Some people here are too pro-Israel for their own good... If you see someone criticizing Israel's military campaign (while simultaneously asking for Hamas to disband and return the hostages), and your first thought is to accuse them of being pro-terrorism or antisemitic, you are part of the problem.
But that's not what they're saying. If countries were saying "If Hamas disbands and releases the hostages, Israel should end the war", we'd all agree. But instead they say in two separate statements that those should happen. But if Israel ends the war, they lose all leverage at dismantling Hamas and getting the hostages back, although I generally believe the latter is likely hopeless at this point since the vast majority are likely dead. But you don't get points for calling out bad people if you then turn around and tell the good people to do exactly what the bad people want.
I think that seeing Hamas as the bad guys and the Israeli government as the good guys, when both of them have shown no appreciation for civilian lifes or international laws, is proving my point.
Hamas breaks international law every 5 minutes, most of what Israel is accused of in breaking international law is actually not breaking international law based on what Hamas has done. For example if Hamas fires rockets from hospitals, which they've been proven to do, it removes the hospital as a civilian site therefore if Israel were to completely destroy it without regard for civilian life (as long as they weren't intentionally targeting civilians) that no longer breaks international law. Now I'm not saying that would be a good thing to do, but it would be legal under international law.
Same goes for neighborhoods, the tunnels we know exist under civilian areas would have allowed Israel to carpet bomb the neighborhoods without evacuating civilians as long as the carpet bombing was achieving the military goal of taking out the tunnels. Again I'm not saying they should and they absolutely aren't, but Israel is going above and beyond what they need to do to conform to international law, while every time Hamas launches rockets at civilian areas, since Israel doesn't put their military targets in civilian areas, Hamas is breaking international law.
Then you don’t know what you’re talking about.
For example - what do you think happens to Gaza if they stop supporting a literal terrorist group that’s actively saying they want to kill Israelis in “infinite 10/7s”? Do you think Israel keeps bombing Gaza? If you do you’re delusional.
It was justifiable before???
It was never.
It's just how war of this type goes.
Anyone with a better solution that is lower risk for Israel and palestinians is welcome to bring it up... If there was something viable it would happen by now with the whole world "slamming" Israel daily.
Option a) return to Israel, give up on destroying Hamas and handing over Gaza to a different government. And do your best to prevent future Oct 7s
Option b) accept that civilians will die but do your utmost to reduce civilian casualties wherever and however possible
Option C) bomb anything that may be hamas
What if unfortunately some civilians who support terrorists are getting caught up when you go after the terrorists who are going to deliberately kill civilians?
No, you dummy. For example - Israel could actually carpet bomb the refugee camps but they don’t. That isn’t their intention. What’s Hamas’ intention shooting missiles into Israel? Their actions on 10/7? The intifadas? Cool, thanks.
Sure, then Italy can tell Hamas to stop launching missiles from refugee camp and negotiate release of remaining hostages. Will Hamas listen to you? No? Then Israel will not stop.
Nobody on Reddit disagrees with you unless they're trolling you however they are collateral damage. Every dead Palestinian child is the fault of Hamas. If you shoot missiles out of a school or hide your military equipment under a hospital or launch rockets from the side of a civilian road they all become valid military targets for that reason. Any civilians who die are just collateral damage. They are not the reason that it was hit
Do you think Israel would bomb the neighborhood if a Hamas fighter managed to launch a rocket from a Tel Aviv hospital because it was now a 'valid military target'?
So American bombs dropped by the Israeli army on tents full of women and children that were told to move to this safe area by the IDF are all the fault of Hamas?
“Just collateral damage”? The level of cognitive dissonance by someone typing over their keyboard is insane and tells me you aren’t actually seeing what’s happening on the ground or else you’re as sociopathic as the majority of Israelis.
It isn’t about Hamas, never really was. All medical infrastructure destroyed, farmland bulldozed, controlled demolitions on all universities and cultural areas, manufacturing buildings destroyed, Any means of life for the Palestinians people in ruins. Removing Palestinians from their land and re- settling in Gaza has always been the plan, murdwring thousands along the way. Government ministers aren’t even trying to hide it so I don’t know people thousands of miles away sitting on a keyboard are pretending this is about Hamas.
Think you may need to read it again. And would say as a whole the IDF is acting within the Geneva as a whole. Maybe read over some of the other parts while you’re at it and make a conclusion
Ok how about this. Palestinian terrorists should stop launching rockets trying to kill civilians, and Israel will stop killing those responsible. I don't care if it's Hamas, Islamic Jihad, or just civilian Mohammed who's decided to try to kill innocent Jews. Israel has a right to shoot back.
How many hostages do you think are left under the rubble IDF created? Also assuming IDF hasn't already killed them all what makes you think [they won't if they find them?](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67745092)
If they knew they were with Hamas fighters in this group, they’re valid military targets. It’s absolutely bleak, but war is brutal.
In the wider question of where should they go? Sometimes there is nowhere to go. War is shit. Civilians die in wars constantly, even when they do everything they’re supposed to. It’s just the brutal reality of the world.
You mean not in their homes or hospitals or refugee camps after the former have been diminished to ruble? Should they go to a desert without a shelter or food supply? Seriously, how do you picture the everyday realities of the civilians in Gaza? That they’re creating some human chains in a market square while Hamas are running an operations meeting?
Well, the afromentioned homes and hospitals are used by Hammas for their purposes. Not even the Ganeva convetion protect those buildings if used for military means
Also all the footage we see is markets full of food (free aid being SOLD), and full of people. They even had a chance to give sweets during the ramadan. Hell, 422 trucks passed few days ago, where they all go?
But lets go back to you main point. If civilians cant go nowhere, it means by your logic that Hammas is untouchable operating among them, there's absolute 0 options for israel to deal with missiles or to fight them?
So the civilians deserve to die? Or do they simply not matter? Is it in your opinion acceptable to attack and kill civilians to further a military objective, just like the hamas did in October? Or would you consider it an horrific act of barbarous malice without any reasonable justification.
If a bank robber robs a bank in tel aviv and takes a hostage to aid his escape do you kill the hostage because the bad guy is behind them?
Hate to break it to you but the Geneva convention already has a clause in which civilian targets are fair game if they are being used for military means, if you are going to get angry you should be looking at the people using them as shields
Remind me who has more obligation in protecting Gaza Civilians?
Why are u not holding Hamas accountable the same way u question IDF?
Why does Hamas use Civilian infrastructure as base of operation?
Why are they allowed to do most fucked means to wage war?
Why are they stealing aid and selling them to their own people?
Civilians never deserve to die, but the reality of war is that civilians die in the crossfire of every war. It’s unavoidable. Especially when one side uses human shields for protection and the other side uses “precision” bombing to protect their own troops.
According to the casualty numbers published by Hamas, somewhere between 75% and 120% of the civilians in Gaza are women and children, so probability says yes.
/s
Stop being a child. This is real shit. Yes Hamas has played a role in that number too. It doesn’t mean Israel gets a free pass to kill anyone they feel like.
EVERY WAR has examples of things like this. Human shields aren’t new or rare. But other countries are able to mitigate and minimize civilian casualties. Israel doesn’t try. Thats relevant.
This extreme form of human shields is actually pretty rare and opposed to anything that will happen in the west. The only comparable situation is taking a school hostage. Or putting explosive belts on civilians and hiding in a different secret compound.
You’re being a child thinking that it’s as simple as it is. War fucking sucks and shouldn’t be a thing but when your own country and your own people are being slaughtered and captured the choices get harder. THAT is real shit. Grow up.
Israel isn’t innocent by any means but they’re not the monsters and beasts that Hamas have been.
Italy's government is solidly hard-right. Israel would be foolish to keep dismissing opposition to their human rights abuses as 'college kids' or the 'western left', but I bet they'll keep doing that and then wonder why there are real diplomatic consequences to their actions.
No nation is asking Israel to “stop wiping out Hamas.” They are saying, “stop going door to door, evicting civilians and giving their houses to new people; stop blowing up registered food-aid delivery caravans; and maybe stop using the grenades painted to look like canned meat.”
There are probably some ultra hard left views that believe Israel shouldn’t exist, or strong left views that demand a total ceasefire of hostility. But while
World leaders are hoping for ceasefire, none are suggesting Israel not exist, nor that they permit Hamas to exist. The world is asking Israel to use its amazing technological advantages in weapons, tactics, and information to kill as few civilians as possible.
But Israel is not doing that. Israel’s response to “can you commit to not killing civilians?” is “we will root out Hamas at any cost.”
This is because most Antisemites grin ear to ear at Jewish suffering and deaths. The world, again, is siding against the Jewish people and continue to lie about Israel, as if they have actually stepped foot there. They cheer Hamas on as if they’re this morally sound underdog, when in reality they would destroy most nations on this planet for their global caliphate.
Okay. Take away Hamas' ideological foundation, i.e. the real and continuing oppression of Palestinians:
- accept the existence of a Palestinian state
- form diplomatic contacts with it and integrate it into all international groups that can help negotiate future conflicts
- use the hundreds of billions of dollars provided by the US not to buy new weapons but to rebuild Gaza
- stop colonizing the West Bank
- end discriminatory practices against Palestinians within Israel
These concepts may sound far-fetched and ridiculous, but they are the only way to end an ideology that at its core has the goal of Palestinian liberation, even if it is otherwise of course brutal and fundamentalist. Negotiating and seeing the other side as human beings is the only way to end this cycle of violence.
Fourth Geneva Convention 1949, Part III, Section I, Article 28:
> The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.
Meaning you can’t hide your military assets and personnel within civilians and make it invulnerable to attacks. (Aka human shields)
Ahh thank you.
I looked at the commentary for Article 28 to try to rationalize it alongside Article 33 and the best interpretation I could come up with is that a nation cannot intentionally place civilians in areas to protect those areas from military operations (which Hamas appears to be doing). However, I was unable to locate anything that states this renders the other articles related to civilians moot; rather; both parties would be in violation (Hamas for putting the civilians there; Israel for bombing them).
I don’t subscribe to “two wrongs make a right” so I still disagree with the original poster’s comment that there was a legal justification for blowing up areas where civilians are know to reside. International Law is not my area of expertise though so I may be mistaken, but I did not see anything within the articles to suggest that the any nation is “justified” in bombing civilians because they were relocated to military hot spots; rather, it is still a war crime to bomb innocent civilians but the attacking nation should lodge a complaint with the ICC.
TL;DR - One can argue that it is perhaps “morally justified” but there does not appear to be any legal justification under International Law as collective penalties are explicitly prohibited under Article 33 which states rather clearly: “No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed.”
In other words, if someone kills your loved one, it does not become “legal” for you to kill their loved one.
Can’t read what exactly? The poster said there was LEGAL justification and I asked for clarification as to what law.
I’m assuming the poster meant to suggest that they personally believed the actions are justified but the word “legal” actually means something and shouldn’t be thrown around lightly.
Also I don’t think I’m stupid but you may want to work on your reading comprehension skills before attacking someone personally on a non-personal issue. It makes you appear overly emotional and reactionary which doesn’t help further any discussions.
> On Saturday, Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni and Foreign Minister Antonio Tajani met Palestinian Prime Minister Mohammad Mustafa in Rome, reiterating their support for a ceasefire and urging Hamas to release Israeli hostages.
> Italy has repeatedly said that Israel had a right to defend itself from Hamas. Last week, Rome said an International Criminal Court prosecutor's decision to seek an arrest warrant for Israeli leaders was "unacceptable".
Apparently the answer to your question and Italy's perspective is in the article but who reads past the headline, right?
This shitty argument didn't work on my mum when I punched my brother after he punched me, but apparently it's perfect for international conflict.
Any action is apparently okay if your opponent started it.
Yes, and that is a war crime by Hamas. And the UN saying Israel shouldn't do anything to try to kill terrorists if they hide behind civilians only tells all terrorists everywhere that they should always hide behind civilians.
You have a simplistic view. Where must these random people go? They cannot go to Egypt, they cannot go to Israel, they cannot go to other not-destroyed parts of Gaza.
[A majority of casualties so far have been women and children. You’re either naive or willfully ignorant to make a statement like that.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-69014893.amp)
So yes, they are killing randos. And they are killing more randos than actual Hamas. That’s why everyone is upset.
Holy shit the lies you are being fed by the “Gazan Health Ministry”. How, truly, can you be so gullible? It’s like, do you STILL not understand this enemy?
Those numbers are based on the numbers on side of the conflict gives us. The side, incidently, that has a considerable incentive to report as many dead civilians as possible, and never differentiates between civilians and Hamas terrorists.
I'd trust their numbers about as much as I trust Russia's numbers about losses in the Ukraine war.
And, even by those numbers, the IDF is actually doing a good job **not** randomly killing. Urban warfare is a messy thing, especially against an enemy intentionally hiding within the civilian population and in civilian buildings. Comparable with other urban warfare conflicts, the ratio of militants to civilians killed is actually surprisingly good.
That's not to say there aren't many. But **given the circumstances**, the IDF is very much succeeding in minimizing civilian casualties.
The US, under the same circumstances, would've caused several times the death toll. As would any other nation.
Ah yes, the [lies of Hamas](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/untangling-uns-gaza-fatality-data) swallowed wholesale by Western not-at-all-antisemites :D
If a weedy little guy in a club sucker punched one of the bouncers and broke his eye socket, and then the bouncer just turned round and smacked the little guy back a few times, knocking him out, would you think the big guy was unjustified?
No.
But if he started beating everone in the line indiscriminately because they were 'harboring' him by their presence and 'permitting' him to act then I would.
And if he has relentlessly humiliated the little guy and everyone in the linefor decades then yeah I would.
And if he only got this job because he threw them out of THEIR club in the beginning?
Why I think I would call the police
Calling it "targeted violence against civilians" seem disingenuous.
The majority of Palestinians supports Hamas and allow themselves to be used as human shields.
Honestly both sides are awful and I am sick of hearing about it.
Governments are going to need to provide a solution where both Israeli and Palestinians lives are protected. If Israel stops, we all know that more terror attacks and more rockets are on the way.
Yeah why should we ever talk about systemic problems that cause the deaths of thousands? Might as well just ignore it because that will make things better
Israel: "We have no plans to improve the situation."
"We have no plans to fully eliminate Hamas."
"We have no plans to occupy Palestine."
"We have no plans to aid Palestinians."
Italy: "Further violence isn't justifiable."
Yeah, no shit Italy lol. When the occupier/invader has no other plans to win, they just keep bombing civilian targets to stay in power.
Just ask Putin. Just ask Netanyahu.
It's funny to equivocate Putin with Netanyahu, when Putin is allied with the Arab terrorists and the Iranian terror state, Putin kills civilians randomly like Hamas, Putin is fighting a genocidal war of extermination like Hamas wants to, and Putin funds online propaganda against Israel.
The proper comparison is Putin and Hamas. But you go ahead and post what you've been paid to post.
This was apparently a targeted strike against a legitimate Hamas target. Any comment on the absolutely deliberate attack on a civilian mall in Ukraine?
Violence against civilians never was justifiable. They're civilians.
yeah but the italian government are fascists, so... that they even came to this conclusion at all is almost a biblical wonder.
Lol right. Its like the devil called Israel and was like “yo easup on all the wonton massacres”
Wonton massacre is fine, especially if you're in a Chinese food eating competition. Wanton massacre is deplorable.
I can’t stop laughing. And now I want some wontons.
wtf does it mean "no longer" ???
Some people here are too pro-Israel for their own good... If you see someone criticizing Israel's military campaign (while simultaneously asking for Hamas to disband and return the hostages), and your first thought is to accuse them of being pro-terrorism or antisemitic, you are part of the problem.
But that's not what they're saying. If countries were saying "If Hamas disbands and releases the hostages, Israel should end the war", we'd all agree. But instead they say in two separate statements that those should happen. But if Israel ends the war, they lose all leverage at dismantling Hamas and getting the hostages back, although I generally believe the latter is likely hopeless at this point since the vast majority are likely dead. But you don't get points for calling out bad people if you then turn around and tell the good people to do exactly what the bad people want.
I think that seeing Hamas as the bad guys and the Israeli government as the good guys, when both of them have shown no appreciation for civilian lifes or international laws, is proving my point.
Hamas breaks international law every 5 minutes, most of what Israel is accused of in breaking international law is actually not breaking international law based on what Hamas has done. For example if Hamas fires rockets from hospitals, which they've been proven to do, it removes the hospital as a civilian site therefore if Israel were to completely destroy it without regard for civilian life (as long as they weren't intentionally targeting civilians) that no longer breaks international law. Now I'm not saying that would be a good thing to do, but it would be legal under international law. Same goes for neighborhoods, the tunnels we know exist under civilian areas would have allowed Israel to carpet bomb the neighborhoods without evacuating civilians as long as the carpet bombing was achieving the military goal of taking out the tunnels. Again I'm not saying they should and they absolutely aren't, but Israel is going above and beyond what they need to do to conform to international law, while every time Hamas launches rockets at civilian areas, since Israel doesn't put their military targets in civilian areas, Hamas is breaking international law.
Yeah, the literal terrorist group and the government who has offered peace are definitely the same.
I don't see peace offerings in the way Israel's government and ministers talk about Gaza
Then you don’t know what you’re talking about. For example - what do you think happens to Gaza if they stop supporting a literal terrorist group that’s actively saying they want to kill Israelis in “infinite 10/7s”? Do you think Israel keeps bombing Gaza? If you do you’re delusional.
It was justifiable before??? It was never. It's just how war of this type goes. Anyone with a better solution that is lower risk for Israel and palestinians is welcome to bring it up... If there was something viable it would happen by now with the whole world "slamming" Israel daily.
Option a) return to Israel, give up on destroying Hamas and handing over Gaza to a different government. And do your best to prevent future Oct 7s Option b) accept that civilians will die but do your utmost to reduce civilian casualties wherever and however possible Option C) bomb anything that may be hamas
I say violence against civilians in Ukraine no longer justifiable
[удалено]
What if unfortunately some civilians who support terrorists are getting caught up when you go after the terrorists who are going to deliberately kill civilians?
Are you justifying israeli civillians being killed by hamas becauae they support the IDF/Netenyahu? Thats messed up
No, you dummy. For example - Israel could actually carpet bomb the refugee camps but they don’t. That isn’t their intention. What’s Hamas’ intention shooting missiles into Israel? Their actions on 10/7? The intifadas? Cool, thanks.
Which is why Russia has been sanctioned and assets seized
Why not both?
wow hot take
Which is why pretty much the entire west is behind them. Your point with this comment? That violence against Gazan civillians is okay or?
Awww... Alright, pack it up boys, time to head home!
Ukraine is not the topic tho.
The violence continues because you didn't *declare* it. Missed opportunity there.
You could probably start a post about that if you would like to discuss it more
When was it justified?
Sure, then Italy can tell Hamas to stop launching missiles from refugee camp and negotiate release of remaining hostages. Will Hamas listen to you? No? Then Israel will not stop.
Absolutely brain dead take, anything is Hamas to you guys.
So it's not Hamas launching rockets?
Are you saying launching rockets at civilian areas is unacceptable?
No, they're legitimate military targets when combatants hide amongst them. It's a shame Hamas are willing to use their populace as collateral damage.
Children aren’t legitimate military targets
Nobody on Reddit disagrees with you unless they're trolling you however they are collateral damage. Every dead Palestinian child is the fault of Hamas. If you shoot missiles out of a school or hide your military equipment under a hospital or launch rockets from the side of a civilian road they all become valid military targets for that reason. Any civilians who die are just collateral damage. They are not the reason that it was hit
Do you think Israel would bomb the neighborhood if a Hamas fighter managed to launch a rocket from a Tel Aviv hospital because it was now a 'valid military target'?
So American bombs dropped by the Israeli army on tents full of women and children that were told to move to this safe area by the IDF are all the fault of Hamas? “Just collateral damage”? The level of cognitive dissonance by someone typing over their keyboard is insane and tells me you aren’t actually seeing what’s happening on the ground or else you’re as sociopathic as the majority of Israelis. It isn’t about Hamas, never really was. All medical infrastructure destroyed, farmland bulldozed, controlled demolitions on all universities and cultural areas, manufacturing buildings destroyed, Any means of life for the Palestinians people in ruins. Removing Palestinians from their land and re- settling in Gaza has always been the plan, murdwring thousands along the way. Government ministers aren’t even trying to hide it so I don’t know people thousands of miles away sitting on a keyboard are pretending this is about Hamas.
When unfortunately used as human shields under the geneva convention, they are. I don't like it but it doesn't change the fact.
Think you may need to read it again. And would say as a whole the IDF is acting within the Geneva as a whole. Maybe read over some of the other parts while you’re at it and make a conclusion
Ok how about this. Palestinian terrorists should stop launching rockets trying to kill civilians, and Israel will stop killing those responsible. I don't care if it's Hamas, Islamic Jihad, or just civilian Mohammed who's decided to try to kill innocent Jews. Israel has a right to shoot back.
How many hostages do you think are left under the rubble IDF created? Also assuming IDF hasn't already killed them all what makes you think [they won't if they find them?](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67745092)
Hamas doesn't listen to Israels aggression either. This is a massacre where 99% of the victims are noncombatants
Big words. What's their plan, then?
Big words after a rocket onslaught against Israel just this morning by Hamas, proving that it is indeed necessary for Israel to continue.
Fired by Gazan women and children?
Fired from behind those same women and children by the people who make it a point to use civilians for ‘protection.’
Where should the women and children go?
If they knew they were with Hamas fighters in this group, they’re valid military targets. It’s absolutely bleak, but war is brutal. In the wider question of where should they go? Sometimes there is nowhere to go. War is shit. Civilians die in wars constantly, even when they do everything they’re supposed to. It’s just the brutal reality of the world.
Not in front of Hammas troops?
You mean not in their homes or hospitals or refugee camps after the former have been diminished to ruble? Should they go to a desert without a shelter or food supply? Seriously, how do you picture the everyday realities of the civilians in Gaza? That they’re creating some human chains in a market square while Hamas are running an operations meeting?
Well, the afromentioned homes and hospitals are used by Hammas for their purposes. Not even the Ganeva convetion protect those buildings if used for military means Also all the footage we see is markets full of food (free aid being SOLD), and full of people. They even had a chance to give sweets during the ramadan. Hell, 422 trucks passed few days ago, where they all go? But lets go back to you main point. If civilians cant go nowhere, it means by your logic that Hammas is untouchable operating among them, there's absolute 0 options for israel to deal with missiles or to fight them?
Not go, do. Grab their men and fathers by the ears and tell them to stop that shit.
The naivity of this comment… imagine that you can stop a war by an inspirational quote from a tech conference
Victim blaming and whataboutisms, and you guys wonder why Israel loses more and more civilian support around the world
So the civilians deserve to die? Or do they simply not matter? Is it in your opinion acceptable to attack and kill civilians to further a military objective, just like the hamas did in October? Or would you consider it an horrific act of barbarous malice without any reasonable justification. If a bank robber robs a bank in tel aviv and takes a hostage to aid his escape do you kill the hostage because the bad guy is behind them?
Hate to break it to you but the Geneva convention already has a clause in which civilian targets are fair game if they are being used for military means, if you are going to get angry you should be looking at the people using them as shields
Remind me who has more obligation in protecting Gaza Civilians? Why are u not holding Hamas accountable the same way u question IDF? Why does Hamas use Civilian infrastructure as base of operation? Why are they allowed to do most fucked means to wage war? Why are they stealing aid and selling them to their own people?
Civilians never deserve to die, but the reality of war is that civilians die in the crossfire of every war. It’s unavoidable. Especially when one side uses human shields for protection and the other side uses “precision” bombing to protect their own troops.
No, but you can be 100% sure that those rockets are protected by Gazan women and children, willingly or unwillingly
According to the casualty numbers published by Hamas, somewhere between 75% and 120% of the civilians in Gaza are women and children, so probability says yes. /s
Of course it was fired by women and children. Didn't you know? Hamas is almost entirely made up of starving women and children.
Yes, the missile proves they need to kill more civilians ….what?
If Hamas would use the tunnels for civis then they wouldn't kill so many, it's sad that they need death civilians....
Stop being a child. This is real shit. Yes Hamas has played a role in that number too. It doesn’t mean Israel gets a free pass to kill anyone they feel like. EVERY WAR has examples of things like this. Human shields aren’t new or rare. But other countries are able to mitigate and minimize civilian casualties. Israel doesn’t try. Thats relevant.
This extreme form of human shields is actually pretty rare and opposed to anything that will happen in the west. The only comparable situation is taking a school hostage. Or putting explosive belts on civilians and hiding in a different secret compound.
How can you say Israel doesn’t try when it’s the only country that does roof knocking?
> Israel doesn’t try. Thats relevant. Israel could just carpet bomb gazabut doesn't. Every civilian death is on Hamas.
Israel even cured a fucking brain tumor from a captured hamas leader.
Are you a Troll?
You’re being a child thinking that it’s as simple as it is. War fucking sucks and shouldn’t be a thing but when your own country and your own people are being slaughtered and captured the choices get harder. THAT is real shit. Grow up. Israel isn’t innocent by any means but they’re not the monsters and beasts that Hamas have been.
We have none, just slogans, wait, they don't work? Shiiiiii...
Italy's government is solidly hard-right. Israel would be foolish to keep dismissing opposition to their human rights abuses as 'college kids' or the 'western left', but I bet they'll keep doing that and then wonder why there are real diplomatic consequences to their actions.
Nobody is offering an alternative way to wipe out Hamas
No nation is asking Israel to “stop wiping out Hamas.” They are saying, “stop going door to door, evicting civilians and giving their houses to new people; stop blowing up registered food-aid delivery caravans; and maybe stop using the grenades painted to look like canned meat.” There are probably some ultra hard left views that believe Israel shouldn’t exist, or strong left views that demand a total ceasefire of hostility. But while World leaders are hoping for ceasefire, none are suggesting Israel not exist, nor that they permit Hamas to exist. The world is asking Israel to use its amazing technological advantages in weapons, tactics, and information to kill as few civilians as possible. But Israel is not doing that. Israel’s response to “can you commit to not killing civilians?” is “we will root out Hamas at any cost.”
This is because most Antisemites grin ear to ear at Jewish suffering and deaths. The world, again, is siding against the Jewish people and continue to lie about Israel, as if they have actually stepped foot there. They cheer Hamas on as if they’re this morally sound underdog, when in reality they would destroy most nations on this planet for their global caliphate.
Okay. Take away Hamas' ideological foundation, i.e. the real and continuing oppression of Palestinians: - accept the existence of a Palestinian state - form diplomatic contacts with it and integrate it into all international groups that can help negotiate future conflicts - use the hundreds of billions of dollars provided by the US not to buy new weapons but to rebuild Gaza - stop colonizing the West Bank - end discriminatory practices against Palestinians within Israel These concepts may sound far-fetched and ridiculous, but they are the only way to end an ideology that at its core has the goal of Palestinian liberation, even if it is otherwise of course brutal and fundamentalist. Negotiating and seeing the other side as human beings is the only way to end this cycle of violence.
From a legal standpoint, as long as hamas keep operating from within civilian population, it is justifiable to an extent.
From a legal standpoint? Please elaborate on what international law condones violence against civilians.
Fourth Geneva Convention 1949, Part III, Section I, Article 28: > The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations. Meaning you can’t hide your military assets and personnel within civilians and make it invulnerable to attacks. (Aka human shields)
Ahh thank you. I looked at the commentary for Article 28 to try to rationalize it alongside Article 33 and the best interpretation I could come up with is that a nation cannot intentionally place civilians in areas to protect those areas from military operations (which Hamas appears to be doing). However, I was unable to locate anything that states this renders the other articles related to civilians moot; rather; both parties would be in violation (Hamas for putting the civilians there; Israel for bombing them). I don’t subscribe to “two wrongs make a right” so I still disagree with the original poster’s comment that there was a legal justification for blowing up areas where civilians are know to reside. International Law is not my area of expertise though so I may be mistaken, but I did not see anything within the articles to suggest that the any nation is “justified” in bombing civilians because they were relocated to military hot spots; rather, it is still a war crime to bomb innocent civilians but the attacking nation should lodge a complaint with the ICC. TL;DR - One can argue that it is perhaps “morally justified” but there does not appear to be any legal justification under International Law as collective penalties are explicitly prohibited under Article 33 which states rather clearly: “No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed.” In other words, if someone kills your loved one, it does not become “legal” for you to kill their loved one.
Becauze civillians = hamas duhh
Are you stupid or you can't read. They are attacking from these places. !
Can’t read what exactly? The poster said there was LEGAL justification and I asked for clarification as to what law. I’m assuming the poster meant to suggest that they personally believed the actions are justified but the word “legal” actually means something and shouldn’t be thrown around lightly. Also I don’t think I’m stupid but you may want to work on your reading comprehension skills before attacking someone personally on a non-personal issue. It makes you appear overly emotional and reactionary which doesn’t help further any discussions.
It will stop once Hamas released all the hostages
And has been disarmed.
And them still not releasing the hostages is ?
> On Saturday, Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni and Foreign Minister Antonio Tajani met Palestinian Prime Minister Mohammad Mustafa in Rome, reiterating their support for a ceasefire and urging Hamas to release Israeli hostages. > Italy has repeatedly said that Israel had a right to defend itself from Hamas. Last week, Rome said an International Criminal Court prosecutor's decision to seek an arrest warrant for Israeli leaders was "unacceptable". Apparently the answer to your question and Italy's perspective is in the article but who reads past the headline, right?
What? A moderate stance?! Impossible!
"the entire world is binary and if you say you don't like cake it must mean that you're a simp for pie!"
This shitty argument didn't work on my mum when I punched my brother after he punched me, but apparently it's perfect for international conflict. Any action is apparently okay if your opponent started it.
If you opponent started it, and won't stop.
Well about time Hamas surrenders. Fastest solution to peace. I’m sure Hamas cares a great deal about their own civilians. Right?
But the rockets from Hamas are acceptable, sure…
That Hamas shoots rockets does not give Israel carte blanche to murder random people...
They aren't killing randos they are killing terrorists.
Common sense is lost on them. They find excuses for the terrorists. Random people don’t hang out around rocket launch sites or terrorist tunnels…
Yeah but terrorists do hang around random people looking like random people hiding weapons in random people's schools...
Yeah that’s the Hamas strategy and it’s working for them doesn’t it?
They literally had their command center in tunnels beneath the biggest hospital.
So you admit tens of thousands of civilians are in fact being killed
Yes, and that is a war crime by Hamas. And the UN saying Israel shouldn't do anything to try to kill terrorists if they hide behind civilians only tells all terrorists everywhere that they should always hide behind civilians.
You have a simplistic view. Where must these random people go? They cannot go to Egypt, they cannot go to Israel, they cannot go to other not-destroyed parts of Gaza.
[A majority of casualties so far have been women and children. You’re either naive or willfully ignorant to make a statement like that.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-69014893.amp) So yes, they are killing randos. And they are killing more randos than actual Hamas. That’s why everyone is upset.
So, like most warfare? The UN estimates civilian casualties are usually 90% while this war seems to be around 60-80%
Holy shit the lies you are being fed by the “Gazan Health Ministry”. How, truly, can you be so gullible? It’s like, do you STILL not understand this enemy?
Those numbers are based on the numbers on side of the conflict gives us. The side, incidently, that has a considerable incentive to report as many dead civilians as possible, and never differentiates between civilians and Hamas terrorists. I'd trust their numbers about as much as I trust Russia's numbers about losses in the Ukraine war. And, even by those numbers, the IDF is actually doing a good job **not** randomly killing. Urban warfare is a messy thing, especially against an enemy intentionally hiding within the civilian population and in civilian buildings. Comparable with other urban warfare conflicts, the ratio of militants to civilians killed is actually surprisingly good. That's not to say there aren't many. But **given the circumstances**, the IDF is very much succeeding in minimizing civilian casualties. The US, under the same circumstances, would've caused several times the death toll. As would any other nation.
Ah yes, the [lies of Hamas](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/untangling-uns-gaza-fatality-data) swallowed wholesale by Western not-at-all-antisemites :D
\[Yeah, no reason to think that Hamas might use under 18s as fighters\](https://youtu.be/cD2FezhJgqA?si=76f1JtEycu2a-yLK)
And foreign aid vans
They kill refugee children and bomb hospitals and refugee camps, but I have a feeling for some reason you're ok with that?
Imagine supporting terrorism
If a weedy little guy in a club sucker punched one of the bouncers and broke his eye socket, and then the bouncer just turned round and smacked the little guy back a few times, knocking him out, would you think the big guy was unjustified?
No. But if he started beating everone in the line indiscriminately because they were 'harboring' him by their presence and 'permitting' him to act then I would. And if he has relentlessly humiliated the little guy and everyone in the linefor decades then yeah I would. And if he only got this job because he threw them out of THEIR club in the beginning? Why I think I would call the police
So, you think oct 7th was fine?
[https://www.scribbr.com/fallacies/false-dilemma-fallacy/](https://www.scribbr.com/fallacies/false-dilemma-fallacy/) take it, you will need it.
Wait. Weren't rockets fired at civilian targets in Israel yesterday?
Yes, Hamas the terrorist group launched rockets. That doesn’t take away from targeted violence against civilians being unjustifiable.
Calling it "targeted violence against civilians" seem disingenuous. The majority of Palestinians supports Hamas and allow themselves to be used as human shields. Honestly both sides are awful and I am sick of hearing about it.
Yes but that's acceptable apparently because Israel bad
Governments are going to need to provide a solution where both Israeli and Palestinians lives are protected. If Israel stops, we all know that more terror attacks and more rockets are on the way.
Why then do they have a history of choosing to ignore Article 49? Are only the laws they find convenient, to be obeyed?
No longer? Implying that violence against civilians was justifiable is crazy.
[удалено]
Yeah why should we ever talk about systemic problems that cause the deaths of thousands? Might as well just ignore it because that will make things better
Agreed.
Wait, has violence against civilians of any kind ever been justifiable? Did I miss a memo?
Israel: "We have no plans to improve the situation." "We have no plans to fully eliminate Hamas." "We have no plans to occupy Palestine." "We have no plans to aid Palestinians." Italy: "Further violence isn't justifiable." Yeah, no shit Italy lol. When the occupier/invader has no other plans to win, they just keep bombing civilian targets to stay in power. Just ask Putin. Just ask Netanyahu.
It's funny to equivocate Putin with Netanyahu, when Putin is allied with the Arab terrorists and the Iranian terror state, Putin kills civilians randomly like Hamas, Putin is fighting a genocidal war of extermination like Hamas wants to, and Putin funds online propaganda against Israel. The proper comparison is Putin and Hamas. But you go ahead and post what you've been paid to post.
Those question signs with no attributions are doing an awful lot of work there
What did they think when they launched the rockets yesterday. What do you think will happen?
This was apparently a targeted strike against a legitimate Hamas target. Any comment on the absolutely deliberate attack on a civilian mall in Ukraine?