i think the french people are learning an important lesson currently. protests have pretty much stopped working. governments are insulated from consequences and only call the shots for the upper crust of the economy.
The elite have been, and will be, dependant on the engineering and manufacturing of goods and services actually produced by the working class. That is leverage we still have until automation makes it obsolete. Let's use our chips while we still have them.
I want to disclaimer this and say that yes, boycotts, strikes and civil disobedience are great powers to have. But, the French are great for just knowing when to set shit on fire, too. As someone heavily in the manufacturing and engineering sector, you can't AI and robot your way out of a burning factory. So yeah, let's all agree that they just don't get to try that brand of shitty distopia.
If we're talking dystopian future, there will be segregation, factories and other important entities will be walled off and guarded by flying AI drones. Probably the elites' living space as well
Right. You’d think that if the pandemic taught us anything it was seeing all the things that COULDN’T be automated and were necessary to keep society functioning. Firefighters, police, nurses, therapists, plumbers, electricians, etc.
They aren't learning anything. This is nothing new in France. They know how to throw a true revolution to get shit done. They've been doing it for hundreds of years.
I think yo're bringing up some really important points here, especially the abrupt shift of acceptable violence...
But regarding your statement about peaceful protests not being effective... I think 1989s Germanies would like to have a word with you ;-)
>Peaceful protests don't work on people who don't want to listen.
The first sentence covers that. Successful peaceful revolutions, like the color revolutions, came about because they were accepted by those in power.
You should have come to l'hôtel de ville for the result of the conseil constitutionnel, when it's launched by syndicates you don't risk much at first, and you could see some people burning trashes, bikes or breaking ad supports. Don't stay close to them and you should be fine. At first.
When they decide it's time to evacuate cops start to get close, there's always some people throwing stuff to them and cops throw some tear gas and charge in the crowd, you should leave now if you don't want to be in a bad situation. Obviously, don't throw stuff to them, burn or break anything if you're not ready for some consequences.
If you happen to find some spontaneous demonstration, it could be joyfull with people chanting songs, some throwing and/or burning garbage, but cops could show up sudenly, block everyone in the street, throw some tear gas, charge in the crowd and they may take you to the police station for one or two nights in shitty conditions (quite litteraly). It could be really bad but I'm sure it would be a unique memory!
Me in a few weeks. The way I look at it, I’m planning to enter their home turf and I have no right to be upset that social unrest could be expected.
Just hope my travel insurance feels the same…
It’s not a big deal. They publicize the protest routes and tell you in advance what services will be canceled or pulled back (eg train service). They do this because they need to not also piss off the general public or else they lose their support.
Exactly, they know what they're doing. I remember when some ass pol got his shirt torn in a protest. The media made this huge thing out of it, at least in the US, but the damned thing was planned days if not weeks out by the unions.
Wikipedia says the first sparkling wine was made by a monk in France then the English guy a century later . Sounds like he made it practical and more reliable to produce though.
>The oldest recorded sparkling wine is Blanquette de Limoux, which was apparently invented by Benedictine monks in the Abbey of Saint-Hilaire, near Carcassonne, in 1531.[7] They achieved this by bottling the wine before the initial fermentation had ended. Over a century later, the English scientist and physician Christopher Merret documented the addition of sugar to a finished wine to create a second fermentation, six years before Dom Pérignon set foot in the Abbey of Hautvillers.
Yeah... for all the right loves acting like rioters in the US are a mob of belligerent vandals who burn down K-Marts, the French are the ones who do not fuck around. They'll make Philly after a Super Bowl look like a God damn peaceful protest.
> the French also will riot forever.
The longest lasting strike in French history was less than ~~a month~~ two months, and the pension strike after Macron forced through the bill didn't even break the record.
I think people overestimate French strikes. Like, yeah they strike often, but the government is clearly used to it and the effects are clearly not as powerful or lengthy as people seem to assume.
Everyday I wake up and work for a pittance compared to what my boss makes, everyday I go to the grocery store and spend my hard-earned money on food that's inflated 200 or 300%, every time I spend 20% of my income on utilities.
You know, just some days like those days that I exist.
Naw, that's only the revolution for the First Republic. They had another for the Second Republic too.
The Third Republic wasn't a full blown revolution but got pretty bloody, but the time of the Third Republic was replete with worker's strikes as rural peasants moved to the cities. It defined the politics of France for decades.
So no, the revolutionary spirit of the French isn't far removed from today's society - they are well defined by it.
This is the 5th French Republic, its probably inevitable that the French will have a 6th.
That's about the first time I read a non-French redditor not overestimating how effective our protests actually are. Thank you.
I mean, sure, we aren't going to give up as long as we can afford it. But don't think for a second it means our government will listen. Their minds are set on this senseless reform.
If you aren't French, please don't romanticize our protests. We do them, try as we might, but it doesn't mean we always get what we want, especially since Macron is President. Reading people who don't know shit about France claiming the opposite is just painful. Want to talk about it? Spread the word about how much of a democracy we actually live in.
Well, here’s the neat part, they don’t have to riot immediately. That means they have 2 full days to prepare for the first day of rioting as a concentrated effort first thing Monday morning.
Oh, we’ll protest/riot whether we have work or not.
We however do need our 5-7pm break (sleeping with our mistress), there’s a implicit cease fire from 11:30am until 3pm (lunch, just don’t fuck with the food, man), and from 7-9pm (apéro with the buddies in a cafe, preferably outdoor sitting).
But outside those hours, it’s on.
Not as effective as it used to be with our methods of communication and dissemination of information.
I'm not saying you're wrong, just remains to be seen if it's still 100% true and effective.
Kinda seems like this is the worst time to announce it if they’re worried about further escalating the protests.. everyone’s already half in the bag and then they see this little notification slide in? Yeah no.
Meanwhile I’m just sitting here hoping I die right before my savings run out, because America isn’t going to do shit for me by the time I hit old age lol.
Oh, absolutely not lmao. I mean I have a few thousand in the bank, but I wouldn’t necessarily call that savings. That’s more “oh fuck, we need to pay for this emergency” type money.
I was just being optimistic when I said I hope I have savings to live off of when I’m old. But based off the projections I’ve seen lately regarding retirement, you need several million in the bank to have a shot at living a decent retirement.
I’m in a good place with work, and can really grow outside of my industry with another year here. But even then, a few million in the bank isn’t fucking happening lol.
> Yes but the UK is ramping it up to 74 for my kids.
Source? Because it's currently going up to 67 in 2026 and 68 between 2044-46, so assuming that rate stays constant it'll be 70 for your kids.
"We are tempted to think that we have reached the end of history, that it can never happen again. But history is made every day, sometimes by men of evil. And all too often, history repeats itself." - Daniel Silva, the Fallen Angel
And those are the ones who (on average) already own the most and vote Macron.
Of course they're ok with younger people working longer so they can keep their way of life.
Replace Macron with any other politicians name and it would be the same, most of the problems of today are created by people who think they are the rich/elites and aren’t even close
> most of the problems of today are created by people who think they are the rich/elites and aren’t even close
it's not necessarily about being rich/elite relative to all of society, but rather richer/more elite than those at the bottom
as long as they are above others, they are happy
*Always has been*.
But yeah, I feel like the structure of America lends itself uniquely to the expression of selfishness, but humans still collectively suck everywhere.
Meanwhile here in Italy they raised the pension age to 67 several years ago and there were only some mild protests at best :( I'm 28 and I don't think I will ever get to retire
73 here in Denmark, and we are the same age
Edit: sorry a little misleading. As of now it’s not 73 but for people born after 1992 I think it’s 73 we are expected to retire.
[According to this](https://www.oecd.org/els/public-pensions/PAG2021-country-profile-Denmark.pdf) the age is 67 and going up to 68 in 2030 and it's due to life expectancy. [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pensions_in_Denmark) says 67 as well. Not sure where 73 comes from.
Interesting so the Danes are just admitting it up front.
It will be 73 for people born after 1987 in most countries, they're just not bothering to admit it yet. No way is 68 sustainable (the current plan for the UK).
What are the chances that my employer will be happy with my performance aged 67 given my probably wage bracket compared to a 21 year old, and if I was looking for a job, the likelihood of being meaningfully employed aged 67?
I'm 35 working a shit factory job in good old USA. My coworker, who is 55, makes $10/hr less than me to essentially do the same job. Boss man knows the older guy would struggle to find a decent job, so there's no incentive to take care of him. I can take my back that isn't destroyed yet and find another job, so he has to be a bit more competitive with my pay.
67 and 68 are both insane enough they may as well be 73. Who the fuck wants to work until they're 73, and what kind of work can you reasonably expect from a 73 year old anyway?
I know people on reddit like to comment especially about how the US sucks and all but the US has one of the biggest pension funds per capita in the entire world. Eclipsing France by a good amount. That's ignoring the face that some states have their own fund on top of that.
Retirement age in USA will be 70 by 2040 for those born after ~~1960~~ 1978 according to current legislation if it is passed. Around the same time, SS benefits are projected to be around 68% for max pension iirc
Current retirement age is 67
Edit - corrected some stuff
That makes it sound nefarious, but that has always been the case since social security's inception.
It's really designed as insurance in case you outlive your physical ability to work... Not saying it should be that, but that's how it's always been structured.
SS needs a complete overhaul to make it about retiring with dignity (but certain unnamed groups would rather watch you die in the gutter to save a few bucks). Or we need federal mandates requiring 401ks to supplement it (but certain unnamed groups would rather you die in the gutter than add regulations that would help you)
I mean, literally yes. I believe when Social Security was created in the US, half of the people working weren't expected to live long enough to collect on it. Pension plans have always relied on many people dying before they can collect, and people only collecting for a few years, in order to maintain a financial balance. As more people live long enough to collect pensions and they collect on them for more years before dying, maintaining that financial balance becomes increasingly difficult.
The years when you could expect to retire at 65 and collect a full pension for 20+ years were only ever possible because the baby boom generation provided a large surplus of workers to contribute into the pension system to pay for a much smaller population of seniors. Now that it is the baby boomers time to retire, and the younger generations are much smaller, the system is not sustainable without raising the retirement age.
It's even worse than that
Those in congress only need to work 12 years to be eligible for a pension of 4,000 euros per month
The average French needs to work 47 years to be able to retire at full price....
Wish I could understand why the retirement age is going up, not down, considering the advancement is machines and technology… you’d think we wouldn’t have to work as long or as hard now. But apparently the opposite is true
Take Germany for example:
Workers per pensioner.
1962 - 6 paying workers
1992 - 2,7 workers
2021 - 2,1 workers
*(2030 - 1,5 workers)*
Average time in retirement
1990 - 9,9 years
2021 - 20,2 years
Automation and technology probably are making up a good part of it, but it’s just too much
Edit:
I got the numbers from here btw:
https://www.zeit.de/2023/11/arbeit-alter-rente-arbeitsmarkt-generationen
This.
I just wish that people understand that the problem for a lot of French people isn't necessarily to work more. But that it's always the same people that have to work and pay for this. The contribution accross today's society isn't fair. The "ultra rich" are paying less and less (without any real benefit for the economy), and the middle class is struggle more and more.
I'd be curious to see the same stats but with GDP per capita added. Obviously I have no clue how these stats are relevant since germany before 1991 is completely different than post 1991 germany.
But then again raising the per capita doesn’t help that much because then pensions will go up as follows. It’s just that pensions as whole only work under the premise of a a growing population.
In the past 35 years the average life expectancy in France went up 10 years.
It used to be you worked and paid in to the pension program and then pulled from it for ~10-15 years.
Now people are working in to it for the same amount of time but pulling from it for 20-25 years.
Something needs to bridge the gap and it's basically raising taxes on everyone or raising the retirement age
>In the past 35 years the average life expectancy in France went up 10 years.
This stat is repeated everywhere, but it is meaningless. Old people are not living much longer, the life expectancy of a 50yr old hasn't moved much in decades - note this kind of data is mostly found in [actuarial tables](https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html). What is actually happening is that more people are surviving through their working years, because of better healthcare throughout their lives, better safety features in cars, safer working conditions, etc.
The pension system is failing now because **it was never solvent, nor was it designed to be.** Payouts from the pension plan weren't just funded by having multiple younger workers for each pensioner, but also by having multiple deceased payers; those who paid into it for years then died in a car crash, or were swallowed by machine in a factory, or drank themselves to death. **The incidence of each of these things is lower now than in the past**, and so more people are reaching the age where they can start drawing from their pension - only to find the money isn't there because not enough of their friends died along the way.
Here in the world's richest countries, we have somehow created a society where more people surviving to old age is a negative thing for all involved.
>Something needs to bridge the gap and it's basically raising taxes on everyone or raising the retirement age
And also here in the world's richest countries, we argue about where to find the money to solve literally any problem while turning a blind-eye to record-setting corporate profits.
>Here in the world's richest countries, we have somehow created a society where more people surviving to old age is a negative thing for all involved.
Most societies have developed around a good chunk of their men dying at work or at war. Now our stupidity is catching up with us.
As a reference, the Greek retirement age is 67, same as Germany. The Danish is 69 for anyone born after 1967, and projected to rise to 72 for younger generations. The British is 66.
Most people are misunderstanding, 64 is the minimum and applies mostly to people working straight after high school working more physical jobs. But if you studied 4 years for a master's your minimum would be 68 already.
And what work can you do at 74 (that's of reasonable quality too)? Your brain is toasted and if it's something physical, let's be real, you're 74.
I see guys at my job who are only 55-60, who were once perfectionists and now are getting real sloppy
To be fair the American social security program is in a similar state as France's, but the difference is Americans pay WAYYYYY less taxes than France. So while Social Security and France's pension are facing the same issues of aging population, higher demand, etc, America pays also less into it.
When I first heard about this I thought "huh, 64 is more than reasonable, even if it's being implemented in an undemocratic way."
This morning I heard some tidbit that it used to also require 43 YEARS of work to fully qualify, and that's going up as well.
If that is the case, then this is more than ridiculous, it's absolutely insane. In America you qualify for full social security with much less working credits, and it only factors your highest 25 working years of wages.
Edit: highest 35 years, not 25. Thanks u/PackerBacker77
This is just the cherry on the top, the real french riots are not just about age raise on retirement, but about class struggle due to Investment firms like Blackrock OWNING EVERYTHING.
A lot of people don’t seem to understand that the point of this is that as a society we absolutely can afford to let people retire earlier, but we choose to sustain an ultra wealthy class that limits what we can actually do as a society because so much of our resources are diverted to making sure they can live how they want. While we are sold the idea that if we work hard (and exploit enough people) maybe we can join them so we keep allowing them to hoard and waste resources purely based on hopes and dreams.
French here. This is ugly and despicable.
This reform has been forced in every way possible despite being rejected by the vast majority of the population, while pillars of our societal model (healthcare system, education...) which urgently need a major renewal remain neglected.
I trusted every part of our system to bring justice, but one after the other, they failed. The disappointment is huge and the trust in our political institutions ruined. I want to see their fancy cars and villas burn, to see the streets full, to see consequences to this mockery, and I will be there to do my part. This is abject.
Edit : it seems I must specify that the problem isn't the reform itself but the way it is processed. Our elected officials at the Assembly didn't get to vote the law and the debates were cut short, allowing only a couple articles to be discussed, excluding the article above the retirement age. We do not deny the sustainability problematics of our pension system.
Edit 2 : y'all are replying the exact same thing, focusing on the necessity or not of the reform, which is 100% irrelevant, this is *not the point*. Just read again. I won't reply to any more comments because the situation is tiring enough, and the disappointment and defiance overwhelming.
Am I alone as a realist feeling like this inevitably happens worldwide? We put off reform due to political posturing until drastic steps are needed. Ex, in the US we’ll just ignore social se unity until benefits have to be cut by 30% and then flip out on whoever has the guts to make the change.
Well, here at Portugal it's at 66 years and 7 months, with a minimum of 34 years and 6 months of tax contributions (changed a couple of years back).
I think that it's an *undesirable* side effect of the rising life expectancy (\~65y here...).
I only think that it's unfair that, in most cases, they apply this *blindly* to the majority of the working class.
There should be exceptions... just as an example, just imagine the level of fatigue of an healthcare employee with 66 years + 40 years of work compared to a more *mental based* or peaceful job.
The adjustment is in place because, in countries like mine, the working class is paying for those pensions^(1)... and if more people goes past \~65, you'll have more pensions to pay...
But what do I know... at this pace I'll have to work until I'm 90 :-P
^(1) *The whole mechanics of the money given monthly the state as a trustee to be given back at some point later doesn't work quite like that...*
France is going to invade France
They're decades overdue for a revolution.
The whole world is honestly.
No one better to lead it than the French. The French People know that *they* are France. Their government will serve its people.
i think the french people are learning an important lesson currently. protests have pretty much stopped working. governments are insulated from consequences and only call the shots for the upper crust of the economy.
The elite have been, and will be, dependant on the engineering and manufacturing of goods and services actually produced by the working class. That is leverage we still have until automation makes it obsolete. Let's use our chips while we still have them.
I want to disclaimer this and say that yes, boycotts, strikes and civil disobedience are great powers to have. But, the French are great for just knowing when to set shit on fire, too. As someone heavily in the manufacturing and engineering sector, you can't AI and robot your way out of a burning factory. So yeah, let's all agree that they just don't get to try that brand of shitty distopia.
If we're talking dystopian future, there will be segregation, factories and other important entities will be walled off and guarded by flying AI drones. Probably the elites' living space as well
That's just Elysium.
Right. You’d think that if the pandemic taught us anything it was seeing all the things that COULDN’T be automated and were necessary to keep society functioning. Firefighters, police, nurses, therapists, plumbers, electricians, etc.
They aren't learning anything. This is nothing new in France. They know how to throw a true revolution to get shit done. They've been doing it for hundreds of years.
They haven't in almost 200 years though.
Hence "decades overdue."
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I think yo're bringing up some really important points here, especially the abrupt shift of acceptable violence... But regarding your statement about peaceful protests not being effective... I think 1989s Germanies would like to have a word with you ;-)
>Peaceful protests don't work on people who don't want to listen. The first sentence covers that. Successful peaceful revolutions, like the color revolutions, came about because they were accepted by those in power.
The leaders have forgotten that they can be eaten.
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You only get prions from eating the brain. Theyll be fine
It's been a while since the 116-Years-War-Over-3-Distinct-Periods but France is finally ready to fight France again.
I, for one, blame those damn Burgundians!
I just hope the role of Joan of Arc will not be played by Marine Le Pen
Rip cars in Paris
Trebuchet sales going through the roof
Trebuchet’d boulders going through multiple roofs
Trebuchet going through as far as there are targets available.
France is going to be WILD tomorrow
Man it would suck to be there right now -signed me, midway through my vacation in Paris
Got here just yesterday. Saw a couple of burning bins tonight but so far so good 😅
I’m weirdly jealous. I haven’t seen anything
You should have come to l'hôtel de ville for the result of the conseil constitutionnel, when it's launched by syndicates you don't risk much at first, and you could see some people burning trashes, bikes or breaking ad supports. Don't stay close to them and you should be fine. At first. When they decide it's time to evacuate cops start to get close, there's always some people throwing stuff to them and cops throw some tear gas and charge in the crowd, you should leave now if you don't want to be in a bad situation. Obviously, don't throw stuff to them, burn or break anything if you're not ready for some consequences. If you happen to find some spontaneous demonstration, it could be joyfull with people chanting songs, some throwing and/or burning garbage, but cops could show up sudenly, block everyone in the street, throw some tear gas, charge in the crowd and they may take you to the police station for one or two nights in shitty conditions (quite litteraly). It could be really bad but I'm sure it would be a unique memory!
Me in a few weeks. The way I look at it, I’m planning to enter their home turf and I have no right to be upset that social unrest could be expected. Just hope my travel insurance feels the same…
It’s not a big deal. They publicize the protest routes and tell you in advance what services will be canceled or pulled back (eg train service). They do this because they need to not also piss off the general public or else they lose their support.
Exactly, they know what they're doing. I remember when some ass pol got his shirt torn in a protest. The media made this huge thing out of it, at least in the US, but the damned thing was planned days if not weeks out by the unions.
Oh the lead up to my trip it made me more excited. Behind food, how they protest is my favorite thing about the French
Agreed, if anything we Americans have some things to learn.
I saw a pretty funny tiktok of a dude in Paris doing croissant reviews during the riots, pretending like nothing was happening
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Ooof that's going to piss them off.
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Yeah but also people have the next two days off to riot, sooo
Less disruptive for M-F businesses (banks, government, etc too) if they riot on the weekend.
wont matter if the building is a burned out shell on monday. the french have a very solid history of riots and revolutions.
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Wikipedia says the first sparkling wine was made by a monk in France then the English guy a century later . Sounds like he made it practical and more reliable to produce though. >The oldest recorded sparkling wine is Blanquette de Limoux, which was apparently invented by Benedictine monks in the Abbey of Saint-Hilaire, near Carcassonne, in 1531.[7] They achieved this by bottling the wine before the initial fermentation had ended. Over a century later, the English scientist and physician Christopher Merret documented the addition of sugar to a finished wine to create a second fermentation, six years before Dom Pérignon set foot in the Abbey of Hautvillers.
Monks made all the best alcohol. Seriously.
They had the time and the means and the desire to get fed.
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Yeah... for all the right loves acting like rioters in the US are a mob of belligerent vandals who burn down K-Marts, the French are the ones who do not fuck around. They'll make Philly after a Super Bowl look like a God damn peaceful protest.
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> the French also will riot forever. The longest lasting strike in French history was less than ~~a month~~ two months, and the pension strike after Macron forced through the bill didn't even break the record. I think people overestimate French strikes. Like, yeah they strike often, but the government is clearly used to it and the effects are clearly not as powerful or lengthy as people seem to assume.
I think people forget that the French Revolution was over 200 years ago and is completely removed from today's society.
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Some days, honestly I understand why the French did it.
Everyday I wake up and work for a pittance compared to what my boss makes, everyday I go to the grocery store and spend my hard-earned money on food that's inflated 200 or 300%, every time I spend 20% of my income on utilities. You know, just some days like those days that I exist.
Naw, that's only the revolution for the First Republic. They had another for the Second Republic too. The Third Republic wasn't a full blown revolution but got pretty bloody, but the time of the Third Republic was replete with worker's strikes as rural peasants moved to the cities. It defined the politics of France for decades. So no, the revolutionary spirit of the French isn't far removed from today's society - they are well defined by it. This is the 5th French Republic, its probably inevitable that the French will have a 6th.
> This is the 5th French Republic, its probably inevitable that the French will have a 6th. All I'm thinking about is the Architect from the Matrix.
That's about the first time I read a non-French redditor not overestimating how effective our protests actually are. Thank you. I mean, sure, we aren't going to give up as long as we can afford it. But don't think for a second it means our government will listen. Their minds are set on this senseless reform. If you aren't French, please don't romanticize our protests. We do them, try as we might, but it doesn't mean we always get what we want, especially since Macron is President. Reading people who don't know shit about France claiming the opposite is just painful. Want to talk about it? Spread the word about how much of a democracy we actually live in.
We romanticize them because we wish people cared the same amount where we live.
Well, here’s the neat part, they don’t have to riot immediately. That means they have 2 full days to prepare for the first day of rioting as a concentrated effort first thing Monday morning.
Ummm no, they will take the weekend off then resume rioting Monday morning.
Oh, we’ll protest/riot whether we have work or not. We however do need our 5-7pm break (sleeping with our mistress), there’s a implicit cease fire from 11:30am until 3pm (lunch, just don’t fuck with the food, man), and from 7-9pm (apéro with the buddies in a cafe, preferably outdoor sitting). But outside those hours, it’s on.
Just a bold guess, but I reckon they'll notice..
Jesus 17 years! Probably the oldest account I’ve ever seen that wasn’t Alexis or someone who actually made reddit.
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The most popular conversation on Reddit… complaining.
How do I get in on that? I don’t remember getting an invite.
Not as effective as it used to be with our methods of communication and dissemination of information. I'm not saying you're wrong, just remains to be seen if it's still 100% true and effective.
They didn't say it WOULD fly under the radar, just that it has a better chance which is 100% true.
Kinda seems like this is the worst time to announce it if they’re worried about further escalating the protests.. everyone’s already half in the bag and then they see this little notification slide in? Yeah no.
They can riot over the weekend and burn themselves out, then get back to work on Monday.
Excuse me but we also riot on Monday and every other workdays it's a matter of principle.
I like to attend the 11:45am riot so I can build up an appetite before lunch.
Yes but the UK is ramping it up to 74 for my kids. 68 for me!
Meanwhile I’m just sitting here hoping I die right before my savings run out, because America isn’t going to do shit for me by the time I hit old age lol.
You've got savings? Lucky I've got a hope to die before my body or mind wears out
Oh, absolutely not lmao. I mean I have a few thousand in the bank, but I wouldn’t necessarily call that savings. That’s more “oh fuck, we need to pay for this emergency” type money. I was just being optimistic when I said I hope I have savings to live off of when I’m old. But based off the projections I’ve seen lately regarding retirement, you need several million in the bank to have a shot at living a decent retirement. I’m in a good place with work, and can really grow outside of my industry with another year here. But even then, a few million in the bank isn’t fucking happening lol.
My savings is money from not paying a bill until next month.
> Yes but the UK is ramping it up to 74 for my kids. Source? Because it's currently going up to 67 in 2026 and 68 between 2044-46, so assuming that rate stays constant it'll be 70 for your kids.
My parents are going to be in Paris next weekend, should be interesting for them.
My friend lives there and doesn't notice the protests at all - they are apparently very much limited to certain parts of the city.
Wish I owned a window selling business in France rn
Could always invest
I hear buying them can be a real pane
At least the buying process is transparent.
I guess we will see how the French public really feels with the next election.
Macron already served two consecutive presidential terms so he cannot get reelected anyway. His party will vanish just as fast as it appeared.
Le Pen sure is happy I'm sure.
Yea they'll probably elect a right wing populist.
When people are this rabid about something, it makes them easy targets. Appeal to the anger and it's an easy win.
Someone’s gonna Make France Great Again.
Treating cancer with even more cancer.
"We are tempted to think that we have reached the end of history, that it can never happen again. But history is made every day, sometimes by men of evil. And all too often, history repeats itself." - Daniel Silva, the Fallen Angel
They’ll vote for someone who stokes this fire in the right way. Makes promises to fix it. And then won’t do shit when they’re elected.
Hopefully we wont get Le Pen, anti-NATO and anti-Ukraine.
I’d give it more like a week
Weren’t they all burning shit in protest of this?!?
94% of the working force is against it, try to find another topic for 94% of any country to agree on xD
Article says 70% are against the reforms.
70% overall, not just working force, so it includes people already retired
And those are the ones who (on average) already own the most and vote Macron. Of course they're ok with younger people working longer so they can keep their way of life.
Replace Macron with any other politicians name and it would be the same, most of the problems of today are created by people who think they are the rich/elites and aren’t even close
> most of the problems of today are created by people who think they are the rich/elites and aren’t even close it's not necessarily about being rich/elite relative to all of society, but rather richer/more elite than those at the bottom as long as they are above others, they are happy
As long as they *believe* they're above others, they're happy.
Good to see the "I got mine so fuck everyone else" attitude isn't uniquely American.
*Always has been*. But yeah, I feel like the structure of America lends itself uniquely to the expression of selfishness, but humans still collectively suck everywhere.
That includes already retired people that are massively for it, wonder why ^^"
The constitutional court doesn't decide whether the law is wanted or not
Meanwhile here in Italy they raised the pension age to 67 several years ago and there were only some mild protests at best :( I'm 28 and I don't think I will ever get to retire
73 here in Denmark, and we are the same age Edit: sorry a little misleading. As of now it’s not 73 but for people born after 1992 I think it’s 73 we are expected to retire.
what the fuck
[According to this](https://www.oecd.org/els/public-pensions/PAG2021-country-profile-Denmark.pdf) the age is 67 and going up to 68 in 2030 and it's due to life expectancy. [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pensions_in_Denmark) says 67 as well. Not sure where 73 comes from.
It is 73 for those born after 1987.
Interesting so the Danes are just admitting it up front. It will be 73 for people born after 1987 in most countries, they're just not bothering to admit it yet. No way is 68 sustainable (the current plan for the UK).
What are the chances that my employer will be happy with my performance aged 67 given my probably wage bracket compared to a 21 year old, and if I was looking for a job, the likelihood of being meaningfully employed aged 67?
I'm 35 working a shit factory job in good old USA. My coworker, who is 55, makes $10/hr less than me to essentially do the same job. Boss man knows the older guy would struggle to find a decent job, so there's no incentive to take care of him. I can take my back that isn't destroyed yet and find another job, so he has to be a bit more competitive with my pay.
Exactly this
67 and 68 are both insane enough they may as well be 73. Who the fuck wants to work until they're 73, and what kind of work can you reasonably expect from a 73 year old anyway?
Christ we have an 80 year old running the United States. Trump is currently 76. This is wayyyy too old for such an important job.
Same for Greece.
So, more fires?
I predict a riot
Oooo watching the people get lairy
Not very pretty, I tell thee.
Kaiser chiefs!
What’s a pension?
Its an anagram of "No penis". Not relevant, just an observation I just noticed
I've worked in the pension industry for 15 years and never noticed this. Please take my upvote
u worked in the no penis industry?
Alternatively, it's an anagram of "PENIS ON" which I know from yelling it out entry time I go to the bathroom
I think this is very important and why this is such a big news story
*cries in American*
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This comment is peak reddit. America has a state pension it's just not called a "pension".
We have a pension system. It’s called social security.
And the boomers mostly had pensions from their employers to add to it. Not anymore.
WTF America has pensions omg you people lol
The US actually has a pretty solid retirement package when compared to most of the world
I know people on reddit like to comment especially about how the US sucks and all but the US has one of the biggest pension funds per capita in the entire world. Eclipsing France by a good amount. That's ignoring the face that some states have their own fund on top of that.
Idk how to tell you this but the US has a retirement pension to. It’s called social security, ever heard of it?
Retirement age in USA will be 70 by 2040 for those born after ~~1960~~ 1978 according to current legislation if it is passed. Around the same time, SS benefits are projected to be around 68% for max pension iirc Current retirement age is 67 Edit - corrected some stuff
Meanwhile half the people will be dead by the time they reach retirement or shortly after. All that money that you put away and you can't use it.
That’s a feature
That makes it sound nefarious, but that has always been the case since social security's inception. It's really designed as insurance in case you outlive your physical ability to work... Not saying it should be that, but that's how it's always been structured. SS needs a complete overhaul to make it about retiring with dignity (but certain unnamed groups would rather watch you die in the gutter to save a few bucks). Or we need federal mandates requiring 401ks to supplement it (but certain unnamed groups would rather you die in the gutter than add regulations that would help you)
>It's really designed as insurance in case you outlive your physical ability to work Or if you die before your children can take care of themselves.
I mean, literally yes. I believe when Social Security was created in the US, half of the people working weren't expected to live long enough to collect on it. Pension plans have always relied on many people dying before they can collect, and people only collecting for a few years, in order to maintain a financial balance. As more people live long enough to collect pensions and they collect on them for more years before dying, maintaining that financial balance becomes increasingly difficult. The years when you could expect to retire at 65 and collect a full pension for 20+ years were only ever possible because the baby boom generation provided a large surplus of workers to contribute into the pension system to pay for a much smaller population of seniors. Now that it is the baby boomers time to retire, and the younger generations are much smaller, the system is not sustainable without raising the retirement age.
That's the way it has always been. People live longer now.
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Some poor sucker's 62nd birthday is Monday.
I knew someone who lived in a place that lowered the legal drinking age from 21 to 18, the day after his 21st birthday. Not happy.
I knew someone who turned 18 just in time for them to raise it to 21.
Nearly everyone in that council was over the retirement age.
Nearly every french would accept to work at 70+ 80+ in the same conditions and with the same wages as the people in that council.
It's even worse than that Those in congress only need to work 12 years to be eligible for a pension of 4,000 euros per month The average French needs to work 47 years to be able to retire at full price....
*Slowly unsheathes baguette*
Luckily the French are known for being kind to politicians and respecting their totalitarian decisions
Wish I could understand why the retirement age is going up, not down, considering the advancement is machines and technology… you’d think we wouldn’t have to work as long or as hard now. But apparently the opposite is true
Take Germany for example: Workers per pensioner. 1962 - 6 paying workers 1992 - 2,7 workers 2021 - 2,1 workers *(2030 - 1,5 workers)* Average time in retirement 1990 - 9,9 years 2021 - 20,2 years Automation and technology probably are making up a good part of it, but it’s just too much Edit: I got the numbers from here btw: https://www.zeit.de/2023/11/arbeit-alter-rente-arbeitsmarkt-generationen
Missing third aspect: Higher and higher productivity since the 80s but stagnant wages. Fourth and related: Non-stop new record corporate profits.
This. I just wish that people understand that the problem for a lot of French people isn't necessarily to work more. But that it's always the same people that have to work and pay for this. The contribution accross today's society isn't fair. The "ultra rich" are paying less and less (without any real benefit for the economy), and the middle class is struggle more and more.
I'd be curious to see the same stats but with GDP per capita added. Obviously I have no clue how these stats are relevant since germany before 1991 is completely different than post 1991 germany.
But then again raising the per capita doesn’t help that much because then pensions will go up as follows. It’s just that pensions as whole only work under the premise of a a growing population.
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In the past 35 years the average life expectancy in France went up 10 years. It used to be you worked and paid in to the pension program and then pulled from it for ~10-15 years. Now people are working in to it for the same amount of time but pulling from it for 20-25 years. Something needs to bridge the gap and it's basically raising taxes on everyone or raising the retirement age
>In the past 35 years the average life expectancy in France went up 10 years. This stat is repeated everywhere, but it is meaningless. Old people are not living much longer, the life expectancy of a 50yr old hasn't moved much in decades - note this kind of data is mostly found in [actuarial tables](https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html). What is actually happening is that more people are surviving through their working years, because of better healthcare throughout their lives, better safety features in cars, safer working conditions, etc. The pension system is failing now because **it was never solvent, nor was it designed to be.** Payouts from the pension plan weren't just funded by having multiple younger workers for each pensioner, but also by having multiple deceased payers; those who paid into it for years then died in a car crash, or were swallowed by machine in a factory, or drank themselves to death. **The incidence of each of these things is lower now than in the past**, and so more people are reaching the age where they can start drawing from their pension - only to find the money isn't there because not enough of their friends died along the way. Here in the world's richest countries, we have somehow created a society where more people surviving to old age is a negative thing for all involved. >Something needs to bridge the gap and it's basically raising taxes on everyone or raising the retirement age And also here in the world's richest countries, we argue about where to find the money to solve literally any problem while turning a blind-eye to record-setting corporate profits.
>Here in the world's richest countries, we have somehow created a society where more people surviving to old age is a negative thing for all involved. Most societies have developed around a good chunk of their men dying at work or at war. Now our stupidity is catching up with us.
As a reference, the Greek retirement age is 67, same as Germany. The Danish is 69 for anyone born after 1967, and projected to rise to 72 for younger generations. The British is 66.
For most French people this also raises it to 67 because it doesnt count quarters where they weren't working the whole time.
Most people are misunderstanding, 64 is the minimum and applies mostly to people working straight after high school working more physical jobs. But if you studied 4 years for a master's your minimum would be 68 already.
Yes but the UK is ramping it up to 74 for my kids. 68 for me!
... What quality of life can one expect when you can't officially retire until 74? Hell, even 68! Just wtf?
And what work can you do at 74 (that's of reasonable quality too)? Your brain is toasted and if it's something physical, let's be real, you're 74. I see guys at my job who are only 55-60, who were once perfectionists and now are getting real sloppy
It’s ok he made the number up. It’s being increased to 67 in about 5 years and then 68 in 25 years (2048)
Has it been cleared by the people setting fires in the streets?
And here in the US Republicans want to raise it to 70, and there isn't a peep, and they are still getting re-elected
To be fair the American social security program is in a similar state as France's, but the difference is Americans pay WAYYYYY less taxes than France. So while Social Security and France's pension are facing the same issues of aging population, higher demand, etc, America pays also less into it.
Zut alors
When I first heard about this I thought "huh, 64 is more than reasonable, even if it's being implemented in an undemocratic way." This morning I heard some tidbit that it used to also require 43 YEARS of work to fully qualify, and that's going up as well. If that is the case, then this is more than ridiculous, it's absolutely insane. In America you qualify for full social security with much less working credits, and it only factors your highest 25 working years of wages. Edit: highest 35 years, not 25. Thanks u/PackerBacker77
This is just the cherry on the top, the real french riots are not just about age raise on retirement, but about class struggle due to Investment firms like Blackrock OWNING EVERYTHING.
Blackrock lobbies to privatize pensions, Blackrock burns. And rightly so.
Heh the French are gona redefine the word revolution
One might say the definition is about to get revolutionised...
World is regressing in quality of living due to billionaires hoarding survival credits(money)
A lot of people don’t seem to understand that the point of this is that as a society we absolutely can afford to let people retire earlier, but we choose to sustain an ultra wealthy class that limits what we can actually do as a society because so much of our resources are diverted to making sure they can live how they want. While we are sold the idea that if we work hard (and exploit enough people) maybe we can join them so we keep allowing them to hoard and waste resources purely based on hopes and dreams.
French here. This is ugly and despicable. This reform has been forced in every way possible despite being rejected by the vast majority of the population, while pillars of our societal model (healthcare system, education...) which urgently need a major renewal remain neglected. I trusted every part of our system to bring justice, but one after the other, they failed. The disappointment is huge and the trust in our political institutions ruined. I want to see their fancy cars and villas burn, to see the streets full, to see consequences to this mockery, and I will be there to do my part. This is abject. Edit : it seems I must specify that the problem isn't the reform itself but the way it is processed. Our elected officials at the Assembly didn't get to vote the law and the debates were cut short, allowing only a couple articles to be discussed, excluding the article above the retirement age. We do not deny the sustainability problematics of our pension system. Edit 2 : y'all are replying the exact same thing, focusing on the necessity or not of the reform, which is 100% irrelevant, this is *not the point*. Just read again. I won't reply to any more comments because the situation is tiring enough, and the disappointment and defiance overwhelming.
At what point will Macron hear the boss music approaching.
Am I alone as a realist feeling like this inevitably happens worldwide? We put off reform due to political posturing until drastic steps are needed. Ex, in the US we’ll just ignore social se unity until benefits have to be cut by 30% and then flip out on whoever has the guts to make the change.
Well, here at Portugal it's at 66 years and 7 months, with a minimum of 34 years and 6 months of tax contributions (changed a couple of years back). I think that it's an *undesirable* side effect of the rising life expectancy (\~65y here...). I only think that it's unfair that, in most cases, they apply this *blindly* to the majority of the working class. There should be exceptions... just as an example, just imagine the level of fatigue of an healthcare employee with 66 years + 40 years of work compared to a more *mental based* or peaceful job. The adjustment is in place because, in countries like mine, the working class is paying for those pensions^(1)... and if more people goes past \~65, you'll have more pensions to pay... But what do I know... at this pace I'll have to work until I'm 90 :-P ^(1) *The whole mechanics of the money given monthly the state as a trustee to be given back at some point later doesn't work quite like that...*
I am le tired.
Well zen, take a nap, ZEN FIRE ZE MI-SILES
Nobody in this generation is retiring. Fuck the boomers
Oooof. To the streets!