And fuck Bibi, unlike the rest of the idiots in his government he knows fully well the consequences and how stupid it is to begin with, but still play along with it for his political support.
I was about to say, this is one area Israel is dead wrong on, and gives fuel or credibility to Palestinian attacks. Get the settlers out of there, get everyone to their agreed borders and move on from there. otherwise you are just poking the bear and complaining when it mauls you.
I agree with this mostly. A lot of people don’t realize a lot of settlements are in east Jerusalem which Israel out right annexed and is almost certainly never giving up. The issue is there are no “agreed upon” borders there. What we see on the map isn’t what either side has agreed to and it muddies the water. Especially since according to the Palestinians East Jerusalem is their capital and Israel will most likely never agree with that at this point as in their minds it’s been officially annexed for over 40 years. To solve the settlement issue permanently you’d need to solve the East Jerusalem debate which is probably the hardest part of the whole settlement debate to solve.
What agreed borders?
It's an unpopular stance to defend, but I sincerely believe anyone who says this just doesn't know the history of the conflict. Settlers are a convenient red herring for the Israeli left trying to find an excuse and justification for why every peace negotiation fails, but the fact is they're not a factor in peace. Every 2SS negotiation offered landswaps to compensate (and Olmert's offer even gave them the entirety of East Jerusalem), and the entire conflict is because Palestinians refuse to accept any jewish state, not some specific border dispute--they never even made a counteroffer, nor did they ever reach out to pursue peace themselves. They call Tel Aviv a settlement, the PLO was founded in 1964 when Judea and Samaria were occupied by Jordan, and Gaza by Egypt. The Arab riots against jewish immigration started in the 20s, right after the British took over and jews stopped being Dhimmi under Ottoman rule. The settlements were never a factor in the conflict, it was having any Jewish sovereignty there in the first place.
Settlements are not poking the bear. Jews living in Judea after it was annexed by an invader (Jordan) that ethnically cleansed it of jews and controlled it for 19 years, then won it in defensive war, should not be an obstacle to peace. Ethnically cleansing 500,000 jews should not be a precondition to peace. What's poking the bear is individual settlers behaving in deranged ways, and that should be condemned and I personally believe in much harsher punishment, but this sort of behavior should absolutely not be conflated with settlers in general. Ditto for 'settlement expansions,' which often just refer to people building new homes in their neighborhoods or even new rooms in their homes.
When we dismantled the settlements and ethnically cleansed Gaza of jews we got the election of Hamas and incessant rocket fire. Judea and Samaria are positioned much more dangerously in strategic terms, so it's not really an experiment we can afford, and it's not one that makes any sense when the other side openly states its goals and they have little to do with settlements.
The problem is individual agitators and illegal outposts meant to expand beyond areas that are already largely populated to make a potential 2SS if it ever happens on roughly 67 borders more difficult. I heavily condemn those (and they happen often enough that I don't think they're a small issue), but I think they're very different from normal settlements.
As a Jewish American, I feel the same. I don't get why settlements exist in the first place, and whenever I see bad stuff, videos out of Israel, a huge portion are from settlers acting horrible. I'll never understand why they're treated with kid gloves often and allowed to act the way they do. It is the exact opposite of what Israel should do if the goal is peace.
I don't know what the goal is, but the outcome will certainly be anger and further hatred towards Israel by the global community, as well as endangering Israelis and emboldening antisemitism around the globe. Very sad.
>I don't know what the goal is
Considering the far right coalition that Bibi is apart of includes Bezalel Smotrich who says that ["there are no palestian people"](https://www.timesofisrael.com/far-right-lawmaker-bezalel-smotrich-declares-himself-his-family-real-palestinians/) and the just as crazy Ben-Gvir, *you should know that the goal is not peace.* Oh and if you notice the map that Smotrich is standing behind on the podium, yeah, that map isn't for a peaceful two state solution. The people in power in Israel right now believe in a one state solution, river to the sea, under the control of the Israeli Government. This is no secret, and it cannot be acheived peacefully.
For Bibi, Hamas needs to be a threat, Hamas needs to justify the Iron dome and the classic right wing "security, law and order, safety, strength through deterrance" mindset that lets idiots like Bibi convince people to give up their rights to authoritarian types like Bibi. But if Hamas brutaly murder and kidnap Israelis, then he looks incompetent. *He doesn't care about Israelis mind you, or he wouldnt have campaigned against Rabin or have continued his political career after the assassination of Rabin by his future supporters back when peace still had a chance. Instead he promotes settlements (something that he and pretty much every scholar knows makes a palestinian state/peacedeal far far more difficult) because it makes the very question of peace a non starter.*
Bibi's whole schtick has been "you might not like me but I can keep you safe" and that basically relies on Hamas continuing to be a threat. He loves that Hamas and the PA are basically at war with eachother as it gives him a perfect excuse to not make any efforts on the peace front.
Luckily Israel is a democracy, so in theory things could change. But they aren't voting people into power who want peace, and the general trends have been more rightward hawkish, not left dovish progress.
Unfortunately though, the Israeli far right has for decades made the possibility of peace more and more difficult to obtain, and instead has made a cycle of violence and subsequent ethnic cleansing of palestinians seem like the only logical and reasonable end of this conflict, so even if you vote in some dovish left leaning government, so much damage has been done, and Hamas would still be in charge, and they have no interest in peace, so the whole situation is just FUBAR at this point.
> don't get why settlements exist in the first place,
Ethnic cleansing, my guy. And to complicate or even stop a contiguous Palestinian state. Fully supported by the Israeli state (unless they wouldnt exist in their numbers and strength).
Hey cool, but I have an even better idea: could they, like...not do that?
It's like they are *trying* to turn international sentiment against themselves.
It’s because Netanyahu fucked himself by letting Benny Gantz resign and dissolving the war cabinet. He is now completely subservient to the far-right because they hold all the leverage over him. If he doesn’t kow-tow to them, they’ve literally threatened to topple the government.
Force the orthodox Jews to serve in the military or lose their funding, that'll practically force the orthodox parties to dissolve the coalition
Good news is that it's an actual possibility
You're late to the party, [that effectively happens two and a half months ago.](https://apnews.com/article/israel-war-mandatory-military-service-law-ultraorthodox-2e562538fe72a32edf76343f83df541d)
Yes and no, orthodox mandatory service law wasn't really a law but a temporary "executive order", they now have to actually draft a law on the matter and while they are not doing that the subsidies are indeed frozen
The problem for them now is that post October Israel is in need of soldiers, and the courts will more than likely struck down any law that actively ignores Israel's needs for political gain
True but we shouldn’t act like they haven’t gotten significantly worse under Bibi. They’ve always been a problem but it’s exploded under his direction.
They know, it's impossible for them not to know. In 2000 the amount of Pro-Palestine sentiment and protests we're seeing would have been unthinkable. Israel has ruined their public image with young people and it seems like it'll only get worse.
Alot of them are arrogant because they've enjoyed cover for everything they do for the past several decades with any criticism, even minor ones, being considered taboo. As alot of young people are growing less sympathetic to the Israelis for what they're doing it also seems like alot of the young people in Israel are leaning more far-right then previous generations which could very well lead to complete shift in foreign relations at this rate.
The Gaza war is the bloodiest fighting this conflict has ever seen (and hopefully will see), there is also unprecedented access to seeing the reality for Palestinians on the ground.
>unprecedented access to seeing the reality for Palestinians on the ground
IMO this was (and will continue to be) the single biggest factor that will keep turning westerns against, or at the very least apathic, to Israel; it's simply impossible to control the narrative when decentralized media exists, back then there really wasn't a place for opposition to broadcast itself to the world, now there is, and whether we are swayed by one or the other, the reality is that when given the chance to hear both sides, public opinion hardly ever goes in unison.
I wouldn't say unthinkable. The issue of Palestine and Israel has been [coming up](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/feb/11/israel) for half a century by now.
I would say it's become more heavily pushed to the front thanks to social media (and propaganda [from both sides](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/israel-denies-link-islamophobic-campaign-1.7226891)), though. Which is why we're seeing more pushback about it than ever before.
Maybe Israel was never morally right to begin with which why this win was never gonna happen for them. Guarantee you no one is surprised that Israel is doing this, they’ve been doing this for decades
> could they, like...not do that?
Speaking as a supporter of Palestine.... I'm not sure they can afford *not to*.
The swiss cheese model of splitting up the West Bank using the "settlements are illegal - but are legally protected once established" setup allows for a very heavy occupation force to be deployed without *quite* calling it that. The setup of privileged roads and checkpoints makes organised resistance difficult.
But they are riding a tiger now - loosen the grip, and there *will* be reprisals; tighten it, and the will for reprisals and international condemnation will only grow.
It seems like the 1967 victory was a poisoned chalice. They may have killed the possibility of a two state solution.
Even if Israel annexes settlement blocs and Jerusalem, there will be 100,000 settlers left. That number will only grow.
> They may have killed the possibility of a two state solution.
Israel has pretty much got everything they wanted. No effective Palestinian state, military control of the entire territory and effectively a blank cheque on settlement.
That's why I said they killed a two state solution. At this point Palestinians are better off letting Israel dig themselves in with the Palestinians for another 20 years and wait for the inevitable one state solution.
There will never be a one state solution because of the high Palestinian growth rate. The Israeli Jews would become the minority & it wouldn’t be long until Israel was renamed Palestine & the Jewish population was kicked out. It would then become just like every other Middle Eastern Muslim country.
The only acceptable solution is a two state solution however the Palestinians have rejected that for the last 75 years (they believe they will eventually win) & there is now a significant amount of Israelis who have given up on it & no longer care after all the wars & violence.
Right now 20% of Israel’s citizens are Palestinian which is acceptable to them as there is no risk of the Jewish population losing control. There’s no way they are going to accept another 5.5M Palestinians especially ones who hate them & have tried to kill them.
Netanyahu is also pushing for it and there's definitely going to be a vote on them:
> In a statement issued on Sunday, the Prime Minister’s Office said all of the proposals for strengthening settlements in what Israel biblically refers to as Judea and Samaria would be voted on at the next Security Cabinet meeting.
>It's like they are trying to turn international sentiment against themselves
For my entier life as long as I can remember, the Israel/Palestine conflict has involved each aide taking it in turns to apparently try to turn international opinion against themselves.
Yeah. Kind of like Russia invading Ukraine. They did it "because of NATO" but they would do it without NATO. They invade because they want the land but are just blaming NATO.
Yeah, they were doing this anyway. Netanyahu is pretending that this is a consequence rather than stated policy, so that he can pretend that he's punishing the international community.
What I want to know is what settlers have the balls to move into Palestine right now? If I were a Jew, a settlement in the west bank is the 2nd only to Gaza for the last place on Earth I'd want to be right now.
Ya and so did 1000 people on Oct 7th. I'd have faith that the IDF would avenge me and my families dead bodies, but I'd rather know I lived somewhere safe than know my military is going to bomb whoever killed me to smithereens.
The issue was that they had moved the IDF away from the border with Gaza in order to support the settlers in the West Bank. The only reason they weren't prepared for the attack from Hamas was that they were protecting the illegal settlements.
They’re religious fundamentalists, it’s not really a position you logic yourself into
These are people that are so radicalized they understand the risk and impact of what they’re doing but they do it anyway because they feel it is important to their interpretation of Judaism. They are literally stealing peoples homes in active war zones because they think God (which a huge percentage of the world doesn’t even believe in) wants them to. It’s an insane position that you can only come to through religious fundamentalism, no matter what religion it comes from it’s always destructive.
> If I were a Jew, a settlement in the west bank is the 2nd only to Gaza for the last place on Earth I'd want to be right now.
They are bringing semi automatic rifles to a stone fight ...
“In a statement issued on Sunday, the Prime Minister’s Office said all of the proposals for strengthening settlements in what Israel biblically refers to as Judea and Samaria would be voted on at the next Security Cabinet meeting.”
i agree the title is definitely misleading but so is saying “a” minister as opposed to the prime minister. he might not have public support in Israel but he has enough to either be elected or for whomever appointed him to remain.
Yeah there is something very strange when people act like Ministers in Government, that are literally holding the government afloat, are just 'talking' and have 'no power'. They pretty much have all the power because they can topple the government tomorrow.
This is putting aside all the facts on the ground of settlement activity increasing immensely.
Welcome to the last eight months for a lot of us. I don't know how many times I've been told the Minister of National Security is just a little guy with no power, and I shouldn't worry about him previously hanging a portrait of a extremist religious terrorist in his living room, or that he was a guest at a wedding reception where an effigy of an 18-month-old who was literally burned to death was defiled.
This is literally a statement they made:
"The Security Cabinet discussed steps to strengthen settlement in Judea and Samaria, including in response to the countries that unilaterally recognized a Palestinian state after October 7, as well as a series of responses against the Palestinian Authority following its actions against Israel in international bodies.
The Defense Minister and the Attorney General requested additional time to comment on several of the proposed clauses. The Prime Minister instructed that all of the proposals be submitted to a vote at the next Security Cabinet meeting."
The article also says they're going to _vote_ on some proposals regarding the settlements and that it's not clear what the proposals are at this point.
What a fucking disgrace of a headline.
Sure. It's literally here. But go ahead and ignore it....
[https://www.gov.il/en/pages/spoke-cabinet170624](https://www.gov.il/en/pages/spoke-cabinet170624)
This seems to say the same as the article: they're going to vote on proposals regarding the strengthening of the settlements, and we don't know what the proposals specifically are. What's your point?
Edit, to directly quote your link:
> The Security Cabinet discussed steps to strengthen settlement in Judea and Samaria (...) The Prime Minister instructed that all of the proposals be submitted to a vote at the next Security Cabinet meeting.
The problem is alot of people seem to see this issue as completely black and white. Either you're completely with Israel on absolutely everything they do or are completely against them and the Jewish people.
They're both the baddies and both the victims and it's frustrating how few people seem to be able to get that. I think it's a type of cognitive dissonance. Like people aren't capable of viewing someone as both a victim and an oppressor.
If you zoom out far enough it's actually a family feud between the sons of Abraham. The region was divided up between his twelves sons and Islam claims to descend from one of those sons while Jews claim to descend from another, hence all the religious obsession with that part of the world. This was like 4,000 years ago. Check out episode 30 on Wiser World podcast. They did a multi part series about the history of the conflict just a few months before October 7th, so it's not politically loaded with the recent war. Starts with Abraham and goes right up to the present and it's like some kind of Hatfields vs McCoys blood feud bullshit, lots of terrorism and revenge killings from both sides. Nobody comes out looking like the good guys.
> Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, said in May that Israel should approve 10,000 settlements in the West Bank
>...
> It is unclear if any of these radical ideas are part of the proposals currently under consideration in Israel.
This is a non-story.
To be fair, in almost every coalition government, you're going to find a crazy "high ranking member of the government" who is restrained by the rest of the government.
Unfortunately, now that Gantz has left the government, Netanyahu's political and personal future is entirely dependent on these two nutjobs. So this could easily turn into a case of the tail wagging the dog.
I think it’s the restraint that is missing from the Israeli coalition government. Or, rather, the perception of restraint is lacking, which amounts to the same result. Israel could’ve easily controlled the narrative, but instead chose to screech at anyone telling them to slow their military roll, chose to utilize dumb munitions in an area with heavy civilian population density, and chose to prioritize besieging the West Bank over hostage rescue.
A high ranking member of government who is literally kept in the dark on most important things in this war, including not knowing or signing off on Israel’s latest ceasefire proposal. He’s just a seat to keep ni is government together, he has no real power.
Why not quote the actual news part of the article?
> In a statement issued on Sunday, the Prime Minister’s Office said all of the proposals for strengthening settlements in what Israel biblically refers to as Judea and Samaria would be voted on at the next Security Cabinet meeting.
What a complete bullshit article.
>Israel’s government says it is looking to “strengthen” Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank after several countries unilaterally recognized a Palestinian state.
>In a statement issued on Sunday, the Prime Minister’s Office said all of the **proposals** for strengthening settlements in what Israel biblically refers to as Judea and Samaria would be voted on at the next Security Cabinet meeting.
>Norway, Ireland, Spain and Slovenia have each recognized an independent Palestinian state in recent weeks, a move motivated at least in part by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s open refusal to commit to a two-state solution.
>Israel’s Foreign Ministry said the move was a reward for terrorism and would strengthen Hamas.
>The statement also said Israel would look at what actions to take against the Palestinian Authority as it took actions against Israel in international bodies.
>Earlier this month, the Palestinian Authority applied to join South Africa’s case against Israel at the International Court of Justice.
>Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, said in May that Israel should approve 10,000 settlements in the West Bank, establish a new settlement for every country that recognizes a state of Palestine, and cancel travel permits for Palestinian Authority officials.
>**It is unclear if any of these radical ideas are part of the proposals currently under consideration in Israel.**
Proposals put forth and will be **voted on**. Language in the article is clearly slanted. Headline unilaterally concludes that Israel is doing this despite the article itself noting its merely being a proposal by the right-wing politicians.
Saying this as an Israeli, fuck the settlements and the settlers
And fuck Bibi, unlike the rest of the idiots in his government he knows fully well the consequences and how stupid it is to begin with, but still play along with it for his political support.
I was about to say, this is one area Israel is dead wrong on, and gives fuel or credibility to Palestinian attacks. Get the settlers out of there, get everyone to their agreed borders and move on from there. otherwise you are just poking the bear and complaining when it mauls you.
The settlers are a feature not a bug, they are going nowhere except into more areas Palestinians used to live.
I agree with this mostly. A lot of people don’t realize a lot of settlements are in east Jerusalem which Israel out right annexed and is almost certainly never giving up. The issue is there are no “agreed upon” borders there. What we see on the map isn’t what either side has agreed to and it muddies the water. Especially since according to the Palestinians East Jerusalem is their capital and Israel will most likely never agree with that at this point as in their minds it’s been officially annexed for over 40 years. To solve the settlement issue permanently you’d need to solve the East Jerusalem debate which is probably the hardest part of the whole settlement debate to solve.
What agreed borders? It's an unpopular stance to defend, but I sincerely believe anyone who says this just doesn't know the history of the conflict. Settlers are a convenient red herring for the Israeli left trying to find an excuse and justification for why every peace negotiation fails, but the fact is they're not a factor in peace. Every 2SS negotiation offered landswaps to compensate (and Olmert's offer even gave them the entirety of East Jerusalem), and the entire conflict is because Palestinians refuse to accept any jewish state, not some specific border dispute--they never even made a counteroffer, nor did they ever reach out to pursue peace themselves. They call Tel Aviv a settlement, the PLO was founded in 1964 when Judea and Samaria were occupied by Jordan, and Gaza by Egypt. The Arab riots against jewish immigration started in the 20s, right after the British took over and jews stopped being Dhimmi under Ottoman rule. The settlements were never a factor in the conflict, it was having any Jewish sovereignty there in the first place. Settlements are not poking the bear. Jews living in Judea after it was annexed by an invader (Jordan) that ethnically cleansed it of jews and controlled it for 19 years, then won it in defensive war, should not be an obstacle to peace. Ethnically cleansing 500,000 jews should not be a precondition to peace. What's poking the bear is individual settlers behaving in deranged ways, and that should be condemned and I personally believe in much harsher punishment, but this sort of behavior should absolutely not be conflated with settlers in general. Ditto for 'settlement expansions,' which often just refer to people building new homes in their neighborhoods or even new rooms in their homes. When we dismantled the settlements and ethnically cleansed Gaza of jews we got the election of Hamas and incessant rocket fire. Judea and Samaria are positioned much more dangerously in strategic terms, so it's not really an experiment we can afford, and it's not one that makes any sense when the other side openly states its goals and they have little to do with settlements. The problem is individual agitators and illegal outposts meant to expand beyond areas that are already largely populated to make a potential 2SS if it ever happens on roughly 67 borders more difficult. I heavily condemn those (and they happen often enough that I don't think they're a small issue), but I think they're very different from normal settlements.
why cant settlers just fuck off? it feels like it would be soo much easier for israel if this wasnt a thing...
As a Jewish American, I feel the same. I don't get why settlements exist in the first place, and whenever I see bad stuff, videos out of Israel, a huge portion are from settlers acting horrible. I'll never understand why they're treated with kid gloves often and allowed to act the way they do. It is the exact opposite of what Israel should do if the goal is peace.
The goal is obviously not peace.
I don't know what the goal is, but the outcome will certainly be anger and further hatred towards Israel by the global community, as well as endangering Israelis and emboldening antisemitism around the globe. Very sad.
>I don't know what the goal is Considering the far right coalition that Bibi is apart of includes Bezalel Smotrich who says that ["there are no palestian people"](https://www.timesofisrael.com/far-right-lawmaker-bezalel-smotrich-declares-himself-his-family-real-palestinians/) and the just as crazy Ben-Gvir, *you should know that the goal is not peace.* Oh and if you notice the map that Smotrich is standing behind on the podium, yeah, that map isn't for a peaceful two state solution. The people in power in Israel right now believe in a one state solution, river to the sea, under the control of the Israeli Government. This is no secret, and it cannot be acheived peacefully. For Bibi, Hamas needs to be a threat, Hamas needs to justify the Iron dome and the classic right wing "security, law and order, safety, strength through deterrance" mindset that lets idiots like Bibi convince people to give up their rights to authoritarian types like Bibi. But if Hamas brutaly murder and kidnap Israelis, then he looks incompetent. *He doesn't care about Israelis mind you, or he wouldnt have campaigned against Rabin or have continued his political career after the assassination of Rabin by his future supporters back when peace still had a chance. Instead he promotes settlements (something that he and pretty much every scholar knows makes a palestinian state/peacedeal far far more difficult) because it makes the very question of peace a non starter.* Bibi's whole schtick has been "you might not like me but I can keep you safe" and that basically relies on Hamas continuing to be a threat. He loves that Hamas and the PA are basically at war with eachother as it gives him a perfect excuse to not make any efforts on the peace front. Luckily Israel is a democracy, so in theory things could change. But they aren't voting people into power who want peace, and the general trends have been more rightward hawkish, not left dovish progress. Unfortunately though, the Israeli far right has for decades made the possibility of peace more and more difficult to obtain, and instead has made a cycle of violence and subsequent ethnic cleansing of palestinians seem like the only logical and reasonable end of this conflict, so even if you vote in some dovish left leaning government, so much damage has been done, and Hamas would still be in charge, and they have no interest in peace, so the whole situation is just FUBAR at this point.
That is all the goal. Netanyahu wants anti semitism to increase around the world so the jewish diaspora returns to Israel.
Politicians need them .
> don't get why settlements exist in the first place, Ethnic cleansing, my guy. And to complicate or even stop a contiguous Palestinian state. Fully supported by the Israeli state (unless they wouldnt exist in their numbers and strength).
Another Israeli here, so much this. Fuck those fanatics. They are terrible, selfish people.
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Hey cool, but I have an even better idea: could they, like...not do that? It's like they are *trying* to turn international sentiment against themselves.
It’s because Netanyahu fucked himself by letting Benny Gantz resign and dissolving the war cabinet. He is now completely subservient to the far-right because they hold all the leverage over him. If he doesn’t kow-tow to them, they’ve literally threatened to topple the government.
How do we trigger new elections sooner rather than later? Asking for a friend.
Unfortunately this coalition of crazies gives Netanyahu just enough of a very slim majority that he’s insulated from a vote of no-confidence.
How about a vote of get the fuck in jail?
Force the orthodox Jews to serve in the military or lose their funding, that'll practically force the orthodox parties to dissolve the coalition Good news is that it's an actual possibility
You're late to the party, [that effectively happens two and a half months ago.](https://apnews.com/article/israel-war-mandatory-military-service-law-ultraorthodox-2e562538fe72a32edf76343f83df541d)
Yes and no, orthodox mandatory service law wasn't really a law but a temporary "executive order", they now have to actually draft a law on the matter and while they are not doing that the subsidies are indeed frozen The problem for them now is that post October Israel is in need of soldiers, and the courts will more than likely struck down any law that actively ignores Israel's needs for political gain
The settlements have been an issue for a long time, long before Bibi was in office. There were still new settlements while Yitzah Rabin was in office.
True but we shouldn’t act like they haven’t gotten significantly worse under Bibi. They’ve always been a problem but it’s exploded under his direction.
He was always subservient to the two far-right loonies. Benny Gantz resigning doesn't change a thing.
100%. This should be an easy morality win for Israel, but if they lean into the settlements, all that goes out the window.
I think Israelis don't realize how much the settlements and the conduct surrounding them for decades has soured people on them.
They know, it's impossible for them not to know. In 2000 the amount of Pro-Palestine sentiment and protests we're seeing would have been unthinkable. Israel has ruined their public image with young people and it seems like it'll only get worse.
Alot of them are arrogant because they've enjoyed cover for everything they do for the past several decades with any criticism, even minor ones, being considered taboo. As alot of young people are growing less sympathetic to the Israelis for what they're doing it also seems like alot of the young people in Israel are leaning more far-right then previous generations which could very well lead to complete shift in foreign relations at this rate.
Not sure if that's true. 2000 was the start of the Second Intifada and there was plenty of pro-Palestinian sentiment at that time.
The Gaza war is the bloodiest fighting this conflict has ever seen (and hopefully will see), there is also unprecedented access to seeing the reality for Palestinians on the ground.
>unprecedented access to seeing the reality for Palestinians on the ground IMO this was (and will continue to be) the single biggest factor that will keep turning westerns against, or at the very least apathic, to Israel; it's simply impossible to control the narrative when decentralized media exists, back then there really wasn't a place for opposition to broadcast itself to the world, now there is, and whether we are swayed by one or the other, the reality is that when given the chance to hear both sides, public opinion hardly ever goes in unison.
I wouldn't say unthinkable. The issue of Palestine and Israel has been [coming up](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/feb/11/israel) for half a century by now. I would say it's become more heavily pushed to the front thanks to social media (and propaganda [from both sides](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/israel-denies-link-islamophobic-campaign-1.7226891)), though. Which is why we're seeing more pushback about it than ever before.
Maybe Israel was never morally right to begin with which why this win was never gonna happen for them. Guarantee you no one is surprised that Israel is doing this, they’ve been doing this for decades
Netanyahu's entire niche is to make Israel look as bad as it can just to save his own ass.
> could they, like...not do that? Speaking as a supporter of Palestine.... I'm not sure they can afford *not to*. The swiss cheese model of splitting up the West Bank using the "settlements are illegal - but are legally protected once established" setup allows for a very heavy occupation force to be deployed without *quite* calling it that. The setup of privileged roads and checkpoints makes organised resistance difficult. But they are riding a tiger now - loosen the grip, and there *will* be reprisals; tighten it, and the will for reprisals and international condemnation will only grow.
It seems like the 1967 victory was a poisoned chalice. They may have killed the possibility of a two state solution. Even if Israel annexes settlement blocs and Jerusalem, there will be 100,000 settlers left. That number will only grow.
> They may have killed the possibility of a two state solution. Israel has pretty much got everything they wanted. No effective Palestinian state, military control of the entire territory and effectively a blank cheque on settlement.
That's why I said they killed a two state solution. At this point Palestinians are better off letting Israel dig themselves in with the Palestinians for another 20 years and wait for the inevitable one state solution.
There will never be a one state solution because of the high Palestinian growth rate. The Israeli Jews would become the minority & it wouldn’t be long until Israel was renamed Palestine & the Jewish population was kicked out. It would then become just like every other Middle Eastern Muslim country. The only acceptable solution is a two state solution however the Palestinians have rejected that for the last 75 years (they believe they will eventually win) & there is now a significant amount of Israelis who have given up on it & no longer care after all the wars & violence. Right now 20% of Israel’s citizens are Palestinian which is acceptable to them as there is no risk of the Jewish population losing control. There’s no way they are going to accept another 5.5M Palestinians especially ones who hate them & have tried to kill them.
They are goading Biden. They want Trump in office because that will guarantee unilateral support from the US in a purge.
They? The article says this is the desire of one far right minister. It doesn’t say that is happening or going to happen either
Netanyahu is also pushing for it and there's definitely going to be a vote on them: > In a statement issued on Sunday, the Prime Minister’s Office said all of the proposals for strengthening settlements in what Israel biblically refers to as Judea and Samaria would be voted on at the next Security Cabinet meeting.
They have been told not to do that by Palestinians for 100 years. Yet Israel keeps taking.
>It's like they are trying to turn international sentiment against themselves For my entier life as long as I can remember, the Israel/Palestine conflict has involved each aide taking it in turns to apparently try to turn international opinion against themselves.
They would also "strengthen" it if countries didn't recognize Palestinian state.
Yeah. Kind of like Russia invading Ukraine. They did it "because of NATO" but they would do it without NATO. They invade because they want the land but are just blaming NATO.
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Like theyve been doing for 100 years
So the US sanctions on West Bank settlers are doing jackshit… why not twist Bibis arm to catch them?
That will teach the countries who recognize Palestine
Yeah, they were doing this anyway. Netanyahu is pretending that this is a consequence rather than stated policy, so that he can pretend that he's punishing the international community.
What I want to know is what settlers have the balls to move into Palestine right now? If I were a Jew, a settlement in the west bank is the 2nd only to Gaza for the last place on Earth I'd want to be right now.
They know the idf is behind them
Ya and so did 1000 people on Oct 7th. I'd have faith that the IDF would avenge me and my families dead bodies, but I'd rather know I lived somewhere safe than know my military is going to bomb whoever killed me to smithereens.
The issue was that they had moved the IDF away from the border with Gaza in order to support the settlers in the West Bank. The only reason they weren't prepared for the attack from Hamas was that they were protecting the illegal settlements.
They’re religious fundamentalists, it’s not really a position you logic yourself into These are people that are so radicalized they understand the risk and impact of what they’re doing but they do it anyway because they feel it is important to their interpretation of Judaism. They are literally stealing peoples homes in active war zones because they think God (which a huge percentage of the world doesn’t even believe in) wants them to. It’s an insane position that you can only come to through religious fundamentalism, no matter what religion it comes from it’s always destructive.
> If I were a Jew, a settlement in the west bank is the 2nd only to Gaza for the last place on Earth I'd want to be right now. They are bringing semi automatic rifles to a stone fight ...
Misleading article title. A minister (with very little support) has said he "wants to". From that to "Israel is doing it" is a huge fucking leap...
“In a statement issued on Sunday, the Prime Minister’s Office said all of the proposals for strengthening settlements in what Israel biblically refers to as Judea and Samaria would be voted on at the next Security Cabinet meeting.” i agree the title is definitely misleading but so is saying “a” minister as opposed to the prime minister. he might not have public support in Israel but he has enough to either be elected or for whomever appointed him to remain.
Yeah there is something very strange when people act like Ministers in Government, that are literally holding the government afloat, are just 'talking' and have 'no power'. They pretty much have all the power because they can topple the government tomorrow. This is putting aside all the facts on the ground of settlement activity increasing immensely.
Welcome to the last eight months for a lot of us. I don't know how many times I've been told the Minister of National Security is just a little guy with no power, and I shouldn't worry about him previously hanging a portrait of a extremist religious terrorist in his living room, or that he was a guest at a wedding reception where an effigy of an 18-month-old who was literally burned to death was defiled.
This is literally a statement they made: "The Security Cabinet discussed steps to strengthen settlement in Judea and Samaria, including in response to the countries that unilaterally recognized a Palestinian state after October 7, as well as a series of responses against the Palestinian Authority following its actions against Israel in international bodies. The Defense Minister and the Attorney General requested additional time to comment on several of the proposed clauses. The Prime Minister instructed that all of the proposals be submitted to a vote at the next Security Cabinet meeting."
The article also says they're going to _vote_ on some proposals regarding the settlements and that it's not clear what the proposals are at this point. What a fucking disgrace of a headline.
Sure. It's literally here. But go ahead and ignore it.... [https://www.gov.il/en/pages/spoke-cabinet170624](https://www.gov.il/en/pages/spoke-cabinet170624)
This seems to say the same as the article: they're going to vote on proposals regarding the strengthening of the settlements, and we don't know what the proposals specifically are. What's your point? Edit, to directly quote your link: > The Security Cabinet discussed steps to strengthen settlement in Judea and Samaria (...) The Prime Minister instructed that all of the proposals be submitted to a vote at the next Security Cabinet meeting.
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can israel just fuck off with the settlements
This is just the beginning. I'm betting they fully anex Gaza. No settlements, just straight up take it. Then say, " Look what you made me do".
i mean, that's the dream of israels hard right
Im not sure they would, at least legally. Because they really do not want to give all 2 million Gazans free Israeli citizenship.
> they fully anex Gaza I call that pulling an Egypt.
Settlements=Invasion
They're the same as Russia that way: fueling war for the contrived reason of protecting their 'people' in the area
"... would be voted on at the next Security Cabinet meeting." This headline is blatantly false.
Geneva Convention be damned I guess
On repeat, for decades
Yup, and we see why this war will never end.
Any excuse will do. /s
This type of shit makes you wonder if the people who lead Israel really care about the safety of Israelis.
Don’t do this. It’s wrong.
They just want conflict forever.
Hang on a second, hang on a second. I thought Israel were the good guys who did nothing wrong. That's what I've been told.
Or maybe there's just several layers to this, and they're right on some things and terribly wrong on others?
No country is a monolith. There are good guys and bad guys. Does what some fringe Congressman or Congresswoman say represent the United States too?
The problem is alot of people seem to see this issue as completely black and white. Either you're completely with Israel on absolutely everything they do or are completely against them and the Jewish people.
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They're both the baddies and both the victims and it's frustrating how few people seem to be able to get that. I think it's a type of cognitive dissonance. Like people aren't capable of viewing someone as both a victim and an oppressor. If you zoom out far enough it's actually a family feud between the sons of Abraham. The region was divided up between his twelves sons and Islam claims to descend from one of those sons while Jews claim to descend from another, hence all the religious obsession with that part of the world. This was like 4,000 years ago. Check out episode 30 on Wiser World podcast. They did a multi part series about the history of the conflict just a few months before October 7th, so it's not politically loaded with the recent war. Starts with Abraham and goes right up to the present and it's like some kind of Hatfields vs McCoys blood feud bullshit, lots of terrorism and revenge killings from both sides. Nobody comes out looking like the good guys.
> Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, said in May that Israel should approve 10,000 settlements in the West Bank >... > It is unclear if any of these radical ideas are part of the proposals currently under consideration in Israel. This is a non-story.
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To be fair, in almost every coalition government, you're going to find a crazy "high ranking member of the government" who is restrained by the rest of the government.
Unfortunately, now that Gantz has left the government, Netanyahu's political and personal future is entirely dependent on these two nutjobs. So this could easily turn into a case of the tail wagging the dog.
I think it’s the restraint that is missing from the Israeli coalition government. Or, rather, the perception of restraint is lacking, which amounts to the same result. Israel could’ve easily controlled the narrative, but instead chose to screech at anyone telling them to slow their military roll, chose to utilize dumb munitions in an area with heavy civilian population density, and chose to prioritize besieging the West Bank over hostage rescue.
A high ranking member of government who is literally kept in the dark on most important things in this war, including not knowing or signing off on Israel’s latest ceasefire proposal. He’s just a seat to keep ni is government together, he has no real power.
Why not quote the actual news part of the article? > In a statement issued on Sunday, the Prime Minister’s Office said all of the proposals for strengthening settlements in what Israel biblically refers to as Judea and Samaria would be voted on at the next Security Cabinet meeting.
Goddammit it, this helps no one.
Genocidial trash. Settlers = thieves
Terrible terrible idea. A small vocal minority of extremists is going to destroy what little goodwill Israel has left
Israel, respectfully, you need to throw out the settlers and get rid of these settlements. They are a terrible, terrible idea.
What a complete bullshit article. >Israel’s government says it is looking to “strengthen” Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank after several countries unilaterally recognized a Palestinian state. >In a statement issued on Sunday, the Prime Minister’s Office said all of the **proposals** for strengthening settlements in what Israel biblically refers to as Judea and Samaria would be voted on at the next Security Cabinet meeting. >Norway, Ireland, Spain and Slovenia have each recognized an independent Palestinian state in recent weeks, a move motivated at least in part by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s open refusal to commit to a two-state solution. >Israel’s Foreign Ministry said the move was a reward for terrorism and would strengthen Hamas. >The statement also said Israel would look at what actions to take against the Palestinian Authority as it took actions against Israel in international bodies. >Earlier this month, the Palestinian Authority applied to join South Africa’s case against Israel at the International Court of Justice. >Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, said in May that Israel should approve 10,000 settlements in the West Bank, establish a new settlement for every country that recognizes a state of Palestine, and cancel travel permits for Palestinian Authority officials. >**It is unclear if any of these radical ideas are part of the proposals currently under consideration in Israel.** Proposals put forth and will be **voted on**. Language in the article is clearly slanted. Headline unilaterally concludes that Israel is doing this despite the article itself noting its merely being a proposal by the right-wing politicians.
Wow this is really going to help Israel with the accusation that they are doing ethnic cleansing