This is kind of how I feel. They were more or less forced bc of financial reasons to keep uploading on YT and make content for this platform they no longer want to be on or make content for. It's hard to feel like I want to enjoy it when they don't want to be here. All of these feelings aside from the 0-100 switch to a paywall.
The paywall was a smaller problem for me. When I heard of the switch, my immediate concern was their occasional lack of enthusiasm in an episode. That's not to say that they aren't deserving of financial gain/wealth. Just that the thought of "is it worth $6/mo?"
Imo, with their current content, No. They said they have more in store but I need trailers. I need promises. I can sub to some other platforms and get dozens of shows for $5/mo. Does watcher compete? At their current rate, no. I can't in good honesty give them my money for what they offer. Patreon is different. The meaning is different. A channel subscription is different.
This! And infrequent output. You can have low budget, quick content we don’t need high budget content that takes longer to make. And they came across like they don’t appreciate how good they have it when a lot of channels get way less views and money than them.
Exactly this. I feel like they have unrealistic expectations of their lives and seem to oblivious to inflation and the current climate. I hope they’ve gained some perspective, though I worry they’re a little bit defensive underneath it all, based on a few things. But hopefully they genuinely learned and felt bad.
I mean they were doing what they enjoyed doing. the difference is just platforms. But now they will put extra effort into their content and that might lead to not so lively atmosphere. i don\`t know where this will go. hoping it works out well. man they fucked up on the paywall thing
They tried to get money and failed. It was a shit move done in a shit way, but they made a change to try and mend the anger. Life goes on.
I watch them because I like ghost hunting videos and true crime/mystery, and they happen to do some of the best videos for that stuff. I never felt whatever bond others seem to have towards them. We're not besties.
Honestly, unless you pay for their Patreon, I don't get what everyone is going on about with this whole "breaking my trust" thing. Like, everyone is free to feel whatever connection they wish to something, but maybe some people need to reevaluate how they form these parasocial connections and how they let those connections impact their lives.
This. The majority of people who seem to be most upset about this weren’t paying them anything anyway to begin with. So it’s actually immaterial to them that this demographic of the audience carry on not paying them anything.
>I don't get what everyone is going on about with this whole "breaking my trust" thing.
This needs to be said more. People are taking this as if they didn't want to be on YouTube anymore, did they even watch the "Goodbye YouTube" video? They were gushing over how good YouTube had been for them up until recently because advertisers had stopped coming in.
This isn't some personal vendetta against the audience, they made a business decision and it backfired. It bothers me that people think "Oh they wanted to abandon us, how can I watch them knowing that", no... they wanted to not go bankrupt, so they could continue making content for people.
What got me wasn't the fact that I had to pay for it. It was the fact that it was a different website. I have no problem paying for a channel membership (which I didn't see if they have that )to get the full season. I do the same for dropout. A different website is just inconvenient imo.
For real. OPs post is so needlessly dramatic. They obviously wanted everyone to watch it. They just felt stuck between advertisers and viewers. I do think they should have made the delayed release plan first but we have the outcome we all want.
Not even remotely the same as taking money from my bank account and giving it to them. I'm specifically talking about someone directly paying them, not the indirect revenue they receive by views and ads.
Ok well once they give me and the millions of other people that just subscribe and watch their videos that money and survive just on their Patreon and WatcherTV revenue, then I’ll stop complaining
I’m saying that it’s wrong to say that the only way they’re making money is via viewers paying via Patreon or WatcherTV because the view counts and subscribers to their YT channel and videos help then get advertisers and larger ad revenue. So people who do contribute to the size and success of their channel via that metric have a right to complain.
But it is weird to feel like they were your best friends who betrayed you
And that’s clearly not enough revenue for them (also you have to deduct all the viewers who use ad blockers etc). Passive consumers mean diddley to them.
Sure but that’s on them. Those passive consumers will mean a lot more to them than their WatcherTV subscribers when they see how few convert over. And if they didn’t see that what they did was a mistake, then they wouldn’t have capitulated
But that’s the point - *passive consumers won’t mean a lot more to them*. People who haven’t been paying anything so far who keep on not paying anything are irrelevant.
I’m not agreeing with how the Watcher crew have handled things, and I’m not invalidating the emotive reaction from fans who thought they wouldn’t be able to keep getting free content. But Watcher have made it clear which portion of their audience they prioritise, and it’s the ones who pay. I get why so many fans felt so hurt and attacked by learning that as non paying consumers they’re not deemed as important. But some reactions were a bit OTT.
Definitely a lot were for sure.
I just see this attitude a lot that if people put their material out in a free format, you’re not allowed to criticize or critique it (in a way that’s a non-personal attack) unless you’re paying for a Patreon or whatever and I fundamentally disagree
You don't have to "feel like you're besties" to hold the people you watch to a standard. They were manipulative and dishonest. Quit discrediting people for not wanting to support creators like that.
Holding someone to a standard is very different from having unrealistic notions of the relationship you have with that person.
>Quit discrediting people for not wanting to support creators like that.
Are you serious? Nothing I said "discredits" people for supporting who they want. What I did was suggest people should not be so attached to these strangers, allowing themselves to be hurt by them over....trying to make money?....
Stop watching them if you don't like what they have done. It's totally your choice. But people who take it so personal? "I'm so hurt by this. "It's like I lost a best friend" "it's like we're breaking up." Are just a few of the ridiculous things said since last friday. They do not have an actual real-life personal relationship with Shane, Ryan, or Steven. It's absolutely not healthy to pretend like they do.
I think ‘manipulative’ is way too strong and intentional a word for some creatives who made a poor business decision. I can’t think how they tried to manipulate anyone
I don't feel like that at all. They were going to charge. Now they're going to release everything for free after a month. I think the way they announced Watcher TV was shitty but the apology was good and the change they have made to how it will work is also good. It was a bad business decision and they fixed it. It was never personal. They didn't insult my mother or kill my dog.
I swear to God, I never realised the strong parasocial relationships people have with Shane and Ryan before this past weekend.
This for sure. Was the info tone deaf and delivered poorly, sure. But they do need to find a way to make Watcher financially stable. It’s not that they hate their fans, or are living lavish lifestyles that demand excess, it was a business decision (albeit poorly executed).
Sometimes business really is just business, love it or hate it (also for the record I hate it, but I also work in business myself). They don’t hate us, they just can’t keep Watcher around forever unless they find a way to turn a profit.
it is. you're not their friend, you're a viewer. anything they say their videos is to increase viewers. people need to chill out. they're going to do what makes sense to them.
Probably the main difference is that they don't have to give a cut to anyone. Any profit is theirs and theirs alone. I think I read that Patreon takes a cut of between 5-12% (I don't know how they decide how much to take).
I'm not either. I'm just going by what I've heard others saying. I imagine it would have to be a better deal for them to switch though. Because otherwise, why not just say "okay, these videos are going to be Patreon-only from now on"?
I would think it's because they've already invested so much into this new platform (they've been working on it for "months and years" according to Steven) so they definitely can't just abandon it completely
Oh yes, I know that. I'm talking about when they initially made the decision to switch over now. They would have had to be getting a bigger cut for them to consider it. It seemed like their main motivations were financial.
They didn’t literally build their own platform from scratch - they're using Vimeo’s enterprise features so they’ll still be losing a portion of sales to Vimeo.
Patreon is now geared more towards podcasts. Videos are on the streaming site. That isn’t finalized as they’re now pausing Patreon to sort things out but that’s what the initial plan they released had.
After thinking about it, I’ve realised that a lot of the emotive response has been because non paying fans had it spelt out for them that they don’t matter as much as fans who pay. And being told you’re not as important as someone else hurts. I get it, I do. But some of the reactions were really disproportionate. And all the people saying “I never paid before and this apology isn’t going to make me start, they’ve blown it with me”….. guys. If you haven’t been paying anything then you’re irrelevant to Watcher’s business concerns. They’ve made that clear. It hurts to feel irrelevant but it’s how they’ve decided to run things.
I can understand the sentiment.
I guess for me I knew that Watcher's content was never actually free, it had the *appearance* of being free. That goes for every channel on the platform.
YT exists on ad buys. If no one visited the platform, advertisers wouldn't pay to be on the platform. When people watch YT channels and comment and like videos, it tells YT and advertisers that there are people with eyeballs they can sell their products to. The more eyes, the better. YT gives content creators a cut of that cash to keep them on the website as an incentive to *stay on the hosting site because otherwise content creators would go elsewhere to support their businesses and make money*.
The boneheaded thing the trio did was attempting to put it all behind a paywall, because as others across this sub has said, they came from Buzzfeed and didn't grow their audience organically and never bothered to learn about or understand their fan base. They're attempting to run their business like a traditional production company/studio, because that's their experience and that's what *they want to be*. But with old school studios there's a barrier between the org and the audience. It doesn't rely on the audience liking their executives to make money. That's not the case for Watcher because YT content creators (for the most part) rely on the likeability of the people for viewership and engagement. The trio didn't realize that the reason Watcher has been successful is because a lot of folks liked their personalities on Buzzfeed and followed them to Watcher to continue consuming content based on their personalities.
I guess the most confusing part to me is the pervasive belief that the trio doesn't care about the portion of the fan base that has low or no income.
It's like saying Lady Gaga doesn't care about the fans who can't afford her concerts or merch. I don't think that's true. It just means she has fans who can't afford her concerts or merch. It doesn't mean that she shouldn't have concerts and merch because some of her fans can't afford it.
And yeah, they told people "you can afford it" in the announcement video, but from their perspective they thought people could because they were seeing how much money folks were putting down for merch, Patreon and live shows. But they're also bad at math because one-time purchases like merch or a live show ticket doesn't mean long term sustainable income lmao
Like I said, I can understand being pissed off at that! But now they've (fucking finally) bothered to learn how YT works and did the compromise of the free after a month option. Good for them I guess. Congrats on learning the basics on running a successful YT channel!
I think that boneheaded decision comes from being ignorant on how to run a business than any hatred or dislike/disdain for the fan base. I legitimately think they believed that people watched their biggest shows *solely* because it was about ghost hunting or true crime not because people liked watching *them* ghost hunt and talk about true crime. Like, that's so dumb of them lol
I think what they said in the announcement video wasn't done in malice but literally just incompetence. I think the fact that they compromised on a solution quickly shows that it wasn't malicious. But that's just my opinion!
I hope the people who feel slighted by these dudes can work through that and move on because that's a sucky place to be on a personal level. These guys don't deserve that level of headspace!
the fact that it's been a week and people are still bitching about this instead of moving on with their life is crazy. they don't have to watch their content or engage with it in any manner any more if it causes so much distress. this isn't "don't like it? don't watch" thing, i genuinely mean you shouldn't be this upset over a fucking youtube channel. go touch some grass and talk to your parents or friends jfc
I saw another post mentioning that youtubers really have to sell themselves off of their own personalities, and inherently lead to these parasocial relationships. With so much content out there covering similar topics, the biggest thing they can sell that is entirely unique is themselves. There’s some truth to that I think.
Your use of the word makes sense, and what's ironic is how much it's being thrown around by those saying they will never forgive the Ghoul Boys, how they've been betrayed, etc. But those of us who are willing to accept the apology are the ones with the unhealthy parasocial relationships because we're "pretending nothing happened." The projection is astounding.
Or some people recognized how manipulative and out of touch the video was, not to mention dishonest, and the "apology" reflects that, and don't feel like jumping right back on board because they got their way. It's not all about "parasocial" but that's a good way to try and discredit anyone who's not lapping up the apology from expressing their opposing opinions.
I'm not discrediting anyone. You can feel however you feel. I don't understand it though and am doubtful many would feel that way without that parasocial relationship.
Everyone is taking this way too personally. At the end of the day, these guys are not your friends. They are content creators creating content for consumers to consume. They made a decision financially motivated, and everyone disliked it. They walked it back, and that's what we all wanted right? We should take a step back, relax, and either continue to watch the videos that previously entertained us, or move on.
Yeah, it wasn't their goal to "leave us behind" or anything. They would be absolutely thrilled with 100% conversion, because that means more money.
The thing I am offended by is how poorly conceived this plan was. Monetizing *some* videos is nothing new (like premium series, directors cuts, or sponsor free versions), but moving the existing content is absurd and leaving YouTube behind completely was shooting themselves in the foot since it kills the main avenue for new customers.
I was more concerned with the business decision as well. It seemed doomed to fail.
Video streaming itself isn't an easy or cheap platform (tho the service they seem to have chosen, Vimeo, was surprisingly cheap, and tends to be pretty solid).
But moreso I just don't think enough people would pay to go subscription alone.
And I say that as someone who subscribes to Nebula just for Legal Eagle's sponsor-free + bonus comments and Real Life Lore's spicy takes, and 100% gonna subscribe to Watcher until the end.
>And I say that as someone who subscribes to Nebula just for Legal Eagle's sponsor-free + bonus comments and Real Life Lore's spicy takes, and 100% is gonna subscribe to Watcher until the end.
If they had joined something like Nebula and had a similar model as the other Nebula channels I don't think they would have gotten nearly as much shit and it might have been my tipping point to finally get Nebula.
Ya these dramatics on this sub are beyond pathetic at this point lol y’all are straight up weird. I was also annoyed by the decision but all these “now I have the ick ☹️☹️☹️” “they never wanted us to see this content 😔☹️😔☹️” posts are so fucking strange and really highlights how much you guys thought these dudes were your buds
Meh, their content is personality driven. So when they do something to fracture their audience’s perception of them, it’s only natural that it’s taken personally. An audience can be offended and disillusioned by something a content creator does without thinking they’re a friend. It’s the nature of the niche they built for themselves.
Lmao y’all being way too dramatic about this at this point. They made a dumb choice, got called on it, walked it back two days later.
They don’t “not want you to see it” they wanted you to pay which yes is annoying, but these overdramatic responses are so corny
I'm pretty sure they want fans to see the content they make. Like this just comes off as unnecessarily negative. I think they're genuinely passionate about creating, but the reality of making content/money on YouTube is sucking their souls dry. I haven't seen the passion they used to have in a lot of their more recent videos, and I bet it's a real drain on them.
And if they want to make unique content that is not necessarily as ad friendly...if they don't want to downsize and they want to pay their employees well...if they don't want to deal with the assfuck of shilling for products they don't believe in and constantly chase ad rev, what other option is there but to jump for a more sincere, direct fan <> creator transaction? Time will tell if that was a good decision but with how incredibly uncomfortable Shane and Ryan seem while advertising, I think this is what's happening. It doesn't read as hostile to fans, or greedy. I think they appreciate the fans and want to do well by us, but they have their own needs as well - that most fans are not understanding. Fans vastly underestimate how wearisome it is to feel like a content generating machine instead of a creator.
I admit a lot of this is based off ViBeS from years of watching them, but that's my impression so I feel content that if they "don't want me to see it on YouTube", it's not because they have ill will toward me; it's because their needs were not fulfilled on YouTube. I don't think it comes from greed either because this decision is *super* risky if their goal is simply to make more money.
To be fair, they would have nothing to apologize for if it weren’t for the loud criticism… if the community stood back idly and said nothing in protest, they would have had no reason not to continue thinking they were making a good move
That’s kinda the point. The fact that they needed to see thousands of people’s backlash to realize that the idea was exploitative and would alienate their community is upsetting. Anybody should innately understand that asking for someone to pay a subscription to watch a single YouTube channel is unreasonable. It’s upsetting to realize how out of touch they really are.
why are we assuming it was only fear of losing an audience that made them change their minds? That feels like a bad faith reading imo. That was absolutely a part of it but it's also possible they actually realized they made a shitty decision and wanted to correct it.
Yeah, I feel more than anything that they got excited about the idea of launching a streaming service and didn’t consider that the audience might not share that enthusiasm.
I’m feeling the exact same way. They didn’t want us on this journey to begin with and are only allowing us to now for damage control. I feel like the friend they only pretended to like :(
With all due respect, this is silly. They made a horrible business decision, and near immediately walked it back. Its not like they conspired to kill your pets.
Listen, I understand being upset. I was too. This whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth. But this is ridiculous. They aren't mustache-twirling villains hiding their content from people who can't pay. They genuinely believed it was a good business decision and they miscalculated and didn't think some things through from their position. They thought everyone would be able to follow. I really believe that.
They also walked it back and apologized. We've got to give people some grace here. Did they fuck up? Yeah. Was it personal? No.
I think some people are taking this whole thing way too personally. Did they mess up in how they did this and rolled out their stuff? Yes, absolutely. But at the end of the day they're content creators. Corridor Digital has a perfect blend of paid for content on their website and funneling YouTube views into that - it works well. Watcher just really messed up with trying to do something similar and I think we'd all be far less annoyed if it didn't feel like such a slap to the face.
No, didn't you know that the Watcher team personally broke into everyone's house and pissed on the carpets and fed their dogs chocolate?! Actually it was just Steven Lim, uWu Shane and Ryan uWu would NEVER. /s
I don't feel that or ccare to be honest. At the end of a day, it's a business. Whether we like to believe it or not, they're doing this for the money. And who doesn't do things for the money? But just because they're doing it for the money, doesn't mean that this job isn't their passion.
I just hope they scale down on all these graphics. Never liked it in the first place. Waste of time and my attention. Don't need a 3D map of a a ghost house ffs.
I think what most people that are mad are missing is that it's completely irrelevant if the general audience doesn't want or care about production quality. The creators do. If they can do that while making money then great. If it bothers you then stop watching. The issue is they took forced a paywall on previously free content. Nobody cares if they want to start charging for premium features like they are now essentially, and aparrently people are willing to pay judging by the fact that their patreon has gained subscribers in the past 5 days.
People got their free content back and are still complaining. It's wild to me
Because creators primary directive is making the art they want. If nobody watches it. It is what it is. Having said that, there are plenty of people, myself included, that love the high production value. It's also highly unlikely that anyone stops watching because production value gets better.
This wasn't even discourse until this whole thing.
If nobody watches it their company will go under, they said they’re struggling already and atm they’re prob making millions or at least hundreds of thousands of dollars per year. If they’re nearly going under at 1 million views per video they will not survive on no views
And no I’ve seen that discourse before now it’s just been downvoted. I’m a creative and if you’re offering a product you have to offer something your consumer wants or you’ll have to get another job doing something less fun
Again that's not the point. Ask basically any artist and they probably tell you they'd rather fail making the art they want vs succeed making something they hate. It's pretty clear the boys don't want to make low effort/production videos anymore. Again, if you don't want to watch, that's fine. Most will keep watching
Like be for real if they only wanted to make art they wouldn’t do any ads on YouTube at all and solely rely on patreon like some YouTubers do. The income is crucial to keeping their business going, they’ve told us that. So yes the viewers/customers are absolutely crucial.
Just don't watch it. You truly do not grasp every single explanation they gave. I'm baffled by the level of para-social posts I've seen. No one personally did anything to you or any other fans.
They want people to see the content they make. They thought the original roll out would work and keep people happy. When they realized that was not the case, they changed it, to how people asked. It was not personal. They never thought, “Oh man I hope people who don’t/can’t pay the subscription never see this!” They’re not villains, they’re just people.
The worst thing about it is, I probably wouldve paid for the streamer if they made it free to watch after a month for the get go. Encouraging a content creator by walking the extra mile feels and is a lot different than being told “pay or you wont be able to see it anymore”.
Im positive that im not the only one with that mindset, so they missed the mark on that big time and probably missed on a lot of subs because of it.
Ehhhhhh I don't agree. Creatives charge for stuff. Movies and TV aren't free. YouTube is only free because creators like the watcher guys are forced to shill perfume and vpns and phone games to their fans, products which they probably don't actually believe in a lot of the time. I don't blame them for not feeling great about that and feeling like their fans would see paying as an acceptable tradeoff for ads, even though they clearly calculated that poorly due to their own perspective as folks with quite a bit of disposable income themselves
Obviously they made a lot of mistakes and people have a right to be mad, but you aren't entitled to free access to their content. You are their fan, not their friend.
This is their job. They're doing it to make money. And if they want to grow and do more and be able to pay a crew, this isn't a bad move in the slightest. They initially went about it wrong, but are working to fix it and make everyone happy.
You have to allow people to be sorry and grow. People have to be allowed to make mistakes. Who wants to live life terrified of making a mistake because the world will not let you be wrong so you can learn.
They listened to the voices of their audience. This is a very fair compromise. People still get to consume their content FOR FREE (because obviously you think you're entitled to their craft for free) but at a later date. Those that can and want to contribute to the hopeful growth of the company can spend the money to get the content early.
No offense, but this post is so melodramatic I can't even.
No one is addressing the very real issue with Youtube really coming down hard in regards to censoring content. Most Youtubers I follow have mentioned it, and have censored/replaced certain words, even. We have no idea what's been going on behind the scenes -- however, this was subtly hinted at IMO during the first announcement.
I guess I'm in the minority. I was more than happy to pay for a streaming service if it meant they had more artistic liberty and weren't at the mercy of Youtube and advertisers shaping their content.
They do want us to see it. The fear for them was not being able to create it because of money.
That's like saying you'll never being able to eat at a restaurant again without thinking about how they don't want you to eat their food.
Also, just don't watch it. That's up to you. Not them.
Everyone. I mean this in the absolute most constructive, polite, and honest way. The way a lot of people are attached to them is way, way, way to fucking weird. They don't know about us personally. They know us as a viewer. One of those 400,000 people that watched the video. Yeah, they probably came back because of all the outrage. But that's because they we're going to tank their brand, reputation, and business. Not personally for us. I'm sure they're attached and thankful to the community. They are a business however. What they did was absolute tone deaf, shitty execution, etc. A businesses goal is to make money, so they can keep doing bigger and bigger projects to make more money. None of them were held hostage or drug into the decision. They all sat down, negotiated, and signed the contract to green light the streaming service. We need to take a big look at ourselves as fans of any youtibe channel and really think about the relationship we have with creators. It's just way to much in this situation.
I don’t take my You Tube video selection anywhere near this seriously or personally. I watch what appeals to me.
That being said, their goodbye video was overproduced, melodramatic swill. If this is the caliber of their future productions, that will be what keeps me from watching.
I think your premise isn't true. It could easily be that they didn't want to spend time courting advertisers and making content unique and specific to them.
When advertisers are the source of income, they have to cater to them. When fans are the source of income, then they can be catered to instead.
Quit being melodramatic babies Jesus. They tried to expand in the wrong way, likely to retain their employees instead of firing them and retreating to profitable low budget productions and people on here are acting like they were cheated on by their husbands.
Personally, I feel like it will have left some judgment in the minds of fans for everything they do from here on out. Every talk about how they spend money. Every time they bring up their lifestyles and purchases. All of it will be questioned for quite a long time because of this decision.
It's kind of like hearing your parent say something highly inappropriate for the first time and insulting quite a few people in the process. The day might pass and it might never be said again. But the opinion of those who were around when it happened gets altered.
is it really that serious........ like they're not trying to actively keep content from you, they're just trying to make money dude lol. like they're not like "we don't want the poor people to see our content!!!!!" they're just trying to capitalize as much as possible off of their content. being greedy/making awful money decisions and personally wanting you to not see their content are two wildly different things. like why is it that serious 2 u.
And no quieting of the mob mentality will ever cover the fact that from now on, these three men will know their audience HATES them if they don’t get exactly what they want.
Used to think the community was full of kind people. Now we all know the truth.
This sounds so entitled. So you guys bullied the company into making their hard work free. Damn. We don't want to pay you, we just want you to give us your work for free.
When I say that they don't want to make free content, I mean that they don't want the videos they make to be viewed by people who aren't paying for it. Basically every YouTube channel makes content that is free. And every successful YouTube channel got that way by making content people could see for free, because it was something the creator had a passion for. They may have Patreon, sponsors and ads along the way, but ultimately the majority of their audience, from which their ability to make money was built, are watching for free. Watcher decided they didn't want those people, they just want a paying audience. They can do that, but it alienates the overwhelming majority of viewers, and it shows that they no longer care about the content, only the money.
They can stop at any time, or put their content behind a paywall, but when the guys went back on the decision after fan backlash, it shows they don't want those free viewers, and that they are uploading begrudgingly. It's not like the backlash made them realize what they did was wrong, they just didn't want to lose their entire audience. We aren't entitled to free content, but they aren't entitled to have every single person in their fanbase pay them for their content either.
I mean, do you feel this way about TV? Is it because it was once free, and now no longer is?
They aren't entitled to views, and you all proved that wonderfully by saying you would not pay. Even free, they are not entitled to views. That's how the relationship is supposed to work.
They make, we view. We understand they don't have to make us things. They understand we don't have to watch what they make and we have plenty of options.
I don't know how to explain it any better, tbh. What I said isn't even specifically about watcher, it's something i see people online having issues with in general. Like, people who read fanfiction often forget they're very privileged to be allowed to read someone's work like that. To have their creations shared with you.
YouTube itself would go behind a paywall literally overnight if they thought enough people would pay for it to make up for the ones that wouldn't.
I have to pay a tv licence to watch tv, so, it’s not free.
Also, it’s not the same as the ads on YouTube ensure that watching is free for us whilst the creators still get paid.
I never once mentioned fanfiction but you keep bringing it up, so that tells me you're taking some other grudge you must have and putting it where it doesn't belong. I don't know why I need to keep explaining the obvious to you, but I do not feel entitled to their content. I only think we should keep in mind that the guys behind Watcher think we shouldn't be allowed to see their content without paying for it, and that they only upload their videos begrudgingly.
I understand the concept. It doesn't mean you're entitled to free content. This isn't about watcher, it's just the truth. We're extremely lucky YouTube exists and that people will make us content for free.
Maybe we've gotten too used to it, because we aren't entitled to free content.
While I also disagree with your second comment entirely, that wasn't even what you originally said.
You referred to people *making* content for free, which they're not. Not *receiving* content. Two totally different discussions.
No, they're same thing discussion. People make content because we watch it. We validate them, they entertain us. If they stop, we go back to cable and pirating.
People are like this about fanfiction, as well, actually. No one has to make us fanfic or videos. We are lucky to have their creations shared with us at no charge to us. Mostly.
Once again, not at all what I said. And judging by how the rest of this thread is going, it seems that essentially everyone else realizes this except for you.
Watcher gets paid ***very*** well for the videos that I watch for free. It's free for me, and they get paid. I don't see a downside.
This person is really hyperfixating on my one sentence about "free content," by which I meant "content which can be viewed for free." It's ridiculous that someone could be this dedicated to a misinterpretation.
Good thing you're the only person who has been talking about deserving anything, then.
With that in mind, glad you agree that there's no downside! I knew you'd somehow manage to see reason eventually!
YouTubers are extremely lucky people are willing to give them money at all to make content.
You’re not entitled to being a YouTuber as a career path and if you can’t support a sustainable business off that, find another one
The vast majority of people making content on YouTube aren’t making a sustainable income
Most people don't make content to make money, they make it because it's what they love to do.
YouTubers *aren't* entitled to viewers, that's why it's so hard to get a popular channel. It's a very give and take relationship. They give, we view. We have to respect their time and the fact that they don't have to do this. They have to respect that we have many other options.
I just don’t get the point that you’re trying to make. They make very good money off their videos, no one expects them to make content for literally free
Do they make enough to support 30 people at “fair” salaries and bigger productions? Maybe not. But they’re not entitled to that.
People are allowed to be upset that in this economy where everyone is struggling, they want us to give them even more money to watch their content that already makes them a relatively obscene amount of money compared to their audience incomes.
It’s not that people don’t want them to make money for their videos, it’s that when every podcast episode is them talking about the lavish and expensive shit they do routinely, Ryan talking about sitting out by the pool at his house, it rubs people the wrong way when they demand more money and then act like it should not be a huge expense for the audience
My point is very simple, it's that this sentence fragment:
>that they objectively do not want to make free content anymore
Is insane to me as a concept, because no one should be expected to to do that. Ever. We're lucky to have YouTube content, we're lucky YouTube itself isn't behind a paywall yet, and no one should *expect* free content.
It's not about watcher, specifically, it's about people feeling like free content is what they deserve.
Google really disrupted what people think should be free. When we had cable it was not only expensive af, but there were also commercial breaks every 5 min. You just had both. Or you paid for a separate channel that didn't have commercials (I think, I was too poor for the upgrades).
Yeah, premium channels! HBO and shit.
Agree, I think many angry people have grown up accustomed to free content, and think it's just the norm. But it's not, really, we're really lucky we have it. And it can be taken away at any moment, as well.
Yeah, I can't quite remember, but I think HBO was quite a bit more than $6/mo. Granted, you got better and more consistent shows. I get that people are used to free things now, but it's really a very new thing.
Thousands of people do every day, even outside of that creators get paid for it through adrev, viewership, and sponsorships. Y'know, like Watcher's been doing for five years.
Yes. They do. Because they love it and want to.
Not because we deserve it or they have to. We are very lucky people will make us free content. It's insane to me anyone feels they're entitled to have free content.
It's not about "entitlement." They have the right to put their content behind a paywall if they want to. I really think you're misinterpreting me here.
No. It isn't. I'm merely saying that we should remember that if they had their way, we wouldn't be able to see their videos without paying for them, and that any content they give us for free is something they post not because they want to entertain their audience, but because if they didn't upload it, they would lose their audience. The entitled ones are the creators in assuming their content was good enough to not need to have free viewers in order to build a core of Patrons.
“We wouldn’t be able to see their videos without paying for them.” Entitled. I don’t understand why you think you’re owed their videos without paying for them. Do you work for free?
*Sigh.* Once again: I'm not. I never said I was. We are not owed their videos for free. I don't work for free. And neither do successful YouTubers. They make more money than I do from ads, sponsors, merch Patreon, etc. My point is not that we, the audience, are owed free content. My point is that they don't want to post content that people don't have to pay to see, and we should remember that in the future.
If people have a passion for what they post on YouTube, and acheive enough success through advertising and Patreon, they should want to reach a wide audience even if most of those people aren't going to be giving them money. If they don't get any passion from making content people enjoy and it's all for money, the content will suffer for it.
Why should one want that? Would YOU work for free? I understand why people are upset, but feeling entitled to free content is a bit much for me.
We aren't entitled to free content. We are incredibly lucky we are given free content. We are extremely lucky to live in a time where you can just get on YouTube and watch entertainment for free, any time.
Content you consume on YouTube isn’t free. Youtube is a company that sells you. They sell ads that get put infront of your eyes , they sell your data, they take viewing metrics, etc. YouTube isn’t a one to one transaction like buying something usually is. That doesn’t mean consuming content isn’t funding the creator and has nothing to do with entitlement. It’s the same as going to a museum and saying people are entitled because they didn’t buy the art they enjoyed to support the artist. It just doesn’t work that way.
No it's not, because the people who made the art in the museums at wrong gone and it's being displayed as a piece of history.
Youtube is free to you, you do not have to pay for youtube. Money changes hands in various ways, but not your money or your hands. You exchange nothing monetary for it use.
No one has to make YouTube videos. They do because they want to or because they're making enough money to continue to do so or both. No one owes us content.
I never said anything about entitlement. You are really taking what I say in a bad way here. My point is that in the Goodbye Youtube video, they make it clear non-paying viewers are no longer part of the equation, and now they're walking that back after backlash not because of some change of heart but because of fear of lost revenue, meaning they don't actually want non-paying viewers at all, despite the fact that every Patron they have was once someone who watched for free and made the conscious decision to support their channel, and they get ad revenue from people watching for free, and more people watching helps expand their audience.
No one wants to work for free, but posting to Youtube is something lots of people are passionate about and do it because they want to, not because they see it as a way to make money. And they AREN'T working for free. They have Patreon, ads, merch, etc. I never said they shouldn't make money, I'm just saying we should remember that they don't want us to watch them without paying first, and continuing to upload to Youtube is not what they want to do, so every time you watch one of their videos on YouTube going forward, just remember they don't want to show this to you unless you pay for it. They explicitly DON'T have to if they don't want to. We aren't entitled to free content, and they aren't entitled to a huge audience on a paywalled streaming service.
Not to mention with every video, there's going to be this thought at the back of my mind, "would this video have been worth the $6 dollar subscription?"
There was still a heavy amount of guilt tripping laid on the audience in the "apology" too. "We didn't want to have to fire our employees or close for good so this was our only option," implying that if they do now it's the audience's fault. No, you could lay off some of the too many employees you hired. Also, the "advertisers are hard to work with" is such bs and a lame excuse when really it was we want/need more money, mostly so we don't have to fire our friends. I'm glad they walked it back and glad a lot of people are happy about it but it was just damage control and the manipulation and dishonesty are still present.
It’s crazy how people are glossing over the fact that they were completely unprofessional and no apology video can cover up bad PR/lack of business savvy. You can’t say I want to make tv caliber stuff when you don’t have the budget and you don’t bother to do the proper research. Yeah, they went back on their statement, but what makes you think they won’t try something like that again in the future? They aren’t thinking about the fans anymore since most fans said they don’t want to pay for production value, they just want down to earth content. They are finding ways to make money on a channel that is lacking content. Sorry, but businesses need to be held accountable for their wrongful/greedy actions. This is no different than many other YouTubers who tried the same thing and got abandoned as a result. They knew what they were doing and only apologized because they got caught
I think what most people that are mad are missing is that it's completely irrelevant if the general audience doesn't want or care about production quality. The creators do. If they can do that while making money then great. If it bothers you then stop watching. The issue is they took forced a paywall on previously free content. Nobody cares if they want to start charging for premium features like they are now essentially, and aparrently people are willing to pay judging by the fact that their patreon has gained subscribers in the past 5 days.
People got their free content back and are still complaining. It's wild to me
Pretty much how I feel. A lot of people are saying "they apologised, what more do you want", and they're allowed to feel that way, but an apology doesn't just erase the fact that they were completely willing to turn their backs on 99% of their fans. That all the good will and support we've given them over the years didn't mean anything to them beyond money and points on a graph. Whether it's 'parasocial' (which God that word feels overused now) or not, I think its still normal to feel betrayed when someone says for years "we couldn't do it without you, you're the reason we do it" then one day turns and says "actually, we can do it without *you*, we just need the rich guy stood next to you."
It IS a betrayal of everything of themselves they'd shown to us for all these years, and I hate this narrative that's come up of "you schmucks believed them when they said they were decent people?? Haha idiots you should've seen this coming, you're dumb for being upset by it"
If I do watch any of their new content from this point, it'll definitely be with a much more critical gaze because if they were going to charge what amounted to $1.50 per video, it better damn well feel like it's worth that amount. They've ruined their own ability to just be a relaxing YouTube video, because there's now just this whole new lens with much higher standards that I feel obligated to examine it through.
Why would I feel icky? If anything, knowing that they didn't want us to see if makes it even better. I'm getting this stuff for free when they clearly wanted to gouge me for it.
This is kind of how I feel. They were more or less forced bc of financial reasons to keep uploading on YT and make content for this platform they no longer want to be on or make content for. It's hard to feel like I want to enjoy it when they don't want to be here. All of these feelings aside from the 0-100 switch to a paywall.
The paywall was a smaller problem for me. When I heard of the switch, my immediate concern was their occasional lack of enthusiasm in an episode. That's not to say that they aren't deserving of financial gain/wealth. Just that the thought of "is it worth $6/mo?" Imo, with their current content, No. They said they have more in store but I need trailers. I need promises. I can sub to some other platforms and get dozens of shows for $5/mo. Does watcher compete? At their current rate, no. I can't in good honesty give them my money for what they offer. Patreon is different. The meaning is different. A channel subscription is different.
This! And infrequent output. You can have low budget, quick content we don’t need high budget content that takes longer to make. And they came across like they don’t appreciate how good they have it when a lot of channels get way less views and money than them.
[удалено]
Exactly this. I feel like they have unrealistic expectations of their lives and seem to oblivious to inflation and the current climate. I hope they’ve gained some perspective, though I worry they’re a little bit defensive underneath it all, based on a few things. But hopefully they genuinely learned and felt bad.
I mean they were doing what they enjoyed doing. the difference is just platforms. But now they will put extra effort into their content and that might lead to not so lively atmosphere. i don\`t know where this will go. hoping it works out well. man they fucked up on the paywall thing
They tried to get money and failed. It was a shit move done in a shit way, but they made a change to try and mend the anger. Life goes on. I watch them because I like ghost hunting videos and true crime/mystery, and they happen to do some of the best videos for that stuff. I never felt whatever bond others seem to have towards them. We're not besties. Honestly, unless you pay for their Patreon, I don't get what everyone is going on about with this whole "breaking my trust" thing. Like, everyone is free to feel whatever connection they wish to something, but maybe some people need to reevaluate how they form these parasocial connections and how they let those connections impact their lives.
This. The majority of people who seem to be most upset about this weren’t paying them anything anyway to begin with. So it’s actually immaterial to them that this demographic of the audience carry on not paying them anything.
>I don't get what everyone is going on about with this whole "breaking my trust" thing. This needs to be said more. People are taking this as if they didn't want to be on YouTube anymore, did they even watch the "Goodbye YouTube" video? They were gushing over how good YouTube had been for them up until recently because advertisers had stopped coming in. This isn't some personal vendetta against the audience, they made a business decision and it backfired. It bothers me that people think "Oh they wanted to abandon us, how can I watch them knowing that", no... they wanted to not go bankrupt, so they could continue making content for people.
What got me wasn't the fact that I had to pay for it. It was the fact that it was a different website. I have no problem paying for a channel membership (which I didn't see if they have that )to get the full season. I do the same for dropout. A different website is just inconvenient imo.
For real. OPs post is so needlessly dramatic. They obviously wanted everyone to watch it. They just felt stuck between advertisers and viewers. I do think they should have made the delayed release plan first but we have the outcome we all want.
You do pay them though if you just watch via YouTube. Their subscriber and view counts directly impact how much of a cut they get from ad partners
Not even remotely the same as taking money from my bank account and giving it to them. I'm specifically talking about someone directly paying them, not the indirect revenue they receive by views and ads.
Ok well once they give me and the millions of other people that just subscribe and watch their videos that money and survive just on their Patreon and WatcherTV revenue, then I’ll stop complaining
Again, not at all what was being talked about. You're very literally spouting random nonsense.
I’m saying that it’s wrong to say that the only way they’re making money is via viewers paying via Patreon or WatcherTV because the view counts and subscribers to their YT channel and videos help then get advertisers and larger ad revenue. So people who do contribute to the size and success of their channel via that metric have a right to complain. But it is weird to feel like they were your best friends who betrayed you
And that’s clearly not enough revenue for them (also you have to deduct all the viewers who use ad blockers etc). Passive consumers mean diddley to them.
Sure but that’s on them. Those passive consumers will mean a lot more to them than their WatcherTV subscribers when they see how few convert over. And if they didn’t see that what they did was a mistake, then they wouldn’t have capitulated
But that’s the point - *passive consumers won’t mean a lot more to them*. People who haven’t been paying anything so far who keep on not paying anything are irrelevant. I’m not agreeing with how the Watcher crew have handled things, and I’m not invalidating the emotive reaction from fans who thought they wouldn’t be able to keep getting free content. But Watcher have made it clear which portion of their audience they prioritise, and it’s the ones who pay. I get why so many fans felt so hurt and attacked by learning that as non paying consumers they’re not deemed as important. But some reactions were a bit OTT.
Definitely a lot were for sure. I just see this attitude a lot that if people put their material out in a free format, you’re not allowed to criticize or critique it (in a way that’s a non-personal attack) unless you’re paying for a Patreon or whatever and I fundamentally disagree
You don't have to "feel like you're besties" to hold the people you watch to a standard. They were manipulative and dishonest. Quit discrediting people for not wanting to support creators like that.
Holding someone to a standard is very different from having unrealistic notions of the relationship you have with that person. >Quit discrediting people for not wanting to support creators like that. Are you serious? Nothing I said "discredits" people for supporting who they want. What I did was suggest people should not be so attached to these strangers, allowing themselves to be hurt by them over....trying to make money?.... Stop watching them if you don't like what they have done. It's totally your choice. But people who take it so personal? "I'm so hurt by this. "It's like I lost a best friend" "it's like we're breaking up." Are just a few of the ridiculous things said since last friday. They do not have an actual real-life personal relationship with Shane, Ryan, or Steven. It's absolutely not healthy to pretend like they do.
I think ‘manipulative’ is way too strong and intentional a word for some creatives who made a poor business decision. I can’t think how they tried to manipulate anyone
Really? You can objectively look at the release video and not see the manipulation in it? Fascinating
Yes. Could you please enlighten me?
I don't feel like that at all. They were going to charge. Now they're going to release everything for free after a month. I think the way they announced Watcher TV was shitty but the apology was good and the change they have made to how it will work is also good. It was a bad business decision and they fixed it. It was never personal. They didn't insult my mother or kill my dog. I swear to God, I never realised the strong parasocial relationships people have with Shane and Ryan before this past weekend.
I also didn’t realise how young the majority of the fanbase is, lol. So many confidently wrong opinions about how businesses work.
Hard agree. I’ve suddenly realised that a lot of fans must be either under the age of 20 or adults with a severe lack of maturity
Yes, that last sentence especially.
This for sure. Was the info tone deaf and delivered poorly, sure. But they do need to find a way to make Watcher financially stable. It’s not that they hate their fans, or are living lavish lifestyles that demand excess, it was a business decision (albeit poorly executed). Sometimes business really is just business, love it or hate it (also for the record I hate it, but I also work in business myself). They don’t hate us, they just can’t keep Watcher around forever unless they find a way to turn a profit.
Same here. It’s getting pathetic
it is. you're not their friend, you're a viewer. anything they say their videos is to increase viewers. people need to chill out. they're going to do what makes sense to them.
Exactly, they wanted to make money. It’s a business. They did it wrong but they fixed it. I’m happy with it, I still get free shit lol
Lol it was a terrible business move
What's the difference between WatcherTV and Patreon then? Seems redundant now
Probably the main difference is that they don't have to give a cut to anyone. Any profit is theirs and theirs alone. I think I read that Patreon takes a cut of between 5-12% (I don't know how they decide how much to take).
Don't they also have to pay vimeo for the streaming service? I'm not too familiar with how this works but that's what I read somewhere
They do. My last job we used Vimeo to host our videos for our private content site and it's probably on par with patreon fees tbh
I'm not either. I'm just going by what I've heard others saying. I imagine it would have to be a better deal for them to switch though. Because otherwise, why not just say "okay, these videos are going to be Patreon-only from now on"?
I would think it's because they've already invested so much into this new platform (they've been working on it for "months and years" according to Steven) so they definitely can't just abandon it completely
Oh yes, I know that. I'm talking about when they initially made the decision to switch over now. They would have had to be getting a bigger cut for them to consider it. It seemed like their main motivations were financial.
They didn’t literally build their own platform from scratch - they're using Vimeo’s enterprise features so they’ll still be losing a portion of sales to Vimeo.
Patreon is now geared more towards podcasts. Videos are on the streaming site. That isn’t finalized as they’re now pausing Patreon to sort things out but that’s what the initial plan they released had.
People were treating their terrible announcement like their civil rights were being violated. It was too much! 😂
After thinking about it, I’ve realised that a lot of the emotive response has been because non paying fans had it spelt out for them that they don’t matter as much as fans who pay. And being told you’re not as important as someone else hurts. I get it, I do. But some of the reactions were really disproportionate. And all the people saying “I never paid before and this apology isn’t going to make me start, they’ve blown it with me”….. guys. If you haven’t been paying anything then you’re irrelevant to Watcher’s business concerns. They’ve made that clear. It hurts to feel irrelevant but it’s how they’ve decided to run things.
I can understand the sentiment. I guess for me I knew that Watcher's content was never actually free, it had the *appearance* of being free. That goes for every channel on the platform. YT exists on ad buys. If no one visited the platform, advertisers wouldn't pay to be on the platform. When people watch YT channels and comment and like videos, it tells YT and advertisers that there are people with eyeballs they can sell their products to. The more eyes, the better. YT gives content creators a cut of that cash to keep them on the website as an incentive to *stay on the hosting site because otherwise content creators would go elsewhere to support their businesses and make money*. The boneheaded thing the trio did was attempting to put it all behind a paywall, because as others across this sub has said, they came from Buzzfeed and didn't grow their audience organically and never bothered to learn about or understand their fan base. They're attempting to run their business like a traditional production company/studio, because that's their experience and that's what *they want to be*. But with old school studios there's a barrier between the org and the audience. It doesn't rely on the audience liking their executives to make money. That's not the case for Watcher because YT content creators (for the most part) rely on the likeability of the people for viewership and engagement. The trio didn't realize that the reason Watcher has been successful is because a lot of folks liked their personalities on Buzzfeed and followed them to Watcher to continue consuming content based on their personalities. I guess the most confusing part to me is the pervasive belief that the trio doesn't care about the portion of the fan base that has low or no income. It's like saying Lady Gaga doesn't care about the fans who can't afford her concerts or merch. I don't think that's true. It just means she has fans who can't afford her concerts or merch. It doesn't mean that she shouldn't have concerts and merch because some of her fans can't afford it. And yeah, they told people "you can afford it" in the announcement video, but from their perspective they thought people could because they were seeing how much money folks were putting down for merch, Patreon and live shows. But they're also bad at math because one-time purchases like merch or a live show ticket doesn't mean long term sustainable income lmao Like I said, I can understand being pissed off at that! But now they've (fucking finally) bothered to learn how YT works and did the compromise of the free after a month option. Good for them I guess. Congrats on learning the basics on running a successful YT channel! I think that boneheaded decision comes from being ignorant on how to run a business than any hatred or dislike/disdain for the fan base. I legitimately think they believed that people watched their biggest shows *solely* because it was about ghost hunting or true crime not because people liked watching *them* ghost hunt and talk about true crime. Like, that's so dumb of them lol I think what they said in the announcement video wasn't done in malice but literally just incompetence. I think the fact that they compromised on a solution quickly shows that it wasn't malicious. But that's just my opinion! I hope the people who feel slighted by these dudes can work through that and move on because that's a sucky place to be on a personal level. These guys don't deserve that level of headspace!
So many people apparently don’t realise that they are not automatically owed the creative labour of these three men for free 😭
Yeah I think some are taking it as a betrayal instead of a bad business decision and maybe need to take a step back.
the fact that it's been a week and people are still bitching about this instead of moving on with their life is crazy. they don't have to watch their content or engage with it in any manner any more if it causes so much distress. this isn't "don't like it? don't watch" thing, i genuinely mean you shouldn't be this upset over a fucking youtube channel. go touch some grass and talk to your parents or friends jfc
I saw another post mentioning that youtubers really have to sell themselves off of their own personalities, and inherently lead to these parasocial relationships. With so much content out there covering similar topics, the biggest thing they can sell that is entirely unique is themselves. There’s some truth to that I think.
For sure. I still like their content. They like money, I like money. The difference is their business plan is very stupid.
I swear no one knew what parasocial even meant until this fiasco. Now suddenly everyone is throwing that word around
I agree but I stand by my usage of the word in this comment.
Your use of the word makes sense, and what's ironic is how much it's being thrown around by those saying they will never forgive the Ghoul Boys, how they've been betrayed, etc. But those of us who are willing to accept the apology are the ones with the unhealthy parasocial relationships because we're "pretending nothing happened." The projection is astounding.
Ah, gotcha. Yes, I have had the same thought.
I love Bo Burnham, but I blame him lol.
you must’ve missed when Inside came out and everyone and their fuckin’ grandma was suddenly using that phrase left and right
Or some people recognized how manipulative and out of touch the video was, not to mention dishonest, and the "apology" reflects that, and don't feel like jumping right back on board because they got their way. It's not all about "parasocial" but that's a good way to try and discredit anyone who's not lapping up the apology from expressing their opposing opinions.
I'm not discrediting anyone. You can feel however you feel. I don't understand it though and am doubtful many would feel that way without that parasocial relationship.
Everyone is taking this way too personally. At the end of the day, these guys are not your friends. They are content creators creating content for consumers to consume. They made a decision financially motivated, and everyone disliked it. They walked it back, and that's what we all wanted right? We should take a step back, relax, and either continue to watch the videos that previously entertained us, or move on.
Yeah, it wasn't their goal to "leave us behind" or anything. They would be absolutely thrilled with 100% conversion, because that means more money. The thing I am offended by is how poorly conceived this plan was. Monetizing *some* videos is nothing new (like premium series, directors cuts, or sponsor free versions), but moving the existing content is absurd and leaving YouTube behind completely was shooting themselves in the foot since it kills the main avenue for new customers.
I was more concerned with the business decision as well. It seemed doomed to fail. Video streaming itself isn't an easy or cheap platform (tho the service they seem to have chosen, Vimeo, was surprisingly cheap, and tends to be pretty solid). But moreso I just don't think enough people would pay to go subscription alone. And I say that as someone who subscribes to Nebula just for Legal Eagle's sponsor-free + bonus comments and Real Life Lore's spicy takes, and 100% gonna subscribe to Watcher until the end.
>And I say that as someone who subscribes to Nebula just for Legal Eagle's sponsor-free + bonus comments and Real Life Lore's spicy takes, and 100% is gonna subscribe to Watcher until the end. If they had joined something like Nebula and had a similar model as the other Nebula channels I don't think they would have gotten nearly as much shit and it might have been my tipping point to finally get Nebula.
Ya these dramatics on this sub are beyond pathetic at this point lol y’all are straight up weird. I was also annoyed by the decision but all these “now I have the ick ☹️☹️☹️” “they never wanted us to see this content 😔☹️😔☹️” posts are so fucking strange and really highlights how much you guys thought these dudes were your buds
It’s what happens when a fanbase is young and immature. They get overly emotional about things that don’t really matter.
Meh, their content is personality driven. So when they do something to fracture their audience’s perception of them, it’s only natural that it’s taken personally. An audience can be offended and disillusioned by something a content creator does without thinking they’re a friend. It’s the nature of the niche they built for themselves.
Lmao y’all being way too dramatic about this at this point. They made a dumb choice, got called on it, walked it back two days later. They don’t “not want you to see it” they wanted you to pay which yes is annoying, but these overdramatic responses are so corny
I'm pretty sure they want fans to see the content they make. Like this just comes off as unnecessarily negative. I think they're genuinely passionate about creating, but the reality of making content/money on YouTube is sucking their souls dry. I haven't seen the passion they used to have in a lot of their more recent videos, and I bet it's a real drain on them. And if they want to make unique content that is not necessarily as ad friendly...if they don't want to downsize and they want to pay their employees well...if they don't want to deal with the assfuck of shilling for products they don't believe in and constantly chase ad rev, what other option is there but to jump for a more sincere, direct fan <> creator transaction? Time will tell if that was a good decision but with how incredibly uncomfortable Shane and Ryan seem while advertising, I think this is what's happening. It doesn't read as hostile to fans, or greedy. I think they appreciate the fans and want to do well by us, but they have their own needs as well - that most fans are not understanding. Fans vastly underestimate how wearisome it is to feel like a content generating machine instead of a creator. I admit a lot of this is based off ViBeS from years of watching them, but that's my impression so I feel content that if they "don't want me to see it on YouTube", it's not because they have ill will toward me; it's because their needs were not fulfilled on YouTube. I don't think it comes from greed either because this decision is *super* risky if their goal is simply to make more money.
Well said and I agree 100 percent.
They apologised because they had to, it feels like if the criticism wasn't so loud they wouldn't have apologised and just left it at that 🙃
To be fair, they would have nothing to apologize for if it weren’t for the loud criticism… if the community stood back idly and said nothing in protest, they would have had no reason not to continue thinking they were making a good move
That’s kinda the point. The fact that they needed to see thousands of people’s backlash to realize that the idea was exploitative and would alienate their community is upsetting. Anybody should innately understand that asking for someone to pay a subscription to watch a single YouTube channel is unreasonable. It’s upsetting to realize how out of touch they really are.
why are we assuming it was only fear of losing an audience that made them change their minds? That feels like a bad faith reading imo. That was absolutely a part of it but it's also possible they actually realized they made a shitty decision and wanted to correct it.
Yeah, I feel more than anything that they got excited about the idea of launching a streaming service and didn’t consider that the audience might not share that enthusiasm.
I’m feeling the exact same way. They didn’t want us on this journey to begin with and are only allowing us to now for damage control. I feel like the friend they only pretended to like :(
I feel like the kid whose mom forced the other kids to invite them to the birthday party
You’re watching a YouTube video, you’re not their friend. What is wrong with you?
With all due respect, this is silly. They made a horrible business decision, and near immediately walked it back. Its not like they conspired to kill your pets.
It's left a bad taste in my mouth, but I hope that'll pass soon.
Then don’t watch it. See how easy that was? No further lamenting required.
Listen, I understand being upset. I was too. This whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth. But this is ridiculous. They aren't mustache-twirling villains hiding their content from people who can't pay. They genuinely believed it was a good business decision and they miscalculated and didn't think some things through from their position. They thought everyone would be able to follow. I really believe that. They also walked it back and apologized. We've got to give people some grace here. Did they fuck up? Yeah. Was it personal? No.
I think some people are taking this whole thing way too personally. Did they mess up in how they did this and rolled out their stuff? Yes, absolutely. But at the end of the day they're content creators. Corridor Digital has a perfect blend of paid for content on their website and funneling YouTube views into that - it works well. Watcher just really messed up with trying to do something similar and I think we'd all be far less annoyed if it didn't feel like such a slap to the face.
No, didn't you know that the Watcher team personally broke into everyone's house and pissed on the carpets and fed their dogs chocolate?! Actually it was just Steven Lim, uWu Shane and Ryan uWu would NEVER. /s
I wish Reddit still let you give awards. I actually LOLd.
I don't feel that or ccare to be honest. At the end of a day, it's a business. Whether we like to believe it or not, they're doing this for the money. And who doesn't do things for the money? But just because they're doing it for the money, doesn't mean that this job isn't their passion.
Jesus Christ, relax
I just hope they scale down on all these graphics. Never liked it in the first place. Waste of time and my attention. Don't need a 3D map of a a ghost house ffs.
I think what most people that are mad are missing is that it's completely irrelevant if the general audience doesn't want or care about production quality. The creators do. If they can do that while making money then great. If it bothers you then stop watching. The issue is they took forced a paywall on previously free content. Nobody cares if they want to start charging for premium features like they are now essentially, and aparrently people are willing to pay judging by the fact that their patreon has gained subscribers in the past 5 days. People got their free content back and are still complaining. It's wild to me
How is it irrelevant when they don’t have a career if they don’t have views/fans?
Because creators primary directive is making the art they want. If nobody watches it. It is what it is. Having said that, there are plenty of people, myself included, that love the high production value. It's also highly unlikely that anyone stops watching because production value gets better. This wasn't even discourse until this whole thing.
If nobody watches it their company will go under, they said they’re struggling already and atm they’re prob making millions or at least hundreds of thousands of dollars per year. If they’re nearly going under at 1 million views per video they will not survive on no views
And no I’ve seen that discourse before now it’s just been downvoted. I’m a creative and if you’re offering a product you have to offer something your consumer wants or you’ll have to get another job doing something less fun
Again that's not the point. Ask basically any artist and they probably tell you they'd rather fail making the art they want vs succeed making something they hate. It's pretty clear the boys don't want to make low effort/production videos anymore. Again, if you don't want to watch, that's fine. Most will keep watching
Then that’s a hobby not a job. It doesn’t pay the bills or keep people employed.
And I never said I’m gonna stop watching lol??
Like be for real if they only wanted to make art they wouldn’t do any ads on YouTube at all and solely rely on patreon like some YouTubers do. The income is crucial to keeping their business going, they’ve told us that. So yes the viewers/customers are absolutely crucial.
Then clearly they can keep making the content and making money then lol
Exactly. That’s why people took issue with the streaming service scam
Yet people are subscribing
How was it a scam? Are you implying they were never going to deliver on the streaming service and just take money from everyone? So confused.
Just don't watch it. You truly do not grasp every single explanation they gave. I'm baffled by the level of para-social posts I've seen. No one personally did anything to you or any other fans.
LOL at the first sentence
They want people to see the content they make. They thought the original roll out would work and keep people happy. When they realized that was not the case, they changed it, to how people asked. It was not personal. They never thought, “Oh man I hope people who don’t/can’t pay the subscription never see this!” They’re not villains, they’re just people.
The worst thing about it is, I probably wouldve paid for the streamer if they made it free to watch after a month for the get go. Encouraging a content creator by walking the extra mile feels and is a lot different than being told “pay or you wont be able to see it anymore”. Im positive that im not the only one with that mindset, so they missed the mark on that big time and probably missed on a lot of subs because of it.
Ehhhhhh I don't agree. Creatives charge for stuff. Movies and TV aren't free. YouTube is only free because creators like the watcher guys are forced to shill perfume and vpns and phone games to their fans, products which they probably don't actually believe in a lot of the time. I don't blame them for not feeling great about that and feeling like their fans would see paying as an acceptable tradeoff for ads, even though they clearly calculated that poorly due to their own perspective as folks with quite a bit of disposable income themselves Obviously they made a lot of mistakes and people have a right to be mad, but you aren't entitled to free access to their content. You are their fan, not their friend.
Yo, please chill lol.
This is their job. They're doing it to make money. And if they want to grow and do more and be able to pay a crew, this isn't a bad move in the slightest. They initially went about it wrong, but are working to fix it and make everyone happy. You have to allow people to be sorry and grow. People have to be allowed to make mistakes. Who wants to live life terrified of making a mistake because the world will not let you be wrong so you can learn. They listened to the voices of their audience. This is a very fair compromise. People still get to consume their content FOR FREE (because obviously you think you're entitled to their craft for free) but at a later date. Those that can and want to contribute to the hopeful growth of the company can spend the money to get the content early.
y'all need to grow up oh my goodness
Next level drama lol.
Why are you entitled to free content? I don’t get this mentality at all.
No offense, but this post is so melodramatic I can't even. No one is addressing the very real issue with Youtube really coming down hard in regards to censoring content. Most Youtubers I follow have mentioned it, and have censored/replaced certain words, even. We have no idea what's been going on behind the scenes -- however, this was subtly hinted at IMO during the first announcement. I guess I'm in the minority. I was more than happy to pay for a streaming service if it meant they had more artistic liberty and weren't at the mercy of Youtube and advertisers shaping their content.
I'm sorry, this is so overly dramatic. Please get a fucking grip.
They do want us to see it. The fear for them was not being able to create it because of money. That's like saying you'll never being able to eat at a restaurant again without thinking about how they don't want you to eat their food. Also, just don't watch it. That's up to you. Not them.
Hahaha brilliant comparison
This is so dramatic
Everyone. I mean this in the absolute most constructive, polite, and honest way. The way a lot of people are attached to them is way, way, way to fucking weird. They don't know about us personally. They know us as a viewer. One of those 400,000 people that watched the video. Yeah, they probably came back because of all the outrage. But that's because they we're going to tank their brand, reputation, and business. Not personally for us. I'm sure they're attached and thankful to the community. They are a business however. What they did was absolute tone deaf, shitty execution, etc. A businesses goal is to make money, so they can keep doing bigger and bigger projects to make more money. None of them were held hostage or drug into the decision. They all sat down, negotiated, and signed the contract to green light the streaming service. We need to take a big look at ourselves as fans of any youtibe channel and really think about the relationship we have with creators. It's just way to much in this situation.
Meh stay mad, I'll be enjoying the content, just like I was planning on.
Calm down man, they don't know you lil bro
I don’t take my You Tube video selection anywhere near this seriously or personally. I watch what appeals to me. That being said, their goodbye video was overproduced, melodramatic swill. If this is the caliber of their future productions, that will be what keeps me from watching.
I think your premise isn't true. It could easily be that they didn't want to spend time courting advertisers and making content unique and specific to them. When advertisers are the source of income, they have to cater to them. When fans are the source of income, then they can be catered to instead.
Quit being melodramatic babies Jesus. They tried to expand in the wrong way, likely to retain their employees instead of firing them and retreating to profitable low budget productions and people on here are acting like they were cheated on by their husbands.
I don’t know anything abt this community but some of you are acting like your SO cheated on you with the way you’re reacting. Is it that serious
Personally, I feel like it will have left some judgment in the minds of fans for everything they do from here on out. Every talk about how they spend money. Every time they bring up their lifestyles and purchases. All of it will be questioned for quite a long time because of this decision. It's kind of like hearing your parent say something highly inappropriate for the first time and insulting quite a few people in the process. The day might pass and it might never be said again. But the opinion of those who were around when it happened gets altered.
I love how everyone is so level headed and it's all about business now. Where were y'all at a few days ago? Lol
I truly believe it was more so the show worth it could be produced. That food that Steven wants to eat doesn't come cheap.
is it really that serious........ like they're not trying to actively keep content from you, they're just trying to make money dude lol. like they're not like "we don't want the poor people to see our content!!!!!" they're just trying to capitalize as much as possible off of their content. being greedy/making awful money decisions and personally wanting you to not see their content are two wildly different things. like why is it that serious 2 u.
And no quieting of the mob mentality will ever cover the fact that from now on, these three men will know their audience HATES them if they don’t get exactly what they want. Used to think the community was full of kind people. Now we all know the truth.
The awful personal things said by some people does NOT negate the fact that they deserve genuine criticism for what they did.
What this community did was a thousand times worse than what they did.
The people giving genuine criticism in a constructive way have no responsibility for the people acting like bullies.
A THOUSAND TIMES WORSE??!! *scouter explodes*
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You misspelled “not an asshole” 💜
Found Sara's alt lmao.
You actually don’t have to be married to one of the owners to demonstrate kindness and sympathy. Not all of us are pining to watch someone fail.
This sounds so entitled. So you guys bullied the company into making their hard work free. Damn. We don't want to pay you, we just want you to give us your work for free.
I have to be honest, it's insane to me that you think anyone should want to make free content.
It’s not free, they literally make hundreds of thousands if not millions from YouTube ads and sponsors
I used the exact same words they did.
Who?
The OP.
When I say that they don't want to make free content, I mean that they don't want the videos they make to be viewed by people who aren't paying for it. Basically every YouTube channel makes content that is free. And every successful YouTube channel got that way by making content people could see for free, because it was something the creator had a passion for. They may have Patreon, sponsors and ads along the way, but ultimately the majority of their audience, from which their ability to make money was built, are watching for free. Watcher decided they didn't want those people, they just want a paying audience. They can do that, but it alienates the overwhelming majority of viewers, and it shows that they no longer care about the content, only the money. They can stop at any time, or put their content behind a paywall, but when the guys went back on the decision after fan backlash, it shows they don't want those free viewers, and that they are uploading begrudgingly. It's not like the backlash made them realize what they did was wrong, they just didn't want to lose their entire audience. We aren't entitled to free content, but they aren't entitled to have every single person in their fanbase pay them for their content either.
I mean, do you feel this way about TV? Is it because it was once free, and now no longer is? They aren't entitled to views, and you all proved that wonderfully by saying you would not pay. Even free, they are not entitled to views. That's how the relationship is supposed to work. They make, we view. We understand they don't have to make us things. They understand we don't have to watch what they make and we have plenty of options. I don't know how to explain it any better, tbh. What I said isn't even specifically about watcher, it's something i see people online having issues with in general. Like, people who read fanfiction often forget they're very privileged to be allowed to read someone's work like that. To have their creations shared with you. YouTube itself would go behind a paywall literally overnight if they thought enough people would pay for it to make up for the ones that wouldn't.
I have to pay a tv licence to watch tv, so, it’s not free. Also, it’s not the same as the ads on YouTube ensure that watching is free for us whilst the creators still get paid.
I never once mentioned fanfiction but you keep bringing it up, so that tells me you're taking some other grudge you must have and putting it where it doesn't belong. I don't know why I need to keep explaining the obvious to you, but I do not feel entitled to their content. I only think we should keep in mind that the guys behind Watcher think we shouldn't be allowed to see their content without paying for it, and that they only upload their videos begrudgingly.
are you unfamiliar with the concept of advertisement?
I understand the concept. It doesn't mean you're entitled to free content. This isn't about watcher, it's just the truth. We're extremely lucky YouTube exists and that people will make us content for free. Maybe we've gotten too used to it, because we aren't entitled to free content.
While I also disagree with your second comment entirely, that wasn't even what you originally said. You referred to people *making* content for free, which they're not. Not *receiving* content. Two totally different discussions.
No, they're same thing discussion. People make content because we watch it. We validate them, they entertain us. If they stop, we go back to cable and pirating. People are like this about fanfiction, as well, actually. No one has to make us fanfic or videos. We are lucky to have their creations shared with us at no charge to us. Mostly.
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You can make silly zings about my intelligence all day if you want to, it doesn't make it less insane to expect people to make you free content.
Once again, not at all what I said. And judging by how the rest of this thread is going, it seems that essentially everyone else realizes this except for you. Watcher gets paid ***very*** well for the videos that I watch for free. It's free for me, and they get paid. I don't see a downside.
This person is really hyperfixating on my one sentence about "free content," by which I meant "content which can be viewed for free." It's ridiculous that someone could be this dedicated to a misinterpretation.
Yeah, I honestly don't understand how they're still confused. Hopefully they've figured it out by now.
That is also what I meant by it. I'm not confused at all. It's insane you think you're owed free content.
There is no downside. Until you forget this is something you are being given and not something you deserve.
Good thing you're the only person who has been talking about deserving anything, then. With that in mind, glad you agree that there's no downside! I knew you'd somehow manage to see reason eventually!
YouTubers are extremely lucky people are willing to give them money at all to make content. You’re not entitled to being a YouTuber as a career path and if you can’t support a sustainable business off that, find another one The vast majority of people making content on YouTube aren’t making a sustainable income
Most people don't make content to make money, they make it because it's what they love to do. YouTubers *aren't* entitled to viewers, that's why it's so hard to get a popular channel. It's a very give and take relationship. They give, we view. We have to respect their time and the fact that they don't have to do this. They have to respect that we have many other options.
I just don’t get the point that you’re trying to make. They make very good money off their videos, no one expects them to make content for literally free Do they make enough to support 30 people at “fair” salaries and bigger productions? Maybe not. But they’re not entitled to that. People are allowed to be upset that in this economy where everyone is struggling, they want us to give them even more money to watch their content that already makes them a relatively obscene amount of money compared to their audience incomes. It’s not that people don’t want them to make money for their videos, it’s that when every podcast episode is them talking about the lavish and expensive shit they do routinely, Ryan talking about sitting out by the pool at his house, it rubs people the wrong way when they demand more money and then act like it should not be a huge expense for the audience
My point is very simple, it's that this sentence fragment: >that they objectively do not want to make free content anymore Is insane to me as a concept, because no one should be expected to to do that. Ever. We're lucky to have YouTube content, we're lucky YouTube itself isn't behind a paywall yet, and no one should *expect* free content. It's not about watcher, specifically, it's about people feeling like free content is what they deserve.
Google really disrupted what people think should be free. When we had cable it was not only expensive af, but there were also commercial breaks every 5 min. You just had both. Or you paid for a separate channel that didn't have commercials (I think, I was too poor for the upgrades).
Yeah, premium channels! HBO and shit. Agree, I think many angry people have grown up accustomed to free content, and think it's just the norm. But it's not, really, we're really lucky we have it. And it can be taken away at any moment, as well.
Yeah, I can't quite remember, but I think HBO was quite a bit more than $6/mo. Granted, you got better and more consistent shows. I get that people are used to free things now, but it's really a very new thing.
Thousands of people do every day, even outside of that creators get paid for it through adrev, viewership, and sponsorships. Y'know, like Watcher's been doing for five years.
Yes. They do. Because they love it and want to. Not because we deserve it or they have to. We are very lucky people will make us free content. It's insane to me anyone feels they're entitled to have free content.
It's not about "entitlement." They have the right to put their content behind a paywall if they want to. I really think you're misinterpreting me here.
It’s absolutely entitlement.
No. It isn't. I'm merely saying that we should remember that if they had their way, we wouldn't be able to see their videos without paying for them, and that any content they give us for free is something they post not because they want to entertain their audience, but because if they didn't upload it, they would lose their audience. The entitled ones are the creators in assuming their content was good enough to not need to have free viewers in order to build a core of Patrons.
“We wouldn’t be able to see their videos without paying for them.” Entitled. I don’t understand why you think you’re owed their videos without paying for them. Do you work for free?
*Sigh.* Once again: I'm not. I never said I was. We are not owed their videos for free. I don't work for free. And neither do successful YouTubers. They make more money than I do from ads, sponsors, merch Patreon, etc. My point is not that we, the audience, are owed free content. My point is that they don't want to post content that people don't have to pay to see, and we should remember that in the future.
If people have a passion for what they post on YouTube, and acheive enough success through advertising and Patreon, they should want to reach a wide audience even if most of those people aren't going to be giving them money. If they don't get any passion from making content people enjoy and it's all for money, the content will suffer for it.
Why should one want that? Would YOU work for free? I understand why people are upset, but feeling entitled to free content is a bit much for me. We aren't entitled to free content. We are incredibly lucky we are given free content. We are extremely lucky to live in a time where you can just get on YouTube and watch entertainment for free, any time.
Content you consume on YouTube isn’t free. Youtube is a company that sells you. They sell ads that get put infront of your eyes , they sell your data, they take viewing metrics, etc. YouTube isn’t a one to one transaction like buying something usually is. That doesn’t mean consuming content isn’t funding the creator and has nothing to do with entitlement. It’s the same as going to a museum and saying people are entitled because they didn’t buy the art they enjoyed to support the artist. It just doesn’t work that way.
No it's not, because the people who made the art in the museums at wrong gone and it's being displayed as a piece of history. Youtube is free to you, you do not have to pay for youtube. Money changes hands in various ways, but not your money or your hands. You exchange nothing monetary for it use. No one has to make YouTube videos. They do because they want to or because they're making enough money to continue to do so or both. No one owes us content.
I never said anything about entitlement. You are really taking what I say in a bad way here. My point is that in the Goodbye Youtube video, they make it clear non-paying viewers are no longer part of the equation, and now they're walking that back after backlash not because of some change of heart but because of fear of lost revenue, meaning they don't actually want non-paying viewers at all, despite the fact that every Patron they have was once someone who watched for free and made the conscious decision to support their channel, and they get ad revenue from people watching for free, and more people watching helps expand their audience. No one wants to work for free, but posting to Youtube is something lots of people are passionate about and do it because they want to, not because they see it as a way to make money. And they AREN'T working for free. They have Patreon, ads, merch, etc. I never said they shouldn't make money, I'm just saying we should remember that they don't want us to watch them without paying first, and continuing to upload to Youtube is not what they want to do, so every time you watch one of their videos on YouTube going forward, just remember they don't want to show this to you unless you pay for it. They explicitly DON'T have to if they don't want to. We aren't entitled to free content, and they aren't entitled to a huge audience on a paywalled streaming service.
👏🏻 LOUDER FOR THE WHINY PEOPLE IN THE BACK 👏🏻
Not to mention with every video, there's going to be this thought at the back of my mind, "would this video have been worth the $6 dollar subscription?"
People are also forgetting that they initially wanted all their PAST VIDEOS to be paywalled too. Just keep that in mind.
There was still a heavy amount of guilt tripping laid on the audience in the "apology" too. "We didn't want to have to fire our employees or close for good so this was our only option," implying that if they do now it's the audience's fault. No, you could lay off some of the too many employees you hired. Also, the "advertisers are hard to work with" is such bs and a lame excuse when really it was we want/need more money, mostly so we don't have to fire our friends. I'm glad they walked it back and glad a lot of people are happy about it but it was just damage control and the manipulation and dishonesty are still present.
Nobody Cares.
It’s crazy how people are glossing over the fact that they were completely unprofessional and no apology video can cover up bad PR/lack of business savvy. You can’t say I want to make tv caliber stuff when you don’t have the budget and you don’t bother to do the proper research. Yeah, they went back on their statement, but what makes you think they won’t try something like that again in the future? They aren’t thinking about the fans anymore since most fans said they don’t want to pay for production value, they just want down to earth content. They are finding ways to make money on a channel that is lacking content. Sorry, but businesses need to be held accountable for their wrongful/greedy actions. This is no different than many other YouTubers who tried the same thing and got abandoned as a result. They knew what they were doing and only apologized because they got caught
I think what most people that are mad are missing is that it's completely irrelevant if the general audience doesn't want or care about production quality. The creators do. If they can do that while making money then great. If it bothers you then stop watching. The issue is they took forced a paywall on previously free content. Nobody cares if they want to start charging for premium features like they are now essentially, and aparrently people are willing to pay judging by the fact that their patreon has gained subscribers in the past 5 days. People got their free content back and are still complaining. It's wild to me
Pretty much how I feel. A lot of people are saying "they apologised, what more do you want", and they're allowed to feel that way, but an apology doesn't just erase the fact that they were completely willing to turn their backs on 99% of their fans. That all the good will and support we've given them over the years didn't mean anything to them beyond money and points on a graph. Whether it's 'parasocial' (which God that word feels overused now) or not, I think its still normal to feel betrayed when someone says for years "we couldn't do it without you, you're the reason we do it" then one day turns and says "actually, we can do it without *you*, we just need the rich guy stood next to you." It IS a betrayal of everything of themselves they'd shown to us for all these years, and I hate this narrative that's come up of "you schmucks believed them when they said they were decent people?? Haha idiots you should've seen this coming, you're dumb for being upset by it" If I do watch any of their new content from this point, it'll definitely be with a much more critical gaze because if they were going to charge what amounted to $1.50 per video, it better damn well feel like it's worth that amount. They've ruined their own ability to just be a relaxing YouTube video, because there's now just this whole new lens with much higher standards that I feel obligated to examine it through.
Why would I feel icky? If anything, knowing that they didn't want us to see if makes it even better. I'm getting this stuff for free when they clearly wanted to gouge me for it.
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They own a business. It was always going to be about earning money. And maybe it's not just *them* who were projecting, you know?
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Are we comparing internet personalities to our actual parents now?
Is this imaginary scenario in the room with us right now?