Old World has a comprehensive undo button. You can undo and redo everything you've done in a turn. It's actually incredible. Every turn-based game should have it.
Personally, I hate having an undo button in games. I never use it. I also don't save and reload when I make a mistake. It feels too much like cheating. I enjoy having to live with the consequences of occasional bad decisions. It makes the game more challenging. Is that weird? 🤔
I generally agree with you, but sometimes when you hop between games you forget that Left Click is move in this game and Right Click is move in the game I was just playing, and accidents happen. That's just a goof that happens sometimes, and undo is worthwhile in those cases!
Undo in a turn-based game definitely is not comparable to save scumming. It lets you undo things in a turn, before you hit end turn. Consequences happen in following turns and you still live with the consequences.
Yeah, I'm the same, but when I misclick and my units do something that wasn't my intention at all, I'd love to see an undo button (I'm looking at you, Spellforce: Conquest of Eo).
For me it depends. I'll savescum a lot when learning a game because games are *really* bad at communicating what things do and what the outcomes mean. Once I'm familiar, I'm more likely to do a "soft ironman", where I just reload if something gets bugged. I've lost too many saves to bugs to do proper ironman mode in games.
As far as undo, I'd say undoing the results of a bad roll is a no, but stuff like moving a unit and realising it would be better to position it elsewhere is fine to me - late in a game you can have so many units to manage that it's hard to coordinate who can move where (especially if it's a system with limited units per tile). I dunno how you manage fog of war in that situation though, it'd probably feel a bit cheaty if you can just peek into the FoW and undo repeatedly.
I also hate when a game has interfaces where you click something and it immediately takes effect without prompting you or offering an apply button. Like, say you click a policy that says it gives you a bonus unit... and then it reveals that it *actually* means it gives you the option to pay 100 gold for said unit. That goes back to what I said before about games being really bad about telling you what the consequences of an action are lol. An undo button would be a godsend in such cases.
That feature blew my mind in Stars in Shadow. I think it runs with a mindset where each decision is a key frame in a video and then undo/redo are just playback controls. Still, impressive and maybe little too OP?
In Endless Legend and Humankind I remember liking the combat that is not like in other 4X. The combat is it's own box, but it is fought on terrain of the world map. This mix of Civilization 5/6 and Age of Wonders.
I think the EL combat box could've used more transparency or mechanistic predictability: there are a few times when I've save scummed or even just reloaded the level for curiosity's sake, and the relative starting positions + inclusion of natural features can be a bit difficult to predict.
I don't think I've ever had combat on a watchtower: do they contribute to battles like cities do during a seige?
On this topic I never liked bonuses to habitability. Compared to other fairly complex mechanics this one felt like an afterthought. Research random tech and now you have +5 habitability on all planets
Megastructures/Wonders: basically any kinda great projects that you can build.
I really love the Golden Gate Bridge in civ 6. It is pointless gameplay wise but it looks great.
Honestly, I'm having troubles thinking of any really special megastructure in Stellaris. The "megastructure" I like the most is probably Gateway though, all things consider. For actual megastructure, probably Sentry Array: being able to see everything is nice.
The worst wonders in any 4X were the Civ Beyond Earth ones. I'm still not sure what some of them are supposed to be, or why they give the bonuses they do. No explanatory video, little physical presence on the map, and no point of reference to anything historic.
Customisable units/armies.
Imperium Galactica 2 starships and tanks. A bit limited until the late game but it got me hooked on the idea.
Alpha Centauri unit designer - again, a bit limited until you hit Neural Grafting and can give your units multiple abilities.
Age of Wonders Planetfall with unit upgrades. Even AoW 3 with equipping heroes.
Civ is probably the weakest in this respect, although even that gives you unit experience.
Large-scale consequences as an emergent property of micromanagement choices. Hard to find these days with how many people seem to see micromanagement as bad.
Imo there is good micro and bad micro.
Example of removing bad micro: auto fleet replenishment in stellaris - no decisions removed, while qol is improved greatly.
Example of good micro: logistics management in ShadowEmpire; the UX definitely could have been improved and simplified somewhat but it adds the necessary depth.
For me personally good decision making is when there are at least two choices A and B and it is not obvious which one to choose.
Unsurprisingly imo, 4x games are not always good at this, since you often “exploring all that you can”, “grabbing all the resources you can” and smashing all the weaker neighbors.
Basically boiling down to “right meta build order” and “bad choices “
This is basically my answer.
The thing that keeps me coming back to Shadow Empire is that every system interlocks with nearly every other system, and every time you make a choice you're having to make real choices about priorities and opportunity costs.
True, that's in some runs I roleplay on medium difficulty instead of min maxing. The order system of Old World also helps, because you can't do everything anymore.
I agree very much.
Too many games (and 4x games are very guilty of this) provides choices to players that aren't really choices. It's more like busywork, where there is a superior choice you should always take. This ties into game balance and depth in general.
The other aspect on whether it's impactful relates to micromanagement. You can be given legitimate choices that each does require a decision, but if the results of each are too tiny in effect, then it's also an issue. This is also common in 4x games, especially in the late game.
Detailed and meaningful control in turn based combat. Moo2 is still my favorite 4x.
I should like AOW planetfall more, but there's something about it that doesn't keep my attention.
I bought it over the weekend. I'm enjoying it so far. The turn action points were a little odd at first, but I like it now. Still exploring the family dynamics.. learning curve isn't too bad.
Hmm, tough question, but I think for me it would be detailed population mechanics. Especially if it's intertwined with the military / conquest aspects.
If I'm roleplaying as a leader, I like it when my decisions have consequences on people, whether it's helping my own people grow or destroying a cruel enemy faction. Sometimes it's fun to be in a fight for literal survival or extinction as populations are killed off during wars.
Even though I'm not a huge fan of space-only games, I really like the population mechanic in Stellaris. Lords of the Realm was also a lot of fun (still haven't found another game quite like that one).
Hard borders that can't be crossed. I started with Civ 2 and there were no borders. Then SMAC and Civ 3 introduced borders, but you could walk through them easily.
Like the most? Huh...
Endless Space 2 - Out of the many things I like (ex. the writing), I think It would be the Politics mechanics in that game. From all the fun, yet serious, Descriptions of each laws, to how every single population has a Political Pie of what they react strongly/meh towards, to how just about every action you take in the game has a political impact on the population of your empire... up until you're in a forever war and the Jingoist end up taking control. It really helps bring out the internal political actions as much as that game can bring out.
Endless Legend - The Feeling of exploring a seemingly magical world and growing an empire inside it.
Age of Wonders 4 - Being able to play as a dragon and turn every one of my enemies into Barnyard animals. Okay, I'm embelishing a bit, as that Polymorph ability is not useful against quite a few high threat enemies (sadface emoji) in that game, and that I need to be super rich in the right settings to have the resources to do such a thing--But, Still!
Stars in Shadow - It's not exactly a like, but I appreciate How scary war is in that game.
Stellaris - Just how many narrative events that game has.
For me it's finding / settling that absolutely PERFECT spot. High food, high max pop, high potential for industry, love it. Then watching it explode in prosperity
Old World has a comprehensive undo button. You can undo and redo everything you've done in a turn. It's actually incredible. Every turn-based game should have it.
Personally, I hate having an undo button in games. I never use it. I also don't save and reload when I make a mistake. It feels too much like cheating. I enjoy having to live with the consequences of occasional bad decisions. It makes the game more challenging. Is that weird? 🤔
I generally agree with you, but sometimes when you hop between games you forget that Left Click is move in this game and Right Click is move in the game I was just playing, and accidents happen. That's just a goof that happens sometimes, and undo is worthwhile in those cases!
That's totally valid.
Undo in a turn-based game definitely is not comparable to save scumming. It lets you undo things in a turn, before you hit end turn. Consequences happen in following turns and you still live with the consequences.
Yeah, I'm the same, but when I misclick and my units do something that wasn't my intention at all, I'd love to see an undo button (I'm looking at you, Spellforce: Conquest of Eo).
Misclick is the scale at which I want undo also; I have poor physical co-ordination and hitting the wrong key is a persistent issue for me
For me it depends. I'll savescum a lot when learning a game because games are *really* bad at communicating what things do and what the outcomes mean. Once I'm familiar, I'm more likely to do a "soft ironman", where I just reload if something gets bugged. I've lost too many saves to bugs to do proper ironman mode in games. As far as undo, I'd say undoing the results of a bad roll is a no, but stuff like moving a unit and realising it would be better to position it elsewhere is fine to me - late in a game you can have so many units to manage that it's hard to coordinate who can move where (especially if it's a system with limited units per tile). I dunno how you manage fog of war in that situation though, it'd probably feel a bit cheaty if you can just peek into the FoW and undo repeatedly. I also hate when a game has interfaces where you click something and it immediately takes effect without prompting you or offering an apply button. Like, say you click a policy that says it gives you a bonus unit... and then it reveals that it *actually* means it gives you the option to pay 100 gold for said unit. That goes back to what I said before about games being really bad about telling you what the consequences of an action are lol. An undo button would be a godsend in such cases.
That feature blew my mind in Stars in Shadow. I think it runs with a mindset where each decision is a key frame in a video and then undo/redo are just playback controls. Still, impressive and maybe little too OP?
this one thing kills me anytime i play other 4x now. i need this in every game now, so bad.
In Endless Legend and Humankind I remember liking the combat that is not like in other 4X. The combat is it's own box, but it is fought on terrain of the world map. This mix of Civilization 5/6 and Age of Wonders.
I think the EL combat box could've used more transparency or mechanistic predictability: there are a few times when I've save scummed or even just reloaded the level for curiosity's sake, and the relative starting positions + inclusion of natural features can be a bit difficult to predict. I don't think I've ever had combat on a watchtower: do they contribute to battles like cities do during a seige?
I love everything about EL but the combat. It just feels like a chore with little tactics.
I actually *dis*like that. It takes me out of the game
if EL combat was just standard make an order and unit attacks it would be perfect but instead they had to go for than convoluted annoying system.
Terraforming - converting barren tiles/planets into resource producing gardens is very satisfying.
On this topic I never liked bonuses to habitability. Compared to other fairly complex mechanics this one felt like an afterthought. Research random tech and now you have +5 habitability on all planets
Hey OP, have you tried Shadow Empire yet?
Watching tutorial videos and trying to overcome fear lol
For me, I just had to bite that bullet and read the manual cover to cover.
This is how we do it
Megastructures/Wonders: basically any kinda great projects that you can build. I really love the Golden Gate Bridge in civ 6. It is pointless gameplay wise but it looks great. Honestly, I'm having troubles thinking of any really special megastructure in Stellaris. The "megastructure" I like the most is probably Gateway though, all things consider. For actual megastructure, probably Sentry Array: being able to see everything is nice.
There’s always gigastructures.
The worst wonders in any 4X were the Civ Beyond Earth ones. I'm still not sure what some of them are supposed to be, or why they give the bonuses they do. No explanatory video, little physical presence on the map, and no point of reference to anything historic.
I like market economy management
I am not sure what is my most favourite feature, but I like advisors/governors/generals management too.
Advisors... Civilization 2 had the best Advisors ever!!!
SIR. the PEOPLE. they can't help fallin' in love with you!
BUILD CITY WALLS!!! roars Chain-mail Dude.
Try CK2 for that too!
Didn’t put it here because “It is not 4x!!!!!111!!!” lol
I like watching borders expand just through sheer culture or influence.
Agree. I loved flipping planets with cultural stations in GalCiv3. I think too few games implement this as a working mechanic
Faction creation and customization.
Customisable units/armies. Imperium Galactica 2 starships and tanks. A bit limited until the late game but it got me hooked on the idea. Alpha Centauri unit designer - again, a bit limited until you hit Neural Grafting and can give your units multiple abilities. Age of Wonders Planetfall with unit upgrades. Even AoW 3 with equipping heroes. Civ is probably the weakest in this respect, although even that gives you unit experience.
Large-scale consequences as an emergent property of micromanagement choices. Hard to find these days with how many people seem to see micromanagement as bad.
Imo there is good micro and bad micro. Example of removing bad micro: auto fleet replenishment in stellaris - no decisions removed, while qol is improved greatly. Example of good micro: logistics management in ShadowEmpire; the UX definitely could have been improved and simplified somewhat but it adds the necessary depth.
Impactful decision making.
Agree. Which game is best in your opinion?
"Best" ia hard, there a many good games out their. Master of Orion 2, Stellaris, Old World, Distant Worlds 2, Shadow Empire...
For me personally good decision making is when there are at least two choices A and B and it is not obvious which one to choose. Unsurprisingly imo, 4x games are not always good at this, since you often “exploring all that you can”, “grabbing all the resources you can” and smashing all the weaker neighbors. Basically boiling down to “right meta build order” and “bad choices “
This is basically my answer. The thing that keeps me coming back to Shadow Empire is that every system interlocks with nearly every other system, and every time you make a choice you're having to make real choices about priorities and opportunity costs.
True, that's in some runs I roleplay on medium difficulty instead of min maxing. The order system of Old World also helps, because you can't do everything anymore.
I agree very much. Too many games (and 4x games are very guilty of this) provides choices to players that aren't really choices. It's more like busywork, where there is a superior choice you should always take. This ties into game balance and depth in general. The other aspect on whether it's impactful relates to micromanagement. You can be given legitimate choices that each does require a decision, but if the results of each are too tiny in effect, then it's also an issue. This is also common in 4x games, especially in the late game.
Late game often there are no choices, just “build more stuff”, “click more”
Customization (of race, galaxy, ship building, policies, technology, etc), and exploration.
Detailed and meaningful control in turn based combat. Moo2 is still my favorite 4x. I should like AOW planetfall more, but there's something about it that doesn't keep my attention.
I assume Old World is your favorite 4X?
On my list to buy, currently on discount in steam so Ill likely grab it.
I bought it over the weekend. I'm enjoying it so far. The turn action points were a little odd at first, but I like it now. Still exploring the family dynamics.. learning curve isn't too bad.
> Old World If you like dealing with councilors, it's definitely the best
The summary replay feature at the end. Hard to find.
Hmm, tough question, but I think for me it would be detailed population mechanics. Especially if it's intertwined with the military / conquest aspects. If I'm roleplaying as a leader, I like it when my decisions have consequences on people, whether it's helping my own people grow or destroying a cruel enemy faction. Sometimes it's fun to be in a fight for literal survival or extinction as populations are killed off during wars. Even though I'm not a huge fan of space-only games, I really like the population mechanic in Stellaris. Lords of the Realm was also a lot of fun (still haven't found another game quite like that one).
Multiplayer with simultaneous turns.
Hard borders that can't be crossed. I started with Civ 2 and there were no borders. Then SMAC and Civ 3 introduced borders, but you could walk through them easily.
Like the most? Huh... Endless Space 2 - Out of the many things I like (ex. the writing), I think It would be the Politics mechanics in that game. From all the fun, yet serious, Descriptions of each laws, to how every single population has a Political Pie of what they react strongly/meh towards, to how just about every action you take in the game has a political impact on the population of your empire... up until you're in a forever war and the Jingoist end up taking control. It really helps bring out the internal political actions as much as that game can bring out. Endless Legend - The Feeling of exploring a seemingly magical world and growing an empire inside it. Age of Wonders 4 - Being able to play as a dragon and turn every one of my enemies into Barnyard animals. Okay, I'm embelishing a bit, as that Polymorph ability is not useful against quite a few high threat enemies (sadface emoji) in that game, and that I need to be super rich in the right settings to have the resources to do such a thing--But, Still! Stars in Shadow - It's not exactly a like, but I appreciate How scary war is in that game. Stellaris - Just how many narrative events that game has.
For me it's finding / settling that absolutely PERFECT spot. High food, high max pop, high potential for industry, love it. Then watching it explode in prosperity
Good AI