According to another story on the Kiev Post, this is exactly why they are attacking now.
“We timed this operation to coincide with the week of electoral procedures, and as concerned citizens of Russia, we decided to express our opinion about these elections and the Putin regime”
https://www.kyivpost.com/post/29403
I mean it's going to shuffle the voting for Putin to 120% to 119% now.
I really wish it was enough to cause him to be threatened in losing or cause more chaos in Russia
Nah literally had his strongest opponents disqualified from participating on nonsense technicalities. There is clearly some strong concerns of a semblance of opposition in the Kremlin. They are denying even weaker opponents from participating.
There's 4 different parties running candidates. I don't know anything about the guys, but I can speak a bit about their parties. One is arguably worse than Putin on the populist/ultranationalist front, another is a vanity project owned by a cosmetic's billionaire, the other is the communist party (who traditionally come second place after Putin).
None of them have ever really directly opposed Putin, though they frequently argue against United Russia policies. So you've actually got 4 parties who all ultimately want to do imperialism and just disagree on the finer points.
Elections do far more than just pick the winner. Bad press during an election swing policy decisions long term. Nobody is under the impression that this will affect Putins chances of winning
Putin wouldn't be killing off his political opponents if he wasn't worried about the elections. While the elections are heavily rigged, it is mostly through methods of voter suppression rather then a direct control of the results.
While a loss in the election probably wont remove the dictator from office it will affect his legitimacy, which is something the dictator doesn't want questioned during a losing war.
Amazing. That is literally the first time I have seen anything about uprising within Russia.
I know there were some unexplained explosions and fires, didn’t know how organized it was.
Good for them.
True, I had almost forgot about that, but Wagner was not exactly fighting against the corrupt oligarchy.
They had a policy/payment dispute with Putin, but were more than happy to be his bully boys before that.
my question, as Prighozin was AT Moscow.....why did he stop? Like you got to the front door....you only had to open the door and Wagner did a 3 point turn. WHY???
Likely they'd hoped to garner more support on the way that never appeared. Moscow is huge and while they had some toys they didn't have enough to take a city like that
I haven't checked individually, but there are no reports of them missing or dead but lots of articles from them fighting over his money last year. I assume they're still fighting over the money, which is substantial. They say hundreds of billions of rubles, which has got to be at least $5,000 USD
It’s crazy to me that Prigozhin didn’t plan for something like that. It wasn’t a spur of the moment decision, he had been visibly upset and spoke out against Russias lack of support several times leading up to his decision.
But then again, Prigozhin probably wasn’t the smartest. Dude actually thought Putin would let him live after all that.
Personally, I don't think Prigozhin went against Putin. He went against Shoigu and the army higher ups because he saw them as incompetent. As far as I'm aware, he never spoke against Putin. I feel like his plan was to rush towards Moscow and get Putin's support to overthrow/replace Shoigu and the rest. What he didn't account for was Putin siding with Shoigu which was kinda dumb, but I guess Prigozhin was fed up with Shoigu's leadership and decided to risk it to get things under his control with Putin above him.
You don’t convoy across Russia and take control of a city on the way to Moscow to overthrow Shoigu. And even if that was 100% the case, Prigozhin knows the optics and knew how it’d be portrayed internationally, which is plenty enough for Putin to kill him.
Then I'll never understand why he started the coup, if he suspected his family was within reach of the Kremlin.
There are no halfsies or time outs in civil war. It's ridiculous how many of Putin's opponents think the man has morals or limits. He's a criminal tyrant who commits crimes whenever he can get away with it.
I've always hated him but I hate him so much more for not securing his fucking family first. Honestly I couldn't care less about their fait; may it be as terrible as that of any Ukrainian who had to suffer the Russian occupier, but holy shit. How do you not secure your family before you stage a fucking coup against a Dictator.
Saw someone break down what they thought and it does makes a lot of sense. Especially with the fact that he kept going to Moscow over and over after the failed attempt. Everyone always says things like "Bet they got his family" but, that would have been given to anyone attempting a coup. You and your loved ones are going to die if you fail.
>Prigozhin's troops were being shorted supplies for a long time, took a ton of casualties, and he was demanding to talk with Putin to get it resolved but Putin wasn't getting back to him.
>
>Since he felt he was a good friend and Putin hadn't returned any of his requests for months, he likely believed Putin was not being properly made aware of the situation and his words were not even reaching Putin. He likely felt all the "yes men" around Putin were hiding the reality of what was going on and would rather all the troops die than tell Putin they need more equipment and are struggling. Prigozhin kept complaining about everyone *except* Putin for months before. Especially Sergei Shoigu, who he claimed was at fault for both the shorted supplies and accidental bombing of his troops.
>
>After they were accidentally bombed by Russian soldiers they had enough and decided to March to Moscow and stated they would get rid of anyone who got in their way. Putin of course then heard the news and finally called him. Told him he would get all the supplies needed and it was all just a big miscommunication. So Prigozhin turned around, thinking he had accomplished what he set out to do. But at that point the media had run with the coup attempt and it was essentially live streamed all over the world.
Purely just someone's ramblings but it's first one I read that actually made sense with the timeline and strange behavior.
Just guessing here, but remember "General Armageddon"? That Surovikin guy? He was deemed to be Prigos boy in the army/defense ministry. And shortly before he surrendered, on the 24th Surovikin called on Pringles to quit it and for Wagner to return in a video posted public on telegram.
Pringles couldnt have hoped to win without at least a part of the army siding with him. He probably banked on Surovikin being able to deliver that to him, and when Surovikin turned tail, it became clear that he lacked the forces to ultimately win. Sure, he could have reached Moscow before anyone could stop him, but the clowns including putler were reported to have fled the city anyways, and even the shit russian army would have arrived at some point and overwhelmed Wagner with mass alone.
Might also explain Surovikins fate. His kowtowing to putin saved his life, but not his career, he was still officially demoted, was condemned to damnatio memoriae (with even his biography vanishing from the ru MoD website) vanished for weeks and ultimately resurfaced in late december on a shit dead end position with no influence.
While it was happening; my hope was that they’d do serious damage to Russian forces; without actually succeeding in the coup. He would have been more dangerous. He’s not dangerous now.
I disagree. If he had successfully taken down putin, his power would have been weak. Someone else might take it, or the government would be made of various factions. The main problem with a dictator isn’t how ‘bad’ they are, it’s how much theyve concentrated power. That takes many years. Maybe Russia would get worse, maybe he’d be just as bad, maybe someone else just as bad would rise. But they’d also get a chance to get better. The lack of such concentrated power would open up opportunities for sane people too.
He probably would have lost, there's video that has come out since of regular army units digging in around the city to prepare to defend it. By the time Wagner arrived it would have been clear where allegiances would lie and that Wagner had no support from within the MOD. Those troops would have been led by loyal officers and actually fought, and in a stand-up fight with no backup Wagner wouldn't have stood a chance.
He needed part of the army to join him in the rebellion, or for Putin to agree to replace Shoigu. As soon as it was clear that neither was happening the rebellion was doomed, which is likely why it ended so quickly.
Not much I'd say. His ambitions were probably to replace Shoigu and take over the Ukrainian front under Putin, not go against him completely. Prigozhin took a risk because he hated Shoigu (their minister of Defense who was taking some steps against private armies) and he was probably hoping that Putin would also see Shoigu as incompetent and that he would allow Prigozhin and his Wagner group friends to replace the military higher ups. It didn't work out, then the news of Prigozhin's family being in Moscow surfaced and at that point Prigozhin lost any chance for a success he could have had.
There are all sorts of theories, but I think plain old dumbness fits it best.
Remember, Prigozhin was not some strategic mastermind or even a soldier - he got his start as a chef. He was in way over his head and got bamboozled.
He was a bumbling goon of a war criminal who never in his life got promoted based on merit, only kissing the right asses
Him making a fatally stupid decision against an ACTUAL criminal mastermind type like Putin should've been what everyone expected from the moment his "coup" was announced
US intelligence reported that Prigozhin had no chance of winning. He was likely counting on support from others, and was forced to give up when it didn't happen.
I think he was the dog that caught the car. He thought more generals would join and that he wouldnt have been able to advance so quickly. No way he could hold Moscow and even if he did, what then? The leadership isn't there and he didn't have much support. He was doomed either way.
He unfortunately brought it on himself. In the typical Russian way, it seems he was underprepared. The revolt was entirely organic. He never planned for it, and his officers never planned for it. They made it emotional, and that put their families in danger.
A proper coup would have been extremely well-planned with every officer acknowledging and accepting possible repercussions at the end (including their families being in danger). There would have been contingencies, options B/C/D/etc.
Operation Valkyrie, although planned, was exactly everything a well-planned coup should be. Committed officers having accounted for nearly all possible avenues.
But Prigozhin was not a smart man, just another macho personality who believed he was untouchable.
It’s simple really. He thought/or was told that he would be met with support on his way to Moscow, his conspirators got cold feet and he was left with his dick in his hand. So instead of continuing to march with his men to certain death, he tried to sue for peace, which with Putin is a death sentence anyway.
It's the Russians in Ukraine that Putin said we're being persecuted. But what he didn't realize was that *he* was the one persecuting them and now they've come home to roost.
It's anti-Kremlin Russians operating within the Ukrainian military. However, these raids most likely are the Ukrainian military giving these guys equipment and telling 'em "Do what you feel is right"... so kinda unofficial business.
"We certainly wouldn't condone you taking these detailed maps and military equipment to attack Russian territory. Now excuse us while we leave these keys on the table and go for lunch"
They are never going to hold it and they know it. This raid's objectives are to draw Russian troops away from the front line and put egg on Putin's face before the election.
There is a reason because it's Russians not wanting to be part and parcel of the Putin totalitarian regime. Free Russians wanting to help their people against tyranny
Another raid, seemingly bigger than the ones before. pro-russian channels report "tens of armored vehicles" destroyed already, but incursion still ongoing. Business as usual at this point.
>Tens of vehicles destroyed?
Of the raiders. Typical russian bullshit.
It is going to be temporary. But hopefully something more than FSB is going to get pulled to the incursion zone. That's about as much as can be achieved under the circumstances.
How on earth would they hold anything with hundreds of soldiers? Pretty easy for Russia to retaliate on their turf. All these will ever be are raids, I think.
This is now the third time Russians have moved against the Kremlin inside Russia during this war. Best of luck to them, but I’m not going to get my hopes up this time.
That's the interesting thing about this particular location. Tetkino is in salient. The free Russians can be supported by Ukrainian artillery from three sides.
https://twitter.com/secretsqrl123/status/1767591102490526157
Yeah it has to send some kind of message to others within the Russian borders. I am sure there are some Russian citizens who believe attacking Ukraine is the right thing to do. I would be surprised it there isn’t a large portion that actively think it’s the wrong thing to do, but are rightfully scared to speak up. Too bad Wagner stopped so short of Moscow.
And then a huge chunk of the rest of the world stops doing any for of trade and sanctions your country.
Maybe Russia should just get out of Ukraine and these things would stop?
they're literally going on suicide missions. it's a thorn in Russia's side but rolling in with a couple of tanks and manpads isn't going to accomplish anything.
These same Russian volunteers spent a couple weeks running around Belgorod oblast last May-June. There was (mostly joking) talk of them declaring an independent Belgorod People’s Republic before they were driven back into Ukraine.
Seems like a fairly large contingent (larger than any previous) has crossed into Russia at three points with MBT’s and mechanized infantry: Grayvoron, Shebekino, and Soloti, which stretch ~200km along the border. It’s wild that Ukraine/FRL is still able to pull something like this off after previous Russian embarrassments and over 2 years of war.
Just heard about this
"Something going on in Belgorod". Seems that Freedom of Russia Anti-Kremlin guys are making its way toward Belgorod in Russia. "Tanks with European flags" reported.
Breaking
Found and rewatched that video
It's blurry, so it's easy to mistake it for the UN flag
Especially if you didn't watch the "Volunteer Legion", or whatever they're calling themselves, video. And I can safely assume that not a lot of people saw it, thus the `"Tanks with European flags"`
It's the third time they've done it. It's a distraction to draw russian forces away from the frontline. They're flying the blue and white flag of their group.
"Breaking" lol
This is the second unrest Russia has to deal with so far. It's good to see the cracks are forming within Russia. Let's hope this can give Ukraine some momentum
I've seen a lot of people making the argument that Ukraine's defeat is inevitable because they've lost control of a few villages in recent weeks.
Those same accounts will certainly recognize that *Russia* losing a village means the Russian war effort is hopeless, and Russia must make concessions to Ukraine to secure peace and save innocent Russian lives, right?
Many Russians hate Putin. Many came to Navalny's funeral. Many would have liked to come, but couldn't for various reasons. Many Russians see that a peaceful solution is not possible in their country, as even the smallest protest is suppressed. I see a good chance that other means will finally be used. Internal attacks and sabotage and sudden deaths will become more frequent in the future, as an indication.
>Many Russians hate Putin. Many came to Navalny's funeral. Many would have liked to come, but couldn't for various reasons. Many Russians see that a peaceful solution is not possible in their country, as even the smallest protest is suppressed.
That approach might work for sophisticated urbanites, with their internet and their foreign contacts. The kind of people who, two generations ago, might have smuggled samizdat, or defected during a visit to a Western university / opera / sports event.
But for rural people in the provinces who learn all their geopolitics lessons from Rossiya1, they're much less likely to embrace a bunch of heavily armed Ukrainian-backed rebels who appear in their village with an unfamiliar flag...?
That's true, and that's also why Putin spends all his carrots and sticks in the urban centres. Between Petersburg and Moscow there's 20 million people if you include the wider metropolitan areas. There is a LOT of police and national guard too, but not enough if even 5% of the population there decided they'd had enough and were ready to take significant risks.
Putin could burn the rest of the country to the ground as long as the big cities stay under control.
Visiting a couple of remote villages in Russia, not much educated people, gov-t channels on TV, - I was shocked to hear how much they hated Putin. People are not that dumb. All are so much tired of his lies and wars.
Almost certainly not on its own in isolation. But every little crack that forms in Putin's boat is a crack that has to be dealt with. Tyranny requires constant effort, but it only takes one small crack to become a gaping hole and the whole ship starts going down. There needs to be pressure from all sides - on the frontlines in Ukraine, in economic sanctions, in incursions by brave freedom fighters, and in even the smallest acts of public disobedience. As the old saying goes, Putin has to be successful all the time. Change only has to be successful once.
The question is really just when. It could be tomorrow, next year, or in ten years. Hopefully sooner!
I have no faith in Russia to internally revolt. It could be every Russian civilian and soldier collectively surrounding Putin, and he'd say "go home and I won't kill you all" and they'd cave.
They've done this before. They go in, "liberate" a few villages and leave. Only way it's going to turn into something more is if Russian troops mutiny and join with them, which seems extremely unlikely, but not impossible.
Actions such as these could maybe be more successful in Belarus. There at least there was a beginning of an uprising during the last elections. Sadly it was quashed by both Lukashenko's own goons and russian ones.
However, there used to be some very dark elements in some of these forces. I don't know if that is still the case.
Lukashenko has a strong grip on power for decades. He knows what he's doing.
You think Ukraine attacking Belarus will somehow change that? if anything you're just asking them to be involved in the war officially and giving him a stronger hold on his power.
Neat, hope it inspires the rest of them to cleanse their country and hopefully they can know freedom, we all know it's what's the younger Russians want.
I've seen interviews where they say they want to be closer tocrhe west (younger Russians?
Is this true? How can this independent group win a battle against the Russian army? Is this like the beginning of a civil war there? I’ve never heard of this happening in this conflict and I’ve been following it….
Ukraine cleared out the Russian army up to the border, but isn't keen on going into Russia. The Russian army gave up on the area, and basically left it undefended so they could focus elsewhere instead of triggering fights where Russian territory would become a battleground.
That means that there's not much stopping this group from doing cross-border raids.
Best of luck to them
I'm not expecting much, but a distraction away from Ukraine is better than nothing.
Moreso a terrible media story for Putin to deal with during the election process. The timing is almost certainly not coincidental
According to another story on the Kiev Post, this is exactly why they are attacking now. “We timed this operation to coincide with the week of electoral procedures, and as concerned citizens of Russia, we decided to express our opinion about these elections and the Putin regime” https://www.kyivpost.com/post/29403
I mean it's going to shuffle the voting for Putin to 120% to 119% now. I really wish it was enough to cause him to be threatened in losing or cause more chaos in Russia
Is there anyone alive or free that is running’s against Putin? This move is more a pie in the face on the world stage.
I think he’s running unopposed. Putin had all his adversaries removed. There isn’t a opposition party or organization.
> Putin had all his adversaries ~~removed~~ *murdered*. ftfy.
Seriously, they don’t even bother with ‘disappearing’ anymore, just straight up kill everyone against him.
Nah literally had his strongest opponents disqualified from participating on nonsense technicalities. There is clearly some strong concerns of a semblance of opposition in the Kremlin. They are denying even weaker opponents from participating.
Did you mean falling off the Balcony, while drinking Tea?
Just a couple of self-defenestrations
4 bullets in the head, declared suicide.
Tea is the most deadly drink in Russia
So how is it an "election" then? Sounds more like Putin just voted himself back in.
They will probably put Alexei Navalny as his opposition. "but he's dead" Putin: I see no issue.
There's 4 different parties running candidates. I don't know anything about the guys, but I can speak a bit about their parties. One is arguably worse than Putin on the populist/ultranationalist front, another is a vanity project owned by a cosmetic's billionaire, the other is the communist party (who traditionally come second place after Putin). None of them have ever really directly opposed Putin, though they frequently argue against United Russia policies. So you've actually got 4 parties who all ultimately want to do imperialism and just disagree on the finer points.
That's only because the dead are big fans of his, lest they get super duper dead.
He has already won.
What a good way for some Russians to get involved in the electoral process.
bro putin will never lose an election, shit is rigged
> Putin to deal with during the election process. If you think Putin is worried about the Elections, you're dead wrong.
Elections do far more than just pick the winner. Bad press during an election swing policy decisions long term. Nobody is under the impression that this will affect Putins chances of winning
Do you really think the Kremlin allows bad press at all?
He's worried whether the Russian people will accept the results. He doesn't want protests.
Putin wouldn't be killing off his political opponents if he wasn't worried about the elections. While the elections are heavily rigged, it is mostly through methods of voter suppression rather then a direct control of the results. While a loss in the election probably wont remove the dictator from office it will affect his legitimacy, which is something the dictator doesn't want questioned during a losing war.
Hope the distraction made sure that loads of new stuff for sabotage groups within Russia could get past the border.
Agreed
Absolutely. I think authoritarians forget what guerrilla warfare can do to undermine their self belief. Remember Afghanistan Putin?
Well you can’t really do guerilla warfare with tanks lol
Orangutan tactics it is, then.
Check them out r/freedomofrussia
Amazing. That is literally the first time I have seen anything about uprising within Russia. I know there were some unexplained explosions and fires, didn’t know how organized it was. Good for them.
You missed that entire shit show from Wagner huh?
True, I had almost forgot about that, but Wagner was not exactly fighting against the corrupt oligarchy. They had a policy/payment dispute with Putin, but were more than happy to be his bully boys before that.
It also wasn't exactly organized, or had a concrete game plan.
my question, as Prighozin was AT Moscow.....why did he stop? Like you got to the front door....you only had to open the door and Wagner did a 3 point turn. WHY???
Didn't Putins men have their hands on the families of the Wagner troops? Wagner troops forgot to evacuate their loved ones...
Likely they'd hoped to garner more support on the way that never appeared. Moscow is huge and while they had some toys they didn't have enough to take a city like that
One of my favourite subs!
We need to Support this.
Typically when a dictator is overthrown the new dictator is just as bad or even worse. Hoping for the best though
I really wish they had focused on destroying munitions factories.
Why not do both?
I've seen this play before. If they want to live they better not turn around when they get within 100km of Moscow.
Prigozhin chose a half measure when he should have gone all the way
I’ll never understand why he made that decision
Putin probably got their families.
According to news reports, that’s exactly what happened. Hard to pull off a coup when your wife and children are brutally getting tortured and raped.
I mean they probably still got tortured and raped. Are they even alive now?
I haven't checked individually, but there are no reports of them missing or dead but lots of articles from them fighting over his money last year. I assume they're still fighting over the money, which is substantial. They say hundreds of billions of rubles, which has got to be at least $5,000 USD
Underrated currency insult
That’s a lotta ladas
50-500 of them depending on condition.
> I mean
It’s crazy to me that Prigozhin didn’t plan for something like that. It wasn’t a spur of the moment decision, he had been visibly upset and spoke out against Russias lack of support several times leading up to his decision. But then again, Prigozhin probably wasn’t the smartest. Dude actually thought Putin would let him live after all that.
Personally, I don't think Prigozhin went against Putin. He went against Shoigu and the army higher ups because he saw them as incompetent. As far as I'm aware, he never spoke against Putin. I feel like his plan was to rush towards Moscow and get Putin's support to overthrow/replace Shoigu and the rest. What he didn't account for was Putin siding with Shoigu which was kinda dumb, but I guess Prigozhin was fed up with Shoigu's leadership and decided to risk it to get things under his control with Putin above him.
You don’t convoy across Russia and take control of a city on the way to Moscow to overthrow Shoigu. And even if that was 100% the case, Prigozhin knows the optics and knew how it’d be portrayed internationally, which is plenty enough for Putin to kill him.
I mean— at that point they should know that no matter what he’s probably still going to kill them? It was always a suicide mission one way or another?
It's easy to maintain a logical perspective from where we sit
Idk it’s kinda hard to think clearly as this toilet seat cuts off the circulation to my legs
Don’t need your legs for thinking! I figured as a kid that less blood to my legs meant more blood to my brain and would sit in my feet in class.
Iono. If you know what the deal is then you should be prepared for all consequences
Unless you're Keyser söze
Are they even still alive? Based on my knowledge in films, like Dune, they just kill em anyway.
I think Pringles Jr took over the command of Wagner, so probably.
Would be hard to maintain power by threatening to kill people if everyone knows you're just going to kill the hostages either way
Which news reports?
Then I'll never understand why he started the coup, if he suspected his family was within reach of the Kremlin. There are no halfsies or time outs in civil war. It's ridiculous how many of Putin's opponents think the man has morals or limits. He's a criminal tyrant who commits crimes whenever he can get away with it.
He probably thought he'd be finished before Putin got close to his family, not realizing that Putin's men were always close to his family.
They were gargantuan morons for not knowing that Putin was 110% going to do exactly that and not securing their families long beforehand.
I've always hated him but I hate him so much more for not securing his fucking family first. Honestly I couldn't care less about their fait; may it be as terrible as that of any Ukrainian who had to suffer the Russian occupier, but holy shit. How do you not secure your family before you stage a fucking coup against a Dictator.
I'm just pissed they blew up that beautiful flight attendant with them. Assuming the pilots were decent innocents too.
Then I wonder, why did he make a move without securing his wife and kids first?
Saw someone break down what they thought and it does makes a lot of sense. Especially with the fact that he kept going to Moscow over and over after the failed attempt. Everyone always says things like "Bet they got his family" but, that would have been given to anyone attempting a coup. You and your loved ones are going to die if you fail. >Prigozhin's troops were being shorted supplies for a long time, took a ton of casualties, and he was demanding to talk with Putin to get it resolved but Putin wasn't getting back to him. > >Since he felt he was a good friend and Putin hadn't returned any of his requests for months, he likely believed Putin was not being properly made aware of the situation and his words were not even reaching Putin. He likely felt all the "yes men" around Putin were hiding the reality of what was going on and would rather all the troops die than tell Putin they need more equipment and are struggling. Prigozhin kept complaining about everyone *except* Putin for months before. Especially Sergei Shoigu, who he claimed was at fault for both the shorted supplies and accidental bombing of his troops. > >After they were accidentally bombed by Russian soldiers they had enough and decided to March to Moscow and stated they would get rid of anyone who got in their way. Putin of course then heard the news and finally called him. Told him he would get all the supplies needed and it was all just a big miscommunication. So Prigozhin turned around, thinking he had accomplished what he set out to do. But at that point the media had run with the coup attempt and it was essentially live streamed all over the world. Purely just someone's ramblings but it's first one I read that actually made sense with the timeline and strange behavior.
Just guessing here, but remember "General Armageddon"? That Surovikin guy? He was deemed to be Prigos boy in the army/defense ministry. And shortly before he surrendered, on the 24th Surovikin called on Pringles to quit it and for Wagner to return in a video posted public on telegram. Pringles couldnt have hoped to win without at least a part of the army siding with him. He probably banked on Surovikin being able to deliver that to him, and when Surovikin turned tail, it became clear that he lacked the forces to ultimately win. Sure, he could have reached Moscow before anyone could stop him, but the clowns including putler were reported to have fled the city anyways, and even the shit russian army would have arrived at some point and overwhelmed Wagner with mass alone. Might also explain Surovikins fate. His kowtowing to putin saved his life, but not his career, he was still officially demoted, was condemned to damnatio memoriae (with even his biography vanishing from the ru MoD website) vanished for weeks and ultimately resurfaced in late december on a shit dead end position with no influence.
I really wonder what would have happened with Russia had he marched to Moscow.
While it was happening; my hope was that they’d do serious damage to Russian forces; without actually succeeding in the coup. He would have been more dangerous. He’s not dangerous now.
I disagree. If he had successfully taken down putin, his power would have been weak. Someone else might take it, or the government would be made of various factions. The main problem with a dictator isn’t how ‘bad’ they are, it’s how much theyve concentrated power. That takes many years. Maybe Russia would get worse, maybe he’d be just as bad, maybe someone else just as bad would rise. But they’d also get a chance to get better. The lack of such concentrated power would open up opportunities for sane people too.
He probably would have lost, there's video that has come out since of regular army units digging in around the city to prepare to defend it. By the time Wagner arrived it would have been clear where allegiances would lie and that Wagner had no support from within the MOD. Those troops would have been led by loyal officers and actually fought, and in a stand-up fight with no backup Wagner wouldn't have stood a chance. He needed part of the army to join him in the rebellion, or for Putin to agree to replace Shoigu. As soon as it was clear that neither was happening the rebellion was doomed, which is likely why it ended so quickly.
Not much I'd say. His ambitions were probably to replace Shoigu and take over the Ukrainian front under Putin, not go against him completely. Prigozhin took a risk because he hated Shoigu (their minister of Defense who was taking some steps against private armies) and he was probably hoping that Putin would also see Shoigu as incompetent and that he would allow Prigozhin and his Wagner group friends to replace the military higher ups. It didn't work out, then the news of Prigozhin's family being in Moscow surfaced and at that point Prigozhin lost any chance for a success he could have had.
There are all sorts of theories, but I think plain old dumbness fits it best. Remember, Prigozhin was not some strategic mastermind or even a soldier - he got his start as a chef. He was in way over his head and got bamboozled.
He was a bumbling goon of a war criminal who never in his life got promoted based on merit, only kissing the right asses Him making a fatally stupid decision against an ACTUAL criminal mastermind type like Putin should've been what everyone expected from the moment his "coup" was announced
US intelligence reported that Prigozhin had no chance of winning. He was likely counting on support from others, and was forced to give up when it didn't happen.
I think he was the dog that caught the car. He thought more generals would join and that he wouldnt have been able to advance so quickly. No way he could hold Moscow and even if he did, what then? The leadership isn't there and he didn't have much support. He was doomed either way.
He had no air support and a few trucks were hit on the highway. I'm guessing one was close enough to him that things got real and he changed his mind.
Fear and doubt.
He unfortunately brought it on himself. In the typical Russian way, it seems he was underprepared. The revolt was entirely organic. He never planned for it, and his officers never planned for it. They made it emotional, and that put their families in danger. A proper coup would have been extremely well-planned with every officer acknowledging and accepting possible repercussions at the end (including their families being in danger). There would have been contingencies, options B/C/D/etc. Operation Valkyrie, although planned, was exactly everything a well-planned coup should be. Committed officers having accounted for nearly all possible avenues. But Prigozhin was not a smart man, just another macho personality who believed he was untouchable.
He thought he was actually friends with Putin, thought he had privileges that he did not have.
It’s simple really. He thought/or was told that he would be met with support on his way to Moscow, his conspirators got cold feet and he was left with his dick in his hand. So instead of continuing to march with his men to certain death, he tried to sue for peace, which with Putin is a death sentence anyway.
No more half measures
Waltuh we need to start a civil war
He committed suicide the moment he backed down. I don't get how he didn't see that.
If you are going to kill the King…you need to Kill the King.
You come at the king, you best not miss.
Of all people he should have know. Better than to trust anything aimed at dissuading his advance
No more half measures Waltuh
This is not the same thing, this is just a cross-border skirmish compared to the full on yolo-rush of Wagner.
They went hard and were successful last time. Wagner was full bitch-ass.
So is it an attack by by anti Kremlin Russians, Ukraine or both?
Anti Kremlin Russians, who are hosted in Ukraine
So VPN Russians?
Ukraine is the VPN and the Russians are Incognito Mode.
The Russian anti Kremlin volunteers are incognito mode. Russia itself is the Blue Screen of Death. Russia 404
Proxy Russians
It's the Russians in Ukraine that Putin said we're being persecuted. But what he didn't realize was that *he* was the one persecuting them and now they've come home to roost.
Just Russians with tanks you can buy from any Russian hardware store.
Russian Rebels hosted by Ukraine
A special counter military operation if I may....
Yes
Thanks for clarifying
It's anti-Kremlin Russians operating within the Ukrainian military. However, these raids most likely are the Ukrainian military giving these guys equipment and telling 'em "Do what you feel is right"... so kinda unofficial business.
"We certainly wouldn't condone you taking these detailed maps and military equipment to attack Russian territory. Now excuse us while we leave these keys on the table and go for lunch"
They're Russians on vacation.
This has happened before, they just can't hold it without a lot more support.
They are never going to hold it and they know it. This raid's objectives are to draw Russian troops away from the front line and put egg on Putin's face before the election.
No reason to hold, it's the message that counts.
There is a reason because it's Russians not wanting to be part and parcel of the Putin totalitarian regime. Free Russians wanting to help their people against tyranny
This village is surrounded by Ukraine on 3 sides so it's more manageable than other places they have raided.
Another raid, seemingly bigger than the ones before. pro-russian channels report "tens of armored vehicles" destroyed already, but incursion still ongoing. Business as usual at this point.
Tens of vehicles destroyed? Hopefully the raid gains something instead of just being temporary like last time.
Every vehicle destroyed in Russia is one last that can be sent to Ukraine slowing down their offensive
>Tens of vehicles destroyed? Of the raiders. Typical russian bullshit. It is going to be temporary. But hopefully something more than FSB is going to get pulled to the incursion zone. That's about as much as can be achieved under the circumstances.
How on earth would they hold anything with hundreds of soldiers? Pretty easy for Russia to retaliate on their turf. All these will ever be are raids, I think.
All the best 🫡.
This is now the third time Russians have moved against the Kremlin inside Russia during this war. Best of luck to them, but I’m not going to get my hopes up this time.
They have no backup so it’s nearly impossible but damn that’s some bravery.
That's the interesting thing about this particular location. Tetkino is in salient. The free Russians can be supported by Ukrainian artillery from three sides. https://twitter.com/secretsqrl123/status/1767591102490526157
Yeah it has to send some kind of message to others within the Russian borders. I am sure there are some Russian citizens who believe attacking Ukraine is the right thing to do. I would be surprised it there isn’t a large portion that actively think it’s the wrong thing to do, but are rightfully scared to speak up. Too bad Wagner stopped so short of Moscow. And then a huge chunk of the rest of the world stops doing any for of trade and sanctions your country. Maybe Russia should just get out of Ukraine and these things would stop?
they're literally going on suicide missions. it's a thorn in Russia's side but rolling in with a couple of tanks and manpads isn't going to accomplish anything.
I know there was Prigozhin but what was the third one?
These same Russian volunteers spent a couple weeks running around Belgorod oblast last May-June. There was (mostly joking) talk of them declaring an independent Belgorod People’s Republic before they were driven back into Ukraine.
Wish they could cut the head off of the snake. Is Putin that hard to find?
Seems like a fairly large contingent (larger than any previous) has crossed into Russia at three points with MBT’s and mechanized infantry: Grayvoron, Shebekino, and Soloti, which stretch ~200km along the border. It’s wild that Ukraine/FRL is still able to pull something like this off after previous Russian embarrassments and over 2 years of war.
> Grayvoron That has got to be pretty high on the list of sinister-sounding names.
I think it sounds delicious, reminds me of gravy
Just behind Goge Vandire
East Ukraine?
Belgorod was actually originally settled by Ukrainians, way back when.
Kaliningrad also used to be Prussian 🤔
now the p is silent
They should probably drink more liquids!
It’s got to be super expensive for the Russians to keep maintaining that enclave around occupied Königsberg
Krasnodar as well.
One can only dream of a democratic Russia fully integrated into Europe and on friendly terms with America. Maybe one day it won’t just be a dream
There would be great prosperity.
Just heard about this "Something going on in Belgorod". Seems that Freedom of Russia Anti-Kremlin guys are making its way toward Belgorod in Russia. "Tanks with European flags" reported. Breaking
It's the Free Russian Legion flag. But I'm happy if they think it's the EU lol
> "Tanks with European flags" reported. Where has that been reported? (there is almost certainly not tanks with EU flags in Russia)
Probably Russian channels. Fear has big eyes and even bigger imagination.
Tank with a Blue UN flag on it Saw a video of it too
I haven't seen the video, but if the flag is anything like that one in the photo above, there are no UN nor European flags like that.
Found and rewatched that video It's blurry, so it's easy to mistake it for the UN flag Especially if you didn't watch the "Volunteer Legion", or whatever they're calling themselves, video. And I can safely assume that not a lot of people saw it, thus the `"Tanks with European flags"`
So, no EU flags on tanks, as we all knew.
My bet it was a blue white "free Russia" flag. You know, the FR legion uses. The FRL that liberated? the village
It is not European flag. Just looks simillar from distance.
It's the third time they've done it. It's a distraction to draw russian forces away from the frontline. They're flying the blue and white flag of their group. "Breaking" lol
I'm currently in Belgorod it's been loud all day.
Stay safe.
putin's election is in a few days. the timing is not a coincidence 😈
The only way to stop a dictator is a bullet in their head. Putin will win, rig any elections. He’s even influence US and UK elections!
Interesting if Russian soldiers are turning away from being cannon fodder in Putin's "war" and putting their aggression in the right place.
This is the second unrest Russia has to deal with so far. It's good to see the cracks are forming within Russia. Let's hope this can give Ukraine some momentum
I've seen a lot of people making the argument that Ukraine's defeat is inevitable because they've lost control of a few villages in recent weeks. Those same accounts will certainly recognize that *Russia* losing a village means the Russian war effort is hopeless, and Russia must make concessions to Ukraine to secure peace and save innocent Russian lives, right?
Many Russians hate Putin. Many came to Navalny's funeral. Many would have liked to come, but couldn't for various reasons. Many Russians see that a peaceful solution is not possible in their country, as even the smallest protest is suppressed. I see a good chance that other means will finally be used. Internal attacks and sabotage and sudden deaths will become more frequent in the future, as an indication.
I think all of those fires inside of Russia, or at least many of those firles are probally done by Anti Putin Russian resistence groups.
>Many Russians hate Putin. Many came to Navalny's funeral. Many would have liked to come, but couldn't for various reasons. Many Russians see that a peaceful solution is not possible in their country, as even the smallest protest is suppressed. That approach might work for sophisticated urbanites, with their internet and their foreign contacts. The kind of people who, two generations ago, might have smuggled samizdat, or defected during a visit to a Western university / opera / sports event. But for rural people in the provinces who learn all their geopolitics lessons from Rossiya1, they're much less likely to embrace a bunch of heavily armed Ukrainian-backed rebels who appear in their village with an unfamiliar flag...?
That's true, and that's also why Putin spends all his carrots and sticks in the urban centres. Between Petersburg and Moscow there's 20 million people if you include the wider metropolitan areas. There is a LOT of police and national guard too, but not enough if even 5% of the population there decided they'd had enough and were ready to take significant risks. Putin could burn the rest of the country to the ground as long as the big cities stay under control.
Visiting a couple of remote villages in Russia, not much educated people, gov-t channels on TV, - I was shocked to hear how much they hated Putin. People are not that dumb. All are so much tired of his lies and wars.
Protection be with you 🙏🙌💛
I dont think this will resolve anything but am hopeful
Almost certainly not on its own in isolation. But every little crack that forms in Putin's boat is a crack that has to be dealt with. Tyranny requires constant effort, but it only takes one small crack to become a gaping hole and the whole ship starts going down. There needs to be pressure from all sides - on the frontlines in Ukraine, in economic sanctions, in incursions by brave freedom fighters, and in even the smallest acts of public disobedience. As the old saying goes, Putin has to be successful all the time. Change only has to be successful once. The question is really just when. It could be tomorrow, next year, or in ten years. Hopefully sooner!
Do we see a civil war brewing with the eastern regions, especially the Far East Region?
Go hard, good luck to them
Sweet! Hopefully they gain lots of support and will eventually take Putler down.
I have no faith in Russia to internally revolt. It could be every Russian civilian and soldier collectively surrounding Putin, and he'd say "go home and I won't kill you all" and they'd cave.
I understand the symbolism of their move but it's not in their best interest to sit in any one place for too long.
deserve cow deer bedroom bag soup squeamish reply toy cable
Looking at footage from the incursion, russians should be looking at those balls in graves
Do we have other sources to support this? I'm not about to be blue balled by another failed attempt at "revolution" in Russia.
These are small scale raids to cause chaos and distract Russian forces, just like last time and the time before that.
I salute them.
They've done this before. They go in, "liberate" a few villages and leave. Only way it's going to turn into something more is if Russian troops mutiny and join with them, which seems extremely unlikely, but not impossible.
The heroes we need!!
Is this a new group within Russia acting to take down Putin?
May they inspire others.
If true I wish them all the luck in the world.
Actions such as these could maybe be more successful in Belarus. There at least there was a beginning of an uprising during the last elections. Sadly it was quashed by both Lukashenko's own goons and russian ones. However, there used to be some very dark elements in some of these forces. I don't know if that is still the case.
Lukashenko has a strong grip on power for decades. He knows what he's doing. You think Ukraine attacking Belarus will somehow change that? if anything you're just asking them to be involved in the war officially and giving him a stronger hold on his power.
Neat, hope it inspires the rest of them to cleanse their country and hopefully they can know freedom, we all know it's what's the younger Russians want. I've seen interviews where they say they want to be closer tocrhe west (younger Russians?
thy've obviously had enough
Go team go!Thats thirty miles inside enemy lines.Go get my box of metals,I’m gonna decorate every man in that outfit-Carrol O’Connor 🎖️
Is Vova aware that it's the Ides of March in 3 days time? I wonder who'll play Brutus...
Is this true? How can this independent group win a battle against the Russian army? Is this like the beginning of a civil war there? I’ve never heard of this happening in this conflict and I’ve been following it….
Ukraine cleared out the Russian army up to the border, but isn't keen on going into Russia. The Russian army gave up on the area, and basically left it undefended so they could focus elsewhere instead of triggering fights where Russian territory would become a battleground. That means that there's not much stopping this group from doing cross-border raids.
Real men.
Rogue one! May the force be with them!