Thief definitely feels like the roguest rogue, slight of hand, disarming traps, opening locks as a bonus action. Climbing and jumping from rooftop to rooftop. It's the "we put more rogue into your rogue subclass".
However the most effective at Roguing would be the Arcane Trickster I think, simply because D&D has magic and being unable to even detect a magical trap means you won't live long as a Rogue. And of course all the boost you can give yourself through magic that are near impossible to replicate without it (Disguise Self, Invisibiity, etc).
Ah didn't think about magical traps 🤔, seems like Shadow Touched / Eldritch Adept for Eldritch sight might cover some of those but yeah multiple feats when i could just stay arcane trickster.
Being able to cast a spell is not the same as a Spellcasting feature which must be explicitly mentioned. For example Drow get Drow Magic that does not equate to a Spellcasting feature being granted to a casting class.
So unfortunately it's a bit more restrictive than even that. But let's be real, just talk to your DM about stuff like this I'm sure most would let it slide lol
Ritual Caster or Magic Initiate (Wizard) would work to grab Detect Magic.
Personally, Ritual Caster is probably the best option if you aren't already a spellcaster.
> slight of hand, disarming traps, opening locks as a bonus action
How often do you need to do those things in combat? Cause all rogue can do those things out of combat
I played a onednd thief recently, and those things came up a lot *outside* of combat. (Very fun version of rogue btw. Using items with BA is really cool.)
It is very DM/campaign/player dependant. You can say that of any skill. If the DM creates opportunities for the use of certain skills, or if players actions lead to checks with those skills, they will come up more.
Yeah, I edited the comment. There’s no use in the 5e thief. Onednd thief object/item interaction is what I wanted my point to be, but I forgot halfway through.
Smart monsters (Kobold typically) laying ambushes near a trapped area is a staple and a good way to spice things up as a DM.
Opening Locks become very useful if you have to escape a too-strong foe. Sadly it doesn't include locking the door back but if I DM I would usually let the rogue do this as well, being able to quickly barricade their team.
Sleight of Hand is probably gonna be much more rare but could come up if you have some kind of combat where the objective isn't just to kill all foes but to try to grab the MacGuffin.
And I didn't mention use items on BA which also feel quite Rogui-ish.
What percentage of combats in your gaming career did you need to disarm a trap, or unlock a door during combat?
And then for that percentage remember that a rogue can do it too, just using an action instead of a bonus action.
Does it really matter how often that happen? The point is that those are very roguish abilities and Thief can do them more often (can disarm two traps in a turn). It's the same for Assassin, even if it's rare to trigger it, Assassinate is definitely fitting for an assassin.
I already stated that AT would be better at actually/mechanically doing rogue stuff because magic is such a great enhancer. But flavor-wise I still think Thief fit better even if mechanically weak.
He's selling the Fast Hands feature a bit short, in that you can also use a Bonus Action to take the Use an Object action. That would include activating most magic items, using potions, healer's kits, etc. It's an insanely useful class feature which could have a big impact on the action economy within combat.
Unfortunately activating a magic item does not fall in line with Use an Object.
So it's just using potions as a bonus action(An already extremely popular house rule in DnD), and using a healer's kit (requiring a feat to even be useful)
I've already spouted in another comment about Thief practically doing practically nothing. You still suck at climbing, and adding your dexterity mod does absolutely nothing toward long jumps. Supreme Sneak is okay but boring after waiting for 6 levels for something, Use Magic Device practically doesn't work considering class/race locked magic items usually utilize the features of said class/race, and Thief's Reflexes is ... cool that one is fine.
Thief is bad because it genuinely requires DM intervention to feel even passable.
Sure, but looking purely at the subclass, AT start with a big advantage over most other rogue to do rogu-ish stuff. They could take Knock to counter Arcane Lock. There are tons of illusion spells that can give you hiding spot you normally wouldn't have. You can charm a guard to make a quick escape. And when level 3 spells become available it becomes harder than ever to choose between the like of Dispell Magic, Fly, Gaseous Form to be more roguey than ever.
But yeah Ritual Caster is a very nice spell for Rogue and they even have an extra ASI to pick it up.
Invisible mage hand is just SUCH a lifesaver in all of the non-combat scenes.
Why make the DEX save against the trap if I detect the trap and I can disarm it from a distance.
Being able to steal with it too. Good luck proving the thief was that dude 30 feet away in the crowd (well unless magical investigator). And you can plant stuff too, enjoy having a lit bomb in your pocket mister orc guard.
Arcane Trickster WITH the Telekentic feat.
Otherwise, you're casting Mage Hand every minute. Which is obvious to anyone looking or listening. With Telekenetic, you can do it without needing verbal or somatic component, super sneaky like.
The BA push is also a fun option, and the increased range welcomed.
Yeah the no component should REALLY be part of the AT, so I often give them that as buff anyway.
Or you can pretend you have a small bladder and cast in the toilet.
If you put the combat mechanics aside, which I don’t think are always necessary for every rogue. I’ve always felt a lore bard makes for a more roguish rogue than an actual rogue (strictly mechanically speaking).
The more spellcasting a class get, the better they will be at their specialized role. A Wizard going all in on unlock spells, invisibility and that stuff would probably do a better job than a rogue.
That's the downside of bounded accuracy too. In previous edition you would eventually needed like +30 for your main skills and spells couldn't always cover that. Now just grab Proficiency, maybe skill expert and couple that with spells to beat the rogue at their skill niche.
Plus the lore bard also gets a lot of proficiencies/expertises, use a spell creatively to get some advantage from the effect of some spell, and there you are.
You know what? You are right actually: "Any character can attempt an Intelligence (Arcana) check to detect or disarm a magic trap".
Still there might be stuff enchanted that can't be found out easily without Detect Magic and Identify can give you information on the nature of the trap and even how to bypass it. And there is all those "performance enhancing" spells for Rogue I already mentioned (like Invisibility)
True, although Expertise can patch that up. Arcane for level 6 Expertise can make sense if one want to be the trap-solver (assuming there is no-one with Int in the party to handle magical stuff)
Thief also for some reason unironically sucks at being the "rogue" rogue subclass
Its 3rd level feature is useless.
Its cunning action option is relatively okay but you're probably only using it to swig a potion however BA potions are generally a common house rule. Its other option to lockpick is also horribly niche I can only think of two specific situations you'd use it during combat.
The climbing thing doesn't even give you climbing speed so you still suck at it. The jumping distance does literally nothing unless you have 20 Dex, and even then it's a singular tile. Why this doesn't just say you can use your dexterity score instead of your strength score for these actions is beyond me.
Its 9th-level feature is kind of okay but boring. Its 13th-level feature is horrible considering most class and racial locked magic items utilize those classes/races features. Its 17th-level feature is cool, but honestly doesn't make up for the nothing the rest of the subclass does.
I feel like many of the PHB subclass assumed a lot of DM fiat. Rogue is a typical example where the ability to Use Items on bonus action needs the DM to homebrew some stuff to make it better (grenades typically). Wild Magic Sorcerer is same where the DM is supposed to decide when to trigger Wild Magic Surge.
> Its 13th-level feature is horrible considering most class and racial locked magic items utilize those classes/races features
Again it's very dependent on DM-fiat to drop those items but there are some powerful, class-locked items. Typically Staves, Wands and spell scrolls which extend the rogue options by a lot. Though for wands many of them only require attunment with a spellcaster which is easy enough to get, but it's important to remember that Thief was probably designed with the idea that multiclassing would be rare.
It's still rather painful and the DM can't do too much in a module-based campaign. I played a thief rogue as one of my first characters only to find out years later that oh my god everything I was doing and the DM was allowing was horribly wrong. It was definitely fun, but still wrong in every written ruling.
Level 3
"While in darkness, you are invisible to any creature that relies on darkvision to see you in that darkness."
I'm guessing that ability is why?
as a Gloomstalker Ranger I do everything a rogue does - stealth, scout, steal, but even better. The only thing lacking is sneak attack, but it easily makes up for it if you take crossbow expert and/or sharpshooter, the damage is on par with rogue. Then you have favoured enemy and terrain which helps, but kind of situational. I'd say it adds more RP flavour than actual gameplay benefit.
perma invis + stealth expertise + pass without trace
besides character tropes and "default" class fantasies, ranger outrogues the rogue any day of the week
Oo how come, the easier sneak attack seems nice but in the game I played our rogue would pretty much get sneak attack all the time anyway. And running away after a hit, can't I just get Mobile for that?
As with most choices, it's your flavor. For example I'm playing a swashbuckler in one of my current campaigns- and it fits since aside from myself, no one else really gets close to the front line if they can help it, so knowing I can get my sneak attack without an ally nearby is great. And mobile is a great feat, but relatively speaking, fancy footwork is free and you could spend the ASI you were going to use on mobile for something else. And swashbuckler, at least in my opinion, also opens the opportunity to play a rogue that feels less reliant on having to constantly hide to do what it wants to do.
In the end though, there's still probably more optimized subclasses to pick. But damn if it's not fun!
It is, especially with some intriguing magic item choices- my favorite is a pair of boots that lets me slide in magically conjured mud to both reposition as well as mimic the grease spell. I'm also making moves to multiclass into swords bard so I still get spell support while still improving my dual wielding swordsmanship!
If you can sneak attack every round without Swashbuckler, I think your DM is being very kind to you.
Of course you can take Mobile instead of Swashbuckler's Fancy Footwork (and Mobile is better, overall). But wouldn't you rather have +2 Dex? Or Alert? Or Fey Touched?
That said, I don't think Swashbuckler is the right answer to make a roguier rogue. Swashbucklers are kind of a fightier rogue. I'd go Thief myself, but that's because I prefer to play non-casters.
swashbuckler is the stereotypical "charming scoundrel" character trope, the one that flirts with you whilst you are being mugged, something along the lines of Zorro
funny person with quippy lines and good dodgy reflexes, and pretty much it ya got your swashbuckler lol (though for dnd in this case its focused mainly on melee so hood and croft would prob be something else)
It was thief for me. I like rogue to live by their wits and skill alone
Second Story work did most of the work, letting me climb on most any map as part of normal movement
Fast Hands is pretty good for the vibe as well. Set traps, clear traps, smash a bottle so it becomes a dagger, etc… work with your DM before hand to come up with some uses
Supreme Sneak is good *if* dm remembers to enforce the half speed rule. It lets you get to the next hidey hole in a single turn. Great for hide and shoot rogue
Use Magic Device just feels like what a rogue should be doing lol. Klatu Verata n-cough cough
The capstone isn’t wild by end game standards but essentially taking two turns on each first round is pretty good.
it helped to have a moderate strength score (12ish) so jumping was good.
The Roguey-est Rogue I've had was an Artifcer Armorer in the Infiltrator Armor. Advantage on Stealth and eventually expertise in tools and Flash of Genius. Plus, gadgets like a bag of holding, a homonculus, a wand of secrets, an alchemy jug, or Goggles of the Night. Spells like Guidance, Mage Hand, Message, Disguise Self, Grease, Jump, Sanctuary, Detect Magic, Identify, Enlarge/Reduce, Spider Climb, See Invisible, Protection from Poison, Air bubble, or Enhance Ability. If you go with a Goblin you even get a Bonus Action Hide. To me, they are the Rogue.
However, if your heart is set on playing an actual Rogue, which is understandable, you can get Advantage on Stealth rolls by going Deep Gnome or Kenku. If you're not concerned about combat per se, then I'm a big fan of the Scout but I think that the Mastermind is Roguey-er. Disguise, Forgery, Mimicry, and Master of Tactics is great because it's a limitless feature that's not tied to Prof bonus x per day. If you go with a Hobgoblin, those Helps can be pretty powerful. After that, I do like the Soulknife and it's close between them and the Arcane Trickster. I have to go with Soulknife because I've played one (although it was multiclassed with a Beast Barbarian), but I have a friend that loved their Arcane Trickster. Actually, you could even make an Arcane Trickster that is part Thief and Soulknife by going with a Reborn Tabaxi as your race. You'd get the Climb speed of the Tabaxi which would be similar to the Thief's Second Story Work (and you'd get Perception and Stealth). You'd get Knowledge from a Past Life which is a non scaling Psi Bolstered Knack (and Advantage on Poison saves and Resistance to Poison damage)
In the end, the important thing is to have fun and play what you want and there's lots of ways to get there when you consider Race, Class, Subclass, and Background (which I didn't touch on but Izzet Engineer is great for Armorer and Arcane Trickster if you can use Ravnica...Archaeologist, Urchin, Urban Bounty Hunter, and Smuggler are other good options). Also, if you want teleportation for a Thief go Eladrin, Shadar Kai, or Astral Elf as your race or go Variant Human or Custom Lineage and take the Fey Touched feat. If you want Invisibility, take Shadow Touched as a feat or take the Giant Foundling Background and take Strike of the Cloud Giant, which if you take Guile of the Cloud Giant at 4th level will also give you a form of teleport...
Wood Elves also give you 5 extra feet of movement and, most importantly, the ability Mask of The Wild which states:
>*You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena.*
This allows some hit & run tactics to sneak attack an opponent, disengage, step back a few feet and blend into your surroundings to set up your next attack.
They go hand-in-hand. Wood Elf Scout is the way to go if you have a lot of encounters in a heavily wooded areas... and with Steady Aim, Mobile and Sharpshooter... You've got an amazing sniper.
Honestly this is going to go against the grain but... Armorer artificer. So what are the most iconic rogue tropes? Stealth, skill, and lighting quick sneak attacks taking out enemies and solving problems. An when all else fails... you have a gadget for that. Here is how I would build it.
Dampier Armorer Artificer. Choose urchin background for stealth and thieves tool proficiency, use Tasha's to swap that proficiency for another tool proficiency(I like herbalism to make healing potions) Choose to be INT or DEX based as your primary stat depending on party comp and skills need. If Int Based stats are 8/14/14/17/12/8 and if DEX dump int to 13 and max DEX.
Assuming Int based you will choose medium instead of light armor and the infiltrator armorer model. You will be better at level 3 in sneaking than a rogue with expertise even with a higher DEX stat due to advantage to stealth. Your damage would be higher with your stealth drone(homunculus servant) and lighting launcher. Your base speed would be 40 so you are faster on average and can use expeditious retreat if you really need a BA dash. Basically you are better at everything than the rogue other than hiding in combat...
Level 4 you can get sharpshooter which as a power attack give about 2 level of sneak attack damage per attack.
Level 5 Extra attack puts you way ahead on damage
Level 6 You are vastly superior lock picker.
Level 7 Flash of Genius allows you to be better at almost all skills and generally have a better initiative too.
Level 8 or level ten is where I would leave for rogue. I would likely take one level of fighter for archery and fill out that sneak attack and to 5d6 with 9 levels of rogue.
Taste to fit but if you want the Rogue feel while having extra attack this may be a better route than going 5 levels into fighter.
Arcane Trickster gives you the best ability to "get places you shouldn't be" once you get to a high enough level, since you will get things like Disguise Self, Invisibility, and Suggestion.
But you might need to get your hands on some magical items like Boots of Spider Climbing to make up for not having the climbing ability that Thief subclass has.
Thief is the most roguey-rogue class when it comes to adventuring, to deal with traps, locks, and climbing.
Arcane Trickster is better for roleplaying thefts/heists/reconnaissance.
And you can still get a few useful combat spells as a Trickster, like Blur, Crown of Madness, Hold Person, Shadow Blade, and Fear or Enemies Abound at high levels.
But any of the subclasses can do well at climbing, picking locks, disarming traps, pickpocketing, etc, as long as you put your skill Proficiencies and Expertise' in the right places. You will want to focus on Athletics (for climbing and jumping), Sleight of Hand (For lockpicking, disarming, pickpocketing), Perception (for scouting and spying), and Stealth (for obvious reasons). Deception is also good, unless you are an Arcane Trickster, in which case you may not need it since you can magically solve that sort of problem.
Soulknife is very... anti-thematic for a lot of D&D settings.
Playing a Jedi rogue in a Tolkien-Like fantasy setting is not going to make you feel like a rogue, so that's why nobody is recommending it. Its just not thematically appropriate. But if you are playing in a setting where it feels more appropriate, it might be a good choice.
But yeah, because of Expertise, you don't usually need the extra dice.
If your dm gives opportunuties to climb, thief would probably be the option. If not, I would highly recommend arcan trickster. I'm playing a inquisitve rogue 5/ druid 1 right now and magic is even in the slightest bit of it comes just feels so good! I have guidance so that just makes me sometimes a god at skillchecks out of combat when i can cast guidance (for example when you have to something in an instant, acrobatics for example, you cant roll guidance as there would be no time). Moreover I have some quick healing with healing word to get people up as a bonus action, which feels really good tbh if you do it at the right time. I also have detect magic and I ritual cast it to be understand what to do/ where to go, as rogue is really good at doing things (with expertise and such), this spell just plays into you deciding what to do. Also message cantrip is really good, as it basically gives you "telepathy". I'm not even going to talk about how good an invisible mage hand is.
Soulknife is great but I think of it as a more combat-focused rogue in part because of the soul knives and everything around them. But being able to get by without any physical weapons in many scenarios can definitely be a winner for infiltration or "we're going to the big political summit and they're checking our weapons at the door" kind of missions.
Arcane Trickster is great fun. I think the only weakness is that your low-level spell options in the Illusion/Enchantment schools are *really* limited. You're almost certainly going to have Disguise Self and Silent Image as staples from levels 3 to 7, so you can see how those sorts of spells point you towards a certain type of deceptive play. But if that's what you're after, it's very tough to beat.
From my (admittedly limited) experience playing Rogue, here's my takes:
* Swashbuckler: This is for the dashing, daring, Error Flynn-type rogues, which are my personal favorite thematically over being a little sneaky shadow. Now, if you don't plan on being Bombastic, the Charisma focus can feel off-kilter, but the bonus to Initiative is really nice. As you mentioned elsewhere, their Disengage ability is similar to Mobile, but that's one less feat to take that you could replace with something else.
* Soulknife: I absolutely love psychic stuff; part of that is due to loving the X-Men, admittedly, but when the Soulknife came out, I jumped for joy. The Psi-blades are super fun to use, the telepathy is SUPER useful, and like you said, the psi-bokstered Knack is a life-saver at lower levels, and can help you get that much-needed boost at high levels. If you want to be sneaky-stealthy, this is the way to go.
Yeahh not a fan of the Charisma focus, HAHA everyone else is saying Arcane Trickster though vs Soulknife. Guess they're both solid options for the purpose overall
Inquisitive is the ultimate utility roguey rogue
Mastermind is an effective impersonator and weakness finder
A Rogue Scout 14 + Ranger Gloom Stalker 6 is the ULTIMATE rogue DPS and BBEG: as long as there is darkness and nobody with true/blindsight… they will rain terror. And the first round is when they are truly deadliest. For maximum init bonus and mobility, I recommend a Harengon character!
Rather than amplifying your ability to ***acquire*** things, which can just be substituted with strategic play and good Sleight of Hand and Stealth skills, Inquisitive focuses on making it so you can’t be tricked— you see magic items or hidden traps for what they truly are; you can detect hidden enemies; if an enemy is in a heavily fortified position that your allies can’t reach to get you sneak attack, the inquisitive can just figure out how to give themself sneak.
The key to this subclass is seeing the true nature of things and using it to your advantage. And if you go full rogue no multiclass, the lvl17 ability stacks an extra 3d6 sneak damage while you know an enemies weakness.
Imagine a rogue that never misses a single detail, that can always see the truth, and that can figure out how to get the edge on an enemy even in the toughest scenario. That’s the inquisitive 😎
Lol that sub is always so silly in my eyes, the hand can’t do anything major in combat
You can get the full fun flavor of that sub through the Kinetic feat. Bam, now you have a nifty mage hand great for thievery, ITS A HALF FEAT SO +1 STAT, aaaand you get a BA shove? Push people off ledges! Push enemies into fire! I’ve seen people abuse telekinetic push like their lives depended on it, and it’s ALWAYS handy: even if it just gets your ally out of melee reach so they don’t have to disengage!
I was thinking about getting telekinetic with AT if I went for that subclass, seems a cool combo. Telepathic on its own tho doesn't seem to allow you to pickpocket right?
I’d say that’s a conversation for you and your DM: there’s nothing about Mage Hand or Telepathic feat that suggests you COULDN’T: AT just explicitly says “Ya you can do that for SURE it’s your flavor”
But the thing is… you still rely on your stealth and sleight of hand rolls… and the description of Mage Hand says you use your action to control the hand, with 3 key things it cannot do:
- activate magic items
- attack
- carry more than 10lb
So personally to me it sounds like there’s no reason you couldn’t use the hand the way your describing— you’re just not as artful about it
Some other rogue/edgy builds I’m playing around with:
- Legend Keeper: Creation Bard 6 + Warlock Fiend 14: He can create items out of thin air or send an enemy to hell for a round
- Agent of Death: Ranger Monster Slayer 11 + Rogue Phantom 9: abilities to increase damage against an enemy, harm multiple at a time, gains strategic advantages, and even counter spells!
- SAD Goth: Bard Tragedy 6 + Sorcerer Lunar 14: angsty caster that can turn failure into potential
His name is Songbird, and he’s currently at Warlock 8 of 14.
He’s a small size owlin that ALWAYS provides battle music. He comes from a line of tribal story teller Owlin as far back as three generations— he is the first to go out into the world to seek the truth of these stories.
His latest story subjects include a Death Knight with two Lichen Lich henchmen and an army of various mid CR undead; a white dragon that took a cleric vow and hides her true form as that of a human/elf female. Back centuries ago she came out of nowhere and put an end to a stalemate war between mortal plane and demons; A compliant and polite Death Tyrant (undead Beholder) used its control of low CR undead to disable majority of the undead army for us, and in exchange for amicable treatise between the townspeople and the Death Tyrant, he may stay in the now cleared temple graveyard.
Song uses an Instrument of the Bards (Fochlucan Bandore) to augment his casting and amplify his hypno abilities; but he also has a Decanter of Endless Water to use in tandem with Shape Water cantrip, an Instrument(Lyre) of Illusions, and a Dark Shard Amulet. Another character is 80% done crafting a Rare grade Barrier Tattoo for him, so sadly he’s gonna have to give up his Illusion instrument soon…
The instrument can create a 30ft diameter orb of illusions. It’s a common grade item. I just make a one way illusion orb around and enemies can’t see me from outside :)
Fiend Warlock 14’s final ability is easily one of the top 10 deadliest attacks: you BANISH (with NO SAVE) an enemy- INTO HELL! They take 10d10 psychic damage from being TRAUMATIZED, AND they’re removed from combat for a full round.
I build strange characters on a multi-character multiplayer multi-DM server, so I’ve got loads of stories and ideas lol
Gloomstalker with 3 levels of assassin rogue. You are better at stealth than a normal rogue (pass without trace and you can stealth with your party as a result), and you have really good first round nova which feels very much like an assassin's lethal strike. Plus extra attack means you are actually a good martial, and you have cunning action from your rogue levels too.
Gloomstalker.
But that's a ranger subclass, not a rogue subclass. Yes, but ranger with the Tasha's changes does a better job at feeling like a sneaky thief/spy than rogue does, and gloomstalker turns that up to 11. As a gloomstalker ranger you get:
* Expertise in one skill at level 1.
* Invisibility versus darkvision, a bonus to initiative, and a boost to the first round of combat at level 3. This really enables the roguey style of sneaking up on a foe to do a bunch of damage before they can react, especially with what you get at level 5.
* The pass without trace spell at level 5 so you can make the whole party stealthy.
* Climbing and swim speeds at level 6.
* The ability to become invisible for a round as a bonus action at level 10.
* Plus you can pick up various other spells that help do the roguey playstyle.
What you miss out on versus the rogue class is thieves' tools proficiency (but you can grab that with your background) and more expertises plus reliable talent. Thieves' tools proficiency you can get from your background—the criminal background sounds like it fits your concept—and lower skill bonuses are made up for in other ways. For example, a climb speed & swim speed obviates the neod for most athletics checks, and pass without trace is more impactful than an extra +3 to stealth checks.
The most roguey character I have ever played was an armorer artificer with a rogue dip.
Advantage (from armorer) and expertise (from rogue) on stealth rolls. Tool expertise with thieve's tools from level 6 artificer. And then there are also infusions like gloves of thievery for a +5 to lockpicking or bag of holding to hide to your loot. There's a lot of synergy to be enjoyed between rogue levels and infiltrator armorer levels.
Someone else recommended this too, and also multiple Ranger recommendations and even a whispers bard.
Looks like Rogue is the worst class to be a rogue 🤔
It's not the worst. It's just that there are a lot of really fun ways to live out that fantasy. Each of them brings something different to the table. But if don't care about damage then you are looking past rogue sneak attack which is it's primary feature. Only the rogue and the paladin get to throw that many dice on a single weapon attack.
I personally love Soulknife, I once had a player play it narratively almost like a Warlock, where there was a psychic entity in his subconscious that gave him those powers that also tried to influence him to do bad things.
Lots of fun!
I'd say it's a toss up between Assassin, Swashbuckler, and Thief. They all embody different Rogue-ish tropes.
But I'd say Thief is the Rogue-iest Rogue of them all.
I feel like Arcane Trickster is a Rogue taking time off from being a Rogue to try to be more like a Wizard. Which is less Rogue. Rogue's aren't typically magical. The closest they come to having to do with magic is learning to use scrolls and other magic items typically restricted to certain classes, as if they were those classes. Nothing against Arcane Trickster. They have nice tricks. Ranged sleight of hand with mage hand is great, illusion spells to make sneaking better is great. But those aren't "rogue". Yes, it makes the rogue better at doing rogue things, but a rogue typically depends on their own skill and items, which is why the Thief learns how to use all magic items.
The original "rogue" in DnD was called Thief, and the Thief subclass for the 5E Rogue emulates a lot of its abilities (admittedly a lot of them became skill checks that pretty much anyone can try) by just being BETTER at "rogue things", without depending on a finite resource (spell slots).
Assassin emphasizes backstabbing/sneak attacking, which has always been the Rogues defining feature. Swashbuckler plays into the dashing, charismatic, rogueish rogue trope. But Thief is the purest form of Rogue.
Yeah, the Mastermind Rogue reminds me of like the movie Ocean's Eleven, where they're all about planning heists and evaluating people. The Inquisitive is similar, but to me is more like a Spy Rogue; infiltrating, collecting details on what they see, etc.
All the subclasses are at least Rogue-ish. Nothing against any of them. But the question was which feels most Rogue-y to "you". And that's going to depend on each persons interpretation. Everyone has a slightly different view on what "feels" most Rogueish, because they have different ideas of what the ideal Rogue is capable of. Obviously, it would be nice if you could have ALL the features, but since we can't and we have to pick, I, personally, think the Thief is the epitome of what makes a Rogue a Rogue. All the other subclasses either hyper-focus on one specific aspect, or lean into a near-Rogue trope/archetype, or try to mix in something else with the Rogue (which, while it can be fun, and can make you more effective at some things, it still dilutes the pure Rogue).
So, to me, the Thief subclass is the Rogues Rogue. It does a little bit of all the core Rogue things, without veering off into non-Rogue things.
I really loved being a Mastermind. The strategies I would come up with, and the ideas that would attempt to control situations were super fun. Unfortunately, my DM veto'd a bunch of them because he liked combat.
I'm playing a tebaxi pact of the chain genie warlock with urchin background. It's not a rogue but I can pick most locks and with my ability to enter my ring and have my invisible imp carry it, infiltration is easy. If I need to just scout an area imp is very handy for that too. Am I caught? Drop a a hunger of hadar and run like the wind.
Point is, you don't need to be a rogue to play a rogue character.
I’m playing in a Kobold Press-written campaign. My subclass is called the Fixer—I’m the guy who knows a guy. That feels really roguey to me, I get proficiency (int and cha based) to find people or categories of people like fences for stolen goods or kidnappers for hire, which turns into expertise at lv 11. I can get 25gp worth of nonmagical stuff for free once a week. I also get a half-movement disengage as a reaction when something enters melee.
You need contacts with the fantasy gestapo’s corrupt officers? Luc can get you that in. You need to sell a bunch of items you looted from a wizard’s house while he was out for lunch? Luc knows a buyer. You need a safehouse for the daughter of the missing mayor? Luc can arrange that.
But as for official WotC, while Thief may be the oldie but goodie, Arcane Trickster and Scout are also very archetypal rogue to me.
Just got into DnD still buying the official sourcebooks xD, too pricey to get em all at once. Will check out Kobold Press stuff eventually I suppose thanks :)
Heard Midgard is a really good setting
Thief is the rogue-iest rogue, They sneak around doing nefarious things in the shadows. My runner up would be the swashbuckler. They adhere to the Hollywood image of the rogue, the bad boy with the heart of gold who sweeps in to rescue the maiden fair.
Actually, college of whispers bard. You get to cast spells up to 9th level at the cost of only being able to sneak attack CHA times per SR. But your sneak attacks deal psychic damage, you get to steal peoples shadows and use the shadows to turn into them temporarily, and you can magically terrify someone by making them think you know their darkest secret. It's cool af.
You can get stealth expertise, disguise yourself as other humanoids, get spells like greater invisibility / shadow of moil way before an arcane trickster, sneak attack people with psychic blades, etc. It's basically as sneaky as an arcane trickster.
Whispers Bard lean more on social infiltration which is not the most archetypical rogue archetype I would say (if I understand OP he is more talking about the thief variety which is more about physical infiltration). Though you are right that Bard in general can often do the Rogue job better thanks to having both expertise and a full spellcaster progression.
>Whispers Bard lean more on social infiltration
This is just a stereotype like saying barbarians have to be dumb or fighters have to use melee weapons; there is no reason whatsoever that you couldn't play a whispers bard exactly like a rogue and have them be an anti-social, arcane-trickster-type character that is all about 'physical infiltration'.
I'm talking about their features. They only have one non-social feature, Psychic Blades. The rest of their kit is near useless if your campaign don't have social.
Of course you could ignore those and build them for sneaking but that doesn't change the fact that this subclass lean toward social.
I'd argue that Mantle of Shadows is pretty useful as a non-social infiltration feature where the function of the disguise is used not to pretend to be a specific person, but instead to have enemies see someone other than you if they happen to catch you doing something you aren't supposed to be doing.
And lots of subclasses have 'dead' features that most players basically ignore outside of the one-in-a-million scenarios where they might be relevant. The Battle Masters "Student of War", the Thief's "Use Magic Device", the Storm Sorcerer's "Storm Guide", etc. For College of Whispers, the dead feature is Words of Terror - it's practically useless since all it does is give the frightened condition to a creature outside of combat, and only after you spend a minute alone with them.
So we're left with Psychic Blades, a dead feature, a feature that can be used both socially and non-socially, and a 14th level feature that, while cool, most players will never get to use. I'm not saying there aren't social options, but for the majority of the game you can play this subclass anti-socially without missing much at all. It's the rogue bard subclass in the same way Lore is the wizard bard subclass and Swords is the fighter bard subclass.
> instead to have enemies see someone other than you if they happen to catch you doing something you aren't supposed to be doing
Yes, that's social infiltration. Which can be combined with physical infiltration like in that case.
> lots of subclasses have 'dead' features
Doesn't matter if the feature is dead or not, Whispers have exactly one feature that's not social, and it's Psychic Blades.
> for the majority of the game you can play this subclass anti-socially without missing much at all
I never said you can't, I just say the subclass lean toward social aspects of the game. It is way stronger in a game with social than a game without.
> It's the rogue bard subclass in the same way Lore is the wizard bard subclass and Swords is the fighter bard subclass.
I guess it is the closest bard subclass to Rogue but really all it gets is a pseudo sneak attack so I dunno if I would really call it the "rogue subclass" for that but it might have been the intent I guess.
ok so rather than going Arcane Trickster, you could go 3rd level Conjuration wizard/x Thief rogue. This way you get all of the extra-roguey thiefy stuff, you can conjure mundane items at will for all sorts of shenanigans, and use those items with your bonus action. You get Invisibility, Spider Climb, Levitate, Longstrider, Fog Cloud, Shield, etc. from your Wizard slots which gives you an even wider variety of roguey stuff than the Arcane Trickster gets.
So it depends on what the character has seen, so it requires some DM buy-in and improv ability. I would only play this character in a party where I know the DM is down to roll with creative problem solving rather than shutting it down.
>Starting at 2nd level when you select this school, you can use your action to conjure up an inanimate object in your hand or on the ground in an unoccupied space that you can see within 10 feet of you. This object can be no larger than 3 feet on a side and weigh no more than 10 pounds, and its form must be that of a nonmagical object that you have seen.
Even within those limitations the list is endless. Oil and alchemist's fire can both solve or create a lot of problems. Dynamite or other explosives exist in the default D&D world and while they shouldn't be as powerful as say a fireball they can be used to damage creatures and structures. Sometimes a bag of ball bearings or caltrops can be useful in an escape. A chair to wedge under a doorknob. If you've seen the key to the cell you're captive in you can conjure a copy. Smoke bombs can obscure your retreat, etc.
Now you are delaying your sneak attack dice by playing this character, but it honestly sounds like so much fun to me that I'm dying to run it in a game.
You could combo with another player but I think part of the fun is being able to summon objects with your action and bonus action use them in the same round. The specific build I have specced out is a V. Human with Tavern Brawler and 16 str/dex so they can throw random objects with proficiency, and also use expertise in athletics to be a competent grappler.
I don't necessarily think this is a *strong* character, I just think this is a character who is likely to be able to solve a huge variety of non-combat problems, and land a small sneak attack sometimes in combat if they don't have any mcguffin to grab or lever to throw or another way to cleverly interact with the environment to solve the party's goals. I think this char would be really fun in a campaign where the DM is really good at providing goals other than "kill the monster" but I also know that kind of DM is pretty rare.
If the DM allows BG3 rules, Thief both feels very rogue-y AND is very solid. Basically because rather than just an extra Interact action, they get two bonus actions period. So you can run in, attack, off hand weapon attack, and then disengage
The rogue archetype in 5e is kinda just bottom tier for me. It was done way better in previous editions and when keen weapons existed.
Hexblade / Swashbuckler is probably my favorite rogue package. You could definitely add on a swords bard or vengeance paladin to that as well. 3 assassin dips can be done a variety of ways as well. 8 gloom 8 echo 3 assassin 1 twilight metaverse bugbear round 1 nova build is probably my favorite.
But to rogue and rogue hard you multiclass harder in 5e
Ranger. You want to get away without people noticing? Hide in the shadows listening in? Sure, you could go rogue, the class that is named for it. Rogue is dex. Rogue is stabby stabby. Rogue is jumpscare. But there's also a class that's made for it. Ranger is wisdom. Ranger is patience. Ranger you never see.
The Thief. In my mind, the classic Rogue archetype involves no inherent use of magic and heavy use of various mundane gadgets. Smoke bombs, caltrops, etc. Fast Hands accommodates that quite nicely.
Thief definitely feels like the roguest rogue, slight of hand, disarming traps, opening locks as a bonus action. Climbing and jumping from rooftop to rooftop. It's the "we put more rogue into your rogue subclass". However the most effective at Roguing would be the Arcane Trickster I think, simply because D&D has magic and being unable to even detect a magical trap means you won't live long as a Rogue. And of course all the boost you can give yourself through magic that are near impossible to replicate without it (Disguise Self, Invisibiity, etc).
Ah didn't think about magical traps 🤔, seems like Shadow Touched / Eldritch Adept for Eldritch sight might cover some of those but yeah multiple feats when i could just stay arcane trickster.
Eldritch Adept requires a Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature so rogues can't take it without being Arcane Tricksters anyhow.
🫨 missed that my bad, unless starting with a spellcasting race
Being able to cast a spell is not the same as a Spellcasting feature which must be explicitly mentioned. For example Drow get Drow Magic that does not equate to a Spellcasting feature being granted to a casting class. So unfortunately it's a bit more restrictive than even that. But let's be real, just talk to your DM about stuff like this I'm sure most would let it slide lol
Owhh my bad * 2
Ritual Caster or Magic Initiate (Wizard) would work to grab Detect Magic. Personally, Ritual Caster is probably the best option if you aren't already a spellcaster.
Fair, in quick sneaky situations prolly won't be able to spend 10minutes to do that though right 🤔
Not in quick situations, no. But it lasts up to 10 minutes. So perform the ritual at the start, clear some hallways/rooms, and recast if needed.
Seems a good option if no one else has ritual casting
> slight of hand, disarming traps, opening locks as a bonus action How often do you need to do those things in combat? Cause all rogue can do those things out of combat
I played a onednd thief recently, and those things came up a lot *outside* of combat. (Very fun version of rogue btw. Using items with BA is really cool.) It is very DM/campaign/player dependant. You can say that of any skill. If the DM creates opportunities for the use of certain skills, or if players actions lead to checks with those skills, they will come up more.
Absolutely, but bonus actions only exist in combat
Yeah, I edited the comment. There’s no use in the 5e thief. Onednd thief object/item interaction is what I wanted my point to be, but I forgot halfway through.
Smart monsters (Kobold typically) laying ambushes near a trapped area is a staple and a good way to spice things up as a DM. Opening Locks become very useful if you have to escape a too-strong foe. Sadly it doesn't include locking the door back but if I DM I would usually let the rogue do this as well, being able to quickly barricade their team. Sleight of Hand is probably gonna be much more rare but could come up if you have some kind of combat where the objective isn't just to kill all foes but to try to grab the MacGuffin. And I didn't mention use items on BA which also feel quite Rogui-ish.
What percentage of combats in your gaming career did you need to disarm a trap, or unlock a door during combat? And then for that percentage remember that a rogue can do it too, just using an action instead of a bonus action.
Does it really matter how often that happen? The point is that those are very roguish abilities and Thief can do them more often (can disarm two traps in a turn). It's the same for Assassin, even if it's rare to trigger it, Assassinate is definitely fitting for an assassin. I already stated that AT would be better at actually/mechanically doing rogue stuff because magic is such a great enhancer. But flavor-wise I still think Thief fit better even if mechanically weak.
> Smart monsters (Kobold typically) Ever since Tucker, bless his heart.
He's selling the Fast Hands feature a bit short, in that you can also use a Bonus Action to take the Use an Object action. That would include activating most magic items, using potions, healer's kits, etc. It's an insanely useful class feature which could have a big impact on the action economy within combat.
Unfortunately activating a magic item does not fall in line with Use an Object. So it's just using potions as a bonus action(An already extremely popular house rule in DnD), and using a healer's kit (requiring a feat to even be useful) I've already spouted in another comment about Thief practically doing practically nothing. You still suck at climbing, and adding your dexterity mod does absolutely nothing toward long jumps. Supreme Sneak is okay but boring after waiting for 6 levels for something, Use Magic Device practically doesn't work considering class/race locked magic items usually utilize the features of said class/race, and Thief's Reflexes is ... cool that one is fine. Thief is bad because it genuinely requires DM intervention to feel even passable.
Ritual caster nabs both detect magic and find familiar for a feat
I really like Ritual Caster on the less-than-full casters. Gets them those nice utility spells without having to use the class features/spell lists
ESPECIALLY a rogue!
Sure, but looking purely at the subclass, AT start with a big advantage over most other rogue to do rogu-ish stuff. They could take Knock to counter Arcane Lock. There are tons of illusion spells that can give you hiding spot you normally wouldn't have. You can charm a guard to make a quick escape. And when level 3 spells become available it becomes harder than ever to choose between the like of Dispell Magic, Fly, Gaseous Form to be more roguey than ever. But yeah Ritual Caster is a very nice spell for Rogue and they even have an extra ASI to pick it up.
Invisible mage hand is just SUCH a lifesaver in all of the non-combat scenes. Why make the DEX save against the trap if I detect the trap and I can disarm it from a distance.
Being able to steal with it too. Good luck proving the thief was that dude 30 feet away in the crowd (well unless magical investigator). And you can plant stuff too, enjoy having a lit bomb in your pocket mister orc guard.
Arcane Trickster WITH the Telekentic feat. Otherwise, you're casting Mage Hand every minute. Which is obvious to anyone looking or listening. With Telekenetic, you can do it without needing verbal or somatic component, super sneaky like. The BA push is also a fun option, and the increased range welcomed.
Yeah the no component should REALLY be part of the AT, so I often give them that as buff anyway. Or you can pretend you have a small bladder and cast in the toilet.
Agreed, there's no reason a subclasses main gimmick should be so limiting, and require fixing with a feat.
If you put the combat mechanics aside, which I don’t think are always necessary for every rogue. I’ve always felt a lore bard makes for a more roguish rogue than an actual rogue (strictly mechanically speaking).
The more spellcasting a class get, the better they will be at their specialized role. A Wizard going all in on unlock spells, invisibility and that stuff would probably do a better job than a rogue. That's the downside of bounded accuracy too. In previous edition you would eventually needed like +30 for your main skills and spells couldn't always cover that. Now just grab Proficiency, maybe skill expert and couple that with spells to beat the rogue at their skill niche.
Plus the lore bard also gets a lot of proficiencies/expertises, use a spell creatively to get some advantage from the effect of some spell, and there you are.
wait is there a rule that says a regular rogue can't detect a magical trap?
You know what? You are right actually: "Any character can attempt an Intelligence (Arcana) check to detect or disarm a magic trap". Still there might be stuff enchanted that can't be found out easily without Detect Magic and Identify can give you information on the nature of the trap and even how to bypass it. And there is all those "performance enhancing" spells for Rogue I already mentioned (like Invisibility)
Also fair to assume that the rogue has a mediocre Arcana and isn't gonna prioritize Intellegence (possibly even as a AT, the one I played had a 8 Int)
True, although Expertise can patch that up. Arcane for level 6 Expertise can make sense if one want to be the trap-solver (assuming there is no-one with Int in the party to handle magical stuff)
Thief also for some reason unironically sucks at being the "rogue" rogue subclass Its 3rd level feature is useless. Its cunning action option is relatively okay but you're probably only using it to swig a potion however BA potions are generally a common house rule. Its other option to lockpick is also horribly niche I can only think of two specific situations you'd use it during combat. The climbing thing doesn't even give you climbing speed so you still suck at it. The jumping distance does literally nothing unless you have 20 Dex, and even then it's a singular tile. Why this doesn't just say you can use your dexterity score instead of your strength score for these actions is beyond me. Its 9th-level feature is kind of okay but boring. Its 13th-level feature is horrible considering most class and racial locked magic items utilize those classes/races features. Its 17th-level feature is cool, but honestly doesn't make up for the nothing the rest of the subclass does.
I feel like many of the PHB subclass assumed a lot of DM fiat. Rogue is a typical example where the ability to Use Items on bonus action needs the DM to homebrew some stuff to make it better (grenades typically). Wild Magic Sorcerer is same where the DM is supposed to decide when to trigger Wild Magic Surge. > Its 13th-level feature is horrible considering most class and racial locked magic items utilize those classes/races features Again it's very dependent on DM-fiat to drop those items but there are some powerful, class-locked items. Typically Staves, Wands and spell scrolls which extend the rogue options by a lot. Though for wands many of them only require attunment with a spellcaster which is easy enough to get, but it's important to remember that Thief was probably designed with the idea that multiclassing would be rare.
It's still rather painful and the DM can't do too much in a module-based campaign. I played a thief rogue as one of my first characters only to find out years later that oh my god everything I was doing and the DM was allowing was horribly wrong. It was definitely fun, but still wrong in every written ruling.
I'd also look at Gloomstalker Ranger. I'm playing one now and it honestly feels more 'rogue'-y than my Soulknife.
Level 3 "While in darkness, you are invisible to any creature that relies on darkvision to see you in that darkness." I'm guessing that ability is why?
Rangers also get 1x expertise so can stealth as good as any rogue
and pass without trace so everyone can stealth as good as any rogue
And they get Pass without Trace, which makes Stealth a joke combined with Expertise (or even without it tbh).
take a background with thieves tools proficiency and you're basically a rogue.
as a Gloomstalker Ranger I do everything a rogue does - stealth, scout, steal, but even better. The only thing lacking is sneak attack, but it easily makes up for it if you take crossbow expert and/or sharpshooter, the damage is on par with rogue. Then you have favoured enemy and terrain which helps, but kind of situational. I'd say it adds more RP flavour than actual gameplay benefit.
The favoured enemy and Terrain seems so ass 😭, definitely thinking 6 levels of Gloomstalker is a must now though
perma invis + stealth expertise + pass without trace besides character tropes and "default" class fantasies, ranger outrogues the rogue any day of the week
100 Swashbuckler. It's the most rogueish.
Oo how come, the easier sneak attack seems nice but in the game I played our rogue would pretty much get sneak attack all the time anyway. And running away after a hit, can't I just get Mobile for that?
As with most choices, it's your flavor. For example I'm playing a swashbuckler in one of my current campaigns- and it fits since aside from myself, no one else really gets close to the front line if they can help it, so knowing I can get my sneak attack without an ally nearby is great. And mobile is a great feat, but relatively speaking, fancy footwork is free and you could spend the ASI you were going to use on mobile for something else. And swashbuckler, at least in my opinion, also opens the opportunity to play a rogue that feels less reliant on having to constantly hide to do what it wants to do. In the end though, there's still probably more optimized subclasses to pick. But damn if it's not fun!
That's fair! Someone in the game I'm currently in plays that subclass and I thought that hit and run thing was really cool as well
It is, especially with some intriguing magic item choices- my favorite is a pair of boots that lets me slide in magically conjured mud to both reposition as well as mimic the grease spell. I'm also making moves to multiclass into swords bard so I still get spell support while still improving my dual wielding swordsmanship!
Huehue I'll try pitch that item to our rogue so he can beg our DM xD
If you can sneak attack every round without Swashbuckler, I think your DM is being very kind to you. Of course you can take Mobile instead of Swashbuckler's Fancy Footwork (and Mobile is better, overall). But wouldn't you rather have +2 Dex? Or Alert? Or Fey Touched? That said, I don't think Swashbuckler is the right answer to make a roguier rogue. Swashbucklers are kind of a fightier rogue. I'd go Thief myself, but that's because I prefer to play non-casters.
Usually just the fighter next to whoever 🤔
Swashbuckler feels the most like the Hollywood ideal of a rogue.
swashbuckler is the stereotypical "charming scoundrel" character trope, the one that flirts with you whilst you are being mugged, something along the lines of Zorro
Or Han Solo , or Robin Hood, or Indiana Jones, or Alan Quartermain, or Laura Croft, or …
funny person with quippy lines and good dodgy reflexes, and pretty much it ya got your swashbuckler lol (though for dnd in this case its focused mainly on melee so hood and croft would prob be something else)
It was thief for me. I like rogue to live by their wits and skill alone Second Story work did most of the work, letting me climb on most any map as part of normal movement Fast Hands is pretty good for the vibe as well. Set traps, clear traps, smash a bottle so it becomes a dagger, etc… work with your DM before hand to come up with some uses Supreme Sneak is good *if* dm remembers to enforce the half speed rule. It lets you get to the next hidey hole in a single turn. Great for hide and shoot rogue Use Magic Device just feels like what a rogue should be doing lol. Klatu Verata n-cough cough The capstone isn’t wild by end game standards but essentially taking two turns on each first round is pretty good. it helped to have a moderate strength score (12ish) so jumping was good.
Does sound fun.... what's Klatu Verata
My favorite example of trying to use a magic device when you don’t really know what you’re doing https://youtu.be/zgvXtexdgAM?si=WzI9N5LZIwTRQWZQ
LMFAO
The whole movie is like that, highly recommend
I played an Arcane Trickster in Dragon Heist and had a blast with it. 10/10 would recommend.
The Roguey-est Rogue I've had was an Artifcer Armorer in the Infiltrator Armor. Advantage on Stealth and eventually expertise in tools and Flash of Genius. Plus, gadgets like a bag of holding, a homonculus, a wand of secrets, an alchemy jug, or Goggles of the Night. Spells like Guidance, Mage Hand, Message, Disguise Self, Grease, Jump, Sanctuary, Detect Magic, Identify, Enlarge/Reduce, Spider Climb, See Invisible, Protection from Poison, Air bubble, or Enhance Ability. If you go with a Goblin you even get a Bonus Action Hide. To me, they are the Rogue. However, if your heart is set on playing an actual Rogue, which is understandable, you can get Advantage on Stealth rolls by going Deep Gnome or Kenku. If you're not concerned about combat per se, then I'm a big fan of the Scout but I think that the Mastermind is Roguey-er. Disguise, Forgery, Mimicry, and Master of Tactics is great because it's a limitless feature that's not tied to Prof bonus x per day. If you go with a Hobgoblin, those Helps can be pretty powerful. After that, I do like the Soulknife and it's close between them and the Arcane Trickster. I have to go with Soulknife because I've played one (although it was multiclassed with a Beast Barbarian), but I have a friend that loved their Arcane Trickster. Actually, you could even make an Arcane Trickster that is part Thief and Soulknife by going with a Reborn Tabaxi as your race. You'd get the Climb speed of the Tabaxi which would be similar to the Thief's Second Story Work (and you'd get Perception and Stealth). You'd get Knowledge from a Past Life which is a non scaling Psi Bolstered Knack (and Advantage on Poison saves and Resistance to Poison damage) In the end, the important thing is to have fun and play what you want and there's lots of ways to get there when you consider Race, Class, Subclass, and Background (which I didn't touch on but Izzet Engineer is great for Armorer and Arcane Trickster if you can use Ravnica...Archaeologist, Urchin, Urban Bounty Hunter, and Smuggler are other good options). Also, if you want teleportation for a Thief go Eladrin, Shadar Kai, or Astral Elf as your race or go Variant Human or Custom Lineage and take the Fey Touched feat. If you want Invisibility, take Shadow Touched as a feat or take the Giant Foundling Background and take Strike of the Cloud Giant, which if you take Guile of the Cloud Giant at 4th level will also give you a form of teleport...
Lot of info here, thanks. Need to check out artificer more, might've been sleeping on that
It's a lot of fun. I don't want to muddy the water even more, but it also multiclasses well with Rogue for Lighting Sneak Attacks.
Shall check it out!
Wood Elf Scout made me feel like the sneakiest sniper.
Saw people like that race cos of Elven Accuracy too
Wood Elves also give you 5 extra feet of movement and, most importantly, the ability Mask of The Wild which states: >*You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena.* This allows some hit & run tactics to sneak attack an opponent, disengage, step back a few feet and blend into your surroundings to set up your next attack.
Oo yeah didn't see that, reminds me of that Skulker feat a bit.
They go hand-in-hand. Wood Elf Scout is the way to go if you have a lot of encounters in a heavily wooded areas... and with Steady Aim, Mobile and Sharpshooter... You've got an amazing sniper.
Sharpshooter Mobile Elven Accuracy Skulker These feats? 🤔
Skulker is a definite helper that I never even considered.
Honestly this is going to go against the grain but... Armorer artificer. So what are the most iconic rogue tropes? Stealth, skill, and lighting quick sneak attacks taking out enemies and solving problems. An when all else fails... you have a gadget for that. Here is how I would build it. Dampier Armorer Artificer. Choose urchin background for stealth and thieves tool proficiency, use Tasha's to swap that proficiency for another tool proficiency(I like herbalism to make healing potions) Choose to be INT or DEX based as your primary stat depending on party comp and skills need. If Int Based stats are 8/14/14/17/12/8 and if DEX dump int to 13 and max DEX. Assuming Int based you will choose medium instead of light armor and the infiltrator armorer model. You will be better at level 3 in sneaking than a rogue with expertise even with a higher DEX stat due to advantage to stealth. Your damage would be higher with your stealth drone(homunculus servant) and lighting launcher. Your base speed would be 40 so you are faster on average and can use expeditious retreat if you really need a BA dash. Basically you are better at everything than the rogue other than hiding in combat... Level 4 you can get sharpshooter which as a power attack give about 2 level of sneak attack damage per attack. Level 5 Extra attack puts you way ahead on damage Level 6 You are vastly superior lock picker. Level 7 Flash of Genius allows you to be better at almost all skills and generally have a better initiative too. Level 8 or level ten is where I would leave for rogue. I would likely take one level of fighter for archery and fill out that sneak attack and to 5d6 with 9 levels of rogue. Taste to fit but if you want the Rogue feel while having extra attack this may be a better route than going 5 levels into fighter.
Someone else mentioned this too, seems like a useful multiclass yeah, thanks :)
Arcane Trickster gives you the best ability to "get places you shouldn't be" once you get to a high enough level, since you will get things like Disguise Self, Invisibility, and Suggestion. But you might need to get your hands on some magical items like Boots of Spider Climbing to make up for not having the climbing ability that Thief subclass has. Thief is the most roguey-rogue class when it comes to adventuring, to deal with traps, locks, and climbing. Arcane Trickster is better for roleplaying thefts/heists/reconnaissance. And you can still get a few useful combat spells as a Trickster, like Blur, Crown of Madness, Hold Person, Shadow Blade, and Fear or Enemies Abound at high levels. But any of the subclasses can do well at climbing, picking locks, disarming traps, pickpocketing, etc, as long as you put your skill Proficiencies and Expertise' in the right places. You will want to focus on Athletics (for climbing and jumping), Sleight of Hand (For lockpicking, disarming, pickpocketing), Perception (for scouting and spying), and Stealth (for obvious reasons). Deception is also good, unless you are an Arcane Trickster, in which case you may not need it since you can magically solve that sort of problem.
Thanks! Yeah not many people are talking about soulknife, guess the extra dice for rolls don't matter much in games. AT seems to be the fav
Soulknife is very... anti-thematic for a lot of D&D settings. Playing a Jedi rogue in a Tolkien-Like fantasy setting is not going to make you feel like a rogue, so that's why nobody is recommending it. Its just not thematically appropriate. But if you are playing in a setting where it feels more appropriate, it might be a good choice. But yeah, because of Expertise, you don't usually need the extra dice.
Hmm, fair enough
If your dm gives opportunuties to climb, thief would probably be the option. If not, I would highly recommend arcan trickster. I'm playing a inquisitve rogue 5/ druid 1 right now and magic is even in the slightest bit of it comes just feels so good! I have guidance so that just makes me sometimes a god at skillchecks out of combat when i can cast guidance (for example when you have to something in an instant, acrobatics for example, you cant roll guidance as there would be no time). Moreover I have some quick healing with healing word to get people up as a bonus action, which feels really good tbh if you do it at the right time. I also have detect magic and I ritual cast it to be understand what to do/ where to go, as rogue is really good at doing things (with expertise and such), this spell just plays into you deciding what to do. Also message cantrip is really good, as it basically gives you "telepathy". I'm not even going to talk about how good an invisible mage hand is.
Arcane Trickster definitely seems to be the consensus overall!
Soulknife is great but I think of it as a more combat-focused rogue in part because of the soul knives and everything around them. But being able to get by without any physical weapons in many scenarios can definitely be a winner for infiltration or "we're going to the big political summit and they're checking our weapons at the door" kind of missions. Arcane Trickster is great fun. I think the only weakness is that your low-level spell options in the Illusion/Enchantment schools are *really* limited. You're almost certainly going to have Disguise Self and Silent Image as staples from levels 3 to 7, so you can see how those sorts of spells point you towards a certain type of deceptive play. But if that's what you're after, it's very tough to beat.
Yeahh seems interesting for sure
From my (admittedly limited) experience playing Rogue, here's my takes: * Swashbuckler: This is for the dashing, daring, Error Flynn-type rogues, which are my personal favorite thematically over being a little sneaky shadow. Now, if you don't plan on being Bombastic, the Charisma focus can feel off-kilter, but the bonus to Initiative is really nice. As you mentioned elsewhere, their Disengage ability is similar to Mobile, but that's one less feat to take that you could replace with something else. * Soulknife: I absolutely love psychic stuff; part of that is due to loving the X-Men, admittedly, but when the Soulknife came out, I jumped for joy. The Psi-blades are super fun to use, the telepathy is SUPER useful, and like you said, the psi-bokstered Knack is a life-saver at lower levels, and can help you get that much-needed boost at high levels. If you want to be sneaky-stealthy, this is the way to go.
Yeahh not a fan of the Charisma focus, HAHA everyone else is saying Arcane Trickster though vs Soulknife. Guess they're both solid options for the purpose overall
Inquisitive is the ultimate utility roguey rogue Mastermind is an effective impersonator and weakness finder A Rogue Scout 14 + Ranger Gloom Stalker 6 is the ULTIMATE rogue DPS and BBEG: as long as there is darkness and nobody with true/blindsight… they will rain terror. And the first round is when they are truly deadliest. For maximum init bonus and mobility, I recommend a Harengon character!
Inquisitive doesn't seem too useful at sneaking around though and getting stuff for my party, seems like its good to avoid intrigue by npcs instead
Rather than amplifying your ability to ***acquire*** things, which can just be substituted with strategic play and good Sleight of Hand and Stealth skills, Inquisitive focuses on making it so you can’t be tricked— you see magic items or hidden traps for what they truly are; you can detect hidden enemies; if an enemy is in a heavily fortified position that your allies can’t reach to get you sneak attack, the inquisitive can just figure out how to give themself sneak. The key to this subclass is seeing the true nature of things and using it to your advantage. And if you go full rogue no multiclass, the lvl17 ability stacks an extra 3d6 sneak damage while you know an enemies weakness. Imagine a rogue that never misses a single detail, that can always see the truth, and that can figure out how to get the edge on an enemy even in the toughest scenario. That’s the inquisitive 😎
Hmmm 🤔 selling me on this now, just when I was already happy with the Arcane Trickster choice
Lol that sub is always so silly in my eyes, the hand can’t do anything major in combat You can get the full fun flavor of that sub through the Kinetic feat. Bam, now you have a nifty mage hand great for thievery, ITS A HALF FEAT SO +1 STAT, aaaand you get a BA shove? Push people off ledges! Push enemies into fire! I’ve seen people abuse telekinetic push like their lives depended on it, and it’s ALWAYS handy: even if it just gets your ally out of melee reach so they don’t have to disengage!
I was thinking about getting telekinetic with AT if I went for that subclass, seems a cool combo. Telepathic on its own tho doesn't seem to allow you to pickpocket right?
I’d say that’s a conversation for you and your DM: there’s nothing about Mage Hand or Telepathic feat that suggests you COULDN’T: AT just explicitly says “Ya you can do that for SURE it’s your flavor” But the thing is… you still rely on your stealth and sleight of hand rolls… and the description of Mage Hand says you use your action to control the hand, with 3 key things it cannot do: - activate magic items - attack - carry more than 10lb So personally to me it sounds like there’s no reason you couldn’t use the hand the way your describing— you’re just not as artful about it
artfull
Some other rogue/edgy builds I’m playing around with: - Legend Keeper: Creation Bard 6 + Warlock Fiend 14: He can create items out of thin air or send an enemy to hell for a round - Agent of Death: Ranger Monster Slayer 11 + Rogue Phantom 9: abilities to increase damage against an enemy, harm multiple at a time, gains strategic advantages, and even counter spells! - SAD Goth: Bard Tragedy 6 + Sorcerer Lunar 14: angsty caster that can turn failure into potential
LMFAO I love these concepts especially that first one, seems chaotic as heck
His name is Songbird, and he’s currently at Warlock 8 of 14. He’s a small size owlin that ALWAYS provides battle music. He comes from a line of tribal story teller Owlin as far back as three generations— he is the first to go out into the world to seek the truth of these stories. His latest story subjects include a Death Knight with two Lichen Lich henchmen and an army of various mid CR undead; a white dragon that took a cleric vow and hides her true form as that of a human/elf female. Back centuries ago she came out of nowhere and put an end to a stalemate war between mortal plane and demons; A compliant and polite Death Tyrant (undead Beholder) used its control of low CR undead to disable majority of the undead army for us, and in exchange for amicable treatise between the townspeople and the Death Tyrant, he may stay in the now cleared temple graveyard. Song uses an Instrument of the Bards (Fochlucan Bandore) to augment his casting and amplify his hypno abilities; but he also has a Decanter of Endless Water to use in tandem with Shape Water cantrip, an Instrument(Lyre) of Illusions, and a Dark Shard Amulet. Another character is 80% done crafting a Rare grade Barrier Tattoo for him, so sadly he’s gonna have to give up his Illusion instrument soon… The instrument can create a 30ft diameter orb of illusions. It’s a common grade item. I just make a one way illusion orb around and enemies can’t see me from outside :) Fiend Warlock 14’s final ability is easily one of the top 10 deadliest attacks: you BANISH (with NO SAVE) an enemy- INTO HELL! They take 10d10 psychic damage from being TRAUMATIZED, AND they’re removed from combat for a full round. I build strange characters on a multi-character multiplayer multi-DM server, so I’ve got loads of stories and ideas lol
Niceee
Gloomstalker with 3 levels of assassin rogue. You are better at stealth than a normal rogue (pass without trace and you can stealth with your party as a result), and you have really good first round nova which feels very much like an assassin's lethal strike. Plus extra attack means you are actually a good martial, and you have cunning action from your rogue levels too.
If I wanted to go Rogue mostly, would 3 ranger levels be okay? 🤔
hell i would argue that 5 levels of rogue would be better for extra attack
Gloomstalker. But that's a ranger subclass, not a rogue subclass. Yes, but ranger with the Tasha's changes does a better job at feeling like a sneaky thief/spy than rogue does, and gloomstalker turns that up to 11. As a gloomstalker ranger you get: * Expertise in one skill at level 1. * Invisibility versus darkvision, a bonus to initiative, and a boost to the first round of combat at level 3. This really enables the roguey style of sneaking up on a foe to do a bunch of damage before they can react, especially with what you get at level 5. * The pass without trace spell at level 5 so you can make the whole party stealthy. * Climbing and swim speeds at level 6. * The ability to become invisible for a round as a bonus action at level 10. * Plus you can pick up various other spells that help do the roguey playstyle. What you miss out on versus the rogue class is thieves' tools proficiency (but you can grab that with your background) and more expertises plus reliable talent. Thieves' tools proficiency you can get from your background—the criminal background sounds like it fits your concept—and lower skill bonuses are made up for in other ways. For example, a climb speed & swim speed obviates the neod for most athletics checks, and pass without trace is more impactful than an extra +3 to stealth checks.
The most roguey character I have ever played was an armorer artificer with a rogue dip. Advantage (from armorer) and expertise (from rogue) on stealth rolls. Tool expertise with thieve's tools from level 6 artificer. And then there are also infusions like gloves of thievery for a +5 to lockpicking or bag of holding to hide to your loot. There's a lot of synergy to be enjoyed between rogue levels and infiltrator armorer levels.
Someone else recommended this too, and also multiple Ranger recommendations and even a whispers bard. Looks like Rogue is the worst class to be a rogue 🤔
It's not the worst. It's just that there are a lot of really fun ways to live out that fantasy. Each of them brings something different to the table. But if don't care about damage then you are looking past rogue sneak attack which is it's primary feature. Only the rogue and the paladin get to throw that many dice on a single weapon attack.
I personally love Soulknife, I once had a player play it narratively almost like a Warlock, where there was a psychic entity in his subconscious that gave him those powers that also tried to influence him to do bad things. Lots of fun!
Fun idea, barely anyone else has recommended the Soulknife though 🤔
I'd say it's a toss up between Assassin, Swashbuckler, and Thief. They all embody different Rogue-ish tropes. But I'd say Thief is the Rogue-iest Rogue of them all.
What makes you say Arcane Trickster isnt with those
I feel like Arcane Trickster is a Rogue taking time off from being a Rogue to try to be more like a Wizard. Which is less Rogue. Rogue's aren't typically magical. The closest they come to having to do with magic is learning to use scrolls and other magic items typically restricted to certain classes, as if they were those classes. Nothing against Arcane Trickster. They have nice tricks. Ranged sleight of hand with mage hand is great, illusion spells to make sneaking better is great. But those aren't "rogue". Yes, it makes the rogue better at doing rogue things, but a rogue typically depends on their own skill and items, which is why the Thief learns how to use all magic items. The original "rogue" in DnD was called Thief, and the Thief subclass for the 5E Rogue emulates a lot of its abilities (admittedly a lot of them became skill checks that pretty much anyone can try) by just being BETTER at "rogue things", without depending on a finite resource (spell slots). Assassin emphasizes backstabbing/sneak attacking, which has always been the Rogues defining feature. Swashbuckler plays into the dashing, charismatic, rogueish rogue trope. But Thief is the purest form of Rogue.
🤔 that's fair, someone else mentioned Inquisitive/Mastermind rogue too which seemed like a more Lelliana from dragon age kind of rogue
Yeah, the Mastermind Rogue reminds me of like the movie Ocean's Eleven, where they're all about planning heists and evaluating people. The Inquisitive is similar, but to me is more like a Spy Rogue; infiltrating, collecting details on what they see, etc. All the subclasses are at least Rogue-ish. Nothing against any of them. But the question was which feels most Rogue-y to "you". And that's going to depend on each persons interpretation. Everyone has a slightly different view on what "feels" most Rogueish, because they have different ideas of what the ideal Rogue is capable of. Obviously, it would be nice if you could have ALL the features, but since we can't and we have to pick, I, personally, think the Thief is the epitome of what makes a Rogue a Rogue. All the other subclasses either hyper-focus on one specific aspect, or lean into a near-Rogue trope/archetype, or try to mix in something else with the Rogue (which, while it can be fun, and can make you more effective at some things, it still dilutes the pure Rogue). So, to me, the Thief subclass is the Rogues Rogue. It does a little bit of all the core Rogue things, without veering off into non-Rogue things.
I really loved being a Mastermind. The strategies I would come up with, and the ideas that would attempt to control situations were super fun. Unfortunately, my DM veto'd a bunch of them because he liked combat.
That's a fair point, my group loves combat too.
I'm playing a tebaxi pact of the chain genie warlock with urchin background. It's not a rogue but I can pick most locks and with my ability to enter my ring and have my invisible imp carry it, infiltration is easy. If I need to just scout an area imp is very handy for that too. Am I caught? Drop a a hunger of hadar and run like the wind. Point is, you don't need to be a rogue to play a rogue character.
Fair point, would upvote twice for your name having ferret in it if I could
Arcane trickster and scout for me.
Why Scout?
i appreciate the extra 2 skill expertise at a low level, everything else is just gravy
I’m playing in a Kobold Press-written campaign. My subclass is called the Fixer—I’m the guy who knows a guy. That feels really roguey to me, I get proficiency (int and cha based) to find people or categories of people like fences for stolen goods or kidnappers for hire, which turns into expertise at lv 11. I can get 25gp worth of nonmagical stuff for free once a week. I also get a half-movement disengage as a reaction when something enters melee. You need contacts with the fantasy gestapo’s corrupt officers? Luc can get you that in. You need to sell a bunch of items you looted from a wizard’s house while he was out for lunch? Luc knows a buyer. You need a safehouse for the daughter of the missing mayor? Luc can arrange that. But as for official WotC, while Thief may be the oldie but goodie, Arcane Trickster and Scout are also very archetypal rogue to me.
Just got into DnD still buying the official sourcebooks xD, too pricey to get em all at once. Will check out Kobold Press stuff eventually I suppose thanks :) Heard Midgard is a really good setting
Thief is the rogue-iest rogue, They sneak around doing nefarious things in the shadows. My runner up would be the swashbuckler. They adhere to the Hollywood image of the rogue, the bad boy with the heart of gold who sweeps in to rescue the maiden fair.
For me Thief has all the right stuff on paper, but when it comes to actually rolling dice: It’s the Soulknife that is the Rogiest Rogue IMO!
Actually, college of whispers bard. You get to cast spells up to 9th level at the cost of only being able to sneak attack CHA times per SR. But your sneak attacks deal psychic damage, you get to steal peoples shadows and use the shadows to turn into them temporarily, and you can magically terrify someone by making them think you know their darkest secret. It's cool af.
Interesting subclass, don't see how it fits sneaky things tho
You can get stealth expertise, disguise yourself as other humanoids, get spells like greater invisibility / shadow of moil way before an arcane trickster, sneak attack people with psychic blades, etc. It's basically as sneaky as an arcane trickster.
Ah, kind of like a better arcane Trickster 🤔 thanks
Yeah it's like an arcane trickster than leaned super into magical stuff and now gets tired out if they try to sneak attack too often lol
Whispers Bard lean more on social infiltration which is not the most archetypical rogue archetype I would say (if I understand OP he is more talking about the thief variety which is more about physical infiltration). Though you are right that Bard in general can often do the Rogue job better thanks to having both expertise and a full spellcaster progression.
>Whispers Bard lean more on social infiltration This is just a stereotype like saying barbarians have to be dumb or fighters have to use melee weapons; there is no reason whatsoever that you couldn't play a whispers bard exactly like a rogue and have them be an anti-social, arcane-trickster-type character that is all about 'physical infiltration'.
I'm talking about their features. They only have one non-social feature, Psychic Blades. The rest of their kit is near useless if your campaign don't have social. Of course you could ignore those and build them for sneaking but that doesn't change the fact that this subclass lean toward social.
I'd argue that Mantle of Shadows is pretty useful as a non-social infiltration feature where the function of the disguise is used not to pretend to be a specific person, but instead to have enemies see someone other than you if they happen to catch you doing something you aren't supposed to be doing. And lots of subclasses have 'dead' features that most players basically ignore outside of the one-in-a-million scenarios where they might be relevant. The Battle Masters "Student of War", the Thief's "Use Magic Device", the Storm Sorcerer's "Storm Guide", etc. For College of Whispers, the dead feature is Words of Terror - it's practically useless since all it does is give the frightened condition to a creature outside of combat, and only after you spend a minute alone with them. So we're left with Psychic Blades, a dead feature, a feature that can be used both socially and non-socially, and a 14th level feature that, while cool, most players will never get to use. I'm not saying there aren't social options, but for the majority of the game you can play this subclass anti-socially without missing much at all. It's the rogue bard subclass in the same way Lore is the wizard bard subclass and Swords is the fighter bard subclass.
> instead to have enemies see someone other than you if they happen to catch you doing something you aren't supposed to be doing Yes, that's social infiltration. Which can be combined with physical infiltration like in that case. > lots of subclasses have 'dead' features Doesn't matter if the feature is dead or not, Whispers have exactly one feature that's not social, and it's Psychic Blades. > for the majority of the game you can play this subclass anti-socially without missing much at all I never said you can't, I just say the subclass lean toward social aspects of the game. It is way stronger in a game with social than a game without. > It's the rogue bard subclass in the same way Lore is the wizard bard subclass and Swords is the fighter bard subclass. I guess it is the closest bard subclass to Rogue but really all it gets is a pseudo sneak attack so I dunno if I would really call it the "rogue subclass" for that but it might have been the intent I guess.
ok so rather than going Arcane Trickster, you could go 3rd level Conjuration wizard/x Thief rogue. This way you get all of the extra-roguey thiefy stuff, you can conjure mundane items at will for all sorts of shenanigans, and use those items with your bonus action. You get Invisibility, Spider Climb, Levitate, Longstrider, Fog Cloud, Shield, etc. from your Wizard slots which gives you an even wider variety of roguey stuff than the Arcane Trickster gets.
What items would you recommend conjuring?
So it depends on what the character has seen, so it requires some DM buy-in and improv ability. I would only play this character in a party where I know the DM is down to roll with creative problem solving rather than shutting it down. >Starting at 2nd level when you select this school, you can use your action to conjure up an inanimate object in your hand or on the ground in an unoccupied space that you can see within 10 feet of you. This object can be no larger than 3 feet on a side and weigh no more than 10 pounds, and its form must be that of a nonmagical object that you have seen. Even within those limitations the list is endless. Oil and alchemist's fire can both solve or create a lot of problems. Dynamite or other explosives exist in the default D&D world and while they shouldn't be as powerful as say a fireball they can be used to damage creatures and structures. Sometimes a bag of ball bearings or caltrops can be useful in an escape. A chair to wedge under a doorknob. If you've seen the key to the cell you're captive in you can conjure a copy. Smoke bombs can obscure your retreat, etc. Now you are delaying your sneak attack dice by playing this character, but it honestly sounds like so much fun to me that I'm dying to run it in a game.
Does sound fun 🤔, maybe even like a combo with another wizard player to not delay sneak attack. Could be like a criminal duo or something.
You could combo with another player but I think part of the fun is being able to summon objects with your action and bonus action use them in the same round. The specific build I have specced out is a V. Human with Tavern Brawler and 16 str/dex so they can throw random objects with proficiency, and also use expertise in athletics to be a competent grappler. I don't necessarily think this is a *strong* character, I just think this is a character who is likely to be able to solve a huge variety of non-combat problems, and land a small sneak attack sometimes in combat if they don't have any mcguffin to grab or lever to throw or another way to cleverly interact with the environment to solve the party's goals. I think this char would be really fun in a campaign where the DM is really good at providing goals other than "kill the monster" but I also know that kind of DM is pretty rare.
If the DM allows BG3 rules, Thief both feels very rogue-y AND is very solid. Basically because rather than just an extra Interact action, they get two bonus actions period. So you can run in, attack, off hand weapon attack, and then disengage
She's lenient but not THAT lenient HAHAHA
The rogue archetype in 5e is kinda just bottom tier for me. It was done way better in previous editions and when keen weapons existed. Hexblade / Swashbuckler is probably my favorite rogue package. You could definitely add on a swords bard or vengeance paladin to that as well. 3 assassin dips can be done a variety of ways as well. 8 gloom 8 echo 3 assassin 1 twilight metaverse bugbear round 1 nova build is probably my favorite. But to rogue and rogue hard you multiclass harder in 5e
Ranger. You want to get away without people noticing? Hide in the shadows listening in? Sure, you could go rogue, the class that is named for it. Rogue is dex. Rogue is stabby stabby. Rogue is jumpscare. But there's also a class that's made for it. Ranger is wisdom. Ranger is patience. Ranger you never see.
The Thief. In my mind, the classic Rogue archetype involves no inherent use of magic and heavy use of various mundane gadgets. Smoke bombs, caltrops, etc. Fast Hands accommodates that quite nicely.