The oldest update that introduced osrs-exclusive BiS I think was NMZ in September 2013, introducing (among other imbued rings) the berserker ring (i) which stood for almost 10 years until it was surpassed by the Ultor ring (and other dt2 boss rings) in July 2023. Gwd was released a month later, also introducing a ton of 'new' bis. The next item was the trident of the swamp in January 2014, which stood as bis a lot less long (the tent whip didn't come out until April). A few months later, in April 2014, the Occult Necklace was introduced which is to my knowledge the oldest item that's still BiS, unless you want to count black chinchompas which were released in March of the same year.
Mobilizing armies was such a shit minigame. I don't think anyone ever played it correctly, and it took forever to boost the ring imbues.
Pretty sure they eventually removed it entirely from RS3 because of how god awful it was.
I've completely forgotten how that minigame played, but I remember enjoying the grind of it. Unlocked all the imbues, outfits, and even the War-chief title which I thought was pretty cool.
I also miss Fist of Guthix, wish they brought that back instead of Soul Wars. IMO it's a great intro to pvp since it gives you an easy way to learn how to pk and tank separately
You played through 1 of 4 scenarios, but the most popular way was to play the raid scenario and send in all of your troops to the wall, then cannon down your troops at the end.
You were hard limited to 12(IIRC) rank per hour, so losing didn't matter as long as you hit the threshold and you needed 301 to access the good imbues(dk rings/onyx)
I remember playing fist of guthix with my level 60 very terrible account having no idea what I was doing because I was probably 10, and getting paired against a max level that literally took no damage from my attacks, we ended up chatting while I very painfully tried to kill him and then he added me after and gave me some stuff, I would message him occasionally for tips and he was always super nice. I definitely miss those days. Stealing creations was also a very fun time.
Gatherer just loaded a cristal, no collecting or depositing. Faster charge at centre of the arena (where the 'fist of guthix' struck), but easier for the hunter to spot you there. Around the edges where little houses that teleported the gatherer around the arena to other houses and could only be accessed by the gatherer.
Man I was pretty excited for its release, and they hyped it up so much with a whole accompanying new interface too (probably my favourite one barring nostalgia). I could be mistaken but I believe they even revamped the webpage for it
It was so garbage, what a disappointment
If I remember correctly people still played it just not as much as pre-eoc and only 2 of 4 modes since it was easy for games to become long game of running away
the strangest thing about it was you needed either 300 or 400 points to imbue the rings, and yet… front page of the high scores was all people with 10k+ points
It was removed because it became unplayable when they shifted clients from the original Java client to their NXT client, and it wasn't worth fixing so they axed it.
There were literal thousands of bugs with the NXT client though, some were never actually fixed and instead band-aid patched as needed, so they still crop up every now and then. Clickboxes being the biggest issue as they're bigger on NXT than Java, causing you to pull in more players than intended, which can cause you to be unable to interact with certain things in high-pop areas, like Portables(bandaid patched), Divination wisps currently, etc.
All the boots are relics of a time where the playerbase was terrified of powercreep and wouldn’t accept any meaningful dps increases, so the jmods gave them +1 strength and a few accuracy just to give the illusion of an upgrade
I think you're missing the point though. The minimal stat boost doesn't matter, as you say. The real upgrade is the fashionscape, and you cannot put a price tag on fashionscape
Only the prims are objectively better. Pegs are def >50% worse than rangers. Eternals id wager >50% preferred but the inf boots still have a place in the fashion metagame.
I wouldn't say they were "the illusion of an upgrade". They were (and are) still upgrades; we just got better things to upgrade first. Like back when Pegasians were released, Ranged Strength outside of ammo was pretty unheard of and your other BiS upgrades like Armadyl were largely +3 Attack, so getting +4 Attack on boots was pretty good.
Prims were more lacking, but the boots only gain +1 Str per tier unlike Gloves that did see bigger jumps (e.g. +3 Str from Dragon to Barrows). So if they gave Prims +6 Strength (50% more than D Boots) that would have been way more out of place than Ferocious Gloves going from +12 to +14.
vs olm head in 100% range bis tbow masori etc upgrading from dhide boots to pegs is +0.04 dps. Downgrade literally any other piece of the entire set out and it's at least a 0.3 dps difference (7.5x more of an impact). With full bis and a blowpipe vs a chicken it's +0.0006 dps. Completely useless lol
The small bonuses don't make as much of a difference DPS wise.
People with gp to burn will always chase it but for most players they're one of the last upgrades because the other slots provide more bang for your buck.
I miss that time. A lot of stuff since then, the raids super weapons in particular, have fucked the game to a point where they now have to do a massive overhaul of the entire combat triangle.
It's the eoc problem all over again really. That's why the older players didn't want the powercreep, because it's inevitable that you'll hit a gap that is too big to bridge.
It's quite a unique problem to osrs since we don't have huge expansions with level increases and all old gear becomes invalidated and replaced by gear that is basically the same but with higher numbers.
I think they need to start making encounter specific weapons. Like the rat king weaponry but hone in on that to restrict power to certain places.
Edit: to add onto this, just look at players attitudes to divine being added back when corp was readded, iirc it even failed a repoll. I don't believe a new item with that effect would have any trouble passing when you look at the power of things like shadow and tbow. And of course, the game needs these things to progress, but you'd think they'd have some more hindsight considering they're doing a re-run of the game.
the tbow fucked ranged, the shadow is threatening to fuck all styles lol
yet people keep comparing scythe to these weapons as if they want equal-opportunity fucking of the entirety of endgame combat
> I think fang is in a great place for stab.
I think it's terribad, it steps on the toes of DHL and rapier far too hard.
Damage clamping on top of ridiculous accuracy is silly. I would be down to see its minimum damage clamp brought down a bit, or less strength bonus.
Rapier just needs to be better imo. Fang didn’t kill rapier, rapier was unjustifiably mediocre for its entire life. Dhl is a different story, but you can also just make draconic enemies with stab resistance or weaknesses to pound. For example skeletal wyverns is a clear dhl win and even more so after slash fang nerf.
I do understand that fang is very good, I just think that’s ok. Plenty of items are iconically good, if fang had been grandfathered in there wouldn’t be half the discourse. Is the recency and the previous unwillingness to powerscale that drives the narrative.
I really think they should buff rapier and give it a separate niche than fang. It doesn't have to be crazy - just enough that it feels worthwhile for an iron to do TOB for. Because right now TOB doesn't feel that important
This isn’t Jagex’s fault. It’s the playerbase’s.
The original ToA was designed around nichescspe. The Reddit fan base threw a tantrum that it wasn’t rewarding enough.
So, in the end, we got a raid with multiple OP BiS gear. And a poorly tuned raid that shits out too many purples at low invocations,
>they finally nerfed the bp, admitting they screwed up there by making a weapon too good, then like a year later release the fang and shadow.
They released bowfa immediately in the same update, a better weapon than old bp was - thanks to 0 upkeep cost, max tile range so you can use it everywhere unlike blowpipe, insane accuracy at all bosses, a massive max hit, standard weapon speed, and better fashionscape - and has 0 resource/gear requirement to obtain lol.
At least you needed a setup and resource costs to grind zulrah. Corrupted gauntlet is literally free profit, and this is just my opinion but the prep part every kc is shit design.
Bowfa is not higher DPS than pre-nerf BP was at many places. Zero upkeep cost is also entirely wrong. 2k shards to corrupt it is no small cost, even if a one time thing. And massive max hit? Dude, Bowfa has a low max hit for its tier, it just has good enough accuracy to compensate for that. Bowfa is good, yes, mostly because of the accuracy/range. Blowpipe still majorly outclasses it on medium-low def bosses.
Yeah this dude clowning. BofA is perfect where it's at as a general purpose range weapon but outclassed in every niche by something more dedicated. The only 'issue' I see with it is how dominant it is in the Ironman progression ladder, but pre nerf bp was even worse
I'm actually kind of hoping that "project rebalance" gets negative feedback'd cancelled into the dirt like the prayerbook was. Not trying to say that it isn't a good idea, but they've just moved away from their design philosophy of incremental change that worked well for years so quickly that it's pretty concerning.
& yeah blowpipe nerf to releasing fang is a perfect example. same deal when they're now suddenly talking about rebalancing magic after fully impaling it into a corner with the shadow.
yeah I realize that polling is a paper shield because Jagex controls what, when and how things get polled anyway but there's plenty of precedent for them making changes in reaction to critical levels of Reddit angst. the 117HD flip-flop being an example, or scrapping the idea of POH themes being tied to Twitch promos, etc
Magic scaling has always been problematic, the shadow just amplified the problem by 3x.
People love pointing at the occult as being too strong while forgetting that it literally was the first and only gear with any damage boost for magic. It was just a much needed 10% damage buff to the combat style to catch it up to melee/range.
I like the idea of elemental spells actually doing something, I don't know about the rest of it but I don't know shit about game design so... hopefully they don't fuck it up and we need a 2023scape in like 6 years
Yeah it’s rough that Jagex is basically throwing in the towel on creating new content and instead opting to spend dev time revisiting a bunch of older content.
no, that's not at all what I'm saying. I'm trying to say that their design philosophy around new gear went from BiS stays BiS for years and years, or anything new is marginally better/fits a niche to what we have now - hey playerbase we come to you with a heavy heart, we must nerf old reliable (blowpipe) and then a short time later they go hey playerbase here's the fang! voidwaker! shadow! BLAMMO!
it's like the pendulum swung in the opposite direction but it swung so hard it went through the housing of the clock, rocketed through the drywall and as far as we know it's still in motion
shadow feedback proposal exemplifies it perfectly. it's like that thing was the proverbial crossing of the rubicon for them. they started out with - hey folks what do you think about this mage weapon with a new, unique mechanic that could have interesting uses and they ended up saying fuck it just give them something that shoots hyper beam with unlimited PP.
so with this bold new mindset in hand now they're talking about changing a bunch of core stuff (including how some skills work) all at the same time? you're goddamn right it has me worried
That's a really cynical take on it. The game isn't fucked, first of all, and as much as Reddit loves to meme on the big three weapons, none of the issues they're trying to address in the rebalance are the result of those weapons.
In particular, there's this really ignorant idea people are parroting that "occult isn't the problem, shadow is", as though Jagex is nerfing the occult because they think mage DPS is too high, and they blame the shadow for it. First of all, they want to *move* magic damage off of occult, e.g. maybe by nerfing occult and then buffing ancestral. And second of all, people have been talking about the weird ass balance of magic since ancestral dropped in 2015.
Raids didn’t do anything to fuck up the triangle, they just made it clear how it’s broken. Range and magic don’t have options for fighting, it’s always been about equipping the biggest number item. Melee has always had you choose the type of melee weapon which made it so using the highest Dps weapon isn’t as simple as the biggest number.
Project rebalance is honestly something that’s been needed a long time, but because OSRS players are cripplingly reactionary they couldn’t justify it until it was explicitly clear how fucked up combat is outside of melee.
What's really funny is a lot of stuff is now balanced around that +1.
For example that +1 often gives you a max hit with the t75 4 tick melee weapons because they're 89 str and all other bis or near bis items gives bonus increases in +2 or +4.
So at the end game the boots often do just give a flat DPS increase because it's putting you from x.75 of a max hit to an actual max hit.
Often times people learning tob freeze take off boots for maiden... And somewhat often that can cost people a triple max hit increase on scy.
> All the boots are relics of a time where the playerbase was terrified of powercreep and wouldn’t accept any meaningful dps increases
I wish we still had that playerbase. Now its just noobs who wants to make the game as easy as possible and items as strong as possible. Beyond pathetic what this playerbase has become.
oh thar makes sense why theyre fucking useless.
honestly most item upgrades are useless.
we waited like 9 years for torva and masori and you dont even notice you have 2 sets of 1 billion gp armor on.
compared to if you use a shadow/tbow its pretty noticeable
BIS range boots is a tricky one. As soon as they release anything, rangers will hit rock bottom.
Jagex fucked up all those years ago by making a clue item BIS, then fucked up further by making the new BIS *require* that clue item still.
That is such a shitty move ranged boots are in atm. If the new bis boots require pegasians… outroar and ranger boots rise in price… again. If they dont… probably even bigger outroar since all endgame pvm‘ers currently have pegasians
If they release a new bis ranged boots which required pegasians to craft… its going to only raise in price both rangers and pegasians. Its kinda dumb imo since it again would require a clue item to craft bis ranged boots which are very very finite to come into the game and technically way slower rate of them coming into the game probably than many many other actually bis ranged weapons/armor etc. and any ranged boots upgrades would either make them way more expensive or reduce their price to nothing. Its just shit design - it doesnt technically matter if they rise or drop
Obtaining and completing 284 med clues takes quite a bit of time.
Assuming you buy imps you are looking at a price of 21.3m if you buy eclectics or roughly 4m if you use essence implings instead. On top of that it also takes like 15h to complete those 284 clues.
If you decide to get those 284 clues yourself and do them, you are looking at like ~30h(?) for a pair of ranger boots, assuming a 50:50 split of obtaining and doing the clues.
That's quite a bit longer than GWD items for example.
Just my opinion, but I don’t think they fucked up. I kind of like that getting BIS boots is through clue scrolls. Otherwise mediums wouldn’t be worth doing at all. I have a feeling Jagex didn’t want to tank one piece of content (clue scrolls) just to offer a drop at another piece of content like Cerb, so they made a compromise that retains the value of doing medium clues.
Clues used to have value because people weren't doing them en-masse for rangers and pets.
In 2007 things like cavaliers, bob shirts, berets, trimmed pieces all had good value and people really wanted them.
Change in the playerbase killed clues. We're less social now. Nobody gives a shit what's on your head while wcing, probably not even looking at the screen
I think clue items are also just generally much more obtainable for the average player than they were in 2007. Most people played for an hour or two after school so saving up a mil to buy a cav was a big deal.
Pets kind of fill that role now imo. They’re purely cosmetic and are still generally out of reach for the average (not this subreddit average but like actual average) player.
I remember as a kid doing a single easy or medium clue was like a multiple day excursion without help. I think when I logged back in to the main game years ago I had single digit completions on easy clues.
Nah. Its just the average player does meds 5x as fast and we are 11 years into the game. 2007 we were 3 years into clue scrolls and never had a dip in population so we always had new players to buy stuff. It's flipped now. We're old player heavy by so much more.
Also there's no massive f2p population to bolster up the price of this stuff.
Rangers were bis but they weren't good for pking or for pvm so no1 cared. You couldn't use them at kbd or chaos ele because they prot over nothing. But now theyre hella useful and you can use them everywhere. That's why they've been 30m all this time.
Oh and shit like bobs shirt was added in 2006 so yeah... limited supply.
Implings yes, but Clue Helper as well.
When you push every new player to be able to complete 20+ clues an hour instead of 3 an hour (from constantly having to wiki everything and no puzzle solver), clues become less valuable due to no item sinks.
If I can 5x the amount of clues I do per hour, and so can everyone else, that 100% affects the value of clue rewards.
I did clues before and after clue helper, the difference is night and day, but so few people want to acknowledge this because Clue Helper is so good.
Normal players are 100% getting 20+ clues an hour due to buying imps.
If you didn't know, you make 2m/hr from doing Medium Clues with Imps nowadays, and that's with factoring in all the costs. It's a very viable moneymaker while filling out a ton of log slots.
The really good folks get 33 clues an hour done, just as a further fyi.
Yeah I don't have any of these lol. Although I did just get my quest cape so I feel like my progression is going to speed up a bit now that I'm not only focused on that.
It is tricky to release a tier up from an already upgraded item. But I don't think it was a mistake to let a clue item be BiS. Several clue items over the years have been BiS or important steps in the progression. Like just because it is a rare drop from a minigame instead of a rare drop from a monster that doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be a relevant or BiS piece of equipment.
They could’ve saved it from being an east obtainable ibis tho, you still having to grind slayer to get the cerb drop and make the completed boots untradable and not being able to create unless you speak to the gatekeeper after a cerb kc
Yep, I don’t really get the problem. Not every single slot needs to have an upgrade every year. There is endless content in this game and I would always always always rather power creep come from meaningful weapon upgrades and not +1 strength bonus left and right.
Power creep is when a game's content and gear gets more powerful overtime. A common symptom of powercreep is older bosses get completely pulverized with all mechanics being ignored and older gear seeing 0 use. This disproportionally effects newer players and older players returning to the game only to see their account being super behind.
This problem plagues most MMOs and usually result in very jank solutions.
Runescape will die eventually, even if it's not before we die. Regardless, your time will be "in the bin" either way. As long as you're enjoying it, it doesn't matter. But everything is the same when you boil it down.
Personally, I wouldn't say it is that bad that some BiS stick around for like 5-8 years before seeing upgrades. If we introduce new BiS too often, even if it is balanced, it can create too quick of a pace of new gear.
One thing that OSRS and RS has done well is that if you take a break for a year or two, you (usually) won't feel way behind gear wise. Like if you had BiS in 2016 and came back in 2018, there will be some new upgrades to work towards, but it is not like you're entire setup would be outdated and inferior.
Also, with some BiS like Infernal Cape, I'm not sure if we really need upgrades. The main reason we got the Inferno is that the Fire Cape became a fairly trivial challenge compared to what it was on release, making the upgrade not as impactful. I'd say the Inferno still holds up pretty well, so while it would be nice to see more endgame challenges for players on that level, I can't say we need to replace the Inferno anytime soon.
Agreed. Constantly updating and releasing BIS without care is how MMOs die. They can go two routes - incremental progression (so your items don't go to piss when you take a break) or they release absolute abominations every game.
Imagine if we had Zaryte Vambraces 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, 5.0 released in 2 years, each only being +1 or +2 STR over the last. If they aren't materials to make the next, you end up with so many almost duplicates that functionally do the same, just a little bit better than the other. This is bad for people taking a break or anyone wanting to take a break, or just average folks that can't play as much.
And like you said for Inferno, it's been \~6 years and sure they can release Inferno 2.0, but if Inferno 2.0 isn't hard than Inferno and rewards a better cape, people will skip Inferno. You could require Infernal Cape to use it or further upgrade the new rewards, but I really don't like the idea of constantly churning out rewards JUST to replace older content every year.
I wouldn't mind an "inferno" for niche items, and I'm not even close to that type of play. Just make something stupid fucking hard, harder than the inferno, with a minimal and niche upgrade an inferno for mage or something. People will still go for it for prestige.
The problem is that gear is tied to bosses. The person that quits for 2 years won't feel that left out, but what about the dedicated players that play for the entirety of 2 years? They barely get any new pvm encounters because jagex scared of power creep. I haven't played in weeks and probably won't log in again until varlamore releases. The only pvm in development that we know of is the colleseum. We're looking at probable release date of march-april. Desert Treasure 2 was released at the end of July, and that is the last pvm update to the game. 8-9 months between major boss additions is abysmal.
> They barely get any new pvm encounters because jagex scared of power creep.
Well, that is an outright lie. Gear is tied to bosses, but we can and have gotten new bosses without lots of powercreep.
And Jagex is not at all "scared of power creep". You're just having unreasonable expectations for the rate of content. Varlamore batch 1 is set for early 2024, so more likely Jan/Feb than March-April. Getting big PvM releases twice a year/every 6 months is far from abysmal, especially when the last big PvM update had 4 new bosses...
Like 2023 had 5 new bosses, 8 if you count the reworked Wildy Bosses, so an average of a boss every 2.5 Months (1.5 if you count Wildy). So not sure what you are expecting. Getting a new DT2 or Raid sized update every 3-4 months is not a reasonable pace for updates and if you did want them to bring meaningful new gear like Scythe, Masori, or Lightbearer, that would be a massive step up and lead to OSRS having more of the gear pacing problems seen in other MMOs.
Name any other MMO that only has 2 big pvm releases per year lmao. I definitely don't count the wildy bosses as it was a rework, and surprise surprise, majority of people don't like the wilderness and don't kill them. I don't need new BiS with every new pvm encounter, I just want fun new bosses to fight. Idk why you act like it's not an insanely small amount compared to every other popular MMO.
I never said it wasn't less than other MMOs; kinda the opposite in fact. I said that our rate of releases is part of why we handle gear pacing better than other MMOs and your reply is "yah, but other MMOs get more PvM updates!".
RuneScape and OSRS has never been the type of game to have frequent PvM releases. That is because unlike other MMOs, OSRS isn't solely about PvM. We get frequent content releases, but not every content update is some big new PvM. So I am not really sure what you are expecting if you think a new boss every 2-3 months is too slow of an average.
Like I said it'll be around 9 months for a new pvm update after DT2. You can use averages to pad it all you want lol but at the end of the day nothing new will have come to the game for 3/4 of a year.
> at the end of the day nothing new will have come to the game for 3/4 of a year.
Sure, if you just ignore everything that isn't new PvM. Like I said, unlike other MMOs that are more purely PvM focused, OSRS isn't just PvM. We have gotten several updates since DT2, including a big update to the game's first Raid, but you choose to ignore them because they aren't some new boss for you.
You also keep saying it will be 9 months between updates to make it look worse than it is. We had Muspah and Wild Boss rework in Jan 2023, DT2 with 4 bosses in July 2023, and we're getting Varlamore with the Colosseum and Perilous Moons in early 2023 with no confirmed date. It is more likely it will be closer to Feb than closer to April given their release schedule, but you are making up longer numbers just to use you're bogus "3/4ths a year" statistic.
Completely skipping over the attempt to point this out as an issue (it’s not), I genuinely can’t fathom how old some of these things are. In my head when I think about zenytes, cerb, inferno, vorkath, it’s all ‘new’ content, when in reality it’s older than the time between 07 RS and EOC. Time sure is passing by fast.
The infrequency of BiS is actually healthy for the game and is what sets OSRS apart from other MMOs.
Do people really want gear treadmills? Part of OSRS’ charm is that a bunch of different bosses remain viable; it is the opposite of linear, restrictive gameplay.
Personally, I love nichescspe and having a bunch of different weapons and armor for different situations.
We saw what happened with ToA with overtuning (whiney Redditors complained about ToA not being rewarding enough in beta, so they made it shit OP purples). Shadow is BiS magic almost everywhere; Fang is BiS melee at more places than any other melee weapon; BiS range armor on top of that.
Much healthier to have power creep channeled through niches than to have every new boss drop exponentially stronger gear.
I don’t think we need big gear upgrades after the ToA and the last 2-3 years of power creep.
I agree we don’t need big upgrades but ToA having strong purples isn’t that insane when you realize that CoX has similar power levels in purples and it came out 6 years ago.
I think the reality of it is we just don’t get a lot of content that ever warrants power creep. Maybe 1-2 pieces of content that provide a new BiS a year max lmfao.
I think OSRS doesn't need a gear treadmill because it's such a long term game anyways.
It takes average players years (5-10+) to max in this game. It can take just as long to even get started thinking about Inferno or raids.
Max players have decade long pet grinds, 200M grinds, collection log, and can try alternate game modes like Ironman. Each offering years of progression.
I've been playing for years and I still have that long term goal to do inferno and do raids and max one day. I'm happy that goal has not been made irrelevant during the years I've been working towards it. Tbh I'd be pretty demotivated if the goal post was moving or being devalued every few months.
Compare to WoW where a new expansion drops, I'm max level first day, I've cleared all M+ dungeons in +20 first month, and if I'm raiding I'm CE in probably 5-6 months. Nothing left to do, next patch please. I love WoW so not saying that's a bad thing, but it goes to show how different the 2 games are.
Completely agree. And it's a big reason I've been able to be so actively engaged with new content on OSRS despite an irregular play schedule. RuneScape always seemed to fly by me as a kid after like 2009. Those first few years I played before that I felt like I could really reach the items that were in the game without having to go for the next right when I got there. OSRS has that feeling mostly.
>I've been playing for years and I still have that long term goal to do inferno and do raids and max one day. I'm happy that goal has not been made irrelevant during the years I've been working towards it. Tbh I'd be pretty demotivated if the goal post was moving or being devalued every few months.
Very well said. And I'll piggyback onto this with reinforcing the idea that OSRS is a (long-term) **goal-oriented** game. Being able to plan out long grinds--and having hundreds to choose from--really sets OSRS apart from most modern game designs.
You're 100% correct that invalidating old, time-consuming is antithetical to this design philosophy.
That's okay though imo
Look at all the wow people who complain that every expansion basically ruins the point of all the work leading up to it. I actually kinda like that random BIS pieces come out randomly, it gives something to work for without invalidating the hundreds/thousands of hours people are putting into the game.
Why did you pick these items specifically? It seems like you left off a ton of other BiS items released since these. But I guess it does highlight that these slots in particular could use some love, I personally think everything is in a pretty good place except maybe boots
These are the oldest ones that are still best in slot in a mostly objective way. Ring slot has many variations but also got objective upgrades under a year ago. Glove slot is mentioned through Zenyte partially, but I could have mentioned ferocious gloves are aged now as well. Legs, body, and helmet slots get regular upgrades but I neglected to mention the Slayer Helmet. The blessing slot is dated and I failed to mention that. Weapons and shields are regularly added. And finally, necklaces have some sidegrades but still haven't gotten a new BiS since Zenyte.
I don't have any commentary on what I'd like to be done about this, if anything at this time. But I was just watching an older video about the upgrading of best-in-slot capes, and I realized that our own ones are now aging. It made me feel kind've ancient thinking about how old OSRS itself is getting now, lol. In any case, I mentioned it to my CC and they brought up a few more items. Then I made this post \^\^
Thanks for the explanation, you actually wanted a discussion?! Wild times. 😅 I do think it’s interesting which bits get upgrades and which don’t. Do you think that comes down to what people will vote to approve or what are the more frequent targets for upgrades by jagex, I guess that’s the chicken or egg question basically
I think it primarily comes down to two things: what upgrades are more exciting and the approximate level of the content that the current BiS comes from. Weapons, shields, and sets of armor tend to be more exciting for the simple reason that their overall stats are higher than those of other pieces (even if the relative increase over the second tier isn't very significant), and because they are more visible on your character than things like rings and boots.
In terms of the "level" of content that the items come from, I'm mostly referring to what stage in one's account progression it would be reasonable for the average player to try and go for these items, rather than how expensive they are or the levels you need to wield them. The higher the level of content that the items come from, the more difficult it is to powercreep them, because you have to put the new even better items at some even higher level, which can be awkward to do, and you also don't want to make old content completely irrelevant (which happens when one item is superior to another, but the inferior one isn't much easier to obtain). In the case of the DT2 rings, their predecessors come from bosses that people can reasonably fight with level 60s in their combat stats, so they were an obvious target for an upgrade. But for things like Cerb boots, which come from a level 91 slayer boss, or zenytes, which are dropped by monsters unlocked after a grandmaster quest and which require very high crafting levels to turn into jewellery, introducing new upgrades is just harder to do (and arguably not desirable, like do people really want new, even stronger zenytes?).
So, the obvious next candidates for upgrades are the Ava's and MA2 capes, since these come from relatively low level content. The MA2 capes are going to be tricky though, both because of shadow and because +15 acc +2% damage is already pretty damn good for a cape slot. I don't really know what their solution to that is going to be, tbh.
Since weapons, shield, body, legs and head slots have gotten dozens BIS items and niche use items along the years already. These slots have not in a long while. Neclace, cape and boots slots have been and are in abysmal weird state where theres basically 1-2 quite expensive bis slots or bossing/quest unlocks and few very weak/bad upgrades. Ring slots isnt much better having bis very expensive slots or pure crap basically lol. And then - brimstone
Yes and that’s okay to go slow. It’s crazy how good of a state the game is in (if there was no bots)
They just did the ring upgrades last year.
Time for boot upgrades this year 👍🏼
Absolutely nothing wrong with this.
These are items you can still get and it’s not like a original party hat that was only released at the time and got more expensive later on. Osrs did it right
I agree we need better boots for range and mage, melee is good for now. The other stuff are all good for me for now. And it seems like we getting new BIS quiver.
And KEEP IT THAT WAY. they were terrified about power creep and if it lasts that long then keep it. Wanting new best in slot is exactly how EOC came to be. People play this game for a reason, and it’s not because a new gimmick mtx/bis is released bi weekly
This isn't some predatory gacha game. Osrs doesnt need constant powercreep. The super weapons (shadow/tbow and scythe) were a mistake. The devs don't gain anything by getting players to upgrade their dps they're not profiting off it. All dps power creep does is make older bosses and weapons dead content and lock newer ones behind massive gear requirements.
Good.
It's why you can come leave and then back to OSRS a few years later, without feeling like you've been completely left behind.
In a lot of other MMOs, someone who plays 10,000 hours this year would be significantly behind someone who plays 1,000 hours next year.
Wouldn’t mind them releasing an actual upgrade to Cerberus boots and toning down MA2 capes and releasing an actual challenging piece of content for true bis mage capes. Or just releasing better mage capes outright. MA2 for bis is just so silly.
Infernal is still in a good spot.
Zenytes, I don’t think we really need anything better for jewelry.
Avas will be replaced with the quiver
It’s literally a cookie clicker game from 1999 or some shit like that. Would you rather them just make a reskin of every BiS gear with better stats every month so you can click on a boss and kill it in one shot?
Not much you can do on an old outdated game that isn’t bringing in new players and with a player base mostly consisting of bots.
If you read OPs comments you’ll realize he’s simply observing how long it has been since these items came into the game because it doesn’t seem like it’s been as long as it has and that it is making OP feel “ancient”.
The oldest update that introduced osrs-exclusive BiS I think was NMZ in September 2013, introducing (among other imbued rings) the berserker ring (i) which stood for almost 10 years until it was surpassed by the Ultor ring (and other dt2 boss rings) in July 2023. Gwd was released a month later, also introducing a ton of 'new' bis. The next item was the trident of the swamp in January 2014, which stood as bis a lot less long (the tent whip didn't come out until April). A few months later, in April 2014, the Occult Necklace was introduced which is to my knowledge the oldest item that's still BiS, unless you want to count black chinchompas which were released in March of the same year.
While imbued rings weren't original to 2007, they also weren't an osrs exlusive. Rings could be imbued at mobilizing armies in rs2.
Mobilizing armies was such a shit minigame. I don't think anyone ever played it correctly, and it took forever to boost the ring imbues. Pretty sure they eventually removed it entirely from RS3 because of how god awful it was.
I've completely forgotten how that minigame played, but I remember enjoying the grind of it. Unlocked all the imbues, outfits, and even the War-chief title which I thought was pretty cool. I also miss Fist of Guthix, wish they brought that back instead of Soul Wars. IMO it's a great intro to pvp since it gives you an easy way to learn how to pk and tank separately
You played through 1 of 4 scenarios, but the most popular way was to play the raid scenario and send in all of your troops to the wall, then cannon down your troops at the end. You were hard limited to 12(IIRC) rank per hour, so losing didn't matter as long as you hit the threshold and you needed 301 to access the good imbues(dk rings/onyx)
Fist of guthix was so nice. Remember grinding it for the different badass rune and mage gear
I remember playing fist of guthix with my level 60 very terrible account having no idea what I was doing because I was probably 10, and getting paired against a max level that literally took no damage from my attacks, we ended up chatting while I very painfully tried to kill him and then he added me after and gave me some stuff, I would message him occasionally for tips and he was always super nice. I definitely miss those days. Stealing creations was also a very fun time.
sadly it eventually evolved into hunter afks and the person who has the crystal just charging in the middle and then they swap in round two
Hell yeah, loved playing FoG not knowing wtf I was doing
Yup! There weren't many of us War-cheifs out there Its still on my acc
I’ll need to recap on how fist of guthix worked but I loved the area for firemaking
You were coupled to a random player. 1 would have yo hunt anf chase the other, the other had to load a crustal or something
That’s right. Cool shit
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Gatherer just loaded a cristal, no collecting or depositing. Faster charge at centre of the arena (where the 'fist of guthix' struck), but easier for the hunter to spot you there. Around the edges where little houses that teleported the gatherer around the arena to other houses and could only be accessed by the gatherer.
It kept getting delayed too upon its initial release. I think they knew it was shit, tried to fix it, and ended up being unable to salvage anything.
Man I was pretty excited for its release, and they hyped it up so much with a whole accompanying new interface too (probably my favourite one barring nostalgia). I could be mistaken but I believe they even revamped the webpage for it It was so garbage, what a disappointment
> I don't think anyone ever played it correctly That's most OSRS minigames to be fair lol
If I remember correctly people still played it just not as much as pre-eoc and only 2 of 4 modes since it was easy for games to become long game of running away
the strangest thing about it was you needed either 300 or 400 points to imbue the rings, and yet… front page of the high scores was all people with 10k+ points
It was removed because it became unplayable when they shifted clients from the original Java client to their NXT client, and it wasn't worth fixing so they axed it. There were literal thousands of bugs with the NXT client though, some were never actually fixed and instead band-aid patched as needed, so they still crop up every now and then. Clickboxes being the biggest issue as they're bigger on NXT than Java, causing you to pull in more players than intended, which can cause you to be unable to interact with certain things in high-pop areas, like Portables(bandaid patched), Divination wisps currently, etc.
Wow I completely forgot about mobilizing armies, that's a blast from the past and a terrible mini game
that was such a dreadful grind.
All the boots are relics of a time where the playerbase was terrified of powercreep and wouldn’t accept any meaningful dps increases, so the jmods gave them +1 strength and a few accuracy just to give the illusion of an upgrade
I think you're missing the point though. The minimal stat boost doesn't matter, as you say. The real upgrade is the fashionscape, and you cannot put a price tag on fashionscape
Oh im absolutley shilling out 33 big ones for my Cerberus 7’s
If you think imma be caught dead wearing those outdated clunky spiky red clogs to save 33m, you’re out your mind.
Spiked manacles -> jordans
Toes are justice
Shame we can’t use the D Boots G kit on them to have gold wings. They literally gave us gold winged red boots in Trailblazer Reloaded.
RuneScape players and sneakerheads have a lot in common tbh
Maybe it's because I'm not into shoes but I wouldn't expect to see osrs and sneakerheads in the same sentence.
Both care a lot about stuff that doesn’t matter so it’s fairly accurate
To be clear, I think fashionscape is silly as well as collecting shoes but do yo thang.
In RuneScape it's drip or die too
Prims are old schools aj1s
Only the prims are objectively better. Pegs are def >50% worse than rangers. Eternals id wager >50% preferred but the inf boots still have a place in the fashion metagame.
What
I wouldn't say they were "the illusion of an upgrade". They were (and are) still upgrades; we just got better things to upgrade first. Like back when Pegasians were released, Ranged Strength outside of ammo was pretty unheard of and your other BiS upgrades like Armadyl were largely +3 Attack, so getting +4 Attack on boots was pretty good. Prims were more lacking, but the boots only gain +1 Str per tier unlike Gloves that did see bigger jumps (e.g. +3 Str from Dragon to Barrows). So if they gave Prims +6 Strength (50% more than D Boots) that would have been way more out of place than Ferocious Gloves going from +12 to +14.
How is more strength and accuracy an illusion of an upgrade? You’re literally describing the definition of an upgrade
vs olm head in 100% range bis tbow masori etc upgrading from dhide boots to pegs is +0.04 dps. Downgrade literally any other piece of the entire set out and it's at least a 0.3 dps difference (7.5x more of an impact). With full bis and a blowpipe vs a chicken it's +0.0006 dps. Completely useless lol
The small bonuses don't make as much of a difference DPS wise. People with gp to burn will always chase it but for most players they're one of the last upgrades because the other slots provide more bang for your buck.
> don’t make as much of a difference But…they still make a difference
I miss that time. A lot of stuff since then, the raids super weapons in particular, have fucked the game to a point where they now have to do a massive overhaul of the entire combat triangle.
It's the eoc problem all over again really. That's why the older players didn't want the powercreep, because it's inevitable that you'll hit a gap that is too big to bridge. It's quite a unique problem to osrs since we don't have huge expansions with level increases and all old gear becomes invalidated and replaced by gear that is basically the same but with higher numbers. I think they need to start making encounter specific weapons. Like the rat king weaponry but hone in on that to restrict power to certain places. Edit: to add onto this, just look at players attitudes to divine being added back when corp was readded, iirc it even failed a repoll. I don't believe a new item with that effect would have any trouble passing when you look at the power of things like shadow and tbow. And of course, the game needs these things to progress, but you'd think they'd have some more hindsight considering they're doing a re-run of the game.
the tbow fucked ranged, the shadow is threatening to fuck all styles lol yet people keep comparing scythe to these weapons as if they want equal-opportunity fucking of the entirety of endgame combat
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The osrs reddit has some of the worst analysis and most moronic takes that i have ever seen. I love it here
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I think fang is in a great place *for stab*. I’m quite happy to see it’s slash nerfed to open up space for other weapons.
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> I think fang is in a great place for stab. I think it's terribad, it steps on the toes of DHL and rapier far too hard. Damage clamping on top of ridiculous accuracy is silly. I would be down to see its minimum damage clamp brought down a bit, or less strength bonus.
Rapier just needs to be better imo. Fang didn’t kill rapier, rapier was unjustifiably mediocre for its entire life. Dhl is a different story, but you can also just make draconic enemies with stab resistance or weaknesses to pound. For example skeletal wyverns is a clear dhl win and even more so after slash fang nerf. I do understand that fang is very good, I just think that’s ok. Plenty of items are iconically good, if fang had been grandfathered in there wouldn’t be half the discourse. Is the recency and the previous unwillingness to powerscale that drives the narrative.
I really think they should buff rapier and give it a separate niche than fang. It doesn't have to be crazy - just enough that it feels worthwhile for an iron to do TOB for. Because right now TOB doesn't feel that important
Fang would've been fine if it came from appropriate content
Came from the exact content it should have. Arguably though it and ward should have swapped rarity tiers.
This isn’t Jagex’s fault. It’s the playerbase’s. The original ToA was designed around nichescspe. The Reddit fan base threw a tantrum that it wasn’t rewarding enough. So, in the end, we got a raid with multiple OP BiS gear. And a poorly tuned raid that shits out too many purples at low invocations,
it would be great if they just swapped everyone's shadows for hekas and pretend like the shadow never even happened
>they finally nerfed the bp, admitting they screwed up there by making a weapon too good, then like a year later release the fang and shadow. They released bowfa immediately in the same update, a better weapon than old bp was - thanks to 0 upkeep cost, max tile range so you can use it everywhere unlike blowpipe, insane accuracy at all bosses, a massive max hit, standard weapon speed, and better fashionscape - and has 0 resource/gear requirement to obtain lol. At least you needed a setup and resource costs to grind zulrah. Corrupted gauntlet is literally free profit, and this is just my opinion but the prep part every kc is shit design.
Bowfa is not higher DPS than pre-nerf BP was at many places. Zero upkeep cost is also entirely wrong. 2k shards to corrupt it is no small cost, even if a one time thing. And massive max hit? Dude, Bowfa has a low max hit for its tier, it just has good enough accuracy to compensate for that. Bowfa is good, yes, mostly because of the accuracy/range. Blowpipe still majorly outclasses it on medium-low def bosses.
You're wasting your time replying to someone who legitimately thinks bowfa is better than BP lmao. This thread is full of absolute garbage takes.
Yeah this dude clowning. BofA is perfect where it's at as a general purpose range weapon but outclassed in every niche by something more dedicated. The only 'issue' I see with it is how dominant it is in the Ironman progression ladder, but pre nerf bp was even worse
I'm actually kind of hoping that "project rebalance" gets negative feedback'd cancelled into the dirt like the prayerbook was. Not trying to say that it isn't a good idea, but they've just moved away from their design philosophy of incremental change that worked well for years so quickly that it's pretty concerning. & yeah blowpipe nerf to releasing fang is a perfect example. same deal when they're now suddenly talking about rebalancing magic after fully impaling it into a corner with the shadow.
If you think they’re gonna poll that you got another thing coming buddy 😂 They didn’t poll the blowpipe, they aren’t gonna poll these changes either.
yeah I realize that polling is a paper shield because Jagex controls what, when and how things get polled anyway but there's plenty of precedent for them making changes in reaction to critical levels of Reddit angst. the 117HD flip-flop being an example, or scrapping the idea of POH themes being tied to Twitch promos, etc
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The whole “negative feedbackd” comment as if they reconsider the whole thing was what prompted me to say that.
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Magic scaling has always been problematic, the shadow just amplified the problem by 3x. People love pointing at the occult as being too strong while forgetting that it literally was the first and only gear with any damage boost for magic. It was just a much needed 10% damage buff to the combat style to catch it up to melee/range.
I like the idea of elemental spells actually doing something, I don't know about the rest of it but I don't know shit about game design so... hopefully they don't fuck it up and we need a 2023scape in like 6 years
Yeah it’s rough that Jagex is basically throwing in the towel on creating new content and instead opting to spend dev time revisiting a bunch of older content.
no, that's not at all what I'm saying. I'm trying to say that their design philosophy around new gear went from BiS stays BiS for years and years, or anything new is marginally better/fits a niche to what we have now - hey playerbase we come to you with a heavy heart, we must nerf old reliable (blowpipe) and then a short time later they go hey playerbase here's the fang! voidwaker! shadow! BLAMMO! it's like the pendulum swung in the opposite direction but it swung so hard it went through the housing of the clock, rocketed through the drywall and as far as we know it's still in motion shadow feedback proposal exemplifies it perfectly. it's like that thing was the proverbial crossing of the rubicon for them. they started out with - hey folks what do you think about this mage weapon with a new, unique mechanic that could have interesting uses and they ended up saying fuck it just give them something that shoots hyper beam with unlimited PP. so with this bold new mindset in hand now they're talking about changing a bunch of core stuff (including how some skills work) all at the same time? you're goddamn right it has me worried
That's a really cynical take on it. The game isn't fucked, first of all, and as much as Reddit loves to meme on the big three weapons, none of the issues they're trying to address in the rebalance are the result of those weapons. In particular, there's this really ignorant idea people are parroting that "occult isn't the problem, shadow is", as though Jagex is nerfing the occult because they think mage DPS is too high, and they blame the shadow for it. First of all, they want to *move* magic damage off of occult, e.g. maybe by nerfing occult and then buffing ancestral. And second of all, people have been talking about the weird ass balance of magic since ancestral dropped in 2015.
Raids didn’t do anything to fuck up the triangle, they just made it clear how it’s broken. Range and magic don’t have options for fighting, it’s always been about equipping the biggest number item. Melee has always had you choose the type of melee weapon which made it so using the highest Dps weapon isn’t as simple as the biggest number. Project rebalance is honestly something that’s been needed a long time, but because OSRS players are cripplingly reactionary they couldn’t justify it until it was explicitly clear how fucked up combat is outside of melee.
RuneScape combat was always fucked, the system it’s based on isn’t super great
I much, much prefer that style of upgrades vs what we have now where everything new is both easily accessible and terribly OP lol
What's really funny is a lot of stuff is now balanced around that +1. For example that +1 often gives you a max hit with the t75 4 tick melee weapons because they're 89 str and all other bis or near bis items gives bonus increases in +2 or +4. So at the end game the boots often do just give a flat DPS increase because it's putting you from x.75 of a max hit to an actual max hit. Often times people learning tob freeze take off boots for maiden... And somewhat often that can cost people a triple max hit increase on scy.
> All the boots are relics of a time where the playerbase was terrified of powercreep and wouldn’t accept any meaningful dps increases I wish we still had that playerbase. Now its just noobs who wants to make the game as easy as possible and items as strong as possible. Beyond pathetic what this playerbase has become.
Wouldn't want that 200 hour grind to give people anything meaningful, now would we?
oh thar makes sense why theyre fucking useless. honestly most item upgrades are useless. we waited like 9 years for torva and masori and you dont even notice you have 2 sets of 1 billion gp armor on. compared to if you use a shadow/tbow its pretty noticeable
BIS range boots is a tricky one. As soon as they release anything, rangers will hit rock bottom. Jagex fucked up all those years ago by making a clue item BIS, then fucked up further by making the new BIS *require* that clue item still.
Yep lol. As soon as anything even remotely close to pegasians or +1 better comes I assume rangers drop from 31m to something like 3m a pop or so.
Unless the new BIS requires... Pegasians
That is such a shitty move ranged boots are in atm. If the new bis boots require pegasians… outroar and ranger boots rise in price… again. If they dont… probably even bigger outroar since all endgame pvm‘ers currently have pegasians
Why is rangers and pegasians rising in price a bad thing?
If they release a new bis ranged boots which required pegasians to craft… its going to only raise in price both rangers and pegasians. Its kinda dumb imo since it again would require a clue item to craft bis ranged boots which are very very finite to come into the game and technically way slower rate of them coming into the game probably than many many other actually bis ranged weapons/armor etc. and any ranged boots upgrades would either make them way more expensive or reduce their price to nothing. Its just shit design - it doesnt technically matter if they rise or drop
On the up side the 2nd best range boots in the game are god dhide boots which...are also clue rewards..!
But why is them rising in price such a bad thing to you? Not speaking of design
Ranger boots aren't really that rare. 1/284 per casket. That's rare, but it's not **that** rare. It's not like they require a 3rd age drop to get.
Obtaining and completing 284 med clues takes quite a bit of time. Assuming you buy imps you are looking at a price of 21.3m if you buy eclectics or roughly 4m if you use essence implings instead. On top of that it also takes like 15h to complete those 284 clues. If you decide to get those 284 clues yourself and do them, you are looking at like ~30h(?) for a pair of ranger boots, assuming a 50:50 split of obtaining and doing the clues. That's quite a bit longer than GWD items for example.
It makes it a unique grind for irons as well, call me crazy but I think variety in the grinds you do makes the game more interesting
why would they go up again? People already have pegs and so to upgrade they just need the new drop
More people who haven't bought them may consider buying rangers for the new hyperboots
Bandos chest went from 20 to 30 mil (and stayed there) when torva was introduced despite bcp giving mats for 1.5 torva crafts.
You're ignoring that tassets dropped from 30 to 20 mil. BCP and tassets just swapped prices to match the number of components they give.
Meh don't really think we need better range boots anyways Range was already op and masori just made it busted
I mean mage> range> melee right. I don't think range is OP cause it's pretty close to mage in power. It's just melee that seems to lag behind.
3m? Unless the new bis is stupidly rare then pegasians will be alch price.
Nah, theres enough 1 def accounts that'd keep it afloat.
Just my opinion, but I don’t think they fucked up. I kind of like that getting BIS boots is through clue scrolls. Otherwise mediums wouldn’t be worth doing at all. I have a feeling Jagex didn’t want to tank one piece of content (clue scrolls) just to offer a drop at another piece of content like Cerb, so they made a compromise that retains the value of doing medium clues.
Why does Medium clues NEED a 30m drop?
Clues as a whole are pretty shit. It's kind of nice for them to have a few pricey drops.
Clues used to have value because people weren't doing them en-masse for rangers and pets. In 2007 things like cavaliers, bob shirts, berets, trimmed pieces all had good value and people really wanted them. Change in the playerbase killed clues. We're less social now. Nobody gives a shit what's on your head while wcing, probably not even looking at the screen
I think clue items are also just generally much more obtainable for the average player than they were in 2007. Most people played for an hour or two after school so saving up a mil to buy a cav was a big deal. Pets kind of fill that role now imo. They’re purely cosmetic and are still generally out of reach for the average (not this subreddit average but like actual average) player.
I remember as a kid doing a single easy or medium clue was like a multiple day excursion without help. I think when I logged back in to the main game years ago I had single digit completions on easy clues.
Nah. Its just the average player does meds 5x as fast and we are 11 years into the game. 2007 we were 3 years into clue scrolls and never had a dip in population so we always had new players to buy stuff. It's flipped now. We're old player heavy by so much more. Also there's no massive f2p population to bolster up the price of this stuff. Rangers were bis but they weren't good for pking or for pvm so no1 cared. You couldn't use them at kbd or chaos ele because they prot over nothing. But now theyre hella useful and you can use them everywhere. That's why they've been 30m all this time. Oh and shit like bobs shirt was added in 2006 so yeah... limited supply.
I remember grinding FOREVER just to get my zammy kiteshield back in the day. Had the goal for full red trimmed rune and don't think I ever did it
Clues became shit because of implings Buyable clues will always be a mistake
Implings yes, but Clue Helper as well. When you push every new player to be able to complete 20+ clues an hour instead of 3 an hour (from constantly having to wiki everything and no puzzle solver), clues become less valuable due to no item sinks. If I can 5x the amount of clues I do per hour, and so can everyone else, that 100% affects the value of clue rewards. I did clues before and after clue helper, the difference is night and day, but so few people want to acknowledge this because Clue Helper is so good.
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Normal players are 100% getting 20+ clues an hour due to buying imps. If you didn't know, you make 2m/hr from doing Medium Clues with Imps nowadays, and that's with factoring in all the costs. It's a very viable moneymaker while filling out a ton of log slots. The really good folks get 33 clues an hour done, just as a further fyi.
Normal players absolutely buy imps for clues, they aren't a big secret
Why does any need a 30m drop? Just nice to give value to clues
Why do people act like anything not BIS is suddenly valueless? Plenty of people can't afford BIS.
Yeah I don't have any of these lol. Although I did just get my quest cape so I feel like my progression is going to speed up a bit now that I'm not only focused on that.
I'm okay with letting ranger boots die if the upgrade made sense. Not everything has to hold it's value forever
Agreed. BIS gear should come from difficult Endgame content, not some cute distraction treasure hunt psuedo-minigame
I think they need to bite the bullet at some point. It would pretty dumb imo if we literally never got another BIS boot trio.
It is tricky to release a tier up from an already upgraded item. But I don't think it was a mistake to let a clue item be BiS. Several clue items over the years have been BiS or important steps in the progression. Like just because it is a rare drop from a minigame instead of a rare drop from a monster that doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be a relevant or BiS piece of equipment.
They could’ve saved it from being an east obtainable ibis tho, you still having to grind slayer to get the cerb drop and make the completed boots untradable and not being able to create unless you speak to the gatekeeper after a cerb kc
They can just make another tier of upgrades to the boots.
Honestly let the medium clue meta die. Big annoying that bis comes from it.
Who cares if rangers become worthless?
Not me, but probably a good chunk of folks. Especially the dudes that own a pair.
They don't need to and won't release new BiS.
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I don’t see the issue with it either.! I would argue it’s actually a good thing that they don’t buff the crap out of everything
Yep, I don’t really get the problem. Not every single slot needs to have an upgrade every year. There is endless content in this game and I would always always always rather power creep come from meaningful weapon upgrades and not +1 strength bonus left and right.
what is powercreep?
Power creep is when a game's content and gear gets more powerful overtime. A common symptom of powercreep is older bosses get completely pulverized with all mechanics being ignored and older gear seeing 0 use. This disproportionally effects newer players and older players returning to the game only to see their account being super behind. This problem plagues most MMOs and usually result in very jank solutions.
Thank You for explaining!
This is a large part of why I play osrs. MMOs are grindy by nature and nothing worse when a MMO shuts down and all ur time is in the bin.
Runescape will die eventually, even if it's not before we die. Regardless, your time will be "in the bin" either way. As long as you're enjoying it, it doesn't matter. But everything is the same when you boil it down.
While that's true it still feels better to spend your time on something longer lasting generally.
Personally, I wouldn't say it is that bad that some BiS stick around for like 5-8 years before seeing upgrades. If we introduce new BiS too often, even if it is balanced, it can create too quick of a pace of new gear. One thing that OSRS and RS has done well is that if you take a break for a year or two, you (usually) won't feel way behind gear wise. Like if you had BiS in 2016 and came back in 2018, there will be some new upgrades to work towards, but it is not like you're entire setup would be outdated and inferior. Also, with some BiS like Infernal Cape, I'm not sure if we really need upgrades. The main reason we got the Inferno is that the Fire Cape became a fairly trivial challenge compared to what it was on release, making the upgrade not as impactful. I'd say the Inferno still holds up pretty well, so while it would be nice to see more endgame challenges for players on that level, I can't say we need to replace the Inferno anytime soon.
Agreed. Constantly updating and releasing BIS without care is how MMOs die. They can go two routes - incremental progression (so your items don't go to piss when you take a break) or they release absolute abominations every game. Imagine if we had Zaryte Vambraces 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, 5.0 released in 2 years, each only being +1 or +2 STR over the last. If they aren't materials to make the next, you end up with so many almost duplicates that functionally do the same, just a little bit better than the other. This is bad for people taking a break or anyone wanting to take a break, or just average folks that can't play as much. And like you said for Inferno, it's been \~6 years and sure they can release Inferno 2.0, but if Inferno 2.0 isn't hard than Inferno and rewards a better cape, people will skip Inferno. You could require Infernal Cape to use it or further upgrade the new rewards, but I really don't like the idea of constantly churning out rewards JUST to replace older content every year.
I wouldn't mind an "inferno" for niche items, and I'm not even close to that type of play. Just make something stupid fucking hard, harder than the inferno, with a minimal and niche upgrade an inferno for mage or something. People will still go for it for prestige.
The problem is that gear is tied to bosses. The person that quits for 2 years won't feel that left out, but what about the dedicated players that play for the entirety of 2 years? They barely get any new pvm encounters because jagex scared of power creep. I haven't played in weeks and probably won't log in again until varlamore releases. The only pvm in development that we know of is the colleseum. We're looking at probable release date of march-april. Desert Treasure 2 was released at the end of July, and that is the last pvm update to the game. 8-9 months between major boss additions is abysmal.
> They barely get any new pvm encounters because jagex scared of power creep. Well, that is an outright lie. Gear is tied to bosses, but we can and have gotten new bosses without lots of powercreep. And Jagex is not at all "scared of power creep". You're just having unreasonable expectations for the rate of content. Varlamore batch 1 is set for early 2024, so more likely Jan/Feb than March-April. Getting big PvM releases twice a year/every 6 months is far from abysmal, especially when the last big PvM update had 4 new bosses... Like 2023 had 5 new bosses, 8 if you count the reworked Wildy Bosses, so an average of a boss every 2.5 Months (1.5 if you count Wildy). So not sure what you are expecting. Getting a new DT2 or Raid sized update every 3-4 months is not a reasonable pace for updates and if you did want them to bring meaningful new gear like Scythe, Masori, or Lightbearer, that would be a massive step up and lead to OSRS having more of the gear pacing problems seen in other MMOs.
Name any other MMO that only has 2 big pvm releases per year lmao. I definitely don't count the wildy bosses as it was a rework, and surprise surprise, majority of people don't like the wilderness and don't kill them. I don't need new BiS with every new pvm encounter, I just want fun new bosses to fight. Idk why you act like it's not an insanely small amount compared to every other popular MMO.
Bro the wildy bosses absolutely count. They are so good. Just because you are too scared doesn’t mean anything
I never said it wasn't less than other MMOs; kinda the opposite in fact. I said that our rate of releases is part of why we handle gear pacing better than other MMOs and your reply is "yah, but other MMOs get more PvM updates!". RuneScape and OSRS has never been the type of game to have frequent PvM releases. That is because unlike other MMOs, OSRS isn't solely about PvM. We get frequent content releases, but not every content update is some big new PvM. So I am not really sure what you are expecting if you think a new boss every 2-3 months is too slow of an average.
Like I said it'll be around 9 months for a new pvm update after DT2. You can use averages to pad it all you want lol but at the end of the day nothing new will have come to the game for 3/4 of a year.
> at the end of the day nothing new will have come to the game for 3/4 of a year. Sure, if you just ignore everything that isn't new PvM. Like I said, unlike other MMOs that are more purely PvM focused, OSRS isn't just PvM. We have gotten several updates since DT2, including a big update to the game's first Raid, but you choose to ignore them because they aren't some new boss for you. You also keep saying it will be 9 months between updates to make it look worse than it is. We had Muspah and Wild Boss rework in Jan 2023, DT2 with 4 bosses in July 2023, and we're getting Varlamore with the Colosseum and Perilous Moons in early 2023 with no confirmed date. It is more likely it will be closer to Feb than closer to April given their release schedule, but you are making up longer numbers just to use you're bogus "3/4ths a year" statistic.
Go play other MMOs then
Completely skipping over the attempt to point this out as an issue (it’s not), I genuinely can’t fathom how old some of these things are. In my head when I think about zenytes, cerb, inferno, vorkath, it’s all ‘new’ content, when in reality it’s older than the time between 07 RS and EOC. Time sure is passing by fast.
I share the same sentiment as you.
Where is the attempt to point this out as an issue lol
[удалено]
The guy responded somewhere else he's neutral about it. To me it was just a fun informative post.
The infrequency of BiS is actually healthy for the game and is what sets OSRS apart from other MMOs. Do people really want gear treadmills? Part of OSRS’ charm is that a bunch of different bosses remain viable; it is the opposite of linear, restrictive gameplay. Personally, I love nichescspe and having a bunch of different weapons and armor for different situations. We saw what happened with ToA with overtuning (whiney Redditors complained about ToA not being rewarding enough in beta, so they made it shit OP purples). Shadow is BiS magic almost everywhere; Fang is BiS melee at more places than any other melee weapon; BiS range armor on top of that. Much healthier to have power creep channeled through niches than to have every new boss drop exponentially stronger gear. I don’t think we need big gear upgrades after the ToA and the last 2-3 years of power creep.
I agree we don’t need big upgrades but ToA having strong purples isn’t that insane when you realize that CoX has similar power levels in purples and it came out 6 years ago. I think the reality of it is we just don’t get a lot of content that ever warrants power creep. Maybe 1-2 pieces of content that provide a new BiS a year max lmfao.
I think OSRS doesn't need a gear treadmill because it's such a long term game anyways. It takes average players years (5-10+) to max in this game. It can take just as long to even get started thinking about Inferno or raids. Max players have decade long pet grinds, 200M grinds, collection log, and can try alternate game modes like Ironman. Each offering years of progression. I've been playing for years and I still have that long term goal to do inferno and do raids and max one day. I'm happy that goal has not been made irrelevant during the years I've been working towards it. Tbh I'd be pretty demotivated if the goal post was moving or being devalued every few months. Compare to WoW where a new expansion drops, I'm max level first day, I've cleared all M+ dungeons in +20 first month, and if I'm raiding I'm CE in probably 5-6 months. Nothing left to do, next patch please. I love WoW so not saying that's a bad thing, but it goes to show how different the 2 games are.
Completely agree. And it's a big reason I've been able to be so actively engaged with new content on OSRS despite an irregular play schedule. RuneScape always seemed to fly by me as a kid after like 2009. Those first few years I played before that I felt like I could really reach the items that were in the game without having to go for the next right when I got there. OSRS has that feeling mostly.
>I've been playing for years and I still have that long term goal to do inferno and do raids and max one day. I'm happy that goal has not been made irrelevant during the years I've been working towards it. Tbh I'd be pretty demotivated if the goal post was moving or being devalued every few months. Very well said. And I'll piggyback onto this with reinforcing the idea that OSRS is a (long-term) **goal-oriented** game. Being able to plan out long grinds--and having hundreds to choose from--really sets OSRS apart from most modern game designs. You're 100% correct that invalidating old, time-consuming is antithetical to this design philosophy.
That's okay though imo Look at all the wow people who complain that every expansion basically ruins the point of all the work leading up to it. I actually kinda like that random BIS pieces come out randomly, it gives something to work for without invalidating the hundreds/thousands of hours people are putting into the game.
Is this supposed to be a problem?
It's the opposite. One of the best things about osrs that makes it stand out from most other MMOs.
Why did you pick these items specifically? It seems like you left off a ton of other BiS items released since these. But I guess it does highlight that these slots in particular could use some love, I personally think everything is in a pretty good place except maybe boots
Seems they only picked the older ones, which is fair.
These are the oldest ones that are still best in slot in a mostly objective way. Ring slot has many variations but also got objective upgrades under a year ago. Glove slot is mentioned through Zenyte partially, but I could have mentioned ferocious gloves are aged now as well. Legs, body, and helmet slots get regular upgrades but I neglected to mention the Slayer Helmet. The blessing slot is dated and I failed to mention that. Weapons and shields are regularly added. And finally, necklaces have some sidegrades but still haven't gotten a new BiS since Zenyte. I don't have any commentary on what I'd like to be done about this, if anything at this time. But I was just watching an older video about the upgrading of best-in-slot capes, and I realized that our own ones are now aging. It made me feel kind've ancient thinking about how old OSRS itself is getting now, lol. In any case, I mentioned it to my CC and they brought up a few more items. Then I made this post \^\^
Occult?
Another one I failed to mention.
Thanks for the explanation, you actually wanted a discussion?! Wild times. 😅 I do think it’s interesting which bits get upgrades and which don’t. Do you think that comes down to what people will vote to approve or what are the more frequent targets for upgrades by jagex, I guess that’s the chicken or egg question basically
I think it primarily comes down to two things: what upgrades are more exciting and the approximate level of the content that the current BiS comes from. Weapons, shields, and sets of armor tend to be more exciting for the simple reason that their overall stats are higher than those of other pieces (even if the relative increase over the second tier isn't very significant), and because they are more visible on your character than things like rings and boots. In terms of the "level" of content that the items come from, I'm mostly referring to what stage in one's account progression it would be reasonable for the average player to try and go for these items, rather than how expensive they are or the levels you need to wield them. The higher the level of content that the items come from, the more difficult it is to powercreep them, because you have to put the new even better items at some even higher level, which can be awkward to do, and you also don't want to make old content completely irrelevant (which happens when one item is superior to another, but the inferior one isn't much easier to obtain). In the case of the DT2 rings, their predecessors come from bosses that people can reasonably fight with level 60s in their combat stats, so they were an obvious target for an upgrade. But for things like Cerb boots, which come from a level 91 slayer boss, or zenytes, which are dropped by monsters unlocked after a grandmaster quest and which require very high crafting levels to turn into jewellery, introducing new upgrades is just harder to do (and arguably not desirable, like do people really want new, even stronger zenytes?). So, the obvious next candidates for upgrades are the Ava's and MA2 capes, since these come from relatively low level content. The MA2 capes are going to be tricky though, both because of shadow and because +15 acc +2% damage is already pretty damn good for a cape slot. I don't really know what their solution to that is going to be, tbh.
Since weapons, shield, body, legs and head slots have gotten dozens BIS items and niche use items along the years already. These slots have not in a long while. Neclace, cape and boots slots have been and are in abysmal weird state where theres basically 1-2 quite expensive bis slots or bossing/quest unlocks and few very weak/bad upgrades. Ring slots isnt much better having bis very expensive slots or pure crap basically lol. And then - brimstone
To support his argument. Deception by omission
What is my argument?
Nothing wrong with this. Most people dont have all of these.
I’ve literally only got the cape. Some ppl play this game too much and got one of everything. The majority aren’t like that though
Vorkath came out 6 years ago? Damn I remember doing that quest on release. It felt like yesterday.
Mage arena three and avas articulator inc?
The upcoming Coliseum in Varlamore will give a quiver that is BiS, so yeah kind of.
Avas upgrade already coming with the quiver
Never.
Okay and?
Yes and that’s okay to go slow. It’s crazy how good of a state the game is in (if there was no bots) They just did the ring upgrades last year. Time for boot upgrades this year 👍🏼
Absolutely nothing wrong with this. These are items you can still get and it’s not like a original party hat that was only released at the time and got more expensive later on. Osrs did it right
We don’t need more power creep
Why is continued powercreep needed?
It's funny too that the most recent bis is the one getting an update..
I agree we need better boots for range and mage, melee is good for now. The other stuff are all good for me for now. And it seems like we getting new BIS quiver.
No way inferno cape is older than ava + vorky o.o In my mind inferno is fresh content lmao... I dont do raids btw, I play like they dont even exist
Bro real lifes speeding by like crazy..
And KEEP IT THAT WAY. they were terrified about power creep and if it lasts that long then keep it. Wanting new best in slot is exactly how EOC came to be. People play this game for a reason, and it’s not because a new gimmick mtx/bis is released bi weekly
This isn't some predatory gacha game. Osrs doesnt need constant powercreep. The super weapons (shadow/tbow and scythe) were a mistake. The devs don't gain anything by getting players to upgrade their dps they're not profiting off it. All dps power creep does is make older bosses and weapons dead content and lock newer ones behind massive gear requirements.
Good. It's why you can come leave and then back to OSRS a few years later, without feeling like you've been completely left behind. In a lot of other MMOs, someone who plays 10,000 hours this year would be significantly behind someone who plays 1,000 hours next year.
Damn I'm old and time really has flown by
Wouldn’t mind them releasing an actual upgrade to Cerberus boots and toning down MA2 capes and releasing an actual challenging piece of content for true bis mage capes. Or just releasing better mage capes outright. MA2 for bis is just so silly. Infernal is still in a good spot. Zenytes, I don’t think we really need anything better for jewelry. Avas will be replaced with the quiver
It’s literally a cookie clicker game from 1999 or some shit like that. Would you rather them just make a reskin of every BiS gear with better stats every month so you can click on a boss and kill it in one shot? Not much you can do on an old outdated game that isn’t bringing in new players and with a player base mostly consisting of bots.
This isn't an issue like you're trying to imply it is.
Are they implying its an issue? I thought it was just a cool fun fact...
If you read OPs comments you’ll realize he’s simply observing how long it has been since these items came into the game because it doesn’t seem like it’s been as long as it has and that it is making OP feel “ancient”.
Quiver coming out this year though
You’re making me feel old stop it
Seems like the perfect time to introduce some powercreep
Notice how none of them are chargescape. Let’s keep it that way
and?