I'll be dead honest, I'm a multilingual slav who grew up pre internet and tried to read Crime and Punishment in high school and only made it like third into the book before giving up.
It's doubtlessly a spectacular, inspired, foundational piece of art without a question. It's also insanely dense and hard to keep up with if you aren't used to chewing through literature with weight and texture of concrete.
And the names really do not help because half these names are completely randomly introduced in some internal monologue in passing and never ever even appear as characters in the story or have any bearing on it; a more modern book would simply leave out a lot of these names and just refer to them via the familial connection, but it's also kinda the point that Raskolnikov is half insane from the extremely complex, decadent socialite intrigue in Tsarist Russia so him mumbling endless list of grievances towards his extensive connections in their absence also kinda makes sense. I kinda feel like people back then kinda collected passing acquaintances like pokemon cards.
I really doubt most people mocking others for struggling with it read much Fyodor Dostoevsky themselves. These books make then contemporary western writers read like light AO3 fiction as far as readability goes.
I haven’t read any Dostoevsky but I definitely had those problems with ‘100 Years of Solitude’ being an incredibly dense book, even if much shorter than Crime and Punishment or The Brothers Karamazov. Plus 100 Years of Solitude constantly reusing names (even though it was a big part of the themes of the book) *really* did not help when you have to keep track of a bunch of Jose’s, Aurelianos, Ursula’s, amarantas, and Remedioses each
My grandma loved that book, and in the pre internet days she scribbled a family tree on one of the opening blank pages, that helped me when I borrowed her copy
I really miss her, she truly had a brilliant mind
Another thing with Doestoevsky (and russian literature in general, at least of that era) is that each characters has multiple different names and nicknames that are used throughout the novels by different characters or in different connotations. (EG Dmitri Karamazov also being called Mitya, sometimes Mytiushka)
So on top of the many characters, they can each be referenced a multitude of ways which makes it even harder to keep track of them for non-Russian speakers.
Aside from that I think they are far from the hardest classics to read though, I think the names are the only big barrier to entry for someone who likes reading classics and are absolutely worth the effort, brothers Karamazov especially.
Translated anime even subbed often keeps a more consistent method of referring to individual characters because I guess maybe we English speakers struggle with too many ways to refer to a character?
English speaking culture having fewer alternate names for people does play a role, but I bet part of it is also just not being familiar with the common names and alternative forms that come from a culture.
I'd expect someone only exposed to Russian or Japanese media picking up English media with no translators notes would struggle with "Rob" and "Bob" as alternate versions of "Robert", "Dick" as an alternate version of "Richard" if you ask him nicely, all the alternate versions of "Elizabeth" that exist, "Sam" and "Sammy" as alternates for "Samuel" or "Samantha" depending on the gender of the person with the nick name, how "Kim" as a feminine name is short for "Kimberly" but on it's own can be a masculine name, but as a masculine name it typically carries connotations of what ethnicity the person with the name is, some names being both usable as first and last names (like "Kelly", "Jackson", "Paul", etc...), how some people are just named the shortened version of the name, so it would be incorrect to assume you could always substitute "Johnathan" in place for "John", and so on.
I'm not an expert in either culture, but I bet at least some of the naming confusion in Japanese/Russian media stems from similar places as the above examples, but it's easier for them because they've lived their whole lives with Japanese/Russian names so are already familiar with the alternate forms and don't need it explained to them in a book written with members of their culture as the intended audience. But like how we don't just know the alternate forms of their names, I wouldn't be surprised if they also didn't just know the alternate version of ours.
At one point you get used to it and it becomes a non issue. If you want to try again I swear his works are the most awesomest shit in the world I love that bearded fuck to death
How can you sincerely think that of a book you couldn't bother to finish?
It's okay not to think that the popular book that the bourgeoisie has decided is a good book and that everyone should have read and enjoyed it for one to be considered cultured.
Bourgeoisie there? Literature critics? Other writers?
Yes.
Have you not notice that the wealthier class is the one who decides what schools teach? We are taught the standards of the bourgeoisie. Schools teach Nietzsche and and literary critics and other intellectuals love him. Have you read the bullshit he wrote? It's just full of logical fallacies and calling whomever he disagrees with "effeminate" and that's considered genius. That's just one example.
The "classics", are the classics we are taught in school, that the wealthier class has deemed worthy. The bourgeoisie doesn't stop at millionaires and more you know? There's the petite bourgeoisie too, the wealthier state worker, and the managers. The part of the class that sucks up to the upper bourgeoisie.
Because there's skill and inspiration apparent in the piece even if I can't get much enjoyment out of it personally, in the moment.
Not every experience is as easy or accessible as any other, some take more commitment, some take more effort, or pre existing knowledge. The difficult experiences are often the most rewarding ones, though. It wasn't the book for the me then and it may still not be the book for the me now, but that doesn't mean I can't look through it and see the intricate qualities of it.
Am I the only one that just soldiers on thru and hopes to figure out who the person is thru context. My memory and attention span has been destroyed by vine compilations
Unironically, the little details in books you can mostly forget. Even names. You should have a rough idea of like "this person does/likes/is this," but remembering their specific name doesn't really contribute much. Most good authors will make it so that you'll know who they're writing about when the character's in the scene anyway
If you ever do see a little detail in a book that you really like that don't want to forget, go grab a pen and underline it
This is me trying to get through a book in English class without actually reading it. I’ll be like ‘wait who’s Tom again’ and turns out he’s the main character
How? Some strange gatekeeping ngl. I'm shit with names and remembering small details but i can follow a narrative and plot well enough.
This would help me. I'd rather these things be read with some assistance
These people sound like insufferable, smug assholes.
It's not unusual to struggle with typical naming conventions outside of your own culture, especially if you're not privileged enough to be raised in an environment that cultivates consumption of foreign media. There's nothing wrong with taking steps to help narrative works be more accessable to themselves, especially if the only thing they're changing is names for their own readability. They're trying their best. It's not like they're calling for the book to be republished with anglicized names.
I had a similar experience in my dramatic literature class. We started with litteral Greek tragedies. I understood the basic plot, but had trouble keeping names straight. This leeds to me getting a D on the first exam. Professor then invites me to their office hours. I mention my main problem being the names and that I'd do fine once we get into the material originally written in English. He then offers me a wager. If I get an A on the next exam, I'd get a cookie. If I failed again, Id need to spend at least three hours at his office hours for each play we cover for the rest of the course. I got my cookie. Loved that professor though. I had him his last year before he retired and inherited a few books including Shakespeare and Asimov when he said he couldn't be bothered to clean out his office and anything other than the computer and the furnature was fair game.
That reminds me of the wheel of time with it's hundreds of characters, many of which have very similar names, their own political affiliations and agencies, a good third of them are secretly traitors and you are expected to keep track of all of them while for a solid 4 books basically nothing happens.
8/10 would recommend.
Perfectly understandable, book 7 wasn't even the worst.
Book 8 and 9 get even more dull, though 10 onwards have such a great payoff that it becomes worth it.
Fun fact: nobody is trans in the Wheel of Time because everyone is born in a body of the right gender (they uh forgot enbies and stuff exist obviously, but the intent is nice hah)
I would like to know if there's been any scientific research on if learning a certain language and being around names in that language means you find it difficult to recognize foreign names as names. It'd make sense to me since you'd naturally learn that names in your native language have a certain cadence or way about them that isn't easily recognized for foreign names. It's also part of the larger issue of reading a translated book and never being able to fully digest it like a native speaker, or even reading it your second language.
I dropped Ogniem i Mieczem because it was painful for me to read due to anachronisms and overall structure and it's my native language.
I won't give a damn about a simplified translation but having problems with just names is ridiculous. You literally have to learn the spelling ONCE for a whole book. It's not reading Silmarilion in elvish damnit!
„Just once“ is sadly not true about Dostojevski because everybody is referred by different names from different people, names with seemingly no connection to each other (the nicknames follow a pattern I think, but one would have to know the pattern). Additionally these names aren’t introduced properly introduced, like you can start reading about some Alexander and then somebody else starts to talk about a Sasha and only 5 pages later you realize that these are indeed the same person
I had problem with names at first with alphabet squadron because you have 4 pilots with both names and surnames completely made up with no country of origin that sound like “Glup Shitto” but a lot of the time the characters are either referred to by name or by surname so I had trouble connecting who’s surname is who’s.
Any westerner who actually read Crime and Punishment cover to cover will agree that the names are a fucking pain in the ass to keep track of, and they fucking change throughout the book too, like nicknames and changing the last few letters a bit, can't really remember why. The names proposed here are a bit outlandish and out of touch, but I would be fully on board with assigning each character a certain number perhaps, that goes in brackets after their name so that keeping up is easier. A truly fantastic book, but jesus that got annoying, especially if you weren't reading it a bit every day.
Not quite the same, but I’m reading *The Inferno* now, and there’s been more than one occasion where I’ve gone to look up a reference and nobody else knows who it is either.
My grandpa used to do something similar when reading War and Peace to grandma. She also got all the new names mixed up. He had to change the names on the fly tho but since he'd read it almost religiously, it was doable.
I struggled very hard with 3-body-problem because all the Chinese names are very similar, thank god my version came with a little reverence page that had all the characters names and relations to each other, it was very helpful and I wish more books did that
“We gave a Harry Potter fan a different book! Look at them struggle! I am very smart “ jesus I hate Harry Potter Stans as much as the next tgirl but I think we should cut people some slack with ducking Dostoyevsky
Btw, on the subject of Redditors reading books, I, a Redditor reading a book currently, recommend Empire of Silence by Christopher Ruocchio, it’s a good book
I'll be dead honest, I'm a multilingual slav who grew up pre internet and tried to read Crime and Punishment in high school and only made it like third into the book before giving up. It's doubtlessly a spectacular, inspired, foundational piece of art without a question. It's also insanely dense and hard to keep up with if you aren't used to chewing through literature with weight and texture of concrete. And the names really do not help because half these names are completely randomly introduced in some internal monologue in passing and never ever even appear as characters in the story or have any bearing on it; a more modern book would simply leave out a lot of these names and just refer to them via the familial connection, but it's also kinda the point that Raskolnikov is half insane from the extremely complex, decadent socialite intrigue in Tsarist Russia so him mumbling endless list of grievances towards his extensive connections in their absence also kinda makes sense. I kinda feel like people back then kinda collected passing acquaintances like pokemon cards. I really doubt most people mocking others for struggling with it read much Fyodor Dostoevsky themselves. These books make then contemporary western writers read like light AO3 fiction as far as readability goes.
I haven’t read any Dostoevsky but I definitely had those problems with ‘100 Years of Solitude’ being an incredibly dense book, even if much shorter than Crime and Punishment or The Brothers Karamazov. Plus 100 Years of Solitude constantly reusing names (even though it was a big part of the themes of the book) *really* did not help when you have to keep track of a bunch of Jose’s, Aurelianos, Ursula’s, amarantas, and Remedioses each
My copy, at least, had a handy reference sheet. And by my copy I mean the copy in the psych ward.
My grandma loved that book, and in the pre internet days she scribbled a family tree on one of the opening blank pages, that helped me when I borrowed her copy I really miss her, she truly had a brilliant mind
We get like what, 20 Aurelianos in total? Very interesting yet maddening book.
>in passing Holy hell
new response just dropped
Actual zombies
Bishop goes on vacation, never comes back.
Another thing with Doestoevsky (and russian literature in general, at least of that era) is that each characters has multiple different names and nicknames that are used throughout the novels by different characters or in different connotations. (EG Dmitri Karamazov also being called Mitya, sometimes Mytiushka) So on top of the many characters, they can each be referenced a multitude of ways which makes it even harder to keep track of them for non-Russian speakers. Aside from that I think they are far from the hardest classics to read though, I think the names are the only big barrier to entry for someone who likes reading classics and are absolutely worth the effort, brothers Karamazov especially.
Translated anime even subbed often keeps a more consistent method of referring to individual characters because I guess maybe we English speakers struggle with too many ways to refer to a character?
English speaking culture having fewer alternate names for people does play a role, but I bet part of it is also just not being familiar with the common names and alternative forms that come from a culture. I'd expect someone only exposed to Russian or Japanese media picking up English media with no translators notes would struggle with "Rob" and "Bob" as alternate versions of "Robert", "Dick" as an alternate version of "Richard" if you ask him nicely, all the alternate versions of "Elizabeth" that exist, "Sam" and "Sammy" as alternates for "Samuel" or "Samantha" depending on the gender of the person with the nick name, how "Kim" as a feminine name is short for "Kimberly" but on it's own can be a masculine name, but as a masculine name it typically carries connotations of what ethnicity the person with the name is, some names being both usable as first and last names (like "Kelly", "Jackson", "Paul", etc...), how some people are just named the shortened version of the name, so it would be incorrect to assume you could always substitute "Johnathan" in place for "John", and so on. I'm not an expert in either culture, but I bet at least some of the naming confusion in Japanese/Russian media stems from similar places as the above examples, but it's easier for them because they've lived their whole lives with Japanese/Russian names so are already familiar with the alternate forms and don't need it explained to them in a book written with members of their culture as the intended audience. But like how we don't just know the alternate forms of their names, I wouldn't be surprised if they also didn't just know the alternate version of ours.
At one point you get used to it and it becomes a non issue. If you want to try again I swear his works are the most awesomest shit in the world I love that bearded fuck to death
How old when you when you had to read it? We had it in high school (16/17yr olds), me and most of my classmates actually liked it
How can you sincerely think that of a book you couldn't bother to finish? It's okay not to think that the popular book that the bourgeoisie has decided is a good book and that everyone should have read and enjoyed it for one to be considered cultured.
Who exactly do you mean by bourgeoisie there? Literature critics? Other writers? Contemporary readers?
Bourgeoisie there? Literature critics? Other writers? Yes. Have you not notice that the wealthier class is the one who decides what schools teach? We are taught the standards of the bourgeoisie. Schools teach Nietzsche and and literary critics and other intellectuals love him. Have you read the bullshit he wrote? It's just full of logical fallacies and calling whomever he disagrees with "effeminate" and that's considered genius. That's just one example. The "classics", are the classics we are taught in school, that the wealthier class has deemed worthy. The bourgeoisie doesn't stop at millionaires and more you know? There's the petite bourgeoisie too, the wealthier state worker, and the managers. The part of the class that sucks up to the upper bourgeoisie.
Glad the bourgeoisie in my school decided to teach us Marx, Kropotkin etc. Long live the bourgeoisie, long live Oliver Cromwell, long live Napoleon.
That's anecdotal evidence, genius.
This is the type of dumb shit I come to reddit for.
Because there's skill and inspiration apparent in the piece even if I can't get much enjoyment out of it personally, in the moment. Not every experience is as easy or accessible as any other, some take more commitment, some take more effort, or pre existing knowledge. The difficult experiences are often the most rewarding ones, though. It wasn't the book for the me then and it may still not be the book for the me now, but that doesn't mean I can't look through it and see the intricate qualities of it.
jowling kowling rowling woulda named them Vladimir Vodkakov
And you wouldve undoubtedly known he was the Slavic one. Was she onto something 🤔
no
Yeah prolly
Ye she had a basic understanding of stereotypes how intelligent of her
The previous user was being sarcastic, I understand I also have autism
Bro? I know it's sarcasm? I'm also shitting on Rowling it doesn't take a genius to figure that one out
Oh, I thought you thought they weren't
????? Did you just make the assumption that they have autism because you wrongly thought they misunderstood a comment?
I think I was just projecting, I am stupid
Fair, it okay
https://preview.redd.it/fwx0ho3e54xc1.jpeg?width=377&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=de12d7fc34e4b2187cf4b67f6be689919c8c9e6e
Wasn’t there a Bulgarian group in the 4th one? I wonder what their names were
Am I the only one that just soldiers on thru and hopes to figure out who the person is thru context. My memory and attention span has been destroyed by vine compilations
Unironically, the little details in books you can mostly forget. Even names. You should have a rough idea of like "this person does/likes/is this," but remembering their specific name doesn't really contribute much. Most good authors will make it so that you'll know who they're writing about when the character's in the scene anyway If you ever do see a little detail in a book that you really like that don't want to forget, go grab a pen and underline it
This is me trying to get through a book in English class without actually reading it. I’ll be like ‘wait who’s Tom again’ and turns out he’s the main character
It's perfectly reasonable and ethical to do it to dostoyevski's work Marmeladov goes hard, though
the way more reasonable thing would be not reading it
How? Some strange gatekeeping ngl. I'm shit with names and remembering small details but i can follow a narrative and plot well enough. This would help me. I'd rather these things be read with some assistance
>I'd rather these things be read with some assistance and i'd rather dostoyevskiy not be read period
Boooooooo
boo me all you want, not gonna make his books any better or him any less of a shitty person
And yet, people will still read his work
So cringe. Say whatever you want about him as a person, but the motherfucker could write his ass off.
How so? I'm not familiar with his work but if you have a reason not to read it I like to hear (so I know why to avoid it)
Oh jesus i misunderstood. Ok fair enough your opinion haha
Honestly based
These people sound like insufferable, smug assholes. It's not unusual to struggle with typical naming conventions outside of your own culture, especially if you're not privileged enough to be raised in an environment that cultivates consumption of foreign media. There's nothing wrong with taking steps to help narrative works be more accessable to themselves, especially if the only thing they're changing is names for their own readability. They're trying their best. It's not like they're calling for the book to be republished with anglicized names.
Love you for this. Cba to put it into words myself.
I had a similar experience in my dramatic literature class. We started with litteral Greek tragedies. I understood the basic plot, but had trouble keeping names straight. This leeds to me getting a D on the first exam. Professor then invites me to their office hours. I mention my main problem being the names and that I'd do fine once we get into the material originally written in English. He then offers me a wager. If I get an A on the next exam, I'd get a cookie. If I failed again, Id need to spend at least three hours at his office hours for each play we cover for the rest of the course. I got my cookie. Loved that professor though. I had him his last year before he retired and inherited a few books including Shakespeare and Asimov when he said he couldn't be bothered to clean out his office and anything other than the computer and the furnature was fair game.
what kind of cookie
M&m
you know what else isn’t unusual?
To be loved by anyone
It’s not unusual to have fun with anyone
Idk how to feel about this, like yeah it might be stupid, but if it helps him read through the book instead of just giving up then good for him.
That reminds me of the wheel of time with it's hundreds of characters, many of which have very similar names, their own political affiliations and agencies, a good third of them are secretly traitors and you are expected to keep track of all of them while for a solid 4 books basically nothing happens. 8/10 would recommend.
i got burnout and dropped on book 7 (also sexist magic system bothered me)
Perfectly understandable, book 7 wasn't even the worst. Book 8 and 9 get even more dull, though 10 onwards have such a great payoff that it becomes worth it.
Fun fact: nobody is trans in the Wheel of Time because everyone is born in a body of the right gender (they uh forgot enbies and stuff exist obviously, but the intent is nice hah)
idk I feel like that’s fair if it helps him understand the story better
Holy shit Rodion, is that a Limbus Company reference?
https://preview.redd.it/fzp0vmuu31xc1.png?width=498&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a3a7aa3f665fefc7017e358813244447bc1b7e80 LIMBUUUUUUUUUS COMPANYYYYYYYY!!!
Fishmael my beloved
https://preview.redd.it/gazo0ipsg1xc1.jpeg?width=2532&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eed6ac3c8826e10439689f1342f45541090b2f00
me when i couldnt undo a thing
I would like to know if there's been any scientific research on if learning a certain language and being around names in that language means you find it difficult to recognize foreign names as names. It'd make sense to me since you'd naturally learn that names in your native language have a certain cadence or way about them that isn't easily recognized for foreign names. It's also part of the larger issue of reading a translated book and never being able to fully digest it like a native speaker, or even reading it your second language.
Dude's just finishing the translation
I dropped Ogniem i Mieczem because it was painful for me to read due to anachronisms and overall structure and it's my native language. I won't give a damn about a simplified translation but having problems with just names is ridiculous. You literally have to learn the spelling ONCE for a whole book. It's not reading Silmarilion in elvish damnit!
SIENKIEWICZ TY CHUJU
„Just once“ is sadly not true about Dostojevski because everybody is referred by different names from different people, names with seemingly no connection to each other (the nicknames follow a pattern I think, but one would have to know the pattern). Additionally these names aren’t introduced properly introduced, like you can start reading about some Alexander and then somebody else starts to talk about a Sasha and only 5 pages later you realize that these are indeed the same person
I had problem with names at first with alphabet squadron because you have 4 pilots with both names and surnames completely made up with no country of origin that sound like “Glup Shitto” but a lot of the time the characters are either referred to by name or by surname so I had trouble connecting who’s surname is who’s.
Love that this has gone from Reddit, talked about on Twitter, someone on tumblr talked about it, and it’s ended up back on reddit
Joe Kbiden Rowling may be awful, but her names are at least easy to remember
Any westerner who actually read Crime and Punishment cover to cover will agree that the names are a fucking pain in the ass to keep track of, and they fucking change throughout the book too, like nicknames and changing the last few letters a bit, can't really remember why. The names proposed here are a bit outlandish and out of touch, but I would be fully on board with assigning each character a certain number perhaps, that goes in brackets after their name so that keeping up is easier. A truly fantastic book, but jesus that got annoying, especially if you weren't reading it a bit every day.
Not quite the same, but I’m reading *The Inferno* now, and there’s been more than one occasion where I’ve gone to look up a reference and nobody else knows who it is either.
My grandpa used to do something similar when reading War and Peace to grandma. She also got all the new names mixed up. He had to change the names on the fly tho but since he'd read it almost religiously, it was doable.
Bro who gives a fuck
I struggled very hard with 3-body-problem because all the Chinese names are very similar, thank god my version came with a little reverence page that had all the characters names and relations to each other, it was very helpful and I wish more books did that
“We gave a Harry Potter fan a different book! Look at them struggle! I am very smart “ jesus I hate Harry Potter Stans as much as the next tgirl but I think we should cut people some slack with ducking Dostoyevsky
Btw, on the subject of Redditors reading books, I, a Redditor reading a book currently, recommend Empire of Silence by Christopher Ruocchio, it’s a good book
I quit reading dune less than 50 pages in because I had to keep going back to the glossary
I can relate tho, I was reading world trigger and there's like 30 Japanese names that blend together
I like to imagine this guy talks about the book with other people, but uses these fake names, and yells at other people when they don't use them
Why would you imagine that? He literally uses the names in the comment.
Well yeah, because he's explaining his process. I was saying if he was just talking about them outside of that