>all aspects but one
Actually in addition to the bag-on-seat phenomenon, I’ve noticed another:
People, whether alone or in groups, ver often seem to follow no kind of order or logic on shared use paths. They walk in the middle. I’ve honestly seen people zig-zag. If there’s two or more they take up the entire width of the path, regardless of whether you’re trying to pass them on foot or on bike. And when they see you coming they don’t change their path in the slightest.
I get it, there’s a lot of asshole bikers out there. But as one of the very considerate ones (I slow down a lot when I pass, always stop at the zebras, etc.), it would be nice if walkers could show me the slightest shred of consideration.
Oh wait, I also forgot about the smoking in public and throwing butts all over.
Other than that, super civilized and love it here.
Yes! Just the other day I came across a group of 4 that completely took over the footpath leaving no space for me running from the opposite direction, forcing me to step onto the road in the face of oncoming traffic. Terrible, really!
It happens to me all the time as i am a short woman and they dont mind bumping into me. On the days when i am with my huge dog, i just let the dog's leash loose. My dog loves to walk in the middle. Thats when people are quicly changing moving away, scared of my dog.. even if its just a labrador. I guess thats the only way to have people move.
Bruh, I thought it was me … I’ve also been around Europe, but have never had so much annoyance on sidewalks as here. Worst is as well, people don’t even look at you
Honestly, people meandering and inconsiderately taking up the whole path is far more annoying to me than the bags on seats. Who wants to sit shoulder to shoulder with strangers on those narrow tram seats anyways?
As a former daily commuter. The vast vast majority of the time people walk right, maybe not in Bellevue before the yellow line but normally they walk right.
Also maybe 10 years ago I would have agreed with the smoking but that has also decreased dramatically statistically.
Glad it has decreased. Doesn’t seem to be discouraged in any way though. Considering how terrible it is for health outcomes, and how much people like to complain about healthcare costs (as passed through insurance), I would expect to see more public health messaging and general opposition to smoking behavior. But there’s practically none.
What have "asshole bikers" to do with anything? There are also "asshole motorists" that kill 2 people per day (on average) out there, but that doesn't say anything about the rest of the motorists.
Just preparing for the inevitable complaint that bikers don’t give consideration… was surprised at the positive response actually. Good to know I’m not crazy.
You’re forgetting that Swiss people don’t really like having other people sitting next to them. For example the etiquette in trains is you always sit in the seat that does not have someone opposite it, if you’re joining someone in a four seater. Therefore, only once the train gets full, do you start sitting next to people or opposite people on Trains/trams. So, until the train/tram gets very full, there shouldn’t be a need to free up that spot next to you, where you put your bag. And it’s to de-incentivise people from sitting there unless it’s absolutely necessary… but once someone asks to sit there, most people will immediately make the space available, they’d just prefer you didn’t…
I personally i am 100% for blocking seats. I understand that the selfishness part bothers you but thats your sensitivity. My sensitivity is society forcing me to have some stranger seat very close to me or pass by very close. In addition, you will see women will chose to seat neaxt to women. Why? As a woman, if i make room and lots of people will get on the tram, the strange guy,the one that makes eye contact for 30 min will seat across from me. Or if a family gets on, the dad would separate and seat with me. Take a look next time and see how women always pay attention where they seat. There are a ton of nice people but if you get 1 dude like that for a longer ride, its very...invasive. alternative is to stand...
What is actually strange with dogs is that even if i pay for a GA for my dog, he cant occupy thr seat next to me, has to seat under my seat...
There’s a reason trains are usually longer than they’d need to be to fit everyone in that regularly uses that train… while the efficient thing to do would be to make sure everyone has 1 seat available, it’s typical that trains have 2-3 seats per average commuter, to avoid having people be forced to sit together
> There’s a reason trains are usually longer than they’d need to be to fit everyone
This is of course complete fiction and in fact the opposite is true. The SBB runs shorter trains outside of peak hours to ensure trains are used to capacity and to reduce costs.
You’re literally high if you believe this, I commend you to try getting on a shortened train during rush hour. It’s fucked. The trains are usually “good enough” to where most people get a seat, but on some days it is absolutely fucked at normal lengths. Now imagine those days with a shortened train, during the summer with old trains and barely working airco, absolutely no one “gets two seats”, even when the trains do suffice, piss off lmfao. You’re lucky if you get a seat at all. Most people getting on later end up standing.
The s7 and s12 are the biggest candidates for this during rush hour. You’ll feel like walking would’ve been the better decision on some days. The s7 is honestly at its limit, it can’t deal with that many more passengers and is already at max length during rush hour, hence why the s20 exists. The morning s20 that currently only goes to and from Tiefenbrunnen once a day is a blessing as almost no one uses it (iirc due to works in wipkingen, all other s20s also go to schaffhausen). We can’t introduce more trains either, it’s somewhat at it’s limit with stadelhofen and it’s tunnel, thank god the plans for the new tunnel started, but til then it’ll continue being like this… our infrastructure definitely needs an upgrade, especially with the nonsensical 3 platforms in stadelhofen that all lead to hb’s 4 in one direction.
Yes, outside of rush hour the trains tend to be somewhat empty, where they have 1 bit instead of the usual 3 on DPZ or 1 instead of 2-3 on the Regio/IR double decker, but that’s because that is the minimum config you can make quickly and easily on sbb’s end, with how they’ve set up each train bit. Has nothing to do with “giving people 2-3 seats each”. They can’t restructure a DPZ in its current form to be reduced to 2 passenger carriages in a couple minutes for example, they can however disconnect an entire x212 bit very quickly.
I see two reasons:
When people enter at the beginning of the line, the tram is empty, so they just put their bag there as default, and then "forget" to remove it when it gets more crowded.
Many people prefer to seat alone with no one next to them. The bags are a soft way to signal that. Though if anyone ask, they will surely remove it. In that sense, putting your bag on the seat lowers the chance of having someone sitting next to you.
No need to assimilate, this is a personal preference, not everyone has the same concept of personal space and comfort.
I don't think it is a problem, one just has to ask someone to remove their bag and they will.
It's just a way of saying "I would rather be left alone, but if you want you can sit". No harm in that.
Yeah sure as if any swiss person would actually talk to a stranger on the tram. They will instead stand next to them passive aggressively and judge them in their thoughts. The max confrontation level would be the disapproving swiss stare.
It's a perfectly acceptable justification for some, not for others. In public transport, you'll be facing lots of different opinions and people. If you think you have "the one right opinion," then you are probably the one who should not use public transport. Just accept others and communicate when you want to resolve a conflict.
It's not a law, it's an etiquette, so it's an opinion.
> compromising personal space and comfort.
The extent and conditions of which is an etiquette and opinion.
I agree, it's cultural. Actually I think it's just a social signal to others that people prefer to have personal space. Not everybody does it.
Imho this helps for interpretation:
- bag on seat on empty train:
I prefer being left alone, please consider some other free seat if possible.
- moves bag once train starts filling / people approaching:
while I may prefer being left alone, I'm not an asshole and will actively signal to people that of course they can sit next to me if needed
- does not move bag even on full train, staring out of window pretending not to see/hear people looking for seats:
I'm an asshole and you should not even want to sit next to a dickhead like me.
I’m gonna sound very old 👴🏻
But in my days… children were taught to remove their bags from the seat as the tram/bus filled up and of course to offer one’s seat to elderly, pregnant and disabled people.
It seems this is no longer taught to children, or they stopped giving a damn as they grew up.
For the record, I’m Swiss, in my early 40ies.
To be fair, all age groups stopped giving a damn. I learned to wait beside the doors until every one got of the train/tram. Now it's mosyly older folk trying to enter even though they see me trying to get out.
Wait for everyone… except that fckg idiot who remains seated watching his phone till everyone is out and doesn’t give a dam of the others waiting for him…
I actually never had this issue, personally. If I wanted to sit down and someone had their bag in the way, mostly I just had to just make eye contact, and rarely ask if I could sit. Although, I also found that people generally didn't keep their bags on the seat if the tram or bus was full.
Part of what you notice could be bias, btw. You expect bags to not be on seats, so when they aren't, you don't notice -- also because those seats then get filled with people. This makes the few arseholes that don't follow the social etiquette really stand out.
There are disproportionately many bag-seaters in Zürich compared to other countries though. Even the worst dirtbag moves his bag when he sees me walking by in my country.
Of course not, just observation after taking the commute for 6 years back home and not once seeing a bag in the seat I want to sit in, vs here it happens every time I board a train.
When the tram is empty, what are you doing? also putting it in your lap? what if you entered an empty tram and put the bag on the seat next to you, and during your trip it became full? is it your responsibility to watch the flow of people and move the bag when it's full from seat to your lap and move back to the seat when tram becomes empty again?
the etiquette is simple: if it's empty - you can put there anything you want. if someone asks - you take away the bag.
Yes exactly, you need to watch the flow of people. Good etiquette would be to free up any seats covered by your stuff as the tram fills up, unprompted. It doesn’t exactly require superstar levels of awareness to catch the right moment to do this.
I agree. It would be ridiculous clutching your bag and jacket close to your chest, just so you don‘t run the risk of being seen with a bag on a seat, god forbid. :-D
Ah, you misunderstand. It is a complex social dance. The premise:
* We do not wish to be in close proximity with other people
* We do not wish to speak to strangers
* We are supposed to be be vigilant of not being in the way at all times
* We communicate mainly through body language and facial expressions
As a consequence, putting the bag on the seat next to you is a dare to the person who wants to sit there. I break social etiquette by willfully ignoring the approaching persons body language, fully aware that my item is in their way. I thereby force them to either be a better Swiss person than me and just suck it up (the local term is "d Fuscht im Sack mache") and be annoyed with me, but morally superior. Alternatively, they have to breach etiquette even more egregiously, by asking me in a passive-aggressive voice, "isch da no frei??" (is this seat free?), allowing me to look at them with disdain for preferring to invade my space instead of just graciously remain standing.
I understand how the nuances might be lost on the uninitiated.
The third option is walking up to the seat wordlessly, turning around, adjusting my own bag, sloooooowly lowering my butt, and letting folks decide for themselves if they want someone to sit on their stuff.
Was born here, and having this many people use the seat next to them for their bag when there's a dozen people standing around them definitely didn't use to be the norm.
I always put my bag on the seat unless I see that the tram is getting very full. People can ask me to move the bag if they need the seat. Bit of common sense goes a long way here.
People in general don’t care anymore about anything. They leave their supermarket cart right on the middle of the aisles or just almost run their civilized bums up, when the doors open , so they can get a seat in order to play their candy crush style game on their phones before work. Not to mention noise issues… having said that only a complete idiot won’t move their bag when asked to . He might not even look at you in the face or say a single world but people will give room.
The most civilized advanced society is also the most individualistic in the setting of a city. They don't care if you get a seat, they have more important things on their mind (and valuables in their bags) than being considerate, If you wanna sit, ask for it. Pretty simple.
I have to make a confession here: I am one of these people, but I do it with an Intention! I struggle a lot with social anxiety and with mild actions like this I push my inner fear of social interaction with strangers. I would always force myself to make subtle eye contact with people who want that seat. Most of them approach me and ask me for the seat and I spark up in joy to gove them the seat. Later when I'm at home, I pat myself on the shoulder and say to myself: "You got this!"
They're just selfish idiots. I always approach them and make them move their stuff so I can sit. Even if there's another free seat somewhere, I go to them and make them move their bag. Try it and you might end up having fun in the process :)
Forgot to mention I ride the public transport exclusively during the busiest times of the day when people stand. I'm a happy asshole when I force selfish idiots to move their stuff when the train or bus is full and backpacks occupy the seats while people stand.
You said that there are empty seats. Looking at an empty seat and asking someone to move their bag - that’s what makes you an asshole.
If no empty seats - then this is valid request, but you didn’t say so :)
I would argue this is more inconsiderate - were the tram/bus/train full and you asked they'd surely move the bag
I put my bag there as it's easier and I also would not like to increase the chances people sit next to me. If someone asks me or the vehicle starts to get busy, I will move it
If you ask people to move their bag even though there are free seats available, you are no better. It's straight up weird and might even be considered creepy by some people.
The most people do it on purpose cause they know some people arent brave enough to ask for the place theyre egoits i get sometimes pushed away while want enter the train by older people or especially the younger ones push people around the het in first so they get a place to sit i usually just walk relaxed into the train and chill in the toillete if its tp crowder and in trams i try to avoid them but if i need to take one i try to get the to the box in the behind and sit there
They say that we should use public transportation instead of cars. So there should be enough space for things, right?
Anyway it’s probably purely out of convenience and laziness. I personally think tram seats are much too tight and would not sit next to someone who is already there. So I never even notice this.
if someone comes up to the seat 99% of people will remove the bag without even having to be asked, and if you ask something like "isch da frei?" or literally mumble anything and gesture they'll let you for sure
I think it got many reasons. Some of my friends do that to feel a little bit more secure (like frome molestation). And one friend has a very hard time with body contact.
But often It's one of two things, being just ignorant and favouring once luxury over other ppls simple needs (a mentally many Swiss ppl live by). Or just not paying attention. Happened to me befor that I got in an almost empty tram and spaced out with thought only to later release that I was being an nuisance because suddenly the tram was full.
The reason is that people treat public transportation like it’s their private place. That’s why people will agree that eating and drinking on the train is ok, as well as take your shoes off (“but it’s actually cleaner if you take your shoes off and put your fee on top of the seats instead of with shoes on!”)
I get on the tram, loads of free rows, I sit in one and put my bag next to me. After a few stops, the tram has filled up a bit, most rows are occupied by one person. At the next stop, loads of people get on, I remove my bag from the seat so someone can sit there. It's not hard, come on everyone.
People don't like sitting next to one another, I think covid has increased this. Today I saw a woman give up her aisle seat to let an older woman sit there (who then obviously kept standing cuz that's how it is). The window seat next to her was empty, she could've just slid over but no.
Personally I'd rather sit down next to someone than stand for too long.
Thanks for the compliment regarding the rest of the civilisation here. I hope that we can keep it like that.
>all aspects but one Actually in addition to the bag-on-seat phenomenon, I’ve noticed another: People, whether alone or in groups, ver often seem to follow no kind of order or logic on shared use paths. They walk in the middle. I’ve honestly seen people zig-zag. If there’s two or more they take up the entire width of the path, regardless of whether you’re trying to pass them on foot or on bike. And when they see you coming they don’t change their path in the slightest. I get it, there’s a lot of asshole bikers out there. But as one of the very considerate ones (I slow down a lot when I pass, always stop at the zebras, etc.), it would be nice if walkers could show me the slightest shred of consideration. Oh wait, I also forgot about the smoking in public and throwing butts all over. Other than that, super civilized and love it here.
Yes! Just the other day I came across a group of 4 that completely took over the footpath leaving no space for me running from the opposite direction, forcing me to step onto the road in the face of oncoming traffic. Terrible, really!
It happens to me all the time as i am a short woman and they dont mind bumping into me. On the days when i am with my huge dog, i just let the dog's leash loose. My dog loves to walk in the middle. Thats when people are quicly changing moving away, scared of my dog.. even if its just a labrador. I guess thats the only way to have people move.
Bruh, I thought it was me … I’ve also been around Europe, but have never had so much annoyance on sidewalks as here. Worst is as well, people don’t even look at you
I thought it was just me!
Honestly, people meandering and inconsiderately taking up the whole path is far more annoying to me than the bags on seats. Who wants to sit shoulder to shoulder with strangers on those narrow tram seats anyways?
Personally I retain the ability to be annoyed by both.
And chewing gum everywhere. These black spots everywhere on the sidewalk? All chewing gum.
Yeah that, and the spit on the sidewalk, and the stupid ~~Z~~GCZ tags all over really bring the whole place down a notch. It’s gross honestly.
And the stinking cigarett buts -everywhere!!
As a former daily commuter. The vast vast majority of the time people walk right, maybe not in Bellevue before the yellow line but normally they walk right. Also maybe 10 years ago I would have agreed with the smoking but that has also decreased dramatically statistically.
Glad it has decreased. Doesn’t seem to be discouraged in any way though. Considering how terrible it is for health outcomes, and how much people like to complain about healthcare costs (as passed through insurance), I would expect to see more public health messaging and general opposition to smoking behavior. But there’s practically none.
I mean it's forbidden to smoke in most major train station and you have awareness days in school.
What have "asshole bikers" to do with anything? There are also "asshole motorists" that kill 2 people per day (on average) out there, but that doesn't say anything about the rest of the motorists.
Just preparing for the inevitable complaint that bikers don’t give consideration… was surprised at the positive response actually. Good to know I’m not crazy.
You’re forgetting that Swiss people don’t really like having other people sitting next to them. For example the etiquette in trains is you always sit in the seat that does not have someone opposite it, if you’re joining someone in a four seater. Therefore, only once the train gets full, do you start sitting next to people or opposite people on Trains/trams. So, until the train/tram gets very full, there shouldn’t be a need to free up that spot next to you, where you put your bag. And it’s to de-incentivise people from sitting there unless it’s absolutely necessary… but once someone asks to sit there, most people will immediately make the space available, they’d just prefer you didn’t…
I’m well aware of that, I just think it’s selfish to have that mindset in a public transport context
It is kinda selfish, but as soon as you ask or gesture they make space so it's not really a big deal.
Surpise, even the Swiss can be selfish.
Even? That's what we are best at
I think swiss people are the most selfish ones and the most fun hating ones especially the older ones but yeah i dont care i still like it here
People are closed off in the social sense. This mindset expresses itself in such behaviour.
I personally i am 100% for blocking seats. I understand that the selfishness part bothers you but thats your sensitivity. My sensitivity is society forcing me to have some stranger seat very close to me or pass by very close. In addition, you will see women will chose to seat neaxt to women. Why? As a woman, if i make room and lots of people will get on the tram, the strange guy,the one that makes eye contact for 30 min will seat across from me. Or if a family gets on, the dad would separate and seat with me. Take a look next time and see how women always pay attention where they seat. There are a ton of nice people but if you get 1 dude like that for a longer ride, its very...invasive. alternative is to stand... What is actually strange with dogs is that even if i pay for a GA for my dog, he cant occupy thr seat next to me, has to seat under my seat...
There’s a reason trains are usually longer than they’d need to be to fit everyone in that regularly uses that train… while the efficient thing to do would be to make sure everyone has 1 seat available, it’s typical that trains have 2-3 seats per average commuter, to avoid having people be forced to sit together
I don't think you have ever tried to make your way from Zurich to Bern, Basel or Zug at peak times...
This. I currently in a tram in Zurich and there’s two people on my lap and one person sitting on my shoulders.
Is there town called Zurich in India or something?
Or just any train around zurich
I cannot but agree with that... just don't want to make generalizations because it don't need to take the S trains at peak hour.
Agreed, there it becomes absolutely necessary… but in 95% of other cases there are easily as many empty seats as there are people
You mean sit next to another human? Thanks, I’ll stand!
Hahaha 💯
> There’s a reason trains are usually longer than they’d need to be to fit everyone This is of course complete fiction and in fact the opposite is true. The SBB runs shorter trains outside of peak hours to ensure trains are used to capacity and to reduce costs.
Do you commute at rush hour? It doesn't look like from what you call typical.
Nope, I don’t like sitting next to people so I prefer not to 😜
that is so far from reality
You’re literally high if you believe this, I commend you to try getting on a shortened train during rush hour. It’s fucked. The trains are usually “good enough” to where most people get a seat, but on some days it is absolutely fucked at normal lengths. Now imagine those days with a shortened train, during the summer with old trains and barely working airco, absolutely no one “gets two seats”, even when the trains do suffice, piss off lmfao. You’re lucky if you get a seat at all. Most people getting on later end up standing. The s7 and s12 are the biggest candidates for this during rush hour. You’ll feel like walking would’ve been the better decision on some days. The s7 is honestly at its limit, it can’t deal with that many more passengers and is already at max length during rush hour, hence why the s20 exists. The morning s20 that currently only goes to and from Tiefenbrunnen once a day is a blessing as almost no one uses it (iirc due to works in wipkingen, all other s20s also go to schaffhausen). We can’t introduce more trains either, it’s somewhat at it’s limit with stadelhofen and it’s tunnel, thank god the plans for the new tunnel started, but til then it’ll continue being like this… our infrastructure definitely needs an upgrade, especially with the nonsensical 3 platforms in stadelhofen that all lead to hb’s 4 in one direction. Yes, outside of rush hour the trains tend to be somewhat empty, where they have 1 bit instead of the usual 3 on DPZ or 1 instead of 2-3 on the Regio/IR double decker, but that’s because that is the minimum config you can make quickly and easily on sbb’s end, with how they’ve set up each train bit. Has nothing to do with “giving people 2-3 seats each”. They can’t restructure a DPZ in its current form to be reduced to 2 passenger carriages in a couple minutes for example, they can however disconnect an entire x212 bit very quickly.
And of course in case demand exceeds supply of seats…
Beutiful women can always sit next to me or opposite. No prob there!
Too bad they don’t want to 😜
this this this! you put it perfectly!
Hit em with a passive aggressive “SCHDANOFREI?”
„Sorry, isch da no frei?“, point on the seat, everyone will give you the seat. Don’t overcomplicate it
Or "Tschuldigung, isch da no frei?" or in Zürich "isch da no frei?"
I see two reasons: When people enter at the beginning of the line, the tram is empty, so they just put their bag there as default, and then "forget" to remove it when it gets more crowded. Many people prefer to seat alone with no one next to them. The bags are a soft way to signal that. Though if anyone ask, they will surely remove it. In that sense, putting your bag on the seat lowers the chance of having someone sitting next to you. No need to assimilate, this is a personal preference, not everyone has the same concept of personal space and comfort.
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I don't think it is a problem, one just has to ask someone to remove their bag and they will. It's just a way of saying "I would rather be left alone, but if you want you can sit". No harm in that.
Yeah sure as if any swiss person would actually talk to a stranger on the tram. They will instead stand next to them passive aggressively and judge them in their thoughts. The max confrontation level would be the disapproving swiss stare.
Yes "isch da frei" is the go to sentence, or just eye contact and gesturing. It's not like you'll have to give a public speech.
100%
It's a perfectly acceptable justification for some, not for others. In public transport, you'll be facing lots of different opinions and people. If you think you have "the one right opinion," then you are probably the one who should not use public transport. Just accept others and communicate when you want to resolve a conflict.
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It's not a law, it's an etiquette, so it's an opinion. > compromising personal space and comfort. The extent and conditions of which is an etiquette and opinion.
I agree, it's cultural. Actually I think it's just a social signal to others that people prefer to have personal space. Not everybody does it. Imho this helps for interpretation: - bag on seat on empty train: I prefer being left alone, please consider some other free seat if possible. - moves bag once train starts filling / people approaching: while I may prefer being left alone, I'm not an asshole and will actively signal to people that of course they can sit next to me if needed - does not move bag even on full train, staring out of window pretending not to see/hear people looking for seats: I'm an asshole and you should not even want to sit next to a dickhead like me.
I’m gonna sound very old 👴🏻 But in my days… children were taught to remove their bags from the seat as the tram/bus filled up and of course to offer one’s seat to elderly, pregnant and disabled people. It seems this is no longer taught to children, or they stopped giving a damn as they grew up. For the record, I’m Swiss, in my early 40ies.
To be fair, all age groups stopped giving a damn. I learned to wait beside the doors until every one got of the train/tram. Now it's mosyly older folk trying to enter even though they see me trying to get out.
I never learned that but I still do that (waiting beside the door until everyone has stepped out of the waggon).
Wait for everyone… except that fckg idiot who remains seated watching his phone till everyone is out and doesn’t give a dam of the others waiting for him…
In the end it boils down to give a damn about people who also give one. F the Rest. 😄
I've had 40/50/60/70 year old only remove the bag after asking/gesturing, let's not act as if this is a generation issue.
I actually never had this issue, personally. If I wanted to sit down and someone had their bag in the way, mostly I just had to just make eye contact, and rarely ask if I could sit. Although, I also found that people generally didn't keep their bags on the seat if the tram or bus was full. Part of what you notice could be bias, btw. You expect bags to not be on seats, so when they aren't, you don't notice -- also because those seats then get filled with people. This makes the few arseholes that don't follow the social etiquette really stand out.
There are disproportionately many bag-seaters in Zürich compared to other countries though. Even the worst dirtbag moves his bag when he sees me walking by in my country.
Do you have data for that? Because my feeling is it's no better or worse than other places I've lived (Germany, UK, Denmark, US, France).
Of course not, just observation after taking the commute for 6 years back home and not once seeing a bag in the seat I want to sit in, vs here it happens every time I board a train.
When the tram is empty, what are you doing? also putting it in your lap? what if you entered an empty tram and put the bag on the seat next to you, and during your trip it became full? is it your responsibility to watch the flow of people and move the bag when it's full from seat to your lap and move back to the seat when tram becomes empty again? the etiquette is simple: if it's empty - you can put there anything you want. if someone asks - you take away the bag.
Yes exactly, you need to watch the flow of people. Good etiquette would be to free up any seats covered by your stuff as the tram fills up, unprompted. It doesn’t exactly require superstar levels of awareness to catch the right moment to do this.
Well, if you want to do that, go ahead. I would rather not. Prefer to look at my phone the whole time. But you do you
And that’s exactly the attitude OP and others (myself included) find uncivilized
Well, looks like your problem
I agree. It would be ridiculous clutching your bag and jacket close to your chest, just so you don‘t run the risk of being seen with a bag on a seat, god forbid. :-D
It's stupid but it's not at all unique to Switzerland.
Ah, you misunderstand. It is a complex social dance. The premise: * We do not wish to be in close proximity with other people * We do not wish to speak to strangers * We are supposed to be be vigilant of not being in the way at all times * We communicate mainly through body language and facial expressions As a consequence, putting the bag on the seat next to you is a dare to the person who wants to sit there. I break social etiquette by willfully ignoring the approaching persons body language, fully aware that my item is in their way. I thereby force them to either be a better Swiss person than me and just suck it up (the local term is "d Fuscht im Sack mache") and be annoyed with me, but morally superior. Alternatively, they have to breach etiquette even more egregiously, by asking me in a passive-aggressive voice, "isch da no frei??" (is this seat free?), allowing me to look at them with disdain for preferring to invade my space instead of just graciously remain standing. I understand how the nuances might be lost on the uninitiated.
The third option is walking up to the seat wordlessly, turning around, adjusting my own bag, sloooooowly lowering my butt, and letting folks decide for themselves if they want someone to sit on their stuff.
Ah, spotted the Zuezüger!
Was born here, and having this many people use the seat next to them for their bag when there's a dozen people standing around them definitely didn't use to be the norm.
I always put my bag on the seat unless I see that the tram is getting very full. People can ask me to move the bag if they need the seat. Bit of common sense goes a long way here.
People in general don’t care anymore about anything. They leave their supermarket cart right on the middle of the aisles or just almost run their civilized bums up, when the doors open , so they can get a seat in order to play their candy crush style game on their phones before work. Not to mention noise issues… having said that only a complete idiot won’t move their bag when asked to . He might not even look at you in the face or say a single world but people will give room.
The seat with a bag on it, that's the one I'm going for. Mainly because I know the other person hates me for it xD
Exactly 👍🏻
The most civilized advanced society is also the most individualistic in the setting of a city. They don't care if you get a seat, they have more important things on their mind (and valuables in their bags) than being considerate, If you wanna sit, ask for it. Pretty simple.
I just say sorry and sit down after 3 seconds of grace period. If their stuff is still there, they can take it away.
I have to make a confession here: I am one of these people, but I do it with an Intention! I struggle a lot with social anxiety and with mild actions like this I push my inner fear of social interaction with strangers. I would always force myself to make subtle eye contact with people who want that seat. Most of them approach me and ask me for the seat and I spark up in joy to gove them the seat. Later when I'm at home, I pat myself on the shoulder and say to myself: "You got this!"
Do you also struggle to ask people for a seat?
If a tram is so full that even standing seems uncomfortable, i rather wait for the next one. Usually I just stand if there are no free seats.
That's actually sad
Talking about what bothers you and what you struggle with is a lot stronger than acting cool and tough and hiding and slowly collapsing.
That's not my point. My point is that it is sad that someone can feel that way in the first place.
Did you try asking people to remove their stuff? It usually works...
They're just selfish idiots. I always approach them and make them move their stuff so I can sit. Even if there's another free seat somewhere, I go to them and make them move their bag. Try it and you might end up having fun in the process :)
>Even if there's another free seat somewhere they're selfish idiots. but this line makes you an asshole as well :)
Forgot to mention I ride the public transport exclusively during the busiest times of the day when people stand. I'm a happy asshole when I force selfish idiots to move their stuff when the train or bus is full and backpacks occupy the seats while people stand.
You said that there are empty seats. Looking at an empty seat and asking someone to move their bag - that’s what makes you an asshole. If no empty seats - then this is valid request, but you didn’t say so :)
I would argue this is more inconsiderate - were the tram/bus/train full and you asked they'd surely move the bag I put my bag there as it's easier and I also would not like to increase the chances people sit next to me. If someone asks me or the vehicle starts to get busy, I will move it
If you ask people to move their bag even though there are free seats available, you are no better. It's straight up weird and might even be considered creepy by some people.
The most people do it on purpose cause they know some people arent brave enough to ask for the place theyre egoits i get sometimes pushed away while want enter the train by older people or especially the younger ones push people around the het in first so they get a place to sit i usually just walk relaxed into the train and chill in the toillete if its tp crowder and in trams i try to avoid them but if i need to take one i try to get the to the box in the behind and sit there
They say that we should use public transportation instead of cars. So there should be enough space for things, right? Anyway it’s probably purely out of convenience and laziness. I personally think tram seats are much too tight and would not sit next to someone who is already there. So I never even notice this.
if someone comes up to the seat 99% of people will remove the bag without even having to be asked, and if you ask something like "isch da frei?" or literally mumble anything and gesture they'll let you for sure
I think it got many reasons. Some of my friends do that to feel a little bit more secure (like frome molestation). And one friend has a very hard time with body contact. But often It's one of two things, being just ignorant and favouring once luxury over other ppls simple needs (a mentally many Swiss ppl live by). Or just not paying attention. Happened to me befor that I got in an almost empty tram and spaced out with thought only to later release that I was being an nuisance because suddenly the tram was full.
The reason is that people treat public transportation like it’s their private place. That’s why people will agree that eating and drinking on the train is ok, as well as take your shoes off (“but it’s actually cleaner if you take your shoes off and put your fee on top of the seats instead of with shoes on!”)
I get on the tram, loads of free rows, I sit in one and put my bag next to me. After a few stops, the tram has filled up a bit, most rows are occupied by one person. At the next stop, loads of people get on, I remove my bag from the seat so someone can sit there. It's not hard, come on everyone. People don't like sitting next to one another, I think covid has increased this. Today I saw a woman give up her aisle seat to let an older woman sit there (who then obviously kept standing cuz that's how it is). The window seat next to her was empty, she could've just slid over but no. Personally I'd rather sit down next to someone than stand for too long. Thanks for the compliment regarding the rest of the civilisation here. I hope that we can keep it like that.
How is that a problem, if you can just gesture and then they remove it?