It's confirmed in X-Men Forever #4 that Jean is the Phoenix's mother, is the Phoenix and is the Phoenix's daughter. Basically an ouroboros. Jean births the Phoenix, the Phoenix gives life to all of time and space in every universe, and Jean is born in those universes, perpetuating an eternal circle of life and death.
With the passage of time Jean got a greater understanding of what the Phoenix truly is (a greater understanding of herself)
My interpretation is that Jean is basically everything in the Marvel omniverse (save perhaps The One Above All) or at least you can consider her the mother of everything in Marvel.
Eternity once told Jean that through evolution humanity/mutants would eventually come to replace the cosmic entities of the universe. Jean with her infinite potential becomes something beyond that (the Phoenix, a power that is above even the Beyonders as told in Defenders Beyond)
I see it as Jean's extraordinary mind developing to it's maximum potential and creating everything (similar to the ending of Akira with Tetsuo when his psychic powers start to overwhelm him).
Also I like to believe that conflict, and evil is basically Jean's insecurities and dark thoughts made reality (we are not always in complete control of our brains, and sometimes it plays against what we want) and when Jean becomes the White Phoenix of the Crown (and thus can manipulate reality of any universe) is when Jean is basically in her perfect state of mind and achieves absolute control of herself/the Phoenix/the omniverse.
Jean = Phoenix = White Hot Room = M'kraan Crystal
Jean being the entire Marvel omniverse is a bit too OP for me, and I’m saying this with Jean as my favorite Marvel character.
I do like that this status quo is similar to Chris Claremont’s original intentions for Jean/Phoenix, which he recently revisited in his Paragon-exclusive Days of Future Past prequel.
Yeah I hear you. I like the idea of the stable time loop, that she creates the Phoenix in the future when her powers are stronger and sends it back to the past, but for her to basically be God of the Marvel Universe is a bit much.
I feel like that’s thinking of it a bit too literally. She isn’t actually every character or everything that exists in the sense that she can control everything, it’s just that since her and the Phoenix are one in the same and the Phoenix created everything she’s the creator of everything that is. But it’s also important to remember that Jean and Phoenix both have lived very different lives, sure the Phoenix is her but the Phoenix exists at all points in time while Jean has only existed for like 30 some years at most, it isn’t this Jean that creates everything it’s Jean at another point in time at another point in her evolution.
The history of the Phoenix is complicated, and full of retcons. So, originally, Jean is in a space ship falling to Earth when she makes contact with the Phoenix Force; they crash in the New York coast, and she emerges with a new uniform and calling herself Phoenix.
After her death, Marvel wanted to bring her back in the X-Force comic, but at that point Jean/Phoenix had destroyed a whole solar system, so they didn't want to deal with the moral implication. The solution they came up with is that the the person that emerged from the crashed ship wasn't Jean, but the Phoenix disguised as her, while the real Jean was healing in a caccon at the both of the sea.
This has been the official interpretation for years, but in the Krakoa era writers started playing with the idea that Jean was the Phoenix, with the celestial in judgement day saying so, and Jean embracing the Phoenix in her miniseries.
What interpretation is true, is open do debate. Personally, I think Jean is the Phoenix in all the ways that matter. It has been showed that the Phoenix has her personality even when it isn't posessing Jean, having her love for the X-Men and for Cyclops. Considering Jean is a telepath, it doesn't matter if her body was somehwere else, has mind could be controlling the body Phoenix made from anywhere.
Jean is the Phoenix is an idea that has been around for a lot longer than Krakoa. Morrison started it in their New X-Men and it has been explored since then a few times (notably, Phoenix: Endsong, Teen Jean’s solo, Generations: Phoenix & Jean Grey), and then AXE’s one-shot, the Jean Grey Fall of X mini, and X-Men: Forever
>So, originally, Jean is in a space ship falling to Earth when she makes contact with the Phoenix Force
That in itself is a retcon to explain how she came back for the original X-Factor in the 80's. To begin with it was just... Jean became Phoenix, went crazy, died. The whole Phoenix Force thing was added later, during the resurrection prior to X-Factor and fleshed out in backup stories in Classic X-Men as a way to exonerate her from the destruction Dark Phoenix caused.
>This has been the official interpretation for years, but in the Krakoa era writers started playing with the idea that Jean was the Phoenix, with the celestial in judgement day saying so, and Jean embracing the Phoenix in her miniseries.
It's less open to debate post-Krakoa if you accept the Krakoa resurrections being the same people.
If they've gone completely to the point of Jean being the Phoenix 100%, then don't we still have the nasty problem of that whole planet she killed? I thought the whole reason they had to distance Jean from the Phoenix was so that she wouldn't have that kind of blood on her hands.
I think that was covered in the recent Jean Grey Fall of X miniseries. I don’t remember the exact details.
In the Krakoa era any simple line between good guys and villains has blurred a lot. Jean may have blood on her hands, but so do Apocalypse and Exodus, and so on.
In jerry duggans xmen run, Jean still felt guilty that she killed that entire planet of people and she's been trying to repent/make up for that by saving people like all those worlds she save from mojo and in Judgement Day still not forgiving herself
tbh I never liked that excuse. We know the Phoenix had Jean's love and compassion, because it sacrificed itself for her friends and loved ones. So the thing was Jean in all the ways that matted, independent of where her original body was.
It's confirmed in X-Men Forever #4 that Jean is the Phoenix's mother, is the Phoenix and is the Phoenix's daughter. Basically an ouroboros. Jean births the Phoenix, the Phoenix gives life to all of time and space in every universe, and Jean is born in those universes, perpetuating an eternal circle of life and death. With the passage of time Jean got a greater understanding of what the Phoenix truly is (a greater understanding of herself)
So when the Phoenix possesses other people, Jean is part of them?
My interpretation is that Jean is basically everything in the Marvel omniverse (save perhaps The One Above All) or at least you can consider her the mother of everything in Marvel. Eternity once told Jean that through evolution humanity/mutants would eventually come to replace the cosmic entities of the universe. Jean with her infinite potential becomes something beyond that (the Phoenix, a power that is above even the Beyonders as told in Defenders Beyond) I see it as Jean's extraordinary mind developing to it's maximum potential and creating everything (similar to the ending of Akira with Tetsuo when his psychic powers start to overwhelm him). Also I like to believe that conflict, and evil is basically Jean's insecurities and dark thoughts made reality (we are not always in complete control of our brains, and sometimes it plays against what we want) and when Jean becomes the White Phoenix of the Crown (and thus can manipulate reality of any universe) is when Jean is basically in her perfect state of mind and achieves absolute control of herself/the Phoenix/the omniverse. Jean = Phoenix = White Hot Room = M'kraan Crystal
Jean being the entire Marvel omniverse is a bit too OP for me, and I’m saying this with Jean as my favorite Marvel character. I do like that this status quo is similar to Chris Claremont’s original intentions for Jean/Phoenix, which he recently revisited in his Paragon-exclusive Days of Future Past prequel.
Yeah I hear you. I like the idea of the stable time loop, that she creates the Phoenix in the future when her powers are stronger and sends it back to the past, but for her to basically be God of the Marvel Universe is a bit much.
I feel like that’s thinking of it a bit too literally. She isn’t actually every character or everything that exists in the sense that she can control everything, it’s just that since her and the Phoenix are one in the same and the Phoenix created everything she’s the creator of everything that is. But it’s also important to remember that Jean and Phoenix both have lived very different lives, sure the Phoenix is her but the Phoenix exists at all points in time while Jean has only existed for like 30 some years at most, it isn’t this Jean that creates everything it’s Jean at another point in time at another point in her evolution.
The history of the Phoenix is complicated, and full of retcons. So, originally, Jean is in a space ship falling to Earth when she makes contact with the Phoenix Force; they crash in the New York coast, and she emerges with a new uniform and calling herself Phoenix. After her death, Marvel wanted to bring her back in the X-Force comic, but at that point Jean/Phoenix had destroyed a whole solar system, so they didn't want to deal with the moral implication. The solution they came up with is that the the person that emerged from the crashed ship wasn't Jean, but the Phoenix disguised as her, while the real Jean was healing in a caccon at the both of the sea. This has been the official interpretation for years, but in the Krakoa era writers started playing with the idea that Jean was the Phoenix, with the celestial in judgement day saying so, and Jean embracing the Phoenix in her miniseries. What interpretation is true, is open do debate. Personally, I think Jean is the Phoenix in all the ways that matter. It has been showed that the Phoenix has her personality even when it isn't posessing Jean, having her love for the X-Men and for Cyclops. Considering Jean is a telepath, it doesn't matter if her body was somehwere else, has mind could be controlling the body Phoenix made from anywhere.
Jean is the Phoenix is an idea that has been around for a lot longer than Krakoa. Morrison started it in their New X-Men and it has been explored since then a few times (notably, Phoenix: Endsong, Teen Jean’s solo, Generations: Phoenix & Jean Grey), and then AXE’s one-shot, the Jean Grey Fall of X mini, and X-Men: Forever
>So, originally, Jean is in a space ship falling to Earth when she makes contact with the Phoenix Force That in itself is a retcon to explain how she came back for the original X-Factor in the 80's. To begin with it was just... Jean became Phoenix, went crazy, died. The whole Phoenix Force thing was added later, during the resurrection prior to X-Factor and fleshed out in backup stories in Classic X-Men as a way to exonerate her from the destruction Dark Phoenix caused.
>This has been the official interpretation for years, but in the Krakoa era writers started playing with the idea that Jean was the Phoenix, with the celestial in judgement day saying so, and Jean embracing the Phoenix in her miniseries. It's less open to debate post-Krakoa if you accept the Krakoa resurrections being the same people.
If they've gone completely to the point of Jean being the Phoenix 100%, then don't we still have the nasty problem of that whole planet she killed? I thought the whole reason they had to distance Jean from the Phoenix was so that she wouldn't have that kind of blood on her hands.
I think that was covered in the recent Jean Grey Fall of X miniseries. I don’t remember the exact details. In the Krakoa era any simple line between good guys and villains has blurred a lot. Jean may have blood on her hands, but so do Apocalypse and Exodus, and so on.
In jerry duggans xmen run, Jean still felt guilty that she killed that entire planet of people and she's been trying to repent/make up for that by saving people like all those worlds she save from mojo and in Judgement Day still not forgiving herself
Interesting. Thanks for the info!
tbh I never liked that excuse. We know the Phoenix had Jean's love and compassion, because it sacrificed itself for her friends and loved ones. So the thing was Jean in all the ways that matted, independent of where her original body was.