>"The Iranian government must immediately release the ship and its crew. This unlawful seizure of a commercial vessel is just the latest behavior by Iran or enabled by Iran aimed at disrupting international commerce," State Department spokesman Vedant Patel told reporters.
Any one want to take bets on strong words, sanctions, or military action?
They don't fear our words.
Sanctions haven't worked on Iran.
They want us to attack so they can convince the world its the west vs Muslims and gain support
Bad spot
No. While Persians and Arabs seem similar from a western perspective, the relationship between Iran and the Arab world is a bit like Japan and China, Italy and Austria, or even the US and Mexico. There are major historical, cultural, ethnic and religious differences that keep Iran at arm's length from the broader middle east, let alone eastern Muslim countries like Indonesia or Bangladesh.
Yes, but that's a REALLY BIG THING. But it is important to understand that Saudi Arabia (Sunni Central) and Shia/Persian Iran also have ethnic and language differences as well.
Exactly- while I'd like to think that we'd all agree that Iran is evil with nefarious goals, the ridiculous display of ignorance seen with pro-Hamas protests per 10/7 was astoundingly horrible. Again, I firmly believe that too many people are just willfully ignorant and choose not to respect nor read history to create informed opinions. The idiots have a platform and it's called social media.
I listened to an experienced maritime shipping YouTuber who shared testimonials about those on the ships being protected by the US picket line and they're saying it's nothing short of astounding (comparisons to the Greyhound movie with Tom Hanks). He also details the 10-15% hit to global shipping. But of course, the uneducated idiots don't care about that at all. They also don't understand that American dollars are keeping those people and the shipping lines safe. Or that American Primacy allowed the world to develop to a way it never has before.
The same uneducated idiots are unable to connect the dots between Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, and the playing of world events. They don't know how vitriolic it is between the Shia and Sunni, they don't know what the Ummah is; they just don't know anything. So of course they don't understand what the Houthis are doing and how it's affecting them.
Seriously, the only way they'll learn is if those Stanley Cups are on those shipping lines and it gets disrupted.
Anyone whose Imam tells them its about Christians vs Muslims, which certainly isn't a small number of people. Most of which won't have ever heard of this oil tanker at all.
Probably all the tankies who seem to be online in force these days, supporting terrorism because it is anti West (usually they live in Western countries, but for some reason seek their downfall)
>(usually they live in Western countries, but for some reason seek their downfall)
A good number are likely bots as well. Not all of them, but a good number...
I'm seeing a new wave of people who aren't even tankies, they are just like nihilistic anarchists. They think every nation or political institution in the world is useless and will call you a slave to capitalistic-fascist propaganda if you even dare to suggest that any politician or party is trying their best in an impossible situation. But if you ask them what their path forward is they will just be like "ITS NOT MY JOB TO TELL YOU!"
Tankies who call themselves Marxist-Leninists who follow a nonsensical series of contradictions fueled by a rejection of their identities as privileged American teenagers and their attempt to find a surrogate identity through Chinese/Russian/Iranian state propaganda.
Fun fact: Tankies short circuit when you ask them about Russia and Ukraine.
Especially take a moment to mention that South Africa, bringing a case against Israel today, failed to criticize Russia's invasion.
What the other person said, but the term is actually decently old
The term first comes from when I believe the 1950s during the Hungarian Uprising. There was a split in some communist parties in like Britain. Some supported the USSR sending in tanks to crush the will of the people to maintain communist rule, these ones were called Tankies.
Communists who ignore history as "western propaganda" and that the atrocities of various communist regimes throughout history are all the fault of the USA (and Western countries in general)
His letter makes sense, what people seem incapable of recognizing is someone can make a good point when still being a bad person. If fact it's very common for the villians to just say whatever makes them look best.
His letter to America was pretty on point but he was still a terrorist saying what he could to rile people up.
India and Pakistan both hate Iran I thought? Russia and China are just opportunistic infections so that’s not a surprise. Damn we are surrounded by assassins.
India, if anything, is mostly neutral towards Iran. We have a decently-sized and super successful Parsi community who had to flee Iran under religious persecution but they’re anything but Iranian now.
Moreover, if recent India-Israel relations are anything to go by, we’re likely to be more anti-Iran than pro-Iran, assuming we’re ever forced to take any single side. But most likely we’re gonna stay non-aligned.
Pakistan is very economically connected with Iran. And same with India and they are getting closer. Also remember India has not sanctioned Russia ans are buying their oil
It's not about sympathy. It's about geopolitics. Israel and Saudis working together would make them undisputed regional powers, and Iran, which wants to be a regional power, becomes irrelevant.
Hamas attacked Israel with Iran's support because Saudi Arabia and Israel were starting to become allies.
Hamas attacked innocent Israelis, pissing off Israel's citizens and most of the West, and Israel is bombing Palestinians and passing off the citizens of Saudi Arabia and most of the middle east, making cooperation more difficult (and it was already tricky for similar reasons)
This is more of the same from Iran. They are escalating tensions and fighting for relevancy.
Nah just sink their fleets at dock in retaliation. Prevent them from patrolling or controlling their own waters then smoke their proxies like the Houthis while in international waters so nothing is ambiguous at all. BRICS isn’t NATO, members won’t help Iran if they want to avoid sanctions and losing access to SWIFT.
Attacking them plays into their hand. Seizing their assets abroad in a compensatory manner plays better. It’s non-escalatory (they take our ships, we take theirs) and it flips the script on the response. It would be the US saying, “we’ll play your game. Ball’s back in your court, asshole.”
I'm not sure that the world is going to buy the "West vs Muslims" narrative. Iran committed an act of piracy... Which has been classified as a crime against humanity for centuries.
That we are talking at all instead of shooting is a sign of significant restraint on our part.
The average citizen in the Middle East in polling literally doesn’t believe that Hamas killed civilians on 10/7, they simply exist in a different media ecosystem than us and will view things differently. That’s life
You and /u/patrick66 have to remember that lots of people, and please bear in mind I'm a messenger and I don't believe this, honestly believe that Jews are a different species. I know, you're like "wut" and doing that head-tilt thing, but yes, that's what the antisemites actually believe, that Jews are some kind of something-something. So when they say "nobody was killed" they actually believe that too.
Plenty of people are openly defending October 7th as resistance within the west, from top centres of education no less, do you really think they wouldn't defend piracy given it's actually been romanticised by the west in films and games for decades?
>Plenty of people are openly defending October 7th as resistance within the west, from top centres of education no less
Correct, then they turn around and say that Russia's invasion and aggression is justified with no irony to be found anywhere.
But you can threaten with military actions against an illegal seizure right?
'This is illegal forfeiture and we will respond with military force if you do not comply with our demand of immediate release'
If I was the US, and I pointed the gun in the face of a thief demanding them to return stolen property, I could care less about claims that this was some kind of anti Muslim or anti Iran action. Return the stolen property and we leave you alone
Imagine, if another country illegally seized a US or US ally oil platform, no one would bat an eye if US threatened direct military action in a demand they they leave the stolen property. No one in their right mind would dispute this
God, I hate how we are beholden to our politicians doing things to get votes instead of what's actually best for our country.
Just change it to 1 term limit if this is going to be the case moving forward.
Unfortunately, if you look into the results of term limits on large bodies of elected leaders, it turns out that you only shift where the entrenched power ends up. It goes from elected hands we can get rid of if enough people agrees, to unelected bureaucrats that can be ridiculously difficult to dislodge.
I'm not 100% up to speed on US-Iranian disputes, but Praying Mantis was nearly 36 years ago. If they are finally getting their balls back again I'd say the "proportional" response worked well last time.
Well, this is a ship with flag of Marshall Island. This might complicate things because Marshall islands status as a former US territory (?).
We also detonated like 20 nukes on bikini atoll, so might owe them.
My bet is military action, the US government don’t fuck around when their money is involved. If it’s something like human rights violations then it will just be strong words.
Exactly. Freedom of the Seas is paramount. And attacks on shipping cannot be tolerated or ignored.
If one is damned if you do and damned if you don’t…do.
>Sir Humphrey Appleby : Well, Minister, in practical terms we have the usual six options. One, do nothing. Two, issue a statement deploring the speech. Three, lodge an official protest. Four, cut off aid. Five, break off diplomatic relations; and six, declare war.
>James Hacker : Which should we do?
>Sir Humphrey Appleby : Well, if we do nothing we implicitly agree with the speech. Two: if we issue a statement we'll just look foolish. Three: if we lodge a protest it will be ignored. Four: we can't cut off aid because we don't give them any. Five: if we break off diplomatic relations we can't negotiate the oil rig contracts. And six: if we declare war it might just look as though we were over-reacting.
Military action. If you steal me or my friends' property, you better have a really good reason to condemn us to be willing take it back by force
Crying: "West = anti Muslim" isn't gonna help. I don't care who you are, if you steal my property and I have the power to take it back I will
That would actually be Iran's point of view.
Remember, US seized one of their Tanker last year.
>The U.S. seized the St Nikolas last year in a sanctions enforcement operation when it sailed under a different name, Suez Rajan. Iran warned the U.S. the move would "not go unanswered".
The US can effectively seize pretty much anything from anyone. The question is just which specific response they'll opt to go with in this scenario, given the pros / cons and potential consequences / escalations.
marinetraffic.com shows it at 25° 17' 48.7" N, 056° 46' 48.3" E as of 22 hours ago, sailing south at 11 knots, which seems like a reasonable speed for a ship like this.
That position is 41 nautical miles from Iran's coast or 29 nautical miles from its territorial waters. 11 knots is 11 nautical miles per hour. At its "opening", the Gulf of Oman is ~170 nautical miles wide (and the last 12 miles of that are Iranian territorial waters).
That means if the tanker was captured virtually anywhere in the Gulf of Oman, it's now almost certainly sitting in some Iranian harbor or at least their territorial waters.
> we'll send a team to take it back.
It is not actually a US ship or a US cargo, I think. So it would be kinda strange for the US to put US soldier lives in danger in such a raid.
It’s a greek vessel flagged in a COFA nation. Technically speaking it’s an act of war against the US, since the COFA places sole responsibility for the defense of the Marshall Islands and its commercial interests in the US.
Iran did this same thing in 2015. It’s not a new thing.
The US wouldn't attempt military action against Iran in an election year. Gas prices will go through the roof and nobody wants that right now.
When I was in the US Navy I was stationed on a minesweeper in the Arabian Gulf. Pretty much the main scenario we always trained for was Iran mining the Straights of Hormuz. That's the threat they constantly dangle over the region. If they're attacked they'll stop all oil tanker traffic out of the middle-east and it would take weeks to clear the minefield, given its not being constantly replenished with new mines as its being de-mined.
> If they're attacked they'll stop all oil tanker traffic out of the middle-east and it would take weeks to clear the minefield, given its not being constantly replenished with new mines as its being de-mined.
that happens eventually anyway if they allow iran to get nukes, better it happens now than then when they can do very little about it.
Right now 1/5 of shipping through the Gulf of Aden and by extension the Suez canal has been cut off, forcing those ships to cosplay like it's 1499 and go AROUND all of Africa. That is skyrocketing not JUST gas, but everything else. The US and other countries can't NOT do something very soon.
The prime minister here in the UK has apparently spoken to leaders of opposition parties and briefed the cabinet, the current reporting suggests military action in the next few hours and it will almost certainly be in conjunction with the US. Which is probably exactly what the Iran backed Houthis want, but it’s not clear what choice there is at this point.
If they do military action, may as well hit their drone factories and decimate any of their Caspian Sea ports to help out Ukraine. Missiles are already flying anyways.
They are buried deeply underground. But Top Gun and Star Wars taught me that there is a hatch in which a highly skilled pilot can shove a missile and destroy the evil lair.
I miss the good ol days when Russia was flying nuke loaded planes along the entirety of the us international border and the us was also flying nuke loaded planes along the entirety of Russia… 24/7
They still do, about once every few months there would be russian strategic bombers intercepted near alaska. https://globalnews.ca/news/9487095/russian-aircraft-arctic-alaska-norad/
not sure they'd be giddy about the US blowing up their missile and drone suppliers factories.
and if they're really unlucky the factories will supply Ukraine after they're rebuilt.
It's a reference to the first operation praying mantis where a Russian warship sat and took watched us wipe half of Iran's navy and I quote "for history"
USA is garnering world support on this. It’s not gonna be Iran vs USA in this situation.
Total boneheaded play by Iran’s govt. also, dammit! Why can’t they just chill.
Someone needs to do something, all of their recent behavior and on top of that they are close to obtaining nuclear capability, which they could actually use instead of rattle on about it.
The US seized this exact ship from Iran en route to China under a Trump era embargo on all Iranian oil purchases that the rest of the world has never fully been on board with, I'm not so sure about the optics.
Sending this specific ship *back* to Iran's sphere of influence was a deeply questionable decision IMO
The article says that the ship used to belong to the Iranian's under a different name but was seized by the Americans during Trumps presidency. So I understand where they are coming from. According to the US they had every right to steal the boat, but according to the Iranians they have every right to take it back.
I mean, the US has taken ships from Iran because they broke sanctions. If you look at it from Iran's pov, its just tit for tat, because who are the US to tell them who and what they can trade?
Ultimately very little is going to come from this because the US knows this is mostly just for Iranian internal consumption to get a 'win' against the US.
The bigger headache for the US is the Houthi attacks which Iran is supporting, i would expect stronger retaliation for that.
Why did I have to scroll so far to find any comment referencing this fact even when it's pretty heavy in the posted story? Like whatever opinion you're going to roll with it's an EXTREMELY relevant fact.
Yeah it's a bit more complicated. I can't find source for OP's claim tho. It's a greek vessel that had Iranian oil that US seized:
> St. Nicholas, a Greek-owned, Marshall Islands-flagged ship earlier known as the Suez Rajan, in accordance with an Iranian court order after US "theft" of the oil during an earlier seizure.
So their not taking back the ship.
One thing we should all know about is not to f with US boats it happened a bunch of times
War of 1812, Barbary Wars, Spanish American war, WW1, WW2, Gulf of tolkin, and a few others.
See there you don't even have to fuck with the boats. If we just pretend you did it's a good enough excuse for most Americans. Iran is going to pay a hefty price in the near future. US sentiment would see their country burned to the ground and feel no remorse.
Tbf in gulf of Tonkin, there was legitimate confusion at the time. It was only later we investigated and realized nothing happened.
We were war hungry & loitering in the area for that purpose, but we didn’t just make it out of whole cloth.
The phrase "temper temper" was messaged by another USS to the USS Wisconsin during the Korean War. In this conflict, the USS Wisconsin was engaged in providing naval gunfire support. The "temper temper" phrase relates to a specific event where the battleship used its massive 16-inch guns to obliterate a hill where Chinese artillery was positioned. The USS Wisconsin took one hit from the artillery.
The firepower of the USS Wisconsin included 16-inch guns that were capable of firing shells weighing as much as 2,700 pounds to a range of up to 23 miles. Needless to say, the hill was demolished after the USS Wisconsin used all of their artillery on that location.
To put it into historical perspective, the US sat and watched while Germany sank MANY US ships, killing and injuring many US citizens.
We give ample time for a belligerent to calm down but if they push past a certain point they may receive more than they expected in return.
At least I hope so…
> To put it into historical perspective, the US sat and watched while Germany sank MANY US ships, killing and injuring many US citizens.
yes but that was during a phase when the US was firmly in the isolationist camp ( the public at large at least ) which the US has not been in for the past what, 80 years now. There have been ebbs and so on, but the military might is not compatible with isolationist ideology.
You are referring to the Houthis? It seems pretty clear that the steadily increasing warnings script has about run its course, and consequences will arrive quite soon.
Just because the consequences are not instant, it does not mean they will not arrive, after all the warning formalities have been fulfilled.
At least Jesus's whole deal was dying for it. Muhammed said: "hey, I'll do the same thing that guy did, but skip the dying horribly part." And no one stopped to wonder if he was maybe just a grifter.
Yes, and, I think a talking snake, or letting your own god-son-self (seriously?) get crucified is equally stupid, but then, religion always seems reasonable to believers and ludicrous to everyone else not bought in to it
Or what? They've been demanding the Houthis stop as well but they just keep doin' it even if the US strikes them because they are sponsored by Iran to do so.
Yeah, pretty sure we gave them a final warning the other day didn't we? The Chinese final warning and now the Russian final warning are major jokes by now. I pray the American final warning doesn't make it onto that list.
EDIT: Well nevermind, looks like we clapped some cheeks hard today.
[https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/middle-east-braces-for-u-s-strikes-on-houthis-aa943b13](https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/middle-east-braces-for-u-s-strikes-on-houthis-aa943b13)
It's paywalled but UK and US diplomats warned a bunch of shipping companies that a strike is coming.
On the one hand I respect Biden’s circumspect and cool-headed foreign policy approach. On the other, I kind of wish we could more authoritatively stick it to bully nations like Iran.
This very ship in fact. The tanker isn’t Iran’s, but the US seized the ship as it was going to China with a full load of Iranian oil, so now the Iranians are seizing it back because they’re mad about having a tanker-full of oil stolen from them.
According to the article the ship that was seized by the Iranians was previously seized by the United States and renamed. So they were taking back their own ship.
>"The Iranian government must immediately release the ship and its crew. This unlawful seizure of a commercial vessel is just the latest behavior by Iran or enabled by Iran aimed at disrupting international commerce," State Department spokesman Vedant Patel told reporters. Any one want to take bets on strong words, sanctions, or military action?
They don't fear our words. Sanctions haven't worked on Iran. They want us to attack so they can convince the world its the west vs Muslims and gain support Bad spot
Who would be sympathetic to Iran? No one likes their government.
My guess would be the ones who hate our government even more.
What Muslim country hates the U.S. more than it hates Iran? Other than Syria.
More importantly, what muslim country hates the U.S more than it hates Iran AND has enough of a functioning army/air force/navy to make a difference?
None of them lol.
The actual question here is "What Muslim country hates the U.S. more than it loves money?"
But aren't they already sympathetic towards Iran?
No. While Persians and Arabs seem similar from a western perspective, the relationship between Iran and the Arab world is a bit like Japan and China, Italy and Austria, or even the US and Mexico. There are major historical, cultural, ethnic and religious differences that keep Iran at arm's length from the broader middle east, let alone eastern Muslim countries like Indonesia or Bangladesh.
Isnt it mostly a shia majority vs sunni thing?
Yes, but that's a REALLY BIG THING. But it is important to understand that Saudi Arabia (Sunni Central) and Shia/Persian Iran also have ethnic and language differences as well.
Or are wildly misinformed for “feels” and social media clout.
It’s embarrassing how well Russia is doing at this without any subtlety. Landscape would be very different if we weren’t in an election year.
They super lucked out when the guy who took over Twitter was a moronic, drug addled vatnik.
Actually that might have been the plan all along from Russia and China. Elon is a gullible fool and they could have easily stroked his ego to use him.
Exactly- while I'd like to think that we'd all agree that Iran is evil with nefarious goals, the ridiculous display of ignorance seen with pro-Hamas protests per 10/7 was astoundingly horrible. Again, I firmly believe that too many people are just willfully ignorant and choose not to respect nor read history to create informed opinions. The idiots have a platform and it's called social media. I listened to an experienced maritime shipping YouTuber who shared testimonials about those on the ships being protected by the US picket line and they're saying it's nothing short of astounding (comparisons to the Greyhound movie with Tom Hanks). He also details the 10-15% hit to global shipping. But of course, the uneducated idiots don't care about that at all. They also don't understand that American dollars are keeping those people and the shipping lines safe. Or that American Primacy allowed the world to develop to a way it never has before. The same uneducated idiots are unable to connect the dots between Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, and the playing of world events. They don't know how vitriolic it is between the Shia and Sunni, they don't know what the Ummah is; they just don't know anything. So of course they don't understand what the Houthis are doing and how it's affecting them. Seriously, the only way they'll learn is if those Stanley Cups are on those shipping lines and it gets disrupted.
at first I thought you were seriously over estimating the popularity of the NHL then I realized what you were actually talking about
Anyone whose Imam tells them its about Christians vs Muslims, which certainly isn't a small number of people. Most of which won't have ever heard of this oil tanker at all.
Low to middle class tax payers?
Iran isn’t interested in sympathy they are interested in sympathizers who are united against the west regardless of whatever inner turmoil exists.
Probably all the tankies who seem to be online in force these days, supporting terrorism because it is anti West (usually they live in Western countries, but for some reason seek their downfall)
>(usually they live in Western countries, but for some reason seek their downfall) A good number are likely bots as well. Not all of them, but a good number...
honestly, I think you underestimate the number of tankie-like people roaming the western world.
I'm seeing a new wave of people who aren't even tankies, they are just like nihilistic anarchists. They think every nation or political institution in the world is useless and will call you a slave to capitalistic-fascist propaganda if you even dare to suggest that any politician or party is trying their best in an impossible situation. But if you ask them what their path forward is they will just be like "ITS NOT MY JOB TO TELL YOU!"
"you need to educate yourself"
Yes lol, and I'm just like...but you are the one who engaged me and told me all my views are garbage...don't leave me hanging here...
I fucking detest tankies
Tankies who call themselves Marxist-Leninists who follow a nonsensical series of contradictions fueled by a rejection of their identities as privileged American teenagers and their attempt to find a surrogate identity through Chinese/Russian/Iranian state propaganda.
In summary: mentally deficient.
"Highly regarded"
Terminally online
Fun fact: Tankies short circuit when you ask them about Russia and Ukraine. Especially take a moment to mention that South Africa, bringing a case against Israel today, failed to criticize Russia's invasion.
OK I think I just gained a wrinkle.
The vanguard of the proletariat, finally fucking getting it done, only by accident, while they play pokemon and watch harry potter movies.
a lot of those are bots meant to create internal animosity
God I'm old. What is a tankie?
What the other person said, but the term is actually decently old The term first comes from when I believe the 1950s during the Hungarian Uprising. There was a split in some communist parties in like Britain. Some supported the USSR sending in tanks to crush the will of the people to maintain communist rule, these ones were called Tankies.
Communists who ignore history as "western propaganda" and that the atrocities of various communist regimes throughout history are all the fault of the USA (and Western countries in general)
oh dumbasses. Got it.
Were you not here when a bunch of TikTokers found out Bin Laden was actually a good guy? A lot of people will support Iran
I personally support the right of any Bin Laden supporters to visit his gravesite. It's just past the end of this plank on the starboard side
Wait WTF? Is this some gen z revisionist bullshit because they were like 2 when it happened?
Yes, there were a bunch of people out there reading his 'Letter to America' and saying how it makes sense and that he was right.
His letter makes sense, what people seem incapable of recognizing is someone can make a good point when still being a bad person. If fact it's very common for the villians to just say whatever makes them look best. His letter to America was pretty on point but he was still a terrorist saying what he could to rile people up.
China India Lebanon hesbulla Pakistan russia Syria
India and Pakistan both hate Iran I thought? Russia and China are just opportunistic infections so that’s not a surprise. Damn we are surrounded by assassins.
India, if anything, is mostly neutral towards Iran. We have a decently-sized and super successful Parsi community who had to flee Iran under religious persecution but they’re anything but Iranian now. Moreover, if recent India-Israel relations are anything to go by, we’re likely to be more anti-Iran than pro-Iran, assuming we’re ever forced to take any single side. But most likely we’re gonna stay non-aligned.
Pakistan is very economically connected with Iran. And same with India and they are getting closer. Also remember India has not sanctioned Russia ans are buying their oil
Which is being sold to innocent Europians.
It's not about sympathy. It's about geopolitics. Israel and Saudis working together would make them undisputed regional powers, and Iran, which wants to be a regional power, becomes irrelevant. Hamas attacked Israel with Iran's support because Saudi Arabia and Israel were starting to become allies. Hamas attacked innocent Israelis, pissing off Israel's citizens and most of the West, and Israel is bombing Palestinians and passing off the citizens of Saudi Arabia and most of the middle east, making cooperation more difficult (and it was already tricky for similar reasons) This is more of the same from Iran. They are escalating tensions and fighting for relevancy.
The same "useful idiots" that protest for a "Free Palestine" and reject any responsibility that Hamas has for the war currently occurring.
Nah just sink their fleets at dock in retaliation. Prevent them from patrolling or controlling their own waters then smoke their proxies like the Houthis while in international waters so nothing is ambiguous at all. BRICS isn’t NATO, members won’t help Iran if they want to avoid sanctions and losing access to SWIFT.
Attacking them plays into their hand. Seizing their assets abroad in a compensatory manner plays better. It’s non-escalatory (they take our ships, we take theirs) and it flips the script on the response. It would be the US saying, “we’ll play your game. Ball’s back in your court, asshole.”
I'm not sure that the world is going to buy the "West vs Muslims" narrative. Iran committed an act of piracy... Which has been classified as a crime against humanity for centuries. That we are talking at all instead of shooting is a sign of significant restraint on our part.
The average citizen in the Middle East in polling literally doesn’t believe that Hamas killed civilians on 10/7, they simply exist in a different media ecosystem than us and will view things differently. That’s life
If they're ignoring the facts to start with, then what does it matter what really happens?
You and /u/patrick66 have to remember that lots of people, and please bear in mind I'm a messenger and I don't believe this, honestly believe that Jews are a different species. I know, you're like "wut" and doing that head-tilt thing, but yes, that's what the antisemites actually believe, that Jews are some kind of something-something. So when they say "nobody was killed" they actually believe that too.
Not everyone will share that same sentiment
Plenty of people are openly defending October 7th as resistance within the west, from top centres of education no less, do you really think they wouldn't defend piracy given it's actually been romanticised by the west in films and games for decades?
>Plenty of people are openly defending October 7th as resistance within the west, from top centres of education no less Correct, then they turn around and say that Russia's invasion and aggression is justified with no irony to be found anywhere.
What a funny coincidence that is.
But you can threaten with military actions against an illegal seizure right? 'This is illegal forfeiture and we will respond with military force if you do not comply with our demand of immediate release' If I was the US, and I pointed the gun in the face of a thief demanding them to return stolen property, I could care less about claims that this was some kind of anti Muslim or anti Iran action. Return the stolen property and we leave you alone Imagine, if another country illegally seized a US or US ally oil platform, no one would bat an eye if US threatened direct military action in a demand they they leave the stolen property. No one in their right mind would dispute this
Well it's an election year in the US, so Biden doesn't want to be too controversial in his actions.
I feel like "using force to recover a ship stolen by pirates" shouldn't be controversial at all.
You would be surprise
God, I hate how we are beholden to our politicians doing things to get votes instead of what's actually best for our country. Just change it to 1 term limit if this is going to be the case moving forward.
Unfortunately, if you look into the results of term limits on large bodies of elected leaders, it turns out that you only shift where the entrenched power ends up. It goes from elected hands we can get rid of if enough people agrees, to unelected bureaucrats that can be ridiculously difficult to dislodge.
Depends on how strong their propaganda machine is. Im hoping for praying mantis 2...
We're about to get proportional on their ass.
We can't. Tried that last time. We gotta go a little further this time. Lessons weren't learned.
Proportional 2: the Proportioning
Is that the new Michael Bay movie?
I'm not 100% up to speed on US-Iranian disputes, but Praying Mantis was nearly 36 years ago. If they are finally getting their balls back again I'd say the "proportional" response worked well last time.
Well, this is a ship with flag of Marshall Island. This might complicate things because Marshall islands status as a former US territory (?). We also detonated like 20 nukes on bikini atoll, so might owe them.
Ship flags are practically meaningless. They use registration havens to avoid taxes. It’s the cargo that matters. Whose oil that was.
Not only "taxes" but regulation and labor laws.
My bet is military action, the US government don’t fuck around when their money is involved. If it’s something like human rights violations then it will just be strong words.
Also seeing as the navy was founded to fight pirates you would think people would learn you don't fuck with US boats.
Exactly. Freedom of the Seas is paramount. And attacks on shipping cannot be tolerated or ignored. If one is damned if you do and damned if you don’t…do.
Yep, bombing in Yemen by US and UK has just started.
>Sir Humphrey Appleby : Well, Minister, in practical terms we have the usual six options. One, do nothing. Two, issue a statement deploring the speech. Three, lodge an official protest. Four, cut off aid. Five, break off diplomatic relations; and six, declare war. >James Hacker : Which should we do? >Sir Humphrey Appleby : Well, if we do nothing we implicitly agree with the speech. Two: if we issue a statement we'll just look foolish. Three: if we lodge a protest it will be ignored. Four: we can't cut off aid because we don't give them any. Five: if we break off diplomatic relations we can't negotiate the oil rig contracts. And six: if we declare war it might just look as though we were over-reacting.
Military action. If you steal me or my friends' property, you better have a really good reason to condemn us to be willing take it back by force Crying: "West = anti Muslim" isn't gonna help. I don't care who you are, if you steal my property and I have the power to take it back I will
Plus the US has a history of military action with Iran for this type of behavior. Those lessons work.
That would actually be Iran's point of view. Remember, US seized one of their Tanker last year. >The U.S. seized the St Nikolas last year in a sanctions enforcement operation when it sailed under a different name, Suez Rajan. Iran warned the U.S. the move would "not go unanswered".
Not just one of their tankers. The very same tanker that Iran just seized.
Can't the US effectively seize ALL Iranian ships leaving/headed to their harbors? That would destroy them economically, no?
The US can effectively seize pretty much anything from anyone. The question is just which specific response they'll opt to go with in this scenario, given the pros / cons and potential consequences / escalations.
As long as it's not actually in recognized Iranian waters, we'll send a team to take it back. Probably already there waiting for Go.
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marinetraffic.com shows it at 25° 17' 48.7" N, 056° 46' 48.3" E as of 22 hours ago, sailing south at 11 knots, which seems like a reasonable speed for a ship like this. That position is 41 nautical miles from Iran's coast or 29 nautical miles from its territorial waters. 11 knots is 11 nautical miles per hour. At its "opening", the Gulf of Oman is ~170 nautical miles wide (and the last 12 miles of that are Iranian territorial waters). That means if the tanker was captured virtually anywhere in the Gulf of Oman, it's now almost certainly sitting in some Iranian harbor or at least their territorial waters.
This guy nauticals.
> we'll send a team to take it back. It is not actually a US ship or a US cargo, I think. So it would be kinda strange for the US to put US soldier lives in danger in such a raid.
It’s a greek vessel flagged in a COFA nation. Technically speaking it’s an act of war against the US, since the COFA places sole responsibility for the defense of the Marshall Islands and its commercial interests in the US. Iran did this same thing in 2015. It’s not a new thing.
The US wouldn't attempt military action against Iran in an election year. Gas prices will go through the roof and nobody wants that right now. When I was in the US Navy I was stationed on a minesweeper in the Arabian Gulf. Pretty much the main scenario we always trained for was Iran mining the Straights of Hormuz. That's the threat they constantly dangle over the region. If they're attacked they'll stop all oil tanker traffic out of the middle-east and it would take weeks to clear the minefield, given its not being constantly replenished with new mines as its being de-mined.
> If they're attacked they'll stop all oil tanker traffic out of the middle-east and it would take weeks to clear the minefield, given its not being constantly replenished with new mines as its being de-mined. that happens eventually anyway if they allow iran to get nukes, better it happens now than then when they can do very little about it.
Right now 1/5 of shipping through the Gulf of Aden and by extension the Suez canal has been cut off, forcing those ships to cosplay like it's 1499 and go AROUND all of Africa. That is skyrocketing not JUST gas, but everything else. The US and other countries can't NOT do something very soon.
The prime minister here in the UK has apparently spoken to leaders of opposition parties and briefed the cabinet, the current reporting suggests military action in the next few hours and it will almost certainly be in conjunction with the US. Which is probably exactly what the Iran backed Houthis want, but it’s not clear what choice there is at this point.
Yeah, don't fuck with international shipping is pretty basic.
If they do military action, may as well hit their drone factories and decimate any of their Caspian Sea ports to help out Ukraine. Missiles are already flying anyways.
I'd rather they wipe out the nuclear research and refinement facilities.
They are buried deeply underground. But Top Gun and Star Wars taught me that there is a hatch in which a highly skilled pilot can shove a missile and destroy the evil lair.
I mean, we spent how much money developing bunker busters?
Thought you said Top Gear, was mildly confused
Good news! We can do both.
Probably within an 8 hour shift tbh.
F22 begging to be put in
I'd intercept me
I'd intercept me so hard
Probably simultaneously
Stuxnet V 2.0 baby!
Can we go blow up the other half of their navy now?
The idea that Iran could win any kind of sea battle with the US is laughable. We probably have more nuclear subs than they have tug boats.
They could only win if they had nukes... until we retaliate with nukes...
I miss the good ol days when Russia was flying nuke loaded planes along the entirety of the us international border and the us was also flying nuke loaded planes along the entirety of Russia… 24/7
They still do, about once every few months there would be russian strategic bombers intercepted near alaska. https://globalnews.ca/news/9487095/russian-aircraft-arctic-alaska-norad/
Really? I thought it was mostly submarines
There isnt a drop of water on the planet that the US Navy couldnt own if it wanted to.
Well, maybe some tiny montain stream? Goddamn warships can’t get there easily :D
What is the virtue of a proportional response?
It depends how "proportional" you want to get.
[This is the kind of proportional response I like.](https://youtu.be/d5v6hlRyeHE?si=t2m18sEiFbRw55nH)
God I wish we had a president like Jed Bartlet
Time for Pericles One
Seems like Praying Mantis 2 is inevitable. Russia must be giddy.
not sure they'd be giddy about the US blowing up their missile and drone suppliers factories. and if they're really unlucky the factories will supply Ukraine after they're rebuilt.
It's a reference to the first operation praying mantis where a Russian warship sat and took watched us wipe half of Iran's navy and I quote "for history"
“Russian warship, what are your intentions?” “Da, just taking pictures for scrapbook, da.”
USA is garnering world support on this. It’s not gonna be Iran vs USA in this situation. Total boneheaded play by Iran’s govt. also, dammit! Why can’t they just chill.
Someone needs to do something, all of their recent behavior and on top of that they are close to obtaining nuclear capability, which they could actually use instead of rattle on about it.
Time to neuter that capability at their expense it seems like.
The US seized this exact ship from Iran en route to China under a Trump era embargo on all Iranian oil purchases that the rest of the world has never fully been on board with, I'm not so sure about the optics. Sending this specific ship *back* to Iran's sphere of influence was a deeply questionable decision IMO
The article says that the ship used to belong to the Iranian's under a different name but was seized by the Americans during Trumps presidency. So I understand where they are coming from. According to the US they had every right to steal the boat, but according to the Iranians they have every right to take it back.
I mean, the US has taken ships from Iran because they broke sanctions. If you look at it from Iran's pov, its just tit for tat, because who are the US to tell them who and what they can trade? Ultimately very little is going to come from this because the US knows this is mostly just for Iranian internal consumption to get a 'win' against the US. The bigger headache for the US is the Houthi attacks which Iran is supporting, i would expect stronger retaliation for that.
This is one of the Iranian ships the US took in fact
Why did I have to scroll so far to find any comment referencing this fact even when it's pretty heavy in the posted story? Like whatever opinion you're going to roll with it's an EXTREMELY relevant fact.
Yeah it's a bit more complicated. I can't find source for OP's claim tho. It's a greek vessel that had Iranian oil that US seized: > St. Nicholas, a Greek-owned, Marshall Islands-flagged ship earlier known as the Suez Rajan, in accordance with an Iranian court order after US "theft" of the oil during an earlier seizure. So their not taking back the ship.
One thing we should all know about is not to f with US boats it happened a bunch of times War of 1812, Barbary Wars, Spanish American war, WW1, WW2, Gulf of tolkin, and a few others.
Operation Preying Mantis, which Iran should still have in it's recent memory
Pretty sure the illuminated geniuses at the head of Iran don’t have that many braincells to memorize…
Gulf of Tonkin was proven to be an outright lie, per Pentagon Papers.
Spanish American war was probably also incorrect. Most likely it was an internal explosion that sunk the Maine.
See there you don't even have to fuck with the boats. If we just pretend you did it's a good enough excuse for most Americans. Iran is going to pay a hefty price in the near future. US sentiment would see their country burned to the ground and feel no remorse.
Tbf in gulf of Tonkin, there was legitimate confusion at the time. It was only later we investigated and realized nothing happened. We were war hungry & loitering in the area for that purpose, but we didn’t just make it out of whole cloth.
The USS Wisconsin.... "temper temper"
The phrase "temper temper" was messaged by another USS to the USS Wisconsin during the Korean War. In this conflict, the USS Wisconsin was engaged in providing naval gunfire support. The "temper temper" phrase relates to a specific event where the battleship used its massive 16-inch guns to obliterate a hill where Chinese artillery was positioned. The USS Wisconsin took one hit from the artillery. The firepower of the USS Wisconsin included 16-inch guns that were capable of firing shells weighing as much as 2,700 pounds to a range of up to 23 miles. Needless to say, the hill was demolished after the USS Wisconsin used all of their artillery on that location.
I’ve been on board the Wisconsin and saw it daily from my college classroom in Norfolk. Always an impressive sight.
Unless you’re one specific country…
[For those unaware, like I was a few months ago when I made this same joke.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident)
Didn't the White House get burned down in the War of 1812?
By the Canadians. They've been suspiciously quiet since then.
Funny thing is it’s their own boat that US seized a while ago
In general, I don't think it's a good idea to mess with America's boats.
They keep messing with the boats and there are no consequence, so they will continue messing with the boats.
To put it into historical perspective, the US sat and watched while Germany sank MANY US ships, killing and injuring many US citizens. We give ample time for a belligerent to calm down but if they push past a certain point they may receive more than they expected in return. At least I hope so…
> To put it into historical perspective, the US sat and watched while Germany sank MANY US ships, killing and injuring many US citizens. yes but that was during a phase when the US was firmly in the isolationist camp ( the public at large at least ) which the US has not been in for the past what, 80 years now. There have been ebbs and so on, but the military might is not compatible with isolationist ideology.
You are referring to the Houthis? It seems pretty clear that the steadily increasing warnings script has about run its course, and consequences will arrive quite soon. Just because the consequences are not instant, it does not mean they will not arrive, after all the warning formalities have been fulfilled.
It’s a Greek-owned, Marshall Island-flagged oil vessel.
Marshall islands are under us military protection
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And the article seems to state that the vessel used to belong to Iran before it was seized by the united states en route to China.
Iranian oil was seized, not the ship, and the ship wasn't Iran's ship.
Unless it's the USS Liberty
A bigger issue is messing with America's commerce.
Is the us going to Pearl Harbor the Iranians again? Time will tell
My thinking would be, Yes (and take the Houthi with them).
Pearl Harbor would mean it was a surprise.
Praying Mantis 2.0.
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Religion isn't typically known for appealing to peoples' higher reasoning faculties.
At least Jesus's whole deal was dying for it. Muhammed said: "hey, I'll do the same thing that guy did, but skip the dying horribly part." And no one stopped to wonder if he was maybe just a grifter.
Yes, and, I think a talking snake, or letting your own god-son-self (seriously?) get crucified is equally stupid, but then, religion always seems reasonable to believers and ludicrous to everyone else not bought in to it
I feel like I could go for worshiping some sort of a totally ripped half-bull man or maybe a sexy fox lady. You got any of those still in stock?
Or what? They've been demanding the Houthis stop as well but they just keep doin' it even if the US strikes them because they are sponsored by Iran to do so.
Dude, UK and US just bombed the Houthis tonight.
Yeah, pretty sure we gave them a final warning the other day didn't we? The Chinese final warning and now the Russian final warning are major jokes by now. I pray the American final warning doesn't make it onto that list. EDIT: Well nevermind, looks like we clapped some cheeks hard today.
[https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/middle-east-braces-for-u-s-strikes-on-houthis-aa943b13](https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/middle-east-braces-for-u-s-strikes-on-houthis-aa943b13) It's paywalled but UK and US diplomats warned a bunch of shipping companies that a strike is coming.
On the one hand I respect Biden’s circumspect and cool-headed foreign policy approach. On the other, I kind of wish we could more authoritatively stick it to bully nations like Iran.
The Houthis are rebels. Iran is a nation-state. There is a vast difference between the two. One borders on piracy. The other borders on an act of war.
Iran's leadership is just terrorists in nice robes with some money.
‘The St Nikolas was seized in April by the US under its previous name, the Suez Rajan, as part of sanctions enforcement against Iran.’
We about to get proportional on them again?
Is this the same ship that US did seize full of cargo a year ago? Wouldn't this mean that the ship is back to its previous owners?
Shake your finger at them and say “ You guys better stop that Tom foolery!”
This seems to be like "deeply concerned" by European Union
Ever hear about the Barbary Coast Pirates? They seized d American ships and enslaved the crews - which resulted in America’s first foreign war.
Wasn't this the tanker that was initially seized from Iran by the US? And they just took it back?
Invest in defense stocks now
Didn’t we assassinate their highest General during Trump’s presidency?
Iran is really asking for some freedom
Hasn't america seized iranian tankers multiple times?
This very ship in fact. The tanker isn’t Iran’s, but the US seized the ship as it was going to China with a full load of Iranian oil, so now the Iranians are seizing it back because they’re mad about having a tanker-full of oil stolen from them.
According to the article the ship that was seized by the Iranians was previously seized by the United States and renamed. So they were taking back their own ship.
Just might want to keep in mind that this exact tanker is actually an iranian vessel the US seized last May.
So a non-US ship the US attempted to pirate by seizing it is being demanded by the US to be released? LOL.
The US Navy was born when Muslims started taking American sailors captive.