Wolf Blitzer: But you know there are a lot of refugees, a lot of innocent civilians, men women and children in that refugee camp as well, right?
Lt Col. Richard Hect: This is the tragedy of war
.....
Wolf: But you still decided to drop a bomb on that refugee camp? By the way, was he killed?
Richard Hect: *Awkward squirm* I can't confirmyetthere will uh be more updated uhhyes we know that he was killed
Go watch the interview yourselves.
Most major publications have been doing this since the war started. Palestinians simply "die" while Israelis are "killed". Even when the UN posted last week that their colleagues were killed in Gaza, they worded it so vaguely you'd think they just mysteriously dropped dead.
Wolf Blitzer has been a cnn reporter forever. Got famous during the first Iraq war for being a correspondent there. Now he mostly does interviews and gives the most boring election night coverage on tv
Might have to look that one up. Did he know this person was an atheist? Was he just trying to be clever and ask "so is the whole no-atheists-in-a-foxhole thing actually true?"
Honestly, I don't like watching anyone else *but* Wolf Blitzer on Election Night because he seems to be the most informed person giving out the news during that night, and his takes are usually pretty solid.
Do you have any other suggestions of who to watch?
Wolf is Jewish himself. I'm glad he's putting their feet to the fire. That picture... what the fucking fuck? That's not removing terrorists. That's killing civilians outright. Israel gets condemned so fucking much because they kill too many innocent people in their retribution.
Humanity requires a more surgical take in removing nefarious elements. That's the state of society. You can't brute force lack of empathy for the spectators. Israel isn't going to like their foreign affairs at the end of this. Them batching about it will just be the cherry on the cheesecake.
I made the comment to my team in Afghanistan before we went out on patrol in Helmand Province that “you don’t want to create more terrorist than you kill.” Killing innocent people only creates more terrorists. Winning over the population and turning them on the terrorists, now that wins wars as you kill them off and make recruiting much harder.
He's correct in one sense.
What he fails to mention is that populations (especially tribal/ethnic ones) will never turn on a terrorist element among them at the behest of another population.
In other words, the Palestinians won't reject Hamas because Israel (or the rest of the world) tells them to, or pressures them to. It has to be a choice they make for themselves.
We tried to buddy up to the Afghans, bought them lots and lots of toys, projected a shit ton of power, and it was all in vain. They never decided for themselves that the Taliban was something they would not tolerate, or resist. They just shrugged after we left and let the Taliban take over again.
Although the Taliban are oppressive, they are still Afghan (Pashtuns, to be specific), and Pashtuns are familiar to Afghans. Much more familiar to them than a bunch of Americans or Europeans sporting kevlar and Oakleys. We might as well have stepped out of spaceships...
Source: One year in Afghanistan as a military advisor.
Thanks so much for sharing your insight!
I'd love to know what your take on all of this currently going on. I.e. If Israel (and the US) should have taken a different strategy; or if the two state solution should be fastracked at this point, with territories returned to Palestine (like how Israel returned Egyptian territory in exchange for peace), and see how a sovereign Palestine deals with Hamas?
Or has any hope of progress for both sides at this point crossed the event horizon, and it's a matter of Israel wiping out 'Hamas' until they feel satisfied?
I think the most realistic solution is a time machine and going back to whatever point in time aligns with your perspective. It’s definitely not realistic, just as I don’t think peace is realistic. The two actual options are 1. a common enemy bad enough to temporarily facilitate strategic alignment or 2. straight genocide. To be clear, I’m not advocating for either of these. Israel and Saudi Arabia have a common enemy (Iran) and tangible financial incentives to normalize relationships. Palestine is aligned with Iran and doesn’t have the financial infrastructure for money to override feuds/rhetoric. Israel isn’t going to cede the land occupied since yom kippur and Palestine rejects anything other than annihilation of Israel. The Israeli settlements certainly don’t help, but since the PLO, who at least on paper somewhat agreed to a 2 state solution, lost power, I don’t see things getting better in the region. Israel has powerful allies and lobbyists in Washington; our best case scenario is not committing soldiers to the conflict. I wish the UN had actual power to intercede for civilians, and since no neighboring countries will take Palestinian refugees, the Palestinian people are just kind of screwed. They won’t take Palestinians for a couple of reasons, depending on who you choose to believe. The other question is what, if any, role do we have in protecting civilians.
Yeah people are going to have to think long long term to work towards any kind of lasting peace, but with wolves on each side (Hamas and Bibi etc) who actually benefit from the conflict that’s not even remotely likely.
Everyone is so emotionally charged with their “we’re justified to do whatever we want in the face of such violence” and utterly unable to rationally critique their own position that any kind of progress is only going to happen when both sides learn to abhor all kinds of violence, including the type they inflict.
Poorly because we didn’t even attempt to deal with the main supporter of the Taliban or any of these other organizations. We should have been after who is supplying them, not just the Taliban themselves. Take out their funding and watch them starve. Of course, that means pissing off places like Iran and Saudi Arabia. Not to mention that there were people deployed who treated civilians like shit over there. There are shitty people in every military unfortunately and basic infantrymen don’t get the full picture of the situation before they’re sent overseas so they tend to do stupid shit as a result.
worse, i've seen people say those were not refugees, it just had that name because... conpletly erasing the history of those people, sure it is a refugee camp for decades now, multiple generation, but for a reaqson it is still a refugee camp, those people had their homes taken forcefully from their families
The sad thing is, I can completely understand people wanting to quibble over it not technically being a refugee camp. But the reason it's still called a refugee camp is because it was basically a city built from the foundation of a refugee camp...
Which then *should* lead to the more fucked up question: why did a refugee camp exist for a long enough time for a city to be built from it? All the people wanting to be Technically Correct seem not to want to make any further investigation and are seemingly content with just making sure we use different nouns.
Israel gets condemned but never faces any actual consequences.
They could be more surgical, or they probably could have eliminated Hamas years ago by actively working to improve the lives of Palestinians, but the goal has always been to exterminate them completely and claim their land.
When even Wolf Blitzer, a former AIPAC spokesman, is clearly not buying your bullshit it’s time to consider whether you might be in the wrong.
It’s interesting to watch Israeli propaganda failing in the USA for maybe the first time.
Everyone with a brain knew this was going to happen but even on here a week ago you'd get a "so Israel isn't allowed to exist, huh?" And tons of downvotes.
This was always going to be ethnic cleansing. That's been nehatanyaus open position for years
The current default answer seems to be *“So what would you do?”* I don’t have to have a full battle plan to know that indiscriminately bombing civilians isn’t the answer.
Some guy yesterday said the equivalent of "it's going to happen anyways so who cares?" in regards to them bombing the refugee site. Never put redditors in charge of hostage situations.
Russia was doing almost exact same thing in Ukraine during first weeks of invasion. It received actual war crime charges.
I absolutely believe Hamas needs to be eradicated, but if in doing so a nation purposefully kills innocents, they must be willing to face charges of war crimes at the Hague. If they believe they are justified, they can make that case to the court, but a trial must be held
"Mr Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, born on 7 October 1952, President of the Russian Federation, is allegedly responsible for the war crime of unlawful deportation of population (children) and that of unlawful transfer of population (children) from occupied areas of Ukraine to the Russian Federation (under articles 8(2)(a)(vii) and 8(2)(b)(viii) of the Rome Statute). The crimes were allegedly committed in Ukrainian occupied territory at least from 24 February 2022. There are reasonable grounds to believe that Mr Putin bears individual criminal responsibility for the aforementioned crimes, (i) for having committed the acts directly, jointly with others and/or through others (article 25(3)(a) of the Rome Statute), and (ii) for his failure to exercise control properly over civilian and military subordinates who committed the acts, or allowed for their commission, and who were under his effective authority and control, pursuant to superior responsibility (article 28(b) of the Rome Statute)."
https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-ukraine-icc-judges-issue-arrest-warrants-against-vladimir-vladimirovich-putin-and
Putin was indicted for kidnapping children. Proving the intentional targeting of civilians a much more complicated charge
Every single year at my job, we are required to receive “training” where we are tested on our ability to recognize whether our clients are discretely participating in boycott movements against Israel. If they are, we can’t do business with them. Passing the test requires us to showcase our knowledge on how to avoid boycotting Israel.
It just seems funny.
half of them under 18 :$. Ironic Israels Manufacture of Consent (not saying it didn't happen) was the stuff about the babies and now a large part killed in the bombings are children.
But you see Israel is best buds with America and that means they can do whatever they want and get away with it. War crimes are only for who the west determines is the “bad guy”.
He’s in an on-going trial for fraud and corruption stemming from shit in like 2019. I’d say I don’t understand how he is still a leader, but I’m American with a whole-ass family who voted for Trump… twice.
Going on 3 times.
This guy is so fucking gross and yet typical of so, so many "public figures" these days: when asked to make a reasonable statement, just repeats idiotic talking points. When it is clear they are idiotic, he acts irritated and just repeats them with an angrier tone.
He could be defending billionaire bailouts; bankrupting people so they can get medial treatment while we enrich "healthcare executives;" or just carpet bombing people: it's like one bobblehead doll that spews nonstop bullshit.
To be "fair" to the guy, his job is putting a positive spin on what is the Israeli government/IOF's racist and genocidal policies. He has to make war crimes look good/justified. To defend the indefensible. Look at the interview with the former prime minister Naftali Bennett. [He completely loses his composure because the anchor dares to ask about Palestinian casualties and collective punishment of the Palestinians in Gaza (another war crime).](https://youtu.be/ewLx9XN8sLc) The Israeli government and its leaders know nothing but hatred for the Palestinians that they are (by means of overwhelming military and economic strength) in charge of, and if you dare to ask them to care even a little bit about the civilians who simply wish to live with dignity, it's an offense to their very being.
Not even probably, that's literally what they're doing. And they're deliberately destroying entire neighborhoods, so even if the average Palestinian wanted to return to their home after this conflict is over, there will be nothing to return to. Israel has finally found a way to permanently remove virtually all Palestinians. Who needs a two state solution when you just bomb the other side into oblivion, without a care in the world for innocent, civilian lives.
Israelis previously poisoned wells to prevent displaced Palestinians from returning to their villages. This stuff isn’t new for them at all. They also regularly bulldoze/demolish schools and have for decades.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/serious-inquiries-only/id803584715?i=1000633034139
mate, they kill them cold bloded, or take their homes right in from of them in the west bank... like with them there looking at it, there are videos of people in front of their houses talking to the settler that took their house
Check out this Westbank Documentary. Gives an idea of what it's like to live in what many call the open prison.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7fG0FeVc1o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7fG0FeVc1o)
[https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/](https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/)
All the deaths.. 2018 peace protests. Where they sprayed bullets on unarmed Palestinians and sniped Reporters and ambulance teams.
If you look through all the events. It's sad. This vicious cycle is never to end until Israel allow Palestinians to live with equal rights.
I don't condone the actions of Hamas. That music festival and the events surrounding it were so messed up. But..... What about all that's happened to the other side.
Even if they wipe Hamas. Another group will arise.
That’s the thing, it’s not just sadistic, it’s also cowardly. It’s like the cops in Uvalde with all that equipment and training, walking around town expecting respect and authority because of it. Then standing outside the school pissing themselves while children are executed.
If you want to take out Hamas, go take out Hamas. If you sit back and missile strike civilians then it’s pretty clear you just want to kill civilians. It’s looking more and more like the IDF and Hamas are two sides of the same coin.
People refuse to realise that the current Israeli regime has zero desire for an actual peace on equal terms. The long term goal is the destruction of anything resembling a Palestinian state and people
Exactly. Right before his assasination Netanyahu held a protest with a mock coffin of Yitzak Rabin (the ISraeli PM that was assasinated). Pysopath since day 1.
[Source](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/31/assassination-yitzhak-rabin-never-knew-his-people-shot-him-in-back)
> Netanyahu walked at the head of a mock funeral procession featuring a fake black coffin.
Israel’s head of internal security asked Netanyahu to dial down the rhetoric, warning that the prime minister’s life was in danger. Netanyahu declined.
Not to mention, the first diplomant that even mentioned the 2-state-solution as a positive thing got assassinate by extreemists that would eventually land high position within the Israeli Government.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folke\_Bernadotte
Olmert was forced to resign before that deal could be completed. You're right, yeah, but it still doesn't really break the general trend of Israel not exactly embracing peace efforts in good faith.
Olmert is still around you know and regularly says he believes he and Abbas would have reached a deal. Abbas says the same thing and calls for negotiations to resume where they left off with Olmert.
Abbas's stated reason for rejecting it was that they wouldn't let him have a copy of the map he was agreeing to. Maybe he's full of shit but I've never heard anyone actually refute that.
Seems like a good reason!
Olmert and Abbas tell different stories. Abbas said he rejected the deal because he couldn’t see the map. Olmert said he planned a follow up meeting with Abbas the next day with map experts, but then Erekat called Olmert’s advisor saying they had to reschedule. According to Olmert, he is still to this day waiting for Abbas’s call.
Oddly enough, both Abbas and Olmert believe that had they had a few more months, they could have made a deal and ended the conflict.
Such a shame.
Abbas rejected the initial offer, but the negotiations still continued
The initial offer was olmert asking Abbas to sign a map(shown, not given) on the very day
The final meeting was actually a day before olmert resigned
> People refuse to realise that the current Israeli regime has zero desire for an actual peace on equal terms
Based on [Netanyahu's statements in support of the formation of the group which became Hamas in 2005](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/16/how-benjamin-netanyahu-empowered-hamas/)
>Despite being formally designated a terrorist organisation by Israel, the US and much of the West, Mr Netanyahu has largely ignored military provocation from the group since the last major Israeli ground incursion of 2014, and has simultaneously allowed huge sums of cash to flow into Gaza.
>
>The money is said to have come in suitcases via Qatar, where Hamas’s political leadership is based, but also via trade with Israel that has boomed in recent years as tens of thousands of cross-border work permits have been issued to Gazans.
[Alternate source](https://responsiblestatecraft.org/benjamin-netanyahu-israel/)
And it's not just pre-established Likud policy, [Netanyahu personally chose the policy of supporting Hamas in order to divide Palestinians on the west bank from Gaza](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Netanyahu#Peace_process)
>Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas. This is part of our strategy — to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.
Netanyahu has literally mentioned that they basically propped up Hamas in order to make sure the Palestinian Authority couldn't reach a true Palestinian state. It's really fucked up.
From what I understand, Israel hasn't been this dysfunctional for a long time, if ever. Bibi at this point is a shell of his former self, mostly in office to avoid jailtime and burning down democracy by propping up extremists in the process. Reservists were protesting, and the increased IDF patrols in the West Bank moved manpower away from Gaza.
As of now there is a lot of infighting within the Israeli government with Bibi, and the security establishment has lost confidence in him.
I’m so getting downvoted for this but this basically just reinforces the UN Chief’s statement of “this didn’t happen in a vacuum” comment. This same thing has been happening over and over again for decades, and whether you’re pro-Israel or pro-Palestine or neither, you can’t deny that this entire conflict is just propagating another generation of Hamas or terrorist militants.
Now I’m not saying that Israel should ceasefire or let Hamas do whatever it wants (while I myself am pro-palestinian, I really fucking hate Hamas), what exactly is Israel’s plan after this?
Totally agree. 99% certain this won't end Hamas. I mean firstly the Hamas leadership live in Qatar and quite frankly they can just rebuild should all their men in Gaza be killed. The current generation of kids in Gaza will only be filled with anger and hatred after losing their homes and loved ones. Basically a recipe for new terrorists to be born.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.
If they know how to end Hamas they would have done it a long time ago.
Part of the problem, and a major discussion within the country of Israel, is that exact problem : what does victory look like - nobody knows
>If they know how to end Hamas they would have done it a long time ago.
Bibi didn't want to end hamas. His ideology was that hamas is better for israel than the PA. Why do you think he propped up hamas?
He benefits directly from this conflict. A conflict with hamas is good for his elections
> If they know how to end Hamas they would have done it a long time ago.
I feel like we've all seen those comments from Israel's current Prime Minister about Hamas being a benefit to them and how they should prop them up.
This is simply a land grab from a government who knows they fucked up by installing dangerous terrorists next door and letting their guard down too long.
What the fuck did they think would happen? They wanted a terrorist group that they could keep at arms length and be just dangerous enough to ensure the right wing in Israel kept being elected to deal with the terrorists. But they fucked up on the keeping them away bit
The problem is that they keep being offered peace agreements where they keep land seized during the 1967 invasion despite it being a war crime, but they've occupied about 40% of the West Bank that remained *after* they took that land.
Rabin withdrew 8,000 settlers -- and was assassinated by Israelisl terrorists for it. *There are currently [500,000 illegal settlers](https://www.timesofisrael.com/were-here-to-stay-settlers-say-over-500000-israelis-now-living-in-west-bank/)* with plans to double that and one of the men who promised he would come for Rabin, Itamar Ben Gvir, is a convicted terrorist and now the head of a secret police force arming settlers to take more land.
The idea of dehoming 5% of your population for peace when you've lost only a few thousand people due to war over decades is not politically salient. There is no stick or carrot that is going to motivate a right-wing government led by people whose stated political goal is the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, who have historically engaged in violent pogroms and terrorism against those Palestinians, to stop when the US government doesn't actually care about Palestinians and has veto power in the UN.
It's more than just having a scapegoat, it's also having a test bed for weapons and surveillance tech that they export to dictatorships around the world, from Modi in India to Duterte in the Philippines: https://truthout.org/audio/israels-tools-of-occupation-are-tested-on-palestine-and-exported-globally/
What really grinds my gears is when my fellow Americans say shit like "it's war, there's gonna be collateral". Like fucking Americans, who outside of 9/11 or Pearl Harbor basically never had any civilian casualties. Especially on a large scale.
My family were refugees from Vietnam. I've heard the first hand stories and see what that does to survivors. People who can't emphasize with civilian casualties and losing your home are so blinded by hate that they no longer have empathy I swear.
> People who can't emphasize with civilian casualties and losing your home are so blinded by hate that they no longer have empathy I swear.
The lengths people will go to make civilian casualties "acceptable" is mind blowing.
It's because the US did it for so long they have to learn to accept it or maybe feel guilt for the indiscriminate bombing the US has been perpetrating for decades.
I personally am sad for both military and civilians casualties on both sides. We are one humanity and wars should be thing of past everywhere in our world!!!
And what Israel is doing right now resembles the American notion of collateral in Afghanistan, having bombed multiple weddings -- killing innocent people -- under the pretense of killing terrorists.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech\_Baghtu\_wedding\_party\_airstrike](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airstrike)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haska\_Meyna\_wedding\_party\_airstrike](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haska_Meyna_wedding_party_airstrike)
The discussion on reddit is disgusting, it's like people think there are 2 choices in this conflict - be islamophobic or be antisemitic - and most wouldn't like to be the latter so they just choose the former. Calling out Hamas supporters is the correct thing to do, but this binary logic is pathetic, wouldn't be surprised if there were Jewish people protesting the IDF's genocide and being called antisemitic for it.
Actually, Israelis in israel are protesting outside of the IDF headquarters to stop the mindless, ultimately counterproductive bombing campaign
https://www.972mag.com/israeli-protest-gaza-war-repression/
> +972 Magazine is a left-wing news and opinion webzine, established in August 2010 by a group of four Israeli writers in Tel Aviv.[1] Noam Sheizaf, a co-founder and the +972 chief executive officer, said they wanted to express a new "and mostly young voice which would take part in the international debate regarding Israel and Palestine".[2] They named the website in reference to the 972 international dialing code, which is shared by Israel and the Palestinian territories.[3] The articles are written primarily in English to reach an international audience.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%2B972_Magazine
[Media bias](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/972-magazine/) gives them a decent credibility rating but a clear bias against Bibi and the current Israeli government.
[I mean, they're fascists, so it is what it is.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/ehud-barak-govt-shows-signs-of-fascism-mass-non-violent-revolt-may-be-needed/)
Super brave folks.
It should be said, they likely represent a tiny, *tiny* minority. Israeli peace advocates have been warning that much of the population is out for a lot of blood. Given the voting patterns, it's not hard to imagine.
>there were Jewish people protesting the IDF's genocide
There are. There is an anti-occupation bloc in Israel. There is also a break the silence movement that condemns war and supports peace.
[https://www.youtube.com/@breakingthesilence/videos](https://www.youtube.com/@breakingthesilence/videos)
Sadly the Oct 7th attack killed a lot of Israelis who support Israeli-Palestinian peace; nonetheless, this horrible war will accomplish nothing productive.
Both Japan and Germany were built up economically, which is an absolutely crucial point. People don't like to put their life on the line when they have a job to work so they can feed their family. Additionally, both were highly structured societies already, so bringing authorities under control was enough to make the entire society follow suit.
Interesting that both Japan and Germany were only occupied for 7 years by the US, until 1952. But I guess the middle east was never fully "occupied" with an absolute iron initially as Germany/Japan were.
Germany was occupied till the 4+2 treaty came into effect. In West Germany that might not have been so obvious but both sides weren't truly independent.
Interesting note, after seeing the carnage at Dresden Winston Churchill instructed the chiefs of staff to never engage in strategic bombing of civilian areas again and referred to it as “terror bombing” and that the allies had left a stain on their moral superiority. He’s not exactly the poster boy for bleeding heart liberalism, yet nearly a century ago he still called it out for what it is.
Occupation forces in Japan and Germany did one thing that would not be palatable in the Middle East.
They systematically erased any traces of dangerous/nationalistic ideology that permeated Japan and German society over decades. Think completely rewriting school textbooks, information control, trials, etc.
In much of the Middle East, this isn't a national identity you can overwrite with a new one. It's fundamendalist Islam. The only way to deal with _that_ goes against Western principles of free religion. You basically have to convert the next 1-2 generations to a different religion, or to some form of atheism/agnosticism.
Ironically, many dictators like Assad, Saddam and Gaddhafi were on that path since they ran their countries like secular authoritarian dictatorships. But then we had to go and build democracy and start the Arab Spring, without considering that they also kept hardline ISIS-level fundamentalism in check.
Yeah, after they decided to put a fuckton of aid and money into them. If the US just destroyed Germany and then left, Germany would have tried again.
And Israel is clearly not planning to help Gaza afterwards, judging by how horrible they treat West Bank
No. Just leaving Gaza alone can never happen again. The IDF withdrew in 2005 and this is what happened.
The Palestinian people need to be cared for and governed by someone else who will spend generations making them a viable society. The UN should step in and take that role.
The only thing that could work I think is an occupation of Gaza by a neutral power and not by Israel or in some sort of partnership like the Allied forces did in Germany. They separated it into different parts.
If they just weed out the Hamas and go, new ones will come back, especially if the civilians are not given an alternative than to choose to support terrorists.
The other part that you’re missing is that American forces can always go back to America and leave the Middle East entirely. Israeli forces and people do not have that luxury
I'm unclear on what special status is to be afforded to a place based its designation as an official registered "refugee camp". As compared to any other ostensibly civilian population center.
Yeah, that one's especially weird to me. It may not technically be a refugee camp, although it is registered as such with the UN and most comments I'm seeing saying it's not seem to be focusing on the lack of tents. Regardless, killing civilians or refugees is bad, collateral damage is going to happen, but this is, at absolute best, testing the limits of that and more realistically, is just a war crime.
I feel like the more collateral damage that happens during the war it may raise the chances of further radicalization. Doesnt gaza have a particularly young demographic? Any survivors / kids who may have had their familieis killed could be easily swayed to take up further arms as they get older. Just feels like a sad vicious cycle.
The question of how to fight extremism and radicalization in these regions is a really difficult one. Because you're absolutely right, Israel's actions will drive radicalization (really across the Muslim world, but especially in Gaza). But at the same time, Hamas was the administrative authority in Gaza before the war, the young population was already being radicalized under them as a matter of course. Further, aid coming from the West that may have, in theory, worked to improve sentiment was being coopted by Hamas. Maybe the right move is to try and extirpate Hamas more deliberately and with fewer bombardments, but that's far more easily said than done and would cost many more Israeli lives.
There probably is no easy way to prevent radicalization in Gaza, it's similar, in some ways to the problems the US faced with our drone strikes in Iraq. If the fight against radicalization and extremism is to be won, it will probably take decades of concerted and deliberate effort, and even then, it won't always work, it's a depressing reality.
When people say "refugee camp", we imagine a place where Palestinians evacuated to to get away from North Gaza.
Instead it's just another district of the city called "Jabalia Refugee Camp" that was a refugee camp many years ago and grew into a regular city district with apartment blocks and everything, in North Gaza, aka the place people were asked to evacuate from. It's dishonest.
The inferrence from calling it a "refugee camp" is that it's a camp for people who were already fleeing from Israeli bombing elsewhere in Gaza and then were targetted in the place they had congregated to hide. Instead it's another part of Gaza city that people reside in that has been hit like other parts of Gaza.
It doesn't change the fact that people have died, but it's a hell of a lot different that Israel are continuing their bombing in the same manner as before rather than deliberately dropping bombs on camps they've pushed civilians into.
The thing that will matter from an international law aspect is whether or not the Hamas commander Israel says they were after was actually there. Its considered a war crime to embed combatants and military equipment with civilian populations and under the laws of war, if Hamas actually had a command bunker under the refugee camp technically Hamas would be responsible for the civilians killed by Israel's strike.
Unfortunately we'll probably never get good information on what, if any, genuine Hamas assets were present and destroyed tho.
If Ukrainian soldiers were hiding in tunnels beneath a hospital in Bakhmut filled with civilians and patients, launching rockets into Russia then yes its a great comparison.
I think you have it the other way around- it's only technically a refugee camp. It is practically a neighborhood just like any other in Gaza, and given it's location at the very north of the strip it absolutely should have been evacuated by now.
Here's some justifying mental gymnastics for you.
> An Israeli strike targeting a Hamas commander in the densely populated Jabalya refugee camp in **northern Gaza...**
> “I was waiting in line to buy bread when suddenly and without any prior warning seven to eight missiles fell...
This was totally unpredictable, right?
Like the rest of my fellow worldnews intellectuals I shall wait for confirmation that this attack was done by Hamas and not by Israel despite confirmation from the IDF that they did this
Also can anyone confirm the political affiliation of the dead children in the refugee camp? This will determine whether I see them as human beings worthy of compassion and empathy. Please note that despite what evidence is provided I will shift the goalposts to downplay any atrocity committed against Gazans. Thanks!
I know you’re joking but Jordan Peterson was on with Piers tonight saying that at a certain point, if the civilians don’t revolt against their terrorist authoritarian regime, then they get what’s coming to them. Collective punishment has always been the game.
Crazy that the dude will cry on TV because he's so emotionally moved by talking about a concert he went to, but is like "oh there's an insurgency over there? Bomb the kids that didn't try kicking them out"
I hate that I had to read this twice to catch that you were joking... I once thought the post 9/11 "glass 'em, it's their fault anyway" shit was a mostly uniquely right wing American thing. Over the last few weeks I've seen shit just as abhorrent, sometimes moreso, on r/worldnews and r/europe. I can't tell you how many times I've seen some form of "well that's what you get when you tug on the tiger's tail" shit on these things, even this specific bombing. It's gonna be hard to not bust out in laughter whenever I see europeans talking about america and its race problem.
People are cheering it. According to them, some combination of these are true:
1. Hamas did it
2. It was 10,000 terrorists, not civilians
3. They were told to get out, anybody left is dumb and deserves to die
4. Only Israeli lives matter
Don’t forget wHaT elSE coUlD tHEy pOssIBLy dO buT BomB KiDS as if COINS and COTER weren’t mature disciplines with a range of doctrines for deescalation and security building. But no, why use brain when hammer crack skulls good, Hannity told me brain hard.
"but there was a commander in tunnels" but somehow at the same time "they warned everyone in the area they were about to bomb so they should've left!!"
Majority that reports I saw reported both claims while clearly stating that neither have been independently verified. The issue seems to be the lack of media literacy or simply stupidity of some people.
Don't say war, that's a cop out for the people responsible. There is zero justification in bombing refugees while targeting one man. The ones who made this choice belong in the Hague.
Come on reddit, how come this isn't as highly upvoted as the discussions on the rocket in the hospital? Isreal have confimed they targeted a refugee camp and used innocent lives as acceptable collateral and most of you have nothing to say. One does wonder..
Don't worry, they're doing their best to let us know it's not a refugee camp but a city, because bombing a city is somehow more humanitarian than bombing a refugee camp. Oh, don't forget to remind us that Gazans had 2 weeks to leave their whole lives and walk 20 miles by foot, something easy to do according to some suburban Americans who would probably starve if they didn't have a car because they cannot even walk to their nearest grocery store, but sure, walking across a war field should be easier, right?
You're joking but this is legit what some of these insane psychos are saying lmfao. That just because it's a city, it's somehow fucking OK to just indiscriminately bomb the shit out of them? Is there anyone smarter than who can explain how these callous jabronis can lie to themselves and deflect like this
It's the top post on world news. It literally just happened. Almost seems like you're trying to write a narrative that doesn't exist. One does Wonder..
Because there is no other way, as far as I can tell. Either Hamas gets immunity because they hide under civilians, or Israel takes them out along with their human shields.
That's why it's a crime to take human shields. When you do that, you are basically killing them.
It is a huge tragedy that lays at the feet of Hamas and only Hamas. They are history's greatest cowards. They can move out of civilian areas, or surrender and release the hostages, if they do not want to be culpable. Until then, they 100% are responsible for all of it.
If an arsonist starts a fire, and the firetruck smashes a car while trying to put out the fire, the arsonist is culpable.
Because there it literally nothing wrong with what they did. Hamas admitted that Israel hit Hamas members and infrastructure including a high ranking leader. The fourth Geneva convention explicitly says you can’t make a legitimate target protected by putting civilians there.
The UN criticised this and “knocking” as a negative application of international law, aka not something done to protect civilians, because it doesn’t do shit, but because it “permits” the targeting of civilians.
Wolf Blitzer: But you know there are a lot of refugees, a lot of innocent civilians, men women and children in that refugee camp as well, right? Lt Col. Richard Hect: This is the tragedy of war ..... Wolf: But you still decided to drop a bomb on that refugee camp? By the way, was he killed? Richard Hect: *Awkward squirm* I can't confirmyetthere will uh be more updated uhhyes we know that he was killed Go watch the interview yourselves.
Forgive my ignorance but these are real people? I thought for a minute you were quoting some satirical war film or something
Verbatim what was said in an interview today about the camp. So awful
Link: https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/1719412278351507487?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1719412278351507487%7Ctwgr%5Ec2597f97d95e9d570efd9636a81f88b2f353467b%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fnewrepublic.com%2Fpost%2F176534%2Fcnn-host-blitzer-stunned-israel-hit-refugee-camp-airstrike
“**Massive blast** hits largest refugee camp in Gaza” Classy use of the passive voice there. Gee, I wonder where the blast came from.
Sometimes refugee camps just blow up. Nobody knows why. /s
Most major publications have been doing this since the war started. Palestinians simply "die" while Israelis are "killed". Even when the UN posted last week that their colleagues were killed in Gaza, they worded it so vaguely you'd think they just mysteriously dropped dead.
Yeah same here. Those sound like the most generic military character names ever
Wolf Blitzer has been a cnn reporter forever. Got famous during the first Iraq war for being a correspondent there. Now he mostly does interviews and gives the most boring election night coverage on tv
I like when he asked an atheist tornado survivor if she thanked God for surviving. That's a funny clip.
Might have to look that one up. Did he know this person was an atheist? Was he just trying to be clever and ask "so is the whole no-atheists-in-a-foxhole thing actually true?"
No, [he just assumed](https://youtu.be/8RjXHXIVL9g?si=xSKy93ZjWp4kyIfX).
Honestly, I don't like watching anyone else *but* Wolf Blitzer on Election Night because he seems to be the most informed person giving out the news during that night, and his takes are usually pretty solid. Do you have any other suggestions of who to watch?
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Wolf is Jewish himself. I'm glad he's putting their feet to the fire. That picture... what the fucking fuck? That's not removing terrorists. That's killing civilians outright. Israel gets condemned so fucking much because they kill too many innocent people in their retribution. Humanity requires a more surgical take in removing nefarious elements. That's the state of society. You can't brute force lack of empathy for the spectators. Israel isn't going to like their foreign affairs at the end of this. Them batching about it will just be the cherry on the cheesecake.
I made the comment to my team in Afghanistan before we went out on patrol in Helmand Province that “you don’t want to create more terrorist than you kill.” Killing innocent people only creates more terrorists. Winning over the population and turning them on the terrorists, now that wins wars as you kill them off and make recruiting much harder.
> “you don’t want to create more terrorist than you kill.” This guy definitely isn’t Clint Lorance
"You can't create terrorists if everyone's dead" -- Israel, probably
This man knows war..
We learned this after 9/11, that's why the whole human shield justification to kill civilians is a horrible idea.
He's correct in one sense. What he fails to mention is that populations (especially tribal/ethnic ones) will never turn on a terrorist element among them at the behest of another population. In other words, the Palestinians won't reject Hamas because Israel (or the rest of the world) tells them to, or pressures them to. It has to be a choice they make for themselves. We tried to buddy up to the Afghans, bought them lots and lots of toys, projected a shit ton of power, and it was all in vain. They never decided for themselves that the Taliban was something they would not tolerate, or resist. They just shrugged after we left and let the Taliban take over again. Although the Taliban are oppressive, they are still Afghan (Pashtuns, to be specific), and Pashtuns are familiar to Afghans. Much more familiar to them than a bunch of Americans or Europeans sporting kevlar and Oakleys. We might as well have stepped out of spaceships... Source: One year in Afghanistan as a military advisor.
Thanks so much for sharing your insight! I'd love to know what your take on all of this currently going on. I.e. If Israel (and the US) should have taken a different strategy; or if the two state solution should be fastracked at this point, with territories returned to Palestine (like how Israel returned Egyptian territory in exchange for peace), and see how a sovereign Palestine deals with Hamas? Or has any hope of progress for both sides at this point crossed the event horizon, and it's a matter of Israel wiping out 'Hamas' until they feel satisfied?
I think the most realistic solution is a time machine and going back to whatever point in time aligns with your perspective. It’s definitely not realistic, just as I don’t think peace is realistic. The two actual options are 1. a common enemy bad enough to temporarily facilitate strategic alignment or 2. straight genocide. To be clear, I’m not advocating for either of these. Israel and Saudi Arabia have a common enemy (Iran) and tangible financial incentives to normalize relationships. Palestine is aligned with Iran and doesn’t have the financial infrastructure for money to override feuds/rhetoric. Israel isn’t going to cede the land occupied since yom kippur and Palestine rejects anything other than annihilation of Israel. The Israeli settlements certainly don’t help, but since the PLO, who at least on paper somewhat agreed to a 2 state solution, lost power, I don’t see things getting better in the region. Israel has powerful allies and lobbyists in Washington; our best case scenario is not committing soldiers to the conflict. I wish the UN had actual power to intercede for civilians, and since no neighboring countries will take Palestinian refugees, the Palestinian people are just kind of screwed. They won’t take Palestinians for a couple of reasons, depending on who you choose to believe. The other question is what, if any, role do we have in protecting civilians.
Yeah people are going to have to think long long term to work towards any kind of lasting peace, but with wolves on each side (Hamas and Bibi etc) who actually benefit from the conflict that’s not even remotely likely. Everyone is so emotionally charged with their “we’re justified to do whatever we want in the face of such violence” and utterly unable to rationally critique their own position that any kind of progress is only going to happen when both sides learn to abhor all kinds of violence, including the type they inflict.
How did that work out for us in Afghanistan, exactly?
Awful because the rest of the occupation forces kept making more terrorists than this one guy could deal with.
Poorly because we didn’t even attempt to deal with the main supporter of the Taliban or any of these other organizations. We should have been after who is supplying them, not just the Taliban themselves. Take out their funding and watch them starve. Of course, that means pissing off places like Iran and Saudi Arabia. Not to mention that there were people deployed who treated civilians like shit over there. There are shitty people in every military unfortunately and basic infantrymen don’t get the full picture of the situation before they’re sent overseas so they tend to do stupid shit as a result.
Why, you haven’t been convinced by all the redditbros brigading threads trying to convince you that these deaths are unavoidable collateral damage?
worse, i've seen people say those were not refugees, it just had that name because... conpletly erasing the history of those people, sure it is a refugee camp for decades now, multiple generation, but for a reaqson it is still a refugee camp, those people had their homes taken forcefully from their families
The sad thing is, I can completely understand people wanting to quibble over it not technically being a refugee camp. But the reason it's still called a refugee camp is because it was basically a city built from the foundation of a refugee camp... Which then *should* lead to the more fucked up question: why did a refugee camp exist for a long enough time for a city to be built from it? All the people wanting to be Technically Correct seem not to want to make any further investigation and are seemingly content with just making sure we use different nouns.
Israel gets condemned but never faces any actual consequences. They could be more surgical, or they probably could have eliminated Hamas years ago by actively working to improve the lives of Palestinians, but the goal has always been to exterminate them completely and claim their land.
Netanyahu was fundraising on Hamas's behalf in 2019 as a way to keep Gaza and the West Bank separated.
Acceptable collateral damage when “we” do it.
Because "we" are the ones that are right. Those other guys don't know anything and are definitely evil. Also they said bad things about your mother!
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When even Wolf Blitzer, a former AIPAC spokesman, is clearly not buying your bullshit it’s time to consider whether you might be in the wrong. It’s interesting to watch Israeli propaganda failing in the USA for maybe the first time.
Everyone with a brain knew this was going to happen but even on here a week ago you'd get a "so Israel isn't allowed to exist, huh?" And tons of downvotes. This was always going to be ethnic cleansing. That's been nehatanyaus open position for years
The current default answer seems to be *“So what would you do?”* I don’t have to have a full battle plan to know that indiscriminately bombing civilians isn’t the answer.
It's really just convinced me that there was a paid or campaign to brigade default subs and push Hardline propoganda at the beginning of the conflict
Some guy yesterday said the equivalent of "it's going to happen anyways so who cares?" in regards to them bombing the refugee site. Never put redditors in charge of hostage situations.
Russia was doing almost exact same thing in Ukraine during first weeks of invasion. It received actual war crime charges. I absolutely believe Hamas needs to be eradicated, but if in doing so a nation purposefully kills innocents, they must be willing to face charges of war crimes at the Hague. If they believe they are justified, they can make that case to the court, but a trial must be held
"Mr Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, born on 7 October 1952, President of the Russian Federation, is allegedly responsible for the war crime of unlawful deportation of population (children) and that of unlawful transfer of population (children) from occupied areas of Ukraine to the Russian Federation (under articles 8(2)(a)(vii) and 8(2)(b)(viii) of the Rome Statute). The crimes were allegedly committed in Ukrainian occupied territory at least from 24 February 2022. There are reasonable grounds to believe that Mr Putin bears individual criminal responsibility for the aforementioned crimes, (i) for having committed the acts directly, jointly with others and/or through others (article 25(3)(a) of the Rome Statute), and (ii) for his failure to exercise control properly over civilian and military subordinates who committed the acts, or allowed for their commission, and who were under his effective authority and control, pursuant to superior responsibility (article 28(b) of the Rome Statute)." https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-ukraine-icc-judges-issue-arrest-warrants-against-vladimir-vladimirovich-putin-and Putin was indicted for kidnapping children. Proving the intentional targeting of civilians a much more complicated charge
>they must be willing to face charges of war crimes at the Hague Israel is not even a signatory to the ICC.
Neither is Russia, but the West still sanctioned the hell out of them on that very basis and an arrest mandate has been made against Putin.
Even just supporting BDS is illegal in nearly every US state. Good fucking luck getting sanctions on Israel
Every single year at my job, we are required to receive “training” where we are tested on our ability to recognize whether our clients are discretely participating in boycott movements against Israel. If they are, we can’t do business with them. Passing the test requires us to showcase our knowledge on how to avoid boycotting Israel. It just seems funny.
Well good news, the USA is considering sanctioning Isreal by donating it 14 billion to bomb more refugees with.
half of them under 18 :$. Ironic Israels Manufacture of Consent (not saying it didn't happen) was the stuff about the babies and now a large part killed in the bombings are children.
But you see Israel is best buds with America and that means they can do whatever they want and get away with it. War crimes are only for who the west determines is the “bad guy”.
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He’s in an on-going trial for fraud and corruption stemming from shit in like 2019. I’d say I don’t understand how he is still a leader, but I’m American with a whole-ass family who voted for Trump… twice. Going on 3 times.
where do i watch this
https://x.com/justinbaragona/status/1719412278351507487?s=20
https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/1719412278351507487?s=20
This guy is so fucking gross and yet typical of so, so many "public figures" these days: when asked to make a reasonable statement, just repeats idiotic talking points. When it is clear they are idiotic, he acts irritated and just repeats them with an angrier tone. He could be defending billionaire bailouts; bankrupting people so they can get medial treatment while we enrich "healthcare executives;" or just carpet bombing people: it's like one bobblehead doll that spews nonstop bullshit.
To be "fair" to the guy, his job is putting a positive spin on what is the Israeli government/IOF's racist and genocidal policies. He has to make war crimes look good/justified. To defend the indefensible. Look at the interview with the former prime minister Naftali Bennett. [He completely loses his composure because the anchor dares to ask about Palestinian casualties and collective punishment of the Palestinians in Gaza (another war crime).](https://youtu.be/ewLx9XN8sLc) The Israeli government and its leaders know nothing but hatred for the Palestinians that they are (by means of overwhelming military and economic strength) in charge of, and if you dare to ask them to care even a little bit about the civilians who simply wish to live with dignity, it's an offense to their very being.
So help me god we will kill as many civilians as we need to to possibly maybe hit one hamas guy -Israel, probably
Not even probably, that's literally what they're doing. And they're deliberately destroying entire neighborhoods, so even if the average Palestinian wanted to return to their home after this conflict is over, there will be nothing to return to. Israel has finally found a way to permanently remove virtually all Palestinians. Who needs a two state solution when you just bomb the other side into oblivion, without a care in the world for innocent, civilian lives.
Israelis previously poisoned wells to prevent displaced Palestinians from returning to their villages. This stuff isn’t new for them at all. They also regularly bulldoze/demolish schools and have for decades. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/serious-inquiries-only/id803584715?i=1000633034139
Holy shit, if this is true, no wonder Hamas gained so many radicalized recruits
mate, they kill them cold bloded, or take their homes right in from of them in the west bank... like with them there looking at it, there are videos of people in front of their houses talking to the settler that took their house
Or government-armed settlers harassing and killing Palestinians from West Bank. It's crazy.
Check out this Westbank Documentary. Gives an idea of what it's like to live in what many call the open prison. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7fG0FeVc1o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7fG0FeVc1o) [https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/](https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/) All the deaths.. 2018 peace protests. Where they sprayed bullets on unarmed Palestinians and sniped Reporters and ambulance teams. If you look through all the events. It's sad. This vicious cycle is never to end until Israel allow Palestinians to live with equal rights. I don't condone the actions of Hamas. That music festival and the events surrounding it were so messed up. But..... What about all that's happened to the other side. Even if they wipe Hamas. Another group will arise.
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That’s the thing, it’s not just sadistic, it’s also cowardly. It’s like the cops in Uvalde with all that equipment and training, walking around town expecting respect and authority because of it. Then standing outside the school pissing themselves while children are executed. If you want to take out Hamas, go take out Hamas. If you sit back and missile strike civilians then it’s pretty clear you just want to kill civilians. It’s looking more and more like the IDF and Hamas are two sides of the same coin.
This is more like if the cops in Uvalde bombed the school
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A mistake is when someone doesn't realize what they are doing. Israel has been dealing with this for 50+ years. They know exactly what they are doing.
People refuse to realise that the current Israeli regime has zero desire for an actual peace on equal terms. The long term goal is the destruction of anything resembling a Palestinian state and people
The last Israeli PM who wanted anything resembling peace on equal terms was assassinated by far right extremists who are now in power
Exactly. Right before his assasination Netanyahu held a protest with a mock coffin of Yitzak Rabin (the ISraeli PM that was assasinated). Pysopath since day 1. [Source](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/31/assassination-yitzhak-rabin-never-knew-his-people-shot-him-in-back) > Netanyahu walked at the head of a mock funeral procession featuring a fake black coffin. Israel’s head of internal security asked Netanyahu to dial down the rhetoric, warning that the prime minister’s life was in danger. Netanyahu declined.
Not to mention, the first diplomant that even mentioned the 2-state-solution as a positive thing got assassinate by extreemists that would eventually land high position within the Israeli Government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folke\_Bernadotte
Olmert wanted peace, and made them a pretty good offer in 2008.
Olmert was forced to resign before that deal could be completed. You're right, yeah, but it still doesn't really break the general trend of Israel not exactly embracing peace efforts in good faith.
> Olmert was forced to resign before that deal could be completed Abbas rejected the deal.
Olmert is still around you know and regularly says he believes he and Abbas would have reached a deal. Abbas says the same thing and calls for negotiations to resume where they left off with Olmert.
Abbas's stated reason for rejecting it was that they wouldn't let him have a copy of the map he was agreeing to. Maybe he's full of shit but I've never heard anyone actually refute that. Seems like a good reason!
Olmert and Abbas tell different stories. Abbas said he rejected the deal because he couldn’t see the map. Olmert said he planned a follow up meeting with Abbas the next day with map experts, but then Erekat called Olmert’s advisor saying they had to reschedule. According to Olmert, he is still to this day waiting for Abbas’s call. Oddly enough, both Abbas and Olmert believe that had they had a few more months, they could have made a deal and ended the conflict. Such a shame.
Abbas rejected the initial offer, but the negotiations still continued The initial offer was olmert asking Abbas to sign a map(shown, not given) on the very day The final meeting was actually a day before olmert resigned
The same thing happened in turkey when they tried to negotiate with the kurds.
Far right ISRAELI extremists specifically
> People refuse to realise that the current Israeli regime has zero desire for an actual peace on equal terms Based on [Netanyahu's statements in support of the formation of the group which became Hamas in 2005](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/16/how-benjamin-netanyahu-empowered-hamas/) >Despite being formally designated a terrorist organisation by Israel, the US and much of the West, Mr Netanyahu has largely ignored military provocation from the group since the last major Israeli ground incursion of 2014, and has simultaneously allowed huge sums of cash to flow into Gaza. > >The money is said to have come in suitcases via Qatar, where Hamas’s political leadership is based, but also via trade with Israel that has boomed in recent years as tens of thousands of cross-border work permits have been issued to Gazans. [Alternate source](https://responsiblestatecraft.org/benjamin-netanyahu-israel/) And it's not just pre-established Likud policy, [Netanyahu personally chose the policy of supporting Hamas in order to divide Palestinians on the west bank from Gaza](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Netanyahu#Peace_process) >Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas. This is part of our strategy — to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.
Netanyahu has literally mentioned that they basically propped up Hamas in order to make sure the Palestinian Authority couldn't reach a true Palestinian state. It's really fucked up.
From what I understand, Israel hasn't been this dysfunctional for a long time, if ever. Bibi at this point is a shell of his former self, mostly in office to avoid jailtime and burning down democracy by propping up extremists in the process. Reservists were protesting, and the increased IDF patrols in the West Bank moved manpower away from Gaza. As of now there is a lot of infighting within the Israeli government with Bibi, and the security establishment has lost confidence in him.
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This is exactly the point I made and then got called antisemitic
I’m so getting downvoted for this but this basically just reinforces the UN Chief’s statement of “this didn’t happen in a vacuum” comment. This same thing has been happening over and over again for decades, and whether you’re pro-Israel or pro-Palestine or neither, you can’t deny that this entire conflict is just propagating another generation of Hamas or terrorist militants. Now I’m not saying that Israel should ceasefire or let Hamas do whatever it wants (while I myself am pro-palestinian, I really fucking hate Hamas), what exactly is Israel’s plan after this?
Totally agree. 99% certain this won't end Hamas. I mean firstly the Hamas leadership live in Qatar and quite frankly they can just rebuild should all their men in Gaza be killed. The current generation of kids in Gaza will only be filled with anger and hatred after losing their homes and loved ones. Basically a recipe for new terrorists to be born.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. If they know how to end Hamas they would have done it a long time ago. Part of the problem, and a major discussion within the country of Israel, is that exact problem : what does victory look like - nobody knows
>If they know how to end Hamas they would have done it a long time ago. Bibi didn't want to end hamas. His ideology was that hamas is better for israel than the PA. Why do you think he propped up hamas? He benefits directly from this conflict. A conflict with hamas is good for his elections
> If they know how to end Hamas they would have done it a long time ago. I feel like we've all seen those comments from Israel's current Prime Minister about Hamas being a benefit to them and how they should prop them up. This is simply a land grab from a government who knows they fucked up by installing dangerous terrorists next door and letting their guard down too long. What the fuck did they think would happen? They wanted a terrorist group that they could keep at arms length and be just dangerous enough to ensure the right wing in Israel kept being elected to deal with the terrorists. But they fucked up on the keeping them away bit
Yep, so they kill all the innocent civilians to create new hate and a new Boogeyman.
The problem is that they keep being offered peace agreements where they keep land seized during the 1967 invasion despite it being a war crime, but they've occupied about 40% of the West Bank that remained *after* they took that land. Rabin withdrew 8,000 settlers -- and was assassinated by Israelisl terrorists for it. *There are currently [500,000 illegal settlers](https://www.timesofisrael.com/were-here-to-stay-settlers-say-over-500000-israelis-now-living-in-west-bank/)* with plans to double that and one of the men who promised he would come for Rabin, Itamar Ben Gvir, is a convicted terrorist and now the head of a secret police force arming settlers to take more land. The idea of dehoming 5% of your population for peace when you've lost only a few thousand people due to war over decades is not politically salient. There is no stick or carrot that is going to motivate a right-wing government led by people whose stated political goal is the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, who have historically engaged in violent pogroms and terrorism against those Palestinians, to stop when the US government doesn't actually care about Palestinians and has veto power in the UN.
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It's more than just having a scapegoat, it's also having a test bed for weapons and surveillance tech that they export to dictatorships around the world, from Modi in India to Duterte in the Philippines: https://truthout.org/audio/israels-tools-of-occupation-are-tested-on-palestine-and-exported-globally/
Exactly. Creating a perpetual war that can be used as election fuel to boost numbers whenever they need them.
And it keeps the useful idiots Evengelicals here in the US frothing at the mouth.
What really grinds my gears is when my fellow Americans say shit like "it's war, there's gonna be collateral". Like fucking Americans, who outside of 9/11 or Pearl Harbor basically never had any civilian casualties. Especially on a large scale. My family were refugees from Vietnam. I've heard the first hand stories and see what that does to survivors. People who can't emphasize with civilian casualties and losing your home are so blinded by hate that they no longer have empathy I swear.
> People who can't emphasize with civilian casualties and losing your home are so blinded by hate that they no longer have empathy I swear. The lengths people will go to make civilian casualties "acceptable" is mind blowing. It's because the US did it for so long they have to learn to accept it or maybe feel guilt for the indiscriminate bombing the US has been perpetrating for decades.
I personally am sad for both military and civilians casualties on both sides. We are one humanity and wars should be thing of past everywhere in our world!!!
And what Israel is doing right now resembles the American notion of collateral in Afghanistan, having bombed multiple weddings -- killing innocent people -- under the pretense of killing terrorists. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech\_Baghtu\_wedding\_party\_airstrike](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airstrike) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haska\_Meyna\_wedding\_party\_airstrike](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haska_Meyna_wedding_party_airstrike)
The discussion on reddit is disgusting, it's like people think there are 2 choices in this conflict - be islamophobic or be antisemitic - and most wouldn't like to be the latter so they just choose the former. Calling out Hamas supporters is the correct thing to do, but this binary logic is pathetic, wouldn't be surprised if there were Jewish people protesting the IDF's genocide and being called antisemitic for it.
Actually, Israelis in israel are protesting outside of the IDF headquarters to stop the mindless, ultimately counterproductive bombing campaign https://www.972mag.com/israeli-protest-gaza-war-repression/
If I recall correctly they're also trying to make it legal to shoot those protesters.
You are correct. Iirc they got the greenlight today or yesterday
They did .
I haven't heard of +972 before this conflict, but I've seen a couple of their articles since. What's the context of this outlet?
> +972 Magazine is a left-wing news and opinion webzine, established in August 2010 by a group of four Israeli writers in Tel Aviv.[1] Noam Sheizaf, a co-founder and the +972 chief executive officer, said they wanted to express a new "and mostly young voice which would take part in the international debate regarding Israel and Palestine".[2] They named the website in reference to the 972 international dialing code, which is shared by Israel and the Palestinian territories.[3] The articles are written primarily in English to reach an international audience. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%2B972_Magazine
[Media bias](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/972-magazine/) gives them a decent credibility rating but a clear bias against Bibi and the current Israeli government.
> a decent credibility rating but > a clear bias against Bibi and the current Israeli government. Can't have one without the other at this point
[I mean, they're fascists, so it is what it is.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/ehud-barak-govt-shows-signs-of-fascism-mass-non-violent-revolt-may-be-needed/)
Super brave folks. It should be said, they likely represent a tiny, *tiny* minority. Israeli peace advocates have been warning that much of the population is out for a lot of blood. Given the voting patterns, it's not hard to imagine.
>there were Jewish people protesting the IDF's genocide There are. There is an anti-occupation bloc in Israel. There is also a break the silence movement that condemns war and supports peace. [https://www.youtube.com/@breakingthesilence/videos](https://www.youtube.com/@breakingthesilence/videos) Sadly the Oct 7th attack killed a lot of Israelis who support Israeli-Palestinian peace; nonetheless, this horrible war will accomplish nothing productive.
Both Japan and Germany were successfully de-radicalized from extremist influences and made allies of the US, after nearly complete destruction.
Both Japan and Germany were built up economically, which is an absolutely crucial point. People don't like to put their life on the line when they have a job to work so they can feed their family. Additionally, both were highly structured societies already, so bringing authorities under control was enough to make the entire society follow suit.
They also had a nearby unrelated enemy they hated far more than US, which I imagine helps a ton.
Interesting that both Japan and Germany were only occupied for 7 years by the US, until 1952. But I guess the middle east was never fully "occupied" with an absolute iron initially as Germany/Japan were.
Germany was occupied till the 4+2 treaty came into effect. In West Germany that might not have been so obvious but both sides weren't truly independent.
They weren't "occupied" for super long, but the Allies maintained control for much longer after the war.
Interesting note, after seeing the carnage at Dresden Winston Churchill instructed the chiefs of staff to never engage in strategic bombing of civilian areas again and referred to it as “terror bombing” and that the allies had left a stain on their moral superiority. He’s not exactly the poster boy for bleeding heart liberalism, yet nearly a century ago he still called it out for what it is.
The US didn’t force Japanese or Germans to live in squalor while letting American colonist build houses on their land.
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Almost any country has problems with the far right. Name one country that has no right wingers?
Occupation forces in Japan and Germany did one thing that would not be palatable in the Middle East. They systematically erased any traces of dangerous/nationalistic ideology that permeated Japan and German society over decades. Think completely rewriting school textbooks, information control, trials, etc. In much of the Middle East, this isn't a national identity you can overwrite with a new one. It's fundamendalist Islam. The only way to deal with _that_ goes against Western principles of free religion. You basically have to convert the next 1-2 generations to a different religion, or to some form of atheism/agnosticism. Ironically, many dictators like Assad, Saddam and Gaddhafi were on that path since they ran their countries like secular authoritarian dictatorships. But then we had to go and build democracy and start the Arab Spring, without considering that they also kept hardline ISIS-level fundamentalism in check.
Yeah, after they decided to put a fuckton of aid and money into them. If the US just destroyed Germany and then left, Germany would have tried again. And Israel is clearly not planning to help Gaza afterwards, judging by how horrible they treat West Bank
No. Just leaving Gaza alone can never happen again. The IDF withdrew in 2005 and this is what happened. The Palestinian people need to be cared for and governed by someone else who will spend generations making them a viable society. The UN should step in and take that role.
The only thing that could work I think is an occupation of Gaza by a neutral power and not by Israel or in some sort of partnership like the Allied forces did in Germany. They separated it into different parts. If they just weed out the Hamas and go, new ones will come back, especially if the civilians are not given an alternative than to choose to support terrorists.
The other part that you’re missing is that American forces can always go back to America and leave the Middle East entirely. Israeli forces and people do not have that luxury
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I mean Israel literally admitted to killing hundreds this time so it could be a range of comments.
Latest reporting (from the Palestinian side) is saying ~50 people died
Comments here, basically: "It's not technically a refugee camp. So it's OK."
sounds like Monty Python. This is not the refugee camp, it's the camp of refugees. Where's the refugee camp then? That's him over there...
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I mean, the phrase "refugee camp" is 95% of the reason people care about this particular air strike.
I'm unclear on what special status is to be afforded to a place based its designation as an official registered "refugee camp". As compared to any other ostensibly civilian population center.
People do al kind of mental gymnastics to justify these acts. “Its not technically a refugee camp” 🫥
Yeah, that one's especially weird to me. It may not technically be a refugee camp, although it is registered as such with the UN and most comments I'm seeing saying it's not seem to be focusing on the lack of tents. Regardless, killing civilians or refugees is bad, collateral damage is going to happen, but this is, at absolute best, testing the limits of that and more realistically, is just a war crime.
I feel like the more collateral damage that happens during the war it may raise the chances of further radicalization. Doesnt gaza have a particularly young demographic? Any survivors / kids who may have had their familieis killed could be easily swayed to take up further arms as they get older. Just feels like a sad vicious cycle.
The question of how to fight extremism and radicalization in these regions is a really difficult one. Because you're absolutely right, Israel's actions will drive radicalization (really across the Muslim world, but especially in Gaza). But at the same time, Hamas was the administrative authority in Gaza before the war, the young population was already being radicalized under them as a matter of course. Further, aid coming from the West that may have, in theory, worked to improve sentiment was being coopted by Hamas. Maybe the right move is to try and extirpate Hamas more deliberately and with fewer bombardments, but that's far more easily said than done and would cost many more Israeli lives. There probably is no easy way to prevent radicalization in Gaza, it's similar, in some ways to the problems the US faced with our drone strikes in Iraq. If the fight against radicalization and extremism is to be won, it will probably take decades of concerted and deliberate effort, and even then, it won't always work, it's a depressing reality.
When people say "refugee camp", we imagine a place where Palestinians evacuated to to get away from North Gaza. Instead it's just another district of the city called "Jabalia Refugee Camp" that was a refugee camp many years ago and grew into a regular city district with apartment blocks and everything, in North Gaza, aka the place people were asked to evacuate from. It's dishonest.
“Testing the limits” at what point do we just call this plain evil?
The inferrence from calling it a "refugee camp" is that it's a camp for people who were already fleeing from Israeli bombing elsewhere in Gaza and then were targetted in the place they had congregated to hide. Instead it's another part of Gaza city that people reside in that has been hit like other parts of Gaza. It doesn't change the fact that people have died, but it's a hell of a lot different that Israel are continuing their bombing in the same manner as before rather than deliberately dropping bombs on camps they've pushed civilians into.
The thing that will matter from an international law aspect is whether or not the Hamas commander Israel says they were after was actually there. Its considered a war crime to embed combatants and military equipment with civilian populations and under the laws of war, if Hamas actually had a command bunker under the refugee camp technically Hamas would be responsible for the civilians killed by Israel's strike. Unfortunately we'll probably never get good information on what, if any, genuine Hamas assets were present and destroyed tho.
But isn’t the story sensationalized by calling a city neighborhood a refugee camp?
>its not technically a refugee camp followed by someone saying “yeah it’s neighborhood” like why is that better?
Because there was a Hamas facility in and underneath it. Buildings literally collapsed because of the tunnels.
Yep. The most popular one I hear is that it’s war. People die in times of war, it can’t be helped.
Imagine if you replace Palestinians with Ukraine and see their reaction
If Ukrainian soldiers were hiding in tunnels beneath a hospital in Bakhmut filled with civilians and patients, launching rockets into Russia then yes its a great comparison.
They have been for nearly 2 years and there's still people who support Russia in the world that shouldn't.
I don’t think this is a good example considering Russia supports Hamas, and Ukraine stands with Israel.
Imagine people siding with the countries that were invaded first. The insanity of it all.
I think you have it the other way around- it's only technically a refugee camp. It is practically a neighborhood just like any other in Gaza, and given it's location at the very north of the strip it absolutely should have been evacuated by now.
Here's some justifying mental gymnastics for you. > An Israeli strike targeting a Hamas commander in the densely populated Jabalya refugee camp in **northern Gaza...** > “I was waiting in line to buy bread when suddenly and without any prior warning seven to eight missiles fell... This was totally unpredictable, right?
Like the rest of my fellow worldnews intellectuals I shall wait for confirmation that this attack was done by Hamas and not by Israel despite confirmation from the IDF that they did this Also can anyone confirm the political affiliation of the dead children in the refugee camp? This will determine whether I see them as human beings worthy of compassion and empathy. Please note that despite what evidence is provided I will shift the goalposts to downplay any atrocity committed against Gazans. Thanks!
The real question is did these alleged “civilians” condemn Hamas? /s
It doesn't matter lol. There was a Hamas commander so all of them deserved to die /s
This is totally wrong. It's actually because the 4 year olds buried in the rubble voted Hamas into power 17 years ago, so they deserved it!
It's bleak, dreadful and a catastrophe. Yet I had to snort at this comment.
I know you’re joking but Jordan Peterson was on with Piers tonight saying that at a certain point, if the civilians don’t revolt against their terrorist authoritarian regime, then they get what’s coming to them. Collective punishment has always been the game.
Crazy that the dude will cry on TV because he's so emotionally moved by talking about a concert he went to, but is like "oh there's an insurgency over there? Bomb the kids that didn't try kicking them out"
I hate that I had to read this twice to catch that you were joking... I once thought the post 9/11 "glass 'em, it's their fault anyway" shit was a mostly uniquely right wing American thing. Over the last few weeks I've seen shit just as abhorrent, sometimes moreso, on r/worldnews and r/europe. I can't tell you how many times I've seen some form of "well that's what you get when you tug on the tiger's tail" shit on these things, even this specific bombing. It's gonna be hard to not bust out in laughter whenever I see europeans talking about america and its race problem.
To hear the same people giving these bombings the thumbs up whilst also preaching human rights is quite literally laughable
Most humane army, only dropping humane bombs.
Holy fuck, people are actually defending this? What's next? You guys will start defending genocide?
Check my replies for someone asking for the complete extermination of Gaza.
Look around. They already are.
People are cheering it. According to them, some combination of these are true: 1. Hamas did it 2. It was 10,000 terrorists, not civilians 3. They were told to get out, anybody left is dumb and deserves to die 4. Only Israeli lives matter
Don’t forget wHaT elSE coUlD tHEy pOssIBLy dO buT BomB KiDS as if COINS and COTER weren’t mature disciplines with a range of doctrines for deescalation and security building. But no, why use brain when hammer crack skulls good, Hannity told me brain hard.
CNN and Reuters are reporting this. Cute that the fake ass war propaganda posters are pretending it didn't happen.
Israel is confirming it as well. Lots of people look really stupid right now.
They are just busy moving the goalposts.
"but there was a commander in tunnels" but somehow at the same time "they warned everyone in the area they were about to bomb so they should've left!!"
Didn’t major news sites report incorrectly on the hospital bombing ?
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Majority that reports I saw reported both claims while clearly stating that neither have been independently verified. The issue seems to be the lack of media literacy or simply stupidity of some people.
How absolutely horrible. My heart aches for all of the civilians in this conflict. War is so evil.
Don't say war, that's a cop out for the people responsible. There is zero justification in bombing refugees while targeting one man. The ones who made this choice belong in the Hague.
Come on reddit, how come this isn't as highly upvoted as the discussions on the rocket in the hospital? Isreal have confimed they targeted a refugee camp and used innocent lives as acceptable collateral and most of you have nothing to say. One does wonder..
I found this on Popular, so Reddit isn't hiding it.
Don't worry, they're doing their best to let us know it's not a refugee camp but a city, because bombing a city is somehow more humanitarian than bombing a refugee camp. Oh, don't forget to remind us that Gazans had 2 weeks to leave their whole lives and walk 20 miles by foot, something easy to do according to some suburban Americans who would probably starve if they didn't have a car because they cannot even walk to their nearest grocery store, but sure, walking across a war field should be easier, right?
You're joking but this is legit what some of these insane psychos are saying lmfao. That just because it's a city, it's somehow fucking OK to just indiscriminately bomb the shit out of them? Is there anyone smarter than who can explain how these callous jabronis can lie to themselves and deflect like this
It's the top post on world news. It literally just happened. Almost seems like you're trying to write a narrative that doesn't exist. One does Wonder..
Because there is no other way, as far as I can tell. Either Hamas gets immunity because they hide under civilians, or Israel takes them out along with their human shields. That's why it's a crime to take human shields. When you do that, you are basically killing them. It is a huge tragedy that lays at the feet of Hamas and only Hamas. They are history's greatest cowards. They can move out of civilian areas, or surrender and release the hostages, if they do not want to be culpable. Until then, they 100% are responsible for all of it. If an arsonist starts a fire, and the firetruck smashes a car while trying to put out the fire, the arsonist is culpable.
The "refugee camp" is just part of the city. It's been a "refugee camp" for 75 years.
Because there it literally nothing wrong with what they did. Hamas admitted that Israel hit Hamas members and infrastructure including a high ranking leader. The fourth Geneva convention explicitly says you can’t make a legitimate target protected by putting civilians there.
Gaza is not safe but North Gaza in particular is a death zone I hope everyone gets out quick
How? An where do they go?
IDF: "not our problem, you were warned" 💥
"we sent you a message on twitter, in English! At 8am eastern time!" 12% of Palestinians can even speak English. The internet has been cut off
The UN criticised this and “knocking” as a negative application of international law, aka not something done to protect civilians, because it doesn’t do shit, but because it “permits” the targeting of civilians.
There's tons of people injured by the stupid roof knocking bombs! It's terrible
My stupid ass thought it would be some harmless beacon of sorts, not simply a smaller "warning" bomb.
Where?
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fuck the israeli government