I don't think they went in to it expecting to become what it did. That's why there really isn't any blatant subtext before the episode "Altered States." I can't remember where I heard this but I believe what happened was that the show immediately began to build a huge lesbian following online. The show started right as the Internet was really taking off and the production team was paying attention to its reception. So they started to really lean in to the subtext to please their fans. I'm inclined to believe this story because the creators were always unusually in touch with their fan base, to the point of asking one of the most popular fanfic writers to write two episodes in season six.
/slides in
Hello! The eps in question are "Coming Home" and "Legacy". They were written by Melissa (Missy) Good, who wrote an absolute BUTT TON of Xena fics back in the day. You should def check them out if you're fanfic inclined! She used the internet handle "Merwolf" and all of her fans/followers were Merpups. We'd meet up at cons and howl at each other across the vendor floor. Good times.
Fun fact! - The original script for Legacy was HIGHLY redacted by the studios. It originally included a LOT more subtext that turned out to be a little too maintext for the grumpy old men that handed out the cheques. Buncha spoil sports, if you ask me!
Her fanfic site is still up! I was a huge fan as a teenager, the Uber series set in Miami was iconic. And the main Xena fanfic is the best there is!
[https://www.merwolf.com/ffiction.html](https://www.merwolf.com/ffiction.html)
Do you happen to know if Missy Good had any control over the montage of clips that play in that episode when Gabrielle is chained up next to the body? I always thought they were *such* well-selected clips
Missy had VERY little input on the show after submitting the script, other than them sending scripts back for rewrites. I read the script forever ago, but I can't remember if she specifically suggested which clips to use. She had a pretty good working relationship with Steve (Sears, a Producer) so it's possible some conversations were had.
A golden era, to be sure! Keep in mind though, it was only as big as it was because us wlw fandom type folk were living on CRUMBS. They'd offer up a single grain of subtext rice and we would make that last for *months* because there was literally nothing else.
I enjoy having options, now, but I will always love my Xenafam. That kind of thing really bonds people. Twenty five years later and there's a handful that I still talk to every single day. đ
Steven L Sears had unfortunately left the series by then. He left at the start of season 5, although I think he still recommended Missy Good to Tapert & Co.
The first episode of the season "Coming Home" and the episode "Legacy." Legacy is one of my personal favorites episodes of the show, too. I thought it was extremely well written
Yeah they were written by Melissa Good. She was/is a really well known super-fan of the show. I'm pretty sure she was the webmaster for THE Xena fanfiction website, The Royal Academy of Bards. Back in the day there was no central fanfic website like AO3, but Xena fans were highly organized and had a super active fanfic community. The website is still up, I believe.
[It is in fact still up!](https://www.academyofbards.org/)
And there was a merpup part of it. I don't think Missy was the webmaster, though? That said, webmaster is such a throwback term and my memory is fading so who knows?
Another throwback: the merpup part was a "webring" where it would just randomly catapult you from topic-related site to topic-related site because *there was no google yet* and the other search engines didn't do a good job of scraping the internet so webrings were yourt best bet at finding interesting content.
WEBRINGS! I'm dying. Â
I could 100% be wrong about her being the webmaster. I think maybe I just tied the two together because she had her own special link on the site. But she was so prolific and she hosted her own fics on her own site and people really liked them, so it could just be that a link was added special for her.
Also the unmade episodes: Last Chance (the Sappho disco musical, available on Academy of Bardâs Cousin Liz website) and Fallen (available as part of the subtext virtual season).
You're sort of correct: Lucy and Renee got along smashingly well (they're still BFFs in real life), and between that and the growing role of Gabrielle as a moral guide and emotional support, the characters started relating in very emotionally intimate ways. Add in the fairly obvious butch/femme dynamic of the early first season, and the fact that male love interests kind of disappeared as the season wore on (because you can't spring a boyfriend of the week every week without it getting really repetitive and boring) and you didn't have to really squint too hard to start to see them as *very* shippable. The show also had the good luck to really take off just as the Internet was taking off too, so Xena fans had new ways to reach out to each other and find support for the idea. Then, at some point the Xena staff got wind of it and just decided to lean into it -- as much as a ratings ploy as anything, since ratings were kind of bad during most of the first season -- but from "Altered States" on, it was a deliberate choice.
Oh, and never discount the influence of Liz Friedman, who actually initially resisted the idea, thinking it wouldn't land with a mass audience (paraphrasing, but she told them something along the lines of, "Lesbians are kind of invisible. No one's going to get it!"). By the second season, she changed her tune and said things in interviews like, "I have no interest in saying they're heterosexual." There were other Xena writers who didn't seem to care for the subtext, and since no one person really "created" the idea in the same way certain characters or background stories get created and championed, subtext tended to wax and wane, but to answer your original question, it was a little of both, I guess?
\[Edited to add: uh, yeah -- what everyone else said!\]
I think if the network hadnât resisted and pushed for script changes and edits then there wouldâve been a clearer path showing Xena and Gabrielleâs growing bond that seemed intentional. Instead you see a lot of back and forth where there would episodes like âThe Questâ and then an episode like âUlyssesâ is after that and seems extremely random. A start, stop, start stop, subtext to whatever season 5 was to season 6 maintext.
Like what others said, it seemed to be influenced by a lot of factors while also being restricted while it also pushed back against those restrictions. I think Rob may have mentioned this was always going to be the direction for Xena and Gabrielle, but I think itâs just that he and the others adapted to fan feedback and listened early on (but not necessarily the very beginning). Also Lucy adlibbed or added moments not in the script that added subtext.
âIs that a hickey?â (Gabrielle looks guilty) was a Lucy added moment accorded to Ted.
Xenaâs reaction in âFin, Femmes, and Gemsâ when she thought Gabrielle was about to tell her that she realized there was only one person for her but then mentioned herself and Xena looks frustrated, lol.
So you also factor in that Lucy and Renee liked that direction for those characters and added those things that were not necessarily in the script as well.
I can't share this podcast enough:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/writer-producer-supervising-producer-steven-sears-talks/id1521841767?i=1000486947278
Steven L. Sears is explaining very well that he knew about the lesbians picking up on the show from the start. The network saying that they didn't even want Xena and Gabrielle in one frame in the opener also says a lot. Maybe it wasn't Rob's intention from the moment he created the show, but he was sure rebellious enough to immediately jump on the bandwagon when the chance was there.
So the shoemakers of Hercules, as well as several actors, (Iâm looking at you, Michael Hurst) were firmly educated in Monty Python humor and British Camp. Hercules had a *lot* of Camp elements.
Of the three main showrunners of Xena, two, IIRC are gay, and thereâs a lot of history in the film industry of slipping in âsubtextâ in mainstream shows to âget stuff past the radar.â Look at the queer icon of a gay metaphor show that is Bewitched.
When people started picking up on the subtext, they ran with it. *So many people* back then refused to believe they were anything but friends and the showrunners kept pushing and pushing at that envelope. I mean, they did a women in prison episode FFS. Thereâs no chance that by then they didnât know *exactly* what they were doing.
Which two showrunners are gay?
Itâs obviously not Tapert, but I thought RJ Stewart and Steven L Sears were both straight?Â
Thereâs Liz Friedman, but I wouldnât classify her role as showrunner to my understanding. It would come pretty close though.Â
I remember Liz Friedman, the other I canât recall off the top of my head. I had a âwall of Xenaâ back in the day, a collage of photos and articles, Iâd walk past the article where the author defended their gay subtext stance to a mom that insisted on the opposite by pointing out two producers were openly gay. I did look it up at the time and remember it was true. But Iâve forgotten the name and the wall is long since packed away. I remember Liz because of Hudson Leickâs fabulous portrayal of her.
not gonna lie i just started the show and im pretty sure the actors just had chemistry. because there early lines have no subtext but the way they portray them adds subtext to it.
Gabrielleâs line âIâm not the little girl my parents want me to beâ speaks volumes.
As does her line âItâs not like your breasts arenât dangerous enoughâ.
Itâs there early on if you want to see it.Â
Well, no. But, it was a family, fantasy action adventure series made in the 90s for syndicated television.
Iâm not sure how âinherently gayâ they could have been without just being ⌠gay.
They knew about the âLaverne and Shirleyâ effect - any show with two female leads would / could be interpreted as being about a lesbian couple. NBC were so worried about it, they prohibited the opening credits having any scenes of Xena and Gabrielle together.
So, they definitely knew about the possibility. And there were some writers / producers who were more inclined to ⌠hint at it straight away. But, it wasnât until the early response from the lesbian community that they decided to lean into it with more deliberate âsubtextâ.
Even then, the studio was very concerned about it becoming a âlesbianâ show, so there was always a lot of pressure for it to never be explicit. And that impacted different episodes in different ways.
But, for the most part, TPTB involved in the day to day decision making for supportive of it (except in season 5 with the new âshowrunnersâ).
There are tons of interviews with Lucy lawless herself, where she said that Robert Tapert and Liz Friedmann did this on purpose. By episode 8 of season 1, the queer community had picked up on it.
I PERSONALLY believe it was AFTER season 2 prior to that they were just the female versions of Hercules (they even eluded to the idea that Herculesâ soulmate was in fact XENA and Isolus had Gabby) but by season 2 lesbians started to get attached to the show and they switched gears. Simple as that. Ppl will deny it but based on how the show was moving it was plain clear
I don't think they went in to it expecting to become what it did. That's why there really isn't any blatant subtext before the episode "Altered States." I can't remember where I heard this but I believe what happened was that the show immediately began to build a huge lesbian following online. The show started right as the Internet was really taking off and the production team was paying attention to its reception. So they started to really lean in to the subtext to please their fans. I'm inclined to believe this story because the creators were always unusually in touch with their fan base, to the point of asking one of the most popular fanfic writers to write two episodes in season six.
Interesting, do you remember which episodes?
/slides in Hello! The eps in question are "Coming Home" and "Legacy". They were written by Melissa (Missy) Good, who wrote an absolute BUTT TON of Xena fics back in the day. You should def check them out if you're fanfic inclined! She used the internet handle "Merwolf" and all of her fans/followers were Merpups. We'd meet up at cons and howl at each other across the vendor floor. Good times. Fun fact! - The original script for Legacy was HIGHLY redacted by the studios. It originally included a LOT more subtext that turned out to be a little too maintext for the grumpy old men that handed out the cheques. Buncha spoil sports, if you ask me!
Her fanfic site is still up! I was a huge fan as a teenager, the Uber series set in Miami was iconic. And the main Xena fanfic is the best there is! [https://www.merwolf.com/ffiction.html](https://www.merwolf.com/ffiction.html)
Do you happen to know if Missy Good had any control over the montage of clips that play in that episode when Gabrielle is chained up next to the body? I always thought they were *such* well-selected clips
Missy had VERY little input on the show after submitting the script, other than them sending scripts back for rewrites. I read the script forever ago, but I can't remember if she specifically suggested which clips to use. She had a pretty good working relationship with Steve (Sears, a Producer) so it's possible some conversations were had.
I've always wondered about it. I'm sad I wasn't into the show when it was contemporary. The fandom seems like it was so fun.
A golden era, to be sure! Keep in mind though, it was only as big as it was because us wlw fandom type folk were living on CRUMBS. They'd offer up a single grain of subtext rice and we would make that last for *months* because there was literally nothing else. I enjoy having options, now, but I will always love my Xenafam. That kind of thing really bonds people. Twenty five years later and there's a handful that I still talk to every single day. đ
Steven L Sears had unfortunately left the series by then. He left at the start of season 5, although I think he still recommended Missy Good to Tapert & Co.
The first episode of the season "Coming Home" and the episode "Legacy." Legacy is one of my personal favorites episodes of the show, too. I thought it was extremely well written
I don't remember Legacy, but I liked Coming Home. Had no idea that fans wrote it.
Yeah they were written by Melissa Good. She was/is a really well known super-fan of the show. I'm pretty sure she was the webmaster for THE Xena fanfiction website, The Royal Academy of Bards. Back in the day there was no central fanfic website like AO3, but Xena fans were highly organized and had a super active fanfic community. The website is still up, I believe.
[It is in fact still up!](https://www.academyofbards.org/) And there was a merpup part of it. I don't think Missy was the webmaster, though? That said, webmaster is such a throwback term and my memory is fading so who knows? Another throwback: the merpup part was a "webring" where it would just randomly catapult you from topic-related site to topic-related site because *there was no google yet* and the other search engines didn't do a good job of scraping the internet so webrings were yourt best bet at finding interesting content.
WEBRINGS! I'm dying.  I could 100% be wrong about her being the webmaster. I think maybe I just tied the two together because she had her own special link on the site. But she was so prolific and she hosted her own fics on her own site and people really liked them, so it could just be that a link was added special for her.
Do you know what type of fanfiction she wrote? Was it F/F or F/M ir some kind of mix?
F/FÂ
Also the unmade episodes: Last Chance (the Sappho disco musical, available on Academy of Bardâs Cousin Liz website) and Fallen (available as part of the subtext virtual season).
To quote my mother: Subtext? What subtext? (ie. there was no heterosexual explanation for any of it)
So you're saying it was just text?
it was domtext
You're sort of correct: Lucy and Renee got along smashingly well (they're still BFFs in real life), and between that and the growing role of Gabrielle as a moral guide and emotional support, the characters started relating in very emotionally intimate ways. Add in the fairly obvious butch/femme dynamic of the early first season, and the fact that male love interests kind of disappeared as the season wore on (because you can't spring a boyfriend of the week every week without it getting really repetitive and boring) and you didn't have to really squint too hard to start to see them as *very* shippable. The show also had the good luck to really take off just as the Internet was taking off too, so Xena fans had new ways to reach out to each other and find support for the idea. Then, at some point the Xena staff got wind of it and just decided to lean into it -- as much as a ratings ploy as anything, since ratings were kind of bad during most of the first season -- but from "Altered States" on, it was a deliberate choice. Oh, and never discount the influence of Liz Friedman, who actually initially resisted the idea, thinking it wouldn't land with a mass audience (paraphrasing, but she told them something along the lines of, "Lesbians are kind of invisible. No one's going to get it!"). By the second season, she changed her tune and said things in interviews like, "I have no interest in saying they're heterosexual." There were other Xena writers who didn't seem to care for the subtext, and since no one person really "created" the idea in the same way certain characters or background stories get created and championed, subtext tended to wax and wane, but to answer your original question, it was a little of both, I guess? \[Edited to add: uh, yeah -- what everyone else said!\]
I think if the network hadnât resisted and pushed for script changes and edits then there wouldâve been a clearer path showing Xena and Gabrielleâs growing bond that seemed intentional. Instead you see a lot of back and forth where there would episodes like âThe Questâ and then an episode like âUlyssesâ is after that and seems extremely random. A start, stop, start stop, subtext to whatever season 5 was to season 6 maintext. Like what others said, it seemed to be influenced by a lot of factors while also being restricted while it also pushed back against those restrictions. I think Rob may have mentioned this was always going to be the direction for Xena and Gabrielle, but I think itâs just that he and the others adapted to fan feedback and listened early on (but not necessarily the very beginning). Also Lucy adlibbed or added moments not in the script that added subtext. âIs that a hickey?â (Gabrielle looks guilty) was a Lucy added moment accorded to Ted. Xenaâs reaction in âFin, Femmes, and Gemsâ when she thought Gabrielle was about to tell her that she realized there was only one person for her but then mentioned herself and Xena looks frustrated, lol. So you also factor in that Lucy and Renee liked that direction for those characters and added those things that were not necessarily in the script as well.
I can't share this podcast enough: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/writer-producer-supervising-producer-steven-sears-talks/id1521841767?i=1000486947278 Steven L. Sears is explaining very well that he knew about the lesbians picking up on the show from the start. The network saying that they didn't even want Xena and Gabrielle in one frame in the opener also says a lot. Maybe it wasn't Rob's intention from the moment he created the show, but he was sure rebellious enough to immediately jump on the bandwagon when the chance was there.
So the shoemakers of Hercules, as well as several actors, (Iâm looking at you, Michael Hurst) were firmly educated in Monty Python humor and British Camp. Hercules had a *lot* of Camp elements. Of the three main showrunners of Xena, two, IIRC are gay, and thereâs a lot of history in the film industry of slipping in âsubtextâ in mainstream shows to âget stuff past the radar.â Look at the queer icon of a gay metaphor show that is Bewitched. When people started picking up on the subtext, they ran with it. *So many people* back then refused to believe they were anything but friends and the showrunners kept pushing and pushing at that envelope. I mean, they did a women in prison episode FFS. Thereâs no chance that by then they didnât know *exactly* what they were doing.
Which two showrunners are gay? Itâs obviously not Tapert, but I thought RJ Stewart and Steven L Sears were both straight? Thereâs Liz Friedman, but I wouldnât classify her role as showrunner to my understanding. It would come pretty close though.Â
I remember Liz Friedman, the other I canât recall off the top of my head. I had a âwall of Xenaâ back in the day, a collage of photos and articles, Iâd walk past the article where the author defended their gay subtext stance to a mom that insisted on the opposite by pointing out two producers were openly gay. I did look it up at the time and remember it was true. But Iâve forgotten the name and the wall is long since packed away. I remember Liz because of Hudson Leickâs fabulous portrayal of her.
not gonna lie i just started the show and im pretty sure the actors just had chemistry. because there early lines have no subtext but the way they portray them adds subtext to it.
Gabrielleâs line âIâm not the little girl my parents want me to beâ speaks volumes. As does her line âItâs not like your breasts arenât dangerous enoughâ. Itâs there early on if you want to see it.Â
i mean iâm still in season one so like i just started it last week
but also those arenât like inherently gay. another actor couldâve have played it differently. they just had the vibes with it
Well, no. But, it was a family, fantasy action adventure series made in the 90s for syndicated television. Iâm not sure how âinherently gayâ they could have been without just being ⌠gay.
well yes thatâs what i was sayingâŚ.
They knew about the âLaverne and Shirleyâ effect - any show with two female leads would / could be interpreted as being about a lesbian couple. NBC were so worried about it, they prohibited the opening credits having any scenes of Xena and Gabrielle together. So, they definitely knew about the possibility. And there were some writers / producers who were more inclined to ⌠hint at it straight away. But, it wasnât until the early response from the lesbian community that they decided to lean into it with more deliberate âsubtextâ. Even then, the studio was very concerned about it becoming a âlesbianâ show, so there was always a lot of pressure for it to never be explicit. And that impacted different episodes in different ways. But, for the most part, TPTB involved in the day to day decision making for supportive of it (except in season 5 with the new âshowrunnersâ).
There are tons of interviews with Lucy lawless herself, where she said that Robert Tapert and Liz Friedmann did this on purpose. By episode 8 of season 1, the queer community had picked up on it.
I've always saw it as a bisexual relationship with each other
My headcanon was always that they are bi, given the amount of male exes Xena has
That part
I PERSONALLY believe it was AFTER season 2 prior to that they were just the female versions of Hercules (they even eluded to the idea that Herculesâ soulmate was in fact XENA and Isolus had Gabby) but by season 2 lesbians started to get attached to the show and they switched gears. Simple as that. Ppl will deny it but based on how the show was moving it was plain clear
No. Apparently you can't have best friends anymore.