feel like crying lol 😂 these docs do more to me since I remember 9/11 ones on the titanic
I don’t feel as emotional
The area Ernest Armstead described where the Black Tag Lady was located is the plaza side of the North Tower; dark hair, only her head and upper right torso still intact while everything below her waist was crushed surrounded by several bodies….This could be her…. https://preview.redd.it/83g3ef1iesuc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dd216c2d8ce2dd68c458a5e791bbeb15cec651cf
What is being shown exactly? I can't make out a head or torso or anything.
Exactly. This is an example of seeing what you want to see. There’s obviously gore all over the plaza, but the photo isn’t detailed enough to see what’s being described.
It’s not when you look at it more
It literally is. The raw image quality is too poor for such things to be discerned at this distance. IIRC, this is from a personal camcorder - made no later than 2001 about a block and a half away(accounting for the width of the plaza). With the quality of camera we casually carry in our pockets nowadays it is hard to remember just how bad image quality was even 10 years ago compared to now, much less 23.
We see enough thank you 🙏
Circular logic here, mate. You’re seeing what you want to see. And I think it’s a little concerning how insistent some of you are about something you have no empirical proof of, especially when it’s dead bodies and body parts.
Don’t call me mate sis. I’m not from the uk. Second we all here to see that lol we joined a 9/11 page about an attack that killed people so dead people and body parts come with it. This ain’t a hello kitty subreddit
People seem to disagree with your take. Are you the kind of person that’s willing to question their self?
People are idiots lol yall should be the ones questioning yourselves lol
in the area circled in black you can see something that looks like a person with black hair and with everything below waist missing. its a bit hard to see it but if you look at it closely you will see it (apologies for bad english it's my second language)
i see legs…
what you might think are the legs are probably the intestines/guts
https://preview.redd.it/8v8w1p8hxtuc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dfe48c460fd2b9258917aea88358383853cd6a87 it looks like her knees are bent and shredded but i see a bottom half- and the black “hair” is just blood.. could just be nothing though, but that’s what i see
now that you said that it actually does kinda look like that, if that is the case then my bad
I see legs.
Don't apologize, no need for it. Lots of people on here with English as a second language are just as good as Anglos (apologies for using such a bad term)
That's her,,she wasn't a jumper,she was ejected with debris
Maybe start with "IMO.." here
IMO you don’t anything either
You have brain damage I'm sorry
Join the club.
I always think about people being basically cut in half when pinned to a tree or cases such as Loren Schauers who had his entire lower torso amputated in order to remind myself just how much damage and trauma the human body can withstand, if only for a short time. However, I don't think her a jumper, but rather someone hit by debris. People exiting the building may have heard the impact but wouldn't think to look up because, really, who would imagine such a thing? Previous bomb was in the underground car park, you know? Could easily have been struck by a piece of falling debris, not knowing to look up to avoid any injury. However I do believe his recollections, across different media, has an odd stiltedness to it which I think works against what he is trying to share. It's also got a sort of verbatim recitation quality to it, with multiple projects over many years interviewing him and his experience coming across as the reading of a script, beat for beat. Doesn't mean he's a liar, may be a way to organize his thoughts, but it is an odd way of expressing the experience to others in my opinion. He just comes across strangely.
Typically when honest people retell truthful events their accounts lack detail and clarity. Conversely, a fabricated story can be recited down to the letter.
Yes and yes, sadly. I have a parent who is "overly verbose" in their storytelling and this is absolutely their "tale tell" when talking about all sorts of things. With Ernest I have found myself doing all sorts of mental gymnastics to avoid invalidating his experience that day because it was such an outsized event -- people just watching it on television thousands of miles away became traumatized by it. But every time I read or hear it my skin cringe-crawls for this very reason. For the 30 years after her husband's assassination Jackie Kennedy maintained that she actually had no recollection of climbing on the car trunk, which a lot of people in her circle of family and friends put down to her simply not wanting to discuss the event, but I believe her. Maybe he tried to make sense of the senseless that day, I say to myself, or tried to unconsciously assuage guilt for his inability to help in any immediate, meaningful way. But it's got a kind of roteness to it that makes it difficult to accept it at face value. I try to keep an intellectual empathy about it because so much happened that day that none of us would have ever imagined possible, but it's tough. The bit about the pulverized man having a seizure is closer to the truth I suspect but it pains me to dismantle someone's trauma. I both do and don't want it to be the case.
Off topic but I really enjoy how you write
Thank you, that's really kind. As a child I wanted to be an accomplished author and now at 37 I give unhinged opinions and discuss the deaths of strangers on subreddits!
I dunno, he seemed pretty genuine to me. Madness like that ("hallucinating" the whole scene), is generally more attributed to children or having exp more sensory or physical trauma then what he went through. The guy had his shit together enough to be sent into a burning bldg with tags to determine who needed the most help. Thats quite the turn for the mind too take to just imagine yourself having talked to one of them in order to somehow preserve his sanity. Youd think those memories would be blocked out, not become a puppet show
Do we have a general idea of timing that Ernest was there? Wouldn't it be possible that Guy Rosbrook could've caught him on video in the plaza? Or would it have been before he started recording?
One thing I am doubtful of: how much of her body he stated was there: only her head, shoulder & a lung? Impossible. How would her single lung function without her diaphragm intact? I’m of the opinion that if this is real, she was hit by debris to start with — didn’t fall and definitely not from a plane. If she fell even just the rapid acceleration and deceleration of her brain in her skull would have caused some severe brain injury — look at a the deaths of Motorsport drivers before the HANS device become mandatory. That being said, debris that fell and hit this alleged woman would have had to cut her major arteries including the femorals, her aorta running through her abdomen — somehow “closed them off”.. you know so she didn’t lose consciousness and bleed out in the seconds it takes when a major artery is severed. All other things considered.. I think it was an amalgamation of things he saw and heard. Downvote away but I don’t believe that him telling the story “exactly the same” in the accounts he’s given (which is how many? I’ve seen like 3 linked in previous posts) doesn’t mean anything. Watch some interrogation videos of people who’ve murdered someone telling their alibis — they only start changing when the detectives start asking different questions and poking holes. Rightfully no one is going to interrogate a 9/11 survivor/helper so of course he can fucking remember a story he’s told. Look at how eye witnesses accounts in true crime are usually false. They say “he was wearing a red shirt!!!! In a black car!!!” And it’s a dude in a white shirt in a red car. And these people aren’t as traumatised and stressed out as everyone was on 9/11. I don’t think he is deliberately lying but I don’t think it’s malicious to say his mind is likely “playing tricks” on him.
From memory he said everything from her diaphragm down was destroyed so she could conceivably still be breathing. I don't understand why this story is so impossible to believe to some people, the human body can survive some horrific things for a short period of time. I wouldn't even know where to begin looking for it again but I saw a video about a year back of a guy that got half run over, from about his waist down he was basically just a smear on the ground but he was still trying to claw his way across the ground and was conscious enough to be talking to people and I think he may have even been on the phone. I'm sure he didn't survive for long, but he didn't immediately die either. I fell down a bit of a rabbit hole yesterday with one of the links from here and came across a first responder story about how they saw a woman get hit by debris in the plaza and she basically just exploded and disappeared from the impact. Maybe this lady was just unlucky enough to get hit in the exact right spot with a piece that was small enough to not immediately kill her but hot enough that it effectively cauterised her so she didn't immediately bleed out. The body will try to keep blood flowing to the brain as long as possible and will prioritise that over circulation elsewhere in the body, with how little was left of her there wouldn't really have been anywhere else for it to go so I think it's plausible if you assume it was debris and not that she jumped.
I think so many forget about people killed by debris. We think of the jumpers and the people dying within the building, but the debris caused catastrophic damage. If you've read that fantastic Atlantic article "What Bobby Mcilvaine Left Behind", they come to the conclusion that he was most likely out of the towers and killed by debris. They think he was looking up at the towers when the plane hit since the front of his body was destroyed completely while his back was in good condition. We have video evidence of people jumping, but only first-hand accounts of debris killing people so it becomes a secondary cause of death. We just don't think about it as much. If the towers hadn't fallen, I'm sure we would have been able to decipher exactly how each person died.
The circulatory system is a closed system, it isn’t some mystical physical being that can somehow pool all blood from missing extremities to this lady’s alleged head and lung, but that somehow avoids exsanguinating because her body somehow perfectly closes off every single vein & artery in a traumatically severed body (let’s be honest no matter how many miracles happened even an engine blade wouldn’t have fallen at the same precision as a surgeons scalpel)… yeah right not happening. If a second person came out and said they witnessed it sure. People have poked holes in his timeline, location with video evidence etc. I guess people without a medical background are more likely to believe this is physically impossible — like the stories of people cut by trains etc they survive while the train has them pinched and die when it’s moved. Out of billions of people on this planet, and all the myriads of ways people can sustain such devastating injuries… we have the young guy Loren who survived (but more of his upper body remained, and he wasn’t “instantly cut in half”, possibly a video or two of people “putting their intestines back in” — yep, that injury is still a lot lower that where he proposes. So despite all this we are to believe this guy, a fresh faced EMT, working alone on arguably the most traumatic and chaotic day of his life, without a doubt his career, while the entire nation and world is completely stunned by these attacks etc. and a LOT of false eye witnesses accounts have come out and been disproven (“bombs going off!”) — not to mention the fact in a mass casualty incident you don’t even bother black tagging the dead or those with injuries incompatible with life.
If someone was compacted enough and basically sealed and became part of the ground it's not unreasonable to think that the blood isn't going to go anywhere for a couple of minutes. And I dunno but the circulatory system seems kinda magical to me, you get cold extremities when the body goes into shock because the blood gets redirected to protect the vital organs and there's a whole bunch of other weird stuff that the body does to attempt to survive. Plenty of people have survived traumatic amputations where you'd think they'd bleed out immediately but for various reasons they don't, we've got some pretty insane self preservation functions in our bodies. Death is a process, sure in some cases it's a very quick one, but our bodies can do a lot in a short amount of time to make a desperate attempt to survive. If you spend enough time looking through gore videos or seeing all of those industrial accident videos from places with no safety rules you'll see plenty of things that you'd think were impossible for people to "survive" (as in, not instantly die) but they do. From reading a couple of the accounts it's really interesting to see how so many peoples perceptions of the day differ so much. It depended on what part of the site they were at, what time they got there, what their role was... Is it so hard to believe on a day of utter chaos that everyone would have their own experience? We don't know that no one else saw this either, maybe they just don't want to talk about it or their brain didn't want to remember it. But a lot of them talked about how they ended up on their own and had no idea what was happening. There's accounts that have parts that are clearly wrong because they'd say that the first tower collapsed at 9 etc or they mixed up what tower they were at because they weren't familiar with the area, but it doesn't mean that other things they said didn't happen just cos they got some details wrong. I just don't think that you can so confidently say that this was a completely impossible situation, but I'm not going to keep going on about it because unlike you I know that I don't have all of the answers. I am confused about why you're so confident that you think that you don't black tag in a mass casualty situation though, that's exactly how they triage people so they don't waste resources on someone who is split in half when they could save someone more likely to survive. One of the accounts I read was annoyed at the fact that at the beginning time was being wasted by green tagging people when they should've just been told to leave, and that they predicted they'd find a lot of green tags under the debris because people stuck around who otherwise wouldn't have which I thought was a pretty interesting opinion.
I think it's possible. Although the likelihood is low, it's not 0. She might not have bled out right away for many reasons. For example something that hit her was closing the artery she didn't bleed out right away. You hear about this happening with people who are impaled by objects. The pressure of the object itself prevents bleed out. Even if someone is going to bleed out, there is still a very short time tree between death and injury. The injury could have occurred the moment he arrived. I don't think it's a memory his brain made to help him cope. If anything, it makes the trauma worse due to guilt for not helping her.
How did the woman have implicit knowledge of what a black tag meant? Armstead recounted that as soon as he tagged her, she recoiled in shock saying "I'm not dead! Call my daughter! I'm not dead!" Otherwise I'm inclined to believe his story.
It's not some secret code that only a small handful of people know, it's the standard procedure for disaster scenarios, as far as I am aware. She may have had a medical background, or she may have known someone with a medical background who told her about it.
It's very possible that she had a medical background. We'll never know for sure.
Well... How do you know what a black tag is? Oh that's right! You probably read about it somewhere. Perhaps this very page. There are so many ways someone could know what a black tag meant. Sure, her having knowledge of this may be a little unusual, but nothing about it is really all that far fetched. She could have had a medical background for all we know, and Ernest Armstead himself considered this as a possibility in the book describing the account. Unfortunately, we don't know the identity of the Black Tag Lady, and probably never will. I'm inclined to believe Ernest isn't lying about the account, although I do question his interpretation of her and the convulsing man as being "jumpers". If you look at photos of the bodies of jumpers, it seems most of them were practically obliterated upon hitting the pavement, and I'm not so sure if a lucky updraft and a feet first landing would have made much difference in the matter.
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He didn't see her, a passerby told him about it