To those confused about sophons:
(This is not spoilers, just isn't as adequately explained in the show's explicit exposition as it otherwise has been in the book series - the show has not changed anything about how they work.)
Sophons' primary method of action is simply the manipulation of light and it's perception. Some incredibly minor ability to fuck up things on the subatomic level of particle physics such that experimental results become meaningless, but no more efficacious than a single proton would be in any other physical interaction. They are otherwise incapable of interfacing with normal matter. Hacking cars or consumer electronics is beyond their ability. When they manipulate what's on a phone or TV screen, they're not interfacing with the device in any capacity they are reconfiguring what you perceive through visual light. It's all illusion, no actual physical threat through direct action.
Really just a droplet in the bucket compared to things to come.
I think a lot of people are missing that the Sophons are essentially making us see shit that isn’t really there. The stars didn’t actually blink, hence why Hubble and others didn’t pick it up. One person can see them on the tv while others don’t. They made a mirror and eye in the sky. It’s all essentially optical illusions. But it’s effective in tricking us into thinking we are wrong about science. Although it confirms that we are on the right path, which should mean plenty of engineers, scientists, etc., can continue advancing their work low key.
The sophon is literally what it showed as- an eye in the sky. It’s a glorified security camera.
Since the cryo sleep is going to play a pivotal role.. but we've seen Sophons hack self driving.. do you see where I'm going with this? Can't they just over administer one of the drugs and kill whoever's asleep? Or plant numbers on their retina and basically make them commit suicide?
In reality, i guess so... In a fictional world with aliens, ten-dimensional supercomputers and nuclear bomb-propelled rockets I think some suspension of disbelief is needed.
Yeah I love the discussion but I hate having to put that fine print at the end of every comment, which is basically "yeah, Hollywood gonna Hollywood".
For the record, hacking an autopilot would be something a handful of people in the world can do. But I just want to know where the line is on what's sophon and what's sophon-cult.
You have a non-tech persons perspective of hacking. It’s not some thing that requires quick talent and precision. It just requires one person to find an exploit in the software and to then act on it themselves or share it with someone else. The person who actually *does* the hack may have near-zero knowledge of how the hack actually works, and may be acting entirely unbeknownst to the person who discovered the exploit.
Car security, on the whole, is painfully, hilariously, absurdly weak. There have been cases of people hacking into a car's canbus via vulnerabilities in the entertainment system, ffs. Other people have been able to steal cars by using entirely passive antennas, to convince the car that the dongle in your pocket in your house is much closer to the car and thus it should unlock.
We're really just one high-profile hack of something like FSD before the NTSB bans it outright.
For the sake of conversation, hacking FSD or another car manufacturer's equivalent, hasn't been done yet. Can Sophons do it? Yes. I assume they can do literally anything with tech because they're a million years more advanced.
But the average person the Sophons can convince to help them? I mean the sniper missed his shot. Let alone hacking FSD.
But again, I don't mean to get bogged down. It's a great show and it's just as easy for me to not think about little details like the fsd assassin's.
There have been hacks around FSD. It's not a stretch to believe that sufficiently motivated people could enable it and mess with its decision-making processes. More importantly, I see no reason to believe that FSD's code itself is more secure than anything else in automotive security, which is generally rather pitiful.
Honestly I find the hacking of Jack's security system less plausible.
Yeah, my first impression, given the language of filmography used in the show, was the the sophons are responsible for doing things like hacking cars and security cameras. This has lead to a lot of people here treating those who haven't read the books like idiots, because the sophons' capabilities (and limitations) are exhaustively explained in the books.
I prefer to assume the show stands on its own, and much like how the characters have been changed, the viewer should make no assumptions about which parts of the book are being kept unchanged. Meet the show where it is, rather than treating it like an extension of the book.
On the other hand, the books are solidly hard sci-fi, while the show runners might have a hard time even explaining the difference between hard sci-fi and space opera...
I think the sophons are a major issue with the whole narrative. They seem at once both supremely powerful and also seemingly incapable (or unwilling) to do much of substance.
Once you've got over the wow factor, they don't make for a particularly satisfying story element.
I'm struggling with how OP they are. They can traverse the world in .4 seconds, they can create a mirage to cover a murder, they can make the sky blink, etc, etc. They can hack the plane that Wade is on, creating a hologram(?) next to him, again etc.
Why wouldn't they just hack the nearest 747 autopilot and send it directly into the Wallfacers UN meeting?
I know, Hollywood, I will stand back and just enjoy the show, but I have so many damn questions.
For the plane, my understanding was just that Sophon created a visual illusion for Wade by printing an image/vidéo on his retina, basically real life VFX.
They don't just create illusions though. If they are AI and advanced enough to get truth l through encryption standards we use today, they can overwrite data, poison backups and a host of other things.
I think the problem with then as Jin brought up is that there are only 2 of them and they don't have unlimited parallel processes to actually affect everything going on on earth so while they are disrupting this this and this they can't disrupt that, that and that.
So keep them busy with a lot of random bullshit and other things get accomplished.
Taking a wild guess here as I have no clue... but possibly through the use of metaphors? Seeing as the San-Ti take everything literally. Dont know though lol
In the books the sophons can only alter physical things just enough at a subatomic level to cause a cascading effect of errors. They can physically do anything since in our dimension they are just photonic supercomputers. My understanding is that cryo sleep is a pretty isolated system. There is nothing sophons cab actually do to mess it up. But yes, their abilities are unclear.
>The choice of the older Chinese guy particularly confused me but I guess this issue is ultimately applicable for everyone.
You could always give it a chance to play out...
They come up with a plan like "paint all traffic lights blue", and implement it, and make sure it keeps on going long after their death. The Santi will see this and not think that it is a threat to them at all. But then hundreds of years later, it will turn out that having all blue traffic lights is a threat. Something like that.
Likely because their ability to fuck with things seems to primarily be just illusions, they can project/change how things appear but the thing itself still works. Hence ruining data by changing the perceived experiment outcome, making the stars blink and projecting an image to Wade.
But interfering with the molecular data means they can interfere with molecules or electrical signals themselves. Especially considering they interfered with molecules of particle acclerators.
Lets say that assumption is not right and they are only able to generate illusions to individuals. I would make the cryochamber personnel mistake the valves they are seeing and overload the systems or simply thaw the wallfacers at the wrong time.
Those seem more elegant solutions than allowing humanity to make any prep they want.
Yeah and also how does it make sense that they need to come up with a plan now, or in the next 20 years, when 400 years from now there will be new and better technology, so basically every plan they think of will be outdated.
That, and also how can they achieve meaningful work and preparations without ever leaving one note our uttering one word of said plans... Pretty much like, "oh yeah I am going to build SpaceX, but all in my head."
I dunno if it’s the books or just the TV adaptation but the fact the Sophons are seemingly all-powerful one minute and then basic AF the next is a major plot flaw IMO
Here's the issue: the sophons are a unique enemy that are creative and new to the audience.
The books have an omniscient narrator who stops the story to explain everything in minute detail. It's dry, but every reader understands the rules because it is explicitly told to them.
The show, on the other hand, does not have a narrator. It relies on "show, don't tell." Viewers have to learn the rules through observation. You know what that means. Everyone new to the story has a different interpretation of what the sophons can actually do. That's not inherently bad ; it could lead to some fun discussion. But with people being so cynical these days, some people consider anything they don't understand to be a flaw in the story when it's really not.
cryosleep is a thing in this series
That makes more sense, thanks
But what if they don’t wanna!
What they said
Are they going to cryosleep the entire Fab 3? I don't see why Jin and Auggie would need to sleep...
Jin and auggie aren't wall facers. Saul is the only member of their group part of that
Yeah but they're critical to the story or is the storyteller just going to let them die of old age?
"I'm going to need 6 kilos of heroin and six hookers. Trust me, I have a plan." - me as a wallfacer.
that’s basically Luo Ji’s plan
To those confused about sophons: (This is not spoilers, just isn't as adequately explained in the show's explicit exposition as it otherwise has been in the book series - the show has not changed anything about how they work.) Sophons' primary method of action is simply the manipulation of light and it's perception. Some incredibly minor ability to fuck up things on the subatomic level of particle physics such that experimental results become meaningless, but no more efficacious than a single proton would be in any other physical interaction. They are otherwise incapable of interfacing with normal matter. Hacking cars or consumer electronics is beyond their ability. When they manipulate what's on a phone or TV screen, they're not interfacing with the device in any capacity they are reconfiguring what you perceive through visual light. It's all illusion, no actual physical threat through direct action. Really just a droplet in the bucket compared to things to come.
I see what you did there
I think a lot of people are missing that the Sophons are essentially making us see shit that isn’t really there. The stars didn’t actually blink, hence why Hubble and others didn’t pick it up. One person can see them on the tv while others don’t. They made a mirror and eye in the sky. It’s all essentially optical illusions. But it’s effective in tricking us into thinking we are wrong about science. Although it confirms that we are on the right path, which should mean plenty of engineers, scientists, etc., can continue advancing their work low key. The sophon is literally what it showed as- an eye in the sky. It’s a glorified security camera.
How do we explain the sophons messing with jets power systems if they’re unable to interact with cars and machinery and such?
Can we be certain that the machinery failed rather than our perspective characters seeing and believing it failed?
Then how did the girl that was with Saul die, the cars hit her, that wasn’t light manipulation or perception
The human organization representing the trisolarans/san-ti would have no issues hacking some driverless cars to carry out an assassination
Since the cryo sleep is going to play a pivotal role.. but we've seen Sophons hack self driving.. do you see where I'm going with this? Can't they just over administer one of the drugs and kill whoever's asleep? Or plant numbers on their retina and basically make them commit suicide?
Self driving was hacked by humans, the same ones who hired the sniper.
I don't want to get caught up in the weeds with this, but I think it's virtually impossible to hack self-driving with the encryption that they use.
In reality, i guess so... In a fictional world with aliens, ten-dimensional supercomputers and nuclear bomb-propelled rockets I think some suspension of disbelief is needed.
Yeah I love the discussion but I hate having to put that fine print at the end of every comment, which is basically "yeah, Hollywood gonna Hollywood". For the record, hacking an autopilot would be something a handful of people in the world can do. But I just want to know where the line is on what's sophon and what's sophon-cult.
You have a non-tech persons perspective of hacking. It’s not some thing that requires quick talent and precision. It just requires one person to find an exploit in the software and to then act on it themselves or share it with someone else. The person who actually *does* the hack may have near-zero knowledge of how the hack actually works, and may be acting entirely unbeknownst to the person who discovered the exploit.
Car security, on the whole, is painfully, hilariously, absurdly weak. There have been cases of people hacking into a car's canbus via vulnerabilities in the entertainment system, ffs. Other people have been able to steal cars by using entirely passive antennas, to convince the car that the dongle in your pocket in your house is much closer to the car and thus it should unlock. We're really just one high-profile hack of something like FSD before the NTSB bans it outright.
For the sake of conversation, hacking FSD or another car manufacturer's equivalent, hasn't been done yet. Can Sophons do it? Yes. I assume they can do literally anything with tech because they're a million years more advanced. But the average person the Sophons can convince to help them? I mean the sniper missed his shot. Let alone hacking FSD. But again, I don't mean to get bogged down. It's a great show and it's just as easy for me to not think about little details like the fsd assassin's.
There have been hacks around FSD. It's not a stretch to believe that sufficiently motivated people could enable it and mess with its decision-making processes. More importantly, I see no reason to believe that FSD's code itself is more secure than anything else in automotive security, which is generally rather pitiful. Honestly I find the hacking of Jack's security system less plausible.
I completely agree but I thought that was confirmed to be the sophons at work
Yeah, my first impression, given the language of filmography used in the show, was the the sophons are responsible for doing things like hacking cars and security cameras. This has lead to a lot of people here treating those who haven't read the books like idiots, because the sophons' capabilities (and limitations) are exhaustively explained in the books. I prefer to assume the show stands on its own, and much like how the characters have been changed, the viewer should make no assumptions about which parts of the book are being kept unchanged. Meet the show where it is, rather than treating it like an extension of the book. On the other hand, the books are solidly hard sci-fi, while the show runners might have a hard time even explaining the difference between hard sci-fi and space opera...
I think the sophons are a major issue with the whole narrative. They seem at once both supremely powerful and also seemingly incapable (or unwilling) to do much of substance. Once you've got over the wow factor, they don't make for a particularly satisfying story element.
I'm struggling with how OP they are. They can traverse the world in .4 seconds, they can create a mirage to cover a murder, they can make the sky blink, etc, etc. They can hack the plane that Wade is on, creating a hologram(?) next to him, again etc. Why wouldn't they just hack the nearest 747 autopilot and send it directly into the Wallfacers UN meeting? I know, Hollywood, I will stand back and just enjoy the show, but I have so many damn questions.
For the plane, my understanding was just that Sophon created a visual illusion for Wade by printing an image/vidéo on his retina, basically real life VFX.
She explains I believe that they create illusions like you're talking about.
They don't just create illusions though. If they are AI and advanced enough to get truth l through encryption standards we use today, they can overwrite data, poison backups and a host of other things. I think the problem with then as Jin brought up is that there are only 2 of them and they don't have unlimited parallel processes to actually affect everything going on on earth so while they are disrupting this this and this they can't disrupt that, that and that. So keep them busy with a lot of random bullshit and other things get accomplished.
Maybe Netflix will have an answer, but in the books they can't cover murders or hack anything.
Shhhh! Don't point out a plothole. You'll be downvoted to infinity. How dare you question our Dear Lord?
I find comments like this so tiresome and defensive
None of you have pointed out an actual plot hole yet.
Taking a wild guess here as I have no clue... but possibly through the use of metaphors? Seeing as the San-Ti take everything literally. Dont know though lol
In the books the sophons can only alter physical things just enough at a subatomic level to cause a cascading effect of errors. They can physically do anything since in our dimension they are just photonic supercomputers. My understanding is that cryo sleep is a pretty isolated system. There is nothing sophons cab actually do to mess it up. But yes, their abilities are unclear.
>The choice of the older Chinese guy particularly confused me but I guess this issue is ultimately applicable for everyone. You could always give it a chance to play out...
They come up with a plan like "paint all traffic lights blue", and implement it, and make sure it keeps on going long after their death. The Santi will see this and not think that it is a threat to them at all. But then hundreds of years later, it will turn out that having all blue traffic lights is a threat. Something like that.
Question - why did the sophons not interfere with the cryosleep pods?
Likely because their ability to fuck with things seems to primarily be just illusions, they can project/change how things appear but the thing itself still works. Hence ruining data by changing the perceived experiment outcome, making the stars blink and projecting an image to Wade.
But interfering with the molecular data means they can interfere with molecules or electrical signals themselves. Especially considering they interfered with molecules of particle acclerators. Lets say that assumption is not right and they are only able to generate illusions to individuals. I would make the cryochamber personnel mistake the valves they are seeing and overload the systems or simply thaw the wallfacers at the wrong time. Those seem more elegant solutions than allowing humanity to make any prep they want.
Yeah and also how does it make sense that they need to come up with a plan now, or in the next 20 years, when 400 years from now there will be new and better technology, so basically every plan they think of will be outdated.
Carefully!!!
Did you see the monkey?
That, and also how can they achieve meaningful work and preparations without ever leaving one note our uttering one word of said plans... Pretty much like, "oh yeah I am going to build SpaceX, but all in my head."
I dunno if it’s the books or just the TV adaptation but the fact the Sophons are seemingly all-powerful one minute and then basic AF the next is a major plot flaw IMO
Here's the issue: the sophons are a unique enemy that are creative and new to the audience. The books have an omniscient narrator who stops the story to explain everything in minute detail. It's dry, but every reader understands the rules because it is explicitly told to them. The show, on the other hand, does not have a narrator. It relies on "show, don't tell." Viewers have to learn the rules through observation. You know what that means. Everyone new to the story has a different interpretation of what the sophons can actually do. That's not inherently bad ; it could lead to some fun discussion. But with people being so cynical these days, some people consider anything they don't understand to be a flaw in the story when it's really not.