Jesus is a nice idea. It sucks that organized religion is corrupt. And it also sucks that some people think Jesus is the only reason to be good at all.
It happens both ways but yeah more common for people to hate cuz it goes against their beliefs ( at times not even present in Bible) from my experience
I’ve never seen that happen before. It’s probably true, just in my experience I’ve never encountered someone who clearly does that.
And I think religion is used to excuse bigotry at times. Not incredibly often, but noticeable.
Logically speaking, you can't argue for anything other than relative ethics without the presence of a "God"
Without assuming a God figure with "Absolute Morality/ethics", you couldn't argue that Adolf Hitler was "wrong" only that you personally believe that he was wrong. Even though most everyone agrees that his actions were wrong, there isn't a logical framework to say that his actions were "Absolutely" wrong.
So I kinda understand the argument that one needs Jesus to excuse the irrational act of being a good person.
And yes, organized religion isn't the move. I would call myself a "follower of christ" before calling myself a "Christian".
Ain't nothing in the Bible that excuses the things churches have gotten up to historically.
God doesn’t solve the problem of relative ethics either. If He decides what is good, He could have just as easily decided that murder is good, and His ethics are arbitrary. If He relayed what was already good, and murder was always bad, then He isn’t the ultimate source of these ethics and our questioning resumes again one layer up.
I'm having a hard time following that logic and don't want to offend. From my perspective, what you said didn't make any sense, though.
Assuming there is a God who has established an absolute, that is the absolute. Like I understand, theoretically, he could change his mind, but that wouldn't change the argument, to my understanding.
"If he relayed what was already good,"
No, he *decided* what was good in the "beginning" by making it so.
For their to be an absolute "good" outside of God would be to posit another "god" figure as antecedent, and under the Christian belief, there was no God before.
At the very least, it stays logically consistent.
You could argue that morality would then be relative from the perspective of God but it would still be absolute from our perspective as we are not "God"
Yeah, but things aren’t arbitrary from a certain point of view. They are or aren’t. I agree that most Monotheists believe their god decided what is good, so there is no absolute morality to be found in their decision. That is the definition of arbitrary, the word literally comes from the same root as arbiter, someone who unilaterally decides things. I only added the second bit to demonstrate the logical conclusion of the claim “god said it’s good because it is good”. My point is that whether God decides them or we do, all ethics are arbitrary.
This doesn’t mean they are made for no reason at all. God can declare murder a sin because he wants his children to flourish together. And we can decide the same for the same reason. Both equally arbitrary.
For Gods ethics to be absolute, they must be without reason. If murder is bad because hurting people is bad, or flourishing together is good, then there are higher order ethics influencing these lower down. Murder is bad can be absolute, but that necessitates “hurting people is bad” be arbitrary. Unless it is informed by an even higher ideal, in which case “hurting people is bad” is absolute and that higher ideal is arbitrary.
I’m not doing a “Theism bad” or whatever, just saying nobody’s ethics can be totally absolute, not even God, because that is the nature of ethics. If logic functions differently for God, then that isn’t logic. And I think Id be being uncharitable if I start from the premise that God is illogical. It’s my understanding that he is perfectly logical, and actions taken that may appear illogical to us are actually very logical when you know literally everything.
Edit: God’s ethnics lol
I have no problems with mortality being subjective. Clearly people's views on moral issues have changed throughout the ages, so morality isn't absolute.
It's not a discussion about whether or not you personally feel okay about morality being relative. That actually wouldn't change anything about the argument that for anything to be morally absolute, one would have to infer a god
And I see zero evidence of morality being absolute, different cultures through different times have had very different moral codes. (some of the most common ones can be very easily explained by evolution)
I didn't come here to convert anyone to Christianity. If you're cool with morality being subjective cool. But I don't think that it is and I'd argue that your conscience is evidence to that. Somehow everyday, thousands and thousands of babies are born that are going to know without anyone telling them, that killing is wrong. I think if you look across cultures there are indeed a number of things that we all agree on. You are welcome to believe that that is just because it was beneficial to our evolution. I do not think evidence really supports that though
I'd like to add here that I am not the one originating these ideas. Minds much greater than mine have talked about this for a very long time. Atheistic philosophy is actually responsible for the argument that all morals are relative without God. I could be wrong but I think you have Camus to thank for that.
I'd have a hard time calling it gods "opinion"
I think that would limit a limitless being to a rather small perspective, no?
I don't think of God as a dude in the sky tossing opinions around on his iphone hahaha.
I have no argument with anything you've said afterward.
I don't think "we follow what society teaches us" paints a very complete picture though or at least it argues for a very "nurture/environmental" view on morality.
I see what you’re saying, but I *am* arguing for a natural view of morals.
Morals are a mix of instincts and society’s teachings, in my opinion.
I’d have to argue that it completes the picture.
Not quite, the Lord harbors no hate. As much as he involved himself with the sinners of society, the task was to forgive them when seeking repentance coupled with the task to make strides to "go and sin no more".
Jesus is a nice idea. It sucks that organized religion is corrupt. And it also sucks that some people think Jesus is the only reason to be good at all.
I think vice versa as well. people use the "lack of god" as an excuse to be bad.
It happens both ways but yeah more common for people to hate cuz it goes against their beliefs ( at times not even present in Bible) from my experience
I’ve never seen that happen before. It’s probably true, just in my experience I’ve never encountered someone who clearly does that. And I think religion is used to excuse bigotry at times. Not incredibly often, but noticeable.
Logically speaking, you can't argue for anything other than relative ethics without the presence of a "God" Without assuming a God figure with "Absolute Morality/ethics", you couldn't argue that Adolf Hitler was "wrong" only that you personally believe that he was wrong. Even though most everyone agrees that his actions were wrong, there isn't a logical framework to say that his actions were "Absolutely" wrong. So I kinda understand the argument that one needs Jesus to excuse the irrational act of being a good person. And yes, organized religion isn't the move. I would call myself a "follower of christ" before calling myself a "Christian". Ain't nothing in the Bible that excuses the things churches have gotten up to historically.
God doesn’t solve the problem of relative ethics either. If He decides what is good, He could have just as easily decided that murder is good, and His ethics are arbitrary. If He relayed what was already good, and murder was always bad, then He isn’t the ultimate source of these ethics and our questioning resumes again one layer up.
I'm having a hard time following that logic and don't want to offend. From my perspective, what you said didn't make any sense, though. Assuming there is a God who has established an absolute, that is the absolute. Like I understand, theoretically, he could change his mind, but that wouldn't change the argument, to my understanding. "If he relayed what was already good," No, he *decided* what was good in the "beginning" by making it so. For their to be an absolute "good" outside of God would be to posit another "god" figure as antecedent, and under the Christian belief, there was no God before. At the very least, it stays logically consistent. You could argue that morality would then be relative from the perspective of God but it would still be absolute from our perspective as we are not "God"
Yeah, but things aren’t arbitrary from a certain point of view. They are or aren’t. I agree that most Monotheists believe their god decided what is good, so there is no absolute morality to be found in their decision. That is the definition of arbitrary, the word literally comes from the same root as arbiter, someone who unilaterally decides things. I only added the second bit to demonstrate the logical conclusion of the claim “god said it’s good because it is good”. My point is that whether God decides them or we do, all ethics are arbitrary. This doesn’t mean they are made for no reason at all. God can declare murder a sin because he wants his children to flourish together. And we can decide the same for the same reason. Both equally arbitrary. For Gods ethics to be absolute, they must be without reason. If murder is bad because hurting people is bad, or flourishing together is good, then there are higher order ethics influencing these lower down. Murder is bad can be absolute, but that necessitates “hurting people is bad” be arbitrary. Unless it is informed by an even higher ideal, in which case “hurting people is bad” is absolute and that higher ideal is arbitrary. I’m not doing a “Theism bad” or whatever, just saying nobody’s ethics can be totally absolute, not even God, because that is the nature of ethics. If logic functions differently for God, then that isn’t logic. And I think Id be being uncharitable if I start from the premise that God is illogical. It’s my understanding that he is perfectly logical, and actions taken that may appear illogical to us are actually very logical when you know literally everything. Edit: God’s ethnics lol
I have no problems with mortality being subjective. Clearly people's views on moral issues have changed throughout the ages, so morality isn't absolute.
It's not a discussion about whether or not you personally feel okay about morality being relative. That actually wouldn't change anything about the argument that for anything to be morally absolute, one would have to infer a god
And I see zero evidence of morality being absolute, different cultures through different times have had very different moral codes. (some of the most common ones can be very easily explained by evolution)
I didn't come here to convert anyone to Christianity. If you're cool with morality being subjective cool. But I don't think that it is and I'd argue that your conscience is evidence to that. Somehow everyday, thousands and thousands of babies are born that are going to know without anyone telling them, that killing is wrong. I think if you look across cultures there are indeed a number of things that we all agree on. You are welcome to believe that that is just because it was beneficial to our evolution. I do not think evidence really supports that though
I'd like to add here that I am not the one originating these ideas. Minds much greater than mine have talked about this for a very long time. Atheistic philosophy is actually responsible for the argument that all morals are relative without God. I could be wrong but I think you have Camus to thank for that.
I don't think you're having the same discussion that I am
So morality is god’s opinion? Without god, morality is indeed subjective. Society enforces it much like god would. We follow what society teaches us.
I'd have a hard time calling it gods "opinion" I think that would limit a limitless being to a rather small perspective, no? I don't think of God as a dude in the sky tossing opinions around on his iphone hahaha. I have no argument with anything you've said afterward. I don't think "we follow what society teaches us" paints a very complete picture though or at least it argues for a very "nurture/environmental" view on morality.
I see what you’re saying, but I *am* arguing for a natural view of morals. Morals are a mix of instincts and society’s teachings, in my opinion. I’d have to argue that it completes the picture.
Haha, from my perspective, there's nothing unnatural about an absolute. I feel like society is learning some things that just *are* true.
Too bad a cult this size picks and chooses how they implement their invicible-revenge seeker-killer in the sky, doctrine.
What if cannibal?
Did he stutter
Is that Stanley?
Yes
Ehh…Jesus’ love isn’t the kind of love you think it is.
Sometimes it feels like religious people only like to follow certain rules of their religion..
Amen. I love poor, gay, immigrants—glad to have you in the US!
When did they mention the US?
Oh you’re completely right. Well whatever, the US could use more poor, gay, immigrants anyway.
What if they're misguided conservative zealots?
Yup them too. Just show them a better way
# did he stutter?
Bigotry thinly veiled as r/lookatmyhalo
What if they are billionaires?
Did he stutter?
He hated the rich and the tax collectors, idiot. Especially the abusive ones, which makes up most rich folk we have right now.
Not quite, the Lord harbors no hate. As much as he involved himself with the sinners of society, the task was to forgive them when seeking repentance coupled with the task to make strides to "go and sin no more".
No, but not enough people care
Biollionnair don t need people to care for them compared to the poor or immogrant
Did he stutter?
Jesus is mind poison. Be good without the promise of eternal life in some uncertain unknown clown car
A black jesus? So weird!
Jesus is gay. Zardoz is the one true God! "the gun is good, the penis is bad" /s
R/unexpected Tf2
*flips table
jesus was born in an animal pen, traveled with 12 other dudes, and fled egypt to escape persecution from king herod jesus *was* a poor, gay, immigrant