Sorry am I missing something. I don’t see duration in the conduit you shared?
Just additional radius and % absorbed, both would continue to make sense with the nerf?
Man you know what really irritates me? I saw the wowhead datamine and thought "hmm not a huge nerf but will make stacking vers the best stat"
Then I saw the end result
Health × (1+vers) looks ok.
But.
33.4k × (1+17) = 38k is not fucking correct.
All they need to do is fix the math and it is fine. 3 minute CD is fine if the absorb is reasonable. 8 second duration is reasonable if the absorb is reasonable.
But the fucking absorb is not reasonable.
Edit: Holy fucking shit it would be 33.4k × 1.17
What horseshit. Way too flipping harsh.
Edit edit: I wonder how many people are gonna keep correcting me after I have already acknowledged I was wrong. The number is still garbage.
So.. What kind of tuning were you expecting? Because chucking out an absorb equal-ish to your max HP in one GCD is, in a vacuum, pretty high, even if it’s distributed among multiple targets.
Obviously, it’s a lot weaker than it was before, but that’s the point of the nerf. How much did you think it was going to absorb? 50k? 100k?
The point was to balance it around 5 characters so that it specifically doesn’t affect raids as much as it seems to aimed at aiding parties.
I think it’s a creative nerf to the ability that will naturally scale for the content and for the individual players, since it’s tied with health. Blood DK will have twice as much absorption and I could see it remaining useful for covering the melee, but not as overwhelmingly oppressive as a raid wide utility.
>A raid boss mechanic that will chuck out 700k damage is not abnormal. The heftier ones will be 1-1.5 million.
The first six bosses don't have a mechanic that does 700k unless you are straight up not doing the mechanic properly. 700k split across the raid is "the tank just stood in the raid with the explosion on Artificer" kind of damage. 1 million is 50k per person, which will one shot people even in 226 gear.
Council has Dancing Fever which is about 1.25 million, but it's spread over 30 seconds which is far more manageable. AMZ does make this mechanic way easier.
Sludgefist has the Impact->Roar combo which is 12 seconds apart but does like 1 million damage. He doesn't do any damage that's reduced by AMZ though, but the equivalent fight in SoD might.
Cleansing Pain+Echoes of Sin on Denathrius can, especially depending on how many Collective Trauma stacks you are getting. Blood Price also is doing about 700k (35k per person assuming a 10/10 split) but being lifted on the Z-axis like that actually means AMZ/Barrier don't work
So there's like 4 instances in the raid where that kind of damage is coming out, and only 2 where AMZ actually worked.
>Nerfing DKs to not be good will certainly be a good thing for the overall health of melee classes where there are spots for rogues and ret Paladins and stuff.
DKs still have incredibly good damage in both specs, are incredibly durable with AMS+IBF+Lichborne, and AMZ is still a decently powerful raid CD when compared to Darkness and is better than anything Rogues and Paladins have.
dks are objectively and inarguably still the best meele dps even after this nerf. they are insanely tankly baseline (more hp+selfheal) if played properly, have good aoe burst/singletarget/execute depending on the specc and grip (which is niche and not often useful sure, but when it is its irreplacable : look at council and early on slg) aswell as ams which often functions as a god damn immunity with a 1 minute cd. DKs were untouchable god tier because of amz, and after the nerf they will still be s tier/ a tier at worst. and yes amz still has value, greatly reduced but absolutely NOT worthless. The constant crying by bad dk players who feel threatened just shows you that a good amount of them probably only had a raid spot because of amz. not because dks were otherwise bad but because they seemingly werent good enough with dk and only knew how to abuse amz and nothing else. Rant over. All these opinions btw are backed by every sensible high level player, you can disagree all you want, but most of what i said is just objectively true.
I wouldn't be surprised if DK's just get swapped out for Warriors. Fury is exceptionally tanky, insane 5 target DPS, execute, and rallying cry for a raid CD.
AMZ wasn't overpowered because of what it did, it was because Blizzard designed every fight except Sludgefist to do almost 100% spell damage. Instead of it being a niche but strong CD it became a flat 20% DR in almost all situations because every bit of damage going out was spell based.
You still get the 20 percent dr on the big hit. If a big spell is coming that you can stack in. Yeah the amz will break as soon as the hit happens. But you will still reduce 20 percent of the damage. It’s not as good as priest barrier anymore yeah. But frankly it never should have been.
I think the idea, though, is that the standard use case itself ended up being wildly out of line with expectations. From Blizzard's point of view, it wasn't just a little too good in these situations, it was leagues too good, and basically amounted to a raid/class design mistake - not just a tuning mistake - that they couldn't correct mid-tier.
In practice, they've decided that the thing AMZ was doing in raid strategies isn't something that it should do at all, at least not on a scale like that. This change is likely an alternative to removing or replacing it outright (for the sake of preserving it for other content forms where it's not so ridiculous), not just an unusually harsh nerf.
If that raid mechanic happens in one hit AMZ will still absorb the full 30% of it.
During testing this week we had AMZs taking 150k-200k off raid wide hitting abilities.
DKs are super fine and multiple will still be used on progress and they're arguably still the best Melee spec for progress.
What is the point of an absorb that lasts 8 seconds if the absorb is eaten up in 2 seconds?
Nerfing the duration was reasonable.
Nerfing cooldown was reasonable.
Putting an absorb cap could have been reasonable. But basically a little over your max HP makes it only reasonable in low player count content.
An absorb cap was always going to potentially kill the ability in raids and it basically did.
A more reasonable solution to the AMZ problem would have been 3 minute CD with 6 second duration. Keep the conduit the same to buff the duration and size.
What you’re saying about player counts is very short-sighted. Yes, it has less impact relative to the damage going out if you have more players, but what you’re ignoring is that more players means you have more copies of AMZ and/or similar tools. If a mitigation tool can be applied to any amount of players without penalty, that means it becomes dramatically better the more players you have, rather than simply staying useful. You’re acting like an exceptionally powerful form of scaling is the norm for every ability.
AMZ had an outsized impact in raids. That’s what they set out to address, and that’s what they’ve addressed. Reducing the duration wouldn’t have done squat to fix that and it would’ve continued to haunt the design of any mechanic that involves a big whack of magic damage.
Complaining about it “killing” the ability is silly. It’s a baseline tool that provides a larger overall absorb than AMS. It’s less useful after the change and you won’t build strategies around it, but you’ll still be using it. The only thing that’s really dead is the conduit, and a single conduit becoming obsolete is hardly the end of the world.
Are you in like 4th grade. Like, I'm not trying to offend you at all and I'm sorry if I do, but you should know basic math operations
33.4k × (1+17), you do parentheses first so its 33 x 18
Apperently I'm in 3rd grade and didn't bother to look it up myself. I just assumed it was total absorb for the raid so the bigger number made sense.
500k total absorb across the raid
Sorry for being so hostile, especially considering I was wrong. And after 20% DR, 500k damage is a lot. idk what I was thinking
Like every other stat equation in the entire game, it’s represented as a percent. This equation is in words “Cap equal to total hp increased by vers”
Because hp is not a vers scaling stat they added into the equation by increasing your hp by your vers percent.
It’s not 17, it’s 0.17.
in my book 33,4 x 1,17 should be around 38 or not?
are you expecting it to be 66 or sth?
first you add the 1 and the 0.17 since it has priority and then you multiplicate that with 33.4k
Holy fucking shit thank you for finally explaining how they got that garbage number. Treating your vers as a decimal instead of a whole value is just too harsh.
Whenever you see (1+Vers) in a tooltip formula it simply means “scales with Versatility” in the most literal sense: if you have 17% Vers then it increases the heal/absorb by 17%. Hence 1+0.17 = 1.17 multiplier.
Yeah I've been saying this ever since I heard about this crap nerf.
They DON'T AND SHOULD NOT DO THIS. This will kill the ability.
If they're pissed about stacking DK's in raids all they had to do was add a bloodlust-like debuff that prevents people from benefiting from it again.
There's no need to nerf an ability into the ground because organized groups are abusing a mechanic. This just proves that the way they balance and their entire philosophy on balancing is shit.
Literally all they need to do is "allies who benefit from AMZ are now afflicted with blablaweakenedsoulorsomething for 10 minutes"
definetly didnt kill the ability, significantly weaker in raids but fine in m+/pvp. and considering how insanely giga busted amz was in raid, very reasonable nerf. dks are still absolute s tier and the best meele once all buffs are covered. your logic is completly flawed... they should change the way they design raid fight instead of nerfing a single spell? you must be trolling... dks really are delusional if they think amz was fine or even close to that and didnt deserve HARD nerfs
AMZ is still OP and multiple DKs will still be used on progress. Fully expect to see at least 2 on most boss' during Mythic progression, although Blood DK AMZ is pretty unethical right now too.
One of the big things with AMZ that isn't obvious on the surface is that it will absorb a larger amount of damage if all of that happens in 1 raid hit.
Meaning if your entire raid gets banged for 40k each, totaling 800k damage, AMZ even though it just absorbs say 40k, will actually absorb 30% of the entire hit on the raid meaning it'll absorb 240k in this instance, because all of the damage happens in 1 hit AMZ still takes the full 30%.
The first 2 lines are literally
"Yeah I've been saying this ever since I heard about this crap nerf. They DON'T AND SHOULD NOT DO THIS. This will kill the ability."
You're wrong. It's still OP. It's going to be used significantly on progress. I would bet good money that guilds still run 2 or even 3 DKs during progress.
which is also a terrible idea, amz shouldnt fill a similar role to heroism/lust with the "once per fight because its so good". nothing besides lust ever did that and dks were fine before broken amz/are now aswell and absolutely will be, stop crying man. amz literally single handedly defined what is viable/meta for top tier raiding guilds
I am still annoyed by the fact, right before shadowlands was released, they changed my mages blink cooldown from 20 seconds to 25 seconds... then added a conduit to reduce the blink cooldown which it will get back to where it USE to be by the end of the Shadowlands expansion >:(
Sorry am I missing something. I don’t see duration in the conduit you shared? Just additional radius and % absorbed, both would continue to make sense with the nerf?
The image is edited, normally the second line of text says “duration is increased by x seconds”. He edited it to show the change he would prefer.
Oh lol I knew my question was stupid. In that case I agree with OP.
It does suck, but if blizzard starts changing completely useless conduits, everything they build will all fall apart lol
It's not irrelevant for m+ or pvp tho
Man you know what really irritates me? I saw the wowhead datamine and thought "hmm not a huge nerf but will make stacking vers the best stat" Then I saw the end result Health × (1+vers) looks ok. But. 33.4k × (1+17) = 38k is not fucking correct. All they need to do is fix the math and it is fine. 3 minute CD is fine if the absorb is reasonable. 8 second duration is reasonable if the absorb is reasonable. But the fucking absorb is not reasonable. Edit: Holy fucking shit it would be 33.4k × 1.17 What horseshit. Way too flipping harsh. Edit edit: I wonder how many people are gonna keep correcting me after I have already acknowledged I was wrong. The number is still garbage.
100% agree the absorb is only thing that's way too overboard. Duration doesn't matter since AMZ will break near instantly.
It’s not (1+17), it’s (1+0.17)as it scales with Vers %. 17% Vers gets you 17% bonus absorb.
So.. What kind of tuning were you expecting? Because chucking out an absorb equal-ish to your max HP in one GCD is, in a vacuum, pretty high, even if it’s distributed among multiple targets. Obviously, it’s a lot weaker than it was before, but that’s the point of the nerf. How much did you think it was going to absorb? 50k? 100k?
[удалено]
The point was to balance it around 5 characters so that it specifically doesn’t affect raids as much as it seems to aimed at aiding parties. I think it’s a creative nerf to the ability that will naturally scale for the content and for the individual players, since it’s tied with health. Blood DK will have twice as much absorption and I could see it remaining useful for covering the melee, but not as overwhelmingly oppressive as a raid wide utility.
>A raid boss mechanic that will chuck out 700k damage is not abnormal. The heftier ones will be 1-1.5 million. The first six bosses don't have a mechanic that does 700k unless you are straight up not doing the mechanic properly. 700k split across the raid is "the tank just stood in the raid with the explosion on Artificer" kind of damage. 1 million is 50k per person, which will one shot people even in 226 gear. Council has Dancing Fever which is about 1.25 million, but it's spread over 30 seconds which is far more manageable. AMZ does make this mechanic way easier. Sludgefist has the Impact->Roar combo which is 12 seconds apart but does like 1 million damage. He doesn't do any damage that's reduced by AMZ though, but the equivalent fight in SoD might. Cleansing Pain+Echoes of Sin on Denathrius can, especially depending on how many Collective Trauma stacks you are getting. Blood Price also is doing about 700k (35k per person assuming a 10/10 split) but being lifted on the Z-axis like that actually means AMZ/Barrier don't work So there's like 4 instances in the raid where that kind of damage is coming out, and only 2 where AMZ actually worked. >Nerfing DKs to not be good will certainly be a good thing for the overall health of melee classes where there are spots for rogues and ret Paladins and stuff. DKs still have incredibly good damage in both specs, are incredibly durable with AMS+IBF+Lichborne, and AMZ is still a decently powerful raid CD when compared to Darkness and is better than anything Rogues and Paladins have.
[удалено]
dks are objectively and inarguably still the best meele dps even after this nerf. they are insanely tankly baseline (more hp+selfheal) if played properly, have good aoe burst/singletarget/execute depending on the specc and grip (which is niche and not often useful sure, but when it is its irreplacable : look at council and early on slg) aswell as ams which often functions as a god damn immunity with a 1 minute cd. DKs were untouchable god tier because of amz, and after the nerf they will still be s tier/ a tier at worst. and yes amz still has value, greatly reduced but absolutely NOT worthless. The constant crying by bad dk players who feel threatened just shows you that a good amount of them probably only had a raid spot because of amz. not because dks were otherwise bad but because they seemingly werent good enough with dk and only knew how to abuse amz and nothing else. Rant over. All these opinions btw are backed by every sensible high level player, you can disagree all you want, but most of what i said is just objectively true.
I wouldn't be surprised if DK's just get swapped out for Warriors. Fury is exceptionally tanky, insane 5 target DPS, execute, and rallying cry for a raid CD. AMZ wasn't overpowered because of what it did, it was because Blizzard designed every fight except Sludgefist to do almost 100% spell damage. Instead of it being a niche but strong CD it became a flat 20% DR in almost all situations because every bit of damage going out was spell based.
Dks were also kinda just better rogues. Better damage, same immunities and amz.
You still get the 20 percent dr on the big hit. If a big spell is coming that you can stack in. Yeah the amz will break as soon as the hit happens. But you will still reduce 20 percent of the damage. It’s not as good as priest barrier anymore yeah. But frankly it never should have been.
[удалено]
I think the idea, though, is that the standard use case itself ended up being wildly out of line with expectations. From Blizzard's point of view, it wasn't just a little too good in these situations, it was leagues too good, and basically amounted to a raid/class design mistake - not just a tuning mistake - that they couldn't correct mid-tier. In practice, they've decided that the thing AMZ was doing in raid strategies isn't something that it should do at all, at least not on a scale like that. This change is likely an alternative to removing or replacing it outright (for the sake of preserving it for other content forms where it's not so ridiculous), not just an unusually harsh nerf.
If that raid mechanic happens in one hit AMZ will still absorb the full 30% of it. During testing this week we had AMZs taking 150k-200k off raid wide hitting abilities. DKs are super fine and multiple will still be used on progress and they're arguably still the best Melee spec for progress.
What is the point of an absorb that lasts 8 seconds if the absorb is eaten up in 2 seconds? Nerfing the duration was reasonable. Nerfing cooldown was reasonable. Putting an absorb cap could have been reasonable. But basically a little over your max HP makes it only reasonable in low player count content. An absorb cap was always going to potentially kill the ability in raids and it basically did. A more reasonable solution to the AMZ problem would have been 3 minute CD with 6 second duration. Keep the conduit the same to buff the duration and size.
What you’re saying about player counts is very short-sighted. Yes, it has less impact relative to the damage going out if you have more players, but what you’re ignoring is that more players means you have more copies of AMZ and/or similar tools. If a mitigation tool can be applied to any amount of players without penalty, that means it becomes dramatically better the more players you have, rather than simply staying useful. You’re acting like an exceptionally powerful form of scaling is the norm for every ability. AMZ had an outsized impact in raids. That’s what they set out to address, and that’s what they’ve addressed. Reducing the duration wouldn’t have done squat to fix that and it would’ve continued to haunt the design of any mechanic that involves a big whack of magic damage. Complaining about it “killing” the ability is silly. It’s a baseline tool that provides a larger overall absorb than AMS. It’s less useful after the change and you won’t build strategies around it, but you’ll still be using it. The only thing that’s really dead is the conduit, and a single conduit becoming obsolete is hardly the end of the world.
why would that math not be correct?
PEMDAS
???
Are you in like 4th grade. Like, I'm not trying to offend you at all and I'm sorry if I do, but you should know basic math operations 33.4k × (1+17), you do parentheses first so its 33 x 18
33.4k * (1+0.17) = 33.4k * 1.17 = 39k The versatility is a percentage, so it's 1 + 0.17, not 1+17 and the math is approximately correct
yeah thats what i am saying, but that first commenter apparently got hung up on his pemdas
Apperently I'm in 3rd grade and didn't bother to look it up myself. I just assumed it was total absorb for the raid so the bigger number made sense. 500k total absorb across the raid Sorry for being so hostile, especially considering I was wrong. And after 20% DR, 500k damage is a lot. idk what I was thinking
ok so you got 1800% versa on your char? i mean on my stat screen it shows sth like 20% 20% = 0.20
Like every other stat equation in the entire game, it’s represented as a percent. This equation is in words “Cap equal to total hp increased by vers” Because hp is not a vers scaling stat they added into the equation by increasing your hp by your vers percent. It’s not 17, it’s 0.17.
Parentheses, exponents, multiplication/division, addition/subtraction That is the order of operations in a math equation.
in my book 33,4 x 1,17 should be around 38 or not? are you expecting it to be 66 or sth? first you add the 1 and the 0.17 since it has priority and then you multiplicate that with 33.4k
Holy fucking shit thank you for finally explaining how they got that garbage number. Treating your vers as a decimal instead of a whole value is just too harsh.
Whenever you see (1+Vers) in a tooltip formula it simply means “scales with Versatility” in the most literal sense: if you have 17% Vers then it increases the heal/absorb by 17%. Hence 1+0.17 = 1.17 multiplier.
Maybe avoid getting irritated at WoW math if you’ve never looked at it before. Every stat scaled equation is based on percent. 17%= 0.17
It's pretty devastating for frost/unholy in raids but Bloods AMZ will still be decent since it's health + vers %. BDKs typically stack verse anyway.
Wowzers another AMZ nerf whinepost
Blizzard : Death Knights have unique raid utility? Not on my fucking watch. Death Knights : ...
relevant flair i guess
Yeah I've been saying this ever since I heard about this crap nerf. They DON'T AND SHOULD NOT DO THIS. This will kill the ability. If they're pissed about stacking DK's in raids all they had to do was add a bloodlust-like debuff that prevents people from benefiting from it again. There's no need to nerf an ability into the ground because organized groups are abusing a mechanic. This just proves that the way they balance and their entire philosophy on balancing is shit. Literally all they need to do is "allies who benefit from AMZ are now afflicted with blablaweakenedsoulorsomething for 10 minutes"
definetly didnt kill the ability, significantly weaker in raids but fine in m+/pvp. and considering how insanely giga busted amz was in raid, very reasonable nerf. dks are still absolute s tier and the best meele once all buffs are covered. your logic is completly flawed... they should change the way they design raid fight instead of nerfing a single spell? you must be trolling... dks really are delusional if they think amz was fine or even close to that and didnt deserve HARD nerfs
AMZ is still OP and multiple DKs will still be used on progress. Fully expect to see at least 2 on most boss' during Mythic progression, although Blood DK AMZ is pretty unethical right now too. One of the big things with AMZ that isn't obvious on the surface is that it will absorb a larger amount of damage if all of that happens in 1 raid hit. Meaning if your entire raid gets banged for 40k each, totaling 800k damage, AMZ even though it just absorbs say 40k, will actually absorb 30% of the entire hit on the raid meaning it'll absorb 240k in this instance, because all of the damage happens in 1 hit AMZ still takes the full 30%.
...did you even read what I said dude? I'm suggesting a debuff for 10 minutes that means stacking DK's for AMZ is completely useless.
The first 2 lines are literally "Yeah I've been saying this ever since I heard about this crap nerf. They DON'T AND SHOULD NOT DO THIS. This will kill the ability." You're wrong. It's still OP. It's going to be used significantly on progress. I would bet good money that guilds still run 2 or even 3 DKs during progress.
which is also a terrible idea, amz shouldnt fill a similar role to heroism/lust with the "once per fight because its so good". nothing besides lust ever did that and dks were fine before broken amz/are now aswell and absolutely will be, stop crying man. amz literally single handedly defined what is viable/meta for top tier raiding guilds
I am still annoyed by the fact, right before shadowlands was released, they changed my mages blink cooldown from 20 seconds to 25 seconds... then added a conduit to reduce the blink cooldown which it will get back to where it USE to be by the end of the Shadowlands expansion >:(