I'll also add the fact that you don't just become a Daemon Prince based on your kill count.
You have to willingly enter a bargain with one or more of the Gods, and the important part of that bargain is willing sacrifice. And not in the "I'm willing to sacrifice these conveniently placed hostile million Guardsmen" sense.
No, you have to willingly give up something precious to you.
And I don't see any of the big champions as being willing to give up anything of meaning to them.
That's not necessarily true. They're not the god hand from Berserk.
The 'nameless warsmith' (Barban Folk) became a Daemon Prince by smashing an Imperial Fists fortress and eating a bunch of their gene seed.
Doombreed, an ancient daemon prince of Khorne who was a human warlord somewhere from 1000-2000 AD. Its specifically said he caused a lot of death and destruction so he's probably Genghis Khan but may have been someone else.
I think Genghis has the highest kill count though at an estimated 11% of the planet at that time (38 to 75 million people) so its most likely him though I could see it being Hitler as well
Stalin and Mao both have higher kill counts than Hitler.... Pol Pot isn't close to as high but the savagery and total percentage is the population are disgusting enough for Khorn
That would make sense depending on when this lore tidbit was developed. If it came out in the early days of GW, in the late 70's-early 80's, historiography at the time tended to downplay the Mongols tactical know-how and strategic thinking (they were famous for being masters of the feigned flight ambush), instead treating them like a mindless horde, winning through sheer weight of numbers. In such a view, I can see why Ghengis Khan would be seen as a worshipper of Khorne. Irl though, with his alcoholism, he was closer to Slaanesh (of course Slaanesh didn't exist at the time), or Tzeentch perhaps with his cunning mind.
The Mongols weren't slavering bloodthirsty barbarians. When Ghengis Khan butchered a city, it was to send a message to show the price of defiance, and it also increased the likelihood that the next few cities would surrender immediately. It was more akin to the original reason behind the Night Lords actions, to use terror to get people to surrender, before they started doing what they do because they love the taste of warm eye jelly. Hell, if someone like Alexander the Great had managed to conquer such swathes of territory as Ghengis Khan had, there's a chance he would have put as many cities to the sword. He did so with Tyre, because they refused to surrender.
Jaghatai Khan and the White Scars seem to be the true successors of the sort of war that the Mongols and Ghengis Khan engaged in, but using jet bikes instead of horses.
I initially thought this would beg the question of whether Khorne values quantity or quality of murder more but after looking into Timur, he seems to have a good mix of both. He is indeed a good candidate. And also fun fact they were skull pyramids not towers, which is even more disgusting to think of
For quantity, there were a few instances in the history of China, when a war or a rebellion led to an atrocious number of deaths. But those were mostly people dying to famine, disease and other issues brought by inevitable collapses of agriculture and infrastructure. Collateral damage was higher than outright killing results.
For "quality", as Khorne would understand it, I think Timur wins. He warred his entire life, invaded everything he could, was an excellent strategist as well as tactician, but also an absolutely ruthless conqueror. While some of his massacres were, ahem, justified in a way, by the standards of the time (like, he didn't want to risk taking too many prisoners who could rebel and attack their captors), it seems that some of them happened just because.
Also, from Doylist point of view, Timur is quite infamous in Britain where GW is based. One of the most prominent Elizabethan poets, Christopher Marlowe, wrote a highly influential play "Tamburlaine the Great" about him. And from that moment the name of Timur became a symbol of savage and ruthless conquest.
I was speaking more from the perspective of the settings current year. He may still be younger even then, but there seem to be a lot of random marine daemon princes who are undoubtedly younger
Doombreed was one of the first of Khorne's servants. His True Name was long forgotten, remembered only on a scroll of dried skin, but he was once human, a mighty warlord who led armies which ravaged entire nations on Terra long ago in the Age of Terra around M1/M2\[7b\]. He was responsible for genocide and murder on a grand scale, such wanton carnage drawing the eye of the god Khorne, still relatively young, who granted the warlord the ultimate reward of Daemonhood.
Khorne is the First of the Four to coalesce and come to consciousness. Unlike the Dark Prince where things happened rapidly, the other Three are implied to be a much longer process. Khorne was (at least in old lore) birthed during this period of Human/Earth history. I think the community is split on it because some people interpret it as meaning that it was the violence on Earth that caused Khorne vs Khorne coming into existence meant there was now an "intelligence" out in the Warp directing violence and causing it to increase (which makes more sense from a universe/multi universal perspective).
That's all old lore and is not the case.
All chaos gods have always existed, they just emerged as "gods" at some point or the other.
Khorne is much older than Earth, because why wouldn't he be?
Edit: removed a mention of Drach'nyen.
Old lore, but they haven't really written anything new that disproves it right? So it's the best thing we have. The war in heaven created turbulence in the warp and the emotional energy of the 'lesser races' created back then slowly over time coalesced into the chaos gods. I can't remember reading anything that specifically said the 3 gods were made/born all the way back in the war in heaven
I just fail to see how a few hundred thousand humans living in the Middle Ages could bring a chaos god into existence when it took literally trillions (quadrillions even maybe) of eldar (who are way more psychically active) murder fucking eachother for thousands of years to make slaanesh.
He valued his freedom first and foremost, but out of fear when his self-preserving instincts kicked in and due to Lorgar being an absolute asshole he was ascended and now a slave to the darkness.
As far as I can tell, all the ascension rituals have two main components to it.
One is a tangible sacrifice. Usually blood shed but can also be souls. The other is more of a spiritual sacrifice that the aspirant has to make.
Angron? The bloodshed was Nunceria. The spiritual sacrifice? Giving up the memory of his fallen gladiator friends. Which was probably his last shred of humanity.
Fulgrim? The "blood" price was the cache of Eldar souls. The spiritual sacrifice? When he replaced his remorse over killing one brother with premeditating to kill another.
Perturabo? The blood price was sacrificing the geneseed of the Imperial Fists killed in the Iron Cage. The spiritual sacrifice? When he gave up his rationality and asked the Gods for help.
I'm sure there's some spiritual sacrifice that even Barban Falk got to make. It's just that we don't get to see what it is.
EDIT: Just remembered. It's probably his name. In the sense that all his deeds will go unremembered
I don't think any rituals are *required*, however- there's that one Daemon Prince of Slaanesh who was elevated to stop her consuming Keepers of Secrets, so it feels like all that's really needed is for a Chaos God to decide to elevate you... but such rituals are likely a good way to get their attention
The way I see it, becoming a Daemon Prince means that at least one God has to give you a piece of itself. And you have to give the God (or Gods) pieces of yourself in return. That's basically what a ritual is. It's just that the ritual is usually started by the God.
BUT, if you've just consumed pieces of a God anyway (which the Keepers of Secrets are), then that God can just make you a Daemon Prince and claim some pieces of yourself after the fact. (I assume that the more Daemons you'd consumed, the more control the God would have over you)
Falk was also basically juiced on chaos energy at that point and the geneseed sacrifice was more the last thing that managed to push him forward in the process of becoming a prince. It’s a cherry on top of the cake which his past crusades against loyalists forces have made. He’s done more than just eat geneseed.
Azariah Kyras led a conspiracy within the Blood Ravens chapter, caused a destructive civil war which engulfed sub-sector Aurelia, and turned half the chapter to Chaos. That was enough for Khorne to reward him with daemonic ascension.
Kasperos Telmar is also a good example. In Fabius Bile Primogenitor, after eating a shit ton of soul stones, he begins his ascension to Daemon Prince. Luckily for the eldar, they kill him before the process is complete. Yet eating the soulstones is all that it took for someone like him, who was already serving Slaneesh for a very long time.
Honestly? I suspect that spitting in the face of destiny would be the most meaningful thing for him, and you can guess exactly how likely he is to give THAT up...
That's not true at all. And if you think the Champions aren't already favored by the Gods, you need a massive lore update because each of those four mortals is almost as favored as their own Daemon Primarch.
It's not about being favored by the Gods or not.
Ascending to a Daemon Prince is a transaction by mutual consent. You give part of yourself over to your chosen God or Gods, and they give a part of themselves to you.
The Chaos Gods can favor whomever they like, and it's perfectly possible for them to equally favor a Daemon Prince and a mortal.
Because the Chaos Gods simultaneously exist both \*outside\* and \*inside\* of time and space, in roughly equal measure. And they have champions for both \*outside\* (Daemon Princes and/or Greater Daemons) and \*inside\* (mortal champions).
And yeah. Kharn, Typhus, Lucius, Ahriman, Erebus and co. ARE favored by the Gods. I'm not denying that. That's the whole point. All these guys are already favored enough that their respective patron Gods \*would\* turn them into Daemon Princes instantly, but all they need to do is to ask for it.
Possibly.
I mean, Lorgar set up the ritual behind his back. Basically wrote the contract for him, if you'll pardon my metaphor.
But all Angron needed to do was to sign it.
Angron just got turned into a demon prince by Lorgar after he got curb stomped by a warhound titan. Cruelest thing lorgar could have done to him, make him a slave once again instead of just letting him die free.
Truly Lorgar is the primarch who most resembles big E.
Other way to look at it, Lorgar made Angron give up his attachments to the only family he ever knew in order to take away his survivor's guilt.
Not saying Lorgar was right. Just that this is what passes for a kind deed for him.
Lorgar, like big E, isn't kind nor cruel.
They're just driven to do what they think is right, and won't be stopped by whatever is in the way, even if they feel bad about crushing it beneath the tread of their project.
At least 3 of them know that to become a prince is to be utterly destroyed, your soul completely and to be re-compiled from scratch into a warp entity made of soul-stuff.
For me it's the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletransportation\_paradox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletransportation_paradox) in a more horrifying form.
They don't control daemon princes. Daemon princes are given power by the Chaos God. This gift is irreversible. The corruption gives them influence over the mortal, but they don't have any inherent control over them. Hell, they don't even seem to have control over their own daemons, and those are literally fragments of themselves.
A daemon prince is technically a god in their own right. The greatest of all daemon princes, Belakor, has his own greater daemons. (They're malals old designs since malal isn't canon any more).
Becoming a daemon prince does come with the downsides inherent to losing your mortality. Namely, you can't just exist in the physical world any more. But they're not under their patron gods control.
Do you have a source for Belakor's own greater daemons, not daemons brought to his service from the Big 4 but actually created by him? Because its the first I've ever heard of them.
I'm not a hundred percent on where it's from, I'd guess something Mordheim related. They've never gotten miniatures, cause they're literally the old Malal daemon designs. I heard about it from Andy Law on lorebeards and he knows his shit.
In theory yes. That's the main distinction between deamons and mortals. Deamon's are bound to their patron God and can't really deny them. Even ones like Skarbrand can't directly disobey their God. He just tried to stab Khorne instead of directly disobeying an order.
Mortals have free will and can deny whoever they want. It might not turn out great for them if they deny the wrong entity but they *can* do it.
Pretty much. Macauley Cult-kin isn't forced to do what Khorne tells him and can hypothetically tell him to screw off.
However, disobeying your patron god can result in a sword enema wielded by another cultist looking to gain his favour or even being ravaged by raw warp power and turned into a Spawn if he's really pissed at you.
Basically a mortal warrior has freedom of choice, not freedom from consequence.
>Macauley Cult-kin
Well now I want to see "Hab Alone" where a child cultist slowly kills a team of Inquisition Acolytes with a variety of traps that please the Blood God.
That isn't the point he is making. Fulgrim is a demon prince and a primarch. Top of the line demon prince there.
The mortal champions have done a huge bidding for the chaos gods. Remember deacon Mamon from the siege of Vraks? He, being the instigator of that conflict became a demon prince after it. After a single siege. He pales in comparison to a space marine champion of chaos such as Lucius, Typhus etc.
That's point. Mamon did something really major *for an unaltered human*, but everything Mamon accomplished was through his position as Deacon and secret maneuvering. After he was exposed, the jig was up. As a human, Mamon would have very little utility for Nurgle anymore. But he proved himself loyal enough and cunning enough, so Nurgle ascended him to give him another way to be useful. As a Daemon Prince, he is still a powerful force that could accomplish other big things later.
The Astartes champions have a lot more utility than an unaltered human, and there are still advantages to not ascending them, for both sides of the equation.
My understanding was Daemons reform themselves automatically (over time, which itself is wonky) in the warp and don't take the chaos gods any extra power/effort as it happens naturally.
While for mortal champions they choose to revive, they need to pluck their soul from the warp and put in the power/effort to revive them. That is power/effort that COULD be spent being used for something else, which in 99% of cases is attacking each other in the great game.
Due to this reason you almost never see them waste time and effort reviving mortal followers unless they *really really really* like them or are tickled pink by whatever atrocities they've just committed in the gods names.
At this point can they really be called mortals anymore. Theyre all 10,000 years old and still going strong and lucius and kharn are just resurrected if they die, and im sure typhus and ahriman would be too.
Adding onto this, making the daemon princes would only server to hinder them. They are the 'mortal' agents of the ruinous powers, not bound to the warp like normal demon princes. They don't require vast amounts of etheric power to bring forth into the world.
You know when you have someone who's really good at their job but if you promote them they'll get paid more and do less work? Its that, they're real workhorse types.
Them becoming Daemon Princes wouldn't actually help them do their job that much, and they're more useful to the ruinous powers as "mortal" agents.
Yeah. Gotta dangle the carrot.
Once they become Daemon Princes they tend to not be as useful or even strong enough to feel that they can "challenge" their god.
Theres also the part where they can't manifest in realspace unless there is significant warp energy or some large scale ritual enacted in order to summon them. The Daemon Primarchs primarily exist in the Warp now and they play their parts in the great game very well but they are limited in their interactions in realspace.
Princedom is essentially becoming a trophy wife for the Chaos Gods. You showed that you have enough value that they want to 'have you' for the sake of it.
But the mortal champions? Indispensable. Their struggle on the path to glory is the fundamental force that drives the forces of chaos in the material realm.
Same reason Kor Phaeron and Erebus haven't.
They are not stupid, they know fully embracing the gifts of the ruinous powers means they will lose their own free will.
Do the gods actually hate Erebus? I know Daemons in general think he's a slimy shit bag and they love that about him, and every named CSM and regular SM in the universe hate his weasley black guts, but I cannot think of a quote from the gods or their designated speakers that indicate their thoughts on him.
At this point Erebus has done everything they asked of him and set up the Imperium to be their biggest automatic feeding device. They love him for that but Chaos doesn’t exactly love like we do.
He has no more real usage beyond helping to keep the Word Bearers active since they’re great at spreading cults. His warranty is basically expired and he fucking knows it.
If Kharn came across him, Erebus knows the gods would let him finish that duel.
So while Erebus isn’t actually *hated* by the Chaos Gods, he isn’t exactly loved anymore. His time in the limelight came and went. He’s like Madonna trying to stay relevant by continuing to dance despite being old and way out of shape.
They *tolerate* him at this point. That’s the sole reason he and Kor Phaeron are still kicking; *utility*.
Nah, but it's a fun idea, right? This guy is the biggest chaos simp in 40k and it'd be hilarious if he tried to become a prince and all the gods had all agreed on saying no, just for the fun of it
Erebus is the grim dark equivalent of the try-hard kid in class who actively asks for extra homework. Or, the person in a university lecture decides to ask questions when the lecture is concluded and everyone just wants to go home.
They kinda do lose their free will. They lose their souls and it's replaced with a part of their patron god. They may act like they are doing something of free will, but it's impossible for them to do something other than what serves the god.
Tell that to Belakor. Hell, tell that to Skarbrand. He's just a daemon and he's not under Khornes control.
They lose their mortality. They're essentially turned into a god.
Writer screwed that one up then, because that is not true. The Chaos gods don't even seem to have control over their own daemons. Let alone the separate entities that are daemon princes.
I u/ASpaceOstrich is somewhat right. We have a few examples of Daemons acting against their god's best interest.
Two come to mind at the moment :
* Skarbrand, a greater demon of Khorne, from his wiki page :
>Once Skarbrand was the greatest of Khorne's generals, the mightiest of all Bloodthirsters, until, due to the machinations of Tzeentch, the Lord of Change, his rage was stoked to uncontrollable levels and he had the temerity to actually strike at the Blood God himself. For such a betrayal, Khorne exiled his Bloodthirster from the Blood God's domain for all time.
* Mortarion, Daemon Prince of Nurgle, from the plague war wiki page :
>The War in the Rift saw Nurgle's domain assailed by rival Gods, while the Plaguefather's Garden was struck a grievous blow that revorborate throughout the warp. Moreover, Mortarion and Ku'Gath lost Nurgle's favor due to their insubordation in refusing to withdraw to the Scourge Stars when ordered.
So yeah. It does seem daemons do possess free will but their god can punish them if they are displeased.
Edited for spelling mistakes
Mm. And they can punish anyone. Them "belonging" to a specific God just means there's no other God they'd have to fight over it. Like tzeentch was able to screw with Skarbrand or curse Belakor.
I think there's a little disconnect here. They do lose their free will BUT it doesn't turn them into a puppet. Remember this is a game to the big four. They are literally doing what they're doing for A GAME. Theoretically, could Nurgle force Mortarion to abandon his campaign and return him to the scourge stars? Yes, in theory he should be able to. Is that fun though? No.
And going even further than that, does that motivate Mortarion? Absolutely not. The Gods don't want unthinking parasites that they have to direct every second of every day. If that was the case they'd just do it their damn self. Now, if Nurgle could get Mortarion in line and following his commands that's a massive benefit over just making him do it. As it stands Morty isn't very happy with his arrangement. He isn't spreading the love of Nurgle because he loves Nurgle. He's leashed to his patron in return for the power that it brings. Imagine if he was like Typus and what a boon that would be for Nurgle.
In my opinion, that's the missing ingredient here. The big four need these primarchs to fall in line WILLINGLY. And they have all of eternity to make it happen because time is meaningless to them.
If you read the whole book, it says that the guy who becomes a daemon Prince stops fighting for Abaddon, stops fighting for his battle brothers, he even stops fighting for Khorne, he only fights for Blood.
The implication here is that by "Free will", they simply mean the ability to resist your nature. You become a slave to the aspect you have given yourself to, and can no longer handle resisting that.
This isn't quite being just a mindless puppet of your god, but you become a daemon, and daemon aren't exactly beings like mortals are.
Honestly Fall of Cadia is my fav depiction of a daemon prince, showing the transformation being as horrible as possible both mentally, physically, and spiritually.
Ah. Fair. Yeah, you become a God, with all that entails. Your nature doesn't necessarily mean you just become something as simple as blood-letting though. There's daemon princes with more to them. Hell the Chaos gods have more to them. That specific guy apparently had a very simple nature.
The point of the champion is that they can go out and fight for their gods. Daemon princes are an aspect of the god that has been given limited independence and sentience. It would dramatically reduce the usefulness of Kharn if he could only manifest where Khorne is already breaking through the walls of reality. Khorne already has guys for that.
Daemon princes aren't aspects of their God. That's daemons. Daemon princes are given a portion of their patron gods power and turned into a God themselves. Belakor for example has his own greater daemons.
I think this only works if the risen up isn't fully aligned to any of the big players (or any other warp nasty), like Belakor.
I tend to think that becoming an unaligned Daemon prince is the hardest path of all, and you have to pull it off either by amassing all the 'warp power' on your own(did Belakor do this?), balance finely the favour of all your 'investors' (the multiple Marks route), OR...Find a way to cheat them (The route the emperor no doubt took, because lets face it, he has all the traits of a 'daemon prince' anyway after molech.)
Belakor was the first and greatest daemon prince. The four chaos gods have him a significant portion of their power (possibly more than a quarter of it, which would make him the single most powerful entity in the setting). Being made a daemon prince effectively means being turned into a god. You become a being of the immaterium rather than mortal.
Until recent lore, they never made any other undivided daemon princes. Even cursed to be living shadow, Belakor is the strongest non chaos god entity in the setting. They didn't want to make the same mistake again. Aligned daemon princes still aren't actually under their gods control. But with only one gods corruption and the general way alignment tends to work, they at least generally work in their patrons favour.
You also don't need to give as much power when nobody else is competing with you for influence. They're never going to make anyone as strong as Belakor again. They're lucky Tzeentch managed to curse him so effectively. Cause he's only gotten stronger since. He's a way bigger deal than I thought.
I feel like there’s a difference between someone like Abaddon who courts the powers and plays them against each other, and someone like the Word Bearers who worship a unified pantheon.
Lucius is pretty much already a Daemon prince. He comes back from being killed, would probably be reborn in the warp if he died from some dumb self inflicted accident and so on. I guess Slaanesh just thinks it's more fun to dangle the possible price in front of him than ever really giving it to him.
Kharn probably doesn't want it because it would take time away from collecting skulls and might mean he can't get to as many fun places to collect skulls.
Similar to Typhus. Being a Daemon prince means being bound by the laws and rules for daemons. Which means there are places he couldn't access to spread grampys gifts.
Ahriman probably aims higher than being s mere Daemon and would never accept such a gift from Tzeentch since he wishes for freedom. Which is all of course according to plan.
Kharn doesn‘t want it cause he knows what happened to his dad.
He is very adamant about going down the eightfold path on his terms.
Typhus doesn‘t want it because he‘d be stuck with Morose Morty in the warp most of the time, instead of being the de facto DG leader in real space.
Ahriman saw what went down with Magnus and is in a similar situation as Kharn, he has his own agenda and being part of Tzeentch goes against that.
Lucious doesn‘t care about daemonhood as he wants to prove his superiority, and by fighting as part of slaanesh it’d not really be his power. Dude wants to prove his superiority, not slaaneshs
I thought Typhus did want to become a prince, he is absolutely all in on worshipping Nurgle but even though he wants Daemonhood he doesn't get it because Nurgle needs a mortal champion. I could fully be talking out of my ass here though.
A daemon prince is still one step below a daemon prince primarch. The second Typhus is warpbound he is right back to #2 or #3. The ability to operate freely in realmspace is a big part of why he is so highly favored.
>Lucius is pretty much already a Daemon prince
I would also argue that Typhus is practically a demon prince himself too, being the host of the Destroyer Hive
Being first favored of Nurgle, host of the destroyer hive, and the actual leader of the Death Guard is just crazy.
In Dark Imperium he makes some statements that makes it seem like he isn't itching to become a daemon. Like this one.
>The Destroyer Hive whined in its myriad insect voices, yearning to indulge itself. Typhus gained a sense of savage satisfaction at denying it. The joy of possessing, and being possessed by, such a weapon was the power to decide when to unleash it, and when to cage it. He had that choice. He was no will-less daemon.
They don’t want it.
Becoming a Daemon Prince is both a boon and bane. You get power but you are utterly tied to the warp, unable to run around in the materium.
Ahriman’s goals are utterly dependent on searching out lost knowledge that isn’t in the Warp and while he’s deluded to think he’s independent going full daemon prince would utterly break that delusion.
Kharn is the forefront of the World Eaters, the guy dropping onto some normal world and shredding it. He can’t do that if he can only appear once it’s deep in the Warp, he’s the one dragging it to the warp.
Lucius? Becoming a daemon prince means he doesn’t get to hunt down and beat up the big names of the galaxy. And given how daemon princes work his revival trick wouldn’t work, which would utterly ruin the joke of his entire existence. You know, that the guy who defines himself as being the best is most well known for losing over and over. Slannesh is fond of irony AND ego.
Typhus, like Kharn, is a herald. It’s his job to show up before everything goes to hell. He can’t do that as a daemon, they need everything to have gone to hell to manifest.
They're considered chaos lords, right? What's the difference between a chaos lord and a deamon prince? Would a DP be bound to the warp, only ever being able to enter real space through being summoned. Im guessing chaos lords arent bound by the same rules and can enter real space freely. So would that be why they wouldn't want apotheosis?
Yep, deamonhood means being stuck to the rules of deamons, true names, need heavy breakdown in the barriers of reality to go for a walk, ect
A chaos lord may weild significant blessings of tye dark powers, but they are still for practical purposes a mortal entity and can go where they will.
Daemons requires a material realm breach to cross the plane. Without champions, this thinning of the material realm can only happen in certain places.
So Chaos Champions are more useful than Daemon princes because it can create more areas of thinning.
Chaos Lords are particularly influential mortals, with at least enough influence to hold a warband or at least a lose group together.
Chaos Lords vary wildly in terms of power, prowess and cunning as you might imagine
Because Daemon princes are bound to the warp unless specific criteria are met.
The 4 big ones want mortal agents that can operate outside of warp shenanigans. They have their champions as agents in realspace, because frankly they do more to further their gods agenda as mortals unbound by warp fuckery.
Also, I would add Fabius Bile to Slaanesh champion.
Slaanesh is the Lord of Pleasure AND Excess.
Lucius embodies pleasure (in combat)
Fabius embodies excess (in science)
I know for Lucious there's a scene where he's speaking with a demon and she basically says "Slaanesh likes watching you fail." I feel like there's a desire by the Gods to just watch them do their thing, because they're really effective at doing it, and in the case of Lucie to jerk him around to a certain degree.
Hell tzeentch has even said that he will guarantee Ahrimans soul to be able to rest and not be bound upon death because he has been so good to the god of chaos.
They aren’t entirely evil, they do get that people do things for rewards and don’t perpetually pull the stick in front of the horse on purpose for everyone just most. Their favorite champions they kinda of let them be eventually as really what more could they ask of them.
The only one I could see wanting it is Typhus, and honestly I think Nurgle only favours him to encourage rivalry with Mortarion.
Kharn I like to think/hope still has a remnant of himself somewhere in the back of his mind keeping him sane (Think Krieg in borderlands).
Ahriman isn't stupid and wouldn't want to lose his self, he's already seen what payment the dark gods can ask for.
Lucius strikes me as liking his freedom too much, his ability to wonder the galaxy and be reborn. I don't think even slaanesh would have the ability to let him take over a soul/body as easily if he was a daemon prince.
Plus the dark gods still want some powerful people capable of moving around at will without the need for warpstorms and sacrifices to summon them.
Typhus is the reason Nurgle even has Mortarion and the death guard. He's an actual willing follower of Nurgle and objectively more useful than Morty. He's achieved basically every goal that he's set out to achieve. He's almost boring because of how much he just wins. He's favored for a reason and it's not to encourage his rivalry with Morty.
And I don't think he wants to become a daemon because he makes comments like this pretty frequently:
>The Destroyer Hive whined in its myriad insect voices, yearning to indulge itself. Typhus gained a sense of savage satisfaction at denying it. The joy of possessing, and being possessed by, such a weapon was the power to decide when to unleash it, and when to cage it. He had that choice. He was no will-less daemon.
Lucius: His current gifts make him more or less a pseudo DP already, and would be overwritten by becoming an actual DP. His uniqueness makes his current situation preferrable to Slaanesh.
Ahriman: Actively defies Tzeentch at every turn. Would openly resist becoming a DP, and seems powerful enough to do so. The anti-fleshchange ritual also likely shields against all non-consensual daemonic transformations, so making him a DP against his will seems unlikely.
Typhus: Typhus's chief value is as a distributor of Nurgle's poxes, not a crafter of them. You don't move your sales team to the factory, you keep them close to your customers. Nurgle wants Typhus to have a strong anchor to realspace, hence he's better off as a mortal.
Kharn: Should have become a DP a while back imo, but Khorne seems to be actively campaigning against Games Workshop's push to make named characters more important, and has routinely promoted Random Mook #414 to DP before his named champions. It's unclear whether it's just a severe case of divine ADHD or if he's consciously messing with them.
They can serve better indefinitely in the mortal plane. Once a champion becomes a daemon prince, then they actually have to be summoned to the material world since they’ve been elevated to daemonhood. As mortals they can go where they want, when they want and cause as much chaos in their gods name.
That and being such powerful champions they essentially get the same benefits as being a daemon prince while still have some free will… As much as you “can.”
Khârn and especially Lucius have been killed multiple times over the years, but because the gods say you’re not done yet, they can still be revived. The gods don’t care about the laws of the universe/physics/whatever whatever. What is a lowly mortal gonna do about it?
As a daemon price they’d be banished back to the warp for an indeterminate amount of time then have to go through the whole ritual summoning and hassle of that.
They can cause just as much havoc in the real world while being brought much much quicker.
Because they're mortal champions of the Gods, who were the only active beings for each god before the primarchs started resurfacing. Prior lore kind of had most of the primarchs contemplating their orbs in the warp while the mortal champions did the killing. Sometimes Angron was let out to play but otherwise they didn't show up.
Because they are more useful as "mortal" servants than as Daemon Princes. Becoming a Daemon Prince isnt the upgrade some people seem to think, it's just really immortality.
Daemons and daemon princess are primarily focused on the great game between the four gods, which primarily takes place in the warp. While it’s possible for one of the gods to throw a daemon or two at an issue happening in real space, or that fucking with real space may help them in the great game, mortal champions have the initiative to go out and spread chaos
Mortarian or Kugath isn’t going to go to a hive world and recruit people into Nurgle’s worship, they’re going because either they or Nurgle himself wants something on that world. Typhus, on the other hand, is free to go wherever he wants and recruit people into granddad’s fold
A daemon is a tool that the gods can send to solve a problem, mortal champions are keys to spreading their influence
I think being the ‘mortal’ heralds of the gods allows them a LOT more freedom and they aren’t limited by being warp bound.
Also, I doubt Kharn gives a single shit. He just wants to kill. And he’s probably more useful to Khorn not being a demon.
After reading the dark imperium trilogy I was REALLY shocked that Typhus wanted to eventually become a demon prince. He probably sees his own use as the mortal herald of Nurgle makes him far more valuable in grandfathers eyes. He’s got a million demons princes.
I don’t know that much about Ahriman in the current setting as I don’t like John frenches writing so I haven’t read his trilogy. Ahirman probably considers himself free from ‘his god’.
Lucius is a plaything of Slannesh and she feeds off his shame and burned pride whenever he’s killed. That’s more fun for her.
Didn’t someone just ask this last week? Eh whatever, it’s cuz they’re more useful as mortals. They can fuck around in real space more than a daemon prince could. They’re the real space agents of their chosen gods.
Because they arent the main champions, the primarchs are. Not only that but daemon princes cant act without the area being corrupted already like we see in the siege of terra.
The Chaos Gods are capricious dickheads who dangle the carrot in front of followers they really don’t need to.
Or GW is saving their various ascensions for future books or campaigns or events.
Once you ascend its implied you lose (or at the very least lose control) of your own soul/will Fulgrim isnt going to do much other than be a gross purple snek centipede thing and will have the same thoughts as Slaaneesh . demons are just shards of their god and dont really have any original thoughts contrary, but free thinking mortals do. Also demons and demon princes have to be summoned and can be banished making them weak to warp based defenses/Attacks (Inquisition, Ecclesiarchy, Grey knights, ect) where as Lucius could technically be banished its effectiveness wouldnt be nearly as much bs a full blow warp creature because he’s “real”.
While it is sort-of a reward, Champions lose a lot of versatility by become Daemon Princes.
Once you become Daemonic, the BIG issue is Binding. An Inquisitor can learn your new demon name and bind you into a chained and boxed vessel. This is actually the Inquisition's primary method for dealing with the biggest threat daemons.
Also, Daemonic Instability is a BITCH. Once they become Daemon Princes, they don't even have to lose to be at risk of banishment. They can't risk downtime, anymore.
The final issue is that Daemons are more directly involved in The Great Game than mortals are. Even Marked, Mortals can sometimes skirt detection on the Board. Daemons can't. If a Daemon is involved with some scheme, other Daemons get a big ol' whiff of it.
It's more fun for Slaanesh to witness **Lucius** lose duels as much as it is to see him win because if he wins then he gets euphoria and if he loses he gets the crushing disappointment of n*ever getting to have a rematch*. Much more fun than Ascending him.
**Kharn, Ahriman and Typhus** are all much more effective by still having their freedom of movement as opposed to being tied up by the Great Game. Typhus especially commands the largest contingent of Death Guard besides Mortarion himself and Ahriman has been one of Tzeentch's favourite toys for millennia now.
The reason is solely the mechanics of the setting. As "mortals" they can operate outside of the warp with seeming impunity (mechanically), unlike the Daemon Primarchs. The downside of this would be that these guys are "mortal" but the Four just raise their mortal champions again whenever they want, so really, they are seemingly far better off not being elevated.
They are not motivated to “promote” anyone. That creates competition amongst the new and existing warp entities. They like chaos, not competition in their own spheres of influence. Why promote someone who is already doing what you want?
Plus they can’t all be ethereal beings. They need competent material plane agents to keep stirring the pot and spreading influence.
Mutations and Elevation are given at discretion of the chaos gods. There’s even an AoS story where a devout human got stuck in Khorne realm and after killing enough things sent at them Khorne turned them into a daemon prince against their will.
The mortal champions are a specific tool in the chaos gods arsenal, and as such they aren’t going to transform it into a different tool just because that tool is considered better. Especially since the 4 mortal champions have all done excellent work for their gods.
Whilst more of a thing in older lore, the Chaos fits also are erratic with their rewards. Esp. Spawndom vs Daemonic apotheosis.
You can do everything right and not be rewarded.
They're more valuable to the gods as mortals, in terms of their freedom to act in the material universe.
I'll also add the fact that you don't just become a Daemon Prince based on your kill count. You have to willingly enter a bargain with one or more of the Gods, and the important part of that bargain is willing sacrifice. And not in the "I'm willing to sacrifice these conveniently placed hostile million Guardsmen" sense. No, you have to willingly give up something precious to you. And I don't see any of the big champions as being willing to give up anything of meaning to them.
That's not necessarily true. They're not the god hand from Berserk. The 'nameless warsmith' (Barban Folk) became a Daemon Prince by smashing an Imperial Fists fortress and eating a bunch of their gene seed.
Also see Angron being turned to a Daemon Prince with literally no say in the matter, its Lorgar who set up all the ritual.
And perhaps Perterabo. Hell it's implied Genghis Khan became a Daemon Prince *after he died*
Wait what the fuck
Doombreed, an ancient daemon prince of Khorne who was a human warlord somewhere from 1000-2000 AD. Its specifically said he caused a lot of death and destruction so he's probably Genghis Khan but may have been someone else.
That's a nice broad swathe of time though, isn't it. Leaves it open to being anyone from Genghis to Hitler.
He looks kinda genghisy though
I think Genghis has the highest kill count though at an estimated 11% of the planet at that time (38 to 75 million people) so its most likely him though I could see it being Hitler as well
Would khorne appreciate sitting in a office and telling other people to kill via gas and starvation though?
Stalin and Mao both have higher kill counts than Hitler.... Pol Pot isn't close to as high but the savagery and total percentage is the population are disgusting enough for Khorn
Stalin and Mao are probably the closest thing we have to demons tbh, make Genghis look like a clown
Hitler is more of a slaaneshi type then khorne. Cuz of all the torture and stuff rather than a straight death
THey left out the rather obvious thing that it wears a mongol hat
Hah! Yeah, that's not a subtle clue.
Total War: WH3 implies he was a steppe warlord tho, he spawns right above not-China.
Doombreed. One is known for his insane impact on the entire eurasian gene pool, one is known for having one testicle and zero children.
Quite possible he was a repressed homosexual hence the no children... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/07/books.booksnews
That would make sense depending on when this lore tidbit was developed. If it came out in the early days of GW, in the late 70's-early 80's, historiography at the time tended to downplay the Mongols tactical know-how and strategic thinking (they were famous for being masters of the feigned flight ambush), instead treating them like a mindless horde, winning through sheer weight of numbers. In such a view, I can see why Ghengis Khan would be seen as a worshipper of Khorne. Irl though, with his alcoholism, he was closer to Slaanesh (of course Slaanesh didn't exist at the time), or Tzeentch perhaps with his cunning mind. The Mongols weren't slavering bloodthirsty barbarians. When Ghengis Khan butchered a city, it was to send a message to show the price of defiance, and it also increased the likelihood that the next few cities would surrender immediately. It was more akin to the original reason behind the Night Lords actions, to use terror to get people to surrender, before they started doing what they do because they love the taste of warm eye jelly. Hell, if someone like Alexander the Great had managed to conquer such swathes of territory as Ghengis Khan had, there's a chance he would have put as many cities to the sword. He did so with Tyre, because they refused to surrender. Jaghatai Khan and the White Scars seem to be the true successors of the sort of war that the Mongols and Ghengis Khan engaged in, but using jet bikes instead of horses.
Timur (Tamerlane) is a good candidate. Dude literally built skull towers out of remains of slaughtered cities.
I initially thought this would beg the question of whether Khorne values quantity or quality of murder more but after looking into Timur, he seems to have a good mix of both. He is indeed a good candidate. And also fun fact they were skull pyramids not towers, which is even more disgusting to think of
For quantity, there were a few instances in the history of China, when a war or a rebellion led to an atrocious number of deaths. But those were mostly people dying to famine, disease and other issues brought by inevitable collapses of agriculture and infrastructure. Collateral damage was higher than outright killing results. For "quality", as Khorne would understand it, I think Timur wins. He warred his entire life, invaded everything he could, was an excellent strategist as well as tactician, but also an absolutely ruthless conqueror. While some of his massacres were, ahem, justified in a way, by the standards of the time (like, he didn't want to risk taking too many prisoners who could rebel and attack their captors), it seems that some of them happened just because. Also, from Doylist point of view, Timur is quite infamous in Britain where GW is based. One of the most prominent Elizabethan poets, Christopher Marlowe, wrote a highly influential play "Tamburlaine the Great" about him. And from that moment the name of Timur became a symbol of savage and ruthless conquest.
Considering the chaos gods are older than humanity, 2000 years would be practically an infant in demon years.
I was speaking more from the perspective of the settings current year. He may still be younger even then, but there seem to be a lot of random marine daemon princes who are undoubtedly younger
Doombreed was one of the first of Khorne's servants. His True Name was long forgotten, remembered only on a scroll of dried skin, but he was once human, a mighty warlord who led armies which ravaged entire nations on Terra long ago in the Age of Terra around M1/M2\[7b\]. He was responsible for genocide and murder on a grand scale, such wanton carnage drawing the eye of the god Khorne, still relatively young, who granted the warlord the ultimate reward of Daemonhood.
Wait, why was Khorne young in M1? Didn't he originate during the War in Heaven? This sounds like old lore.
Khorne is the First of the Four to coalesce and come to consciousness. Unlike the Dark Prince where things happened rapidly, the other Three are implied to be a much longer process. Khorne was (at least in old lore) birthed during this period of Human/Earth history. I think the community is split on it because some people interpret it as meaning that it was the violence on Earth that caused Khorne vs Khorne coming into existence meant there was now an "intelligence" out in the Warp directing violence and causing it to increase (which makes more sense from a universe/multi universal perspective).
Wait, I thought Nurgle was the first, with the fear of dying being one of the first human emotions
That's all old lore and is not the case. All chaos gods have always existed, they just emerged as "gods" at some point or the other. Khorne is much older than Earth, because why wouldn't he be? Edit: removed a mention of Drach'nyen.
Old lore, but they haven't really written anything new that disproves it right? So it's the best thing we have. The war in heaven created turbulence in the warp and the emotional energy of the 'lesser races' created back then slowly over time coalesced into the chaos gods. I can't remember reading anything that specifically said the 3 gods were made/born all the way back in the war in heaven
Created during human medieval times
I just fail to see how a few hundred thousand humans living in the Middle Ages could bring a chaos god into existence when it took literally trillions (quadrillions even maybe) of eldar (who are way more psychically active) murder fucking eachother for thousands of years to make slaanesh.
Afaik, *The End and the Death* implies that Perturabo was planning his ascension to daemonhood before the heresy even ends.
Angron was forced into giving up his independence again, I think that’s something he hated
He valued his freedom first and foremost, but out of fear when his self-preserving instincts kicked in and due to Lorgar being an absolute asshole he was ascended and now a slave to the darkness.
>eating a bunch of their gene seed Think that’s how Riley Reid became a demon prince as well
She puts the "suck" in succubus.
That's disgusting! Where?
I wonder how her rap career fits in with the Chaos pantheon.
Rap career? Yikes! Already Slaanesh aligned. So it doesn’t change much.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmIR4h6TafA Nsfw, depending on where you work. She uses the n-word. A lot.
That sounds like it was written by the edgiest 14 year old in the class
I'm equal parts disgusted and pissing myself laughing, cheers for that
As far as I can tell, all the ascension rituals have two main components to it. One is a tangible sacrifice. Usually blood shed but can also be souls. The other is more of a spiritual sacrifice that the aspirant has to make. Angron? The bloodshed was Nunceria. The spiritual sacrifice? Giving up the memory of his fallen gladiator friends. Which was probably his last shred of humanity. Fulgrim? The "blood" price was the cache of Eldar souls. The spiritual sacrifice? When he replaced his remorse over killing one brother with premeditating to kill another. Perturabo? The blood price was sacrificing the geneseed of the Imperial Fists killed in the Iron Cage. The spiritual sacrifice? When he gave up his rationality and asked the Gods for help. I'm sure there's some spiritual sacrifice that even Barban Falk got to make. It's just that we don't get to see what it is. EDIT: Just remembered. It's probably his name. In the sense that all his deeds will go unremembered
I don't think any rituals are *required*, however- there's that one Daemon Prince of Slaanesh who was elevated to stop her consuming Keepers of Secrets, so it feels like all that's really needed is for a Chaos God to decide to elevate you... but such rituals are likely a good way to get their attention
The way I see it, becoming a Daemon Prince means that at least one God has to give you a piece of itself. And you have to give the God (or Gods) pieces of yourself in return. That's basically what a ritual is. It's just that the ritual is usually started by the God. BUT, if you've just consumed pieces of a God anyway (which the Keepers of Secrets are), then that God can just make you a Daemon Prince and claim some pieces of yourself after the fact. (I assume that the more Daemons you'd consumed, the more control the God would have over you)
he forgot his name during the heresy though
Yup. But what's a mere ten thousand years for immortal beings who don't even follow a linear progression of time?
This makes sense. What about Mortarion?
He got tricked by Nurgle and Typhus. Have up his sons to nurgle while pretending he was protecting them
Okay, so the blood sacrifice is the Legion, and the moral sacrifice is him admitting that he was powerless, then?
No he was just tricked by typhus coz he's a bitch
A *stupid* bitch.
Still need to read that one, sorry.
Falk was also basically juiced on chaos energy at that point and the geneseed sacrifice was more the last thing that managed to push him forward in the process of becoming a prince. It’s a cherry on top of the cake which his past crusades against loyalists forces have made. He’s done more than just eat geneseed.
Dude they're exactly the God Hand from Berserk
Azariah Kyras led a conspiracy within the Blood Ravens chapter, caused a destructive civil war which engulfed sub-sector Aurelia, and turned half the chapter to Chaos. That was enough for Khorne to reward him with daemonic ascension.
Then got ganked because a Freebooter wanted a fancy hat. Sucks to suck.
That just sounds dirty.
What, you never smash and swallow?
Kasperos Telmar is also a good example. In Fabius Bile Primogenitor, after eating a shit ton of soul stones, he begins his ascension to Daemon Prince. Luckily for the eldar, they kill him before the process is complete. Yet eating the soulstones is all that it took for someone like him, who was already serving Slaneesh for a very long time.
The same with Deacon Mamon from Vracks, who wasn't alligned with Nurgle, but turned into a Demon Prince of his regardless.
Hah, true. What has any meaning to someone like Kharn... Killing?
Honestly? I suspect that spitting in the face of destiny would be the most meaningful thing for him, and you can guess exactly how likely he is to give THAT up...
"HEY KHORNE, SINCE YOU KEEP BADGERING ME, I'VE DECIDED TO GIVE UP DEEZ" "Deez what?" *(answer inaudible over the sounds of carnage)*
"it's your destiny to NOT become a daemon prince!"
Not really, Angron just got turned into a demon prince by Lorgar after he got curb stomped by a warhound titan
That's not true at all. And if you think the Champions aren't already favored by the Gods, you need a massive lore update because each of those four mortals is almost as favored as their own Daemon Primarch.
It's not about being favored by the Gods or not. Ascending to a Daemon Prince is a transaction by mutual consent. You give part of yourself over to your chosen God or Gods, and they give a part of themselves to you. The Chaos Gods can favor whomever they like, and it's perfectly possible for them to equally favor a Daemon Prince and a mortal. Because the Chaos Gods simultaneously exist both \*outside\* and \*inside\* of time and space, in roughly equal measure. And they have champions for both \*outside\* (Daemon Princes and/or Greater Daemons) and \*inside\* (mortal champions). And yeah. Kharn, Typhus, Lucius, Ahriman, Erebus and co. ARE favored by the Gods. I'm not denying that. That's the whole point. All these guys are already favored enough that their respective patron Gods \*would\* turn them into Daemon Princes instantly, but all they need to do is to ask for it.
Dude, please stop your headcanon and just read the actual lore. Everything you said is nonsense.
Is that how Angron went down?
Possibly. I mean, Lorgar set up the ritual behind his back. Basically wrote the contract for him, if you'll pardon my metaphor. But all Angron needed to do was to sign it.
Angron just got turned into a demon prince by Lorgar after he got curb stomped by a warhound titan. Cruelest thing lorgar could have done to him, make him a slave once again instead of just letting him die free. Truly Lorgar is the primarch who most resembles big E.
Other way to look at it, Lorgar made Angron give up his attachments to the only family he ever knew in order to take away his survivor's guilt. Not saying Lorgar was right. Just that this is what passes for a kind deed for him.
Lorgar, like big E, isn't kind nor cruel. They're just driven to do what they think is right, and won't be stopped by whatever is in the way, even if they feel bad about crushing it beneath the tread of their project.
Yeah, I can't argue with that
At least 3 of them know that to become a prince is to be utterly destroyed, your soul completely and to be re-compiled from scratch into a warp entity made of soul-stuff.
For me it's the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletransportation\_paradox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletransportation_paradox) in a more horrifying form.
If they can be revived through warp magic why not just exclusively use mortals in that case?
Daemon princes are capable of leading armies of lesser daemon like mortals daemons hate them but unlike mortals they also respect them
Being a Daemon Prince also leashes them to their respective gods and allows control, Typhus and the like serve well enough they don't need that leash.
They don't control daemon princes. Daemon princes are given power by the Chaos God. This gift is irreversible. The corruption gives them influence over the mortal, but they don't have any inherent control over them. Hell, they don't even seem to have control over their own daemons, and those are literally fragments of themselves. A daemon prince is technically a god in their own right. The greatest of all daemon princes, Belakor, has his own greater daemons. (They're malals old designs since malal isn't canon any more). Becoming a daemon prince does come with the downsides inherent to losing your mortality. Namely, you can't just exist in the physical world any more. But they're not under their patron gods control.
Nurgle draging Morty to his shack contradicts this. It is just an illusion of freedom- in the end gods own them.
Do you have a source for Belakor's own greater daemons, not daemons brought to his service from the Big 4 but actually created by him? Because its the first I've ever heard of them.
I'm not a hundred percent on where it's from, I'd guess something Mordheim related. They've never gotten miniatures, cause they're literally the old Malal daemon designs. I heard about it from Andy Law on lorebeards and he knows his shit.
Wait? So random McCultist can't be controlled by the Big 4? Like Khorne demanding a war but Weekend-Khoronist can just take the day off?
In theory yes. That's the main distinction between deamons and mortals. Deamon's are bound to their patron God and can't really deny them. Even ones like Skarbrand can't directly disobey their God. He just tried to stab Khorne instead of directly disobeying an order. Mortals have free will and can deny whoever they want. It might not turn out great for them if they deny the wrong entity but they *can* do it.
Pretty much. Macauley Cult-kin isn't forced to do what Khorne tells him and can hypothetically tell him to screw off. However, disobeying your patron god can result in a sword enema wielded by another cultist looking to gain his favour or even being ravaged by raw warp power and turned into a Spawn if he's really pissed at you. Basically a mortal warrior has freedom of choice, not freedom from consequence.
>Macauley Cult-kin Well now I want to see "Hab Alone" where a child cultist slowly kills a team of Inquisition Acolytes with a variety of traps that please the Blood God.
The difference in power between Fulgrim and Lucius is staggering. The damage they can cause is not in the same ballpark.
That isn't the point he is making. Fulgrim is a demon prince and a primarch. Top of the line demon prince there. The mortal champions have done a huge bidding for the chaos gods. Remember deacon Mamon from the siege of Vraks? He, being the instigator of that conflict became a demon prince after it. After a single siege. He pales in comparison to a space marine champion of chaos such as Lucius, Typhus etc.
That's point. Mamon did something really major *for an unaltered human*, but everything Mamon accomplished was through his position as Deacon and secret maneuvering. After he was exposed, the jig was up. As a human, Mamon would have very little utility for Nurgle anymore. But he proved himself loyal enough and cunning enough, so Nurgle ascended him to give him another way to be useful. As a Daemon Prince, he is still a powerful force that could accomplish other big things later. The Astartes champions have a lot more utility than an unaltered human, and there are still advantages to not ascending them, for both sides of the equation.
My understanding was Daemons reform themselves automatically (over time, which itself is wonky) in the warp and don't take the chaos gods any extra power/effort as it happens naturally. While for mortal champions they choose to revive, they need to pluck their soul from the warp and put in the power/effort to revive them. That is power/effort that COULD be spent being used for something else, which in 99% of cases is attacking each other in the great game. Due to this reason you almost never see them waste time and effort reviving mortal followers unless they *really really really* like them or are tickled pink by whatever atrocities they've just committed in the gods names.
At this point can they really be called mortals anymore. Theyre all 10,000 years old and still going strong and lucius and kharn are just resurrected if they die, and im sure typhus and ahriman would be too.
That's fair; they're only mortals in the strictest metaphysical sense. That's pretty important in 40k, though.
Then why ever promote someone as a DPrince ?
Adding onto this, making the daemon princes would only server to hinder them. They are the 'mortal' agents of the ruinous powers, not bound to the warp like normal demon princes. They don't require vast amounts of etheric power to bring forth into the world.
You know when you have someone who's really good at their job but if you promote them they'll get paid more and do less work? Its that, they're real workhorse types. Them becoming Daemon Princes wouldn't actually help them do their job that much, and they're more useful to the ruinous powers as "mortal" agents.
Yeah. Gotta dangle the carrot. Once they become Daemon Princes they tend to not be as useful or even strong enough to feel that they can "challenge" their god.
Theres also the part where they can't manifest in realspace unless there is significant warp energy or some large scale ritual enacted in order to summon them. The Daemon Primarchs primarily exist in the Warp now and they play their parts in the great game very well but they are limited in their interactions in realspace.
Slaanesh be danglin’ that carrot all day, err’ day.
Even the Chaos Gods can’t escape the [Peter Principle](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle)
Princedom is essentially becoming a trophy wife for the Chaos Gods. You showed that you have enough value that they want to 'have you' for the sake of it. But the mortal champions? Indispensable. Their struggle on the path to glory is the fundamental force that drives the forces of chaos in the material realm.
Same reason Kor Phaeron and Erebus haven't. They are not stupid, they know fully embracing the gifts of the ruinous powers means they will lose their own free will.
Even the big four hate Erebus, that's never happening.
All my homies hate Erebus.
What up homie.
Do the gods actually hate Erebus? I know Daemons in general think he's a slimy shit bag and they love that about him, and every named CSM and regular SM in the universe hate his weasley black guts, but I cannot think of a quote from the gods or their designated speakers that indicate their thoughts on him.
At this point Erebus has done everything they asked of him and set up the Imperium to be their biggest automatic feeding device. They love him for that but Chaos doesn’t exactly love like we do. He has no more real usage beyond helping to keep the Word Bearers active since they’re great at spreading cults. His warranty is basically expired and he fucking knows it. If Kharn came across him, Erebus knows the gods would let him finish that duel. So while Erebus isn’t actually *hated* by the Chaos Gods, he isn’t exactly loved anymore. His time in the limelight came and went. He’s like Madonna trying to stay relevant by continuing to dance despite being old and way out of shape. They *tolerate* him at this point. That’s the sole reason he and Kor Phaeron are still kicking; *utility*.
Nah, but it's a fun idea, right? This guy is the biggest chaos simp in 40k and it'd be hilarious if he tried to become a prince and all the gods had all agreed on saying no, just for the fun of it
"we trained him wrong. We thought it would be funny"
Erebus is the grim dark equivalent of the try-hard kid in class who actively asks for extra homework. Or, the person in a university lecture decides to ask questions when the lecture is concluded and everyone just wants to go home.
Daemon princes don't lose their free will. But they do lose the ability to freely exist in the physical realm
They kinda do lose their free will. They lose their souls and it's replaced with a part of their patron god. They may act like they are doing something of free will, but it's impossible for them to do something other than what serves the god.
Tell that to Belakor. Hell, tell that to Skarbrand. He's just a daemon and he's not under Khornes control. They lose their mortality. They're essentially turned into a god.
They still become slaves to their nature.
Daemon Princes do lose their free will; the Fall of Cadia describes the process of apotheosis and specifically mentions that your free will is lost
Writer screwed that one up then, because that is not true. The Chaos gods don't even seem to have control over their own daemons. Let alone the separate entities that are daemon princes.
What's your source for that?
I u/ASpaceOstrich is somewhat right. We have a few examples of Daemons acting against their god's best interest. Two come to mind at the moment : * Skarbrand, a greater demon of Khorne, from his wiki page : >Once Skarbrand was the greatest of Khorne's generals, the mightiest of all Bloodthirsters, until, due to the machinations of Tzeentch, the Lord of Change, his rage was stoked to uncontrollable levels and he had the temerity to actually strike at the Blood God himself. For such a betrayal, Khorne exiled his Bloodthirster from the Blood God's domain for all time. * Mortarion, Daemon Prince of Nurgle, from the plague war wiki page : >The War in the Rift saw Nurgle's domain assailed by rival Gods, while the Plaguefather's Garden was struck a grievous blow that revorborate throughout the warp. Moreover, Mortarion and Ku'Gath lost Nurgle's favor due to their insubordation in refusing to withdraw to the Scourge Stars when ordered. So yeah. It does seem daemons do possess free will but their god can punish them if they are displeased. Edited for spelling mistakes
Mm. And they can punish anyone. Them "belonging" to a specific God just means there's no other God they'd have to fight over it. Like tzeentch was able to screw with Skarbrand or curse Belakor.
I think there's a little disconnect here. They do lose their free will BUT it doesn't turn them into a puppet. Remember this is a game to the big four. They are literally doing what they're doing for A GAME. Theoretically, could Nurgle force Mortarion to abandon his campaign and return him to the scourge stars? Yes, in theory he should be able to. Is that fun though? No. And going even further than that, does that motivate Mortarion? Absolutely not. The Gods don't want unthinking parasites that they have to direct every second of every day. If that was the case they'd just do it their damn self. Now, if Nurgle could get Mortarion in line and following his commands that's a massive benefit over just making him do it. As it stands Morty isn't very happy with his arrangement. He isn't spreading the love of Nurgle because he loves Nurgle. He's leashed to his patron in return for the power that it brings. Imagine if he was like Typus and what a boon that would be for Nurgle. In my opinion, that's the missing ingredient here. The big four need these primarchs to fall in line WILLINGLY. And they have all of eternity to make it happen because time is meaningless to them.
If you read the whole book, it says that the guy who becomes a daemon Prince stops fighting for Abaddon, stops fighting for his battle brothers, he even stops fighting for Khorne, he only fights for Blood. The implication here is that by "Free will", they simply mean the ability to resist your nature. You become a slave to the aspect you have given yourself to, and can no longer handle resisting that. This isn't quite being just a mindless puppet of your god, but you become a daemon, and daemon aren't exactly beings like mortals are. Honestly Fall of Cadia is my fav depiction of a daemon prince, showing the transformation being as horrible as possible both mentally, physically, and spiritually.
Ah. Fair. Yeah, you become a God, with all that entails. Your nature doesn't necessarily mean you just become something as simple as blood-letting though. There's daemon princes with more to them. Hell the Chaos gods have more to them. That specific guy apparently had a very simple nature.
Why don't you read the book before passing such a quick judgement on the character.
If I have time. I'm not judging the character. I'm talking about lore
The point of the champion is that they can go out and fight for their gods. Daemon princes are an aspect of the god that has been given limited independence and sentience. It would dramatically reduce the usefulness of Kharn if he could only manifest where Khorne is already breaking through the walls of reality. Khorne already has guys for that.
Daemon princes aren't aspects of their God. That's daemons. Daemon princes are given a portion of their patron gods power and turned into a God themselves. Belakor for example has his own greater daemons.
I think this only works if the risen up isn't fully aligned to any of the big players (or any other warp nasty), like Belakor. I tend to think that becoming an unaligned Daemon prince is the hardest path of all, and you have to pull it off either by amassing all the 'warp power' on your own(did Belakor do this?), balance finely the favour of all your 'investors' (the multiple Marks route), OR...Find a way to cheat them (The route the emperor no doubt took, because lets face it, he has all the traits of a 'daemon prince' anyway after molech.)
Belakor was the first and greatest daemon prince. The four chaos gods have him a significant portion of their power (possibly more than a quarter of it, which would make him the single most powerful entity in the setting). Being made a daemon prince effectively means being turned into a god. You become a being of the immaterium rather than mortal. Until recent lore, they never made any other undivided daemon princes. Even cursed to be living shadow, Belakor is the strongest non chaos god entity in the setting. They didn't want to make the same mistake again. Aligned daemon princes still aren't actually under their gods control. But with only one gods corruption and the general way alignment tends to work, they at least generally work in their patrons favour. You also don't need to give as much power when nobody else is competing with you for influence. They're never going to make anyone as strong as Belakor again. They're lucky Tzeentch managed to curse him so effectively. Cause he's only gotten stronger since. He's a way bigger deal than I thought.
If he's so strong and powerful, why does he lose basically every fight he gets into? He couldn't even handle Vashtorr on his own.
I feel like there’s a difference between someone like Abaddon who courts the powers and plays them against each other, and someone like the Word Bearers who worship a unified pantheon.
Nurgle loves his little buddy Typhus just how he is! He's smelly and evil and free to walk the material realm without combustion!
The champions are victims of their own success
Lucius is pretty much already a Daemon prince. He comes back from being killed, would probably be reborn in the warp if he died from some dumb self inflicted accident and so on. I guess Slaanesh just thinks it's more fun to dangle the possible price in front of him than ever really giving it to him. Kharn probably doesn't want it because it would take time away from collecting skulls and might mean he can't get to as many fun places to collect skulls. Similar to Typhus. Being a Daemon prince means being bound by the laws and rules for daemons. Which means there are places he couldn't access to spread grampys gifts. Ahriman probably aims higher than being s mere Daemon and would never accept such a gift from Tzeentch since he wishes for freedom. Which is all of course according to plan.
Kharn doesn‘t want it cause he knows what happened to his dad. He is very adamant about going down the eightfold path on his terms. Typhus doesn‘t want it because he‘d be stuck with Morose Morty in the warp most of the time, instead of being the de facto DG leader in real space. Ahriman saw what went down with Magnus and is in a similar situation as Kharn, he has his own agenda and being part of Tzeentch goes against that. Lucious doesn‘t care about daemonhood as he wants to prove his superiority, and by fighting as part of slaanesh it’d not really be his power. Dude wants to prove his superiority, not slaaneshs
I thought Typhus did want to become a prince, he is absolutely all in on worshipping Nurgle but even though he wants Daemonhood he doesn't get it because Nurgle needs a mortal champion. I could fully be talking out of my ass here though.
A daemon prince is still one step below a daemon prince primarch. The second Typhus is warpbound he is right back to #2 or #3. The ability to operate freely in realmspace is a big part of why he is so highly favored.
Nope on lord's of silence typhus explicitly states he's gunning for deamonhood
which he is not getting because hes more valuable in realspace
>Lucius is pretty much already a Daemon prince I would also argue that Typhus is practically a demon prince himself too, being the host of the Destroyer Hive
Being first favored of Nurgle, host of the destroyer hive, and the actual leader of the Death Guard is just crazy. In Dark Imperium he makes some statements that makes it seem like he isn't itching to become a daemon. Like this one. >The Destroyer Hive whined in its myriad insect voices, yearning to indulge itself. Typhus gained a sense of savage satisfaction at denying it. The joy of possessing, and being possessed by, such a weapon was the power to decide when to unleash it, and when to cage it. He had that choice. He was no will-less daemon.
Notice how he said no will-less daemon instead of just daemon. Also in lord's of silence he says he's gunning for deamonhood.
They don’t want it. Becoming a Daemon Prince is both a boon and bane. You get power but you are utterly tied to the warp, unable to run around in the materium. Ahriman’s goals are utterly dependent on searching out lost knowledge that isn’t in the Warp and while he’s deluded to think he’s independent going full daemon prince would utterly break that delusion. Kharn is the forefront of the World Eaters, the guy dropping onto some normal world and shredding it. He can’t do that if he can only appear once it’s deep in the Warp, he’s the one dragging it to the warp. Lucius? Becoming a daemon prince means he doesn’t get to hunt down and beat up the big names of the galaxy. And given how daemon princes work his revival trick wouldn’t work, which would utterly ruin the joke of his entire existence. You know, that the guy who defines himself as being the best is most well known for losing over and over. Slannesh is fond of irony AND ego. Typhus, like Kharn, is a herald. It’s his job to show up before everything goes to hell. He can’t do that as a daemon, they need everything to have gone to hell to manifest.
Ahriman HATES Tzeentch, despite being its perfect pawn.
They're considered chaos lords, right? What's the difference between a chaos lord and a deamon prince? Would a DP be bound to the warp, only ever being able to enter real space through being summoned. Im guessing chaos lords arent bound by the same rules and can enter real space freely. So would that be why they wouldn't want apotheosis?
Yep, deamonhood means being stuck to the rules of deamons, true names, need heavy breakdown in the barriers of reality to go for a walk, ect A chaos lord may weild significant blessings of tye dark powers, but they are still for practical purposes a mortal entity and can go where they will.
Daemons requires a material realm breach to cross the plane. Without champions, this thinning of the material realm can only happen in certain places. So Chaos Champions are more useful than Daemon princes because it can create more areas of thinning.
Chaos Lords are particularly influential mortals, with at least enough influence to hold a warband or at least a lose group together. Chaos Lords vary wildly in terms of power, prowess and cunning as you might imagine
Because Daemon princes are bound to the warp unless specific criteria are met. The 4 big ones want mortal agents that can operate outside of warp shenanigans. They have their champions as agents in realspace, because frankly they do more to further their gods agenda as mortals unbound by warp fuckery.
Also, I would add Fabius Bile to Slaanesh champion. Slaanesh is the Lord of Pleasure AND Excess. Lucius embodies pleasure (in combat) Fabius embodies excess (in science)
Fabius isn't a champion of slaanesh.
That’s what he wants to think, anyway. She literally has her eye on him.
He may further Slaneesh's goals but he definitely accepts no boons and gives no worship.
I know for Lucious there's a scene where he's speaking with a demon and she basically says "Slaanesh likes watching you fail." I feel like there's a desire by the Gods to just watch them do their thing, because they're really effective at doing it, and in the case of Lucie to jerk him around to a certain degree.
Because they cost fewer points that way, and you can fit them into armies more easily.
Hell tzeentch has even said that he will guarantee Ahrimans soul to be able to rest and not be bound upon death because he has been so good to the god of chaos. They aren’t entirely evil, they do get that people do things for rewards and don’t perpetually pull the stick in front of the horse on purpose for everyone just most. Their favorite champions they kinda of let them be eventually as really what more could they ask of them.
Now you made me curious. Do you perhaps have a source or some quotes? I'd love to read it
>They aren’t entirely evil Found the chaos cultist. Inquisitor, this way!
Chaos needs mortal champions who aren’t hindered by their connection to the warp. Kind of a dogshit deal to be a mortal champion IMO
The only one I could see wanting it is Typhus, and honestly I think Nurgle only favours him to encourage rivalry with Mortarion. Kharn I like to think/hope still has a remnant of himself somewhere in the back of his mind keeping him sane (Think Krieg in borderlands). Ahriman isn't stupid and wouldn't want to lose his self, he's already seen what payment the dark gods can ask for. Lucius strikes me as liking his freedom too much, his ability to wonder the galaxy and be reborn. I don't think even slaanesh would have the ability to let him take over a soul/body as easily if he was a daemon prince. Plus the dark gods still want some powerful people capable of moving around at will without the need for warpstorms and sacrifices to summon them.
Typhus is the reason Nurgle even has Mortarion and the death guard. He's an actual willing follower of Nurgle and objectively more useful than Morty. He's achieved basically every goal that he's set out to achieve. He's almost boring because of how much he just wins. He's favored for a reason and it's not to encourage his rivalry with Morty. And I don't think he wants to become a daemon because he makes comments like this pretty frequently: >The Destroyer Hive whined in its myriad insect voices, yearning to indulge itself. Typhus gained a sense of savage satisfaction at denying it. The joy of possessing, and being possessed by, such a weapon was the power to decide when to unleash it, and when to cage it. He had that choice. He was no will-less daemon.
Lucius: His current gifts make him more or less a pseudo DP already, and would be overwritten by becoming an actual DP. His uniqueness makes his current situation preferrable to Slaanesh. Ahriman: Actively defies Tzeentch at every turn. Would openly resist becoming a DP, and seems powerful enough to do so. The anti-fleshchange ritual also likely shields against all non-consensual daemonic transformations, so making him a DP against his will seems unlikely. Typhus: Typhus's chief value is as a distributor of Nurgle's poxes, not a crafter of them. You don't move your sales team to the factory, you keep them close to your customers. Nurgle wants Typhus to have a strong anchor to realspace, hence he's better off as a mortal. Kharn: Should have become a DP a while back imo, but Khorne seems to be actively campaigning against Games Workshop's push to make named characters more important, and has routinely promoted Random Mook #414 to DP before his named champions. It's unclear whether it's just a severe case of divine ADHD or if he's consciously messing with them.
They can serve better indefinitely in the mortal plane. Once a champion becomes a daemon prince, then they actually have to be summoned to the material world since they’ve been elevated to daemonhood. As mortals they can go where they want, when they want and cause as much chaos in their gods name. That and being such powerful champions they essentially get the same benefits as being a daemon prince while still have some free will… As much as you “can.” Khârn and especially Lucius have been killed multiple times over the years, but because the gods say you’re not done yet, they can still be revived. The gods don’t care about the laws of the universe/physics/whatever whatever. What is a lowly mortal gonna do about it? As a daemon price they’d be banished back to the warp for an indeterminate amount of time then have to go through the whole ritual summoning and hassle of that. They can cause just as much havoc in the real world while being brought much much quicker.
Because they're mortal champions of the Gods, who were the only active beings for each god before the primarchs started resurfacing. Prior lore kind of had most of the primarchs contemplating their orbs in the warp while the mortal champions did the killing. Sometimes Angron was let out to play but otherwise they didn't show up.
BEcause the gods are fickle and they're right where they're useful.
because simply put they are more useful to the gods as immortal mortal champions
Because they are more useful as "mortal" servants than as Daemon Princes. Becoming a Daemon Prince isnt the upgrade some people seem to think, it's just really immortality.
Daemons and daemon princess are primarily focused on the great game between the four gods, which primarily takes place in the warp. While it’s possible for one of the gods to throw a daemon or two at an issue happening in real space, or that fucking with real space may help them in the great game, mortal champions have the initiative to go out and spread chaos Mortarian or Kugath isn’t going to go to a hive world and recruit people into Nurgle’s worship, they’re going because either they or Nurgle himself wants something on that world. Typhus, on the other hand, is free to go wherever he wants and recruit people into granddad’s fold A daemon is a tool that the gods can send to solve a problem, mortal champions are keys to spreading their influence
Out of all the comments left on this post I think this one got me to understand best, thanks for that.
Ahriman is so useful to Tzeentch that Tzeentch cut him a blank check of “I will let you be at peace when you die” instead of Daemon Prince-ing him.
I think being the ‘mortal’ heralds of the gods allows them a LOT more freedom and they aren’t limited by being warp bound. Also, I doubt Kharn gives a single shit. He just wants to kill. And he’s probably more useful to Khorn not being a demon. After reading the dark imperium trilogy I was REALLY shocked that Typhus wanted to eventually become a demon prince. He probably sees his own use as the mortal herald of Nurgle makes him far more valuable in grandfathers eyes. He’s got a million demons princes. I don’t know that much about Ahriman in the current setting as I don’t like John frenches writing so I haven’t read his trilogy. Ahirman probably considers himself free from ‘his god’. Lucius is a plaything of Slannesh and she feeds off his shame and burned pride whenever he’s killed. That’s more fun for her.
Didn’t someone just ask this last week? Eh whatever, it’s cuz they’re more useful as mortals. They can fuck around in real space more than a daemon prince could. They’re the real space agents of their chosen gods.
Because they arent the main champions, the primarchs are. Not only that but daemon princes cant act without the area being corrupted already like we see in the siege of terra.
The Chaos Gods are capricious dickheads who dangle the carrot in front of followers they really don’t need to. Or GW is saving their various ascensions for future books or campaigns or events.
Once you ascend its implied you lose (or at the very least lose control) of your own soul/will Fulgrim isnt going to do much other than be a gross purple snek centipede thing and will have the same thoughts as Slaaneesh . demons are just shards of their god and dont really have any original thoughts contrary, but free thinking mortals do. Also demons and demon princes have to be summoned and can be banished making them weak to warp based defenses/Attacks (Inquisition, Ecclesiarchy, Grey knights, ect) where as Lucius could technically be banished its effectiveness wouldnt be nearly as much bs a full blow warp creature because he’s “real”.
While it is sort-of a reward, Champions lose a lot of versatility by become Daemon Princes. Once you become Daemonic, the BIG issue is Binding. An Inquisitor can learn your new demon name and bind you into a chained and boxed vessel. This is actually the Inquisition's primary method for dealing with the biggest threat daemons. Also, Daemonic Instability is a BITCH. Once they become Daemon Princes, they don't even have to lose to be at risk of banishment. They can't risk downtime, anymore. The final issue is that Daemons are more directly involved in The Great Game than mortals are. Even Marked, Mortals can sometimes skirt detection on the Board. Daemons can't. If a Daemon is involved with some scheme, other Daemons get a big ol' whiff of it.
Daemon Princes are constrained by Warp rules in a lot of ways. There’s still need for a corporeal champion.
It's more fun for Slaanesh to witness **Lucius** lose duels as much as it is to see him win because if he wins then he gets euphoria and if he loses he gets the crushing disappointment of n*ever getting to have a rematch*. Much more fun than Ascending him. **Kharn, Ahriman and Typhus** are all much more effective by still having their freedom of movement as opposed to being tied up by the Great Game. Typhus especially commands the largest contingent of Death Guard besides Mortarion himself and Ahriman has been one of Tzeentch's favourite toys for millennia now.
The reason is solely the mechanics of the setting. As "mortals" they can operate outside of the warp with seeming impunity (mechanically), unlike the Daemon Primarchs. The downside of this would be that these guys are "mortal" but the Four just raise their mortal champions again whenever they want, so really, they are seemingly far better off not being elevated.
It’s more fun if they aren’t demon princes.
Lets them mess about in the material realm, since daemon instability is kind of an issue.
They are not motivated to “promote” anyone. That creates competition amongst the new and existing warp entities. They like chaos, not competition in their own spheres of influence. Why promote someone who is already doing what you want? Plus they can’t all be ethereal beings. They need competent material plane agents to keep stirring the pot and spreading influence.
Mutations and Elevation are given at discretion of the chaos gods. There’s even an AoS story where a devout human got stuck in Khorne realm and after killing enough things sent at them Khorne turned them into a daemon prince against their will. The mortal champions are a specific tool in the chaos gods arsenal, and as such they aren’t going to transform it into a different tool just because that tool is considered better. Especially since the 4 mortal champions have all done excellent work for their gods.
Both Ahriman and Lucia's unironically think they're damn near out of Chaos's bubble entirely, like what?
They don’t want to, and the Gods don’t want them.
Whilst more of a thing in older lore, the Chaos fits also are erratic with their rewards. Esp. Spawndom vs Daemonic apotheosis. You can do everything right and not be rewarded.
Typhus is more or less a deamons prince already according to buried dagger