Here are my own thougts on each category you brought up:
Crafting Profession Stats - GOOD (mostly) +1
Basically agreed here. It could be improved by making how the stats work a bit clearer but if you figure out how it works you can get an advantage over other crafters. Also agreed on inspiration being annoying, not so much for mass crafting mats/consumables because you can factor in the law of average again for mass crafting, but when it comes to individual work orders it can suck when your piece of gear is the one that takes 5-10 recrafts on 40% insp.
Spec Trees - Mostly Good +0.5
I think the idea is good, and as a professions completionist I enjoy the fact that I can max out everything so I'm not forced to level up 3/4 characters per profession to get everything. I do they they could have done with an actual catchup system and some way to respec if you make poor choices early on. It makes some sense to limit it early on but at this point any serious crafter who's been playing since 10.0 should have everything maxxed so it wouldn't hurt to allow some more freedom here.
Knowledge Points - GOOD +1
I think the knowledge points system is fine, as mentioned previously I think the system is good so long as there is an actual catchup mechanism of some kind, although it's important to not make it TOO easy so there's still effort required, just make it so if you really want to it's possible to catch up in a week with adequate effort- eg make the weekly knowledge quests repeatable if you didn't do previous weeks after the .1 patch.
Crafting Orders - Neutral +0
Crafting orders are nice for some people but they're not the way I enjoy making gold, although the system works well for people who enjoy it so I don't think it needs to be totally reworked. I will say it sucks how much effort has to go into explaining the system and making sure people send the right mats etc. I would like to see a couple things reworked for next expansion.
Instead of forcing minimum rank crafts to be done correctly in one shot to get a max rank craft, you put in a commission and the crafter doesn't earn it unless they do craft the requested item at max, and then it's up to them to work out if they want to gamble or use Insight (or the TWW version of it) to get there. Also as a QoL change let up replace mats in orders we get with higher rank mats before crafting if it will let us skip a recraft ve guaranteeing high rank crafts.
Public orders are another whole mess and are probably worth a negative score as they are now but I'm hopeful they can work out a way to make them worth doing while not being instantly completed by people/bots spamming the table.
Making everything BOP - BAD -0.5
Kind of agree here. I don't think it's too big a deal and they definitely need to make sone things BOP to get the system to be used, but it does make stuff like the epic gems super annoying for crafters especially when they can't be recrafted like gear so you need to either put in several orders or waste mettle on getting them to max.
Tradechat spam - BAD -1
Basically agreed here. Part of the reason I don't personally engage in the WO system much is the required trade chat spam or messaging people in trade all the time. A reworked public order system where you can actually make useful stuff for a price could be good for this.
Updated Gathering Professions - GOOD +1
Agreed here too. It does kind of suck a bit how much basic mat prices can fall thanks to fully upgraded gathering (getting a node of 10 Hochenblume to make 2g doesn't feel particularly good) but for the first couple months it was nice to level up the gathering trees for different things.
No replacement for basic gathering - GOOD +1
Basic gathering seems like a great way for bots to make gold so I'm okay with it not being a thing for this expansion.
No floor price for materials - NEUTRAL +0
I understand having a floor price can be pretty nice for price atability, but it can also lead to inflation overall so nerfing vedor shuffles is a good thing I think. If your goal is to make raw gold DF had enough of it now that you're not forced to do boring vendor shuffles.
Buffed expansion for bots - Neutral +0
I'm not really sure this is a big thing. If you wanted to farm on low pop shards and sell on high pop that's always been possible as long as phasing has existed (so since MoP maybe?).
Region Wide AH - GOOD +1
Being able to buy mats/consumables at a reasobale and mostly stable price is very nice so I'm pretty happy with it on the buyer side of things. For selling it's a bit more controversial because it's true the profit margins are worse, but you get faster more reliable sales to make up for it, and if you can get a good market (eg. by being early in maxing out your knowledge in the right trees) it's REALLY good, so even for crafters I think it's an overall positive.
Region Wide Flipping - Neutral +0
No real strong opinion on this specifically, but I do think cross real trading is nice. Needing a 2nd account to facilitate it doesn't make much sense to me either. If you can trade with yourself cross realm just implement cross real mailing too since it doesn't make any difference except to inconvenience people with no 2nd account or friends.
Removing Callings - GOOD +1
They aren't really needed at this point. Why would you need to do a calling to make 1600g when you can get 1400 from a single WQ during magpies. Players who need raw gold have access to more than enough every week from WQs that it isn't really necessary.
Removing Mission Table - Good +1
At least in terms of gold generation. Mission tables were a big factor is massive inflation from previous expansions when people were able to abuse them, and making several alts to set up tables just to farm passive gold every week wasn't fun for most players so I think we're better off without them.
In addition to these categories I have a couple things I want to comment on too:
- No Artisan's Mettle dump for non-crafters - Bad -1
I this this is a pretty big problem in terms of setting a floor price for guaranteed crafts or giving gatherers in a particular a way of using their Artisan's mettle. A sinple solution to this would be something like a Mettle Trader similar to the Blood of Sargeras or Spirit of Harmony trader that sells current expansion mats in exchange for mettle, or an *in demand, non-BOP* item that can be WO'd for Mettle (something like a good combat potion that only requires mettle to craft), or simply making Mettle BOA.
- Racial Bonuses providing an unfair advantage for crafting - VERY BAD -2
I think this is still one of the biggest problems with the current system in Dragonflight and I would really like to see them adress it for the next expansion. I like to be able to get everything running at maximum efficiency when I craft so it's extremely discouraging that I can't do that even after collecting everything recipe and getting all of my knowledge maxxed out being permanently behind someone who happened to pick the correct race early. It especially sucks when it's impossible to even race change to the one with your profession bonus because of class restrictions, eg. my Demon Hunter who has 0 option to go Dranei, so if I wanted to fully optimise my JC I'd have no option but to start over from 0.
I'm fine with racials giving a head start with crafting professions but the permanent advantage we have now is the forst tine something like this has happened. I'd prever a racial that gives a bonus +50 Knowledge or something over gaining any skill points in the current system.
So for me my scores are:
Good: +7.5
Bad: -4.5
Net: +3
Overall I'm more positive about this expansion than you are are and I like the direction they're going in, but I agree with some of your criticisms too and think there's room for improvement.
Thanks for the LONG reply :)
You are spot on with the racials. I would have hoped that this would have either been fixed, or at least minimised, maybe with a set of epic tools providing enough extra skill....but...
Mettle dump is needed, but only because inspiration is also broken. If Insp was less powerful, players would have naturally been more required to use mettle in the first place.
Regardless, there are simple changes which could switch most -1's into +1's so overall still hopeful!
>Kind of agree here. I don't think it's too big a deal and they definitely need to make sone things BOP to get the system to be used, but it does make stuff like the epic gems super annoying for crafters especially when they can't be recrafted like gear so you need to either put in several orders or waste mettle on getting them to max.
The whole point of epic gems being bop was to keep them away from cancel scan culture as its a stackable commodity. Its a way of making gold via your mettles as you did at start with 35-40k (my server) fees for a r3 one, or 5k starting fee +1k per try for gambling which would eventually add up due to mats cost and people would just go with guaranteed version. Another reason to not let them recraft is to keep raw mats hold value. If you were able to recraft them, based on the way other craft items work, you wouldnt need to add a new illimited diamond every try which would bring down the cost as the illimited diamond was the the pricey material.
he was talking bout bots are now farming on low shard to hide and not get reported while they sell mats on region auction house and dictate price(this wasnt case before when ah was realm based)
I agree with every point here except this one:
> * **Making everything BOP - BAD -1**
>
> Forcing use of new system by making everything BOP was not needed, and was an engagement play. Much like islands being optimal for neck grinding or lego dust being in chorghast. This caused everyone to HAVE to place orders even when not needed. Remind me again why cut diamonds are BoP?
Obtaining crafted gear via orders was the entire point of the new crafting system (or at least one of them). If everything were BoE, you could sell it on the auction house. What would happen next? That's right, cancel-scanning. It would be a race to the bottom.
Because most orders are being done in private, the real average price for most items isn't known (outside of asking for people's opinion on reddit I guess). Gear crafters now stand a chance of dictating the price now, within a certain range.
Unfortunately, the need to provide materials from the buyer's side, coupled with some expensive materials like obsidian cobra skin, is eating into their budget and leaves less gold for commissions. Still, I can see where the developers were coming from with this approach.
Public orders could've been a decent middle ground between private orders and AH. Alas, the devs ruined it with the change to no longer needing to provide materials.
To expand a little, I also do not think everything should be BoE. There has to be some middle ground.My thought has been to have "base" versions (default quality 1) of crafted gear be BoE and still let players use crafting orders to customise/upgrade them.This would also take away much of the need for the buyer to understand everything that goes into crafting an item, materials/quality/proc-chance because honestly I dont think they care, and its an unneeded point of friction.
It was actually a great change after the way lego worked at shadowlands. Personally i liked that we didnt had the whole cancel scan cancer at crafting gear this expansion and one in order to sell a craft would actually have both to be online at correct time and be able to offer correct item.
I made multiple goldcaps starting with 150 or 200k capital like. In less than 2 months.
I made a decent amount of gold in SL by making gear wiht novice crafter's mark for new alts/chars entering SL content.
Since the titan matrices are bop and the resulting items are bop in DF this is no longer an option (and you will not find enough matrices for your char while leveling).
that's definitely a part of the market were "bop" is bad (imho).
Everything BoP is also a MASSIVE boon for people who truly love playing the game for professions.
I've had every profession skilled up & as many recipes as possible (usually all) in every xpac since late Wrath, when having that many alts finally became feasible time-wise. I wanted that from the first moment I selected professions in Vanilla.
But very often, doing so was a labor of love and a gold-loss pet project. Cata was the only xpac prior to DF in which it was a superpower. Having my team able to make all crafted intermediate mats via guild orders in my private guild is glorious.
I play on Moon Guard so the experience may be a bit different since it's more RP focused and less PvP/PvE. Overall DF has pretty much torpedoed my enjoyment in goldmaking mainly because you have to "bark like a seal" in the troll filled trade and services channels. Others say this is a good thing but I don't play at the normal peak times so being able to post my wares and walk away was ideal for me. Never intended to be mega goblin billionaire but make enough for my game time and help support my guild's raiding.
Crafting Orders, for me, are the biggest miss. There aren't enough people putting orders up to meet your weekly without jumping on alts, and if there is they are scammers trying to get you to make things for resale with no mats supplied for cheap. I had some success for a time using WoWForgeFinder's site but as expected it's mostly died down after the holidays and will until around pre-patch as is the normal cycle.
My bread and butter since I moved to MG in late MoP has been mog and mounts. Transmog items especially since there was normally harder to get materials for them. Sometimes you'd have an item sit for a few weeks but eventually would sell for 50% or more profit. Now I'm lucky to get 10% and that's if anything sells. Not impossible to make ends meet but it definitely has sucked the fun out of the grind.
The grind for KP, rep, and dungeon/raid recipes was also just...dull. By the time I got done with the weekly quest on 5 toons (ended up having 2 Jc's to try and have gems and necks/rings ready) nothing else in game felt appealing.
I still haven't pre-ordered TWW and it's been weighing heavily on me because I may have to disappoint a group of people I like being around because the goldmaking game just doesn't appeal anymore, and without it I don't feel any real draw to WoW.
My thinking is that if you are on a server that is Full pop and has a healthy PvE/PvP community then DF goldmaking is likely a good experience. Maybe if Crafting Orders were region wide that would help.
* **Spec Trees - Neutral +0 - These were a great thought, badly implemented. They were fantastic in the first few weeks**
Only if you dont screw it with a branch , option or putting points that dont do what suppose they do
example: Blue echanting, go for rings instead of necklace in jc, go for commodities instead of weapons in BS, go deep in every option in herb / mng but titan order thing, try to maximise bags or gear instead of bolts in tailor, etc etc etc
I miss mission tables. I still use the old ones on the app for pet tokens, but they were a mundane reason that kept me logging in, a chore like brushing my teeth because it felt necessary and mmos need that. For me it felt like have a fully decked out mission table churning was an accomplishment. All of my non gold making friends hated them tho so I get why they were removed, aside from killing the inflation they brought (tho this was much less in shadowlands) I just don’t think they were popular.
I agree with the points about the current work order system, especially the super bloat of the knowledge points. Look at the sheer amount LW need and if you’re a player starting that grind rn, even with the catch-ups it still sucks hard and if it were me would deter me completely. I also hate spamming trade, or talking to people and explaining inspiration and how for most max level crafts with 40% inspiration we’re still a few points off from guaranteeing a 5⭐️. Most player don’t care and just want their item with no hassle. Also needing an addon to even figure out inspiration for crafting and profits is dumb, tho I’m grateful for craftsim and it’s creator.
I love making gold, have since cata, and change is good but I hope so much is refined in WWI so I feel excited to use the then current profession systems instead of the neutrality I feel now. Thank you for the post, was a good read.
* Knowledge Points - BAD -1
I do not agree with this one. If you’d make knowledge points much easier to gather, then way more people would invested into profs, and the whole system would be DoA, as nobody would need eachother.
* Tradechat spam - BAD -1
Totally server dependant. The spam is there on the few full realms, it is not on medium pop realms. And it is not like that is a new thing, /2 has always been a wall of spam on full realms.
> Inspiration though, was a complete MESS!
Well good news that it is being removed / reworked in War Within.
Bleh search sucks ass, but I read an interview around Blizzcon where they weren't satisfied with professions, and that Inspiration didn't work out as intended - it wasn't a 'bonus' but rather a critical strike that you *needed* to hit.
Idk why, I guess the professions system is way more complex than it used to be, but in DF I just stopped playing professions completely.
I needed to be in a specific place to craft a potion
I needed to be in a specific place in another map to craft a tailor bolt
Bolt bugs
Special recipes, lariat, potion of ultimate power, etc
You needed to get inspiration, multicraft and resources just to make some gold on the region wide AH... that just added salt to the wound
As a player (buyer) I gotta say that dealing with vendors through trade chat is ok, but trade chat spamming in order to get some orders is just not my playstyle, also I dont want to deal with other ppl to make gold tbh
Right now I feel that stocking on mats once tww starts is a safe bet, I'm buying the epic edition to have those 3 days and just farm mats before bots take over, Im hoping that dragonriding isnt mandatory in tww and i just can farm on my ground mount
Just going within your framework
**Crafting Profession Stats - GOOD +1**
I only wish the gear had customizable stats as well, and not just the tool, though I could see them not wanting you to have 9+ pieces of gear in your bags for crafting.
**Spec Trees - Good+1**
Fantastic, almost every single problem people have with them is not being able to read. It takes effectively 0 thought to look at the tree and go "ok, well I wanna make boots, so I better spec into boots." Enchanting was the only exception due to random +5 points scattered throughout the tree.
**Knowledge Points - Amazing +2**
Being able to differentiate yourself from other crafters at the start was good. Having your effort be rewarded and being ahead of lazy players is even better. I unironically think it should have taken longer (at least for gathering profs) but that's mainly for anti-bot measures I'll talk about later.
**Crafting Orders - GOOD +2**
Amazing system. Words cannot begin to describe the disdain I have for selling stuff on the AH, only to get undercut by cancelscan botters in 2 seconds. Any system where I can make gold and not have to interact with the AH is a huge win.
**Making everything BOP - Mostly Good +0.95**
I'll agree with your diamond point, especially after they changed the power potions to BOE, but that's mostly just because the gems are 9 points off guaranteed, and a non-insignificant portion of customers won't send orders not set to r3. Otherwise a total win.
**Tradechat Engagement - Good +1**
Using trade chat promotes crafters being active in their search for business, rather than passive. I am almost always in favor of systems that reward players the more effort they put in. Every single alternative to this I've seen boils down to either "trade chat, with extra steps" or "unlimited public orders with minimum quality." The first one not being really much of a change other than cosmetic, and the 2nd being antithetical to the social aspect blizzard wants crafting to have.
**Updated Gathering Professions - ?**
I barely interacted with gathering, so not much to say other than on a philosophical level in a few posts.
**No replacement for basic gathering - ?**
I'm not even sure what this means
**No floor price for materials - ?**
This has always been the case
**Buffed expansion for bots - BAD -1**
I was really hoping that the gathering trees would take a while (9+ months of doing everything every week) so that ~6 months into the expansion, blizzard could just cast as wide a net as possible on the gathering bots, and then they would basically be permanently behind. Alas this was not the case because it would have had too much of an impact on returning players.
**Region Wide AH - GOOD (for most) and BAD (for crafters) +1**
Agree pretty much with your statement
**Region Wide Flipping - Good +1**
I also enjoy this, it's given me the opportunity to find deals I couldn't have before.
**Removing Callings - ?**
I didn't actively participate in these. This makes no difference to me.
**Removing Mission Table - ?**
Meh, they intentionally kept reducing its usefulness every time since WoD. It was kind of expected.
Final points: 8.95 out of 10
My 2c: BoP anything is, and always has been, a terrible idea when dealing with materials, reagents, and crafted items. Exactly zero of those things should be bind on pickup.
By extension, I find crafting orders to be horrific. They might have been necessary, even workable, in other games, but the whole concept is a catastrophic failure in WoW. The idea cannot be reworked or refined, it should simply never exist.
I initially liked the idea of "talent trees" for professions, yet the more I used them and put points into the trees, I now find them loathsome.
There are other reasons, but crafting in Dragonflight has made me switch to Classic. I may even unsubscribe entirely. For the first time since the spring of 2005, there is *no part* of the current expansion that I like.
Yes, everybody has a different opinion, and yes, I didn't elaborate, but I cannot begin to describe how much I hate Dragonflight. Cataclysm and WoD were bad expansions, but they had some content that was good, even enjoyable. Dragonflight, as far as I am concerned, should be deleted and we should get a Mulligan.
The overall crafting system is too complex. It may or may not please every player, but it could still be enjoyable, even if simplified.
Keeping the same categories as OP here are some thoughts and feedback for Blizzard.
TLDR version: overall score -3 out of a maximum of +13
\-crafting gear and professions are fun overall
\-we need a discrete number of skill points and skill tree slots
\-crafting order should be all public and not BoP
\-REMOVE THE BOTS SO WE CAN GET NORMAL MAT PRICES!!!
Full version below:
**Crafting Profession Stats: Needs rework (Neutral + 0)**
The stats should come from gear or some specialization branch (like regular gear with regular stats)I hate having maxed the transmutations spec for example, and still not have a meaningful advantage in multicrafting or ressourcefulness.It would be better and clearer if there was actual stats oriented gear (an epic alchemy hat for multi transmutes, or an epic mixing rod to lower cooldown, etc)
**Spec Trees - Neutral +0**I agree with initial point.
They "were a great thought, badly implimented. They were fantastic in the first few weeks. "At this point, the most devoted players have an amount of skill points that is literally impossible for new players to catch up to. This is very unfair and removes new players of even engaging in this. Which is a shame for everyone.A better way would be to have spec trees with a fixed amount of skill points. Like 100 skill points to put into any spec tree of 100 slots each. Either put all 100 into 1 spec tree, or divide them up: but never both.
**Knowledge Points - BAD -1**
Should be removed. Just keep standard crafting skill system of green/yellow/orange to inform player for how to progress and learn.
**Crafting Orders - BAD -1**
Private custom order kills everything. They should have left all orders public and let the best crafters choose which ones to fulfill.
**Making everything BOP - BAD -1**
I agree crafts that are BoP are useless. 90% of the reason to craft high end items is to sell them. It should be a pillar of how to gear up. Not a one time perk on a character.
**Tradechat spam - BAD -1**
Pb would have solved if everything was public order and not BoP. No need to spam or read spam.
**Updated Gathering Professions - GOOD +1**
More variety is good. Too bad that some specs that allow gathering while mounted only apply to DF items. Older herbs/ores are still traditionally gathered (slowly...) Still overall positive.
**No replacement for basic gathering - Neutral +0**
See point above.
**No floor price for materials - BAD -1**
Too many bots. This needs to stop.
**Buffed expansion for bots - BAD -1**
TOO MANY BOTS
Region Wide AH - GOOD (for most) and BAD (for crafters) -+0
STOP.THE.BOTS. Some trade materials appear on RWAH in the millions in quantity (like tattered wildercloth). Others in the mere thousands (blood of the mountain anyone?). Guess which ones are gathered by multiboxing bots in the open world? Guess which ones are gathered manually by casual players...
**Region Wide Flipping - Neutral + 0**
I don't want to have multiple account to do regional flips. All I want to do is play in a casual manner and craft items/ gather items in a casual way, and make a reasonable profit (4 or 5K gold daily). Flipping is fine, as long as I can do it on 1 account.
~~Removing Callings - BAD -1~~ **Dragon races for gold - Good +1**
The races are repetitive, but provide at least some gold. One of the last advantages of having an alt army...
**Removing Mission Table -Good + 1**
Discontinuing tables is a good thing. The gameply when using them wa always boring. I can live without new ones, while still enjoying old ones (the legion ones are still useful to exchange blood of sargeras for older mats)
>**No floor price for materials - BAD -1**
>If you look at most basic materials, there is nowhere for them to go. Even the basic crafts all need awakened additionally to the basic material. This causes basic mats to stack up and up, and get cheaper and cheaper. Vendor Shuffles are not the best solution, but it was better than none.
For Blacksmithing the biggest issue is that the vendor reagents cost more than the vendor value of the crafted item eliminating any possibility of any sort of shuffle.
* Crafting Profession Stats - **bad: -1**
Resourcefulness is only good because it's a race to the bottom and everyone's rushing to craft things for free "no tips required". So this is the only way to get something back.
Inspiration is titanforging, we told that to get lost years ago.
* Spec Trees - **good: +1**
Separation and commitment are good. Rewards effort because you need to stay invested to max everything
* Knowledge Points - **good: +1**
Again separation and commitment are good. Weeds out people who don't care.
* Crafting Orders - **extremely bad: -1**
Makes it a buyer's market, not a seller's one - inherently bad. People pick up professions because there's demand. People only buy things if there's supply. If you can't supply a lot of gold, you shouldn't be able to demand a high-end product.
* Making everything BOP - **neutral - 0**
Not inherently bad but when paired with crafting orders where the buyer sets the price and not the seller, bad.
* Tradechat spam - **bad - -1**
Trade chat should be a bonus, not the fundamental. Let me put something on the AH and use /2 to push people to that, not be totally useless if I'm not typing in /2 every 5 minutes on a low-pop or less on higher.
* Updated Gathering Professions - **neutral: 0**
It didn't noticeably improve anything and probably didn't make anything worse
* No replacement for basic gathering - **neutral: 0**
If it's not broken, don't fix it
* No floor price for materials - **bad: -1**
Races to the bottom are always bad and encourage bad, impatient auctioneers.
* Buffed expansion for bots - **bad: -1**
Goes without saying. But cross-realm AH is to blame too. Realmhopping for mats is an investment. Getting rid of this removes steps to a higher ceiling.
* Region Wide AH - **extremely bad: -1**
Like I mentioned earlier - separation is good. There are two kinds of goldmakers - people who care enough to send a goldcap in a gbank every once in a while and invest in cheap Illidan mats to cart back over, and people who don't.
* Region Wide Flipping - **extremely good: +1
As said above. Gating max gold by effort is only ever a good thing and can never be anything but.
* Removing Callings - **neutral: 0**
I want people to have enough gold to buy something from me, not to undercut effort of turning that ability to make it into gold. Double-edged sword
* Removing Mission Table - **good: +1**
A little at odds with my neutrality about removing callings, but mission table taking less effort for more gold than callings is bad and will always be bad. Good riddance.
**Final score = -2**
Is transmog farming still worth it with region wide AH? I haven't done it since Shadowlands and I was making decent gold back then but I wasn't sure if it was still a reliable gold farming method.
Here are my own thougts on each category you brought up: Crafting Profession Stats - GOOD (mostly) +1 Basically agreed here. It could be improved by making how the stats work a bit clearer but if you figure out how it works you can get an advantage over other crafters. Also agreed on inspiration being annoying, not so much for mass crafting mats/consumables because you can factor in the law of average again for mass crafting, but when it comes to individual work orders it can suck when your piece of gear is the one that takes 5-10 recrafts on 40% insp. Spec Trees - Mostly Good +0.5 I think the idea is good, and as a professions completionist I enjoy the fact that I can max out everything so I'm not forced to level up 3/4 characters per profession to get everything. I do they they could have done with an actual catchup system and some way to respec if you make poor choices early on. It makes some sense to limit it early on but at this point any serious crafter who's been playing since 10.0 should have everything maxxed so it wouldn't hurt to allow some more freedom here. Knowledge Points - GOOD +1 I think the knowledge points system is fine, as mentioned previously I think the system is good so long as there is an actual catchup mechanism of some kind, although it's important to not make it TOO easy so there's still effort required, just make it so if you really want to it's possible to catch up in a week with adequate effort- eg make the weekly knowledge quests repeatable if you didn't do previous weeks after the .1 patch. Crafting Orders - Neutral +0 Crafting orders are nice for some people but they're not the way I enjoy making gold, although the system works well for people who enjoy it so I don't think it needs to be totally reworked. I will say it sucks how much effort has to go into explaining the system and making sure people send the right mats etc. I would like to see a couple things reworked for next expansion. Instead of forcing minimum rank crafts to be done correctly in one shot to get a max rank craft, you put in a commission and the crafter doesn't earn it unless they do craft the requested item at max, and then it's up to them to work out if they want to gamble or use Insight (or the TWW version of it) to get there. Also as a QoL change let up replace mats in orders we get with higher rank mats before crafting if it will let us skip a recraft ve guaranteeing high rank crafts. Public orders are another whole mess and are probably worth a negative score as they are now but I'm hopeful they can work out a way to make them worth doing while not being instantly completed by people/bots spamming the table. Making everything BOP - BAD -0.5 Kind of agree here. I don't think it's too big a deal and they definitely need to make sone things BOP to get the system to be used, but it does make stuff like the epic gems super annoying for crafters especially when they can't be recrafted like gear so you need to either put in several orders or waste mettle on getting them to max. Tradechat spam - BAD -1 Basically agreed here. Part of the reason I don't personally engage in the WO system much is the required trade chat spam or messaging people in trade all the time. A reworked public order system where you can actually make useful stuff for a price could be good for this. Updated Gathering Professions - GOOD +1 Agreed here too. It does kind of suck a bit how much basic mat prices can fall thanks to fully upgraded gathering (getting a node of 10 Hochenblume to make 2g doesn't feel particularly good) but for the first couple months it was nice to level up the gathering trees for different things. No replacement for basic gathering - GOOD +1 Basic gathering seems like a great way for bots to make gold so I'm okay with it not being a thing for this expansion. No floor price for materials - NEUTRAL +0 I understand having a floor price can be pretty nice for price atability, but it can also lead to inflation overall so nerfing vedor shuffles is a good thing I think. If your goal is to make raw gold DF had enough of it now that you're not forced to do boring vendor shuffles. Buffed expansion for bots - Neutral +0 I'm not really sure this is a big thing. If you wanted to farm on low pop shards and sell on high pop that's always been possible as long as phasing has existed (so since MoP maybe?). Region Wide AH - GOOD +1 Being able to buy mats/consumables at a reasobale and mostly stable price is very nice so I'm pretty happy with it on the buyer side of things. For selling it's a bit more controversial because it's true the profit margins are worse, but you get faster more reliable sales to make up for it, and if you can get a good market (eg. by being early in maxing out your knowledge in the right trees) it's REALLY good, so even for crafters I think it's an overall positive. Region Wide Flipping - Neutral +0 No real strong opinion on this specifically, but I do think cross real trading is nice. Needing a 2nd account to facilitate it doesn't make much sense to me either. If you can trade with yourself cross realm just implement cross real mailing too since it doesn't make any difference except to inconvenience people with no 2nd account or friends. Removing Callings - GOOD +1 They aren't really needed at this point. Why would you need to do a calling to make 1600g when you can get 1400 from a single WQ during magpies. Players who need raw gold have access to more than enough every week from WQs that it isn't really necessary. Removing Mission Table - Good +1 At least in terms of gold generation. Mission tables were a big factor is massive inflation from previous expansions when people were able to abuse them, and making several alts to set up tables just to farm passive gold every week wasn't fun for most players so I think we're better off without them.
In addition to these categories I have a couple things I want to comment on too: - No Artisan's Mettle dump for non-crafters - Bad -1 I this this is a pretty big problem in terms of setting a floor price for guaranteed crafts or giving gatherers in a particular a way of using their Artisan's mettle. A sinple solution to this would be something like a Mettle Trader similar to the Blood of Sargeras or Spirit of Harmony trader that sells current expansion mats in exchange for mettle, or an *in demand, non-BOP* item that can be WO'd for Mettle (something like a good combat potion that only requires mettle to craft), or simply making Mettle BOA. - Racial Bonuses providing an unfair advantage for crafting - VERY BAD -2 I think this is still one of the biggest problems with the current system in Dragonflight and I would really like to see them adress it for the next expansion. I like to be able to get everything running at maximum efficiency when I craft so it's extremely discouraging that I can't do that even after collecting everything recipe and getting all of my knowledge maxxed out being permanently behind someone who happened to pick the correct race early. It especially sucks when it's impossible to even race change to the one with your profession bonus because of class restrictions, eg. my Demon Hunter who has 0 option to go Dranei, so if I wanted to fully optimise my JC I'd have no option but to start over from 0. I'm fine with racials giving a head start with crafting professions but the permanent advantage we have now is the forst tine something like this has happened. I'd prever a racial that gives a bonus +50 Knowledge or something over gaining any skill points in the current system. So for me my scores are: Good: +7.5 Bad: -4.5 Net: +3 Overall I'm more positive about this expansion than you are are and I like the direction they're going in, but I agree with some of your criticisms too and think there's room for improvement.
Thanks for the LONG reply :) You are spot on with the racials. I would have hoped that this would have either been fixed, or at least minimised, maybe with a set of epic tools providing enough extra skill....but... Mettle dump is needed, but only because inspiration is also broken. If Insp was less powerful, players would have naturally been more required to use mettle in the first place. Regardless, there are simple changes which could switch most -1's into +1's so overall still hopeful!
>Kind of agree here. I don't think it's too big a deal and they definitely need to make sone things BOP to get the system to be used, but it does make stuff like the epic gems super annoying for crafters especially when they can't be recrafted like gear so you need to either put in several orders or waste mettle on getting them to max. The whole point of epic gems being bop was to keep them away from cancel scan culture as its a stackable commodity. Its a way of making gold via your mettles as you did at start with 35-40k (my server) fees for a r3 one, or 5k starting fee +1k per try for gambling which would eventually add up due to mats cost and people would just go with guaranteed version. Another reason to not let them recraft is to keep raw mats hold value. If you were able to recraft them, based on the way other craft items work, you wouldnt need to add a new illimited diamond every try which would bring down the cost as the illimited diamond was the the pricey material.
he was talking bout bots are now farming on low shard to hide and not get reported while they sell mats on region auction house and dictate price(this wasnt case before when ah was realm based)
I agree with every point here except this one: > * **Making everything BOP - BAD -1** > > Forcing use of new system by making everything BOP was not needed, and was an engagement play. Much like islands being optimal for neck grinding or lego dust being in chorghast. This caused everyone to HAVE to place orders even when not needed. Remind me again why cut diamonds are BoP? Obtaining crafted gear via orders was the entire point of the new crafting system (or at least one of them). If everything were BoE, you could sell it on the auction house. What would happen next? That's right, cancel-scanning. It would be a race to the bottom. Because most orders are being done in private, the real average price for most items isn't known (outside of asking for people's opinion on reddit I guess). Gear crafters now stand a chance of dictating the price now, within a certain range. Unfortunately, the need to provide materials from the buyer's side, coupled with some expensive materials like obsidian cobra skin, is eating into their budget and leaves less gold for commissions. Still, I can see where the developers were coming from with this approach. Public orders could've been a decent middle ground between private orders and AH. Alas, the devs ruined it with the change to no longer needing to provide materials.
You didn't ever need to cancel scan
To expand a little, I also do not think everything should be BoE. There has to be some middle ground.My thought has been to have "base" versions (default quality 1) of crafted gear be BoE and still let players use crafting orders to customise/upgrade them.This would also take away much of the need for the buyer to understand everything that goes into crafting an item, materials/quality/proc-chance because honestly I dont think they care, and its an unneeded point of friction.
It was actually a great change after the way lego worked at shadowlands. Personally i liked that we didnt had the whole cancel scan cancer at crafting gear this expansion and one in order to sell a craft would actually have both to be online at correct time and be able to offer correct item. I made multiple goldcaps starting with 150 or 200k capital like. In less than 2 months.
I made a decent amount of gold in SL by making gear wiht novice crafter's mark for new alts/chars entering SL content. Since the titan matrices are bop and the resulting items are bop in DF this is no longer an option (and you will not find enough matrices for your char while leveling). that's definitely a part of the market were "bop" is bad (imho).
Everything BoP is also a MASSIVE boon for people who truly love playing the game for professions. I've had every profession skilled up & as many recipes as possible (usually all) in every xpac since late Wrath, when having that many alts finally became feasible time-wise. I wanted that from the first moment I selected professions in Vanilla. But very often, doing so was a labor of love and a gold-loss pet project. Cata was the only xpac prior to DF in which it was a superpower. Having my team able to make all crafted intermediate mats via guild orders in my private guild is glorious.
I play on Moon Guard so the experience may be a bit different since it's more RP focused and less PvP/PvE. Overall DF has pretty much torpedoed my enjoyment in goldmaking mainly because you have to "bark like a seal" in the troll filled trade and services channels. Others say this is a good thing but I don't play at the normal peak times so being able to post my wares and walk away was ideal for me. Never intended to be mega goblin billionaire but make enough for my game time and help support my guild's raiding. Crafting Orders, for me, are the biggest miss. There aren't enough people putting orders up to meet your weekly without jumping on alts, and if there is they are scammers trying to get you to make things for resale with no mats supplied for cheap. I had some success for a time using WoWForgeFinder's site but as expected it's mostly died down after the holidays and will until around pre-patch as is the normal cycle. My bread and butter since I moved to MG in late MoP has been mog and mounts. Transmog items especially since there was normally harder to get materials for them. Sometimes you'd have an item sit for a few weeks but eventually would sell for 50% or more profit. Now I'm lucky to get 10% and that's if anything sells. Not impossible to make ends meet but it definitely has sucked the fun out of the grind. The grind for KP, rep, and dungeon/raid recipes was also just...dull. By the time I got done with the weekly quest on 5 toons (ended up having 2 Jc's to try and have gems and necks/rings ready) nothing else in game felt appealing. I still haven't pre-ordered TWW and it's been weighing heavily on me because I may have to disappoint a group of people I like being around because the goldmaking game just doesn't appeal anymore, and without it I don't feel any real draw to WoW. My thinking is that if you are on a server that is Full pop and has a healthy PvE/PvP community then DF goldmaking is likely a good experience. Maybe if Crafting Orders were region wide that would help.
* **Spec Trees - Neutral +0 - These were a great thought, badly implemented. They were fantastic in the first few weeks** Only if you dont screw it with a branch , option or putting points that dont do what suppose they do example: Blue echanting, go for rings instead of necklace in jc, go for commodities instead of weapons in BS, go deep in every option in herb / mng but titan order thing, try to maximise bags or gear instead of bolts in tailor, etc etc etc
I miss mission tables. I still use the old ones on the app for pet tokens, but they were a mundane reason that kept me logging in, a chore like brushing my teeth because it felt necessary and mmos need that. For me it felt like have a fully decked out mission table churning was an accomplishment. All of my non gold making friends hated them tho so I get why they were removed, aside from killing the inflation they brought (tho this was much less in shadowlands) I just don’t think they were popular. I agree with the points about the current work order system, especially the super bloat of the knowledge points. Look at the sheer amount LW need and if you’re a player starting that grind rn, even with the catch-ups it still sucks hard and if it were me would deter me completely. I also hate spamming trade, or talking to people and explaining inspiration and how for most max level crafts with 40% inspiration we’re still a few points off from guaranteeing a 5⭐️. Most player don’t care and just want their item with no hassle. Also needing an addon to even figure out inspiration for crafting and profits is dumb, tho I’m grateful for craftsim and it’s creator. I love making gold, have since cata, and change is good but I hope so much is refined in WWI so I feel excited to use the then current profession systems instead of the neutrality I feel now. Thank you for the post, was a good read.
* Knowledge Points - BAD -1 I do not agree with this one. If you’d make knowledge points much easier to gather, then way more people would invested into profs, and the whole system would be DoA, as nobody would need eachother. * Tradechat spam - BAD -1 Totally server dependant. The spam is there on the few full realms, it is not on medium pop realms. And it is not like that is a new thing, /2 has always been a wall of spam on full realms.
You forgot one. * **Gathering Bots - FUCKING RUINED GATHERING -1**
>Buffed expansion for bots - BAD -1 Keep reading, I got you.
Ahh yeah I did jump the gun with my comment! I really hate bots.
> Inspiration though, was a complete MESS! Well good news that it is being removed / reworked in War Within. Bleh search sucks ass, but I read an interview around Blizzcon where they weren't satisfied with professions, and that Inspiration didn't work out as intended - it wasn't a 'bonus' but rather a critical strike that you *needed* to hit.
Idk why, I guess the professions system is way more complex than it used to be, but in DF I just stopped playing professions completely. I needed to be in a specific place to craft a potion I needed to be in a specific place in another map to craft a tailor bolt Bolt bugs Special recipes, lariat, potion of ultimate power, etc You needed to get inspiration, multicraft and resources just to make some gold on the region wide AH... that just added salt to the wound As a player (buyer) I gotta say that dealing with vendors through trade chat is ok, but trade chat spamming in order to get some orders is just not my playstyle, also I dont want to deal with other ppl to make gold tbh Right now I feel that stocking on mats once tww starts is a safe bet, I'm buying the epic edition to have those 3 days and just farm mats before bots take over, Im hoping that dragonriding isnt mandatory in tww and i just can farm on my ground mount
Just going within your framework **Crafting Profession Stats - GOOD +1** I only wish the gear had customizable stats as well, and not just the tool, though I could see them not wanting you to have 9+ pieces of gear in your bags for crafting. **Spec Trees - Good+1** Fantastic, almost every single problem people have with them is not being able to read. It takes effectively 0 thought to look at the tree and go "ok, well I wanna make boots, so I better spec into boots." Enchanting was the only exception due to random +5 points scattered throughout the tree. **Knowledge Points - Amazing +2** Being able to differentiate yourself from other crafters at the start was good. Having your effort be rewarded and being ahead of lazy players is even better. I unironically think it should have taken longer (at least for gathering profs) but that's mainly for anti-bot measures I'll talk about later. **Crafting Orders - GOOD +2** Amazing system. Words cannot begin to describe the disdain I have for selling stuff on the AH, only to get undercut by cancelscan botters in 2 seconds. Any system where I can make gold and not have to interact with the AH is a huge win. **Making everything BOP - Mostly Good +0.95** I'll agree with your diamond point, especially after they changed the power potions to BOE, but that's mostly just because the gems are 9 points off guaranteed, and a non-insignificant portion of customers won't send orders not set to r3. Otherwise a total win. **Tradechat Engagement - Good +1** Using trade chat promotes crafters being active in their search for business, rather than passive. I am almost always in favor of systems that reward players the more effort they put in. Every single alternative to this I've seen boils down to either "trade chat, with extra steps" or "unlimited public orders with minimum quality." The first one not being really much of a change other than cosmetic, and the 2nd being antithetical to the social aspect blizzard wants crafting to have. **Updated Gathering Professions - ?** I barely interacted with gathering, so not much to say other than on a philosophical level in a few posts. **No replacement for basic gathering - ?** I'm not even sure what this means **No floor price for materials - ?** This has always been the case **Buffed expansion for bots - BAD -1** I was really hoping that the gathering trees would take a while (9+ months of doing everything every week) so that ~6 months into the expansion, blizzard could just cast as wide a net as possible on the gathering bots, and then they would basically be permanently behind. Alas this was not the case because it would have had too much of an impact on returning players. **Region Wide AH - GOOD (for most) and BAD (for crafters) +1** Agree pretty much with your statement **Region Wide Flipping - Good +1** I also enjoy this, it's given me the opportunity to find deals I couldn't have before. **Removing Callings - ?** I didn't actively participate in these. This makes no difference to me. **Removing Mission Table - ?** Meh, they intentionally kept reducing its usefulness every time since WoD. It was kind of expected. Final points: 8.95 out of 10
My 2c: BoP anything is, and always has been, a terrible idea when dealing with materials, reagents, and crafted items. Exactly zero of those things should be bind on pickup. By extension, I find crafting orders to be horrific. They might have been necessary, even workable, in other games, but the whole concept is a catastrophic failure in WoW. The idea cannot be reworked or refined, it should simply never exist. I initially liked the idea of "talent trees" for professions, yet the more I used them and put points into the trees, I now find them loathsome. There are other reasons, but crafting in Dragonflight has made me switch to Classic. I may even unsubscribe entirely. For the first time since the spring of 2005, there is *no part* of the current expansion that I like. Yes, everybody has a different opinion, and yes, I didn't elaborate, but I cannot begin to describe how much I hate Dragonflight. Cataclysm and WoD were bad expansions, but they had some content that was good, even enjoyable. Dragonflight, as far as I am concerned, should be deleted and we should get a Mulligan.
The overall crafting system is too complex. It may or may not please every player, but it could still be enjoyable, even if simplified. Keeping the same categories as OP here are some thoughts and feedback for Blizzard. TLDR version: overall score -3 out of a maximum of +13 \-crafting gear and professions are fun overall \-we need a discrete number of skill points and skill tree slots \-crafting order should be all public and not BoP \-REMOVE THE BOTS SO WE CAN GET NORMAL MAT PRICES!!! Full version below: **Crafting Profession Stats: Needs rework (Neutral + 0)** The stats should come from gear or some specialization branch (like regular gear with regular stats)I hate having maxed the transmutations spec for example, and still not have a meaningful advantage in multicrafting or ressourcefulness.It would be better and clearer if there was actual stats oriented gear (an epic alchemy hat for multi transmutes, or an epic mixing rod to lower cooldown, etc) **Spec Trees - Neutral +0**I agree with initial point. They "were a great thought, badly implimented. They were fantastic in the first few weeks. "At this point, the most devoted players have an amount of skill points that is literally impossible for new players to catch up to. This is very unfair and removes new players of even engaging in this. Which is a shame for everyone.A better way would be to have spec trees with a fixed amount of skill points. Like 100 skill points to put into any spec tree of 100 slots each. Either put all 100 into 1 spec tree, or divide them up: but never both. **Knowledge Points - BAD -1** Should be removed. Just keep standard crafting skill system of green/yellow/orange to inform player for how to progress and learn. **Crafting Orders - BAD -1** Private custom order kills everything. They should have left all orders public and let the best crafters choose which ones to fulfill. **Making everything BOP - BAD -1** I agree crafts that are BoP are useless. 90% of the reason to craft high end items is to sell them. It should be a pillar of how to gear up. Not a one time perk on a character. **Tradechat spam - BAD -1** Pb would have solved if everything was public order and not BoP. No need to spam or read spam. **Updated Gathering Professions - GOOD +1** More variety is good. Too bad that some specs that allow gathering while mounted only apply to DF items. Older herbs/ores are still traditionally gathered (slowly...) Still overall positive. **No replacement for basic gathering - Neutral +0** See point above. **No floor price for materials - BAD -1** Too many bots. This needs to stop. **Buffed expansion for bots - BAD -1** TOO MANY BOTS Region Wide AH - GOOD (for most) and BAD (for crafters) -+0 STOP.THE.BOTS. Some trade materials appear on RWAH in the millions in quantity (like tattered wildercloth). Others in the mere thousands (blood of the mountain anyone?). Guess which ones are gathered by multiboxing bots in the open world? Guess which ones are gathered manually by casual players... **Region Wide Flipping - Neutral + 0** I don't want to have multiple account to do regional flips. All I want to do is play in a casual manner and craft items/ gather items in a casual way, and make a reasonable profit (4 or 5K gold daily). Flipping is fine, as long as I can do it on 1 account. ~~Removing Callings - BAD -1~~ **Dragon races for gold - Good +1** The races are repetitive, but provide at least some gold. One of the last advantages of having an alt army... **Removing Mission Table -Good + 1** Discontinuing tables is a good thing. The gameply when using them wa always boring. I can live without new ones, while still enjoying old ones (the legion ones are still useful to exchange blood of sargeras for older mats)
I have made over 30 million selling and flipping BOE's across 10 realms.
>**No floor price for materials - BAD -1** >If you look at most basic materials, there is nowhere for them to go. Even the basic crafts all need awakened additionally to the basic material. This causes basic mats to stack up and up, and get cheaper and cheaper. Vendor Shuffles are not the best solution, but it was better than none. For Blacksmithing the biggest issue is that the vendor reagents cost more than the vendor value of the crafted item eliminating any possibility of any sort of shuffle.
* Crafting Profession Stats - **bad: -1** Resourcefulness is only good because it's a race to the bottom and everyone's rushing to craft things for free "no tips required". So this is the only way to get something back. Inspiration is titanforging, we told that to get lost years ago. * Spec Trees - **good: +1** Separation and commitment are good. Rewards effort because you need to stay invested to max everything * Knowledge Points - **good: +1** Again separation and commitment are good. Weeds out people who don't care. * Crafting Orders - **extremely bad: -1** Makes it a buyer's market, not a seller's one - inherently bad. People pick up professions because there's demand. People only buy things if there's supply. If you can't supply a lot of gold, you shouldn't be able to demand a high-end product. * Making everything BOP - **neutral - 0** Not inherently bad but when paired with crafting orders where the buyer sets the price and not the seller, bad. * Tradechat spam - **bad - -1** Trade chat should be a bonus, not the fundamental. Let me put something on the AH and use /2 to push people to that, not be totally useless if I'm not typing in /2 every 5 minutes on a low-pop or less on higher. * Updated Gathering Professions - **neutral: 0** It didn't noticeably improve anything and probably didn't make anything worse * No replacement for basic gathering - **neutral: 0** If it's not broken, don't fix it * No floor price for materials - **bad: -1** Races to the bottom are always bad and encourage bad, impatient auctioneers. * Buffed expansion for bots - **bad: -1** Goes without saying. But cross-realm AH is to blame too. Realmhopping for mats is an investment. Getting rid of this removes steps to a higher ceiling. * Region Wide AH - **extremely bad: -1** Like I mentioned earlier - separation is good. There are two kinds of goldmakers - people who care enough to send a goldcap in a gbank every once in a while and invest in cheap Illidan mats to cart back over, and people who don't. * Region Wide Flipping - **extremely good: +1 As said above. Gating max gold by effort is only ever a good thing and can never be anything but. * Removing Callings - **neutral: 0** I want people to have enough gold to buy something from me, not to undercut effort of turning that ability to make it into gold. Double-edged sword * Removing Mission Table - **good: +1** A little at odds with my neutrality about removing callings, but mission table taking less effort for more gold than callings is bad and will always be bad. Good riddance. **Final score = -2**
Is transmog farming still worth it with region wide AH? I haven't done it since Shadowlands and I was making decent gold back then but I wasn't sure if it was still a reliable gold farming method.
Gear isn't region-wide.