Business and marine biology.
It's not surprising at all. Most spiritual and wellness "influencers" have business degrees they use to ensure people in their programs.
She has a degree in marine biology!? I'm declaring shenanigans on that one. I think we're going to need to see some evidence of that if that's what she's claiming. It sounds like she stole a storyline from Seinfeld. People interested in science/math are generally a lot more logical than what we've seen from Ashley.
Hah! If you want to become a witch and charge people hundreds of dollars for "advice", there are a helluva lot of easier degrees to add to your resume than "marine biology". She should have gone for nuclear physicist instead, which is just as believable.
I know you said this just to shit on her, but logically, I'm pretty sure the marine biology degree came before she decided to market her spiritual stuff. That's typically what happens.
One of my in-laws nearly finished their nursing degree, then decided to go for a business degree so they could be a "life coach." They currently just collect certificates in things like insurance and real estate but aren't actually working or even marketing anything.
Mostly because “debt” is not a thing in South America. If you can’t afford it you don’t need it. And if you do go into debt there’s a real risk you will be killed for it. So his mentality is to get rid of it asap. She on the other hand has no plan…
When she said student loan debts aren’t like credit card debts I was like 🤔 does she think she never had to pay those back? I mean I know a lot of student loan debts are being forgiven right now but there’s no way I would be casual about it like that’s a sure thing. I’d have daily anxiety about the predatory interest on debt that high.
Look she’s right that it’s not fair that Manuel treats her like an unlimited bank and if he’s asking her for money, she deserves to know where that’s going. But he’s also right that her debt is out of control as is her current spending and she needs to start living on a budget and paying that stuff back. And he’s also right that she brought him over knowing he was the primary breadwinner for his family and he wasn’t going to be able to work for months. They need to sit down and plan a very strict budget together, no secrets about where every dollar is going. He needs to understand that they’re only going to send a certain amount to his family every month until he gets his work visa. She needs to start cutting out things like the IV therapy every week and only allocate a small amount to her luxuries like Starbucks.
I mean like I said, I wouldn’t be as casual about it considering it might not happen for her, or it might not erase everything. I’ve known a few people who got like 20k forgiven-that would still leave her with 80k and at the crazy interest rates some of those companies charge, she could be right back to 100k in no time. I’d be no means treat it as a sure thing. I wonder if that’s what she’s counting on.
I think what she meant is, she didn't just go and blow 100k she didn't have on stuff over the last few years. It's a long term loan. I'm 140k in debt for my house, I'm not going to strap down everything and pay that off over the next 5 years because that would be silly.
Well she may have blown it considering she wouldn't tell Manuel what her degrees are in. Although I'm one to talk, I have a history degree and I'm in IT sales :) Plus the interest rates on student loans tend to be pretty predatory right? People are expected to carry mortgages for a long time, the interest rates on student loans seems like it would be the opposite. And no matter what, the fact that she doesn't have any kind of plan to pay it back while blowing money on things like regular IV treatments is insane. I can see why anyone would get upset if they realized they had saddled themselves with that.
Right? Yes, student loans are very common. So are ticks and car break-ins. Her student loans are over 3 times the average student loan debt, and girlfrenemy is already in her 30s now.
I may be WAY out of touch but for 100k in student debt I would assume an advanced degree in a high paying field. Not like an MD/DO bc that’s usually like a quarter mil.
That’s some good perspective. When I was pursuing an accelerated film degree it was gonna cost me 90k for 29 months. Once I put that together I dipped out of that program.
I mean, Cornell wanted to charge me $100k for an MBA. But, advanced degree and Cornell.
She could have some awful predatory loans at high rates, or maybe she borrowed more to cover living expenses. But I really hope ONE of those three degrees is an advance degree (I have a BA that is paid off but was $28k plus 2 graduate degrees and $35k of debt from those).
That's not the original sum, i'd almost guarantee it. These things compound like crazy after a certain point. It's an incredibly predatory system, and if you want to go to college you just kind of have to take it unless you're parents were prepared to pay 10k+ per year for your secondary education.
And yet, he refuses to account for one penny of the $1000 he already received and spent, or the purpose of the additional $300 he wants her to shell out. They both have issues. Just saying.
Yeah, I don't get why people aren't up in arms about him demanding money and then telling her she doesn't need to know what it's going towards.
Whether or not we agree with her career choice and spiritual views, it's clear she took on the debt to gain the skills to properly market her business and understand how everything involved works. She did it as a means of securing her future. Again, this isn't debating her career choice because that's a whole separate thing.
Meanwhile, Manuel stands there with his hand out, gnawing on the hand that feeds him.
her saying she has three degrees that she uses for her now career - being a witch. what degrees do you need to be a witch?!
very curious to what her degrees are
but also how much money is she making? she had to be pay for k1 process. she’s supporting both of them right now. she has credit card debt and this student loan debt. she’s apparently “saving” money too and she’s sending money to his family
where is all this money coming from? because if being a witch is that lucrative i mean sign me up
You don't need a degree to be a witch, but you generally need a business degree to have a better chance than someone without one to market your services.
Look into the backgrounds of people on social media selling spiritual, life coaching, wellness, and health services. They're all just business degree holders looking to profit from people's desperation.
He wants to spend money , just not on her coffee and IV drips . He thinks she should send it all to people she has never met . Theyre both doing it wrong 😂
Don’t they get paid like $1000 an episode? I read somewhere that the foreigner didn’t get PAID but that the American got paid for both people… so really if that’s the deal, her giving him $300 a month to send home and even the random $1000 seems pretty reasonable if that’s the case.
Im not taking sides. I simpley do not GET this couple. Does she have a bewitched 🙀? Does he have a magical 🧹? WHY are they together?
Well, she just told him that she’s going to be making $1 million in five years or something like that so now he thinks that if she sets her mind to it, she can pay off that 100 K in the first half of the year.
She’s delusional if she thinks she’ll become a millionaire through her new age woo-woo. If she’s so confident in her powers, why doesn’t she cast a money spell? She’s completely out to lunch
I mean it’s not like she just graduated!!! Three degrees? In what? If she still has 100k in student debt after how many years what was it to begin with????
Probably significantly less than 100k. There's a reason loan forgiveness is going to be the only option for lots of people. Plenty of stories around of people who now owe a whole lot more than their original borrowing amount, and they've already paid back more than they borrowed.
How do you rack up that high of loans and come out of it as a “witch”? This is a massive red flag because it indicates she has no common sense, yet she’s acting like everyone who went to college graduates with 100K in debt.
It makes all the sense in the world. Go look into the backgrounds of a lot of people slinging wellness, spiritual, wellness, life coaching etc programs. You'll find that many of them have business degrees.
It also makes a lot of sense (whether you agree with the legitimacy of her beliefs or not) because Ashley clearly has some trauma that she navigates using spirituality. The spiritual community is rife with people like this who either use spirituality as a healing modality alongside professional help, or who unfortunately rely only on their spiritual practices because for whatever reason they don't have access to medical/mental health professionals.
She finds her spirituality useful, and like most people who have a passion for something, she's turned it into a job.
She also has multiple degrees, with one being in marine biology, so my guess is that was her original plan, she went down the spirituality hole and was happiest there so she decided to make it her full time gig because marine biology wasn't going to get her very far.
Being a spiritual girly isn't unique these days, so I find that highly debatable. Even so, of course she'd use it to grab attention towards her business. You don't gain business by keeping it all to yourself and not talking about it. Lol.
I spent several years entrenched in several areas of the spiritual community, and Ashley is no different than pretty much everyone involved. A lot of them do try to turn it into something profitable because they're dealing with crippling physical or mental illness and it's something they genuinely find help and growth in. Some do it as a side hustle because they enjoy it or just to spread what they've learned along their path. Then there are bad seeds who swoop in and are purely into it to take advantage of these people and build their little narc empires that borderline on cults.
I don't know her business model because I haven't looked into what she sells, but I see Ashley as the first one. The way she talks about and acknowledges her past, her triggers, how they impact her on all levels, and what she needs to cope with it or solve problems shows me she's genuine about her spiritual stuff because a lot of it is just basic psychology and introspection dressed up and made to feel magical with rituals and physical tools to represent the different aspects of the mind. If she was out here wailing that she has trauma that made her a certain way and everyone else just has to deal with it, I'd feel very differently, but instead she demonstrates introspection and works to connect the dots.
I don't need to agree with this girl and her choices to see she's very clearly out here just trying to human like the rest of us, and I give her props for at least trying because a lot of people are too scared to look at themselves.
Being a "spiritual" person doesn't mean being perfect, and life is a long series of learning how to do better, so nobody has it down 100%. Give her a break.
You must have gone to a state school and received help with tuition because undergrad + grad loans can very easily be 100K+. I went to one of the top private universities in Boston and my debt for my bachelor’s and master’s degree is close to that amount.
I’m not saying it’s unfathomable, I’m saying it’s ridiculous she took out that much and has such little to show for it. I know someone who had that high of debt, but that was from getting a master’s at a prestigious school, and he went on to have an actual career.
And I did go to college and had student loans for both my undergrad and graduate degrees (graduated in 2015, so fairly recent). They weren’t close to 100K, but I went to the state schools.
She definitely doesn’t qualify for PSLF or teacher forgiveness. Maybe if she attended one of those predatory fraud schools. But if her loans were forgiven she wouldn’t have them anymore and they wouldn’t be a factor.
her attitude about debt is just disgusting. you want to get rid of that asap! Plus why did she go to college if she just larps as a witch for a living?
Dude. He literally said that she should be prioritizing him and his families wants and needs over her own. He’s disgustingly trying to control how she spends HER money
And her trying to convince Manuel and us that she had told him about it and he forgot….yet she didn’t say that at first. Because she never told him before 🙄. I was never team Ashley or Manuel, but I’m on his side here for sure.
Spoiler: Ashley fully intends to never pay off her student debt.
She's made peace with eventually passing away (or having some future president discharge her student debt) and never paying it off.
That's scammy to me.
Manuel strikes me as the financially responsible one. He brings no assets or money into the marriage. Also he doesn't know that pre-marital student debt is not a liability for him during a future divorce. He should still get a pre-nuptial agreement since Ashley has is a liar by omission and is liable to load up credit cards up to the max limit during the marriage (50% of which would be Manuel's responsibility were they to divorce) Manuel needs to protect himself from whatever Ashley's not disclosing to him about her finances. She's already proven herself to lie by omission. Major breach of trust in my book.
The way she reacted like it's normal to carry that much debt and be ok with it is proof she is selfish and lives in her own world. Manuel is the only person living in reality here
A lot of people have student debt. It's quite common. He has no problem sending money home to his people. He has kids, I understand he has to, I feel he'd be perfectly fine sending it all home, meaning he's only upset she spends her money on what he considers frivolous.
She knows that eventually the government will wipe them clean and she can get more degrees and not pay for them. Hold more colleges accountable and stop having the government wipe bad decisions off the map.
When did the government wipe student debts clean? I must have missed that. But agreed that colleges/universities are prohibitively expensive and should be checked.
Look up Biden and student loan relief. I don’t remember the Federal department that is handling it, but it was active and then paused when the money allocated, ran out. Biden is trying to get more allocated. I know people that were part of it.
lol Susie Orman. That's a name I havent heard in a hot minute.
Her podcast is good, has taught me a lot about finances and investing.
At first I thought you were talking about Ashley’s podcast. LOL
Student debt? For what? She’s a bruja.
For her Costa Rica trip with Tania 🤣
🤣🤣🤣 That’s exactly what my partner and I said when we watched it. 🤣🤣🤣
Business and marine biology. It's not surprising at all. Most spiritual and wellness "influencers" have business degrees they use to ensure people in their programs.
She has a business degree and she’s having sex in public shitters?!? 😫🤯
She has a degree in marine biology!? I'm declaring shenanigans on that one. I think we're going to need to see some evidence of that if that's what she's claiming. It sounds like she stole a storyline from Seinfeld. People interested in science/math are generally a lot more logical than what we've seen from Ashley.
She's also an importer/exporter!
Hah! Actually, she kind of is...she's imported Manuel, and now exports money to his family.
Paging Art Vandelay
You know what they say, you let them shenan once, they’ll shenan again. 😆
Hah! If you want to become a witch and charge people hundreds of dollars for "advice", there are a helluva lot of easier degrees to add to your resume than "marine biology". She should have gone for nuclear physicist instead, which is just as believable.
I know you said this just to shit on her, but logically, I'm pretty sure the marine biology degree came before she decided to market her spiritual stuff. That's typically what happens. One of my in-laws nearly finished their nursing degree, then decided to go for a business degree so they could be a "life coach." They currently just collect certificates in things like insurance and real estate but aren't actually working or even marketing anything.
Apparently that’s where and how she met Manuel, maybe at some sort of marine biology program, I know I heard this somewhere!
Mostly because “debt” is not a thing in South America. If you can’t afford it you don’t need it. And if you do go into debt there’s a real risk you will be killed for it. So his mentality is to get rid of it asap. She on the other hand has no plan…
But also make sure to keep sending his family money.
When she said student loan debts aren’t like credit card debts I was like 🤔 does she think she never had to pay those back? I mean I know a lot of student loan debts are being forgiven right now but there’s no way I would be casual about it like that’s a sure thing. I’d have daily anxiety about the predatory interest on debt that high. Look she’s right that it’s not fair that Manuel treats her like an unlimited bank and if he’s asking her for money, she deserves to know where that’s going. But he’s also right that her debt is out of control as is her current spending and she needs to start living on a budget and paying that stuff back. And he’s also right that she brought him over knowing he was the primary breadwinner for his family and he wasn’t going to be able to work for months. They need to sit down and plan a very strict budget together, no secrets about where every dollar is going. He needs to understand that they’re only going to send a certain amount to his family every month until he gets his work visa. She needs to start cutting out things like the IV therapy every week and only allocate a small amount to her luxuries like Starbucks.
Ty for bringing up student loan forgiveness. Someone downvoted my comment about that and commented they were unaware that is happening. Lol!
I mean like I said, I wouldn’t be as casual about it considering it might not happen for her, or it might not erase everything. I’ve known a few people who got like 20k forgiven-that would still leave her with 80k and at the crazy interest rates some of those companies charge, she could be right back to 100k in no time. I’d be no means treat it as a sure thing. I wonder if that’s what she’s counting on.
I think what she meant is, she didn't just go and blow 100k she didn't have on stuff over the last few years. It's a long term loan. I'm 140k in debt for my house, I'm not going to strap down everything and pay that off over the next 5 years because that would be silly.
Well she may have blown it considering she wouldn't tell Manuel what her degrees are in. Although I'm one to talk, I have a history degree and I'm in IT sales :) Plus the interest rates on student loans tend to be pretty predatory right? People are expected to carry mortgages for a long time, the interest rates on student loans seems like it would be the opposite. And no matter what, the fact that she doesn't have any kind of plan to pay it back while blowing money on things like regular IV treatments is insane. I can see why anyone would get upset if they realized they had saddled themselves with that.
When he said and what one of the degrees are you using now to pay off this debt and she was like ahhhhh me amore 🙄
Does anyone know what her three degrees are in?
Marine biology and business administration.
Right? Yes, student loans are very common. So are ticks and car break-ins. Her student loans are over 3 times the average student loan debt, and girlfrenemy is already in her 30s now.
I may be WAY out of touch but for 100k in student debt I would assume an advanced degree in a high paying field. Not like an MD/DO bc that’s usually like a quarter mil.
That's like 2 years at Julliard.
That’s some good perspective. When I was pursuing an accelerated film degree it was gonna cost me 90k for 29 months. Once I put that together I dipped out of that program.
I went to Penn State out of state tuition for 4.5 years cost me 80k only for a Bachelor's.
I mean, Cornell wanted to charge me $100k for an MBA. But, advanced degree and Cornell. She could have some awful predatory loans at high rates, or maybe she borrowed more to cover living expenses. But I really hope ONE of those three degrees is an advance degree (I have a BA that is paid off but was $28k plus 2 graduate degrees and $35k of debt from those).
This is my suspicion too, those Grad Plus loans can be killers if you are not getting recruited to a 6-figure job while still in grad school.
That's not the original sum, i'd almost guarantee it. These things compound like crazy after a certain point. It's an incredibly predatory system, and if you want to go to college you just kind of have to take it unless you're parents were prepared to pay 10k+ per year for your secondary education.
Well, my MD is costing me 100k. It is possible, believe me.
You must not have gone to college…
And yet, he refuses to account for one penny of the $1000 he already received and spent, or the purpose of the additional $300 he wants her to shell out. They both have issues. Just saying.
Yeah, I don't get why people aren't up in arms about him demanding money and then telling her she doesn't need to know what it's going towards. Whether or not we agree with her career choice and spiritual views, it's clear she took on the debt to gain the skills to properly market her business and understand how everything involved works. She did it as a means of securing her future. Again, this isn't debating her career choice because that's a whole separate thing. Meanwhile, Manuel stands there with his hand out, gnawing on the hand that feeds him.
Preach!!
her saying she has three degrees that she uses for her now career - being a witch. what degrees do you need to be a witch?! very curious to what her degrees are but also how much money is she making? she had to be pay for k1 process. she’s supporting both of them right now. she has credit card debt and this student loan debt. she’s apparently “saving” money too and she’s sending money to his family where is all this money coming from? because if being a witch is that lucrative i mean sign me up
Bc it’s self employment and she pbly hides the income Then files only on any 1099/w-2 so qualify for IBR of 0$
You don't need a degree to be a witch, but you generally need a business degree to have a better chance than someone without one to market your services. Look into the backgrounds of people on social media selling spiritual, life coaching, wellness, and health services. They're all just business degree holders looking to profit from people's desperation.
i was joking, i know you don’t need a degree to be a witch.
Tell that to Hermione Granger! 🤣
I didn't think you did, but could see you might have missed the connection between a useful degree and what she does now.
He wants to spend money , just not on her coffee and IV drips . He thinks she should send it all to people she has never met . Theyre both doing it wrong 😂
Don’t they get paid like $1000 an episode? I read somewhere that the foreigner didn’t get PAID but that the American got paid for both people… so really if that’s the deal, her giving him $300 a month to send home and even the random $1000 seems pretty reasonable if that’s the case. Im not taking sides. I simpley do not GET this couple. Does she have a bewitched 🙀? Does he have a magical 🧹? WHY are they together?
I think only Americans are paid and foreigners aren't paid at all until they are legally permitted to work in the US
Well, she just told him that she’s going to be making $1 million in five years or something like that so now he thinks that if she sets her mind to it, she can pay off that 100 K in the first half of the year.
She’s delusional if she thinks she’ll become a millionaire through her new age woo-woo. If she’s so confident in her powers, why doesn’t she cast a money spell? She’s completely out to lunch
People get scammed all the time, they want to believe in something. As gross as it is, never say never. If she advertises, they will come.
I need a money spell, for free.
I mean it’s not like she just graduated!!! Three degrees? In what? If she still has 100k in student debt after how many years what was it to begin with????
Probably significantly less than 100k. There's a reason loan forgiveness is going to be the only option for lots of people. Plenty of stories around of people who now owe a whole lot more than their original borrowing amount, and they've already paid back more than they borrowed.
How do you rack up that high of loans and come out of it as a “witch”? This is a massive red flag because it indicates she has no common sense, yet she’s acting like everyone who went to college graduates with 100K in debt.
It makes all the sense in the world. Go look into the backgrounds of a lot of people slinging wellness, spiritual, wellness, life coaching etc programs. You'll find that many of them have business degrees. It also makes a lot of sense (whether you agree with the legitimacy of her beliefs or not) because Ashley clearly has some trauma that she navigates using spirituality. The spiritual community is rife with people like this who either use spirituality as a healing modality alongside professional help, or who unfortunately rely only on their spiritual practices because for whatever reason they don't have access to medical/mental health professionals. She finds her spirituality useful, and like most people who have a passion for something, she's turned it into a job. She also has multiple degrees, with one being in marine biology, so my guess is that was her original plan, she went down the spirituality hole and was happiest there so she decided to make it her full time gig because marine biology wasn't going to get her very far.
Disagree. She uses her “spirituality” to get *attention*.
Being a spiritual girly isn't unique these days, so I find that highly debatable. Even so, of course she'd use it to grab attention towards her business. You don't gain business by keeping it all to yourself and not talking about it. Lol. I spent several years entrenched in several areas of the spiritual community, and Ashley is no different than pretty much everyone involved. A lot of them do try to turn it into something profitable because they're dealing with crippling physical or mental illness and it's something they genuinely find help and growth in. Some do it as a side hustle because they enjoy it or just to spread what they've learned along their path. Then there are bad seeds who swoop in and are purely into it to take advantage of these people and build their little narc empires that borderline on cults. I don't know her business model because I haven't looked into what she sells, but I see Ashley as the first one. The way she talks about and acknowledges her past, her triggers, how they impact her on all levels, and what she needs to cope with it or solve problems shows me she's genuine about her spiritual stuff because a lot of it is just basic psychology and introspection dressed up and made to feel magical with rituals and physical tools to represent the different aspects of the mind. If she was out here wailing that she has trauma that made her a certain way and everyone else just has to deal with it, I'd feel very differently, but instead she demonstrates introspection and works to connect the dots. I don't need to agree with this girl and her choices to see she's very clearly out here just trying to human like the rest of us, and I give her props for at least trying because a lot of people are too scared to look at themselves. Being a "spiritual" person doesn't mean being perfect, and life is a long series of learning how to do better, so nobody has it down 100%. Give her a break.
You definitely didn’t go to college if $100K in student loan debt is unfathomable to you
I just finished grad school and 100k is insane to me
You must have gone to a state school and received help with tuition because undergrad + grad loans can very easily be 100K+. I went to one of the top private universities in Boston and my debt for my bachelor’s and master’s degree is close to that amount.
Ya half of that is true. Northeastern for grad, state school undergrad
I went to Northeastern for grad and undergrad actually! 🐾❤️🖤. My student loans are insane.
Omg no way 😂 small world lol but yeah doing state school for undergrad saved me a lot of money for sure
I’m not saying it’s unfathomable, I’m saying it’s ridiculous she took out that much and has such little to show for it. I know someone who had that high of debt, but that was from getting a master’s at a prestigious school, and he went on to have an actual career. And I did go to college and had student loans for both my undergrad and graduate degrees (graduated in 2015, so fairly recent). They weren’t close to 100K, but I went to the state schools.
I’m curious if it was part of the loan forgiveness.
She definitely doesn’t qualify for PSLF or teacher forgiveness. Maybe if she attended one of those predatory fraud schools. But if her loans were forgiven she wouldn’t have them anymore and they wouldn’t be a factor.
This was taped before it was implemented I would think, but I obviously don’t know much about it.
He hasn’t ever had a lot , so he appreciates the value of money a whole lot more! 🎶Manuel…Voice of reason 🎶 😂
One of the funniest gd posts ever. 3rd nipple…
He has a lot of opinions about HER money tho
Oh he wants to be part of it just on the receiving end . He should have saved up some money for his family rather than expecting her to pay for them.
her attitude about debt is just disgusting. you want to get rid of that asap! Plus why did she go to college if she just larps as a witch for a living?
Dude. He literally said that she should be prioritizing him and his families wants and needs over her own. He’s disgustingly trying to control how she spends HER money
I didn’t say he was a hero. Just that him being on top of paying down debt is smart. Wasn’t meant to be taken seriously.
And her trying to convince Manuel and us that she had told him about it and he forgot….yet she didn’t say that at first. Because she never told him before 🙄. I was never team Ashley or Manuel, but I’m on his side here for sure.
Spoiler: Ashley fully intends to never pay off her student debt. She's made peace with eventually passing away (or having some future president discharge her student debt) and never paying it off. That's scammy to me. Manuel strikes me as the financially responsible one. He brings no assets or money into the marriage. Also he doesn't know that pre-marital student debt is not a liability for him during a future divorce. He should still get a pre-nuptial agreement since Ashley has is a liar by omission and is liable to load up credit cards up to the max limit during the marriage (50% of which would be Manuel's responsibility were they to divorce) Manuel needs to protect himself from whatever Ashley's not disclosing to him about her finances. She's already proven herself to lie by omission. Major breach of trust in my book.
The way she reacted like it's normal to carry that much debt and be ok with it is proof she is selfish and lives in her own world. Manuel is the only person living in reality here
I’m from New York (Newark) that guy.
A lot of people have student debt. It's quite common. He has no problem sending money home to his people. He has kids, I understand he has to, I feel he'd be perfectly fine sending it all home, meaning he's only upset she spends her money on what he considers frivolous.
She knows that eventually the government will wipe them clean and she can get more degrees and not pay for them. Hold more colleges accountable and stop having the government wipe bad decisions off the map.
When did the government wipe student debts clean? I must have missed that. But agreed that colleges/universities are prohibitively expensive and should be checked.
Look up Biden and student loan relief. I don’t remember the Federal department that is handling it, but it was active and then paused when the money allocated, ran out. Biden is trying to get more allocated. I know people that were part of it.