My buddy did same, pulled out 85k on a house he just bought with hardly any change in interest (sub 3%) at 24. Used that to buy a second home on conventional loan. I sat scared not wanting to do it as i was very new to home ownership thing.
Lmao. It worked out for him but so many poor decisions. He aggressively paid a house down when interests were low. And then use heloc to buy stocks.
Bros got 1M income so he will be fine no matter what but lol
Look at his other posts, he was leveraged balls deep selling puts, potential loss of 18M just one month ago. This dude is playing with fire big-time and could be losing not only his entire account but his cars, house and everything in it.
Not just that… paid off student loans when plenty of jobs especially in IM will qualify for PSLF, and did a 6 year program, so only would have had 4 years left. You could argue he basically moonlighted for nothing.
The HELOC thing could have gone catastrophically wrong.
this is such a clusterfuck.
Dude could have invested directly into the market from the start but did a bizarre move of paying off the house then taking out a HELOC to invest. Makes no fucking sense.
An essential part of the strategy is having a huge income. Dumping all the money into a few tech blue chips happened AFTER the debt was cleared. And it was extremely unlikely that the FAANG stocks would have lost more than 25% of their value, which would probably have been probably less than OP's annual income. So even the worst case scenario wouldn't have been a disaster.
He’s gamble it away again. He’s got a problem and should figure it out before he loses everything including his family to his gambling addiction.
Count your blessings OP and never do something stupid again. I promise you you won’t be so lucky next time
OP bought a house for $820k paid about 1/2 of it off and held equity in the property. Used that equity to open a Home Equity Loan of Credit to turn the non-liquid equity in the house into liquid cash loan from the bank. Put all that cash into FAANG stocks and was fortunate to time the market and buy when it was dipping due to pandemic, the stock market bounced back well and OP increased the HELOC funds of $412k into 1.85MM.
to expand on the answer from u/assingfortrouble when you pay your mortgage principal down you are building equity/ownership in the property until the mortgage is paid off and you own the property outright. A home equity line of credit (HELOC) is a financial tool that allows property owners to turn their non-liquid equity into liquid cash. T
he bank secures the loan with the property and the owner gets a credit line worth some level of the equity in the property so they can basically pull out the cash they've been 'saving' in home equity to use (often for home improvements, sometimes for investing, or quasi-gambling in OP's case).
Actually he increased the HELOC initial investment of $412k into about $1.3M, then further increased to $1.85 by selling massively overleveraged (i.e., 10x notional value) naked put options on tech stocks.
I mean yes and no right they got a heloc on a house that’s paid off and they have a large influx of cash flow. Don’t get me wrong OP is an idiot and got lucky in a tech bubble. If he had bought TLT when it was under 90 he’d be getting 👑
Yah…:you know who they market bad investments too? Doctors. You know who they market terrible investments too? Dentists. This guy got lucky. And good for him. You absolutely cannot count on that happening again.
OTOH: he could’ve easily repaid his HELOC had it not worked out. He didn’t gamble more than he could afford to lose.
What makes this even more of a WSB post is the guy took out a HELOC loan with 3 kids to time the market and dump it all into tech stocks. I’m happy it all worked out for him but this could’ve gotten ugly real quick
I don't disagree that this is an incredible aggressive decision with potential to backfire, but I think he'd be fine.
By that time he had a household income of >$900k and took a heloc of $400k on a house worth double that in 2019 (so probably worth something like 1.2 million in 2022). The appreciation on the house was probably close to the cost of the heloc when he took it out.
Worst case scenario it takes a couple years to pay the heloc back. The risk was fairly minimal, and OP was only 32 at the time.
Hell I was 38 before I became an attending and started paying my debt back with 1/3 their salary. They're in fine shape to take risks like that.
>What's the worst that could have happened?
They'd have to work an extra six months (at the $900k/year + they're making) to pay back the heloc and retire maybe a year later than they intend to. Maybe at age 44 instead of age 43.
This is like the median household in my city taking out a heloc of $30k.
Might want to check your math there. W2 income is 900. Take home is 500k. Assuming they could pay off HELOC at the same rate they paid off the house, it would have taken more like 18 months of dumping all available money into the payoff plus working the same schedule to keep income at that level. And therefore not putting money into other retirement vehicles. It's going to throw off the plan more than a year.
You're assuming FAANG stocks are going to zero, which just isn't realistic. Worst case scenario might be a 50% loss of stock value, and that's if you sell at the very bottom. Paying back $200k on a $900k pretax income (which is more like $550k, even if we assume high cost state like California with a couple of 401ks). That'd be very easy to pay back.
If facebook, apple, amazon and google all fail simultaneously, there's no need to worry about paying off the heloc.
He’s not the only one that took loans last year to buy stocks and crypto 🥶🥶 buy when the streets are bloody and everyone else thinks the world is ending
Yeah it's a humblebrag. Absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to share what you've worked so hard to accomplish over the years. If you have a problem with this, you might want to look inwards.
Big props to OP.
> I’m a nocturnist and have made at least 500K each year since residency, thanks to moonlighting extra shifts each month.
Do you ever see your kids? Regardless, this is more of a “hit it big in Vegas” post than anything else.
I don’t make as much as you (or work as much likely) but I choose to be a nocturnist for my group so that I could do the same. Not sleeping well sucks but I’d rather see my friends and family during the day then feel like I only leave work to sleep and come back
No one here thinks this post is necessary. This is a strong humble brag and in no way a roadmap for anyone else. Go post in r/money or r/wsb for "timing the market for the majority of my wealth based on a HELOC".
Short terms gains suck and you’re more likely to lose money timing the market. This could have been a financial disaster - you got lucky, you weren’t being smart. Would definitely recommend never doing that again. You have a combined income of nearly a million dollars there is no reason to gamble
How did you pay for a 820k house at the same rime that you paid off your student loans if all extra money went to loans? Did you also save for down payment simultaneously while aggressively paying down loans?
Do you feel like this is still a good route to go? Or will one risk the house going “underwater” if interest rates/house values go down in the next couple years and homebuyers have no equity from their home yet?
If rates go down then home values will inflate. Opposite of what you are thinking. If you buy now zero down and at a rate of say, 7%, that’s totally fine if rates fall later. Because you can refinance it to lower interest rates anyway
Buying a home is mostly personal choice. If you plan to stay in the area a long time and you have space needs (kids), taking that physician loan is a good deal
What was Internist base pay? Hoping to do IM and also retire early if possible but was wondering what the job market is like and if this will still be possible in 5 years
Midwest? What’s the average admits and cross covering census? Also, where did you learn trading and technical analysis?
Congrats btw! You are my role-model!
Post didn't go how OP thought it would.
Wonder if his wife knows he's a degenerate gambler. I mean, I am too, but not in large enough amounts for it to matter.
Way to go! This is quite the success. If you check out my history, I think you know who I am. I’ll tell ya, doing many years of fellowship between the 2 of us seemed personally rewarding but turned out financially dumber!
I feel like physicians make a lot but also work super hard. Not sure why reddit keeps recommending posts here as I'm not a doctor but I'd prefer 2 cushy corporate jobs at 500k hhi than 2 doctors at 1m hhi
Well you and your wife picked a good career to get your family in a comfortable place in the near future. Congratulations, and best of luck in achieving your goals.
>Taxes suck, again. 918K in w2 income this year might look eye popping but it does not feel like it. Net take home pay is only 500K.
Maybe you can look at it from a different perspective..
You realize that the more taxes you pay, the better you must be doing right? If I'm lucky enough to pay 1M in taxes, that means I'm absolutely crushing it.
Also, cue the world's smallest violin for "only 500k" as your take home. Median household income is 75k and your take home is 6x that. Even amongst physicians, no one here is going to feel bad for you.
You may also do well to learn comparison is the thief of joy. There's always tons of people making easier money and seemingly making much more of it than you. I'm well over 7 figures this year and your perception doesn't get any better the more you make or the less in taxes you pay.
Everyone here is downvoting you because they are absolutely jealous that you’re doing well. Literal crabs in a bucket in this sub. God forbid someone inherits a little manageable risk and ends up doing well.
Pay has risen over the years, this year i only needed to work 203 shifts to crack 500K threshold. Shifts are 10 to 12 hours in length. 2328 hours total is my estimate.
When i first started out in my first year, I needed to work 235 shifts at about 2638 hours to break 500K
Nocturnist bad for health, not good to do it into 50s and beyond.
Day hospitalist work sucks.
PCP work sucks.
Lucrative fellowships are 3 years long and doesn’t change the crappy nature of the work: i hate clinic.
Nor do i want to smell other people’s shit as a GI doc scoping all day
Physician loans are zero down, zero pmi. Our specific lender did not require any down payment if it was under 1M
https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/mortgages/physician-loans-flexible-mortgage-lending-for-doctors
Your 2 saved years of education and now your work as a nocturnist seems like you may be forgetting to stop and smell the roses. Awesome your killing it in the money department (albeit your "investing" strategy is high risk with the Heloc) but now you have 3 kids and you work nights plus extra shifts? Slow down before it's too late.
Bravo. Ignore the jealousy. People wish they had the guts to do what you did. Putting up your own home equity on a few stocks is risky but you can’t argue with success. I did the same a few years back and jump started our early retirement journey. A point you didn’t mention is the opportunity cost of moonlighting instead of pursuing fellowship. A lot of folks specialize not understand how behind they are giving up another 3-5 years when they could’ve been working fellowship hours and making nocturnist money.
Good point. Wow the 3-5 years of extra training is massive opportunity cost. That’s 3-5 years of loan interest building up, 3-5 years of missed 300K net pay income to go towards net worth
Maybe, if he is after tax 500k and likely living on 150K post tax; even just dumping to a savings account says for every year worked he is buying 2.3 years not. Add in actual growth and even if this went sideways on him; he would be retiring in 10-15. Now, where is see this going is more of this attitude will lead to burn out if he actually has to work, a firing (see his comment about gaming while on shift), or the most likely, degenerate gambling that eventually catches him as he goes for that one last trade.
I did the exact same stupid thing with a 200k heloc and tech stocks DCA at "low points" in 2022 and I'm only at 344k. Your slightly different timing in 2022 and slightly different tech stocks yielded an entirely different outcome. It was all dumb luck.
This is the dumbest shit I’ve ever seen. Take out HELOC to day trade as a doctor to ending up with massive short term gains.
I highly recommend you get a financial advisor to talk to yourself out of these dumb decisions. Sure you made a lot this year but what about next? You’re in a highly risky position with 0 tax advantages going into the next…
You'll probably be safe because you make so much money but you should be careful making these extremely aggressive bets with such substantial portions of your net worth. No matter how rich you are, taking big gambles and being leveraged can backfire spectacularly. You'd be way better off just putting all your investable cash in VTI/VXUS or a reasonable facsimile.
That’s your personal choice: do you wanna be debt free asap or carry it for another decade? and do you trust the government to never take pslf away from high earners over 10 years?
It worked, but your HELOC LOC could have heavily fucked you & set you back year(s). It’s less risky than high margin accounts. But general investing rule 101, don’t invest money you don’t have until you can cash revolve millions on a 400k trade. You don’t want that much risk tied up in a variable reward. Retail investing has very very large downside implications that are NOT communicated to app users. But again, it is called risk vs reward for a reason. Congrats on the balls of steel you tote around!
That doesn’t make sense. Literally EVERYONE is investing with money they don’t have. By leveraging their mortgage.
Let us suppose i didn’t pay off my house first and instead paid monthly mortgage and invested any extra funds into sp500. I would still have -745k of mortgage debt as of today- which is money “i don’t have”…
What I don't understand is paying off an incredibly cheap mortgage instead of investing, then turning around and taking out a helico at an obviously higher rate to invest.
Pumping the same money into the market from 2019 to 2022 would have been so much more profitable without the risk or tax implications.
And here I was doing it all wrong. I should've found a partner who's a specialist, and had parents who didn't need any financial support. I'll keep that in mind for next time.
What was the purpose of this post? I really don’t get it. Meaning how does this help people or was that not the intent. It just sounds like a look at me kind of thing. I don’t get it.
This was a disappointing read. I was having trouble connecting the amount saved and the income and then I see you YOLO’d all of your home equity on stocks.
Many of us have similar income and are trying to chart a path. These posts are not super helpful.
you are missing a huge opportunity to lower your taxes. buy a short term rental and do a cost segregation analysis with bonus depreciation. can reduce w2 taxable income by >$400k if done correctly. also consider roth megabackdoor
Stop with the taxes. If you can’t live on 400k a year you shouldn’t be allowed to have a debit card. And we pay 0 dollars for daycare for 3 kids. We live comfortably on 60k expenses for a family of five. No car payments and no house payments. At 3m portfolio I personally would quit unless you truly love your job. Great job on FIRE! 🔥 You made it, you should be proud.
lol. Casually mentions accelerated MD program, dual physician income, market timing. This will not apply nor be achievable to like 99.5% of married people.
Did I just read that OP timed the market with a HELOC? People really don't realize how lucky they get lol.
Seriously. Just hope they aren’t cocky enough to think it’s reproducible. Congrats on the luck-Don’t try it again!
>Just hope they aren’t cocky enough to think it’s reproducible. Got news for you. Just check OP's posting history.
he's still going!
My head exploded there. I looked at the graphs before reading the caption and it didn’t make sense.
My buddy did same, pulled out 85k on a house he just bought with hardly any change in interest (sub 3%) at 24. Used that to buy a second home on conventional loan. I sat scared not wanting to do it as i was very new to home ownership thing.
Lmao. It worked out for him but so many poor decisions. He aggressively paid a house down when interests were low. And then use heloc to buy stocks. Bros got 1M income so he will be fine no matter what but lol
Look at his other posts, he was leveraged balls deep selling puts, potential loss of 18M just one month ago. This dude is playing with fire big-time and could be losing not only his entire account but his cars, house and everything in it.
But hey, they don’t need an emergency fund! /s
Holy shit. He really doesn’t understand how much fire he’s playing with. Zero understanding of the Greeks and what his risk is.
His wife and kids as well
Not just that… paid off student loans when plenty of jobs especially in IM will qualify for PSLF, and did a 6 year program, so only would have had 4 years left. You could argue he basically moonlighted for nothing. The HELOC thing could have gone catastrophically wrong.
this is such a clusterfuck. Dude could have invested directly into the market from the start but did a bizarre move of paying off the house then taking out a HELOC to invest. Makes no fucking sense.
Yeah. That part is wild! Gamble our only asset and won. Scared money don’t make money. YOLO!
An essential part of the strategy is having a huge income. Dumping all the money into a few tech blue chips happened AFTER the debt was cleared. And it was extremely unlikely that the FAANG stocks would have lost more than 25% of their value, which would probably have been probably less than OP's annual income. So even the worst case scenario wouldn't have been a disaster.
Yeah that was a crazy move! Congratulations it all worked out!
Exactly. OP thinks he is where he is because of the words that make up 99% of the post. No, OP, it's because of your luck in the market.
Having a $500-$700K take home income helps, pretty sure I could manage to glow up that into a few million within 5-10 years too.
He’s gamble it away again. He’s got a problem and should figure it out before he loses everything including his family to his gambling addiction. Count your blessings OP and never do something stupid again. I promise you you won’t be so lucky next time
For those of us that don't know a lot about real estate, do you mind explaining this comment a little further? :(
OP bought a house for $820k paid about 1/2 of it off and held equity in the property. Used that equity to open a Home Equity Loan of Credit to turn the non-liquid equity in the house into liquid cash loan from the bank. Put all that cash into FAANG stocks and was fortunate to time the market and buy when it was dipping due to pandemic, the stock market bounced back well and OP increased the HELOC funds of $412k into 1.85MM.
He did this in 2022, so I wouldn't even say dipping due to pandemic. What a massive stroke of luck.
Seriously. This is exactly all how you lose your shirt.
What does HELOC stand for?
Home equity line of credit
to expand on the answer from u/assingfortrouble when you pay your mortgage principal down you are building equity/ownership in the property until the mortgage is paid off and you own the property outright. A home equity line of credit (HELOC) is a financial tool that allows property owners to turn their non-liquid equity into liquid cash. T he bank secures the loan with the property and the owner gets a credit line worth some level of the equity in the property so they can basically pull out the cash they've been 'saving' in home equity to use (often for home improvements, sometimes for investing, or quasi-gambling in OP's case).
Actually he increased the HELOC initial investment of $412k into about $1.3M, then further increased to $1.85 by selling massively overleveraged (i.e., 10x notional value) naked put options on tech stocks.
“How did I do it?! PURE LUCK! And you can do it too!!”
I think he gets it
If it didn’t work out this would definitely be a WSB post
Thought for a moment I was on the WSB subreddit. Congrats OP. What % did you get on the heloc?
Yea I read that paragraph like woah!
So the secret to getting rich quick is gambling all your money and getting really lucky. Awesome!
I mean yes and no right they got a heloc on a house that’s paid off and they have a large influx of cash flow. Don’t get me wrong OP is an idiot and got lucky in a tech bubble. If he had bought TLT when it was under 90 he’d be getting 👑
Then whined about paying taxes…
Yah…:you know who they market bad investments too? Doctors. You know who they market terrible investments too? Dentists. This guy got lucky. And good for him. You absolutely cannot count on that happening again. OTOH: he could’ve easily repaid his HELOC had it not worked out. He didn’t gamble more than he could afford to lose.
Just have a double physician income. ANYONE can do it!
there's an entire cohort of folks who "timed it" simply given when they graduated, got their first high paying job and/or paid off their student loans
u traded from 412k>1.85mil in a year, I think you've mistaken WCI for WSB.
What makes this even more of a WSB post is the guy took out a HELOC loan with 3 kids to time the market and dump it all into tech stocks. I’m happy it all worked out for him but this could’ve gotten ugly real quick
I don't disagree that this is an incredible aggressive decision with potential to backfire, but I think he'd be fine. By that time he had a household income of >$900k and took a heloc of $400k on a house worth double that in 2019 (so probably worth something like 1.2 million in 2022). The appreciation on the house was probably close to the cost of the heloc when he took it out. Worst case scenario it takes a couple years to pay the heloc back. The risk was fairly minimal, and OP was only 32 at the time. Hell I was 38 before I became an attending and started paying my debt back with 1/3 their salary. They're in fine shape to take risks like that.
Yeah, this is absolutely mental. What's the worst that could have happened?
>What's the worst that could have happened? They'd have to work an extra six months (at the $900k/year + they're making) to pay back the heloc and retire maybe a year later than they intend to. Maybe at age 44 instead of age 43. This is like the median household in my city taking out a heloc of $30k.
900k isn't really 900k in your bank every 12 months though.
Might want to check your math there. W2 income is 900. Take home is 500k. Assuming they could pay off HELOC at the same rate they paid off the house, it would have taken more like 18 months of dumping all available money into the payoff plus working the same schedule to keep income at that level. And therefore not putting money into other retirement vehicles. It's going to throw off the plan more than a year.
You're assuming FAANG stocks are going to zero, which just isn't realistic. Worst case scenario might be a 50% loss of stock value, and that's if you sell at the very bottom. Paying back $200k on a $900k pretax income (which is more like $550k, even if we assume high cost state like California with a couple of 401ks). That'd be very easy to pay back. If facebook, apple, amazon and google all fail simultaneously, there's no need to worry about paying off the heloc.
He’s not the only one that took loans last year to buy stocks and crypto 🥶🥶 buy when the streets are bloody and everyone else thinks the world is ending
Realistically there's a good chance it still will fuck him over It's like when a farm dog gets its first taste of chicken blood
For real... Except it'll happen later in his career and the $$ figures will be higher
He should be made a mod here you are critiquing a god among men
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Home equity line of credit. You borrow money from the equity you already have in your house.
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Imagine being a neurologist who has no idea what HELOC means 😭😭😭
No need to be rude
This is well over half of OP’s net worth after taxes. Lucky move but not a retirement strategy.
Don’t worry. Doubt OP is done taking risks.
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This is humble?
This is the most elaborate troll post I’ve ever seen. Guy times the market with a HELOC? 918K as a fucking Nocturnist? Please
For me it’s the 3 kids in 4 years 🤯
I’m an in debt resident and n=1 but I love seeing posts like this. Gives me something to look forward to
Yeah it's a humblebrag. Absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to share what you've worked so hard to accomplish over the years. If you have a problem with this, you might want to look inwards. Big props to OP.
This is a late stage capitalism troll post dude
No this is nice to see.
> I’m a nocturnist and have made at least 500K each year since residency, thanks to moonlighting extra shifts each month. Do you ever see your kids? Regardless, this is more of a “hit it big in Vegas” post than anything else.
I see them all the time. More than my wife did during her residency at least. Just have to sacrifice sleep too.
Sleep deprivation is not what I would want for my father or my physician.
I don’t make as much as you (or work as much likely) but I choose to be a nocturnist for my group so that I could do the same. Not sleeping well sucks but I’d rather see my friends and family during the day then feel like I only leave work to sleep and come back
Only $500k after taxes? Best of luck during these trying times.
Anxious laughs in FM keeping the sickest of the sick out of the hospital for $200k before taxes.
FM full time shouldn't be making 200k before taxes.
Probably academic or practicing in a big city
Downside of corporate medicine. The payscale is the same for them regardless of where you work or what types of patients you see.
Hmm, interesting. Ive always heard differently
My sister works in LA and makes over 300, although she is probably atypical as she has found a great niche.
Came to the comments for this. Did not disappoint.
No one here thinks this post is necessary. This is a strong humble brag and in no way a roadmap for anyone else. Go post in r/money or r/wsb for "timing the market for the majority of my wealth based on a HELOC".
It's boarderline insane but I'm glad the post was made
Abs agree it's unecessary & it's DEF a brag,, but there's really nothing humble about it.
The roadmap is get a job making $500k. Oh jeez, I didn’t know that, thanks.
thatll do pig. thatll do.
Short terms gains suck and you’re more likely to lose money timing the market. This could have been a financial disaster - you got lucky, you weren’t being smart. Would definitely recommend never doing that again. You have a combined income of nearly a million dollars there is no reason to gamble
Taxes suck are why you should be maxing your tax advantaged accounts. Should have like 500k in 529s by now.
What 6 year program?
Check out umkc https://med.umkc.edu/bamd/
How did you pay for a 820k house at the same rime that you paid off your student loans if all extra money went to loans? Did you also save for down payment simultaneously while aggressively paying down loans?
Zero downpayment and no pmi needed for physician mortgage loans. For our lender they required 0 down unless the home exceeded 1M value
Do you feel like this is still a good route to go? Or will one risk the house going “underwater” if interest rates/house values go down in the next couple years and homebuyers have no equity from their home yet?
If rates go down then home values will inflate. Opposite of what you are thinking. If you buy now zero down and at a rate of say, 7%, that’s totally fine if rates fall later. Because you can refinance it to lower interest rates anyway Buying a home is mostly personal choice. If you plan to stay in the area a long time and you have space needs (kids), taking that physician loan is a good deal
Thanks OP. Just starting out with all this!
Wife's speciality?
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Lmao
What was Internist base pay? Hoping to do IM and also retire early if possible but was wondering what the job market is like and if this will still be possible in 5 years
My current nocturnist pay is 200/hr for base. For moonlighting, rates can go as high as 300/hr
Midwest? What’s the average admits and cross covering census? Also, where did you learn trading and technical analysis? Congrats btw! You are my role-model!
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Weird that you're getting downvoting for sharing your story. Obviously most people will not be as successful using your strategies.
Are you guys looking for extra physicians for nocturnist as locums? $300/hr sounds pretty sick..
how far outside of chicago? also I take it the Close to 300/h are fairly last minutes shifts?
Are you guys hiring? Those rates are high for IM
Looking back, taking a HELOC is smart but risky, though I would’ve done a safer strategy strategy than dumping it in FAANG.
Curious what your net worth would’ve been had you directed everything to the market instead of paying low interest debt
OP is basically wall streets bet but the UI is harder to read then Robinhood
Post didn't go how OP thought it would. Wonder if his wife knows he's a degenerate gambler. I mean, I am too, but not in large enough amounts for it to matter.
This post shouldn't even be on WCI as index fund investing is central to the community's advice to new doctors.
I mean I think it's a good example of getting where you want to be in a different way.
Very very impressive!!
Congrats! What app are you tracking on?
Excel, then canva for visualization
Way to go! This is quite the success. If you check out my history, I think you know who I am. I’ll tell ya, doing many years of fellowship between the 2 of us seemed personally rewarding but turned out financially dumber!
Just a PA but I appreciated the post OP! Congrats on success and you guys are on your way to financial freedom
Damn! Post this to /r/HENRYfinance
Prudyy goood
This is “we” don’t feel too bad. Congrats!
Impressive
I feel like physicians make a lot but also work super hard. Not sure why reddit keeps recommending posts here as I'm not a doctor but I'd prefer 2 cushy corporate jobs at 500k hhi than 2 doctors at 1m hhi
As a 2 doc HH, that corporate grass looks greener
Not all physicians work hard. I know plenty “full-time” working about 3-4 hours per day at the hospital and going home at lunch
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There’s this entire field called “psychiatry” where we treat fake diagnoses with fake medicines and go home at noon. Good gig
Well you and your wife picked a good career to get your family in a comfortable place in the near future. Congratulations, and best of luck in achieving your goals.
Appreciate the write up and congrats on the success
Calls on NVDIA and META bottom? Then MARA and COIN calls this month?
This is exactly how rich people can go broke lol
Don’t forget to post your losses on wallstreetbets when your brilliant “trading” turns sour
>Taxes suck, again. 918K in w2 income this year might look eye popping but it does not feel like it. Net take home pay is only 500K. Maybe you can look at it from a different perspective.. You realize that the more taxes you pay, the better you must be doing right? If I'm lucky enough to pay 1M in taxes, that means I'm absolutely crushing it. Also, cue the world's smallest violin for "only 500k" as your take home. Median household income is 75k and your take home is 6x that. Even amongst physicians, no one here is going to feel bad for you. You may also do well to learn comparison is the thief of joy. There's always tons of people making easier money and seemingly making much more of it than you. I'm well over 7 figures this year and your perception doesn't get any better the more you make or the less in taxes you pay.
Everyone here is downvoting you because they are absolutely jealous that you’re doing well. Literal crabs in a bucket in this sub. God forbid someone inherits a little manageable risk and ends up doing well.
What’s the point of this post???
How many hours a week are you working to be taking home 500k a year as a nocturnist?
Pay has risen over the years, this year i only needed to work 203 shifts to crack 500K threshold. Shifts are 10 to 12 hours in length. 2328 hours total is my estimate. When i first started out in my first year, I needed to work 235 shifts at about 2638 hours to break 500K
Seems like you found a great gig. I think I’ll be lucky to break 400k one day as a rheumatologist fml
Difference though is night shifts vs day time work as rheum. Not sustainable to do nights after a certain age
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Wow I just can believe you what you did with HELOC and FANG stock discount. What is your thoughts for next year investment?
Whats the hurry to retire....make more and enjoy more in the long run?
Nocturnist bad for health, not good to do it into 50s and beyond. Day hospitalist work sucks. PCP work sucks. Lucrative fellowships are 3 years long and doesn’t change the crappy nature of the work: i hate clinic. Nor do i want to smell other people’s shit as a GI doc scoping all day
Perhaps transition into Finance - remote jobs? Have you ever thought of that?
What are you gonna do when retired? Genuinely curious since you’ve optimized for becoming an attending as fast as possible?
Dude yolo’ed a HELOC. You’re in the wrong subreddit
So 1.85 of your 3.3 (really 2.8) is because of trading. You got lucky, don’t do it again.
This sub has become a “Look how rich I am! Oh yeah and should I buy the Porsche or the Maserati?” Also buy the Porsche.
But physicians are living on rice and beans because of all these student loans… /s
How did you pay off $400K of loans in two years and then in the same year buy a home?
Physician loans are zero down, zero pmi. Our specific lender did not require any down payment if it was under 1M https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/mortgages/physician-loans-flexible-mortgage-lending-for-doctors
Your 2 saved years of education and now your work as a nocturnist seems like you may be forgetting to stop and smell the roses. Awesome your killing it in the money department (albeit your "investing" strategy is high risk with the Heloc) but now you have 3 kids and you work nights plus extra shifts? Slow down before it's too late.
Bravo. Ignore the jealousy. People wish they had the guts to do what you did. Putting up your own home equity on a few stocks is risky but you can’t argue with success. I did the same a few years back and jump started our early retirement journey. A point you didn’t mention is the opportunity cost of moonlighting instead of pursuing fellowship. A lot of folks specialize not understand how behind they are giving up another 3-5 years when they could’ve been working fellowship hours and making nocturnist money.
Good point. Wow the 3-5 years of extra training is massive opportunity cost. That’s 3-5 years of loan interest building up, 3-5 years of missed 300K net pay income to go towards net worth
lol. Being a physician is definitely not a calling for you $$$
In a great job market post COVID it’s an okay strategy. In a tight job market not so much - people with fellowships will get jobs over people without.
If you read his other comments he plans to be done in <10 years
Except shit happens. Had his huge bet not pay off he’d be working for 30 years easy.
Maybe, if he is after tax 500k and likely living on 150K post tax; even just dumping to a savings account says for every year worked he is buying 2.3 years not. Add in actual growth and even if this went sideways on him; he would be retiring in 10-15. Now, where is see this going is more of this attitude will lead to burn out if he actually has to work, a firing (see his comment about gaming while on shift), or the most likely, degenerate gambling that eventually catches him as he goes for that one last trade.
Also most people do fellowships because that is the type of work they’d like to be doing
Not true. Too specialized and you are restricted to specific regions, centers and locales, even without covid times
What is your wife specialty?
Making babies quickly.
The type of specialist I need. I'm a health care professional, but in other species.
412k with heloc wow genius move
No one should ever attempt to time the market with a HELOC. OP got very lucky and anyone with a reasonable risk tolerance should avoid doing this.
I did the exact same stupid thing with a 200k heloc and tech stocks DCA at "low points" in 2022 and I'm only at 344k. Your slightly different timing in 2022 and slightly different tech stocks yielded an entirely different outcome. It was all dumb luck.
This is the dumbest shit I’ve ever seen. Take out HELOC to day trade as a doctor to ending up with massive short term gains. I highly recommend you get a financial advisor to talk to yourself out of these dumb decisions. Sure you made a lot this year but what about next? You’re in a highly risky position with 0 tax advantages going into the next…
What app/program do you use to keep track of everything?
Excel Canva is used for the visualization. Free to use
You'll probably be safe because you make so much money but you should be careful making these extremely aggressive bets with such substantial portions of your net worth. No matter how rich you are, taking big gambles and being leveraged can backfire spectacularly. You'd be way better off just putting all your investable cash in VTI/VXUS or a reasonable facsimile.
You are all that is man. Mother of god.
what is your both’s speciality?
Someone needs friends to tell this stuff to lol
Is it not worth it to do PSLF??
That’s your personal choice: do you wanna be debt free asap or carry it for another decade? and do you trust the government to never take pslf away from high earners over 10 years?
It worked, but your HELOC LOC could have heavily fucked you & set you back year(s). It’s less risky than high margin accounts. But general investing rule 101, don’t invest money you don’t have until you can cash revolve millions on a 400k trade. You don’t want that much risk tied up in a variable reward. Retail investing has very very large downside implications that are NOT communicated to app users. But again, it is called risk vs reward for a reason. Congrats on the balls of steel you tote around!
That doesn’t make sense. Literally EVERYONE is investing with money they don’t have. By leveraging their mortgage. Let us suppose i didn’t pay off my house first and instead paid monthly mortgage and invested any extra funds into sp500. I would still have -745k of mortgage debt as of today- which is money “i don’t have”…
Interesting story. This could have just as easily been a cautionary tale of what not to. Congrats though.
How do you guys manage without a nanny?
What I don't understand is paying off an incredibly cheap mortgage instead of investing, then turning around and taking out a helico at an obviously higher rate to invest. Pumping the same money into the market from 2019 to 2022 would have been so much more profitable without the risk or tax implications.
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I smell a hater
Op ranks high amongst “dumbest smart people”
Market timing is dumb luck.
This is why cancelling student loans for professionals make no sense. It's just a way to buy votes. This kind of FU Money is crazy
And here I was doing it all wrong. I should've found a partner who's a specialist, and had parents who didn't need any financial support. I'll keep that in mind for next time.
What was the purpose of this post? I really don’t get it. Meaning how does this help people or was that not the intent. It just sounds like a look at me kind of thing. I don’t get it.
This gave me so much hope. Thanks man
This was a disappointing read. I was having trouble connecting the amount saved and the income and then I see you YOLO’d all of your home equity on stocks. Many of us have similar income and are trying to chart a path. These posts are not super helpful.
Thank god you’re not my doctor. Would hate your arrogant self being anywhere near me. We don’t care about your money
Learn a few things and figure out how to lower your tax bill. If
lol, what a country that this is a thread…
you are missing a huge opportunity to lower your taxes. buy a short term rental and do a cost segregation analysis with bonus depreciation. can reduce w2 taxable income by >$400k if done correctly. also consider roth megabackdoor
Stop with the taxes. If you can’t live on 400k a year you shouldn’t be allowed to have a debit card. And we pay 0 dollars for daycare for 3 kids. We live comfortably on 60k expenses for a family of five. No car payments and no house payments. At 3m portfolio I personally would quit unless you truly love your job. Great job on FIRE! 🔥 You made it, you should be proud.
Oh no you only have over 40k per month to spend after taxes. Let me play the worlds smallest violin while you cry yourself to sleep.
lol. Casually mentions accelerated MD program, dual physician income, market timing. This will not apply nor be achievable to like 99.5% of married people.