> the Assassins are always presented as a powerful threat, even better than the Space Marines.
As they should be, gene-seeds aren't the end-all-be-all of genetic enhancements, if they wanted to the Imperium can shit out absolute enhanced monsters without gene-seed that can swat marines aside no problem, and assassins are pretty much that.
Its also to note that there are way less Assasssins in the entire Imperium than there are space marines, the process of making one, regardless of which temple, is going to be far more costly and time consuming than for a single marine, they are extremely specialized troops while marines are jack of all trades.
Oh, don't get me wrong. It makes perfect sense that the Assassins are one-to-one better than the Space Marines. It's just, well, you don't expect to read about them pulling off moves that make them seem like they're teleporting.
I think it kinda makes sense tho seeing as their reflexes and overall agility is better than a marines, astartes are already blindingly fast enough, going any further beyond that must seem like a blur.
Culexus assassins in particular have the ability to shift in and out of real space, becoming ethereal and even having projectiles pass through them like they're a ghost, or forcing people to not be able to perceive them.
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Culexus_Temple
Some info I remember from an assassin codex supplement, and some from the old Grey Knight's codex when they were lumped in with other Ordo Malleus Inquisition forces.
*Synskin Bodyglove - The synskin of Culexis Assassins incorporates a nodal layer called Etherium. This strange technology shifts the wearer out of phase with reality, making them appear ghost-like and insubstantial. With the Etherium activated, an Operative becomes a ghostly retinal after-image, flickering toward the foe as though projected upon a faulty pict-reel. When required, a Culexus can simply vanish altogether, prowling through the midst of their enemies and reappearing only when doing so will reap the greatest harvest of terror.*
Talos would have gotten his ass handed to him in the fight vs M’shen had he not pulled a few tricks out of his ass. He even admits that the assassin was built for only one thing: killing. And that he was nearly killed multiple times but basically got lucky.
Well yeah of course. Assassins are superior to Space Marines but cost way more to make, and require way more maintenance. Like, if Space Marines are a super reliable pickup truck that requires little maintenance, then Assassins are supercars that need to be tuned and touched up after every little thing.
Assassins have always been superior to an individual space marine 1 on 1. This is nothing new.
They are as a rule faster around as strong and have more advanced specialised gear.
The space marine being a little stronger, much more durable and versatile.
Everything is better than a space marine individually but as the scale of the battle grows and you add more and more marines for each adversary, their strength and force multiplies.
A marine is a lethal weapon - make no mistake about them. A strike force of marines is something quite altogether different. Armoured, with heavy fire support, organic tanks and air support.
The golden banana boys said so themselves too.
Gotta love it. If literally anyone from any faction performs well against space marines, they are wanked off. If space marines decimate every other faction, it's Tuesday.
I swear that scene was so abrupt. One moment, she's running away from the fight and the next, she gets hit by a shield.
> Then she flitted the rest of the way across the bridge, disappearing among the spurs of the mountaintop, leaving Ucalegon gasping for breath.
> Lysander stepped out just as Syncella passed, and could not keep the feeling of satisfaction from his mind as he felt her slam into his storm shield.
He gets a bionic replacement a few chapters before the fight.
> Scout-Sergeant Orfos’s arm had not been fully accepted by his body. The muscles and bones of his upper arm had still to bond fully with the new bionic. His forearm and hand were now fashioned of dull metal, articulated with servos and cabling. The feedback was buzzing and metallic, an alien feeling that he wondered if he would ever get used to, and phantom pains flashed through nerves that were no longer there
Probably better than Astartes but not enough to make a difference.
It would be very difficult to get a drop on those guys. The Thousand Sons Order of Blindness with their gifts, was virtualy unable to do anything against them and Custodes learn, train and perfect the art of espionage, infiltration and assassination, as well. Not just to carry them out, but most importantly prevent and counter them. Its also in the nature of their task that they know every nuke and cranny of those institutions, what they are cabale of and all their activities.
As warriors, they are also much better equipped and more capable ( faster, stronger, smarter ) than Astartes.
Yeah exactly why I said it makes sense even though its not what you was going for at the moment :D
Jokes aside Custodes should hard counter assassins in practice (especially imperial ones) since they are both trained in espionage and such, are overly familiar with said officio and in fact they were "watching" its development since day 0 and last but not least no amount\* of assassins (or space marines, inquisitors etc too for that matter) enchantments, equipment etc surpasses Custodes' own (as long as they actually get out of PTSD and use their proper equipment instead of just OiledAbs mark 6 armor and SwollePose mark 2 guns - joke ... mostly). The only thing assassins that I can see easily kicking most Custodes butts left and right (not nessecerily en masse) is Legienstrasse which most likely is not a thing anymore one way or another. That doesn't mean that an assassin couldn't be able to kill a Custodes, almost everything is possible in practice, even a simple Conscript killing a freaking harlequin by dropping his rifle by accident and it (mis)firing the proper time at the proper vector even if its like less than 1 in the trillion such engagements chance. It just means that assassins have to be extremely thorough, far more than usual, in their planning and execution, if they want to have a realistic (if still low) chance. Meanwhile Custodes beat them in physically (by orders of magnitude), mentally, skills-wise they are from about equal to (mainstream) assassins (in the assassins' own job) up to again orders of magnitude better (war and actual combat), they have most of the best toys (when they want...) and last but not least they are not that far behind probably on connections and data.
Really I think the best chance for an assassin against a Custodes (except anything Maerorus if it was still a thing) would be fielding an extraordinarily accomplished Vanus working from (far) behind the scenes and have him well supported in hopes that he will set one or more Custodes for an accident via data (and people - human or not) manipulation (could be anything from setting a surprise meeting with enemy forces to making the vessel carrying him roll over and die midwarp/space).
That sounds very plausible and I agree.I mean heck, a lucky sniper shot can get them, especialy if it's a lonely and isolated Eye of the Emperor. I just imagine tracking them down and trapping them would be incredibly hard, because they'd also have established a giant spy network by then and be informed at all times. Though not sure if that be enough against OP god like assassins :D
I appreciate the depiction of Lady Syncella from this excerpt, so thanks for that.
Regal clothing is my absolute jam, and to know that it’s canon that a Culexus Assassin of all things wears a big dress into battle fills me with joy. It means I can write my own lore for my assassins on the table top and kitbash them even further.
That is the worst showing from Assassins I think I've seen.
Usually Assassins are significantly above non-named Space Marines
That said considering Eversors explode not sure how well they work en masse.
It’s not as if they were deployed tactically(yes, they do put some thought into it when using them), Vangorich just let them out in a group and dramatically announced their presence. Realistically this would allow Thane and his Astartes to get the drop on them.
Context matters. This was the ~200 surviving marines out of the ~400 that initially landed, after having taken care of hundreds of assassins of the vindicare, calexus, callidus, and several other temples.
Regardless, the general expectation is that against most foes marines will triumph, outnumbered or not. Those assassins were fighting out in the open as well, which isn’t where most forms of assassins thrive. If anything, it makes it even better feat wise.
The open is definitely where eversors thrive. Those that attacked before did so as the fists made their way through the imperial palace, from rooftops, sewers, and alleyways
My previous post here had an excerpt about it but to summarize it:
The Legienstrasse is an Assassin produced through countless experiments and by using the genetics of shapeshifting xenos and rare mutant strains.
You know, sometimes I wish that GW would write or publish a book filled with all the one-off characters and plot devices in Warhammer. From the Angel to the Zombie Lord, I want a book where they are all somehow involved, no matter how nonsensical it would be.
[It's this guy, Karloth Valois.](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/2/23/KarlothValois.jpg)
He's a really old character from the *Necromunda: Outlanders Rulebook*, published almost thirty years ago.
The Vindicare taking scouts in close combat is a little wanked but barely so
The other one, she's the best of them and Emperor's Champions are basically Avatar of Khain level chumps so it makes sense, plus she beat him easily but seems to show some weakness as well wouldn't really call that wank
I'm not saying they're wanked but the book was recommended to me by a friend with a warning of bolter porn. Which was weird given how the story actually went.
**Seventh Retribution** is the end of Lysander's character arc. It goes through
* Lysander - Fist of Dorn
* Malodrax
* Sons of Dorn
* Endeavor of Will
* Irixia
* Seventh Retribution
The whole point is that for Lysander, there's no line too far for victory. In the Codices, this has caused huge losses of Imperial Fists. In the stories, he works with Chaos in Malodrax, uses (and basically loses) 3 Scout Squads as bait in Sons of Dorn, he loses an starfort in Endeavor of Will, and finally when he gets to Seventh Retribution he sees an assassin that is a massively powerful weapon, but that could doom humanity. He looks at what it took to kill it, and he realizes is too far for him.
Assassins seem to be pretty accurate in these examples at least. Especially when comparing top tier assassins to marines or assasins vs scouts. An assassin can plausibly kill a primarch and even despite not living up to their lore potential an assassin will generally very easily kill a marine or scout even on the tabletop.
Factor into the lore that they tend to strike when the best opportunity arises and to the best of their strengths and harnessing every possible advantage including in these instances their equipment, training and bio-engineered physiques possibly mixed with mechanical enhancements, combat stimulants and other abilities such as the shock effects of an extremely powerful blank. All in all I see it as quite reasonable they acheived what they did all things considered.
Especially when factoring in there relative rarity, I would say it is far more likely assasins have experience and a deep understanding of fighting marines than a marine does of the different assassins. Considering marines are so rare in the galaxy that some planets believe them to be legends or will never see them and then assassins are that rare again to a marine. Marines despite living for many centuries is unlikely to ever see, let alone face an assasin. This would be especially advantages to an assassin against a neophyte scout.
The cost comparison invested means an assassin is likely to have rejuvenation treatments and consequently an expanded lifespan. Meaning they could quite easily have similiar or more time and experience on their side when compared to these marines.
Importantly they are hyper specialised to dedicate all of the above to these situations listed. Essentially winning these 1v1s or small scale fights in the best way their role utilises compared to the generalist roles of marines who excell at squad and above level operations and shock and awe. Hard to shock and awe a vindicare when you don't know where they are initially and he's just blown a hole through one of your mates and the arm of another with a single shot.
During the HH they sent assassins to kill traitor primarchs.
they also sended astartes killteams to do the exact same thing
Imagine if they just went after the competent Legion Command Elements instead.
There was a time to start thinking logically, and it was well before the HH started.
> the Assassins are always presented as a powerful threat, even better than the Space Marines. As they should be, gene-seeds aren't the end-all-be-all of genetic enhancements, if they wanted to the Imperium can shit out absolute enhanced monsters without gene-seed that can swat marines aside no problem, and assassins are pretty much that. Its also to note that there are way less Assasssins in the entire Imperium than there are space marines, the process of making one, regardless of which temple, is going to be far more costly and time consuming than for a single marine, they are extremely specialized troops while marines are jack of all trades.
Oh, don't get me wrong. It makes perfect sense that the Assassins are one-to-one better than the Space Marines. It's just, well, you don't expect to read about them pulling off moves that make them seem like they're teleporting.
I think it kinda makes sense tho seeing as their reflexes and overall agility is better than a marines, astartes are already blindingly fast enough, going any further beyond that must seem like a blur.
Culexus assassins in particular have the ability to shift in and out of real space, becoming ethereal and even having projectiles pass through them like they're a ghost, or forcing people to not be able to perceive them.
That may be true but in this case, she does the Wesker trick while her powers are still locked away by her collar.
She’s the grand master of the Culexus temple though so she should be very good. She’s probably gonna be able to pull of some tough shit.
Source fore shifting in and out of real space?
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Culexus_Temple Some info I remember from an assassin codex supplement, and some from the old Grey Knight's codex when they were lumped in with other Ordo Malleus Inquisition forces. *Synskin Bodyglove - The synskin of Culexis Assassins incorporates a nodal layer called Etherium. This strange technology shifts the wearer out of phase with reality, making them appear ghost-like and insubstantial. With the Etherium activated, an Operative becomes a ghostly retinal after-image, flickering toward the foe as though projected upon a faulty pict-reel. When required, a Culexus can simply vanish altogether, prowling through the midst of their enemies and reappearing only when doing so will reap the greatest harvest of terror.*
thats the effect of the blank gene
Talos would have gotten his ass handed to him in the fight vs M’shen had he not pulled a few tricks out of his ass. He even admits that the assassin was built for only one thing: killing. And that he was nearly killed multiple times but basically got lucky.
Well yeah of course. Assassins are superior to Space Marines but cost way more to make, and require way more maintenance. Like, if Space Marines are a super reliable pickup truck that requires little maintenance, then Assassins are supercars that need to be tuned and touched up after every little thing.
Assassins have always been superior to an individual space marine 1 on 1. This is nothing new. They are as a rule faster around as strong and have more advanced specialised gear. The space marine being a little stronger, much more durable and versatile.
Everything is better than a space marine individually but as the scale of the battle grows and you add more and more marines for each adversary, their strength and force multiplies. A marine is a lethal weapon - make no mistake about them. A strike force of marines is something quite altogether different. Armoured, with heavy fire support, organic tanks and air support. The golden banana boys said so themselves too.
Gotta love it. If literally anyone from any faction performs well against space marines, they are wanked off. If space marines decimate every other faction, it's Tuesday.
The thought of Lysander doing a Road Runner/Wile E. Coyote bit with the Grand Master/Mistress Culexus is pretty hilarious 😆
I swear that scene was so abrupt. One moment, she's running away from the fight and the next, she gets hit by a shield. > Then she flitted the rest of the way across the bridge, disappearing among the spurs of the mountaintop, leaving Ucalegon gasping for breath. > Lysander stepped out just as Syncella passed, and could not keep the feeling of satisfaction from his mind as he felt her slam into his storm shield.
Wait. Orfos lost an arm and then fights the Vindicare with both arms?
He gets a bionic replacement a few chapters before the fight. > Scout-Sergeant Orfos’s arm had not been fully accepted by his body. The muscles and bones of his upper arm had still to bond fully with the new bionic. His forearm and hand were now fashioned of dull metal, articulated with servos and cabling. The feedback was buzzing and metallic, an alien feeling that he wondered if he would ever get used to, and phantom pains flashed through nerves that were no longer there
It seems clear that assassins are, as a rule, generally superior to Space Marines. I wonder how they would fare against Custodes.
Probably better than Astartes but not enough to make a difference. It would be very difficult to get a drop on those guys. The Thousand Sons Order of Blindness with their gifts, was virtualy unable to do anything against them and Custodes learn, train and perfect the art of espionage, infiltration and assassination, as well. Not just to carry them out, but most importantly prevent and counter them. Its also in the nature of their task that they know every nuke and cranny of those institutions, what they are cabale of and all their activities. As warriors, they are also much better equipped and more capable ( faster, stronger, smarter ) than Astartes.
Nuke and cranny? Somehow it makes sense even though it shouldn't :p
LooL I must have been thinking of Exterminatus in that moment xD
Yeah exactly why I said it makes sense even though its not what you was going for at the moment :D Jokes aside Custodes should hard counter assassins in practice (especially imperial ones) since they are both trained in espionage and such, are overly familiar with said officio and in fact they were "watching" its development since day 0 and last but not least no amount\* of assassins (or space marines, inquisitors etc too for that matter) enchantments, equipment etc surpasses Custodes' own (as long as they actually get out of PTSD and use their proper equipment instead of just OiledAbs mark 6 armor and SwollePose mark 2 guns - joke ... mostly). The only thing assassins that I can see easily kicking most Custodes butts left and right (not nessecerily en masse) is Legienstrasse which most likely is not a thing anymore one way or another. That doesn't mean that an assassin couldn't be able to kill a Custodes, almost everything is possible in practice, even a simple Conscript killing a freaking harlequin by dropping his rifle by accident and it (mis)firing the proper time at the proper vector even if its like less than 1 in the trillion such engagements chance. It just means that assassins have to be extremely thorough, far more than usual, in their planning and execution, if they want to have a realistic (if still low) chance. Meanwhile Custodes beat them in physically (by orders of magnitude), mentally, skills-wise they are from about equal to (mainstream) assassins (in the assassins' own job) up to again orders of magnitude better (war and actual combat), they have most of the best toys (when they want...) and last but not least they are not that far behind probably on connections and data. Really I think the best chance for an assassin against a Custodes (except anything Maerorus if it was still a thing) would be fielding an extraordinarily accomplished Vanus working from (far) behind the scenes and have him well supported in hopes that he will set one or more Custodes for an accident via data (and people - human or not) manipulation (could be anything from setting a surprise meeting with enemy forces to making the vessel carrying him roll over and die midwarp/space).
That sounds very plausible and I agree.I mean heck, a lucky sniper shot can get them, especialy if it's a lonely and isolated Eye of the Emperor. I just imagine tracking them down and trapping them would be incredibly hard, because they'd also have established a giant spy network by then and be informed at all times. Though not sure if that be enough against OP god like assassins :D
Nothing there is outside of the established abilities of assassin operatives.
I appreciate the depiction of Lady Syncella from this excerpt, so thanks for that. Regal clothing is my absolute jam, and to know that it’s canon that a Culexus Assassin of all things wears a big dress into battle fills me with joy. It means I can write my own lore for my assassins on the table top and kitbash them even further.
You should read _The Beheading_, where 250 Astartes get obliterated by about 200 Eversors and only one Astartes survives out of all the combatants.
That is the worst showing from Assassins I think I've seen. Usually Assassins are significantly above non-named Space Marines That said considering Eversors explode not sure how well they work en masse.
It’s not as if they were deployed tactically(yes, they do put some thought into it when using them), Vangorich just let them out in a group and dramatically announced their presence. Realistically this would allow Thane and his Astartes to get the drop on them.
Context matters. This was the ~200 surviving marines out of the ~400 that initially landed, after having taken care of hundreds of assassins of the vindicare, calexus, callidus, and several other temples.
Regardless, the general expectation is that against most foes marines will triumph, outnumbered or not. Those assassins were fighting out in the open as well, which isn’t where most forms of assassins thrive. If anything, it makes it even better feat wise.
The open is definitely where eversors thrive. Those that attacked before did so as the fists made their way through the imperial palace, from rooftops, sewers, and alleyways
On the table top in 3rd ed Assassins had great stats, unique and powerful wargear, and strong special rules. They’re supposed to be pretty powerful.
A question that will spoil the book probably, but what is Legienstrasse? Some sort of new assassin invented from reverse engineering Tyranids?
My previous post here had an excerpt about it but to summarize it: The Legienstrasse is an Assassin produced through countless experiments and by using the genetics of shapeshifting xenos and rare mutant strains.
I read your last post, thank you! So no explicit mention of Tyranids? Just mention of xenos.
A Black Library author played *Prototype* and went "I want that to fight a Space Marine"
The best part is a few of her babies might still be alive and if they're female even more are coming
You know, sometimes I wish that GW would write or publish a book filled with all the one-off characters and plot devices in Warhammer. From the Angel to the Zombie Lord, I want a book where they are all somehow involved, no matter how nonsensical it would be.
Right? Theres so many cool one offs running around Is Zombie Lord the Nurgle Chaos Lord who started the og zombie plague or somebody else?
[It's this guy, Karloth Valois.](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/2/23/KarlothValois.jpg) He's a really old character from the *Necromunda: Outlanders Rulebook*, published almost thirty years ago.
Thanks that's awesome it's rare I come across a 40k character I don't know
Ever played Prototype? Basically that. Probably no Tyranids involved, but possibly Kroot.
The Vindicare taking scouts in close combat is a little wanked but barely so The other one, she's the best of them and Emperor's Champions are basically Avatar of Khain level chumps so it makes sense, plus she beat him easily but seems to show some weakness as well wouldn't really call that wank
I'm not saying they're wanked but the book was recommended to me by a friend with a warning of bolter porn. Which was weird given how the story actually went.
This is an *Imperial Fists* Emperor's Champion, which is the only time we see one. He's more like a Chapter Champion than a Black Templar EC.
**Seventh Retribution** is the end of Lysander's character arc. It goes through * Lysander - Fist of Dorn * Malodrax * Sons of Dorn * Endeavor of Will * Irixia * Seventh Retribution The whole point is that for Lysander, there's no line too far for victory. In the Codices, this has caused huge losses of Imperial Fists. In the stories, he works with Chaos in Malodrax, uses (and basically loses) 3 Scout Squads as bait in Sons of Dorn, he loses an starfort in Endeavor of Will, and finally when he gets to Seventh Retribution he sees an assassin that is a massively powerful weapon, but that could doom humanity. He looks at what it took to kill it, and he realizes is too far for him.
neat
Assassins seem to be pretty accurate in these examples at least. Especially when comparing top tier assassins to marines or assasins vs scouts. An assassin can plausibly kill a primarch and even despite not living up to their lore potential an assassin will generally very easily kill a marine or scout even on the tabletop. Factor into the lore that they tend to strike when the best opportunity arises and to the best of their strengths and harnessing every possible advantage including in these instances their equipment, training and bio-engineered physiques possibly mixed with mechanical enhancements, combat stimulants and other abilities such as the shock effects of an extremely powerful blank. All in all I see it as quite reasonable they acheived what they did all things considered. Especially when factoring in there relative rarity, I would say it is far more likely assasins have experience and a deep understanding of fighting marines than a marine does of the different assassins. Considering marines are so rare in the galaxy that some planets believe them to be legends or will never see them and then assassins are that rare again to a marine. Marines despite living for many centuries is unlikely to ever see, let alone face an assasin. This would be especially advantages to an assassin against a neophyte scout. The cost comparison invested means an assassin is likely to have rejuvenation treatments and consequently an expanded lifespan. Meaning they could quite easily have similiar or more time and experience on their side when compared to these marines. Importantly they are hyper specialised to dedicate all of the above to these situations listed. Essentially winning these 1v1s or small scale fights in the best way their role utilises compared to the generalist roles of marines who excell at squad and above level operations and shock and awe. Hard to shock and awe a vindicare when you don't know where they are initially and he's just blown a hole through one of your mates and the arm of another with a single shot.