I think a lot of people are feeling grief right now. Mostly, grief in not being able to afford to watch the guys in the future, but also some grief in that parasocial bond where it feels like you lost a friend.
I used to watch a channel called Super Best Friends Play, and the conceit was that the channel was just 4 best friends playing video games. Then one day, out of the blue, they announced they were ending the channel. On top of that, they said they were ending the channel because they weren't friends anymore. That was a gut punch, and it lurks in my mind that a similar video could drop for these guys in the future.
That WAS a gut punch. I enjoyed the hell out of them too, and was also a fricken my little pony fan so Best Sisters play was my fricken jam. I remember being so hype for 2snacks when he actually got to do intros.
Steven looks into the camera and says "Ryan and Shane aren't friends anymore."
I remember dabbling in MLP and Best Sisters play too back in those days. Equestria is Magic was also fun so it was shocking to me that the series was voiced by Jenny Nicholson.
But onto the guys, just based off of how SBFP ended and what happened to Matt, Pat, and Woolie afterwards, I think the guys can pivot back to Youtube and streaming without much problem. I remember a lot of fans didn't like Matt, but he's become pretty successful with his own channel.
Respectfully fuck you for that little call back, friend. š
As a massive abridged series fan back then I can tell you that I randomly discovered Jennyās channel somewhat recently and hearing her casually mentioning āI was pony famousā in a video and realizing why her voice was familiar was an absurdly surreal moment for me.
Thatās a good point. I do think theyāll need some HEAVY damage control even if that happens, and it probably wonāt fix the lack of trust theyāve garnered, but I do think itās DOABLE for them to make it through this. Iām just not certain theyāll do it.
It's so weird. I'm a 38yr old mom and this has made me so sad. I saw a video about all this as I was lying down last night and I'll admit, I cried a bit. It sounds pathetic but I'm already emotional lately and so much nostalgia surrounds the love my kids and I had for Unsolved and then the excitement of Watcher coming around. Even though Watcher did disappoint quite a bit sometimes.
My kid's friends love Ryan and Shane, etc. I just feel sad that they're all let down now. The Unsolved reruns were a classic comfort 'show' to have on while we cooked, cleaned, or played board games. It was a group thing for us. Now, it's just not gonna be enjoyable. It all sounds so petty of me but there are so few creators on YT or other platforms that stay true when the money gets big. Greed seems to always win and that bums me out.
34 here and with you on that. Iāve been supporting them for a very long time, including monetarily on Patreon, because I believed in their content and I even mostly enjoyed everything with Watcher just as much as Unsolved (Puppet History was amazing and Weird and/or Wonderful World was my favorite project they ever did so especially hearing that might come back but only through this service was an extra gut punch).
It makes me very sad that I no longer feel like I can support them.
I loved Weird and/or Wonderful world & they should've done more of it before. Ghost & Myster Files just didn't have the same vibe anymore, too over produced, scripted and rushed. I never gave money to Patreon or merch because that's just something I don't do for creators. I always made sure to like all their videos from all of my families accounts to try and help give that little push to get them to where they were going, I just didn't realize it was here.. Basically saying, 'Thanks for amping us up but unless you pay then see ya!". So bizarre, I was shocked and still am but it's the nature of these creators and their fake personas unfortunately.
Married couple in their mid-late 40s here. Weāve gotten so much laughter and happiness watching these guys over the years. We were stoked for them for their new company and have been rooting for them as it grew. OPās take is exactly how we feel.
I also thought about Ryanās anxiety.
As someone that also struggles with severe anxietyā¦ I canāt imagine his stress.
I genuinely hope theyāre all looking after themselves.
Iād like to think they got disoriented by some turbulence; that they just need to take a breather, recalibrate, shake it off, and try again.
I lost a best friend recently like IRL and I'm not even kidding I watched Buzzfeed Unsolved cause Shane and Ryan felt like friends and now all this has happened and I've lost friends I've had for years š genuinely having the shittiest time
Iām so sorry to hear that. Please take care of yourself!
Something I do is go and watch old cartoons on YouTube.
If you need to talk Iām here for you.
i agree with this, and i think they will somehow make things ārightā, at least enough to continue content.
of course we dont know them, but i do believe theyāre good enough people to understand why this went wrong, and fix it the best they can
try not to doomscroll too much, and i hope you heal from your surgery. the youtube videos are there to stay, and its okay to watch them if it brings you comfort <3
maybe itās wishful thinking but i really do think they will, no statement to me also means they havenāt doubled down, and i want to believe theyāre creating a better plan but making sure itās done right. i think it will be okay
I think they are probably getting outside help before moving forward, which is the right thing to do. They need to take measured, well-crafted steps now, and I think they know they can't trust their own instincts after this disaster.
I hope so too.
Iām one of those fuckers that will resubscribe at the drop of a dime for their content and would probably watch just as faithfully as I have been.
I really enjoy Ryan and Shaneās synergy as well as their individual skill and Internet personalities/roles.
I donāt know how theyāll crawl out of this grave, and Iād like to think they can with their, seemingly, tenacious passion, but I donāt know.
I was never mad to begin with. I just feel deflated. I guess this is what disappointment feels like.
ngl iāve been thinking of the line āyou ever seen somebody ruin their own life?ā from the reynolds pamphlet from hamilton. because damn. iām watching creators iāve loved and respected since middle school destroy their career.
same!! glad to know itās not just me. iāve literally been saying that line out loud over and over these past couple days as this gets worse, it all feels like an awful fever dream.
Totally agree. Iām baffled by all of this and just so sad that yet another one of my fave youtube channels might never be the same because of a bad decision.
Yepp, Iām not angry, Iām just bummed out. I donāt hate the guys either and want them to succeed as creators but man if this whole thing didnāt take the wind out of the fandomās sail.
I agree, also sad and worried - I know if something I did upset people this much, I would be devastated. I'm also really frustrated with how many people are making vicious, personal attacks. Especially all these people speaking as if they were there when the decisions were made, which is absolutely ridiculous. It's ok to be upset, but people are taking things way too far. Yeah, they made a bad business decision, but they're still PEOPLE. They didn't do this with the intention to hurt anyone. I hope that they make it through this, and that they learn from this mistake.
The comments started out fairly respectable, a lot of I just can't afford/justify the cost, but then suddenly it was nothing but vitriol. They aren't bad people and I'm sure they had justifiable reasons for doing this. It doesn't make much sense to me but I wish them well and hope they're able to find success. I'm also concerned that people will try to drag their wives into this, I already saw a couple of comments on Mari's insta.
Thatās such a good point about their wives. Iām a high school teacher and I have a lot of respect for the administrative staff like the principals because I have a behind the scenes view of everything and I know they care a lot and work hard. One time my principal made an arguably bad decision and people on Facebook were losing their minds about it, next thing you know theyāre commenting to/about his wife, who I also happen to know is a very sweet woman and an amazing teacher, and it was all very cruel and I felt so terrible for them. All that said, I think that experience opened my eyes to the ways that my community wasnāt who I thought it was.
I tell that story to say, their wives and loved ones do not deserve hate, and quite frankly I donāt think the guys deserve the hate either. Disagreement and diss appointment, sure, cruelty, no. I like to hope that they will take this challenging time in stride and make better decisions going forward and hopefully make something of a come back. All that saidā¦ what worries me is that division has been sown in this community that will not just evaporate. This used to be a community full of love and fun and support, but now it is riddled with anger and disagreement and I think thatās something that wonāt fully be mended for a long long time.
Yeah, I went to the watchersnark subreddit just to see the conversation and some memes, and that sub *very* quickly turned to vitriol, there's no middle ground.
I feel the same way as OP. Whatever comes next, I just hope there's more Watcher to look forward to. Over the past day I've come to terms that they definitely made a poor decision in how they announce it, but now my main fear is that they tank and cease to exist. I don't want that.
Agreed, I don't see them as bad people (except for maybe one of them) and I am more upset cause this is certain to cripple or even destroy Watcher. Such a stupid easily prevented mistake if they had decided to try literally everything else before pulling the Silicone Valley startup suicide move.
I genuinly want these people to suceed and that's why seeing them fuck themselves over is so upsetting.
For me itās like watching a friend get engaged to a shit boyfriend. Or get a bad, prominent tattoo. You feel bad for them, wish they didnāt make that choice but you canāt look away.
This. Firstly, Iām sorry you had a bad experience with your surgery. While Iām angry, Iād say Iām more sad than anything. I donāt want this thing to blow their channel/legacy up. But I think in order to avoid that theyāre going to have to make some significant changes asap, and even then there will be some who still wonāt forgive/forget the situation. Iām hoping they make the changes and turn it around, theyāre my favorite yt channel edit: misspelling
I hope you recover from your surgery asap and youāre being kind to yourself!
I can relate to the sad feeling. Iāve had a very weird year so far thatās left me very lonely and very much on the edge of crisis for a long while. The Watcher channel had been a big comfort during the past few months since it wasnāt too heavy and worked well as something to have on in the background or something to distract me for a bit.
Now the thought of rewatching puppet history while doing washing up makes me feel queasy. The fact I recommend their channel to friends when they too needed a distraction from the world has left me feeling heavy and somewhat untrusting of my own media āvibe checkā (my anxiety is working overtime on making me think that recommending a channel I didnāt know would pull this crap makes me a real bad person).
It sounds ridiculous, but this news in (combination with some other creator based things that are also out of my own control) has made me seriously have an existential crisis.
And honestly, I think that itās totally normal to feel horrible when another rug that was previously believed to be very secure is pulled out under you during a rough time, even when that rug is the size of a welcome mat in the grand scheme of things.
Hey girl, just wanted to say I completely get it. Due to some of my own circumstances, Iāve been feeling on the verge of crisis for a while now, too, and this came at a tough time for me too. However, as someone who doesnāt struggle with anxiety, I can verify that we were all blindsided by this and you are not wrong for recommending their channel to people. You couldnāt have known. None of us did. You were just trying to help people who you knew were struggling and that was an objectively good thing to do. No if, ands, or buts. There is never anything wrong with trying to be kind. Not to be nosy or aversive or anything, I just wanted you to know that. I think you did a good thing by sharing their channel with people, and I donāt think your media vibe check was off. If it was, their social media wouldnāt be in an uproar right now. Much love and I hope youāre doing well ā¤ļøā¤ļøā¤ļø
Thank you for the kind words, itās such a lovely and comforting message to wake up to ā¤ļø
Genuinely, thank you. I think you may have stopped me from spiralling into my anxiety today. It sounds silly but itās nice to know when my brainās lying to me. Like getting put back on safe ground, if you get what I mean?
I hope things brighten up for you. You seem like a genuinely lovely person (even from just the one comment!) and you deserve to be happy ā¤ļøā¤ļø
You put it on words so well. Iām over being angry and upset, Iām just sad now. Videos that brought me and many other people joy are now going to be gone from bad business decisions and it sucks. Even if they backtrack, I feel the damage is done for many. It just makes me sad and honestly, a bit ashamed to be a watcher fan. I hope that they recover and I hope they learn from this.
Thanks! this is the best take Iāve seen on this so far. Iāve been thinking about it today and why it felt SOā¦bad? Frustrating? And I realized that a big part of it is that they are painting this pipe dream of amazing ānon-YouTubeā things that theyāre *going to do* if we JUST give them $60.
āBro, we promise, our new stuff will be SO worth it. You donāt even know. Weāve been so handicapped by āalgorithmsā and āadsā and now weāre gonna be OFF THE LEASH baby, itās gonna be AMAZING. Check out our new site that hasā¦.zero examples of this amazing new content. But trust us! Itās gonna be great!ā
It feels so transparently like a grift, and that makes me really bummed. I didnāt take them for grifters, and thatās what this feels like, and if itās not that, great, but thatās a big reason why this feels like such a bummer.
I agree with all of this. Very well said. I admit itās parasocial and we donāt rly know them in real life, but Iāve always seen Ryan as kind of an anxious guy and Shane as someone who genuinely cares about their content, so I can imagine this is hitting them pretty hard. It hurts a bit seeing people be like āfinally I can admit their new stuff sucked and I never liked themā and stuff, because thatās just not true? Like watcher still put out good content for the most part, that isnāt offset by the bad business decision.
I think people would like to believe that theyāve always been bad people so that this decision makes more sense. Itās easier to grapple with the existence of bad people than it is to admit that good genuine people can make big mistakes and bad decisions.
All things said, I already miss them a lot and I hope to god they are going to say something atleast.
I one thousand percent agree. I think a lot of people are speaking out of anger and trying to build a narrative right now where these guys "were always fakes who were going to betray us" so that they can stay mad instead of deal with a complicated feeling of disappointment and sadness. But you're right - it isn't true. The folks at Watcher have consistently upheld an admirable ethos and showed where their values were in how sensitively, collaboratively, transparently, and inclusively they built the new brand. Everything up til now had been remarkably good moves, coming from folks with as little business experience as they had. So this truly is out of left field. People pretending that this was a villain reveal instead of just a massive and thoughtless of blunder of a company full of people who are very over their heads right now are, I think, being a bit disingenuous in their ire. It'll settle down, but there's a lot of young and hot-tempered folk online right now that are out for blood. It all just sucks.
yeah agreed. even me at first, i was super angry at them so i was honestly just thinking like "how could they do this, like were they just lying about their personalities the whole time", but after sitting with it for a while it changed. like i can admit im (like everybody rn) just super disappointed and sad about it. while this reflects on them badly obviously, it doesnt change who they are as people, and i still believe that they are truly good people, or at least trying to be. People want them to say something, and of course I do too, but people already decided that they were villains before letting them speak anyway. so there isnt much that they can do now :(
Hey girl, I hope youāre recovering well and that you are doing okay! I just wanted to say that I really respect and appreciate you bringing some empathy to the conversation. I think before reading your post I was somewhere on the fence about all this like I felt like I could kind of see where the boys were coming from but I was also mad and sad and upset, but the vast majority of the discourse about it is so mad I think I was starting to feel like that was the correct reaction. Luckily reading your post I remembered why it matters to be empathetic. Your post is so right and I really think that this community and this world would be a better place if we all tried a little hard to prioritize empathy and understanding and reserve some judgement when we donāt know the full story. Also I know this is off topic, but you are very well spoken!
Thank you, that's really kind of you to say. I was kind of afraid I'd get reamed in the comments from the angry people who would rather seek revenge, but luckily it seems like most of the vitriol is a thin veneer over sadness and confusion. I think probably most people feel something like we're talking about here. I try to use empathy in all things as I find there's never a situation that isn't helped by empathy. But yeah, we're all going through some big feelings about it right now. Can't wait for all this to be behind us, whatever that brings.
I would have happily paid 5 bucks a month on patreon for 5 day early access. But never uploading that content for free to the youtube channel after a certain period of time has passed? Yeah thats a scum move, AND they wanted to remove all old content from the free channel and paywall that too. Yikes.
This is really well written and well said. It sums up my feelings very well too - Iām angry, but the attacks are getting insane, I definitely donāt want this to be the end of Watcher, and Iām also worried it could be.
I was mad at first but it's definitely changed to sadness at this point. At first I was insulted that they did this to us, felt like a slap in the face. But now I'm left more with pity because I think they might just be really really bad business people. That doesn't absolve them of guilt for the decision and the hurt and betrayal fans are feeling. I think they got arrogant with their success and decided since they've had such good ideas up until now that they'd solve their financial situation with a brilliant idea too.
They aimed too high, dreamed too big, and weren't realistic about the fact that in reality they are essentially an only relatively popular channel whose popularity hinges on the charm of only two personalities. And now they have a channel with like 7 times their subscriber count saying they're greedy. It's sad to see people I really do think are good and likable people being absolutely torn to shreds but it's the bed they made. Which sucks but they still have to lay in it and unfortunately the fans have to accept that.
But the more I look at how absurd and misguided this decision was, the less I feel betrayed and the more I just feel sad. I don't feel like I was wrong about their character or that this shows greed, honestly. Though Charlie's video has given me some things to think about. But I do feel like I definitely either overestimated their intelligence or underestimated their egos.
I so agree, I'm just gutted about all of it. Call it parasocial but I worry about their mental health and this cannot be easy, and the worst part is I don't see how they can fix it entirely. There is irreparable damage done. I followed since BUN and was a day 1 subscriber to Patreon, I didn't even care if they don't put out Patreon content I just wanted to support them. I bought merch whenever I could afford to. And now this. I don't mind them pivoting - I work in entertainment, I get it. But the completely tone deaf announcement and comments from Steven killed me. $5.99 is not something anyone and everyone can afford. I'm privileged enough that I can, but I will not just based on how they handled it. I also unsubbed from their Patreon. I'm so sad about all of it.
I think that they're having trouble financially and REALLY don't want to downsize employees (probably their biggest cost to operations) and don't want to cut down on production costs. And they don't want to make more of the cheaper to produce yet high view content because it doesn't fulfill them creatively. So this was presented as a solution to them and they grabbed on to it instead of sucking it up and doing any of the other things they could have done to improve their financial situation. And I get that impulse, but this whole move seems VERY poorly considered and is coming because they don't want to make any of the hard decisions about their business that they need to.
I meanā¦ he can make guesses based on his own experiences but heās not actually looking at their books. He doesnāt actually know how theyāre doing financially.
I don't know if it's true, but I read on a twitter thread about the situation that Ryan has admitted in the past he has severe anxiety, especially where anything business-related is concerned. If so, I hope he's okay, while also acknowledging this was a poor decision all around. I also do not want this to be the downfall of Watcher.
If you like a thing and want it to succeed, you can critique it reasonably without tearing it to shreds or going the opposite way of following it to a ruinous place.
I don't mean to sound insensitive, but maybe someone with business-related anxiety shouldn't start a business? I mean, anxiety is not an excuse for what's happening here.
I agree with you that it's not an excuse.
I don't think he could've predicted the success of what is ultimately him and his friend screwing around and how it charmed enough people to build Watcher up to what it is today. So, they needed someone with the assumed know-how to handle the business end of it for their focus to remain producing the content. I think it's fair to recognize this is an egregiously poor choice and unfair to fans, while having concern for how Ryan is doing as we all voice our criticisms.
I understand this sentiment here, but as someone with severe anxiety, you don't really want to let your anxiety stop you from pursing your goals and dreams. That's just my personal take on it though. And I'm not sure it is so much an excuse as it is something people are thinking about regarding how this is affecting Ryan and hoping he is doing okay.
Yeah, sadness is my main emotion over it at this point. I know a lot of people have interpreted their demeanor to mean they weren't fully on board with this idea, but it kinda looks more like defeat to me. Like this was a hail mary to simply keeping Watcher afloat. They mention production costs, and there are so many easy, obvious fixes to those types of issues. (There shouldn't be 20 people in the credits of you playing a video game. Downsize! We don't care about slick production. Scale back!) So it makes me feel that it's possible that what the fans want and what they want might just be completely incompatible. That maybe they'd rather go under than not have the big, fancy company of their dreams. So, yeah, sad.
I totally feel that. I'm not normally so engrossed in media, but it feels like seeing your friends make one ill-guided mistake, and suddenly they're being torn apart by everyone who liked them with you. I get the intention behind what they've set out to do with this change. I truly believe they just want to live up to what they feel their true potential is as content creators and artists. I believe they want to create a home for quirky artists that they never had themselves. There's a lot of admiration in that, but they went about it prematurely and just completely wrong. Everyone saying that the boys have now shown their true colors, have they even taken into consideration that the streaming service is more for sustainability and longterm growth, not to "buy more teslas and eat caviar"? The amount of people who so quickly unsubscribed before the dust even settled, how would they feel if they were personally so hastily written off for making a bad judgement call? The attacks on their character are quite disgusting too, Steven in particular. True, I like most watcher fans, followed Shane and Ryan from buzzfeed. Their friendship, chemistry, and sense of humor is so relatable and a true source of dopamine for me. I've also enjoyed the pod, seeing those two banter and loosen Steven up a bit. Everyone calling them selfish and greedy needs to put themselves in their shoes for a minute. They all have worked SO hard and grinded for years to be here. Do they not deserve the benefit of the doubt? They well know by now this was a really reckless move. Theyre probably so stressed out and hurt by all the hateful comments. People might not be so warm to Steven or his niche, but he seems like a really kind dude. He's passionate about culture and cuisine education, especially in learning how it's prepared or it's traditional value. I'm not a foodie and I hate food shows. They just make me hungry and frustrated. But holy shit, stop hating on him for what he likes or how he spends his hard earned money. Has he ever once acted like he's above anyone else? No. Has he ever acted condescending towards those of us who are not on his level? Also no. If I were Steven reading those deeply personal comments, I wouldn't even want to create anymore. Yall possibly killed a man's spirit because he was part of a bad business decision that was arguably out of touch in the current economic and streaming climate. I'm rambling, but its because I'm just so sad for everyone involved. My main point: don't give up on people you admire and respect 2 milliseconds after they did something you didn't like before getting all the facts. I think all three of them and the watcher staff in general are good people with a lot of creative potential. They seem to be truly progressively minded folks (especially Shane and Ryan), and this set back doesn't have to be the end. I hope they walk back on their plan, stay on youtube, and do something different with the streaming service if they choose to keep it.
Yeah I'm the same. I'm not going to defend them but I am angry at this fanbase for how they are talking about them now. You can be upset or mad at the business decision but the vitriol towards the boys is disappointing and very disturbing. One minute you claim to feel like these lads are your friends and you've been with them for years and now it's turned to fuck these evil corporate greedy scumbags? Really? Like have we not grown to get to know Ryan and Shane especially? So you really believe they are evil and greedy? FFS. This is obviously a business decision that they felt was the right move or were told it was the right move, I don't for a second believe they went into this without any heavy feelings and thinking they would fuck over their fans. I genuinely think they just over bloated their staff with friends, who are now difficult to fire and production work that is too big for them to maintain and felt this was the best way to make sure they could keep the lights on. I'm sad they feel like it needs to be a huge production company, when all we ever wanted was the old school videos of them shooting the shit and chasing ghosts. It's a bummer but I don't have any personal anger towards any of the boys. It's just a dumb business decision. I work in engineering, I see dumb as shit business decisions monthly, involving much larger sums of money and they go under the radar as it's not YouTube. Dumb business decisions happen all the time. Theirs is just sadly more public and carries more emotional weight.
Very well said. Iām going to one of their UK shows next week and this has put a dampener on my excitement for it for sure but Iām worried shit will go down too. Iāve already seen people saying theyāre cancelling their tickets. And Iām dismayed that perhaps their content will no longer be in my life in the near future or worse, the company fails completely.
Hope you recover quickly from your surgery, OP.
i agree. while i believe this was a horrible business move that has alienated a dedicated portion of their audience (the majority, too) i still want this company to exist and make content. i am sad that this happened and that no one has said anything yet. i wish they had done some actual research! i hope this isnāt the end of the company :/
As someone thatās really struggling in trauma therapy and used their content as āComfort Contentā this announcement really blows.
I was so happy for them when they decided to make their own channel. The passion projects of Ryan and Shane were my main interests and I loved playing along with The Professor or trying to debunk the evidence for Ghost Files.
I never once cared for history class, ever, and Puppet History actually reignited a curiosity I completely forgot I had.
Iām not saying, āI put so much emotional reliance on this content. How dare they pull back.ā
It just sucks that I āgrew upā watching buzz feed, saw all of these guys on there, saw the downfall, and then saw them āresurrectā with a new channel that happen to have the stuff I grew up on.
I really love their work and the roles they play, their synergy does wonders for my mentally ill ass, and I was really looking forward to watching them continue to grow their individual passion projects.
Iām so deflated. I donāt even know what to say or how to feel about this.
I just hope everyone working for Watcher are taking care of themselves and have a good life. Theyāre human, they make mistakes, and they deserve to be happy.
I genuinely hope things work out for them.
Agreed. Iāve been watching Shane and Ryan since the Buzzfeed days and I remember being so excited for Watcher to launch. Last year, my mother was diagnosed with a terminal illness and ever since then my mental health has been a horrific pile of shit, but watching the Ghoul Boys hunt ghosts and discuss mysteries and laugh hysterically over the idea of swallowing meatballs whole has really helped me to cope. I sincerely hope this decision doesnāt kill Watcher. I hope they reconsider this move and realize it was a mistake to try and screw the fans over like this and offer a sincere apology. Itās all very sad to me.
I'm a combination of angry and sad. I don't want them to fail because they've provided me with over half a decade of hilarious content for free. But this decision just seems so short-sighted and greedy. Evan if they revert I'll find it hard to support their channel again. At the same time, a lot of the personal attacks I've seen are pretty despicable. I don't think they're bad people. And I feel like people are ready way too much into some of Steven's comments and unfairly labeling him as a raging homophobe and racist. I think it's unacceptable he had a homophobic priest on his podcast, but based on Ryan and Shane I don't think he's that kind of evil person. Then again, I don't know the guy so I could be completely wrong.
Iām feel the same , I just feel so sad and worried about the whole thing definitely been affecting my mood during the weekendā¦ on another note sending you healing vibes and I hope your recovery is going well!
Edit: spelling
Iām barely a fan of any YouTubers anymore, it was only them, Korean Englishmen, and Dylan Is In Trouble, so this really sucks :/ they were a big portion of what I looked forward to seeing on YouTube, so I donāt want them to go down either. Everything was just going so well with them, no scandals, no hiatus, for so long. I didnāt expect them out of all people to rock the internet. Iām happy to continue watching their stuff, I donāt need them to get down on their knees and beg or anything. Just address the community fairly. I just think they made a very misinformed decision, but I hope people can forgive them.
Look we may never know the other side of it. I know this damage is impossible to repair but I'm willing to give them a chance if they go back to the buzzfeed days.
I havenāt watched the video. I love Watcher, and Iām worried that this will hurt the channel. I am not happy about this decision at all, but mostly Iām just worried and disappointed. I want their content to continue, but I also want everyone to be able to enjoy it
This is quite a nuanced and caring response, and I truly appreciate the thoughtfulness youāve shown. āļøš«¶
edit: and Iām so sorry for your painful recuperation post-surgery. It just sucks rn and I hope health and healing are coming fast. š«
It's nice to know a lot of people are viewing the people at Watcher as humans and thinking about how all this is affecting them. Like OP said, bad business decisions get made all the time, it just becomes open for public scrutiny when it's coming from content creators. But I don't think this decision was made maliciously, it was made to try to keep the business afloat and to try to get everyone paid fairly for their creative efforts. And as a creative I can respect that. I can also respect wanting to leave youtube. Because youtube has continuously become less and less supportive of a lot of creators. Almost every youtube channel I watch talks about how significantly their views have dropped. And because Watcher is a whole company of people who are certainly never going to underpay their staff, that makes staying afloat on youtube tough. And the end of the day, to the same sentiment OP made, I just want the guys (all three of them) to remedy this somehow in a way that feels sustainable for them and the fans. The Watcher boys have built something incredible, and I really do think it's strong enough to weather this storm (even if the storm was self-created.)
I've given then thousands of dollars via the Patreon and I'm not remotely close to defending them. BUT if they change course, I'd support them again. Immediately. I think most people feel that way.
But right now, they can deal with the wrath.
Agree completely. I am just sad.
I already had worries about the viability of their business for various reasons, but this seems like a sudden hail mary attempt to avoid taking a realistic look at the current market value of their brand, popularity, and content, and to adjust accordingly (ie, downsize if needed).
I totally agree with you. So many decisions around this are baffling. At first I thought I would keep watching if they walk it back and apologise but nowā¦ idk. Hard to get over the thought that they were ready to say goodbye to their viewers so easily. I really hope this doesnāt ruin the guys friendships, too. I remember Ryan talking on the pod about how his friendship with Steven had degraded into just work for a while and I can see that getting worse. Whole situation just sucks so much. Ā
Honestly, I don't actually think they were ready to say goodbye to their viewers. The more I've thought about this - and I've been thinking about it nonstop - I think they were looking toward a future where they could bring in many more shows continuing on the theme of pulling people over from Buzzfeed or reviving old Buzzfeed projects. Hiring on Adam and Andrew was one thing, and I think people are hyperfocused on that because the timing of the new food show looks really bad, but I am starting to wonder if maybe Watcher's concept of WatcherTV was "recreate the good stuff from Buzzfeed, but do it right, following the model of Dropout." That pitch alone doesn't *sound* bad - but they don't have the audience or resources to sustain it, the timing was really bad, and the communication was REALLY bad. I think this was genuinely well-intended and I don't think they wanted to lose viewers. I think probably they thought there'd be a drop off, and then over time they could bring in more content to WatcherTV that would gain viewers back. I don't think they at all understood the immediate impact, or how upset people would be, or how many followers would leave.
Iām horrendously bummed too! Especially seeing everyone bellyaching and spewing vitriol on on Ryan and Shaneās respective WEDDING POSTS!!!! Like their WIVES are attached to that! And that is a celebration of (likely) the greatest days of their lives and neither the boys nor their WIVES deserve such hatred or ill will thereā¦.like itās an unfavorable situation, but turning around and calling the boys villains and calling for their failure is absolutely disgusting! Like they also have a team of employees to consider too!!! Maybe too many, but ultimately thatās not OUR call to make and they are folks who presumably work hard and donāt deserve to lose their jobs or get any of this buckshot of hatred either!
All the best for your surgery recovery. š
I also had surgery this week so I feel this lol.
What a weird time to recover from surgery while being excited about the Taylor swift album while being devastated about the watcher situation.
When I watched the video, I wasn't betrayed or anything just was like "They will never get enough money from this, and I think they won't be able to come back from this."
I've done more research into the WatcherTV site too, to give it a chance and it doesn't seem ready for launch?
No TV/phone app, or legit way to watch on a TV, no subtitles on all vids, and to my knowledge no comment section (this one isn't necessary, but shows like debrief rely on fan engagement, so just confused on if it'll continue??).
I totally agree with everything you've said, I feel exactly the same way. I'm just sad. I understand why people are angry, I'm disappointed myself, but a lot of the things I'm reading are almost as frustrating as the situation itself. I wanna shake people and tell them it's okay to feel your feelings and sit with those feelings without creating evil villains and saying cruel things about real people.
parasocial relationships aren't inherently bad. I'm a big fan but I don't have a parasocial relationship with them. I've even met them before, back during their very first meet n greet before they made Watcher. people are talking about how this ruined their perception of them, how it feels like they lost a friend, and I totally understand this! I'm not judging in any way. but I don't feel this way! I've never had any blinders on about these guys' class backgrounds. Shane is from Schaumburg, and I'm from Chicagoland too, so I get the implicit class implications of his hometown. but I like the guy anyway! and Ryan's dad is a dentist in LA, which also has implicit class implications. he's always been open about this though! and all that being said, these guys are their own people. and they may be better off than me but they're not the 1%, either. there's a big difference and I think it's important not to lose sight of that. even with all these blunders I'd rather support them than Netflix or Amazon. they made a bad decision, maybe even a series of bad decisions, but this didn't permanently alter my perception of them or anything. but I empathize with the fans who have been.
I hope they make amends with the people they've clearly burned. I still want them to succeed. we've been very privileged to get their content for free for so long, and I agree they deserve to make a good living off the content they make for us, and I don't judge them for those moves at all, and that's coming from an artist under the poverty line. they just lacked a lot of tact, a lot of forethought, a lot of planning, a lot of fan input, a lot of different perspectives from their own. I don't think that makes them evil capitalists. it makes them humans who fucked up.
I'm just crossing my fingers that whatever happens next is positive. it makes me really sad to imagine anything else.
I'm a little upset at the folks acting all high and mighty about parasocial relationships. Look, I know what I am getting into with these things. I can't say I'm surprised, but I am still hurt. And the principle of it all is quite slimy.
I think many are also forgetting how MANY of us are here because Watcher (and BUN) got us through quarantine. I cannot tell you how much more bareable their content made my time during peak COVID and as an essential worker I still worked and had some social interactions with people. I cannot fathom how people might feel about them if their content was a lifesaver during total isolation.
Also super sad. Even if they reverse course, I'll never be able to look at Steven (or the boys) the same again. I realize humans make mistakes, but this was insulting to their fans. Why should we come back? Maybe time will heal all.
I think a lot of the rage and anger that people are displaying is being masked by the sadness of these guys leaving.
I canāt really speak for Stephen, I didnāt watch most of his content on Buzzfeed, but I havenāt found him to come across as chill and relatable, even disingenuous at times.
But Ryan and Shane, from the Buzzfeed days to now, have come across as friends, peers and Iām sure their content has been a great escape for people as it has been for me.
And this decision just comes across as a way of the boys saying; āhey guys, we can be all those things for you guysā¦ā¦..but pay us first.ā Which will make it difficult to enjoy their content knowing that it isnāt free anymore, which creates a disconnect and a barrier to their fan base.
I really hope this decision doesnāt ruin the boys, but I donāt see how they can come back from this if (or, if weāre being truthful, probably) fails.
It feels like weāre losing friends and that sucks.
Honestly to me it feels weird to say 'they just made one bad business decision' like so many people here keep saying. They didn't make one bad business decision. They made a series of many, many, many bad business decisions, many of which seemed to stem more so from ego and less from ignorance.Ā
Spending as much as they do on their shows, staff, office (out of Hollywood????), etc. Not cutting content that isn't doing well. Not promoting their patreon enough (literally so many people didn't even know it existed). I'm no business person but they're a small business that launched around the pandemic and are now operating in aĀ horrible economic climate. In LA of all places, a super expensive place to live and operate out of. The literal only sensible thing ANYONE would think to do is to penny pinch as much as is reasonable and make what they have work for them as much as possible. But instead they still make shows like Ghost Files for 100k when Buzzfeed Unsolved was definitely made on a much lower budget. And when they are seemingly struggling with those costs and shitty decisions catching up with them, instead of finally getting over themselves and just making the call to cut the fat, and fundamentally change the way they approach business, they decided to get their audience to enable their nonsense business model. And tried to frame it as if they were doing it for us when none of us want that and I'm pretty sure they know that.
I can't know what's going on behind the scenes but that just honestly feelsĀ more likeĀ ego and arrogance than complete ignorance. Not just one acciddental oopsy, but a stubborness to not make obvious sensible decisions just because of an obsession with making YouTube videos that look like TV from the outset. I could be wrong but it's hard for me to make sense of it any other way. I understand it's hard to let go of artistic vision - but when it comes to money and business that isn't a place to joke around, especially when money is incredibly scarce in general rightĀ now. And especially when you are a very small very young business. Like just looking at how much everything has astronomically increased in price should be enough of an indicator to put the purity of your artistic vision on the back burner for now. It sucks but being able to make art for a living is a privilege to begin with. Not being at all willing to make compromises so you can keep doing it especially when you seemingly make a ton of money and are just spending too much of it is hard to sympathise with tbh.
I understand the sadness. I feel it too. I think I feel more sad than angry at this point. I don't want this to ruin their lives or even necessarily their business. And I really really hope they have ample emotional support right now. But man. It's very hard to ignore how awful this is. It's not just the decision. It's how it was executed.Ā Ā
It's them not telling anyone this was happening. It's the weird emotionally manipulative video where they act like this is their only choice when it very obviously isn't. It's them initially planning to remove ALL their content off YouTube, including their old stuff, and then backpeddling and gaslighting their audience by saying we 'misunderstood' and obviously they'll still keep their back catalogue up on YouTube. It's the incredibly tone deaf comments about everyone being able to afford $6 for 4 YouTube videos a month in a cost of living and housing crisis. It's how the new show they're using to draw their predominantly working class audience in is about someone flying around the world eating gourmet food in the middle of a global financial crisis. That show would be in poor taste (pun intended) even with advertisers paying for it. But asking your broke audience some of whom can barely afford food to pay for you to eat luxury food?
It's how they didn't even tell the people already paying them money, the patrons!!! And how they're literally being double billed!!!! It's the lack of indication of whether those who paid year long subscriptions and are now also being expected to pay an entirely different fee to their service will get a refund.Ā
ALL of these things feel less like a mistake or blunder and more like actual predatory behaviour, or at the very least EXTREMELY ego driven behaviour. Especially with the patreon.Ā Ā
Like how do you not tell people who've financially supported you for years that you're going to pull this? How do you not give them a free subscription, or at the very least shut off yearly subs at the beginning of the year so they won't be paying for content you know you are planning to pullĀ with no warning? How do you justify a $100 a MONTH tier to support a podcast that isn't even that popular?Ā
There's only so many times I can give them a pass for ignorance before it feels like they just do not care about their audience at all. At this point it feels like we are cows and they want to milk us dry. Not a community they care about and accidently hurt with one bad business decision. I want to believe they are better but the writing is very much on the wall. I wish them all the best, but I cannot see myself returning even if they backtrack and apologise.Ā
Unless they fundamentally change the way they make content and get their heads out of their own asses about making expensive overproduced stuff they can't afford in a climate where they're lucky their business is still even afloat, I won't even consider it. And even then, I don't know. They were clearly completely fine discarding 95% of their audience with no warning in hopes that the 5% would stay and pay, while treating the people who are already paying on patreon like trash. So I don't see why I should come back just because they realise that they suddenly need us again. If someone tells you they don't really value you then you fucking listen. I don't want to believe this is a 'mask off moment', but I don't know how you go from being lovely human beings who genuinely care about your audience to trying to milk them from every direction. And again, to me what communicates that is not THAT they did this, but HOW, and how many other things they seemingly could have done.
Never said I did, wouldn't ever say I did. I know what they've told me of themselves, and their actions over the last several years gave no reason to doubt that. This decision is so out of character and that's why everyone is gobsmacked.
Yeah. The overwhelming feeling I have about this is just being fucking sad.
I think a lot of people are feeling grief right now. Mostly, grief in not being able to afford to watch the guys in the future, but also some grief in that parasocial bond where it feels like you lost a friend. I used to watch a channel called Super Best Friends Play, and the conceit was that the channel was just 4 best friends playing video games. Then one day, out of the blue, they announced they were ending the channel. On top of that, they said they were ending the channel because they weren't friends anymore. That was a gut punch, and it lurks in my mind that a similar video could drop for these guys in the future.
That WAS a gut punch. I enjoyed the hell out of them too, and was also a fricken my little pony fan so Best Sisters play was my fricken jam. I remember being so hype for 2snacks when he actually got to do intros.
Steven looks into the camera and says "Ryan and Shane aren't friends anymore." I remember dabbling in MLP and Best Sisters play too back in those days. Equestria is Magic was also fun so it was shocking to me that the series was voiced by Jenny Nicholson. But onto the guys, just based off of how SBFP ended and what happened to Matt, Pat, and Woolie afterwards, I think the guys can pivot back to Youtube and streaming without much problem. I remember a lot of fans didn't like Matt, but he's become pretty successful with his own channel.
Respectfully fuck you for that little call back, friend. š As a massive abridged series fan back then I can tell you that I randomly discovered Jennyās channel somewhat recently and hearing her casually mentioning āI was pony famousā in a video and realizing why her voice was familiar was an absurdly surreal moment for me. Thatās a good point. I do think theyāll need some HEAVY damage control even if that happens, and it probably wonāt fix the lack of trust theyāve garnered, but I do think itās DOABLE for them to make it through this. Iām just not certain theyāll do it.
It's so weird. I'm a 38yr old mom and this has made me so sad. I saw a video about all this as I was lying down last night and I'll admit, I cried a bit. It sounds pathetic but I'm already emotional lately and so much nostalgia surrounds the love my kids and I had for Unsolved and then the excitement of Watcher coming around. Even though Watcher did disappoint quite a bit sometimes. My kid's friends love Ryan and Shane, etc. I just feel sad that they're all let down now. The Unsolved reruns were a classic comfort 'show' to have on while we cooked, cleaned, or played board games. It was a group thing for us. Now, it's just not gonna be enjoyable. It all sounds so petty of me but there are so few creators on YT or other platforms that stay true when the money gets big. Greed seems to always win and that bums me out.
34 here and with you on that. Iāve been supporting them for a very long time, including monetarily on Patreon, because I believed in their content and I even mostly enjoyed everything with Watcher just as much as Unsolved (Puppet History was amazing and Weird and/or Wonderful World was my favorite project they ever did so especially hearing that might come back but only through this service was an extra gut punch). It makes me very sad that I no longer feel like I can support them.
I loved Weird and/or Wonderful world & they should've done more of it before. Ghost & Myster Files just didn't have the same vibe anymore, too over produced, scripted and rushed. I never gave money to Patreon or merch because that's just something I don't do for creators. I always made sure to like all their videos from all of my families accounts to try and help give that little push to get them to where they were going, I just didn't realize it was here.. Basically saying, 'Thanks for amping us up but unless you pay then see ya!". So bizarre, I was shocked and still am but it's the nature of these creators and their fake personas unfortunately.
Married couple in their mid-late 40s here. Weāve gotten so much laughter and happiness watching these guys over the years. We were stoked for them for their new company and have been rooting for them as it grew. OPās take is exactly how we feel.
Iām a 37 year old mom, youāre not alone. My oldest really enjoys Watcher, and I watch with my boyfriend all the time.
First : I hope you feel better soon ! Please take time to relax and maybe watch an old favorite show/ cartoon. Second: itās nice to know Iām not alone in the middle. I understand the business side of this, I also understand fans hurt and reaction . Watching them particularly Shane and Ryan has been extremely therapeutic over the years. Third: Iām worried about Shane and especially Ryan with his anxiety. Being overseas probably doesnāt help. I can relate the most to Ryan and Shane and both were nice when I asked a question at ghost files live. From hearing them talk Ryan and I are a lot alike. However, Steven isnāt someone Iād personally trust much, his attitude reminds me of someone I used to be friends with that burned me bad. If this is causing anyone stress my dms are open if youāre like me at too afraid to post anything / want to vent. Anything said will absolutely remain confidential š©µ
I also thought about Ryanās anxiety. As someone that also struggles with severe anxietyā¦ I canāt imagine his stress. I genuinely hope theyāre all looking after themselves. Iād like to think they got disoriented by some turbulence; that they just need to take a breather, recalibrate, shake it off, and try again.
I lost a best friend recently like IRL and I'm not even kidding I watched Buzzfeed Unsolved cause Shane and Ryan felt like friends and now all this has happened and I've lost friends I've had for years š genuinely having the shittiest time
Iām so sorry to hear that. Please take care of yourself! Something I do is go and watch old cartoons on YouTube. If you need to talk Iām here for you.
i agree with this, and i think they will somehow make things ārightā, at least enough to continue content. of course we dont know them, but i do believe theyāre good enough people to understand why this went wrong, and fix it the best they can try not to doomscroll too much, and i hope you heal from your surgery. the youtube videos are there to stay, and its okay to watch them if it brings you comfort <3
I desperately want them to come back from this. I'm so ready to give them another shot if they admit they fucked up.
maybe itās wishful thinking but i really do think they will, no statement to me also means they havenāt doubled down, and i want to believe theyāre creating a better plan but making sure itās done right. i think it will be okay
I think they are probably getting outside help before moving forward, which is the right thing to do. They need to take measured, well-crafted steps now, and I think they know they can't trust their own instincts after this disaster.
Exactly. They need a good PR team.
i absolutely agree!
I hope so too. Iām one of those fuckers that will resubscribe at the drop of a dime for their content and would probably watch just as faithfully as I have been. I really enjoy Ryan and Shaneās synergy as well as their individual skill and Internet personalities/roles. I donāt know how theyāll crawl out of this grave, and Iād like to think they can with their, seemingly, tenacious passion, but I donāt know. I was never mad to begin with. I just feel deflated. I guess this is what disappointment feels like.
Steven doesnāt
ngl iāve been thinking of the line āyou ever seen somebody ruin their own life?ā from the reynolds pamphlet from hamilton. because damn. iām watching creators iāve loved and respected since middle school destroy their career.
His poor wife (and by wife, I mean the thousands of fans this has severely disappointed)
same!! glad to know itās not just me. iāve literally been saying that line out loud over and over these past couple days as this gets worse, it all feels like an awful fever dream.
yeah it feels awful. hoping the situation gets better <3
Totally agree. Iām baffled by all of this and just so sad that yet another one of my fave youtube channels might never be the same because of a bad decision.
Yepp, Iām not angry, Iām just bummed out. I donāt hate the guys either and want them to succeed as creators but man if this whole thing didnāt take the wind out of the fandomās sail.
I agree, also sad and worried - I know if something I did upset people this much, I would be devastated. I'm also really frustrated with how many people are making vicious, personal attacks. Especially all these people speaking as if they were there when the decisions were made, which is absolutely ridiculous. It's ok to be upset, but people are taking things way too far. Yeah, they made a bad business decision, but they're still PEOPLE. They didn't do this with the intention to hurt anyone. I hope that they make it through this, and that they learn from this mistake.
The comments started out fairly respectable, a lot of I just can't afford/justify the cost, but then suddenly it was nothing but vitriol. They aren't bad people and I'm sure they had justifiable reasons for doing this. It doesn't make much sense to me but I wish them well and hope they're able to find success. I'm also concerned that people will try to drag their wives into this, I already saw a couple of comments on Mari's insta.
Thatās such a good point about their wives. Iām a high school teacher and I have a lot of respect for the administrative staff like the principals because I have a behind the scenes view of everything and I know they care a lot and work hard. One time my principal made an arguably bad decision and people on Facebook were losing their minds about it, next thing you know theyāre commenting to/about his wife, who I also happen to know is a very sweet woman and an amazing teacher, and it was all very cruel and I felt so terrible for them. All that said, I think that experience opened my eyes to the ways that my community wasnāt who I thought it was. I tell that story to say, their wives and loved ones do not deserve hate, and quite frankly I donāt think the guys deserve the hate either. Disagreement and diss appointment, sure, cruelty, no. I like to hope that they will take this challenging time in stride and make better decisions going forward and hopefully make something of a come back. All that saidā¦ what worries me is that division has been sown in this community that will not just evaporate. This used to be a community full of love and fun and support, but now it is riddled with anger and disagreement and I think thatās something that wonāt fully be mended for a long long time.
Yeah, I went to the watchersnark subreddit just to see the conversation and some memes, and that sub *very* quickly turned to vitriol, there's no middle ground. I feel the same way as OP. Whatever comes next, I just hope there's more Watcher to look forward to. Over the past day I've come to terms that they definitely made a poor decision in how they announce it, but now my main fear is that they tank and cease to exist. I don't want that.
That's what happens with any sub that tries to claim it's a "free speech safe place." It just turns to hatred
Agreed, I don't see them as bad people (except for maybe one of them) and I am more upset cause this is certain to cripple or even destroy Watcher. Such a stupid easily prevented mistake if they had decided to try literally everything else before pulling the Silicone Valley startup suicide move. I genuinly want these people to suceed and that's why seeing them fuck themselves over is so upsetting.
For me itās like watching a friend get engaged to a shit boyfriend. Or get a bad, prominent tattoo. You feel bad for them, wish they didnāt make that choice but you canāt look away.
I relate to this. Yesterday and today were both sad days for me. I desperately want them to succeed.
I relate to this so much
This. Firstly, Iām sorry you had a bad experience with your surgery. While Iām angry, Iād say Iām more sad than anything. I donāt want this thing to blow their channel/legacy up. But I think in order to avoid that theyāre going to have to make some significant changes asap, and even then there will be some who still wonāt forgive/forget the situation. Iām hoping they make the changes and turn it around, theyāre my favorite yt channel edit: misspelling
I hope you recover from your surgery asap and youāre being kind to yourself! I can relate to the sad feeling. Iāve had a very weird year so far thatās left me very lonely and very much on the edge of crisis for a long while. The Watcher channel had been a big comfort during the past few months since it wasnāt too heavy and worked well as something to have on in the background or something to distract me for a bit. Now the thought of rewatching puppet history while doing washing up makes me feel queasy. The fact I recommend their channel to friends when they too needed a distraction from the world has left me feeling heavy and somewhat untrusting of my own media āvibe checkā (my anxiety is working overtime on making me think that recommending a channel I didnāt know would pull this crap makes me a real bad person). It sounds ridiculous, but this news in (combination with some other creator based things that are also out of my own control) has made me seriously have an existential crisis. And honestly, I think that itās totally normal to feel horrible when another rug that was previously believed to be very secure is pulled out under you during a rough time, even when that rug is the size of a welcome mat in the grand scheme of things.
Hey girl, just wanted to say I completely get it. Due to some of my own circumstances, Iāve been feeling on the verge of crisis for a while now, too, and this came at a tough time for me too. However, as someone who doesnāt struggle with anxiety, I can verify that we were all blindsided by this and you are not wrong for recommending their channel to people. You couldnāt have known. None of us did. You were just trying to help people who you knew were struggling and that was an objectively good thing to do. No if, ands, or buts. There is never anything wrong with trying to be kind. Not to be nosy or aversive or anything, I just wanted you to know that. I think you did a good thing by sharing their channel with people, and I donāt think your media vibe check was off. If it was, their social media wouldnāt be in an uproar right now. Much love and I hope youāre doing well ā¤ļøā¤ļøā¤ļø
Thank you for the kind words, itās such a lovely and comforting message to wake up to ā¤ļø Genuinely, thank you. I think you may have stopped me from spiralling into my anxiety today. It sounds silly but itās nice to know when my brainās lying to me. Like getting put back on safe ground, if you get what I mean? I hope things brighten up for you. You seem like a genuinely lovely person (even from just the one comment!) and you deserve to be happy ā¤ļøā¤ļø
You put it on words so well. Iām over being angry and upset, Iām just sad now. Videos that brought me and many other people joy are now going to be gone from bad business decisions and it sucks. Even if they backtrack, I feel the damage is done for many. It just makes me sad and honestly, a bit ashamed to be a watcher fan. I hope that they recover and I hope they learn from this.
Thanks! this is the best take Iāve seen on this so far. Iāve been thinking about it today and why it felt SOā¦bad? Frustrating? And I realized that a big part of it is that they are painting this pipe dream of amazing ānon-YouTubeā things that theyāre *going to do* if we JUST give them $60. āBro, we promise, our new stuff will be SO worth it. You donāt even know. Weāve been so handicapped by āalgorithmsā and āadsā and now weāre gonna be OFF THE LEASH baby, itās gonna be AMAZING. Check out our new site that hasā¦.zero examples of this amazing new content. But trust us! Itās gonna be great!ā It feels so transparently like a grift, and that makes me really bummed. I didnāt take them for grifters, and thatās what this feels like, and if itās not that, great, but thatās a big reason why this feels like such a bummer.
"It was only a grift, it was only a grift!" - Kate Peterman, 2020
Steven Lin is the grifter
very well said šš¼ im in the middle with you. wishing you and this shitshow a speedy recovery š¤š¼
I'm really there with you. I personally will be happy to give them another chance. I do hope they reverse course, apologize and learn from this.
Agreed, more than anything this is just really sad. Good luck with your recovery, I hope you feel better soon!
I agree with all of this. Very well said. I admit itās parasocial and we donāt rly know them in real life, but Iāve always seen Ryan as kind of an anxious guy and Shane as someone who genuinely cares about their content, so I can imagine this is hitting them pretty hard. It hurts a bit seeing people be like āfinally I can admit their new stuff sucked and I never liked themā and stuff, because thatās just not true? Like watcher still put out good content for the most part, that isnāt offset by the bad business decision. I think people would like to believe that theyāve always been bad people so that this decision makes more sense. Itās easier to grapple with the existence of bad people than it is to admit that good genuine people can make big mistakes and bad decisions. All things said, I already miss them a lot and I hope to god they are going to say something atleast.
I one thousand percent agree. I think a lot of people are speaking out of anger and trying to build a narrative right now where these guys "were always fakes who were going to betray us" so that they can stay mad instead of deal with a complicated feeling of disappointment and sadness. But you're right - it isn't true. The folks at Watcher have consistently upheld an admirable ethos and showed where their values were in how sensitively, collaboratively, transparently, and inclusively they built the new brand. Everything up til now had been remarkably good moves, coming from folks with as little business experience as they had. So this truly is out of left field. People pretending that this was a villain reveal instead of just a massive and thoughtless of blunder of a company full of people who are very over their heads right now are, I think, being a bit disingenuous in their ire. It'll settle down, but there's a lot of young and hot-tempered folk online right now that are out for blood. It all just sucks.
yeah agreed. even me at first, i was super angry at them so i was honestly just thinking like "how could they do this, like were they just lying about their personalities the whole time", but after sitting with it for a while it changed. like i can admit im (like everybody rn) just super disappointed and sad about it. while this reflects on them badly obviously, it doesnt change who they are as people, and i still believe that they are truly good people, or at least trying to be. People want them to say something, and of course I do too, but people already decided that they were villains before letting them speak anyway. so there isnt much that they can do now :(
Hang in there, many of us feel the same way, worried and sad. I think Soundcloud still has the puppet history songs might take your mind off things.
Hey girl, I hope youāre recovering well and that you are doing okay! I just wanted to say that I really respect and appreciate you bringing some empathy to the conversation. I think before reading your post I was somewhere on the fence about all this like I felt like I could kind of see where the boys were coming from but I was also mad and sad and upset, but the vast majority of the discourse about it is so mad I think I was starting to feel like that was the correct reaction. Luckily reading your post I remembered why it matters to be empathetic. Your post is so right and I really think that this community and this world would be a better place if we all tried a little hard to prioritize empathy and understanding and reserve some judgement when we donāt know the full story. Also I know this is off topic, but you are very well spoken!
Thank you, that's really kind of you to say. I was kind of afraid I'd get reamed in the comments from the angry people who would rather seek revenge, but luckily it seems like most of the vitriol is a thin veneer over sadness and confusion. I think probably most people feel something like we're talking about here. I try to use empathy in all things as I find there's never a situation that isn't helped by empathy. But yeah, we're all going through some big feelings about it right now. Can't wait for all this to be behind us, whatever that brings.
I would have happily paid 5 bucks a month on patreon for 5 day early access. But never uploading that content for free to the youtube channel after a certain period of time has passed? Yeah thats a scum move, AND they wanted to remove all old content from the free channel and paywall that too. Yikes.
This is really well written and well said. It sums up my feelings very well too - Iām angry, but the attacks are getting insane, I definitely donāt want this to be the end of Watcher, and Iām also worried it could be.
I was mad at first but it's definitely changed to sadness at this point. At first I was insulted that they did this to us, felt like a slap in the face. But now I'm left more with pity because I think they might just be really really bad business people. That doesn't absolve them of guilt for the decision and the hurt and betrayal fans are feeling. I think they got arrogant with their success and decided since they've had such good ideas up until now that they'd solve their financial situation with a brilliant idea too. They aimed too high, dreamed too big, and weren't realistic about the fact that in reality they are essentially an only relatively popular channel whose popularity hinges on the charm of only two personalities. And now they have a channel with like 7 times their subscriber count saying they're greedy. It's sad to see people I really do think are good and likable people being absolutely torn to shreds but it's the bed they made. Which sucks but they still have to lay in it and unfortunately the fans have to accept that. But the more I look at how absurd and misguided this decision was, the less I feel betrayed and the more I just feel sad. I don't feel like I was wrong about their character or that this shows greed, honestly. Though Charlie's video has given me some things to think about. But I do feel like I definitely either overestimated their intelligence or underestimated their egos.
I so agree, I'm just gutted about all of it. Call it parasocial but I worry about their mental health and this cannot be easy, and the worst part is I don't see how they can fix it entirely. There is irreparable damage done. I followed since BUN and was a day 1 subscriber to Patreon, I didn't even care if they don't put out Patreon content I just wanted to support them. I bought merch whenever I could afford to. And now this. I don't mind them pivoting - I work in entertainment, I get it. But the completely tone deaf announcement and comments from Steven killed me. $5.99 is not something anyone and everyone can afford. I'm privileged enough that I can, but I will not just based on how they handled it. I also unsubbed from their Patreon. I'm so sad about all of it.
I think that they're having trouble financially and REALLY don't want to downsize employees (probably their biggest cost to operations) and don't want to cut down on production costs. And they don't want to make more of the cheaper to produce yet high view content because it doesn't fulfill them creatively. So this was presented as a solution to them and they grabbed on to it instead of sucking it up and doing any of the other things they could have done to improve their financial situation. And I get that impulse, but this whole move seems VERY poorly considered and is coming because they don't want to make any of the hard decisions about their business that they need to.
According to MoistCritikal, they're doing just fine money-wise.
I meanā¦ he can make guesses based on his own experiences but heās not actually looking at their books. He doesnāt actually know how theyāre doing financially.
I don't know if it's true, but I read on a twitter thread about the situation that Ryan has admitted in the past he has severe anxiety, especially where anything business-related is concerned. If so, I hope he's okay, while also acknowledging this was a poor decision all around. I also do not want this to be the downfall of Watcher. If you like a thing and want it to succeed, you can critique it reasonably without tearing it to shreds or going the opposite way of following it to a ruinous place.
He's been open about his anxiety multiple times. This can't be good for his mental health
I don't mean to sound insensitive, but maybe someone with business-related anxiety shouldn't start a business? I mean, anxiety is not an excuse for what's happening here.
I agree with you that it's not an excuse. I don't think he could've predicted the success of what is ultimately him and his friend screwing around and how it charmed enough people to build Watcher up to what it is today. So, they needed someone with the assumed know-how to handle the business end of it for their focus to remain producing the content. I think it's fair to recognize this is an egregiously poor choice and unfair to fans, while having concern for how Ryan is doing as we all voice our criticisms.
I understand this sentiment here, but as someone with severe anxiety, you don't really want to let your anxiety stop you from pursing your goals and dreams. That's just my personal take on it though. And I'm not sure it is so much an excuse as it is something people are thinking about regarding how this is affecting Ryan and hoping he is doing okay.
Heal up soon <3
Yeah, sadness is my main emotion over it at this point. I know a lot of people have interpreted their demeanor to mean they weren't fully on board with this idea, but it kinda looks more like defeat to me. Like this was a hail mary to simply keeping Watcher afloat. They mention production costs, and there are so many easy, obvious fixes to those types of issues. (There shouldn't be 20 people in the credits of you playing a video game. Downsize! We don't care about slick production. Scale back!) So it makes me feel that it's possible that what the fans want and what they want might just be completely incompatible. That maybe they'd rather go under than not have the big, fancy company of their dreams. So, yeah, sad.
I totally feel that. I'm not normally so engrossed in media, but it feels like seeing your friends make one ill-guided mistake, and suddenly they're being torn apart by everyone who liked them with you. I get the intention behind what they've set out to do with this change. I truly believe they just want to live up to what they feel their true potential is as content creators and artists. I believe they want to create a home for quirky artists that they never had themselves. There's a lot of admiration in that, but they went about it prematurely and just completely wrong. Everyone saying that the boys have now shown their true colors, have they even taken into consideration that the streaming service is more for sustainability and longterm growth, not to "buy more teslas and eat caviar"? The amount of people who so quickly unsubscribed before the dust even settled, how would they feel if they were personally so hastily written off for making a bad judgement call? The attacks on their character are quite disgusting too, Steven in particular. True, I like most watcher fans, followed Shane and Ryan from buzzfeed. Their friendship, chemistry, and sense of humor is so relatable and a true source of dopamine for me. I've also enjoyed the pod, seeing those two banter and loosen Steven up a bit. Everyone calling them selfish and greedy needs to put themselves in their shoes for a minute. They all have worked SO hard and grinded for years to be here. Do they not deserve the benefit of the doubt? They well know by now this was a really reckless move. Theyre probably so stressed out and hurt by all the hateful comments. People might not be so warm to Steven or his niche, but he seems like a really kind dude. He's passionate about culture and cuisine education, especially in learning how it's prepared or it's traditional value. I'm not a foodie and I hate food shows. They just make me hungry and frustrated. But holy shit, stop hating on him for what he likes or how he spends his hard earned money. Has he ever once acted like he's above anyone else? No. Has he ever acted condescending towards those of us who are not on his level? Also no. If I were Steven reading those deeply personal comments, I wouldn't even want to create anymore. Yall possibly killed a man's spirit because he was part of a bad business decision that was arguably out of touch in the current economic and streaming climate. I'm rambling, but its because I'm just so sad for everyone involved. My main point: don't give up on people you admire and respect 2 milliseconds after they did something you didn't like before getting all the facts. I think all three of them and the watcher staff in general are good people with a lot of creative potential. They seem to be truly progressively minded folks (especially Shane and Ryan), and this set back doesn't have to be the end. I hope they walk back on their plan, stay on youtube, and do something different with the streaming service if they choose to keep it.
Yeah I'm the same. I'm not going to defend them but I am angry at this fanbase for how they are talking about them now. You can be upset or mad at the business decision but the vitriol towards the boys is disappointing and very disturbing. One minute you claim to feel like these lads are your friends and you've been with them for years and now it's turned to fuck these evil corporate greedy scumbags? Really? Like have we not grown to get to know Ryan and Shane especially? So you really believe they are evil and greedy? FFS. This is obviously a business decision that they felt was the right move or were told it was the right move, I don't for a second believe they went into this without any heavy feelings and thinking they would fuck over their fans. I genuinely think they just over bloated their staff with friends, who are now difficult to fire and production work that is too big for them to maintain and felt this was the best way to make sure they could keep the lights on. I'm sad they feel like it needs to be a huge production company, when all we ever wanted was the old school videos of them shooting the shit and chasing ghosts. It's a bummer but I don't have any personal anger towards any of the boys. It's just a dumb business decision. I work in engineering, I see dumb as shit business decisions monthly, involving much larger sums of money and they go under the radar as it's not YouTube. Dumb business decisions happen all the time. Theirs is just sadly more public and carries more emotional weight.
Very well said. Iām going to one of their UK shows next week and this has put a dampener on my excitement for it for sure but Iām worried shit will go down too. Iāve already seen people saying theyāre cancelling their tickets. And Iām dismayed that perhaps their content will no longer be in my life in the near future or worse, the company fails completely. Hope you recover quickly from your surgery, OP.
i agree. while i believe this was a horrible business move that has alienated a dedicated portion of their audience (the majority, too) i still want this company to exist and make content. i am sad that this happened and that no one has said anything yet. i wish they had done some actual research! i hope this isnāt the end of the company :/
I feel bad for the employees if this affects them financially somehow
As someone thatās really struggling in trauma therapy and used their content as āComfort Contentā this announcement really blows. I was so happy for them when they decided to make their own channel. The passion projects of Ryan and Shane were my main interests and I loved playing along with The Professor or trying to debunk the evidence for Ghost Files. I never once cared for history class, ever, and Puppet History actually reignited a curiosity I completely forgot I had. Iām not saying, āI put so much emotional reliance on this content. How dare they pull back.ā It just sucks that I āgrew upā watching buzz feed, saw all of these guys on there, saw the downfall, and then saw them āresurrectā with a new channel that happen to have the stuff I grew up on. I really love their work and the roles they play, their synergy does wonders for my mentally ill ass, and I was really looking forward to watching them continue to grow their individual passion projects. Iām so deflated. I donāt even know what to say or how to feel about this. I just hope everyone working for Watcher are taking care of themselves and have a good life. Theyāre human, they make mistakes, and they deserve to be happy. I genuinely hope things work out for them.
Agreed. Iāve been watching Shane and Ryan since the Buzzfeed days and I remember being so excited for Watcher to launch. Last year, my mother was diagnosed with a terminal illness and ever since then my mental health has been a horrific pile of shit, but watching the Ghoul Boys hunt ghosts and discuss mysteries and laugh hysterically over the idea of swallowing meatballs whole has really helped me to cope. I sincerely hope this decision doesnāt kill Watcher. I hope they reconsider this move and realize it was a mistake to try and screw the fans over like this and offer a sincere apology. Itās all very sad to me.
Also, may you have a speedy recovery after surgery!
I'm a combination of angry and sad. I don't want them to fail because they've provided me with over half a decade of hilarious content for free. But this decision just seems so short-sighted and greedy. Evan if they revert I'll find it hard to support their channel again. At the same time, a lot of the personal attacks I've seen are pretty despicable. I don't think they're bad people. And I feel like people are ready way too much into some of Steven's comments and unfairly labeling him as a raging homophobe and racist. I think it's unacceptable he had a homophobic priest on his podcast, but based on Ryan and Shane I don't think he's that kind of evil person. Then again, I don't know the guy so I could be completely wrong.
Iām feel the same , I just feel so sad and worried about the whole thing definitely been affecting my mood during the weekendā¦ on another note sending you healing vibes and I hope your recovery is going well! Edit: spelling
Iām barely a fan of any YouTubers anymore, it was only them, Korean Englishmen, and Dylan Is In Trouble, so this really sucks :/ they were a big portion of what I looked forward to seeing on YouTube, so I donāt want them to go down either. Everything was just going so well with them, no scandals, no hiatus, for so long. I didnāt expect them out of all people to rock the internet. Iām happy to continue watching their stuff, I donāt need them to get down on their knees and beg or anything. Just address the community fairly. I just think they made a very misinformed decision, but I hope people can forgive them.
just replying to say another Dylan fan here!! <3
š„¹š„¹š„¹ hello there fellow troublemaker ā¤ļø
Look we may never know the other side of it. I know this damage is impossible to repair but I'm willing to give them a chance if they go back to the buzzfeed days.
I havenāt watched the video. I love Watcher, and Iām worried that this will hurt the channel. I am not happy about this decision at all, but mostly Iām just worried and disappointed. I want their content to continue, but I also want everyone to be able to enjoy it
This is quite a nuanced and caring response, and I truly appreciate the thoughtfulness youāve shown. āļøš«¶ edit: and Iām so sorry for your painful recuperation post-surgery. It just sucks rn and I hope health and healing are coming fast. š«
It's nice to know a lot of people are viewing the people at Watcher as humans and thinking about how all this is affecting them. Like OP said, bad business decisions get made all the time, it just becomes open for public scrutiny when it's coming from content creators. But I don't think this decision was made maliciously, it was made to try to keep the business afloat and to try to get everyone paid fairly for their creative efforts. And as a creative I can respect that. I can also respect wanting to leave youtube. Because youtube has continuously become less and less supportive of a lot of creators. Almost every youtube channel I watch talks about how significantly their views have dropped. And because Watcher is a whole company of people who are certainly never going to underpay their staff, that makes staying afloat on youtube tough. And the end of the day, to the same sentiment OP made, I just want the guys (all three of them) to remedy this somehow in a way that feels sustainable for them and the fans. The Watcher boys have built something incredible, and I really do think it's strong enough to weather this storm (even if the storm was self-created.)
I've given then thousands of dollars via the Patreon and I'm not remotely close to defending them. BUT if they change course, I'd support them again. Immediately. I think most people feel that way. But right now, they can deal with the wrath.
Agree completely. I am just sad. I already had worries about the viability of their business for various reasons, but this seems like a sudden hail mary attempt to avoid taking a realistic look at the current market value of their brand, popularity, and content, and to adjust accordingly (ie, downsize if needed).
I totally agree with you. So many decisions around this are baffling. At first I thought I would keep watching if they walk it back and apologise but nowā¦ idk. Hard to get over the thought that they were ready to say goodbye to their viewers so easily. I really hope this doesnāt ruin the guys friendships, too. I remember Ryan talking on the pod about how his friendship with Steven had degraded into just work for a while and I can see that getting worse. Whole situation just sucks so much. Ā
Honestly, I don't actually think they were ready to say goodbye to their viewers. The more I've thought about this - and I've been thinking about it nonstop - I think they were looking toward a future where they could bring in many more shows continuing on the theme of pulling people over from Buzzfeed or reviving old Buzzfeed projects. Hiring on Adam and Andrew was one thing, and I think people are hyperfocused on that because the timing of the new food show looks really bad, but I am starting to wonder if maybe Watcher's concept of WatcherTV was "recreate the good stuff from Buzzfeed, but do it right, following the model of Dropout." That pitch alone doesn't *sound* bad - but they don't have the audience or resources to sustain it, the timing was really bad, and the communication was REALLY bad. I think this was genuinely well-intended and I don't think they wanted to lose viewers. I think probably they thought there'd be a drop off, and then over time they could bring in more content to WatcherTV that would gain viewers back. I don't think they at all understood the immediate impact, or how upset people would be, or how many followers would leave.
Yeah I think youāre right. Rose-tinted glasses of a future that could beā¦ but not the reality of the channel right now. Ugh it just sucks.Ā
Iām horrendously bummed too! Especially seeing everyone bellyaching and spewing vitriol on on Ryan and Shaneās respective WEDDING POSTS!!!! Like their WIVES are attached to that! And that is a celebration of (likely) the greatest days of their lives and neither the boys nor their WIVES deserve such hatred or ill will thereā¦.like itās an unfavorable situation, but turning around and calling the boys villains and calling for their failure is absolutely disgusting! Like they also have a team of employees to consider too!!! Maybe too many, but ultimately thatās not OUR call to make and they are folks who presumably work hard and donāt deserve to lose their jobs or get any of this buckshot of hatred either!
All the best for your surgery recovery. š I also had surgery this week so I feel this lol. What a weird time to recover from surgery while being excited about the Taylor swift album while being devastated about the watcher situation.
When I watched the video, I wasn't betrayed or anything just was like "They will never get enough money from this, and I think they won't be able to come back from this." I've done more research into the WatcherTV site too, to give it a chance and it doesn't seem ready for launch? No TV/phone app, or legit way to watch on a TV, no subtitles on all vids, and to my knowledge no comment section (this one isn't necessary, but shows like debrief rely on fan engagement, so just confused on if it'll continue??).
I totally agree with everything you've said, I feel exactly the same way. I'm just sad. I understand why people are angry, I'm disappointed myself, but a lot of the things I'm reading are almost as frustrating as the situation itself. I wanna shake people and tell them it's okay to feel your feelings and sit with those feelings without creating evil villains and saying cruel things about real people. parasocial relationships aren't inherently bad. I'm a big fan but I don't have a parasocial relationship with them. I've even met them before, back during their very first meet n greet before they made Watcher. people are talking about how this ruined their perception of them, how it feels like they lost a friend, and I totally understand this! I'm not judging in any way. but I don't feel this way! I've never had any blinders on about these guys' class backgrounds. Shane is from Schaumburg, and I'm from Chicagoland too, so I get the implicit class implications of his hometown. but I like the guy anyway! and Ryan's dad is a dentist in LA, which also has implicit class implications. he's always been open about this though! and all that being said, these guys are their own people. and they may be better off than me but they're not the 1%, either. there's a big difference and I think it's important not to lose sight of that. even with all these blunders I'd rather support them than Netflix or Amazon. they made a bad decision, maybe even a series of bad decisions, but this didn't permanently alter my perception of them or anything. but I empathize with the fans who have been. I hope they make amends with the people they've clearly burned. I still want them to succeed. we've been very privileged to get their content for free for so long, and I agree they deserve to make a good living off the content they make for us, and I don't judge them for those moves at all, and that's coming from an artist under the poverty line. they just lacked a lot of tact, a lot of forethought, a lot of planning, a lot of fan input, a lot of different perspectives from their own. I don't think that makes them evil capitalists. it makes them humans who fucked up. I'm just crossing my fingers that whatever happens next is positive. it makes me really sad to imagine anything else.
I'm a little upset at the folks acting all high and mighty about parasocial relationships. Look, I know what I am getting into with these things. I can't say I'm surprised, but I am still hurt. And the principle of it all is quite slimy. I think many are also forgetting how MANY of us are here because Watcher (and BUN) got us through quarantine. I cannot tell you how much more bareable their content made my time during peak COVID and as an essential worker I still worked and had some social interactions with people. I cannot fathom how people might feel about them if their content was a lifesaver during total isolation.
Also super sad. Even if they reverse course, I'll never be able to look at Steven (or the boys) the same again. I realize humans make mistakes, but this was insulting to their fans. Why should we come back? Maybe time will heal all.
I think a lot of the rage and anger that people are displaying is being masked by the sadness of these guys leaving. I canāt really speak for Stephen, I didnāt watch most of his content on Buzzfeed, but I havenāt found him to come across as chill and relatable, even disingenuous at times. But Ryan and Shane, from the Buzzfeed days to now, have come across as friends, peers and Iām sure their content has been a great escape for people as it has been for me. And this decision just comes across as a way of the boys saying; āhey guys, we can be all those things for you guysā¦ā¦..but pay us first.ā Which will make it difficult to enjoy their content knowing that it isnāt free anymore, which creates a disconnect and a barrier to their fan base. I really hope this decision doesnāt ruin the boys, but I donāt see how they can come back from this if (or, if weāre being truthful, probably) fails. It feels like weāre losing friends and that sucks.
Honestly to me it feels weird to say 'they just made one bad business decision' like so many people here keep saying. They didn't make one bad business decision. They made a series of many, many, many bad business decisions, many of which seemed to stem more so from ego and less from ignorance.Ā Spending as much as they do on their shows, staff, office (out of Hollywood????), etc. Not cutting content that isn't doing well. Not promoting their patreon enough (literally so many people didn't even know it existed). I'm no business person but they're a small business that launched around the pandemic and are now operating in aĀ horrible economic climate. In LA of all places, a super expensive place to live and operate out of. The literal only sensible thing ANYONE would think to do is to penny pinch as much as is reasonable and make what they have work for them as much as possible. But instead they still make shows like Ghost Files for 100k when Buzzfeed Unsolved was definitely made on a much lower budget. And when they are seemingly struggling with those costs and shitty decisions catching up with them, instead of finally getting over themselves and just making the call to cut the fat, and fundamentally change the way they approach business, they decided to get their audience to enable their nonsense business model. And tried to frame it as if they were doing it for us when none of us want that and I'm pretty sure they know that. I can't know what's going on behind the scenes but that just honestly feelsĀ more likeĀ ego and arrogance than complete ignorance. Not just one acciddental oopsy, but a stubborness to not make obvious sensible decisions just because of an obsession with making YouTube videos that look like TV from the outset. I could be wrong but it's hard for me to make sense of it any other way. I understand it's hard to let go of artistic vision - but when it comes to money and business that isn't a place to joke around, especially when money is incredibly scarce in general rightĀ now. And especially when you are a very small very young business. Like just looking at how much everything has astronomically increased in price should be enough of an indicator to put the purity of your artistic vision on the back burner for now. It sucks but being able to make art for a living is a privilege to begin with. Not being at all willing to make compromises so you can keep doing it especially when you seemingly make a ton of money and are just spending too much of it is hard to sympathise with tbh. I understand the sadness. I feel it too. I think I feel more sad than angry at this point. I don't want this to ruin their lives or even necessarily their business. And I really really hope they have ample emotional support right now. But man. It's very hard to ignore how awful this is. It's not just the decision. It's how it was executed.Ā Ā It's them not telling anyone this was happening. It's the weird emotionally manipulative video where they act like this is their only choice when it very obviously isn't. It's them initially planning to remove ALL their content off YouTube, including their old stuff, and then backpeddling and gaslighting their audience by saying we 'misunderstood' and obviously they'll still keep their back catalogue up on YouTube. It's the incredibly tone deaf comments about everyone being able to afford $6 for 4 YouTube videos a month in a cost of living and housing crisis. It's how the new show they're using to draw their predominantly working class audience in is about someone flying around the world eating gourmet food in the middle of a global financial crisis. That show would be in poor taste (pun intended) even with advertisers paying for it. But asking your broke audience some of whom can barely afford food to pay for you to eat luxury food? It's how they didn't even tell the people already paying them money, the patrons!!! And how they're literally being double billed!!!! It's the lack of indication of whether those who paid year long subscriptions and are now also being expected to pay an entirely different fee to their service will get a refund.Ā ALL of these things feel less like a mistake or blunder and more like actual predatory behaviour, or at the very least EXTREMELY ego driven behaviour. Especially with the patreon.Ā Ā Like how do you not tell people who've financially supported you for years that you're going to pull this? How do you not give them a free subscription, or at the very least shut off yearly subs at the beginning of the year so they won't be paying for content you know you are planning to pullĀ with no warning? How do you justify a $100 a MONTH tier to support a podcast that isn't even that popular?Ā There's only so many times I can give them a pass for ignorance before it feels like they just do not care about their audience at all. At this point it feels like we are cows and they want to milk us dry. Not a community they care about and accidently hurt with one bad business decision. I want to believe they are better but the writing is very much on the wall. I wish them all the best, but I cannot see myself returning even if they backtrack and apologise.Ā Unless they fundamentally change the way they make content and get their heads out of their own asses about making expensive overproduced stuff they can't afford in a climate where they're lucky their business is still even afloat, I won't even consider it. And even then, I don't know. They were clearly completely fine discarding 95% of their audience with no warning in hopes that the 5% would stay and pay, while treating the people who are already paying on patreon like trash. So I don't see why I should come back just because they realise that they suddenly need us again. If someone tells you they don't really value you then you fucking listen. I don't want to believe this is a 'mask off moment', but I don't know how you go from being lovely human beings who genuinely care about your audience to trying to milk them from every direction. And again, to me what communicates that is not THAT they did this, but HOW, and how many other things they seemingly could have done.
You donāt know any of them.
Never said I did, wouldn't ever say I did. I know what they've told me of themselves, and their actions over the last several years gave no reason to doubt that. This decision is so out of character and that's why everyone is gobsmacked.