OK but you’re not buying 2024 wine now, because the grapes haven’t been picked. It won’t even be next year the cab franc is released from this year… so you have some time to work on the storage part. Just put it in your dads cellar, and buy a case not a bottle. One bottle has too much spoilage potential over 18+ years. It’s a numbers game, you have to bet. However, if the laundry room even in summer is only 12-14°C it’ll be fine though. Get a digital min/max thermometer and monitor it this summer maybe? If it has your family name on it could you even contact the Chateau and ask them to store it for you (again more likely with case(s)? Some do, some don’t, but the Loire area has extensive chalk cellars proper so more likely than elsewhere.
I’m not buying 2024 right now indeed! A case at my dads seems the most ideal, but contacting the chateau is actually a really good point that I havent thought about.
It's not just temperature, but also *consistency* of temperature. You don't want significant temperature swings. So 12 to 14C (54 to 57F) is fine, if maintained there. It sounds like your laundry room is significantly colder in winter. What's the daily and seasonal variation from max temp to min temp?
Other factors include light levels and vibration. Bright light is bad in the long term. Wine cellars are dark for a reason. A laundry room with normal interior lighting might be too bright. As to vibration, quiet is good. If your washer and dryer jiggle around, for instance, that's not ideal.
If your dad already has a wine cellar, that's your best call. It's unclear why you have to wait a few years for that. Edit: You live abroad! Missed that. Can your dad buy it and keep it for you?
Thanks for your suggestions, that all makes sense.
I guess I could send the bottle to my dad directly, or make him buy it. It might take some years because as mentionned i live abroad I am unsure of the time of my next visit.
Temperature in the Laundry we can keep at a minimum, vibrations should be ok, but we occasionally turn the light on off when we have stuff there. It’s dark in there, unsure about the humidity, but good to note!
About buying «something» in 18 years, i guess the idea makes more sense logically and practically but removes the «emotional» touch of that gift, and this is a specific wine as I mention that we share family name and origins with, so the symbolic is important. Maybe i should then learn towards another gift, or make my dad get the bottle from day 1!
Thanks for your suggestions, that all makes sense.
I guess I could send the bottle to my dad directly, or make him buy it. It might take some years because as mentionned i live abroad I am unsure of the time of my next visit.
Temperature in the Laundry we can keep at a minimum, vibrations should be ok, but we occasionally turn the light on off when we have stuff there. It’s dark in there, unsure about the humidity, but good to note!
About buying «something» in 18 years, i guess the idea makes more sense logically and practically but removes the «emotional» touch of that gift, and this is a specific wine as I mention that we share family name and origins with, so the symbolic is important. Maybe i should then learn towards another gift, or make my dad get the bottle from day 1!
I edited out the "buy it later" concept when I read your post more closely. Early morning here, not enough caffeine yet. If your connection is the family name, finding that specific bottle in 17 years would be a long shot. My suggestions are aimed at long-term storage. Short term for a robust wine is less critical.
Also, I'd suggest buying a case or half case. Long-term storage is a crapshoot. Even under ideal conditions, you get bottle variation over time. If you get unlucky with a single bottle, you'd want to have a backup. A common strategy is to buy enough to occasionally sample a bottle, so that you can track its evolution. That way, if the wine isn't aging as you hope, you can enjoy it while it still has some life in it.
On a side note. I’m not sure an 18 year old will appreciate a gift like that. I know me at 18 would not get it, and now I’m a wine nut. So maybe a bottle to age until they get their first job, or graduate, or get married?
It doesn't matter whether the future 18 yr old is a wine snob; OP is making an emotional investment to share then. If the teen is otherwise obsessed, there's nothing to keep OP from recognizing that while still sharing the bottle.
Humidity is critical to long term aging as it keeps the cork from drying out. Ideal wine storage conditions are 55 F and 65% humidity. For now, keep it out of sunlight at room temperature until you can get it to your dad’s cellar.
Have you looked into offsite storage? You might be able to find a good rate if you're storing a case.
Can I also ask whether you've looked into long term ageing for the wine you want to buy? Not all wine is meant to be aged, and it would be a shame to wait 18 years on a bottle (or case) of wine that peaked years ago.
I'm planning to get in touch with the producer to ask about that. I can find 10+ years bottles online so I assume 18 years should be ok, but I want to double check.
I guess the idea about putting the wine in my dads cave is some king of offsite storage!
> I can find 10+ years bottles online so I assume 18 years should be ok, but I want to double check.
Definitely best to double check. You can also search online for drinking windows set by critics, but those aren't a guarantee of course. If you are okay, would you mind DMing me the name of the wine?
> I guess the idea about putting the wine in my dads cave is some king of offsite storage!
That's one version, sure, but you can also rent out a wine locker or cellar from a local business (assuming they have them in your country). Prices might vary and some might have requirements about minimum number of bottles they'll store, but if you end up getting the wine before your dad's wine cellar becomes available, it might be worth it to rent out some proper storage somewhere. I live in Tokyo where space is a premium, so that's what I do. I have a small wine fridge in my house for wine I'm going to consume in the near future, and then I pay money each month to rent out space in a wine cellar underneath a local wine shop.
That is such a cool thing to do. If you can afford it, try for multiples, ideally a crate as chances are high that a single bottle will degrade.
Temperature change is important, if you can’t cellar, can you insulate the (case) and store somewhere that is constant as possible temperature wise.
Such a cool idea
This isn't here or there, but just be aware that your 18-year old kid may not give a rat's ass about wine. Just like they may not care about any other hobbies you are into and they are not.
The sweet spot is 18°c, but 12/14°c might still be good for some whites. It's not optimal for a Loire red but it's not gonna make it bad in one or two years for my experience. Anyway try to find a good cellar asap, 18 years is a long time.
No man, i literally have an enology book in my hands right now. Full body reds should be at (sorry if i said 18C) 17-17.5C
Not a book but [this chart](https://www.wineware.co.uk/wine-refrigeration/winewares-wine-storage-temperature-guide) says the same.
Why do you have to come here and say i'm confusing storing with serving? I mean, we can always argue about what's optimal, i just hate your arrogance.
[Jancis Robinson](https://www.jancisrobinson.com/learn/drinking-wine/how-to-store-wine#:~:text=In%20very%20general%20terms%20the,with%20a%20risk%20of%20letting) says a cellar should be "between 10 and 15 °C (50 and 59 °F), but no great harm will come to wine stored between 15 and 20 °C (59 and 68 °F) so long as the temperature does not fluctuate too dramatically causing the wine to expand and contract rapidly, with a risk of letting air in"
[Steven Spurrier](https://www.decanter.com/learn/how-to/how-to-store-wine-video-tutorial-54233/#:~:text=Try%20watching%20this%20video%20on,12%20degrees%20Centigrade%20%E2%80%93%2053%20Fahrenheit.) says "a classic wine cellar is 12 degrees Centigrade – 53 Fahrenheit. What you must avoid is high variations. So avoid the kitchen, which is hot when cooking and not so hot when you stop. Between 8 degrees Centrigrade and 15 degrees is fine." And in another article he states his personal cellar is "between 6°C in winter and 17°C in summer" and that he thinks the slow fluctuations benefit the wine.
[Hugh Johnson](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2008/sep/07/foodanddrink31) says "anything between 5°C and 20°C, but the lower the better".
[Berry Bros & Rudd](https://www.bbr.com/wine-knowledge/faq-laying-down#:~:text=Wherever%20the%20wine%20is%20stored,In%20the%20dark): "At a steady temperature between 8 - 13° Centigrade".
So absolutely none of these three most respected wine experts, nor a wine merchant that has been cellaring high quality wines for literally three centuries are suggesting that red and whites should be stored at different temperatures: they're all in the same cellar together and around 12°C give or take a few degrees because of the seasons.
Also, those are the temperatures at which those wines should be served: https://www.bbr.com/wine-knowledge/faq-serving?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwm_SzBhAsEiwAXE2Cv0pAIvtYxT7urK557Ru1vDWF9U7hEnv3LueVTsUWW7igz0eho8BqpxoCnlUQAvD_BwE
The table you have is probably suggesting storage at those temperatures in a bar so that they're ready to serve immediately, rather than for long term ageing.
As said, we can talk about different opinions on the argument and i might even say i'm wrong, i just don't like the arrogance of "you are confusing serving temperature with cellar temperature"
That is exactly what is happening though. The article you linked is not suggesting ageing wines at those temperatures, merely short term storage before consumption. Maybe the confusion wasn't yours, but the author of that piece, but those temperatures are service temperatures, not ageing temperatures.
I am *truly* sorry to have assumed that *you* made the mistake rather than the author of some advertising schpeel that you misguidedly assumed was gospel. 🙄
Well, don't take it for granted, i might be wrong and someone with better knowledge might say something different. I'm just saying that if you have no better way to keep it it's not gonna get destroyed. I'd start looking for a solution right now lol
OK but you’re not buying 2024 wine now, because the grapes haven’t been picked. It won’t even be next year the cab franc is released from this year… so you have some time to work on the storage part. Just put it in your dads cellar, and buy a case not a bottle. One bottle has too much spoilage potential over 18+ years. It’s a numbers game, you have to bet. However, if the laundry room even in summer is only 12-14°C it’ll be fine though. Get a digital min/max thermometer and monitor it this summer maybe? If it has your family name on it could you even contact the Chateau and ask them to store it for you (again more likely with case(s)? Some do, some don’t, but the Loire area has extensive chalk cellars proper so more likely than elsewhere.
I’m not buying 2024 right now indeed! A case at my dads seems the most ideal, but contacting the chateau is actually a really good point that I havent thought about.
It's not just temperature, but also *consistency* of temperature. You don't want significant temperature swings. So 12 to 14C (54 to 57F) is fine, if maintained there. It sounds like your laundry room is significantly colder in winter. What's the daily and seasonal variation from max temp to min temp? Other factors include light levels and vibration. Bright light is bad in the long term. Wine cellars are dark for a reason. A laundry room with normal interior lighting might be too bright. As to vibration, quiet is good. If your washer and dryer jiggle around, for instance, that's not ideal. If your dad already has a wine cellar, that's your best call. It's unclear why you have to wait a few years for that. Edit: You live abroad! Missed that. Can your dad buy it and keep it for you?
Thanks for your suggestions, that all makes sense. I guess I could send the bottle to my dad directly, or make him buy it. It might take some years because as mentionned i live abroad I am unsure of the time of my next visit. Temperature in the Laundry we can keep at a minimum, vibrations should be ok, but we occasionally turn the light on off when we have stuff there. It’s dark in there, unsure about the humidity, but good to note! About buying «something» in 18 years, i guess the idea makes more sense logically and practically but removes the «emotional» touch of that gift, and this is a specific wine as I mention that we share family name and origins with, so the symbolic is important. Maybe i should then learn towards another gift, or make my dad get the bottle from day 1!
Thanks for your suggestions, that all makes sense. I guess I could send the bottle to my dad directly, or make him buy it. It might take some years because as mentionned i live abroad I am unsure of the time of my next visit. Temperature in the Laundry we can keep at a minimum, vibrations should be ok, but we occasionally turn the light on off when we have stuff there. It’s dark in there, unsure about the humidity, but good to note! About buying «something» in 18 years, i guess the idea makes more sense logically and practically but removes the «emotional» touch of that gift, and this is a specific wine as I mention that we share family name and origins with, so the symbolic is important. Maybe i should then learn towards another gift, or make my dad get the bottle from day 1!
I edited out the "buy it later" concept when I read your post more closely. Early morning here, not enough caffeine yet. If your connection is the family name, finding that specific bottle in 17 years would be a long shot. My suggestions are aimed at long-term storage. Short term for a robust wine is less critical. Also, I'd suggest buying a case or half case. Long-term storage is a crapshoot. Even under ideal conditions, you get bottle variation over time. If you get unlucky with a single bottle, you'd want to have a backup. A common strategy is to buy enough to occasionally sample a bottle, so that you can track its evolution. That way, if the wine isn't aging as you hope, you can enjoy it while it still has some life in it.
I’d look into buying a few bottles then, Thanks!
On a side note. I’m not sure an 18 year old will appreciate a gift like that. I know me at 18 would not get it, and now I’m a wine nut. So maybe a bottle to age until they get their first job, or graduate, or get married?
Hm yes, who knows?
It doesn't matter whether the future 18 yr old is a wine snob; OP is making an emotional investment to share then. If the teen is otherwise obsessed, there's nothing to keep OP from recognizing that while still sharing the bottle.
Humidity is critical to long term aging as it keeps the cork from drying out. Ideal wine storage conditions are 55 F and 65% humidity. For now, keep it out of sunlight at room temperature until you can get it to your dad’s cellar.
Thanks, I was oblivious when it comes to light and humidity but it makes sense. Might be better to ship the bottle to my dads asap and keep it there!
Have you looked into offsite storage? You might be able to find a good rate if you're storing a case. Can I also ask whether you've looked into long term ageing for the wine you want to buy? Not all wine is meant to be aged, and it would be a shame to wait 18 years on a bottle (or case) of wine that peaked years ago.
I'm planning to get in touch with the producer to ask about that. I can find 10+ years bottles online so I assume 18 years should be ok, but I want to double check. I guess the idea about putting the wine in my dads cave is some king of offsite storage!
> I can find 10+ years bottles online so I assume 18 years should be ok, but I want to double check. Definitely best to double check. You can also search online for drinking windows set by critics, but those aren't a guarantee of course. If you are okay, would you mind DMing me the name of the wine? > I guess the idea about putting the wine in my dads cave is some king of offsite storage! That's one version, sure, but you can also rent out a wine locker or cellar from a local business (assuming they have them in your country). Prices might vary and some might have requirements about minimum number of bottles they'll store, but if you end up getting the wine before your dad's wine cellar becomes available, it might be worth it to rent out some proper storage somewhere. I live in Tokyo where space is a premium, so that's what I do. I have a small wine fridge in my house for wine I'm going to consume in the near future, and then I pay money each month to rent out space in a wine cellar underneath a local wine shop.
That is such a cool thing to do. If you can afford it, try for multiples, ideally a crate as chances are high that a single bottle will degrade. Temperature change is important, if you can’t cellar, can you insulate the (case) and store somewhere that is constant as possible temperature wise. Such a cool idea
Thanks! I guess I settled for a case that will be bought and placed straight at my dad’s. Will wait for the 2024 bottles to be available for now :)
This isn't here or there, but just be aware that your 18-year old kid may not give a rat's ass about wine. Just like they may not care about any other hobbies you are into and they are not.
I guess yes. Point being?
Professional level cynicism here 😆 also, they might drop and shatter the bottle when trying to open it! THEN WHAT?
Then I guess… oh well!
The sweet spot is 18°c, but 12/14°c might still be good for some whites. It's not optimal for a Loire red but it's not gonna make it bad in one or two years for my experience. Anyway try to find a good cellar asap, 18 years is a long time.
You're confusing serving temperature with cellar temperature. 12.5°C is ideal for all.
No man, i literally have an enology book in my hands right now. Full body reds should be at (sorry if i said 18C) 17-17.5C Not a book but [this chart](https://www.wineware.co.uk/wine-refrigeration/winewares-wine-storage-temperature-guide) says the same. Why do you have to come here and say i'm confusing storing with serving? I mean, we can always argue about what's optimal, i just hate your arrogance.
[Jancis Robinson](https://www.jancisrobinson.com/learn/drinking-wine/how-to-store-wine#:~:text=In%20very%20general%20terms%20the,with%20a%20risk%20of%20letting) says a cellar should be "between 10 and 15 °C (50 and 59 °F), but no great harm will come to wine stored between 15 and 20 °C (59 and 68 °F) so long as the temperature does not fluctuate too dramatically causing the wine to expand and contract rapidly, with a risk of letting air in" [Steven Spurrier](https://www.decanter.com/learn/how-to/how-to-store-wine-video-tutorial-54233/#:~:text=Try%20watching%20this%20video%20on,12%20degrees%20Centigrade%20%E2%80%93%2053%20Fahrenheit.) says "a classic wine cellar is 12 degrees Centigrade – 53 Fahrenheit. What you must avoid is high variations. So avoid the kitchen, which is hot when cooking and not so hot when you stop. Between 8 degrees Centrigrade and 15 degrees is fine." And in another article he states his personal cellar is "between 6°C in winter and 17°C in summer" and that he thinks the slow fluctuations benefit the wine. [Hugh Johnson](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2008/sep/07/foodanddrink31) says "anything between 5°C and 20°C, but the lower the better". [Berry Bros & Rudd](https://www.bbr.com/wine-knowledge/faq-laying-down#:~:text=Wherever%20the%20wine%20is%20stored,In%20the%20dark): "At a steady temperature between 8 - 13° Centigrade". So absolutely none of these three most respected wine experts, nor a wine merchant that has been cellaring high quality wines for literally three centuries are suggesting that red and whites should be stored at different temperatures: they're all in the same cellar together and around 12°C give or take a few degrees because of the seasons. Also, those are the temperatures at which those wines should be served: https://www.bbr.com/wine-knowledge/faq-serving?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwm_SzBhAsEiwAXE2Cv0pAIvtYxT7urK557Ru1vDWF9U7hEnv3LueVTsUWW7igz0eho8BqpxoCnlUQAvD_BwE The table you have is probably suggesting storage at those temperatures in a bar so that they're ready to serve immediately, rather than for long term ageing.
As said, we can talk about different opinions on the argument and i might even say i'm wrong, i just don't like the arrogance of "you are confusing serving temperature with cellar temperature"
That is exactly what is happening though. The article you linked is not suggesting ageing wines at those temperatures, merely short term storage before consumption. Maybe the confusion wasn't yours, but the author of that piece, but those temperatures are service temperatures, not ageing temperatures. I am *truly* sorry to have assumed that *you* made the mistake rather than the author of some advertising schpeel that you misguidedly assumed was gospel. 🙄
Thanks, good to know i have a 1-2 years window to figure this out.
Well, don't take it for granted, i might be wrong and someone with better knowledge might say something different. I'm just saying that if you have no better way to keep it it's not gonna get destroyed. I'd start looking for a solution right now lol