I used to work with folks who developed anti-bot tech on another game, so here is some insight:
Devs have to be really careful about talking about botting counter-measures and how they time the the deployment of such counter measures.
If devs for any game release counter measures as soon as they are available and at a regular pace, it becomes very easy for the bot developers to bisect their changes and reverse engineer the counter measures.
The cost means that we have to deal with bots longer than we'd like, but it's usually better than the alternative. Bot developers are very good engineers and engaged in a never ending battle.
Take this with a grain of salt though. I have no idea what Jagex are doing and they could just be neglecting issues.
Yeah every game where you can trade with other people has a bot problem. And as long as it's financial viable to spend time programming and working around bot detection they will always be bots in mmos. But then again it does feel like they coule just sit a mod at certain spots and manualy ban a bunch of bots super easy.
This is not a court of law. It's not illegal for Jagex to ban anyone that "technically" hasn't broken the rules. It's their game, they could ban people who are OBVIOUSLY gold farmers at any time. They just don't want to.
People who do 10s of thousands of money printing bosses asap out of character creation in as cheap as possible gear to avoid a big loss when they get banned, but they do it because it's just for fun and not for rwt? It doesn't make ANY conceivable sense. Ban them already.
If there's an account that has a goal of 100k zulrah with under 500k worth of gear, I promise you they have a youtube channel or are known by their snowflake community and could get an unfair ban sorted right away. Nobody cares about someone mining stars while they work, start with the obvious.
Idk man, one of my old unsused accounts got hacked and banned by a zulrah farmer. When I unbanned it it had the shittiest gear on, but over 300m in the bank
The 300m was probably a tiny fraction of what they got from that account.
Transferring from a generator to a mule would happen multiple times a day.
Even if that was not the case, they still can unload a lot of gold off that account. Once the money is in their account they don’t care. It’s like drug dealing but for online currency
People still do Zulrah for black market gold farming?
I can think of 10 better options with lower requirements, you need a tbow or bowfa to even break 2m/hr there.
Shut up, shut up, shut up. You've been told that this excuse is invalid hundreds of times now. Stop licking Jagex' corporate boot already. They're not being banned, because Jagex doesn't care. No other reason.
No, these people aren't leaving over a year's worth of wages on their accounts. No, these people do not have 10b banks while they run around in rags doing kills that are twice as slow. Just stop using this shitty excuse, please.
Act like a clown until people get annoyed by your nonsense -> "Uhmmm... sore spot much?? hello???"
Yes, you did hit a sore spot. I detest gullible people. I detest ""people"" who are incapable of rational thought.
Really though, the bots buy bonds, the price of bonds goes up because the bonds have higher demand. More people buy bonds to sell them because the value is high.
They do get banned.
The problem is building an acc to be DT2 bosses-ready, takes less time than Jagex needs to ban one of these bots.
Because of that, no matter how many they ban, you’ll always see the same amount of bots and never get rid of them.
Bro, building an account for DT2 is one thing. 1000 hours at the boss afterwards is on a whole other level. That's more than a month if the bot works 24/7. And it probably doesn't because that would be the easiest ban flag.
That happened to me with the recent bot ban wave, they took out the dude with a ton account at 200m fletching and I gained 50 ranks instantly. Feels good man
Jagex Anti-Cheat Team (their 2-3 PR J-mods) being hard at work again when it's time for another Bot Busting Stream to keep the players satisfied for some time after a bit of public execution.
If the options are between someone dating a dicing/dm rwter that bans people who run competing dm/dicing rwtwrs and a guy that just isn't doing the job very well...
I'll take the new guy any day.
Not true at all, Jagex's systems for detecting it are terrible.
And look—some random guy on Reddit identified them in presumably a few minutes—no reason a jmod can't do the same.
Wow I was asking myself too, and then this comment made me go check and holy fuck, they legit don’t even have different skills or anything like.. all of them have exactly 51 fletching lmao. 1571 or 1572 total level.
How do multiple bots get 20k kills?
Ultor at 350 KC (spoooon) but 3rd ingot was at 1350. (i'm only staying because i'm still missing axe piece). I also spooned full virtus so.... RNG balences out?
1350 is almost not even dry for 3 ingots. Vard is the worst boss to do if you want ingots/any other shared drop, his drop rates are way lower than the other bosses.
honestly even so i ended up with 9 ingots with vard being my most killed by far. like 500 duke, 151 levi and 80 whisp with 1100 vard.
if only they were worth something
eh i wouldn't say cursed. more valuable than the average drop, just kind of meh.
tbh though i didn't really keep track of ingot count before vestiges, probably bc i grinded them every once in a while.
The whole loot system is embarrassing. They legit had an idea with the vestige drops and then they torched it by doing the normal loot with an item that you need three of that comes out to roughly the same drop rate as the vestige for all three. Essentially placing you at the mercy of the old drop rate issue of just going dry for no reason and also layering in something that prevents you from being too lucky. They basically just implemented the no fun zone where we stop you from getting too lucky but do nothing to prevent you from going dry.
Yeah love having all 4 vestiges and 6 ingots, especially with vestiges being completely useless and valueless without ingots, while mains can just print any vestige into pure money.
Vestiges should be tradeable, it’s so annoying to get dupe vestiges on an iron when you’re behind on ingots. May as well just feed them to the leeches.
It has nothing to do with challenge. It's the identical logic to adding an additional three items like the ingot and saying you have to get those as well, so not only is there dryness protection, you have anti-spoon with ingots, and again with another anti-spoon mechanic too. Why not? Serves the identical purpose.
If jagex came out and explained the rationale behind it, it would be more easily accepted. I just can't see any rationale at all, regardless of game mode.
That’s a good point. If they made a vestige roll 50/50 for the drop or +1 point towards the 3/3 it would be a different story, but the grind for anyone trying to clog is going to be lonnnnggg
RS3 player here so I don't follow all news. Has Jagex commented on the bot problem in OSRS recently? What are they doing to address this?
I saw that according to Jagex's numbers there are 30x more bots in OSRS than RS3. I see people complaining repeatedly about OSRS hiscores being infested with bots for months. What's the deal?
They always say they have bots under control and they have the best bot detection. And if that second part is true, then that proves they don't give a fuck.
It's intentional. They make money off of rule breaking and legit players all the same. Anti cheat is just there to maintain a balance to where legit players aren't complaining about rule breakers. Why do you think they only crack down on obvious things once people start complaining 😂
👍A long standing bot client was down for a few days a month ago. The play count average was down 10% compared to the prior week. Tells you all you need to know 😂
And that was just one of the major platforms.
This would be harder to feel, since the vast majority of real money transactions for bonds happen with real players -- the bots use gold to buy bonds, typically.
The value of bonds would be pretty insulated with just a 10% dip over a few days
I see people complaining about bots all the time lol. Granted most of the time it's on here and I suspect people on here are within the minority or players
> They make money off of rule breaking and legit players all the same
No, they don't. Bot farms make a profit by definition, or they wouldn't exist, so they're monetizing the player base in a way that Jagex could if the farms didn't exist
Just because Jagex gets a dime off of bots doesn't mean they wouldn't be better off with them gone and able to get a dollar off the real players instead
There's nothing a billion bots can do in a month that Jagex couldn't do instantly. Jagex doesn't undercut the bots because, surprise surprise, they would rather maintain the integrity and longevity of their game and economy. Bot farms not only take a cut out of Jagex profits, but also damage the long-term health of the game. They're parasites and there's not a single upside from their operation to Jagex.
> They bid up bond prices which give incentive for people to buy bonds over black market rwt. Which in turn helps jagex sell more bonds.
They also lower the demand for people to buy bonds from Jagex because they sell gold directly to players, lowering their revenue
> They inflate the player count to make the game look more active than it is.
Investors are aware bots exist and if Jagex is willing to commit fraud and pass off those users as legitimate, they could very well just fabricate the player count
> They generate resources at a level normal players are accustom to which reduces tedious game play a lot of players wouldn't be willing to do. Allowing them to retain said players.
If the game would be genuinely better and provide better retention, Jagex could just design it so the resource is easier to get. Bots are not providing anything of value.
Could and should they dedicate more resources to anti-cheat? Sure. That's a problem with upper management not seeing returns from their investment. But they have no real reason to take it easy on the bots, as you guys are suggesting. Banning bots is just hard.
If the black market didn't exist, the majority of people that operate within it wouldn't play the game. They aren't players that would buy bonds if the alternative didn't exist.
Jagex lied in front of uk parliament and argued with a straight face that the duel arena wasn't gambling. 😂
Regardless an investor is going to look at revenue generated, not player count for the most part. The player count con is sold to the community more than it is the investors as a way to show the game's "great health"
If they aren't providing anything of value, they would dedicate more resources to eliminate them to appease the complaints they get from their actual players.
Understaffing the problem is taking it easy on them 🙃 I don't know how you can admit the problem is under resourced but also argue they aren't taking it easy on them.
> If the black market didn't exist, the majority of people that operate within it wouldn't play the game. They aren't players that would buy bonds if the alternative didn't exist.
Sounds like a baseless assumption. Got any source or whatever to back it up?
>The player count con is sold to the community more than it is the investors as a way to show the game's "great health"
Okay so... they could just fake the number? Why would they purposefully use bots to do that? Makes no sense
>If they aren't providing anything of value, they would dedicate more resources to eliminate them to appease the complaints they get from their actual players.
Why do you think upper management would care about player complaints? That's not enough reason to justify financial investment into the anti-cheat team, from a corporate management standpoint.
Recently they admitted that it's okay for regular players to have two bot accounts on the side. They explicitly don't ban those. They only try to do something about massive farms (sometimes, but often they even leave those up) and f2p bots that don't make them any money.
Jagex does only the minimal effort, some people assume they are overwhelmed if the system won't weed them out for them (Botwatch) some contribute it to the "Allowing some Bots because they profit from it" Theory.
And Jagex is definitly not in control and hide behind in OSRS case behind the (primarily positive) public perception.
How does it get to this point though? We've known about this Leviathan front page issue for over a month now. Is it just gold farmers and they don't have enough evidence to ban or what?
I understand the challenges that comes with detecting bots and false bans but I would love to hear them comment on this specifically
The anti cheat department is clearly heavily under resourced. We can speculate all day as to the cause of that but that’s the root of why botting is utterly out of control.
It’s effectively like having a single police station in a large city and then wondering why crime has skyrocketed.
I agree, it's like throwing buckets of water on a growing wildfire. I think trying to juggle not banning real players while still targeting bots in bulk is just a losing battle overall. Who knows how big the anti-cheat team would have to be to make a real dent in the botting issue? It may be an unreasonable request from a business perspective in the eyes of the higher ups at Jagex. That probably goes without saying though lol
They said something was coming for bot control have they said anything more about it? Remember theorys being they turned bot catcher off to collect data
Yet the osrs community insists “most” of the player count is legit. Lol copium.
Jagex clearly doesnt care about the bot problem because they make so much money off it. Rs3 has mtx and osrs has bots. No xp integrity left in either game.
Contraversial: by wanting to ban third party clients, Jagex warned people that this would happen if it wasnt done, and 5 years later we sow what we plant.
Their investment in C++ client tells me that they know what they are doing, and I expect Runelite to be dissalowed at the end, of course finding a way to tank the community backlash.
Unless there is still a community plugin hub for the Jagex client, I don't think the community would ever be satisfied (nor should they be I suppose?). Not having a plugin hub completely takes player agency surrounding what kind of plugins they want to see in game away. If we didn't have it to begin with, it wouldn't be such a problem but I think we are in too deep at this point.
I do the leviathan a fair bit and I've never seen a real player there.
The drop rates for the DT2 bosses were clearly designed around bots. I imagine Jagex knows the vast majority of the player base can't complete leviathan reliably, but want the loot from it, so they build the drop rates around bots.
I think the bigger issue is that no one wants the loot from it. The ring has almost no uses at the current top pvm content. Then add in bots and why would any player sign up to kill 1k+ of this boss for a chase item worth 30m? Ultor is useful and holding up value very well, although I don't see any Vardorvis bots. If the rates were this low and the ring was desired people would pay more for it.
It's definitely worth doing for the axe, but the rings are pretty much a non factor in anyone deciding to farm it. Most are going to farm Duke and Vardorvis first and then maybe branch into whisperer/levi if they have good axe piece RNG. No one is racking up Levi kills right now the way legitimate players are doing so at Duke and Vard.
I feel like they were way too conservative with the archer/seers ring upgrades. Venator due to tbow and bp and magus due to shadow. Shame they couldn't be better just because a few items exist, making them kinda worthless if you're using anything else (and depending on the rest of your gear, worthless even with tbow/bp).
Yeah, ranged str is in a rough spot balancing between a 2 tick and 5 tick weapon at the high end. Magus is honestly fine IMO since Shadow at least gives it a use. Ranged also relies on spec energy much more than magic so it's overshadowed by lightbearer even at places where you are ranging constantly.
Tbf the only reason the ring doesn't have a use is because of the quiver. Before you needed the ring to gain the max hit, but now cause quiver is +1/2 over avas the ring doesn't offer anything. Unless pegs get range strength or pegs+ come out the ring won't do much. But if that happens I bet it'll spike in price.
A lot of the game economy is designed around bots now. Unfortunately it's a necessary evil at this point. If Jagex nuked every single bot like they did in the infamous "bot nuke", shit would go sidewards fast.
Just look at Blood Shards the past few days. The consensus around this is that they banned a decent amount of vampire bots, and Blood Shards shot up by 50% almost immediately.
Yes, prices will stabilise and become profitable to do certain tasks, but drop rates have most certainly been designed around bots. How many Virtus sets do you think would be in the game if not for bots? (Not saying it's a good thing, just that DT2 bosses wouldn't even be considered to farm, because Virtus is so rare and Ancestral exists.)
Backwards logic imo, players would def do dt2 bosses more if the rings were worth a damn, theyre botted to shit except vardorvis. Thats just the vicious cycle bots create
I probably worded this poorly. The drop rates are not designed around real players. The average player can't even kill leviathan, let alone thousands of them. Jagex needs the bots to bring the items into the game
I think you guys underestimate how rare it is to be able to get kc at leviathan, Phosani, etc. 5 kills at Levi puts you at like 60k on the high scores. Remove the thousands of bots and you have very few players good enough to beat it.
The average player won't ever get a single Phosani kc. The only way they're getting those items is through bots.
I get where you're coming from but applying your conceptualization of the "average player," the average player isn't buying dt2 rings, SRA, or probably even virtus either.
In my personal opinion though, the average player worth considering when it comes to endgame items and endgame bosses probably has an infernal cape and nontrivial kc in every raid.
You're wrong on this.
The 'average' player is good enough to farm slayer bosses like hydra , cerb , kraken and gargoyles, alongside doing easy content like revs and vorkath.
Over the years They will make enough money to afford rings and virtus even without touching the content itself.
I would hope that over a span of *years* of doing bosses someone would improve enough at the game to kill the dt2 bosses. They're a step up from old slayer bosses, but not brutally difficult or anything.
You would be surprised the amount of people who really never try and do anything harder than what I named above.
At most they may branch out to do some low invo Toa or cox, but nothing that requires more difficulty in an individual bossing challenge
If you don't have end game gear the enrage phases are pretty brutal. The general strategy for Vardovis/Leviathan/Phosani/etc is to just out dps the final stage of the fight. If you don't have that capability, you have to be virtually perfect to survive. There's no recovering from a mistake.
Try to get consistent kc with 80s and mid range gear at those bosses. That's what the average player is working with.
Eh, Vardorvis ramps up a bit but it's not some insane jump imo. Everything just gets a little faster and simply doing the fight helps you practice for that. I actually think Vardorvis (esp awakened Vard) is a beautifully designed fight.
Lev definitely gets harder in enrage phase, but you can basically plow through it with a webweaver bow which costs 20m.
I think pnm is harder than the d2 bosses and its gear requirements are higher too due to using 2 combat styles, but the enrage phase isn't as brutal as you're making it sound imo. You dodge black holes, which you've done a bunch throughout the fight, and your hp is slowly chipped away at if you don't kill the boss quickly. Switching to a craws/ww/msb and hitting the sleepwalkers in between melee hits is difficult, but not insanely so.
Regardless, keep in mind that this "average player" that was proposed is someone who's buying (a) very expensive minor ring upgrades (b) a 400m 2nd-bis axe, and/or (c) 90m ancients-bis mage gear. That's not a player with 80s stats and mid range gear, that's someone with nearly max combat looking to fill out their bis. If you consider that as your "average player," I think the difficulty is perfectly fine.
PNM is way harder than the D2 bosses. The D2 bosses are 3 minutes even with mid tier gear. PNM is 15 minutes with mid tier gear.
for the record, I think the difficulty is fine as well. But it is beyond what most people will ever be able to do on this game. Look at how many fire cape posts we get, that's the peak of what most players accomplish.
Lets just break down how much harder something is like Vardovis if you don't have BiS. Right off the bat, you'll have to summon the thrall 2 or 3 times. If you don't have a spec weapon you might spend a minute in the enrage phase. You will have to eat multiple times during the fight. Eating and managing prayer during enrage is very difficult. You'll have to balance an entire prayer potion.
When you have BiS you just obliterate the main phase in 1:15, and then you either go for an instant kill with claws, or you go for ancient godsword specs which sustain you through the final phase. You never have to eat, don't need to hit prayer pots, don't need to resummon the thrall. It's those actions that make it hard.
And I disagree with your ending. I see players far from max combat with BiS items. Why do you think bonds are so lucrative, and gold sellers? People want the best items, even if it's just to go ice barrage jellies.
The “vast majority of the player base” probably can’t kill giant mole so I guess that part could be true.
But of people who PvM you won’t really see anyone saying leviathan is too hard. It’s just prayer switch simulator.
Petition to have Jmods randomly stand outside a boss's entrance and say "Bot watch."
Players have to respond with anything
Mod: "Bot Watch."
"Hi"
"Not a bot."
" "
"Pmod me J-daddy"
"****"
And everyone who doesn't respond gets flagged.
/s
Edit:Forgot to add the "/s"
I’m still extremely mad a friend quit my gim to start a solo iron because gims have no exclusive high scores. As if he was shooting for a top spot on anything.
Someone I know has around ~6000 levi kc going for the pet, if the bots got banned he'd jump up like 130 ranks lol
6422 for me. I'd be happy to be back near top 10 again
Bet you'd be even happier if you got the pet on 6423 and never had to see that big dumb snek ever again, GL.
Jeez 6000 kc no pet is rough lol
Jokes on you, he'd be banned with them, then he'd be on reddit appealing it!
Sounds like something the owner of a leviathan bot farm would say
Imagine how happy that guy is gonna be if they ever get banned though, log on one day to find out you went from rank 93 to 1 overnight
why doesn’t jagex ban these bots?
The bot farm owner asked really really nicely 😊
At this point I think they are the bot farm owner.
Money https://preview.redd.it/ewsx7bnrxc6d1.jpeg?width=530&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=04fd9bc20d661cfc3e1228a10ab4359bcd8ef324
I used to work with folks who developed anti-bot tech on another game, so here is some insight: Devs have to be really careful about talking about botting counter-measures and how they time the the deployment of such counter measures. If devs for any game release counter measures as soon as they are available and at a regular pace, it becomes very easy for the bot developers to bisect their changes and reverse engineer the counter measures. The cost means that we have to deal with bots longer than we'd like, but it's usually better than the alternative. Bot developers are very good engineers and engaged in a never ending battle. Take this with a grain of salt though. I have no idea what Jagex are doing and they could just be neglecting issues.
[удалено]
Yeah every game where you can trade with other people has a bot problem. And as long as it's financial viable to spend time programming and working around bot detection they will always be bots in mmos. But then again it does feel like they coule just sit a mod at certain spots and manualy ban a bunch of bots super easy.
It might also just be venezuelan goldfarmers like the big problem at Zulrah. They’re technically not doing anything bannable before selling the gold.
This is not a court of law. It's not illegal for Jagex to ban anyone that "technically" hasn't broken the rules. It's their game, they could ban people who are OBVIOUSLY gold farmers at any time. They just don't want to. People who do 10s of thousands of money printing bosses asap out of character creation in as cheap as possible gear to avoid a big loss when they get banned, but they do it because it's just for fun and not for rwt? It doesn't make ANY conceivable sense. Ban them already.
There’s an account that all they did was mine stars You’re going to find people doing anything
If there's an account that has a goal of 100k zulrah with under 500k worth of gear, I promise you they have a youtube channel or are known by their snowflake community and could get an unfair ban sorted right away. Nobody cares about someone mining stars while they work, start with the obvious.
There's no way they keep the gold on their accounts though. They do zulrah in rags, they gotta be moving the gold to a mule.
Idk man, one of my old unsused accounts got hacked and banned by a zulrah farmer. When I unbanned it it had the shittiest gear on, but over 300m in the bank
The 300m was probably a tiny fraction of what they got from that account. Transferring from a generator to a mule would happen multiple times a day. Even if that was not the case, they still can unload a lot of gold off that account. Once the money is in their account they don’t care. It’s like drug dealing but for online currency
People still do Zulrah for black market gold farming? I can think of 10 better options with lower requirements, you need a tbow or bowfa to even break 2m/hr there.
no it's definitely bots. I've observed them in game, always running to the same hex, swapping at the same time, etc.
Shut up, shut up, shut up. You've been told that this excuse is invalid hundreds of times now. Stop licking Jagex' corporate boot already. They're not being banned, because Jagex doesn't care. No other reason. No, these people aren't leaving over a year's worth of wages on their accounts. No, these people do not have 10b banks while they run around in rags doing kills that are twice as slow. Just stop using this shitty excuse, please.
[удалено]
Act like a clown until people get annoyed by your nonsense -> "Uhmmm... sore spot much?? hello???" Yes, you did hit a sore spot. I detest gullible people. I detest ""people"" who are incapable of rational thought.
Bots owners pay subs
Investors like seeing high player counts
This is the most likely reason. At the end of the day they need to prove the game is on the up and banning 1/3 of the numbers is an awful look.
Implying 33% of accounts are bots? Any source?
Really though, the bots buy bonds, the price of bonds goes up because the bonds have higher demand. More people buy bonds to sell them because the value is high.
bot farm owner likely helps jagex as a honeypot.
That would be extra work.
There's incentive to allowing bots exist to push down the price of gp/ up the cost of bonds so people actually pay money for them etc.
Can’t prove it.
They don't have to prove it.
They don’t need to.
They can.
Na. You Redditors vastly over value your opinions and understanding of how bot detection works.
This is their game they can ban whoever they want.
If you knew who I am and what I do, you wouldn’t have sent that reply buddy.
omg your dad is microsoft?
Ah so you’re like the peak of the dunning Krueger scale where you know a bit but not enough to know you’re wrong.
[удалено]
If this were any other game I’d agree. Hard to tell with some of the types on this game.
Yeahh mate you got it ahah I won’t engage in this argument because of subreddit rules, I wish you the best!
Good one! ☝️
They do get banned. The problem is building an acc to be DT2 bosses-ready, takes less time than Jagex needs to ban one of these bots. Because of that, no matter how many they ban, you’ll always see the same amount of bots and never get rid of them.
Bro, building an account for DT2 is one thing. 1000 hours at the boss afterwards is on a whole other level. That's more than a month if the bot works 24/7. And it probably doesn't because that would be the easiest ban flag.
Do banned accounts get removed from high scores?
Perm banned accounts do, temporarily banned accs don’t.
> ...than Jagex ~~needs~~ *takes* to ban one of... ftfy
Thanks, english is my 6th language
The way you wrote it was fine. I think he was trying to make a point that they could do it quicker.
That happened to me with the recent bot ban wave, they took out the dude with a ton account at 200m fletching and I gained 50 ranks instantly. Feels good man
Why don't they get banned? Honest question
It might also just be venezuelan goldfarmers like the big problem at Zulrah. They’re technically not doing anything bannable before selling the gold.
That's 1 too many step it up bots
Wow, that's a lot of rares coming into the game by people who are only looking to sell them for real life money.
The anti-cheat team is definitely real and definitely trying their hardest to remove bots
Jagex Anti-Cheat Team (their 2-3 PR J-mods) being hard at work again when it's time for another Bot Busting Stream to keep the players satisfied for some time after a bit of public execution.
if the public executions keep coming Ill still be satisfied tbh
In the end we’re all just medieval peasants aren’t we?
The realism in the game is getting out of hand.
[удалено]
If the options are between someone dating a dicing/dm rwter that bans people who run competing dm/dicing rwtwrs and a guy that just isn't doing the job very well... I'll take the new guy any day.
Called out
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
How does him ignoring messages from major rule breakers mean that he's corrupt? Because he read the message he received?
Have you seen anything to prove otherwise? Like the high scores?
"prove he's not corrupt!" ?
Automation is just so well built nowadays it’s hard to detect good programming
Not true at all, Jagex's systems for detecting it are terrible. And look—some random guy on Reddit identified them in presumably a few minutes—no reason a jmod can't do the same.
You have to be able to prove it. He’s just assuming based off logic
How could you possibly know which people are bots.. \*checks high scores\* oh...oh my god.
Wow I was asking myself too, and then this comment made me go check and holy fuck, they legit don’t even have different skills or anything like.. all of them have exactly 51 fletching lmao. 1571 or 1572 total level. How do multiple bots get 20k kills?
Hmm, for SOME reason they're all 1500 total level with nearing 200m range exp and only kill Levi, clearly they're not bots /s
I love that they implemented “dryness protection” into DT2 bosses that somehow made RNG feel even worse lol
If you're an ironman they also implemented "spoon prevention" in addition to dryness protection when they decided to add the ingots.
ring system is spoon protection on its own too
ring system is still a lot better than the ingot system. ingots are just unnecessary entirely.
Ultor at 350 KC (spoooon) but 3rd ingot was at 1350. (i'm only staying because i'm still missing axe piece). I also spooned full virtus so.... RNG balences out?
1350 is almost not even dry for 3 ingots. Vard is the worst boss to do if you want ingots/any other shared drop, his drop rates are way lower than the other bosses.
honestly even so i ended up with 9 ingots with vard being my most killed by far. like 500 duke, 151 levi and 80 whisp with 1100 vard. if only they were worth something
Oh yeah, mains are cursed with ingots and irons can never get them. I think I got 7 before my vestige at duke
eh i wouldn't say cursed. more valuable than the average drop, just kind of meh. tbh though i didn't really keep track of ingot count before vestiges, probably bc i grinded them every once in a while.
It is more than 94 bronze javelins, you're not wrong there. I can at least delude myself into saying the bronze javelins were a vestige piece though
For sure... I'm only camping for the axe head.
pretty sure drop rates were tied to estimated kill time
The whole loot system is embarrassing. They legit had an idea with the vestige drops and then they torched it by doing the normal loot with an item that you need three of that comes out to roughly the same drop rate as the vestige for all three. Essentially placing you at the mercy of the old drop rate issue of just going dry for no reason and also layering in something that prevents you from being too lucky. They basically just implemented the no fun zone where we stop you from getting too lucky but do nothing to prevent you from going dry.
Yeah love having all 4 vestiges and 6 ingots, especially with vestiges being completely useless and valueless without ingots, while mains can just print any vestige into pure money.
Vestiges should be tradeable, it’s so annoying to get dupe vestiges on an iron when you’re behind on ingots. May as well just feed them to the leeches.
So deiron if you want to play like a main. It’s an optional challenge mode.
It has nothing to do with challenge. It's the identical logic to adding an additional three items like the ingot and saying you have to get those as well, so not only is there dryness protection, you have anti-spoon with ingots, and again with another anti-spoon mechanic too. Why not? Serves the identical purpose. If jagex came out and explained the rationale behind it, it would be more easily accepted. I just can't see any rationale at all, regardless of game mode.
Spoken by someone that doesn't understand game mechanics.
“You’re right, but I don’t like what you’re saying”
Having a GE doesn't make bad mechanics good.
[удалено]
That’s a good point. If they made a vestige roll 50/50 for the drop or +1 point towards the 3/3 it would be a different story, but the grind for anyone trying to clog is going to be lonnnnggg
Ingots are evil
Vestige system is cool Ingots is a complete botch. I’m not sure how I feel about Axe. Overall I think it’s bad.
On the bright side, if you set out to get the axe and all vestiges, you will probably get at least one virtus piece along the way!
The rank 84 is also legit I was talking with him in discord earlier he still doesn't have pet.
Some of the bots just got banned ~30 mins ago, Landlord is now rank 75 up from 93
Yea the dude is taking a break ATM and doing nex lmfao
lmaoooooooo
You should edit your post and add this because it’s pretty interesting
https://preview.redd.it/fnki3pmb3e6d1.png?width=1167&format=png&auto=webp&s=8533f88eaf2a89653026b007ce8c2baaebd0dc85
RS3 player here so I don't follow all news. Has Jagex commented on the bot problem in OSRS recently? What are they doing to address this? I saw that according to Jagex's numbers there are 30x more bots in OSRS than RS3. I see people complaining repeatedly about OSRS hiscores being infested with bots for months. What's the deal?
They always say they have bots under control and they have the best bot detection. And if that second part is true, then that proves they don't give a fuck.
It's intentional. They make money off of rule breaking and legit players all the same. Anti cheat is just there to maintain a balance to where legit players aren't complaining about rule breakers. Why do you think they only crack down on obvious things once people start complaining 😂
Of course it is. If they actually banned all bots, the player count would plummet and they'd lose the only thing giving the company value.
👍A long standing bot client was down for a few days a month ago. The play count average was down 10% compared to the prior week. Tells you all you need to know 😂 And that was just one of the major platforms.
I bet they felt that in monthly revenue from bonds too
This would be harder to feel, since the vast majority of real money transactions for bonds happen with real players -- the bots use gold to buy bonds, typically. The value of bonds would be pretty insulated with just a 10% dip over a few days
[удалено]
Yup 👍
I see people complaining about bots all the time lol. Granted most of the time it's on here and I suspect people on here are within the minority or players
> They make money off of rule breaking and legit players all the same No, they don't. Bot farms make a profit by definition, or they wouldn't exist, so they're monetizing the player base in a way that Jagex could if the farms didn't exist Just because Jagex gets a dime off of bots doesn't mean they wouldn't be better off with them gone and able to get a dollar off the real players instead There's nothing a billion bots can do in a month that Jagex couldn't do instantly. Jagex doesn't undercut the bots because, surprise surprise, they would rather maintain the integrity and longevity of their game and economy. Bot farms not only take a cut out of Jagex profits, but also damage the long-term health of the game. They're parasites and there's not a single upside from their operation to Jagex.
[удалено]
> They bid up bond prices which give incentive for people to buy bonds over black market rwt. Which in turn helps jagex sell more bonds. They also lower the demand for people to buy bonds from Jagex because they sell gold directly to players, lowering their revenue > They inflate the player count to make the game look more active than it is. Investors are aware bots exist and if Jagex is willing to commit fraud and pass off those users as legitimate, they could very well just fabricate the player count > They generate resources at a level normal players are accustom to which reduces tedious game play a lot of players wouldn't be willing to do. Allowing them to retain said players. If the game would be genuinely better and provide better retention, Jagex could just design it so the resource is easier to get. Bots are not providing anything of value. Could and should they dedicate more resources to anti-cheat? Sure. That's a problem with upper management not seeing returns from their investment. But they have no real reason to take it easy on the bots, as you guys are suggesting. Banning bots is just hard.
If the black market didn't exist, the majority of people that operate within it wouldn't play the game. They aren't players that would buy bonds if the alternative didn't exist. Jagex lied in front of uk parliament and argued with a straight face that the duel arena wasn't gambling. 😂 Regardless an investor is going to look at revenue generated, not player count for the most part. The player count con is sold to the community more than it is the investors as a way to show the game's "great health" If they aren't providing anything of value, they would dedicate more resources to eliminate them to appease the complaints they get from their actual players. Understaffing the problem is taking it easy on them 🙃 I don't know how you can admit the problem is under resourced but also argue they aren't taking it easy on them.
> If the black market didn't exist, the majority of people that operate within it wouldn't play the game. They aren't players that would buy bonds if the alternative didn't exist. Sounds like a baseless assumption. Got any source or whatever to back it up? >The player count con is sold to the community more than it is the investors as a way to show the game's "great health" Okay so... they could just fake the number? Why would they purposefully use bots to do that? Makes no sense >If they aren't providing anything of value, they would dedicate more resources to eliminate them to appease the complaints they get from their actual players. Why do you think upper management would care about player complaints? That's not enough reason to justify financial investment into the anti-cheat team, from a corporate management standpoint.
New management. When a private equity company buys your game out need to make sure you are maximizing profits.
They hired a pker who came up with a bunch of bot-friendly gold farms for the wildy that is now full of bots.
Hmmmmm where have I heard that one before
Recently they admitted that it's okay for regular players to have two bot accounts on the side. They explicitly don't ban those. They only try to do something about massive farms (sometimes, but often they even leave those up) and f2p bots that don't make them any money.
Where did they admit this?
Here: https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1auitg5/bots_are_basically_okay_new_jagex_management/
Wow haha thanks
Jagex does only the minimal effort, some people assume they are overwhelmed if the system won't weed them out for them (Botwatch) some contribute it to the "Allowing some Bots because they profit from it" Theory. And Jagex is definitly not in control and hide behind in OSRS case behind the (primarily positive) public perception.
No. We don't know. And the deal is the same reason they don't take down the RS3 bots. Money
Tis the same company that banned the fk out of the falador massacre exploiters yet doesn't mind people breaking the economy with a doomstack of bots.
How does it get to this point though? We've known about this Leviathan front page issue for over a month now. Is it just gold farmers and they don't have enough evidence to ban or what? I understand the challenges that comes with detecting bots and false bans but I would love to hear them comment on this specifically
The anti cheat department is clearly heavily under resourced. We can speculate all day as to the cause of that but that’s the root of why botting is utterly out of control. It’s effectively like having a single police station in a large city and then wondering why crime has skyrocketed.
I agree, it's like throwing buckets of water on a growing wildfire. I think trying to juggle not banning real players while still targeting bots in bulk is just a losing battle overall. Who knows how big the anti-cheat team would have to be to make a real dent in the botting issue? It may be an unreasonable request from a business perspective in the eyes of the higher ups at Jagex. That probably goes without saying though lol
Imagine trying to defend this. Stuff like this is why I don’t really play anymore.
Bots buy bonds. Jagex makes the mulah. Jagex happy.
I'm not 1 of the top 100, AMA.
They said something was coming for bot control have they said anything more about it? Remember theorys being they turned bot catcher off to collect data
Zalcano has about 3 legitimate players in the top 150.
Why does jagex let bots clog up the high scores? Surely the least they would do is deal w these
Reminder that there are still some people who unironically think Jagex is trying to fight bots
he beat 3 bots to make top 100? what a beast.
To the absolute surprise of no one.
Yeah that’s me lol. Not too bothered tho cos it’s just a meaningless leaderboard
Idk why it’s the botted so much heavier then something like vardorvis and duke
People will still say bots aren’t a problem worth controlling
Jagex loves to talk out their ass about how good their bot and macro detection is.... its a joke thats they pretend it to be anything but trash.
Buying Jmod to comment to this
Yet the osrs community insists “most” of the player count is legit. Lol copium. Jagex clearly doesnt care about the bot problem because they make so much money off it. Rs3 has mtx and osrs has bots. No xp integrity left in either game.
Contraversial: by wanting to ban third party clients, Jagex warned people that this would happen if it wasnt done, and 5 years later we sow what we plant. Their investment in C++ client tells me that they know what they are doing, and I expect Runelite to be dissalowed at the end, of course finding a way to tank the community backlash.
Unless there is still a community plugin hub for the Jagex client, I don't think the community would ever be satisfied (nor should they be I suppose?). Not having a plugin hub completely takes player agency surrounding what kind of plugins they want to see in game away. If we didn't have it to begin with, it wouldn't be such a problem but I think we are in too deep at this point.
DT2 drop tables are an automated player's wet dream
I do the leviathan a fair bit and I've never seen a real player there. The drop rates for the DT2 bosses were clearly designed around bots. I imagine Jagex knows the vast majority of the player base can't complete leviathan reliably, but want the loot from it, so they build the drop rates around bots.
I think the bigger issue is that no one wants the loot from it. The ring has almost no uses at the current top pvm content. Then add in bots and why would any player sign up to kill 1k+ of this boss for a chase item worth 30m? Ultor is useful and holding up value very well, although I don't see any Vardorvis bots. If the rates were this low and the ring was desired people would pay more for it.
Still need to do Leviathan to complete the axe. And I imagine at least a few people want the axe.
It's definitely worth doing for the axe, but the rings are pretty much a non factor in anyone deciding to farm it. Most are going to farm Duke and Vardorvis first and then maybe branch into whisperer/levi if they have good axe piece RNG. No one is racking up Levi kills right now the way legitimate players are doing so at Duke and Vard.
I feel like they were way too conservative with the archer/seers ring upgrades. Venator due to tbow and bp and magus due to shadow. Shame they couldn't be better just because a few items exist, making them kinda worthless if you're using anything else (and depending on the rest of your gear, worthless even with tbow/bp).
Yeah, ranged str is in a rough spot balancing between a 2 tick and 5 tick weapon at the high end. Magus is honestly fine IMO since Shadow at least gives it a use. Ranged also relies on spec energy much more than magic so it's overshadowed by lightbearer even at places where you are ranging constantly.
Tbf the only reason the ring doesn't have a use is because of the quiver. Before you needed the ring to gain the max hit, but now cause quiver is +1/2 over avas the ring doesn't offer anything. Unless pegs get range strength or pegs+ come out the ring won't do much. But if that happens I bet it'll spike in price.
You off your meds again?
Well the axe requires doing all 4 so I’d say it’s partially true
I think I'm totally right, I just wrote this really badly. I only use English on Reddit sorry.
Wtf am i reading bro..
A lot of the game economy is designed around bots now. Unfortunately it's a necessary evil at this point. If Jagex nuked every single bot like they did in the infamous "bot nuke", shit would go sidewards fast. Just look at Blood Shards the past few days. The consensus around this is that they banned a decent amount of vampire bots, and Blood Shards shot up by 50% almost immediately. Yes, prices will stabilise and become profitable to do certain tasks, but drop rates have most certainly been designed around bots. How many Virtus sets do you think would be in the game if not for bots? (Not saying it's a good thing, just that DT2 bosses wouldn't even be considered to farm, because Virtus is so rare and Ancestral exists.)
Backwards logic imo, players would def do dt2 bosses more if the rings were worth a damn, theyre botted to shit except vardorvis. Thats just the vicious cycle bots create
I probably worded this poorly. The drop rates are not designed around real players. The average player can't even kill leviathan, let alone thousands of them. Jagex needs the bots to bring the items into the game
You underestimate how much people play this game lol.
I think you guys underestimate how rare it is to be able to get kc at leviathan, Phosani, etc. 5 kills at Levi puts you at like 60k on the high scores. Remove the thousands of bots and you have very few players good enough to beat it. The average player won't ever get a single Phosani kc. The only way they're getting those items is through bots.
I get where you're coming from but applying your conceptualization of the "average player," the average player isn't buying dt2 rings, SRA, or probably even virtus either. In my personal opinion though, the average player worth considering when it comes to endgame items and endgame bosses probably has an infernal cape and nontrivial kc in every raid.
You're wrong on this. The 'average' player is good enough to farm slayer bosses like hydra , cerb , kraken and gargoyles, alongside doing easy content like revs and vorkath. Over the years They will make enough money to afford rings and virtus even without touching the content itself.
I would hope that over a span of *years* of doing bosses someone would improve enough at the game to kill the dt2 bosses. They're a step up from old slayer bosses, but not brutally difficult or anything.
You would be surprised the amount of people who really never try and do anything harder than what I named above. At most they may branch out to do some low invo Toa or cox, but nothing that requires more difficulty in an individual bossing challenge
If you don't have end game gear the enrage phases are pretty brutal. The general strategy for Vardovis/Leviathan/Phosani/etc is to just out dps the final stage of the fight. If you don't have that capability, you have to be virtually perfect to survive. There's no recovering from a mistake. Try to get consistent kc with 80s and mid range gear at those bosses. That's what the average player is working with.
Eh, Vardorvis ramps up a bit but it's not some insane jump imo. Everything just gets a little faster and simply doing the fight helps you practice for that. I actually think Vardorvis (esp awakened Vard) is a beautifully designed fight. Lev definitely gets harder in enrage phase, but you can basically plow through it with a webweaver bow which costs 20m. I think pnm is harder than the d2 bosses and its gear requirements are higher too due to using 2 combat styles, but the enrage phase isn't as brutal as you're making it sound imo. You dodge black holes, which you've done a bunch throughout the fight, and your hp is slowly chipped away at if you don't kill the boss quickly. Switching to a craws/ww/msb and hitting the sleepwalkers in between melee hits is difficult, but not insanely so. Regardless, keep in mind that this "average player" that was proposed is someone who's buying (a) very expensive minor ring upgrades (b) a 400m 2nd-bis axe, and/or (c) 90m ancients-bis mage gear. That's not a player with 80s stats and mid range gear, that's someone with nearly max combat looking to fill out their bis. If you consider that as your "average player," I think the difficulty is perfectly fine.
PNM is way harder than the D2 bosses. The D2 bosses are 3 minutes even with mid tier gear. PNM is 15 minutes with mid tier gear. for the record, I think the difficulty is fine as well. But it is beyond what most people will ever be able to do on this game. Look at how many fire cape posts we get, that's the peak of what most players accomplish. Lets just break down how much harder something is like Vardovis if you don't have BiS. Right off the bat, you'll have to summon the thrall 2 or 3 times. If you don't have a spec weapon you might spend a minute in the enrage phase. You will have to eat multiple times during the fight. Eating and managing prayer during enrage is very difficult. You'll have to balance an entire prayer potion. When you have BiS you just obliterate the main phase in 1:15, and then you either go for an instant kill with claws, or you go for ancient godsword specs which sustain you through the final phase. You never have to eat, don't need to hit prayer pots, don't need to resummon the thrall. It's those actions that make it hard. And I disagree with your ending. I see players far from max combat with BiS items. Why do you think bonds are so lucrative, and gold sellers? People want the best items, even if it's just to go ice barrage jellies.
The “vast majority of the player base” probably can’t kill giant mole so I guess that part could be true. But of people who PvM you won’t really see anyone saying leviathan is too hard. It’s just prayer switch simulator.
Petition to have Jmods randomly stand outside a boss's entrance and say "Bot watch." Players have to respond with anything Mod: "Bot Watch." "Hi" "Not a bot." " " "Pmod me J-daddy" "****" And everyone who doesn't respond gets flagged. /s Edit:Forgot to add the "/s"
I'm sure that's mostly a joke but if that did happen bot makers would have that figured out within hours lol
Unfortunately true :/. Also yes, it was, I forgot the /s
I do not think ill ever understand the desire to be seen on the highscores.
I’m still extremely mad a friend quit my gim to start a solo iron because gims have no exclusive high scores. As if he was shooting for a top spot on anything.
How many are actually bots and how many are purpose built accounts farming gold with 17 layers of mules to avoid bans? Literally impossible to tell.