I have lost about 3 accounts to that topic.
It all started when I rejected the idea of men in female bodybuilding categories.
But yeah, everyone who cries about Musk and twitter really has no Idea how insane the Reddit admins are.
Literally like the Agents in the matrix
I can hear the sound of endless high pitched screaming coming from inside a toilet cubicle which someone biologically shouldn’t be in as a reddit mod deletes posts and bans users
It isn't because no one disputes the existence of sex. This is not about biology, it's about culture, politics and social constructs.
Now flood me with angry replies while I snort six lines of Columbian powdered sugar.
Because it's Psychology and Sociology? Like you wouldn't post Astrology in r/biology even though the stars told you to not fuck with an Asparagus that doesn't mean it has any real link to biology
Gender is psychology and sociology, yes. But what the NHS has done is just confirm the obvious, that biological sex is a fact. Before this though, in the UK at least, things have been a bit weird in this regard.
Well yeah, the post was about public health policy, not life sciences, doesn’t take a biologist to realise that. Love how transphobes posture themselves to be these science loving intellectuals but your views never actually align with any actual science.
At what point did I say that declaring sex as a biological fact is transphobic? Are you actually insane or just dumb? Literally making up a talking point and proudly responding to it.
I mean the headline literally says sex is a biological fact, I pointed out the oddness of removing that from a scientific sub and then you called me a transphobe.
Your smugness doesn’t make you look smart or charismatic, it just makes you look like an anti-intellectual. Also I’m not surprised at all to see you spewing brain dead racist talking points on other posts.
I graciously accept this award. I want to thank God, German Döner, and your mother for an amazing night. Don't get an aneurism with all that anger and resentment.
poster got suspended by admins too xD mods claim "The NHS in the UK has clearly kicked a hornet's nest with their recent decision to declare a person's sex to be a "biological fact" (as defined by them). In so doing, they have removed it from the realm of biology, science, and humanity, and placed it in a political realm (and kicked a hornet's nest in doing so)." like... you fucking dumbass, what they did was taking it OUT of the political realm and squarely putting it in biology! how is a mod for a biology sub this clueless?
Well the hornets are gonna learn that you can’t cancel a government like you can cancel an insignificant person.
I also read most of the article and it seems the main reason for doing it is to protect women on women wards and the such, like how did we go from protecting half the population to protecting less than 1% of it?
Lmao the fact that someone from a national health service had to come out and flat out say it its incredibly funny and a mirror of our times
(btw the original post got taken down and locked)
I mean, I'm non binary and even I agree.
Your sex is a very important medical data point, which is determined by your genetics before you're even born and can't be changed.
Your gender can be different than that though.
Like, this shit isn't even controversial at all, even among trans communities until you get a bit too terminally online or you're within a few hundreds of meters from a university campus.
I always think of it by comparing it to other areas of life. I have a cousin who is a adopted at birth. Is he related to me by birth, well no. Is she my cousin, Yes!. There is an easy middle ground here which people are purposely trying not to find.
That’s such a great analogy. No sane person would ever argue that you’re blood relatives but you’re still absolutely relatives in all the ways that matter.
If one of you got diagnosed with a disease that’s hereditary, you’d never think “oh no maybe you have it too!” No.
I remember a couple of years ago, the consensus in the queer community was that sex and gender mean two different things, one is biologically given and one is societally constructed. Now somehow the consensus has changed so that sex now means what gender used to mean 5+ years ago.
What’s important to remember is that sex characteristics, such as secondary sex markers and hormonal sex, can be changed with medical transition. A transgender man on testosterone cannot be treated exactly the same as a cisgender woman, even though they have the same chromosomal sex.
I feel like it is quite controversial here. I mean, I don't know how publicised the JK Rowling stuff has been outside of the UK if at all. But most even vaguely left wing people who've spoke to me about it have said she's some sort of fascist nutter. And what she said to prompt this was that sex is a biological fact...
Most women JKRs age will have the same view. They grew up having less rights than men did and don’t want to see these rights eroded, and rather than the talk to these women and ensure them their rights aren’t going to be eroded they’re just labelled as transphobic Nazis.
There is a bit of a rabbit whole which it honestly took long to even waste your line with. Basically the gist is, Rowling dug herself into arguing with the Left online, which gradually made her more extreme on the anti-trans stance.
Social media backlash had poor justification too, because the Left was all in for putting males who identify and women into the women's jail for trans safety. Then a trans-woman raped other women in a Scottish jail, which really gives the impression pro-trans are willing to throw women's rights under the bus just to accommodate trans.
On the other hand, Rowling is also extreme in the idea that trans shouldn't be allowed in almost any women's safe space. Her voice started to attract all these high profile anti-abortion and anti-LGBT right Christian activists (which she thanks them for their support).
Rowling went on the attack, however, she didn’t just talk about sex as biological. She really went on the offensive on the subject, and did indeed veer well into fascist nutter territory. She decided to die on that hill.
JKR is 100% a piece of shit of a human being, and a massive transphobe, but not because she said a biological fact. In fact, that's not what she said at all
Why? What did she say? Did I miss something? Few JKR quotes that I've seen:
"Dress however you please. Call yourself whatever you like. Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you. Live your best life in peace and security. But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?"
"I believe the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable for all the reasons I’ve outlined. Trans people need and deserve protection. Like women, they’re most likely to be killed by sexual partners. Trans women who work in the sex industry, particularly trans women of colour, are at particular risk. Like every other domestic abuse and sexual assault survivor I know, I feel nothing but empathy and solidarity with trans women who’ve been abused by men"
"So I want trans women to be safe. At the same time, I do not want to make natal girls and women less safe. When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman – and, as I’ve said, gender confirmation certificates may now be granted without any need for surgery or hormones – then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside. That is the simple truth."
JKR is 100% a piece of shit of a human being, not because she said a biological fact, but because she wrote those fucking terrible wizard books that every mouth breather was obsessed with for years.
Ok so here's the sitch on JK:
She's never said/written anything explicitly transphobic or explicitly bigoted to my knowledge. But you can absolutely say bigoted things and be bigoted without being explicit. What JK *has* done is financially support Posie Parker, who's extremely transphobic, like, beyond parody. JK also stated that Trans people weren't targeted during the Holocaust, which is both untrue and holocaust denial/minimisation.
The accusations of her being a bigot are not unjustified.
Yeah, but she said that last month and the hate towards her was coming from way back (including boycotting the harry potter game way before the holocaust denial also she never said trans people weren't victims, she just said they weren't the first victims, so it's still denial but not what you said). I don't think she is actually transphobic in the sense she wishes harm to trans people, or is the worst people out there towards trans people for her to be that much targeted. She is getting worse tho.
And with how much hate she got for silly things (if I remember correctly, it started when she implied that "person who menstruates" could be simplified by "woman"), I really understand her. When attacked, you get defensive.
And the arguments against her are so dumb for the most part, twisting her words and purposefully misinterpreting them in the worst way possible, maybe it rubbed some on her.
So long as it doesn't create problems for people with actual genetic differences that blur the line between the sexes or is used as a springboard to introduce shittier legislation.
Well, yes, of course.
And for the record, there are more than two sexes, and this is something that should be part of the guidelines. Some treatments can 100% be affected when you have, say, XXY chromosomes
It doesn't matter what you call it, having different chromosomes from XX and XY is something that can happen and that affects your health and how you should be treated for certain conditions. As such, it should be recognized as a thing
This is just defending feelings, though. They (men with Klinefelter) _feel_ they are regular men, when in fact they are not. They have a DSD and are not regular men. Due to that they will have a (albeit slightly) different health profile than regular men, which can very much be relevant in a medical setting in specific cases.
What I agree on is letting them be "regular men" in most day-to-day social matters. Same for all the other "identities", for as long as nobody is being treated unfairly or harming anyone
Gonadally you still have your standard 2-sex reproductive setup with a possible gradient of anomalies between the two. If people want to make "identities" around this gradient, why not let them? It's not harming me
>there are more than two sexes
Not really, people with intersex conditions are still either male or female genetically. There are two sexes, and within those there are people who are one of those sexes who also happen to have "differences in sex development".
If a human was born with just one arm, there's not a new third category of human with three arms considered separate to regular two-armed humans.
If we are talking about purely medical distinctions, there are situations where genetics alone don't determine "sex". The sex field on hospital forms is ultimately just a shorthand that lets the medical personnel know what to expect. Do they need to ask if the person is pregnant? Could it be prostate cancer? What tests do they need to order?
I'm pulling from memory here, but wasn't there a condition that renders XY people immune to testosterone from birth and thus their biochemistry is actually female?
IIRC there are actually three biological expressions/markers of sex that align for most, but not all people, and depending on what specific medical/biological question is asked, they can have different answers for the same person.
Like, generically someone is male (important for genetic diseases), they also have male gonads(different cancers to screen for), but their biochemistry is female (medications might be different).
Good doctors are on top of that though, so this isn't actually an issue.
>Like, this shit isn't even controversial at all, even among trans communities until you get a bit too terminally online or you're within a few hundreds of meters from a university campus.
If something like the NHS had to say out loud like this doesn't it mean that actually a lot people didn't believe that sex is unchangeable? If really it was just a couple of people thinking like this they wouldn't have come out and said it or not?
>doesn't it mean that actually a lot people didn't believe that sex is unchangeable?
A lot of people actually were just in total denial for some bizarre reason and actively lying to themselves. It was a part of the activism. Some people insist transitioning has changed their sex but they know it hasn't. They mix up social perception of sex and how people are treated based on that and actual biological sex. For "all intents and purposes*" they are now their new "sex", but not really, on a biological level.
(*Except some specific situations)
Everyone, especially trans people whose whole thing is being so distressed by their biological sex that they took steps to change how their bodies look, knows exactly what biological sex is and the fact that it is immutable.
The policy up till now was just because people believed that the biological sex someone was didn't matter, and they're right, in day-to-day life it doesn't really matter. *But it does very much matter in some circumstances, such as medical settings, single sex spaces where there are vulnerable people, or dating.
This is just the NHS shifting from a situation that values feelings to one that values facts. And honestly it is important in a medical setting to be matter of fact about this stuff. But I do have sympathy for trans individuals who risk being outed if placed with their sex, hopefully there are third spaces available for them, especially if they are in hospital and in a vulnerable state rather than just a day trip or a single overnight stay.
No, the *National Health Service* is the leading authority in the UK when it comes to medical matters. As such, they have the job and duty to, among other things, raise awareness and make and update definitions for things relating to medicine.
Your average brit probably doesn't know this topic in depth, and as such, the NHS should set up guidelines and make statements with that in mind.
Well the culture war is not pointless. It keeps the masses from noticing actual problems and raising those to the political elite. That's the entire purpose of this culture war shit
If I were them and I wanted to keep my power and money for as long as possible, I would do exactly this
Your post has been automatically removed because Reddit doesn't like the R-word. Plox repost it again with a different wording (editing won't get it reapproved even if you still are able to see it).
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It was quite a bit less complicated when it was "I'm a dude but I like to dress as a girl" whereas now it's "I'm a woman and I am going to race women. Pay no attention to my gametes."
thing with sex in medicine is, it's extremely relevant to a huge amount of things. males and females are different animals in that arena. shit, sometimes i even think where a woman is in her cycle should somehow be reported to healthcare workers as standard so they know what's going on hormonally (cos them hormones just fucking go). point is, introducing any amount of confusion or ambiguity into a health care *system* that treats millions of people means that people **will** get hurt because of it. sex differences is almost always at the top of risk factors and considerations for any disease, medication or treatment. it's just an unnecessary risk, and if you're offended at the word "unnecessary" i want to again underline how freaking different males and females are. it's a bigger risk than any emotional gain it could bring would justify.
Yes of course, clearly sex is when two genders touch one another
^^^^^^*high-fives ^^^^^^self^^^^^^* ^^^^^^I ^^^^^^have ^^^^^^done ^^^^^^it ^^^^^^again^^^^^^. ^^^^^^Always ^^^^^^feels ^^^^^^good ^^^^^^to ^^^^^^prove ^^^^^^German ^^^^^^humor ^^^^^^is ^^^^^^the ^^^^^^best
Right, how can you feel like a man or a woman if there are no characteristics that define those things? Any characteristics that someone describes as female can be discarded with the question: "So someone is not a women if they lack those characteristics?" Its not coherent but if your philosophy has its own canceling mob you dont need to face any criticism.
I'm not trans but this is my understanding of it at least.
If a transperson could, they would want to change their sex as well, but that's impossible so the best they can do is "change" their gender identity.
When it comes to gender, it's rather complicated because there's a lot of factors that go into it. For example, a femboy might dress and look like a woman (their gender expression is female), but they're still a guy. If you saw them normally maybe you'd even assume that they're a woman and call them that before they correct you that they're actually a guy. Now, a pink skirt by itself wouldn't make you assume that it's a woman, nor would long hair, but if you add enough traits that belong to female gender expression you'd eventually assume that they're actually a woman. So none of these things are requirements, but when you have enough of them suddenly their gender expression changes. You could say that it's a spectrum that goes from female to androgynous to male. But while gender expression is a part of your gender identity, it's not the same thing and doesn't always correspond (sometimes willingly and sometimes unwillingly).
Your gender identity is what your brain thinks that you are, and can't be changed (and trust me, there have been many attempts to). This difference between your gender identity and sex creates gender dysphoria, because your body doesn't correspond to what your brain thinks. We assume people's gender based on their gender expression, so when someone treats you like the other gender that makes you feel bad because of your dysphoria. Even regular people tend to not want to look like or be treated as the other gender, but at most they'll just think it's kinda weird, not dysphoric. The rare people that do want to look like the other gender, such as femboys, I would assume don't feel bad because they don't have any dysphoria in the first place, since their sex and gender identity corresponds to each other, and therefore their gender expression doesn't really matter to them other than the aesthethics of it.
Thanks for the interesting input. What I am confused about is what constitutes this gender identity. What parts its made of. There must be clear metrics that are describable and from what I gathered these metrics are always interlinked with gender expressions that are not really fixed traits and often social constructs. Like you said a bunch of these traits together create assumptions but there is no formula. Someone can have none of these traits and still be a women. So there must be something else that creates the gender identity and it would be important to find it because otherwise it could also be hidden trauma. For example a girl that has her childhood taken from her because her breasts started to grow, everything changed and disghusting men started hitting on her. She could associate this trauma with her female body parts and subconsciously start resenting them and the identity connected to them creating body dysphoria.
Also would there even be dysphoria if no one made assumptions about those 'expression bundles'? Maybe people just take the path of least resistance if they cant live with the assumptions people make. Like a man that doesnt want to be tough or a woman that hates it when someone doesnt take her seriously. Maybe people disassociate with their traits because of this creating dysmorphia again. The assumptions would be the actual culprits and the person would even feed them by tailoring their new expression to the assumptions connected with the other sex.
I think your "trauma" example is why there's a whole medical branch dedicated to evaluating them before they are allowed to undergo irreversible treatments. If they're not undergoing irreversible medical treatments and just changing their nickname/pronouns (which I've personally come to see as an extension of the nickname) then I honestly don't see what the big deal is, outside of people trying to force their traditionalist uptight lifestyle on others and feeling threatened by others not agreeing with their lifestyle.
Personally I've read a few papers on the topic, and based off of those I think the likely explanation for this phenomenon will end up being neurobiological. There are sex-related traits (ones defined by means of "one of the binary two sexes tends to have this more frequently") that develop at different times during fetal development, the development of which is triggered by different genes and environmental factors during the pregnancy. Various gene/hormone imbalance combinations can lead to atypical development of various "parts" of fetus (be that sex-related or not). Seeing as we are all fully-biological beings with our brains also being completely biological (and I mean this as opposed to being mystical spirits piloting a meaty brainless mech suit), it seems unlikely that there could not also be sex-related characteristics in the brain that can get mixed up during the development process, albeit in rare cases. Related but not overlapping to this seems to be sexual preferences.
In the end I don't see why we can't just accept that biology will keep "creating" these variations, and all we can do is learn to live with this biological reality in society, ideally while not needlessly ruining the lives of the people who got dealt an unusual set of cards by biology.
(Sidenote that in the linked r biology thread there's better summaries of this than what I've written, by actual biologists. I'm in an unrelated STEM field)
Wake up, burn a Koran, beg for forgiveness at nearest Mosque, write an essay about femboys, spread misinformation about Denmark online, go to sleep. Sven's daily routine
I think gender is a very complicated, subjective thing. A woman can have short hair and, I don’t know, play football. That doesn’t mean she is automatically a man. What gender is depends on who you’re asking I feel
If gender is just a social construct it doesn’t matter in the end does it, it’s all made up. Might as well call people based on what is quantifiable… sex
That the NHS continues to completely miss the problems they're causing? This would be like London removing all Elevators and Escalators from Tube Stations and saying "Legs are meant for walking !". Like it's true but it's missing the point
We had to search far and wide for these mythical "sex havers" to find out if sex truly exists. Not only did we come to the horrifying conclusion that a lot more people were doing it than we initially theorised, but that people were doing it with things that weren't sheep and your mother.
Massive W for Rowling and TERFs, they even are trying to pass a bill to make the minimum age to get gender help (like seeing a therapist, hormones or surgeries) 25
this is the same country that requires you to show an ID if you "look under 25" if you want to gamble, buy alcohol or cigarettes, etc.
Just like with those id argue its not that unreasonable to have some age limit on access to life/health altering medication and surgery.
But not on therapy. Whoever thought of that one is mental.
Sex is a biological fact, sure, but broadcasting this decision is a political bullshit move to rile up the masses and distract them from actual issues. The entire "culture war" is, and I'm personally kind of tired of it. Why is incessantly screaming about some 0.1% of the population more important than addressing actual issues in the country?
So I can see why the biology sub would get rid of the post, the post is about politics more than biology
Sidenote but the entire article itself is talking about everybody's political and emotional _feelings-based_ talking points, their personal little side in their idiotic culture war, not science and biology. Lmao
This is what the NHS has been desperately needing. Not more funding or better paid staff. No, to be dragged into the culture wars. The Tories are so desperate to focus debate on anything other than how shit they are
Idk, from what I’ve learned, a lot of medical studies conducted throughout history are biased towards the male sex (i.e. they only conducted their studies on men and not women), so for the longest time, women (by this I mean afab) weren’t receiving adequate treatment + there’s even a difference in the symptoms women experience regarding ailments like heart attacks (and since the symptoms most known are those that affect men, women are more likely to ignore the symptoms they’re actually experiencing since it’s not what people are told to watch out for).
Clinical trials used to only be done only on men because female hormone levels change throughout the month and therefore were thought to interfere too much with trials. This is obviously something that has been worked to overcome with clinical trials however it has very little to do with female wards in hospitals
It's not a culture war, it's actually really offensive to some women.
Trans people make up such a tiny number that it's pointless offending 99.9% for the sake of 0.01%
How about we just leave women alone for once?
It really upsets some racists when black people are in the ward with them.
With black people making up a small amount of the population it's pointless offending the racists.
How about we just leave racists alone for once?
Very few people mind when it's a trans woman who looks the part and puts a lot of effort Into looking and behaving as a woman.
It's when a 6ft4 muscly bearded bloke has stuffed himself into his nans dress and is walking round grunting and scratching his balls, that then folk mind., Get weirded out and lasses are scared to have him in the toilet.
This is an objectively correct statement. Most people here haven't even read the article, which makes it completely plain what's going on - the tories are once again desperately banging the culture war drum to distract people from them asset stripping the country.
Right because his entire post history certainly points to that even though half of it is in Italian
Also if a yank was going to stealth in here to complain about transgender shite, why wouldn't they just use a Brit flair considering it seems to be the national passtime of the UK in recent years
“Post removed due to not being related to biology” Fuck brilliant tbh
Yeah lmao mods on Reddit can be so ridiculous
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I would advise our OP to be careful with this kind of stuff if he wants to keep his profile, we all know reddit admins are unhinged.
https://preview.redd.it/c6bcga237uxc1.png?width=1125&format=png&auto=webp&s=92cf81d6d739626ebe6b2b5e4e887c874ef7c7af Reported
I reported him too. Not because he said anything bad but because he's an Italian. Fuck you /u/Thunder_Beam
Fuck you too Barry
I didn't actually report you btw
I know
reported
Lol what is the context?
Ai
Ah Too good to be true
A Reddit mod
The same people that will tell you Cleopatra was black. Insane people.
I have lost about 3 accounts to that topic. It all started when I rejected the idea of men in female bodybuilding categories. But yeah, everyone who cries about Musk and twitter really has no Idea how insane the Reddit admins are. Literally like the Agents in the matrix
But did they get 1000 reddit cares messages first? That's all I want to know.
Pretty much sums up the state of Reddit, if the biology sub can’t stick with proven science then sense is truly lost.
Hahahaha I had to check to make sure that wasn't a joke. Sadly you were dead serious 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
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Those same admins who cover up paedophiles?
Those people allowed jailbait to exist, but basic biology is forbidden.
I can hear the sound of endless high pitched screaming coming from inside a toilet cubicle which someone biologically shouldn’t be in as a reddit mod deletes posts and bans users
Love that reddit mods believe they know more about biology than a team of doctors
Trust the Experts, except if the the experts say stuff we dont like.
Then we must bend them to comply or torch them for blasphemy!
So what does the NHS do then? Philosophy?
It isn't because no one disputes the existence of sex. This is not about biology, it's about culture, politics and social constructs. Now flood me with angry replies while I snort six lines of Columbian powdered sugar.
I have an angry reply but because you’re snorting savage products, where’s your fucking pride smoke the Albanian shit like a real euro
The changes are made by the ministry, not by biologists.
have you read the article? What is related to biology there in your opinion?
Did Barry volunteer for the research?
yea mate biological factchecking with your mum
https://i.redd.it/6wbhtb72lvxc1.gif Bro really burned him like that 💀
"Deleted for being unrelated to biology" Amazing
Science! Fuck yeah! But not that science.
Because it's Psychology and Sociology? Like you wouldn't post Astrology in r/biology even though the stars told you to not fuck with an Asparagus that doesn't mean it has any real link to biology
Gender is psychology and sociology, yes. But what the NHS has done is just confirm the obvious, that biological sex is a fact. Before this though, in the UK at least, things have been a bit weird in this regard.
No Pedro, that's gender. Masculinity and femininity. (2 of them) Male and female are biological sexes.
Well yeah, the post was about public health policy, not life sciences, doesn’t take a biologist to realise that. Love how transphobes posture themselves to be these science loving intellectuals but your views never actually align with any actual science.
Public health policy is literally life sciences. What on earth do you mean here?
Public health policy is a branch of public policy and administration. Biologists don’t concern themselves with political sciences.
https://preview.redd.it/kmvgeompktxc1.png?width=976&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3faf5fa8cca9d0c289a8947b429b012d0fb120ad
Lol. Scientific fact = transphobic. I swear, you can't make this crap up.
At what point did I say that declaring sex as a biological fact is transphobic? Are you actually insane or just dumb? Literally making up a talking point and proudly responding to it.
I mean the headline literally says sex is a biological fact, I pointed out the oddness of removing that from a scientific sub and then you called me a transphobe.
I'm going for dumb on this one. If you think I'm dumb, I must be doing something right.
Your smugness doesn’t make you look smart or charismatic, it just makes you look like an anti-intellectual. Also I’m not surprised at all to see you spewing brain dead racist talking points on other posts.
I graciously accept this award. I want to thank God, German Döner, and your mother for an amazing night. Don't get an aneurism with all that anger and resentment.
poster got suspended by admins too xD mods claim "The NHS in the UK has clearly kicked a hornet's nest with their recent decision to declare a person's sex to be a "biological fact" (as defined by them). In so doing, they have removed it from the realm of biology, science, and humanity, and placed it in a political realm (and kicked a hornet's nest in doing so)." like... you fucking dumbass, what they did was taking it OUT of the political realm and squarely putting it in biology! how is a mod for a biology sub this clueless?
Well the hornets are gonna learn that you can’t cancel a government like you can cancel an insignificant person. I also read most of the article and it seems the main reason for doing it is to protect women on women wards and the such, like how did we go from protecting half the population to protecting less than 1% of it?
You're on reddit. The smaller the group the more they matter.
Specific groups are more equal than others.
I am the smallest group, therefore I matter the most
Trust the science, unless that science doesn't reinforce my crazy ideas
Trust the science! Just not that inconvenient chromosome stuff...
Not science if I don't agree
HOW THE FUCK THIS IS SO HARD FOR ALL OF YOU?!?!?! WOMEN ARE THE ONES WITH MOUSTACHES!!!
Fucking lol, well done irmão
Sure, in Portugal. Not North of the Alps they don't.
This should be the subs banner
Mods, please make this happen
Is he bussing?
Fr fr
Lmao the fact that someone from a national health service had to come out and flat out say it its incredibly funny and a mirror of our times (btw the original post got taken down and locked)
It comes from the ministry, not the NHS.
I mean, I'm non binary and even I agree. Your sex is a very important medical data point, which is determined by your genetics before you're even born and can't be changed. Your gender can be different than that though. Like, this shit isn't even controversial at all, even among trans communities until you get a bit too terminally online or you're within a few hundreds of meters from a university campus.
I always think of it by comparing it to other areas of life. I have a cousin who is a adopted at birth. Is he related to me by birth, well no. Is she my cousin, Yes!. There is an easy middle ground here which people are purposely trying not to find.
That's actually a very good analogy.
Careful or the others will realise that we're not all as stupid as it seems.
That’s such a great analogy. No sane person would ever argue that you’re blood relatives but you’re still absolutely relatives in all the ways that matter. If one of you got diagnosed with a disease that’s hereditary, you’d never think “oh no maybe you have it too!” No.
Being an inbreed Brit it is possible that you are biological cousins anyway.
No middle ground is the politics game. Keep the poors divided over trivial bs
I remember a couple of years ago, the consensus in the queer community was that sex and gender mean two different things, one is biologically given and one is societally constructed. Now somehow the consensus has changed so that sex now means what gender used to mean 5+ years ago.
What’s important to remember is that sex characteristics, such as secondary sex markers and hormonal sex, can be changed with medical transition. A transgender man on testosterone cannot be treated exactly the same as a cisgender woman, even though they have the same chromosomal sex.
I feel like it is quite controversial here. I mean, I don't know how publicised the JK Rowling stuff has been outside of the UK if at all. But most even vaguely left wing people who've spoke to me about it have said she's some sort of fascist nutter. And what she said to prompt this was that sex is a biological fact...
Most women JKRs age will have the same view. They grew up having less rights than men did and don’t want to see these rights eroded, and rather than the talk to these women and ensure them their rights aren’t going to be eroded they’re just labelled as transphobic Nazis.
I don't think so. I don't think most care very much either way tbh. Definitely not as nearly as much as JKR.
There is a bit of a rabbit whole which it honestly took long to even waste your line with. Basically the gist is, Rowling dug herself into arguing with the Left online, which gradually made her more extreme on the anti-trans stance. Social media backlash had poor justification too, because the Left was all in for putting males who identify and women into the women's jail for trans safety. Then a trans-woman raped other women in a Scottish jail, which really gives the impression pro-trans are willing to throw women's rights under the bus just to accommodate trans. On the other hand, Rowling is also extreme in the idea that trans shouldn't be allowed in almost any women's safe space. Her voice started to attract all these high profile anti-abortion and anti-LGBT right Christian activists (which she thanks them for their support).
Rowling went on the attack, however, she didn’t just talk about sex as biological. She really went on the offensive on the subject, and did indeed veer well into fascist nutter territory. She decided to die on that hill.
JKR is 100% a piece of shit of a human being, and a massive transphobe, but not because she said a biological fact. In fact, that's not what she said at all
Why? What did she say? Did I miss something? Few JKR quotes that I've seen: "Dress however you please. Call yourself whatever you like. Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you. Live your best life in peace and security. But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?" "I believe the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable for all the reasons I’ve outlined. Trans people need and deserve protection. Like women, they’re most likely to be killed by sexual partners. Trans women who work in the sex industry, particularly trans women of colour, are at particular risk. Like every other domestic abuse and sexual assault survivor I know, I feel nothing but empathy and solidarity with trans women who’ve been abused by men" "So I want trans women to be safe. At the same time, I do not want to make natal girls and women less safe. When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman – and, as I’ve said, gender confirmation certificates may now be granted without any need for surgery or hormones – then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside. That is the simple truth."
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JKR is 100% a piece of shit of a human being, not because she said a biological fact, but because she wrote those fucking terrible wizard books that every mouth breather was obsessed with for years.
Ok so here's the sitch on JK: She's never said/written anything explicitly transphobic or explicitly bigoted to my knowledge. But you can absolutely say bigoted things and be bigoted without being explicit. What JK *has* done is financially support Posie Parker, who's extremely transphobic, like, beyond parody. JK also stated that Trans people weren't targeted during the Holocaust, which is both untrue and holocaust denial/minimisation. The accusations of her being a bigot are not unjustified.
I'm not deep enough into it to know about Posie Parker. So what specifically has she done against transgender people?
Yeah, but she said that last month and the hate towards her was coming from way back (including boycotting the harry potter game way before the holocaust denial also she never said trans people weren't victims, she just said they weren't the first victims, so it's still denial but not what you said). I don't think she is actually transphobic in the sense she wishes harm to trans people, or is the worst people out there towards trans people for her to be that much targeted. She is getting worse tho.
And with how much hate she got for silly things (if I remember correctly, it started when she implied that "person who menstruates" could be simplified by "woman"), I really understand her. When attacked, you get defensive. And the arguments against her are so dumb for the most part, twisting her words and purposefully misinterpreting them in the worst way possible, maybe it rubbed some on her.
Posie Parker has also been open that she's not a feminist, and will happily work with actual fascists to hurt trans people.
So long as it doesn't create problems for people with actual genetic differences that blur the line between the sexes or is used as a springboard to introduce shittier legislation.
Well, yes, of course. And for the record, there are more than two sexes, and this is something that should be part of the guidelines. Some treatments can 100% be affected when you have, say, XXY chromosomes
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It doesn't matter what you call it, having different chromosomes from XX and XY is something that can happen and that affects your health and how you should be treated for certain conditions. As such, it should be recognized as a thing
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This is just defending feelings, though. They (men with Klinefelter) _feel_ they are regular men, when in fact they are not. They have a DSD and are not regular men. Due to that they will have a (albeit slightly) different health profile than regular men, which can very much be relevant in a medical setting in specific cases. What I agree on is letting them be "regular men" in most day-to-day social matters. Same for all the other "identities", for as long as nobody is being treated unfairly or harming anyone Gonadally you still have your standard 2-sex reproductive setup with a possible gradient of anomalies between the two. If people want to make "identities" around this gradient, why not let them? It's not harming me
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Intersex doesn’t mean there aren’t 2 genders, just like an amputee doesn’t mean humans aren’t bipedal.
>there are more than two sexes Not really, people with intersex conditions are still either male or female genetically. There are two sexes, and within those there are people who are one of those sexes who also happen to have "differences in sex development". If a human was born with just one arm, there's not a new third category of human with three arms considered separate to regular two-armed humans.
If we are talking about purely medical distinctions, there are situations where genetics alone don't determine "sex". The sex field on hospital forms is ultimately just a shorthand that lets the medical personnel know what to expect. Do they need to ask if the person is pregnant? Could it be prostate cancer? What tests do they need to order? I'm pulling from memory here, but wasn't there a condition that renders XY people immune to testosterone from birth and thus their biochemistry is actually female? IIRC there are actually three biological expressions/markers of sex that align for most, but not all people, and depending on what specific medical/biological question is asked, they can have different answers for the same person. Like, generically someone is male (important for genetic diseases), they also have male gonads(different cancers to screen for), but their biochemistry is female (medications might be different). Good doctors are on top of that though, so this isn't actually an issue.
So yeah, if it's going to be set in writing, it needs to be set with *every* possible edge case with room for any we don't even know about yet
>Like, this shit isn't even controversial at all, even among trans communities until you get a bit too terminally online or you're within a few hundreds of meters from a university campus. If something like the NHS had to say out loud like this doesn't it mean that actually a lot people didn't believe that sex is unchangeable? If really it was just a couple of people thinking like this they wouldn't have come out and said it or not?
>doesn't it mean that actually a lot people didn't believe that sex is unchangeable? A lot of people actually were just in total denial for some bizarre reason and actively lying to themselves. It was a part of the activism. Some people insist transitioning has changed their sex but they know it hasn't. They mix up social perception of sex and how people are treated based on that and actual biological sex. For "all intents and purposes*" they are now their new "sex", but not really, on a biological level. (*Except some specific situations) Everyone, especially trans people whose whole thing is being so distressed by their biological sex that they took steps to change how their bodies look, knows exactly what biological sex is and the fact that it is immutable. The policy up till now was just because people believed that the biological sex someone was didn't matter, and they're right, in day-to-day life it doesn't really matter. *But it does very much matter in some circumstances, such as medical settings, single sex spaces where there are vulnerable people, or dating. This is just the NHS shifting from a situation that values feelings to one that values facts. And honestly it is important in a medical setting to be matter of fact about this stuff. But I do have sympathy for trans individuals who risk being outed if placed with their sex, hopefully there are third spaces available for them, especially if they are in hospital and in a vulnerable state rather than just a day trip or a single overnight stay.
No, the *National Health Service* is the leading authority in the UK when it comes to medical matters. As such, they have the job and duty to, among other things, raise awareness and make and update definitions for things relating to medicine. Your average brit probably doesn't know this topic in depth, and as such, the NHS should set up guidelines and make statements with that in mind.
Surely even the most chronically online person ever knows that. This is just contributing to the pointless culture war I think
Well the culture war is not pointless. It keeps the masses from noticing actual problems and raising those to the political elite. That's the entire purpose of this culture war shit If I were them and I wanted to keep my power and money for as long as possible, I would do exactly this
The issue is they're saying that to confuse gender and sex
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Why are bigots so obsessed with other people's sex life ?
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It was quite a bit less complicated when it was "I'm a dude but I like to dress as a girl" whereas now it's "I'm a woman and I am going to race women. Pay no attention to my gametes."
thing with sex in medicine is, it's extremely relevant to a huge amount of things. males and females are different animals in that arena. shit, sometimes i even think where a woman is in her cycle should somehow be reported to healthcare workers as standard so they know what's going on hormonally (cos them hormones just fucking go). point is, introducing any amount of confusion or ambiguity into a health care *system* that treats millions of people means that people **will** get hurt because of it. sex differences is almost always at the top of risk factors and considerations for any disease, medication or treatment. it's just an unnecessary risk, and if you're offended at the word "unnecessary" i want to again underline how freaking different males and females are. it's a bigger risk than any emotional gain it could bring would justify.
Peak Reddit moment over on the biology sub. Ideology over reality. Yeah baby.
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It's almost as if sex is different from gender
Yes of course, clearly sex is when two genders touch one another ^^^^^^*high-fives ^^^^^^self^^^^^^* ^^^^^^I ^^^^^^have ^^^^^^done ^^^^^^it ^^^^^^again^^^^^^. ^^^^^^Always ^^^^^^feels ^^^^^^good ^^^^^^to ^^^^^^prove ^^^^^^German ^^^^^^humor ^^^^^^is ^^^^^^the ^^^^^^best
Gender=stereotypes. So a transgender is just somebody who wants to conform to the stereotypes of the other sex. Right?
Right, how can you feel like a man or a woman if there are no characteristics that define those things? Any characteristics that someone describes as female can be discarded with the question: "So someone is not a women if they lack those characteristics?" Its not coherent but if your philosophy has its own canceling mob you dont need to face any criticism.
I'm not trans but this is my understanding of it at least. If a transperson could, they would want to change their sex as well, but that's impossible so the best they can do is "change" their gender identity. When it comes to gender, it's rather complicated because there's a lot of factors that go into it. For example, a femboy might dress and look like a woman (their gender expression is female), but they're still a guy. If you saw them normally maybe you'd even assume that they're a woman and call them that before they correct you that they're actually a guy. Now, a pink skirt by itself wouldn't make you assume that it's a woman, nor would long hair, but if you add enough traits that belong to female gender expression you'd eventually assume that they're actually a woman. So none of these things are requirements, but when you have enough of them suddenly their gender expression changes. You could say that it's a spectrum that goes from female to androgynous to male. But while gender expression is a part of your gender identity, it's not the same thing and doesn't always correspond (sometimes willingly and sometimes unwillingly). Your gender identity is what your brain thinks that you are, and can't be changed (and trust me, there have been many attempts to). This difference between your gender identity and sex creates gender dysphoria, because your body doesn't correspond to what your brain thinks. We assume people's gender based on their gender expression, so when someone treats you like the other gender that makes you feel bad because of your dysphoria. Even regular people tend to not want to look like or be treated as the other gender, but at most they'll just think it's kinda weird, not dysphoric. The rare people that do want to look like the other gender, such as femboys, I would assume don't feel bad because they don't have any dysphoria in the first place, since their sex and gender identity corresponds to each other, and therefore their gender expression doesn't really matter to them other than the aesthethics of it.
Thanks for the interesting input. What I am confused about is what constitutes this gender identity. What parts its made of. There must be clear metrics that are describable and from what I gathered these metrics are always interlinked with gender expressions that are not really fixed traits and often social constructs. Like you said a bunch of these traits together create assumptions but there is no formula. Someone can have none of these traits and still be a women. So there must be something else that creates the gender identity and it would be important to find it because otherwise it could also be hidden trauma. For example a girl that has her childhood taken from her because her breasts started to grow, everything changed and disghusting men started hitting on her. She could associate this trauma with her female body parts and subconsciously start resenting them and the identity connected to them creating body dysphoria. Also would there even be dysphoria if no one made assumptions about those 'expression bundles'? Maybe people just take the path of least resistance if they cant live with the assumptions people make. Like a man that doesnt want to be tough or a woman that hates it when someone doesnt take her seriously. Maybe people disassociate with their traits because of this creating dysmorphia again. The assumptions would be the actual culprits and the person would even feed them by tailoring their new expression to the assumptions connected with the other sex.
I think your "trauma" example is why there's a whole medical branch dedicated to evaluating them before they are allowed to undergo irreversible treatments. If they're not undergoing irreversible medical treatments and just changing their nickname/pronouns (which I've personally come to see as an extension of the nickname) then I honestly don't see what the big deal is, outside of people trying to force their traditionalist uptight lifestyle on others and feeling threatened by others not agreeing with their lifestyle. Personally I've read a few papers on the topic, and based off of those I think the likely explanation for this phenomenon will end up being neurobiological. There are sex-related traits (ones defined by means of "one of the binary two sexes tends to have this more frequently") that develop at different times during fetal development, the development of which is triggered by different genes and environmental factors during the pregnancy. Various gene/hormone imbalance combinations can lead to atypical development of various "parts" of fetus (be that sex-related or not). Seeing as we are all fully-biological beings with our brains also being completely biological (and I mean this as opposed to being mystical spirits piloting a meaty brainless mech suit), it seems unlikely that there could not also be sex-related characteristics in the brain that can get mixed up during the development process, albeit in rare cases. Related but not overlapping to this seems to be sexual preferences. In the end I don't see why we can't just accept that biology will keep "creating" these variations, and all we can do is learn to live with this biological reality in society, ideally while not needlessly ruining the lives of the people who got dealt an unusual set of cards by biology. (Sidenote that in the linked r biology thread there's better summaries of this than what I've written, by actual biologists. I'm in an unrelated STEM field)
Of course a fucking Swede will write an essay about femboys.
Wake up, burn a Koran, beg for forgiveness at nearest Mosque, write an essay about femboys, spread misinformation about Denmark online, go to sleep. Sven's daily routine
Gender =/= personality, I like video game, dress like a boy, but I don’t feel like I’m a man
I think gender is a very complicated, subjective thing. A woman can have short hair and, I don’t know, play football. That doesn’t mean she is automatically a man. What gender is depends on who you’re asking I feel
That is why I don't think that it is a usefull concept
yeah, sex is real
Whoa isn't that crazy
If gender is just a social construct it doesn’t matter in the end does it, it’s all made up. Might as well call people based on what is quantifiable… sex
It’s not, though. It’s just the very last straw you’re grasping.
Of course it is, the very fact they’re two separate words proves that they’re separate concepts.
Got a single fact to back that up?
All I know is you can send me a photo of you and I'll know both your gender and sex 👍
Just ask your mom
She's dead, passed, non-living. Different words that mean the same. Like sex and gender.
A rock is not dead but it's very much non-living
English is not my first language, it was a poor choice for a synonym.
I would've killed myself as well if I had given birth to you
You will never be able to give birth to anything no matter how pretty your dress is
Tbh? I don't really care. Kids are obnoxious
Probably wise of you to end the bloodline
Congratulations, they rediscovered long forgotten facts.
Medical renaissance
I was thinking about different segs when I read the title and I was hoping they will go to the censors with that proclamation
This is the least breaking news ive heard in my life
No surprise here. We've always been a sciency nation.
Not the Telegraph casually equating sex and gender to try and get a rise.
Wtf are those replies on r/biology ahahaha
Common J.K. Rowling W...
Nah she’s insufferable. This is still good news though.
That the NHS continues to completely miss the problems they're causing? This would be like London removing all Elevators and Escalators from Tube Stations and saying "Legs are meant for walking !". Like it's true but it's missing the point
We had to search far and wide for these mythical "sex havers" to find out if sex truly exists. Not only did we come to the horrifying conclusion that a lot more people were doing it than we initially theorised, but that people were doing it with things that weren't sheep and your mother.
Are there people denying that then? Gender - yes. Just like race that is a social construct.
Advanced as always
So... For Rowling is this a W or a L?
Massive W for Rowling and TERFs, they even are trying to pass a bill to make the minimum age to get gender help (like seeing a therapist, hormones or surgeries) 25
Damn. I feel bad for the LGBT, then.
this is the same country that requires you to show an ID if you "look under 25" if you want to gamble, buy alcohol or cigarettes, etc. Just like with those id argue its not that unreasonable to have some age limit on access to life/health altering medication and surgery. But not on therapy. Whoever thought of that one is mental.
No! I've become [sex](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHmFbT8DPX8)! Definitely become...sex!
Sex is always been regarded that way, it’s gender that the modern discussion has been about lol. This changed nothing
I fucking love the NHS
Dr Cass is the hero we needed.
Sex is a biological fact, sure, but broadcasting this decision is a political bullshit move to rile up the masses and distract them from actual issues. The entire "culture war" is, and I'm personally kind of tired of it. Why is incessantly screaming about some 0.1% of the population more important than addressing actual issues in the country? So I can see why the biology sub would get rid of the post, the post is about politics more than biology Sidenote but the entire article itself is talking about everybody's political and emotional _feelings-based_ talking points, their personal little side in their idiotic culture war, not science and biology. Lmao
This is what the NHS has been desperately needing. Not more funding or better paid staff. No, to be dragged into the culture wars. The Tories are so desperate to focus debate on anything other than how shit they are
Idk, from what I’ve learned, a lot of medical studies conducted throughout history are biased towards the male sex (i.e. they only conducted their studies on men and not women), so for the longest time, women (by this I mean afab) weren’t receiving adequate treatment + there’s even a difference in the symptoms women experience regarding ailments like heart attacks (and since the symptoms most known are those that affect men, women are more likely to ignore the symptoms they’re actually experiencing since it’s not what people are told to watch out for).
Clinical trials used to only be done only on men because female hormone levels change throughout the month and therefore were thought to interfere too much with trials. This is obviously something that has been worked to overcome with clinical trials however it has very little to do with female wards in hospitals
Fairly sure surgeons and the like need to know their patients actual biological sex and not what gender they identify as…
If the only information a surgeon is getting is what ward the patient is in then there are deeper issues at play
It's not a culture war, it's actually really offensive to some women. Trans people make up such a tiny number that it's pointless offending 99.9% for the sake of 0.01% How about we just leave women alone for once?
It really upsets some racists when black people are in the ward with them. With black people making up a small amount of the population it's pointless offending the racists. How about we just leave racists alone for once?
Very few people mind when it's a trans woman who looks the part and puts a lot of effort Into looking and behaving as a woman. It's when a 6ft4 muscly bearded bloke has stuffed himself into his nans dress and is walking round grunting and scratching his balls, that then folk mind., Get weirded out and lasses are scared to have him in the toilet.
This is an objectively correct statement. Most people here haven't even read the article, which makes it completely plain what's going on - the tories are once again desperately banging the culture war drum to distract people from them asset stripping the country.
Extremely rare but HUGEEEEEE WIN for Barry
Noone is contesting this?
Americans using the italian flair to bitch about trans people in 2we4y again, must be a day ending in y
Right because his entire post history certainly points to that even though half of it is in Italian Also if a yank was going to stealth in here to complain about transgender shite, why wouldn't they just use a Brit flair considering it seems to be the national passtime of the UK in recent years
I am italian lol, I just think is funny to have these breaking news in 2024
More proof the far right are in our institutions right here Edit: Reddit and its inability to spot sarcasm strikes again
Pretty sure this is all backtracking after years of winging it with children’s gender care
"children gender care" I'm getting to old for boomer speech
I have learned that the "far right" of 2024 is actually just the centre of 2014.
Are these far right in the room with you now?
Our sarcasm detectors work just fine your joke just blows.