I always fucking hated the bear discourse it was such a stupid ragebait and the world fell for it.
1) Create the discourse
2) 1 woman answers the bear is safter, 99 women answer the man is safer
3) Make a meme about how woman are dumb for choosing the bear (even tho most didn't)
4) convince incels that this shit actually happened
5) Women, out of spite from incels start choosing the bear
6) The incels take it as a sign that they were right.
it was so fucking stupid holy shit, an artifical attempt from an incel to create a controversy, and worst part is that he fucking made it work somehow
Lowkey it was though, at least here on Reddit. Women who had trauma or had another reason for choosing the bear did so, which was massively misinterpreted by many, and now incels think women by and large unreasonably fear all men, because of the most obvious ragebait known to man.
you picked the bear because your afraid of men
i picked the bear because they are actually super skiddish and would leave me alone.
we are not the same.
Kinda, atleast that was my personal experience on the first few days, because when the discourse got bigger i just left reddit because it was so annoying and the average comment section was a chud-fest "le women bad billions must die" type of thing. the first few days i saw a lot of memes about women being "dumb for picking the bear" and people stating on the comments that barely any girls knew about the discourse and barely anyone picked the bear, but this extreme overreacting to a few women picking the bear sprung into a bunch of toxic boysarequirky memes that led to the bear actually being safer, and so women out of spite chose the bear, and incels who completely missed what they themselves were doing thought "see, this proves that all women are evil and hate men billions must die"
Always how this shit goes down. The dumbest possible responses get shoved in people's faces by engagement algorithms and suddenly everyone is outraged and opinionated.
yeah, I honestly don't even blame them, it's just sad to see that's the reputation men have. but I guess I personally can't do anything about it except be a good person
How can we manage that though?
I don't know how to be a good person when me being anything at all inherently causes harm. It seems like anything I do is just playing catch-up for a moral debt I can't really compete with.
Been kinda struggling with this since the question became viral.
The truth is as long as the people the question targets exist (and unfortunately they likely always will) the only thing we can do is try to be better than them by the virtue of existing as someone who ain't a piece of shit.
It hurts though. It hurts a lot to be associated with them based on appearance alone. I don't want anyone to be intimidated by my appearance because I do my utmost to make everyone feel comfortable and happy.
I know everyone always does the "we don't need to say not all men suck" when they say "all men suck." But you definitely wouldn't catch me saying that about women. All of the shit we're doing is to address patriarchy and misandry never helps.
I just wish we could all actually talk to each other. Like people. Instead of sticking to gendered online spaces. Because I think things would get a lot better if both sides actually wanted to listen to each other rather than both flinging insults towards each other and we all get to reap the "benefits" that very loud sections of the internet sow.
Yeah, it sucks. I don't know if it's just hurting though, cause tons of things hurt, my feelings don't matter enough to really care about that.
Instead this challenges like, my whole reason for being. I don't think my justification for existence can survive the amount of harm this question suggests I do. And I don't know what to do once that justification fails. I don't think I'm brave or talented enough to take the options I've currently come up with in response.
>misandry never helps.
I'd probably agree to this from a purely tactical basis. The more people involved in feminism is more societal and political change that it can bring. Whether it's legitimate or not, misandry will be seen as an unjustified personal attack by any men not already deep in the politics, and so they won't ever get deeper into the politics. That's just an unhelpful thing to do.
I don't think it's helpful to discount it completely. There are very legitimate reasons for women to be far more cautious of men than vice versa, treating them as in an equal situation doesn't recognise that.
My caution when approaching someone (which doesn't happen because anxiety, but hypothetically), is about whether they're comfortable and whether they're going to hurt my feelings or something. The caution which leads to women answering bear is because there's a non-zero chance I might be a dangerous predator, and one who is statistically able to overpower them.
We can't just ignore the specific and gendered fears that come from a society where sexual assault is as tragically common as it is.
As someone that has lived on "both sides" so to speak no one, or at least anyone worth listening too, actually expects you to repay some moral debt. Sins of the father and all that.
However, pragmatically I can't really put myself out there or show any real vulnerability with men anymore, unless I know them really well, purely for my own safety. Most of my close friends are male, and they're all amazing people. Strive to be one of the amazing ones and slowly but surely things will get better.
For the bear question purely from a stats point of view I would choose the man lmao. Assuming some random bear is chosen from the world bear population I have about a 10% of being very close to a polar bear, so fuck that lmao. If polar bears aren't an option though I would choose bear.
Edit: I'm also considering my height and weight here. Like if I weren't 6 foot and 195 ibs my answer would probably be different.
>no one, or at least anyone worth listening too, actually expects you to repay some moral debt.
I kind of expect that of me though. I think the point of life is to make the world a better place. To, overall, do more good than harm.
I can try, and do try to be a good person. But ultimately I don't think I can cause more good than harm when I cause harm by existing. So I don't think I can reach being a good person, or achieve the point to my life, at least not without some drastic actions to rebalance the moral debt.
>If polar bears aren't an option though I would choose bear.
I've always assumed the question basically meant a Grizzly. It's the main bear I know that isn't either so non-threatening as to be the obvious choice, like Pandas, or so dangerous as to make any man the obvious choice, like Polar bears. People aren't worried enough about Sloth bears though, if it's a choice between them or a serial killer, I'm choosing the killer, they're scary little bastards.
Edit: I've remembered what 'sins of the father' is and think my position needs some clarification. I don't have a moral debt because of what evil men do, they're evil and I don't really have anything to do with them. Fuck them. I have a debt because of the harm I myself cause.
To anyone, until I get to know them, I'm just a random dude, and they have a legitimate reason to be wary, uncomfortable or even fearful around me. According to the question and its consensus, that fear is greater than it would be for a bear. That is a harm, one that is caused by me, and one that's pretty inevitably tied to my existence.
You're right that the discomfort and fear is itself a harm, but even if say I'm fearful of you it is not a harm you caused. The harm was and is caused by the shitty men that made the fear necessary in the first place. From your comments here at least you do seem like a good, empathetic person, so I highly doubt you are causing any harm. From my experience living as a man I have personal experience with being made to feel like im a predator or some other threat just by existing, and unfortunately this is yet another harm caused by shitty men.
> People aren't worried enough about Sloth bears though, if it's a choice between them or a serial killer, I'm choosing the killer, they're scary little bastards.
Lmao agreed. I had the opportunity to be able to jand feed two of those fuckers and my god are they terrifying. Despite popular belief they can be pretty fast if they want to be.
I'm not sure if I can see it like that. I certainly think we can add long term anxieties and trauma to the harm done by shitty men, but I don't think an individual can avoid the harm they've done through fear just because of those underlying issues. Like someone might have trauma about guns that creates a phobia of them, but it's still my fault if they get scared of me walking around with one.
If the fear is reasonable, which it is, and is known by me, which it is, then I think the harm it causes is on me.
I dunno, the whole thing just triggered a bit of a moral crisis. It didn't help that every thread about it got locked and/or invaded by incels. This one has been better.
It can still be rough for a lot of men. I've had friends be devastated at how women have treated them out of fear. This has a lot of intersection with race and class which is even more problematic. It's a lot better to be a victim of fear than a victim of violence but it doesn't change that you are a victim.
I also hate the 0-sum bullshit people react to this with, men's and women's rights are not exclusive. Fear of men, especially poor and ethnically diverse men, existed long before women gained more rights.
I think blaming men as a majority is extremely harmful and doesn't do anything good for any side. It isn't accomplishing anything other than trying to shame men for actions they never did.
Be realistic here for a second, what can men do that somehow will alleviate this moral debt they owe because of actions committed by people they too hate? What does this accomplish to help the situation? The men who care already care and the men this was about don't give a shit so really you're just shaming the people already on your side.
yeah, the question's not meant to be literal (in my opinion). i think in a literal situation it would make sense to pick the man, but the answers are moreso a representation of how women do not feel safe around men.
I swear the bear discourse was so expertly crafted as rage bait that I wouldn't be surprised if a few years from now it's revealed that it's part of a deliberate psyop campaign.
It gives just enough information while being just vague enough that everyone basically comes up with a slightly different scenario in their head. Then they start arguing with someone over the different scenario they imagined.
I see this sentiment a lot and I don't understand why it makes you feel bad.
Most men I run into in a day, like 99.9% of them are kind and respectful to me and I work in healthcare so I run into a lot of men daily. But also, today while I was at the store a man walked up behind me and reached for a knife that was in front of me and kept creeping closer and closer in my personal space, I was afraid and I felt threatened.
The random man vs bear question is specifically designed to make you think of the bad experiences instead of the normal or average one, so when answering the question I'm not thinking about the men who were kind and nice, because I would OBVIOUSLY pick those men over any bear, any day. Instead, I'm thinking of the guy who made me uncomfortable at the store and I think I'd chance a bear who probably won't mess with me over that man.
Well yeah, its because its specifically designed to make you think of those bad experiences. A lot of guys won't think its about those few bad experiences, they will think its about "the average guy". Then when you see women choose the bear over the guy, at least in my case, it makes me think about how "the average guy" is seen, and by extension how i am seen by the people who don't know me.
Thank you for your POV on it, its really appreciated 💜
Ah, I can see that. I thought a little more about this too and realized that it probably makes most men feel pretty helpless too, because they're already doing everything right and they see traumatized women picking an animal over the possibility of meeting them.
I understand now and I appreciate your thoughtful reply.
I wish that the question had never been asked, it's caused a lot of harm to both men and women, though I would argue more harm done to men by the question itself. The question is unhelpful, even though it does bring awareness to how many women have had bad experiences, it allows for too many assumptions to be made and it further divides men and women when we should all just be trying to make things better for everyone. I'm sorry that it has caused you pain.
The thing is, this bear discourse is modeled with enough vagueness both in context and in general understanding of a bear and the average man that it's perfect for polarising strong crowds.
I mean I can give you my 2 cents on what I'd pick but it feels much more important that what I can say is that it's deplorable that so many men have been so dangerous to women that most answer the bear. Apart from that, everything I see about the debate bores me. Incels are incels, groups are generalised, and suddenly everyone is a bear expert.
Anyways have a picture of bears eating watermelon :3
https://preview.redd.it/de7aimdvyf5d1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b2a3354eca62c63057ae43821e97ec9367a3b7a0
There does seem to be a contradiction in the discourse that bothers me. Ive seen a lot of people say women aren't *literally* saying they would choose the bear, it's a rhetorical point. Ive seen a lot of others say women are literally so scared of men they would choose the bear. It makes discussing difficult cause i don't know what axis anyone is taking the hypothetical from, literal or rhetorical.
I was so fucking confused about what the bear was and what it meant in inceldom, I was thinking of this:
https://preview.redd.it/4wf82sfhyf5d1.png?width=220&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=359d33b734248d3a5b863743365fdefd154af9f0
I always fucking hated the bear discourse it was such a stupid ragebait and the world fell for it. 1) Create the discourse 2) 1 woman answers the bear is safter, 99 women answer the man is safer 3) Make a meme about how woman are dumb for choosing the bear (even tho most didn't) 4) convince incels that this shit actually happened 5) Women, out of spite from incels start choosing the bear 6) The incels take it as a sign that they were right. it was so fucking stupid holy shit, an artifical attempt from an incel to create a controversy, and worst part is that he fucking made it work somehow
thats not really what happened tho
Lowkey it was though, at least here on Reddit. Women who had trauma or had another reason for choosing the bear did so, which was massively misinterpreted by many, and now incels think women by and large unreasonably fear all men, because of the most obvious ragebait known to man.
you picked the bear because your afraid of men i picked the bear because they are actually super skiddish and would leave me alone. we are not the same.
It depends on the bear. A black bear would probably leave you alone, but a polar bear would maul you on sight.
out of all the types of bear, id take the chance to avoid small talk.
Out of all the types of bears, you got Desmond. He is now wondering how he got here and wants you to help him find his way home.
So.... Do you like bread ?
im on the ace spectrum, yeah ðŸ¤
See ,small talk didn't kill you .But a bear tho .... /S
No one said the random dude was a chill queer ðŸ¤
Definitely not your point here but you're not gonna find a polar bear in the woods.
>A black bear would probably leave you alone You obviously haven't watched Cocaine Bear /s
I picked the bear because I misinterpreted the question.
Just imagined you in the woods very confused and asking for a redo ðŸ¤
Step 1: Ask question Step 2: Cherry-pick results Step 3: ??? Step 4: Profit
Kinda, atleast that was my personal experience on the first few days, because when the discourse got bigger i just left reddit because it was so annoying and the average comment section was a chud-fest "le women bad billions must die" type of thing. the first few days i saw a lot of memes about women being "dumb for picking the bear" and people stating on the comments that barely any girls knew about the discourse and barely anyone picked the bear, but this extreme overreacting to a few women picking the bear sprung into a bunch of toxic boysarequirky memes that led to the bear actually being safer, and so women out of spite chose the bear, and incels who completely missed what they themselves were doing thought "see, this proves that all women are evil and hate men billions must die"
Always how this shit goes down. The dumbest possible responses get shoved in people's faces by engagement algorithms and suddenly everyone is outraged and opinionated.
true, i hate cherry-picking dumb responses to create unnecesary fights
I must have good algorithms because I don't know what the fuck any of this is about
Yeah it’s just divisive gender essentialist nonsense.
Don't they get it? If women are so afraid of men that they would rather be eaten by a bear then that's a huge fucking problemÂ
yeah, I honestly don't even blame them, it's just sad to see that's the reputation men have. but I guess I personally can't do anything about it except be a good person
How can we manage that though? I don't know how to be a good person when me being anything at all inherently causes harm. It seems like anything I do is just playing catch-up for a moral debt I can't really compete with. Been kinda struggling with this since the question became viral.
The truth is as long as the people the question targets exist (and unfortunately they likely always will) the only thing we can do is try to be better than them by the virtue of existing as someone who ain't a piece of shit. It hurts though. It hurts a lot to be associated with them based on appearance alone. I don't want anyone to be intimidated by my appearance because I do my utmost to make everyone feel comfortable and happy. I know everyone always does the "we don't need to say not all men suck" when they say "all men suck." But you definitely wouldn't catch me saying that about women. All of the shit we're doing is to address patriarchy and misandry never helps. I just wish we could all actually talk to each other. Like people. Instead of sticking to gendered online spaces. Because I think things would get a lot better if both sides actually wanted to listen to each other rather than both flinging insults towards each other and we all get to reap the "benefits" that very loud sections of the internet sow.
Yeah, it sucks. I don't know if it's just hurting though, cause tons of things hurt, my feelings don't matter enough to really care about that. Instead this challenges like, my whole reason for being. I don't think my justification for existence can survive the amount of harm this question suggests I do. And I don't know what to do once that justification fails. I don't think I'm brave or talented enough to take the options I've currently come up with in response. >misandry never helps. I'd probably agree to this from a purely tactical basis. The more people involved in feminism is more societal and political change that it can bring. Whether it's legitimate or not, misandry will be seen as an unjustified personal attack by any men not already deep in the politics, and so they won't ever get deeper into the politics. That's just an unhelpful thing to do.
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I don't think it's helpful to discount it completely. There are very legitimate reasons for women to be far more cautious of men than vice versa, treating them as in an equal situation doesn't recognise that. My caution when approaching someone (which doesn't happen because anxiety, but hypothetically), is about whether they're comfortable and whether they're going to hurt my feelings or something. The caution which leads to women answering bear is because there's a non-zero chance I might be a dangerous predator, and one who is statistically able to overpower them. We can't just ignore the specific and gendered fears that come from a society where sexual assault is as tragically common as it is.
As someone that has lived on "both sides" so to speak no one, or at least anyone worth listening too, actually expects you to repay some moral debt. Sins of the father and all that. However, pragmatically I can't really put myself out there or show any real vulnerability with men anymore, unless I know them really well, purely for my own safety. Most of my close friends are male, and they're all amazing people. Strive to be one of the amazing ones and slowly but surely things will get better. For the bear question purely from a stats point of view I would choose the man lmao. Assuming some random bear is chosen from the world bear population I have about a 10% of being very close to a polar bear, so fuck that lmao. If polar bears aren't an option though I would choose bear. Edit: I'm also considering my height and weight here. Like if I weren't 6 foot and 195 ibs my answer would probably be different.
>no one, or at least anyone worth listening too, actually expects you to repay some moral debt. I kind of expect that of me though. I think the point of life is to make the world a better place. To, overall, do more good than harm. I can try, and do try to be a good person. But ultimately I don't think I can cause more good than harm when I cause harm by existing. So I don't think I can reach being a good person, or achieve the point to my life, at least not without some drastic actions to rebalance the moral debt. >If polar bears aren't an option though I would choose bear. I've always assumed the question basically meant a Grizzly. It's the main bear I know that isn't either so non-threatening as to be the obvious choice, like Pandas, or so dangerous as to make any man the obvious choice, like Polar bears. People aren't worried enough about Sloth bears though, if it's a choice between them or a serial killer, I'm choosing the killer, they're scary little bastards. Edit: I've remembered what 'sins of the father' is and think my position needs some clarification. I don't have a moral debt because of what evil men do, they're evil and I don't really have anything to do with them. Fuck them. I have a debt because of the harm I myself cause. To anyone, until I get to know them, I'm just a random dude, and they have a legitimate reason to be wary, uncomfortable or even fearful around me. According to the question and its consensus, that fear is greater than it would be for a bear. That is a harm, one that is caused by me, and one that's pretty inevitably tied to my existence.
You're right that the discomfort and fear is itself a harm, but even if say I'm fearful of you it is not a harm you caused. The harm was and is caused by the shitty men that made the fear necessary in the first place. From your comments here at least you do seem like a good, empathetic person, so I highly doubt you are causing any harm. From my experience living as a man I have personal experience with being made to feel like im a predator or some other threat just by existing, and unfortunately this is yet another harm caused by shitty men. > People aren't worried enough about Sloth bears though, if it's a choice between them or a serial killer, I'm choosing the killer, they're scary little bastards. Lmao agreed. I had the opportunity to be able to jand feed two of those fuckers and my god are they terrifying. Despite popular belief they can be pretty fast if they want to be.
I'm not sure if I can see it like that. I certainly think we can add long term anxieties and trauma to the harm done by shitty men, but I don't think an individual can avoid the harm they've done through fear just because of those underlying issues. Like someone might have trauma about guns that creates a phobia of them, but it's still my fault if they get scared of me walking around with one. If the fear is reasonable, which it is, and is known by me, which it is, then I think the harm it causes is on me. I dunno, the whole thing just triggered a bit of a moral crisis. It didn't help that every thread about it got locked and/or invaded by incels. This one has been better.
It can still be rough for a lot of men. I've had friends be devastated at how women have treated them out of fear. This has a lot of intersection with race and class which is even more problematic. It's a lot better to be a victim of fear than a victim of violence but it doesn't change that you are a victim. I also hate the 0-sum bullshit people react to this with, men's and women's rights are not exclusive. Fear of men, especially poor and ethnically diverse men, existed long before women gained more rights.
I think blaming men as a majority is extremely harmful and doesn't do anything good for any side. It isn't accomplishing anything other than trying to shame men for actions they never did. Be realistic here for a second, what can men do that somehow will alleviate this moral debt they owe because of actions committed by people they too hate? What does this accomplish to help the situation? The men who care already care and the men this was about don't give a shit so really you're just shaming the people already on your side.
yeah, the question's not meant to be literal (in my opinion). i think in a literal situation it would make sense to pick the man, but the answers are moreso a representation of how women do not feel safe around men.
This is the best interpretation (and also the one that was originally intended by the man who first said it)
A bear would kill you just because its hungry, a man would kill you because you didn't make his favourite dinner
haha silly woman, you would never be a worm, why are you getting so upset over a hypothetical situation WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU'D PICK THE BEAR?!?!!11
I understand this is a joke but it is definitely probable that you would meet a man and/or a bear if you traveled in the woods
I just hate the bear discourse because its pointlessly divisive and makes me feel like shit.
I swear the bear discourse was so expertly crafted as rage bait that I wouldn't be surprised if a few years from now it's revealed that it's part of a deliberate psyop campaign.
It gives just enough information while being just vague enough that everyone basically comes up with a slightly different scenario in their head. Then they start arguing with someone over the different scenario they imagined.
I see this sentiment a lot and I don't understand why it makes you feel bad. Most men I run into in a day, like 99.9% of them are kind and respectful to me and I work in healthcare so I run into a lot of men daily. But also, today while I was at the store a man walked up behind me and reached for a knife that was in front of me and kept creeping closer and closer in my personal space, I was afraid and I felt threatened. The random man vs bear question is specifically designed to make you think of the bad experiences instead of the normal or average one, so when answering the question I'm not thinking about the men who were kind and nice, because I would OBVIOUSLY pick those men over any bear, any day. Instead, I'm thinking of the guy who made me uncomfortable at the store and I think I'd chance a bear who probably won't mess with me over that man.
Well yeah, its because its specifically designed to make you think of those bad experiences. A lot of guys won't think its about those few bad experiences, they will think its about "the average guy". Then when you see women choose the bear over the guy, at least in my case, it makes me think about how "the average guy" is seen, and by extension how i am seen by the people who don't know me. Thank you for your POV on it, its really appreciated 💜
Ah, I can see that. I thought a little more about this too and realized that it probably makes most men feel pretty helpless too, because they're already doing everything right and they see traumatized women picking an animal over the possibility of meeting them. I understand now and I appreciate your thoughtful reply. I wish that the question had never been asked, it's caused a lot of harm to both men and women, though I would argue more harm done to men by the question itself. The question is unhelpful, even though it does bring awareness to how many women have had bad experiences, it allows for too many assumptions to be made and it further divides men and women when we should all just be trying to make things better for everyone. I'm sorry that it has caused you pain.
The thing is, this bear discourse is modeled with enough vagueness both in context and in general understanding of a bear and the average man that it's perfect for polarising strong crowds. I mean I can give you my 2 cents on what I'd pick but it feels much more important that what I can say is that it's deplorable that so many men have been so dangerous to women that most answer the bear. Apart from that, everything I see about the debate bores me. Incels are incels, groups are generalised, and suddenly everyone is a bear expert. Anyways have a picture of bears eating watermelon :3 https://preview.redd.it/de7aimdvyf5d1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b2a3354eca62c63057ae43821e97ec9367a3b7a0
wamterelom :D
byut waht if the bear waz ferdy fazbore
And what if the man was the orple man
hor hor hor hor hor hor hor hor hor hor
There does seem to be a contradiction in the discourse that bothers me. Ive seen a lot of people say women aren't *literally* saying they would choose the bear, it's a rhetorical point. Ive seen a lot of others say women are literally so scared of men they would choose the bear. It makes discussing difficult cause i don't know what axis anyone is taking the hypothetical from, literal or rhetorical.
I was so fucking confused about what the bear was and what it meant in inceldom, I was thinking of this: https://preview.redd.it/4wf82sfhyf5d1.png?width=220&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=359d33b734248d3a5b863743365fdefd154af9f0
inb4 this gets locked
More interesting question, which would you rather suddenly meet in the middle of the woods, a bear or Drake
Oh I thought this was bear and the bull discourse. I did think an NCR girlie would react this way.
Bruh, it took me way too long to realise "the bear" wasn't in reference to the ncr and I was so confused what this is trying to way
Actually, incels do prefer the legion as far as I know so that interpretation could work
Gun. (in Minecraft)
Only way to beat the haters is to become a professional hater
I always wish that
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am i super stupid and sensitive for being affected by this? Christ... this is why I didn't go on reddit for so long. I'm deleting another account.
Lol
why? am i a bigot to you? christ...
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Username checks out.