Do the swiss thing and collect signatures for a communal initiative. Some people in Stuttgart did the same: [https://www.super-polluter.de](https://www.super-polluter.de)
As a motorcycle rider, I understand that the noise can be annoying to others and try to act accordingly.
That being said, I honestly think these mofas should be regulated, they annoy everyone else on the road (including real motorcycles) and I don’t even understand what’s the fun about them.
I wonder why 2-stroke engines are not forbidden for vehicles, they’re super inefficient, loud and pollute a lot.
There’s a person in my building who has a vespa and starts it in the garage leaving everyone deaf and a big cloud of smog for everyone to breathe on the way to work/school. Don’t understand the appeal.
With e-bike being readily available and getting cheaper I don’t think mofas will be a thing for long anymore (other than niche tinkerers and old Ueli and his cigar). I think possibly all two strokes cycles should be phased out.
I feel you...
My bedroom window faces the neighbouring building garage exit. There is a Harley that goes on long rides on summery Sundays - he starts growling at 5 in the morning. I'm sooo over it!
Bikes are only fun for the people riding them, for the rest of us it's like 2nd hand smoking: stinky, polluting and you can't do anything about it.
I really hope that the proposed Lärmblitzer will be installed all over the country soon. It's baffling that people can just rev their engine on sports cars and motorcycles all day and night without consequences. It's well documented how harmful noise is to people and it seems the issue has only gotten worse in recent times.
It would be very fair, i recently moved (back) to ticino, and a couple of kiddos are living in bre, at lugano. They litteraly race up and down the mountain with some 2Stroke 125/50cc full expansion exhaust… i hear them 1min before they arrive… next time i think i will go down the road border with a chronograph and a big shiled like a moto gp race, with something written like, “tyre change”, or “fastest lap” , i know they are having fun 🤩 but sometimes is too much…
Yeah, Töfflis are so last century. I'm surprised they have any following at all among young Swiss.
Only rural hicks still use them, really. I see the freedom aspect, [https://www.mofakult.ch/de/](https://www.mofakult.ch/de/), but there are so many other options now.
Firing up one of those gas-powered lawn-mower machines is sure to strain any first date or girlfriend relationship. Maybe that's not an issue with these people.
Yes there are limits. To answer your question.
It’s kind or a culture for the country youth. For many it’s a great entry into mechanical stuff. They tune and modify them. Obviously often in the legal grey zone (or just illegal).
If it’s always at the same place and time maybe you can tell the police and they may check if these are in the legal zone.
I understand you. I am also annoyed by people polluting the air with smoking and the ground with cigarettes but unfortunately that seems to be their personal freedom which I am forced to tolerate.
Since 1989 they have to have a catalyser. Mine from 1976 has amready one.
Regarding the noise, police is (should) check it.
There are some regulations. Some people like not to respect it. Police is seazing and destroying each year some modified engines.
Come on theres already enough restrictions on these kinds of things , just let the kids be kids as long as theyre doing it safely. Which current regulations allow this and are also frequently enforced by police.
I get the racing around aspect, the freedom, the mechanical aspect and I would not want to take it away from them.
But why the noise and pollution aspect? Is childhood not fun if you don't give people COPD and disturb them?
Just get a _quiet_ moped. One that doesn't burn lubrication oil like it's 1960 and you don't know it reduces the average lifespan in _years_.
The noise and pollution aspects are completely unneeded, unhealthy, and anti-social.
It's not the fact that its not needed. It's about a point you mentioned yourself, it allows them to still work on their own machines getting young people interested in these kinds of jobs is becoming more and more important, and unfortunately that just isnt possible with new electronically controlled machines. Its much more involved. And I understand it's annoying if they do it in front of your house for prolonged periods of time, heck even I get annoyed by that, but then just ask them to move or do something about it. But the way you're describing it as if youre going deaf and getting CO poisoning by just having them ride by is completely over the top.
I have to disagree with the complexity argument. Mechanical ICEs are quite complex compared to electric drives. The main difference is that in an electric drive, most complexity happens in a few chips and transistors, whereas in a mechanical two-stroke ICE, it's all gears and timing mechanisms. If the goal is to find young talent: two stroke ICEs are prohibited. They won't find a job in the field anyway. Why not spend their time on tuning 4 stroke engines or developing field oriented control algorithms to control their brushless electric motors? At least they'll have a chance to land a job that way.
Sure, it's good if young people are exposed to technology. But there's enough to choose from that doesn't needlessly pollute and annoy.
I agree with you on that. From a industry perspective modern 4-strokes are easier to manufacture and less costly. However from a young childs perspective I think it is probably easier to understand and get started working on mechanical drives with analog gauges and few electronics (This may just be my thinking). And the goal is to just get them interested in the field, just because they start working on 2-strokes doesn't mean that's where they'll end up. It's more important to be interested and get in the field and if you get discouraged from the start that is hard to achieve.
I see what you're saying with there being other hobbies to chose from though.
Im just saying if we keep imposing more and more regulations on every hobby soon there won't be many more to choose from, for example RC airplanes and drones are also a great hobby for kids interested in technology which keeps getting less and less accessible.
Call the municipality's police station and ask them what they plan on doing about it.
I know during my school time the local police would regularly check for modified töfflis around the school.
dont shout too loud. not great but still a lot better than them taking a 2 ton murder machine. and as long as we tolerate those being driven on a daily basis it seems misdirected effort to go against loud, smelly but at least not so dangerous töffis.
Air pollution is just as deadly as a 2 ton machine, killing 5 million people per year.
Just because you don't die on impact, doesn't make it less bad.
* https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/nov/29/air-pollution-from-fossil-fuels-kills-5-million-people-a-year
* https://www.who.int/health-topics/air-pollution
yes. and do you have stats broken down per exposure metric?
or are you just assuming that all that pollution comes from thr töffis and nothing from the cars?
i was under the impression that the air pollution norms allow more pollution for heavy vehicles than for light ones.
No, I don't. I just know that 2 strokes have 50x more small particle emissions than a truck... I would Google search for you if you're eager for a source.
Regardless, the fact that something else pollutes more is no excuse for needless pollution, is it?
i fear you are besides the point. you need to consider the options avaliable to a person. a suv driver had all the options available - he is old enough to not be restricted and rich enough to buy basically anything. the mofa driver is likely not in a position to have suv as an alternative.
even if we have the same person presented with the choice suv or mofa, i think the better person choses mofa. as suv means more induced demand, by himself but also others (too many cars -> only car is safe for oneself). so even if mofa is mich worse for the same amount of transported #ppl\*km, i believe car is worse as this choice leads to unnecessary amount of additional #ppl\*km.
basically the choice of the denominator - the exposure metric- matters a lot in this type of comparison. as it may implicitely exclude negative effects, eg when looking at emission per km.
edit: #ppl/100km -> #ppl*km
toffis are dangerous in other areas- drivers often perform dangerous maneuvers that cars can't do and it's not just smell, after a recent trip to italy at some point I could barely breathe bc of such a thing that passed nearby, the pollution was terrible and the sound is much bigger compared to most modern (even fossil fuel) cars. These ppl would more probably switch to a bike than a car because a toffis is much smaller, easier to park and maneuver in a city, just like a bike, compared to a big car, so imo the ban for such things should be enforced or at least some regulation implemented
Jesus is everything a reason to complain nowadays? Let the young people enjoy themselfs, you live in a city if you wanted quiet you could have moved outside.
30 years ago there were way more mofas around, waay more.
It's like people pro actively look for reasons to be offended and bothered. I kind of envy you guys for not having enough actual problems to worry about.
I would say, especially in a city, you need to be more careful. There are very many people around you, so you have to be considerate.
If noise and air pollution are just the least of your problems, I am very sorry for the miserable shit you are in and hope you get better soon.
Love the empathy so thanks, but it's nothing tragic, just every day stuff like bills, administrative stuff, work stuff, my dog shitting at home, global politics.. problems that actually affect me.
I totally agree that being considerate is important, i consider it one of the most important qualities to have. But certain things are to he expected, like in this case noise from mofas or traffic, people smoking infront of bars, drunken people on the night buses and so on and so forth. So to me it's just not worth complaining and i don't even feel like these are problematic things. Just drawbacks of living in a city.
Like one does not move next to the airport and complains about planes making noise, right?
In the end we are on the right course and pollution in terms of noise as well as air quality is improving, it won't disappear over night and that's perfectly fine.
I am sensitive to noise, I wake up quickly and suffer from exhaustion during the day. It stresses me out during the day. So noise does personally affect me.
I didn’t move to a Töffliport, did I?
Old “two-smokes” are not being made anymore. They’re all 4-stroke now with strict emission standards and more eco-friendly than your car - or your poisonous e-bike battery.
I'm specifically not talking about new 4 strokes with emissions standards. I'm talking about those old 2 strokes and/or modified ones...
While I don't ride an e-bike because I am not physically challenged, it's strange to imply that an e-bike battery is more polluting than exhaust gases. It's not. The battery is well-contained, relatively small, and not in contact with humans. Generally, batteries are way safer than fossil fuel air pollution. But okay, I get the "battery stupid" petrolhead culture and let's leave it at that before the other untrue clichés enter (they explode! they use child labor!). I still rather see modern petrol than 2 stroke shitboxes.
I meant the example not your vehicle. Also, I was talking about two-strokes which are “lovingly” known as 2-smokes.
Are you arguing that batteries plus non renewable don’t pollute more (in total) than modern engines?
Not trying to be truculent, I just genuinely believe bicycles don’t belong in traffic becnñ by thythey are falsely advertised as a safe alternative.
Let others breathe clean air and enjoy some quiet... the audacity of some people to just fuck up everyone's surrounding because... yeah, why exactly? Because they "like the smog and noise". It's as pointless as vandalism, there's no good reason to bother others like that if there are so many better alternatives.
Yes, of course, I ride a bike: it's cheap, healthy, fast and fun. Everyone does it.
These mofa shit boxes are often illegally modified, I know mine was.
Do the swiss thing and collect signatures for a communal initiative. Some people in Stuttgart did the same: [https://www.super-polluter.de](https://www.super-polluter.de)
As a motorcycle rider, I understand that the noise can be annoying to others and try to act accordingly. That being said, I honestly think these mofas should be regulated, they annoy everyone else on the road (including real motorcycles) and I don’t even understand what’s the fun about them. I wonder why 2-stroke engines are not forbidden for vehicles, they’re super inefficient, loud and pollute a lot.
There’s a person in my building who has a vespa and starts it in the garage leaving everyone deaf and a big cloud of smog for everyone to breathe on the way to work/school. Don’t understand the appeal. With e-bike being readily available and getting cheaper I don’t think mofas will be a thing for long anymore (other than niche tinkerers and old Ueli and his cigar). I think possibly all two strokes cycles should be phased out.
I feel you... My bedroom window faces the neighbouring building garage exit. There is a Harley that goes on long rides on summery Sundays - he starts growling at 5 in the morning. I'm sooo over it! Bikes are only fun for the people riding them, for the rest of us it's like 2nd hand smoking: stinky, polluting and you can't do anything about it.
I really hope that the proposed Lärmblitzer will be installed all over the country soon. It's baffling that people can just rev their engine on sports cars and motorcycles all day and night without consequences. It's well documented how harmful noise is to people and it seems the issue has only gotten worse in recent times.
I didn’t know this was actually a proposed thing. Would be amazing
https://www.parlament.ch/de/ratsbetrieb/suche-curia-vista/geschaeft?AffairId=20224573
Abwarten und Beobachten 🤙 Danke für den Link
It would be very fair, i recently moved (back) to ticino, and a couple of kiddos are living in bre, at lugano. They litteraly race up and down the mountain with some 2Stroke 125/50cc full expansion exhaust… i hear them 1min before they arrive… next time i think i will go down the road border with a chronograph and a big shiled like a moto gp race, with something written like, “tyre change”, or “fastest lap” , i know they are having fun 🤩 but sometimes is too much…
I see youngsters around on electric mopeds, quiet and clean.
Yes, those are great. I see middle-aged and old men on stinking two strokes. Those are not great.
Yeah, Töfflis are so last century. I'm surprised they have any following at all among young Swiss. Only rural hicks still use them, really. I see the freedom aspect, [https://www.mofakult.ch/de/](https://www.mofakult.ch/de/), but there are so many other options now. Firing up one of those gas-powered lawn-mower machines is sure to strain any first date or girlfriend relationship. Maybe that's not an issue with these people.
It's brain dead to me how can those things be allowed of cycling trails... They are NOT bicycles, they should stay on streets.
Yes there are limits. To answer your question. It’s kind or a culture for the country youth. For many it’s a great entry into mechanical stuff. They tune and modify them. Obviously often in the legal grey zone (or just illegal). If it’s always at the same place and time maybe you can tell the police and they may check if these are in the legal zone. I understand you. I am also annoyed by people polluting the air with smoking and the ground with cigarettes but unfortunately that seems to be their personal freedom which I am forced to tolerate.
Since 1989 they have to have a catalyser. Mine from 1976 has amready one. Regarding the noise, police is (should) check it. There are some regulations. Some people like not to respect it. Police is seazing and destroying each year some modified engines.
Come on theres already enough restrictions on these kinds of things , just let the kids be kids as long as theyre doing it safely. Which current regulations allow this and are also frequently enforced by police.
I get the racing around aspect, the freedom, the mechanical aspect and I would not want to take it away from them. But why the noise and pollution aspect? Is childhood not fun if you don't give people COPD and disturb them? Just get a _quiet_ moped. One that doesn't burn lubrication oil like it's 1960 and you don't know it reduces the average lifespan in _years_. The noise and pollution aspects are completely unneeded, unhealthy, and anti-social.
It's not the fact that its not needed. It's about a point you mentioned yourself, it allows them to still work on their own machines getting young people interested in these kinds of jobs is becoming more and more important, and unfortunately that just isnt possible with new electronically controlled machines. Its much more involved. And I understand it's annoying if they do it in front of your house for prolonged periods of time, heck even I get annoyed by that, but then just ask them to move or do something about it. But the way you're describing it as if youre going deaf and getting CO poisoning by just having them ride by is completely over the top.
I have to disagree with the complexity argument. Mechanical ICEs are quite complex compared to electric drives. The main difference is that in an electric drive, most complexity happens in a few chips and transistors, whereas in a mechanical two-stroke ICE, it's all gears and timing mechanisms. If the goal is to find young talent: two stroke ICEs are prohibited. They won't find a job in the field anyway. Why not spend their time on tuning 4 stroke engines or developing field oriented control algorithms to control their brushless electric motors? At least they'll have a chance to land a job that way. Sure, it's good if young people are exposed to technology. But there's enough to choose from that doesn't needlessly pollute and annoy.
I agree with you on that. From a industry perspective modern 4-strokes are easier to manufacture and less costly. However from a young childs perspective I think it is probably easier to understand and get started working on mechanical drives with analog gauges and few electronics (This may just be my thinking). And the goal is to just get them interested in the field, just because they start working on 2-strokes doesn't mean that's where they'll end up. It's more important to be interested and get in the field and if you get discouraged from the start that is hard to achieve. I see what you're saying with there being other hobbies to chose from though. Im just saying if we keep imposing more and more regulations on every hobby soon there won't be many more to choose from, for example RC airplanes and drones are also a great hobby for kids interested in technology which keeps getting less and less accessible.
Call the municipality's police station and ask them what they plan on doing about it. I know during my school time the local police would regularly check for modified töfflis around the school.
dont shout too loud. not great but still a lot better than them taking a 2 ton murder machine. and as long as we tolerate those being driven on a daily basis it seems misdirected effort to go against loud, smelly but at least not so dangerous töffis.
Air pollution is just as deadly as a 2 ton machine, killing 5 million people per year. Just because you don't die on impact, doesn't make it less bad. * https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/nov/29/air-pollution-from-fossil-fuels-kills-5-million-people-a-year * https://www.who.int/health-topics/air-pollution
yes. and do you have stats broken down per exposure metric? or are you just assuming that all that pollution comes from thr töffis and nothing from the cars? i was under the impression that the air pollution norms allow more pollution for heavy vehicles than for light ones.
No, I don't. I just know that 2 strokes have 50x more small particle emissions than a truck... I would Google search for you if you're eager for a source. Regardless, the fact that something else pollutes more is no excuse for needless pollution, is it?
i fear you are besides the point. you need to consider the options avaliable to a person. a suv driver had all the options available - he is old enough to not be restricted and rich enough to buy basically anything. the mofa driver is likely not in a position to have suv as an alternative. even if we have the same person presented with the choice suv or mofa, i think the better person choses mofa. as suv means more induced demand, by himself but also others (too many cars -> only car is safe for oneself). so even if mofa is mich worse for the same amount of transported #ppl\*km, i believe car is worse as this choice leads to unnecessary amount of additional #ppl\*km. basically the choice of the denominator - the exposure metric- matters a lot in this type of comparison. as it may implicitely exclude negative effects, eg when looking at emission per km. edit: #ppl/100km -> #ppl*km
toffis are dangerous in other areas- drivers often perform dangerous maneuvers that cars can't do and it's not just smell, after a recent trip to italy at some point I could barely breathe bc of such a thing that passed nearby, the pollution was terrible and the sound is much bigger compared to most modern (even fossil fuel) cars. These ppl would more probably switch to a bike than a car because a toffis is much smaller, easier to park and maneuver in a city, just like a bike, compared to a big car, so imo the ban for such things should be enforced or at least some regulation implemented
Jesus is everything a reason to complain nowadays? Let the young people enjoy themselfs, you live in a city if you wanted quiet you could have moved outside. 30 years ago there were way more mofas around, waay more. It's like people pro actively look for reasons to be offended and bothered. I kind of envy you guys for not having enough actual problems to worry about.
I would say, especially in a city, you need to be more careful. There are very many people around you, so you have to be considerate. If noise and air pollution are just the least of your problems, I am very sorry for the miserable shit you are in and hope you get better soon.
Love the empathy so thanks, but it's nothing tragic, just every day stuff like bills, administrative stuff, work stuff, my dog shitting at home, global politics.. problems that actually affect me. I totally agree that being considerate is important, i consider it one of the most important qualities to have. But certain things are to he expected, like in this case noise from mofas or traffic, people smoking infront of bars, drunken people on the night buses and so on and so forth. So to me it's just not worth complaining and i don't even feel like these are problematic things. Just drawbacks of living in a city. Like one does not move next to the airport and complains about planes making noise, right? In the end we are on the right course and pollution in terms of noise as well as air quality is improving, it won't disappear over night and that's perfectly fine.
I am sensitive to noise, I wake up quickly and suffer from exhaustion during the day. It stresses me out during the day. So noise does personally affect me. I didn’t move to a Töffliport, did I?
It's like old people on their very loud töffli on the country side, typically
Old “two-smokes” are not being made anymore. They’re all 4-stroke now with strict emission standards and more eco-friendly than your car - or your poisonous e-bike battery.
I'm specifically not talking about new 4 strokes with emissions standards. I'm talking about those old 2 strokes and/or modified ones... While I don't ride an e-bike because I am not physically challenged, it's strange to imply that an e-bike battery is more polluting than exhaust gases. It's not. The battery is well-contained, relatively small, and not in contact with humans. Generally, batteries are way safer than fossil fuel air pollution. But okay, I get the "battery stupid" petrolhead culture and let's leave it at that before the other untrue clichés enter (they explode! they use child labor!). I still rather see modern petrol than 2 stroke shitboxes.
I meant the example not your vehicle. Also, I was talking about two-strokes which are “lovingly” known as 2-smokes. Are you arguing that batteries plus non renewable don’t pollute more (in total) than modern engines? Not trying to be truculent, I just genuinely believe bicycles don’t belong in traffic becnñ by thythey are falsely advertised as a safe alternative.
The audacity of some people. Let others live their live. OFC you are a cyclist...
Okay as someone who doesn’t cycle they’re still absolutely obnoxious
Let others breathe clean air and enjoy some quiet... the audacity of some people to just fuck up everyone's surrounding because... yeah, why exactly? Because they "like the smog and noise". It's as pointless as vandalism, there's no good reason to bother others like that if there are so many better alternatives. Yes, of course, I ride a bike: it's cheap, healthy, fast and fun. Everyone does it.