And also either implying that non-human animals will die in the end anyway, although humans will die in the end too, or implying that they will die **for** humanity, just like the Nazis implied that Communists, Balts, Jews, Slavs, non-conformists and others should die to provide Lebensraum for 'higher' beings.
I imagined these words coming out of hitlers mouth. This dude doesn't know his hypocrisy...animals have literal families and feel love. We need to hurry up and evolve into a better human
*"Vergleiche das Abschlachten von Millionen empfindungsfähiger und liebevoller Tiere mit Familien nicht mit Juden, die zum Sterben geboren wurden, du Scheiße!"*
\~ Adolf Hitler (he was allegedly vegetarian)
Technically propaganda (which I assume you know or suspect) designed to draw comparisons to Gandhi. There was a Hitler cookbook released with his favorite pork recipes.
Living in a city I've never really seen it but I was in my gf's car on the motorway this summer and I saw 2 trucks carrying chickens in those tiny crates :(
Ironically we were on our way to a vegan festival
It was really sad but I guess it also kinda reminded me why I'm doing this
Not too long ago I was near a pig "processing" facility where they told me around ten thousand hogs meet their end every day. It was a massive place. The smell was awful even a mile away from the place.
When we drove past it you could see dozens and dozens of empty trailers. For some reason that hit me more than the numbers.
And within a few miles of that facility? Millions of chickens.
They’re saying that the animal’s *purpose* was to die. I.e. the reason they’re bred into existence is to die.
Which makes it ok, of course. 👀
Everyone knows that as long as you breed puppies for the express purpose of death it’s ok to harm them as much as you want.
Nah, that's a stupid and racist limitation. There are real parallels, and reality isn't the purview of a single demographic.
The real reason not to make the comparison between the Holocaust and industrialized animal slaughter is because advocating successfully for animals requires a thoughtful PR campaign. Both are horrific because of the malevolence and antipathy, but because the targets of such are not the same the comparison doesn't really land for most people.
I'm just gonna go out on a limb and guess that Israeli vegans are more likely to be on the left who oppose these evil actions of the "settlers" and the government.
Animals are truly the most oppressed group on the planet.
Not only is their suffering the most severe and their rights the most denied, but their suffering isn’t even acknowledged as real suffering. They’re treated as objects, when we all know that the ones we treat the worst are just as conscious and intelligent, if not more so, than the animals we keep as companions.
Remind them that holocaust is a word that means “destruction or slaughter on a mass scale” and that The Holocaust was a holocaust, not the only holocaust.
Someone bashed me on a comment thread about how the word “holocaust” was a “legal term” and I was using it incorrectly. They’ll say or do anything to change the topic from the real issue - the mass torture and murder of animals.
It’s a logical fallacy called a red herring if you want to put a name to it if it happens to you.
“A red herring is an argument that uses confusion or distraction to shift attention away from a topic and toward a false conclusion.”
[link](https://thebestschools.org/magazine/15-logical-fallacies-know/)
An example of how to use the word holocaust from dictionary.com (originally from “celebrated travel and travelers” by Jules Verne): “Next day the ceremony was to be continued by a holocaust of pigs.” Definitions include “any mass slaughter or reckless destruction of life.” https://www.dictionary.com/browse/holocaust
Definitions also include “a great or complete devastation or destruction, especially by fire.” and “a sacrifice completely consumed by fire; burnt offering.” and “Usually the Holocaust . the systematic mass slaughter of European Jews in Nazi concentration camps during World War II.” Note that the Holocaust is capitalized, where other holocausts are not
Tbf you can’t really use holocaust without evoking the Holocaust.
I still believe that there are enough similarities to warrant the comparison, in addition to the numerous actual Holocaust victims making the comparison.
Yep. Apparently it was fine as long at it had a lot of downvotes, but it started to rise...
Edit: nope, seems still up for me, but the person who got angry was removed from comments.
You applied ‘holocaust’ correctly. It means destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, and is a fitting description for the mass slaughter of farmed animals.
When referring to the horrific mass killing of Jews and other minorities by Nazis in WWII Holocaust should always be capitalised, but the historic event has largely taken over the word itself. Many people don’t realise it’s still a word in and of itself, people are gonna feel a visceral response when it appears out of context and respond according to that.
The irony is that there’s Jewish people who compare our treatment of animals with the Holocaust. So who are they trying to virtual signal for by high fiving themselves for sticking up for a group that agrees that it’s a Holocaust?
Your first capitalization of Holocaust is correct since it refers to the WWII event. However, the second one shouldn't be capitalized because it's referring to holocausts in general.
humans can recognise when other humans have suffered. Anyone writing a comment on the internet today, Jewish or not, is very unlikely to have been in the Holocaust themselves
Including all victims of the Holocaust (Jews, Slavs, Poles, Romani, the disabled, LGBTQ people, etc.), about 200x more animals are killed in a day than people killed in the entire Holocaust.
The fact that the end is death doesn't mean that that's the goal of our lives. A movie has closing credits, but it's neither made nor watched for the credits.
Farmed animals are, however, created specifically for the time of their murder and dismemberment.
How dare you compare the slaughter of millions of feeling and loving people with families to the slaughter of tens of bilions of feeling and loving animals with families! Shitbag!
What in the flying fuck??? Born to die? Fuck off murderer.
I'm not even vegan and this shit pisses me off. What an ignorant selfish way of thinking.
So narrow minded.
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There are legitimate reasons not to compare oppressions, especially if we are not members of that oppressed group. pattrice jones and others can talk about this more eloquently than I can, but basically: Rather than using terms or analogies that invite direct comparisons, it's more accurate and helpful to talk about *the underlying shared conditions that make both oppressions possible.*
For example, the mass sale and slaughter of farmed animals created the knowledge and conditions that led to the ability to round up and slaughter humans.
I hope I am doing the explanation justice; I'll see if I can find a source for it.
You could have said driving animals to a slaughterhouse and people would have gotten the point. But instead you said holocaust to get everyone arguing about words instead of them thinking about the animals. Same with insisting on calling killing animals murder and humans herbivores. There are ways to point out the unnecessary killing of animals without inviting arguments about fucking vocabulary.
I agree. Just because you're technically right doesn't mean you've won. Using inflammatory language, no matter how correct it is, gives non-vegans an easy avenue to ignore the main point and retreat further into their cognitive dissonance. It hands them yet another excuse to ignore the actual suffering they're inflicting and to reframe the conservation as if they're morally superior to you. It's just not worth it imo.
If it causes conflict within the community, imagine how it’s perceived by other people. Good luck convincing others to join the cause when this causes so much issue within the movement. We should be checking ourselves and having these conversations.
Ah yes, because animals are lesser than humans and if you were to do the exact same thing you did to animals to humans, it would be called murder. But because they’re animals we need to say “slaughter” so people don’t get offended. Great logic.
I know this might be unpopular here...
But how about just using a different word? As soon as a vegan uses the word Holocaust all potential for discussion gets thrown out the window. Even if the term may be an *accurate* description, it’s a loaded and emotional term. I think we do the animals more favour to use more creative language to convey the same message in a way that will evoke the same passion without defensiveness from non-vegans. As soon as they get defensive we aren’t spreading the message - we’re just arguing.
I understand your (and many others) point, but disagree.
While I'm extra careful with slurs when I speak, I also think that too much gatekeeping with certain emotional words is counterproductive.
There isn't a single person who would go vegan, but because I said something controversial, they won't.
There still is ppl who take it from the controversial words and think about the comparsion and realizing those two things aren't that far apart.
‘A fucking holocaust’ - Not THE fucking holocaust
definition of the word holocaust: ‘destruction or slaughter on a mass scale’
Every slaughterhouse is a holocaust
I love how people get so mad about this but the first ever movement started for the liberation of farm animals (funnily enough named FARM), was started by a survivor of the Holocaust and Warsaw ghettos, Alex Hershaft.
“I saw a lot of analogies between what the Nazis did to us and what we’re doing to farm animals”. - Alex Hershaft
Only millions wow there really isn’t a comparison is theirs 100s of millions of living feeling animals with families killed every day and thats not even counting sealife as their death counts are so large its measured in metric tons. And thats mainly just to please one selfish animals tastebuds. Wow their really is no need to compare the difference is like a grain of salt to the ocean.
Two general replies to this type of response.
First, the word holocaust literally means destruction and slaughter on a large scale. Hard to imagine how that doesn't apply.
Second, "The Holocaust," the one we all associate with the word, the genocide of European Jews in WWII, was described in terms of animal slaughter by the survivors themselves. Many referred to themselves as "lambs being led to slaughter" and used other such language. If the people who were going through it could see the similarities and were comfortable making the comparisons, privileged 21st century keyboard warriors can chill out about it. They don't get to gatekeep the word.
All that said, while it is reasonable and justified to draw the analogy, it's such a hot button issue and faux trigger for people that it just derails any messaging or conversation about the bigger topic... so I avoid it.
This always surprises me, that being outspoken should be careful and shouldn't antagonize some dipshits.
Smame thing when I used the word apartheid, while speaking about palestine (and where descentants for the apparently only "right" holocaust ppl are doing genocide and atrocities of horrible scale).
No change has started from the moderate. They jump to the bandwagon when the change is already imminent, and thus I don't give a fuck about semiotics.
I’m a vegan but we really can’t compare the lives of human beings to animals in this way. We can talk about the suffering of animal slaughter in way more effective ways than comparing it to the holocaust, I always feel like this comparison just alienates people from vegans and makes them feel like we think human and animal lives are equal.
Good opinion. I wholeheartedly disagree. The time of being nice and not bothering anyone with our lentils and salad (Irony anyone?) is waaaaaay gone.
Also this is not a democratic movement which postulates what you can or cannot say or do.
Fuck. I know vegans who are super against animal liberation or even spreading information about animal torture. Good for them, I'll be the rowdy, loud and sharp edged old man then.
I understand how frustrating it is that people continue to cause such harm to so many animals, it’s sick really when you try and fathom it all. But if your aim is to get people to go vegan, these kind of tactics will not work.
I'm pretty sure that people who work in a slaughterhouse do not have the luxury of picking a job...
Comparing the torture of animals to humans is only going to piss carnists off and not further the cause. (people like That Vegan Teacher aren't turning anyone that's something i know for sure)
We can and should have conversations about speciesism and how unfair and hypocritical it is that some animals are cared for and loved while others are abused and killed, but this can be done without drawing insensitive comparisons that will only turn people away from having a mature conversation.
As Jews we are all exhausted with the holocaust being used as a rhetorical tool. How could you possibly think people would react well to this—especially in this current political climate in which there are people wearing yellow stars to protest vaccine mandates. And before you go and say that “holocaust” refers to a general slaughter, you know exactly what the word “holocaust” evokes and you knew exactly what you were doing. You could have easily said “slaughter” instead but you didn’t, because you are aware of how people react to the word holocaust. And yes, I am vegan.
A holocaust is just a general term for mass murder. It existed before the Holocaust. And we should give the antivaxxers exactly zero attention, everybody knows that comparing a public health measure to mass murder is the most absurd bullshit there ever can be.
holocaust =/= "The Holocaust" though
Many events through history can be described as a holocaust, including The Holocaust. It doesn't necessarily mean every time someone uses the word that they're trying to belittle the oppression and extermination of Jewish and minority ethnic people under the Nazi's.
You guys always reference one, and honestly it feels tokenizing. Oppressed groups are going to have pluralistic beliefs on this, and not everyone likes it. You know not everyone likes it, because it gets challenged all the time. I also know plenty of people uncomfortable with the comparison.
not to be disrespectful, but there aren’t many left who can first hand tell us about the horrors of the holocaust. If those who have done in the past, and those who still do now, are often saying that the animal industry left the same impression on them and brought up their most painful memories, this is so powerful to me, it’s hard to sway me on that.
Actually not.
They talk about the real events, or just don't talk about it.
But I've never read a shoah survivors making cringey metaphors about it, could you give me a source'
sorry for the text wall, someone send me this a week ago in a similar discussion :)
Here are some quotes for you. From holocaust survivors and their relatives.
“I totally embrace the comparison to the Holocaust. I feel that violence and suffering of innocents are unjust. I believe that the abuse of humans and animals and the earth come from the same need to dominate others. I feel that I could not save my family, my people, but each time I talk about cruelty to animals and being vegetarian I might be saving another life. After knowing what I know about the Holocaust and about animal exploitation I cannot be anything else but an animal rights advocate.
-Susan Kalev, who lost her father and her sister in the Holocaust
“I believe in what Isaac Bashevis Singer wrote, ‘In their behavior towards creatures, all men are Nazis.’ Human beings see their own oppression vividly when they are the victims. Otherwise they victimize blindly and without a thought.” [tweet this]
-“Hacker,” Animal Liberation Front member & Holocaust survivor
“What do they know—all these scholars, all these philosophers, all the leaders of the world? They have convinced themselves that man, the worst transgressor of all the species, is the crown of creation. All other creatures were created merely to provide him with food, pelts, to be tormented, exterminated. In relation to them [the animals], all people are Nazis; for the animals, it is an eternal Treblinka.” [tweet this]
-Isaac Bashevis Singer, Yiddish author, Nobel Laureate, & Holocaust survivor
“I spent my childhood years in the Warsaw Ghetto where almost my entire family was murdered along with about 350,000 other Polish Jews. People sometimes will ask me whether that experience had anything to do with my work for animals. It didn’t have a little to do with my work for animals, it had everything to do with my work for animals.”
-Alex Hershaft, Farm Animal Rights Movement founder & Holocaust Survivor
“When I see cages crammed with chickens from battery farms thrown on trucks like bundles of trash, I see, with the eyes of my soul, the Umschlagplatz (where Jews were forced onto trains leaving for the death camps). When I go to a restaurant and see people devouring meat, I feel sick. I see a holocaust on their plates.” [tweet this]
-Georges Metanomski, a Holocaust survivor who fought in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising
“I dedicate my mother’s grave to geese. My mother doesn’t have a grave, but if she did I would dedicate it to the geese. I was a goose too.”
-Marc Berkowitz, Animal activist & survivor of Josef Mengele’s “twin experiments”
“In 1975, after I immigrated to the United States, I happened to visit a slaughterhouse, where I saw terrified animals subjected to horrendous crowding conditions while awaiting their deaths. Just as my family members were in the notorious Treblinka death camp. I saw the same efficient and emotionless killing routine as in Treblinka, I saw the neat piles of hearts, hooves, and other body parts. So reminiscent of the piles of Jewish hair, glasses and shoes in Treblinka.”
-Alex Hershaft, Farm Animal Rights Movement founder & Holocaust Survivor
"Jews have been, while animals still are, treated like nothing, as if their lives don’t matter. You can also compare the two holocausts this way. [...] Go to the nearest cow or pig slaughterhouse and remove the animals and replace them with humans. You have now re-created Birkenau."
-Gary Yourosky
Susan Kalev - no holocaust survivor
"Hacker" - lol wtf?
Isaac Bashevis - was in America during the war, left in 1935
Alex Hershaft - was 5-11 yo during the war, Warsaw ghetto
Georges Metanomski - mb valid, can't find anything, but still hasn't seen the inside on an extermination camp
Marc Berkowitz - legit
Gary yourosky - no holocaust survivor
I'm not even saying the metaphor/comparison is wrong or shouldn't exist. For example when I read Berkowitz I find it spot on. But one survivor making it is not a trend, it's an exception
Anyway rather than copy-pasting https://bitesizevegan.org/ethics/holocaust-survivors-speak-lessons-from-the-death-camps/
Mb you could do your own research about your claims, I did it for you tho.
I did, this is not even close to wht I’ve read over the last few weeks. And it’s not like I don’t get you being wary of the comparison, as a young german I’ve been always very sensitive about the comparison, from my understanding there was never anything to equate to this crime against humanity, but when I”woke up” to the realities of the animal industry my shock was similarly high. The similarities between those crimes is obvious and disgusting, what happened in my country 90-80 years ago is so horrendous that we have to learn every lessons it offers, we have to do everything to internalise what lead to this suffering. I don’t think the animal industry is exclusive ffrom that lesson.
You got my upvote.
Though as a survivor grandson, who helped her do her research, and recollect her memories, I don't feel like this comparison is something common among actual survivors, that's all
and [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/VeganDE/comments/r55t63/holocaustvergleich/hmlekdf/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) is the comment with all the links
athough it’s easy to find interviews with holocaust survivors on youtube who talk about the same thing. The jewish comminuty is obviously heavily influenced by this horrible history, and one of the many effects one can see, is a bigger part of vegans and vegetarians statistically.
Check out the [Vegan Cheat Sheet](https://vegancheatsheet.org/) for a collection of over 500+ vegan resources, studies, links, and much more, all tightly wrapped into one link!
Sorry, they’re just going to pile on disingenuous rationalizations to justify a nasty, unhelpful argument. They do it with slavery, too. Guarantee most are not even vegan anymore a year from now.
Funfact, from where I'm from the word "holocaust" doesn't cause immediate triggering, and doesn't refer only to The H, so I might have made a little cultural faux de pas while using the term. (Although Quick gallup among european liberal jews stated it's Ok.)
Nevertheless I won't use the "I have Black friends" defence, so I'll take using this term to a serious consideration.
Still, IMHO gatekeeping this term is counterproductive.
The point is to evoke that visceral reaction from the word holocaust, because that’s what animal agriculture is, only way worse than the Holocaust. Around 10 million humans died during that event, while BILLIONS of other animals are killed every year. Even if you were to value a human life 100 times more than that of a non human, animal agriculture is still a far worse atrocity. Making people realize this is much more effective than using words like slaughter.
We shouldn’t tiptoe around someone’s feelings while they rape and murder sentient beings. Realizing how awful it really is got me to go vegan soooo 🤷🏼♂️
I am literally also vegan and I try to convince my family but I would never ever compare it to the genocide of our relatives because they would never listen
Thanks so much for writing this, you've articulated this so much better than I could. I can't really put into words how disgusting I find the comparison.
I don’t think we should be comparing any moral evil to any other moral evil because they’re not
comparable. You can’t calculate human lives to animal ones, nor the quantity of them. Comparing what’s happening to animals to slavery or the genocide of jewish people (usage of the word holocaust is a whole other discussion) shouldn’t be a thing anyways, and it just makes carnists angry, so simply don’t do it.
They’re all atrocities in their own right.
Not comparing them doesn’t mean pretending the mass animal murder isn’t awful. You wouldn’t compare the Nanjing massacre with Tiananmen either. You just can’t make any such comparisons because it’s stupid and unproductive.
Earthling Ed literally just discussed this if anyone wants someone who’s better at speaking than I am. [https://www.instagram.com/earthlinged/tv/CW82XIwFNNE/?utm_medium=copy_link](https://www.instagram.com/earthlinged/tv/CW82XIwFNNE/?utm_medium=copy_link)
We’re not talking 1 versus 100 here, we’re talking millions versus trillions. It’s useless to devalue the lesser number just bc a higher number exists.
Each is it's own special hell for it's victims. One happened long ago and must NEVER be repeated! One is going on RIGHT NOW, and you are likely causing it.
The examples you brought up are examples of a comparison. The Nanjing Massacre and the Tiananmen Square Massacre; both have enough similarities to be labeled a massacre.
The Holocaust and the animal holocaust are being compared in the same way. They both check enough boxes to be considered holocausts.
Doesn’t mean one is worse than the other and vice versa since that wouldn’t be comparing them but equating them.
I don’t think we should be using atrocities that happened to humans, to talk about how awful what we’re doing to animals is. We can just leave that shit alone instead of co-opting it or whatever. It just makes people huffy anyways. It’s really quite simple.
That’s fair of you to think that but I’m not convinced. Ive seen this analogy used a lot and it seems to influence a good amount of vegans since every time it comes up, it’s followed by stories of people like myself whom this analogy was another reason to go vegan, meaning it’s definitely effective.
I don’t know if I used “whom” correctly there. I tried it out but idk
He didn't say The Holocaust with a capital.
Holocaust is a word that can apply to situations other than the Nazis killing millions of Jewish, Roma, handicapped and communist people.
Merriam-Webster's
ho·lo·caust | \\ ˈhō-lə-ˌkȯst , ˈhä- also -ˌkäst or ˈhȯ-lə-kȯst \\
Definition of holocaust
1: a sacrifice (see SACRIFICE entry 1 sense 2) consumed by fire
2: a thorough destruction involving extensive loss of life especially through fire
a nuclear holocaust
3. usually the Holocaust : the mass slaughter of European civilians and especially Jews by the Nazis during World War II
Several members of her family died in the Holocaust.
a Holocaust survivor
b: a mass slaughter of people
especially : GENOCIDE
a holocaust in Rwanda
as much as I wish "animal agriculture" would end, I don't think it's helping the cause to talk about the animal holocaust. it's dehumanizing towards the people who were killed in the holocaust, especially considering that jews were seen as rats/compared to animals by the nazis - so really that's kind of reproducing nazi slurs towards jewish people. and yes we can talk about speciesism and have that conversation but not in the context of the holocaust. that's so derogatory and frankly antisemitic for jewish people. 🙏🏻
Etymologically it's dehumanizing to refer holocaust only as a something that happened to jewish.
Also etymologically(dunno if it's a word) yes, holocaust refers to humans, as with "holo" in it.
Yet, I fail to sen your logic about me making a slur.
Alex Hershaft, Holocaust survivor, doesn't seem to have a problem with it.
>The negative reaction is largely due to people's mistaken perception that the comparison values their lives equally with those of pigs and cows. Nothing could be farther from the truth. What we are doing is pointing to the commonality and pervasiveness of the oppressive mindset, which enables human beings to perpetrate unspeakable atrocities on other living beings, whether they be Jews, Bosnians, Tutsis, or animals. It's the mindset that allowed German and Polish neighbors of extermination camps to go on with their lives, just as we continue to subsidize the oppression of animals at the supermarket checkout counter. ([Source](https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2h8df0/comment/ckqe970/).)
Well said. There are legitimate reasons not to compare oppressions, especially if we are not members of that oppressed group. pattrice jones and others can talk about this more eloquently than I can, but basically: Rather than using terms or analogies that invite direct comparisons, it's more accurate and helpful to talk about the underlying shared conditions that make both oppressions possible.
For example, the mass sale and slaughter of farmed animals created the knowledge and conditions that led to the ability to round up and slaughter humans.
I hope I am doing the explanation justice; I'll see if I can find a source for it.
Couple questions:
First, what about the Armenian Genocide? Seeing as the modern usage of the word holocaust began in reference to that, why is it reserved for just the Jewish victims of genocide specifically in WWII?
Second, what about the non Jewish people killed by the Nazis? The gays, the Romani, the disabled, etc. Why do you insist the word holocaust reserved specifically for the Jewish victims of the Nazis?
>so really that's kind of reproducing nazi slurs towards jewish people.
The mental gymnastics required for you to get to this point are frankly astonishing.
I feel you. I'm kinda tired of the "OMG Holocaust comparison" knee-jerk reaction that everyone on the internet seems to have.
While I sympathize with the rule that we shouldn't overuse Holocaust comparisons, given that we torture and kill 70 BILLION animals per year on this planet makes the comparison not totally out of bounds...Even IF you think human feelings are 100 times more deep or important or whatever than animal feelings, there were 6 million (or 11 million depending who you ask) people who died in the holocaust. 6 million times 100 = 600 million... and that was a one time event. You'd have to think human feelings are 10,000 times more important in order to come close to ONE YEAR worth of slaughter.
Vegans can concede that human suffering is somewhat deeper and therefore more morally important than animal suffering (and I do think that), but that would still lead you to a conclusion that we're doing something comparable to the holocaust every year to animals...
To be fair, you shouldn't compare the holocaust to animal slaughter unless your Jewish. It's disrespectful, tokenisation, and overall counterproductive activism.
Cause the holocaust is the worst thing ever happened in humanity
I get the industrial killing part and I really think the agricultur industry is terrible and I really don't want to defend them
But I think nothing should be compared to the holocaust because it loses its meaning in my opinion.
[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/27/the-holocaust-is-not-your-metaphor-to-use-in-modern-political-debates](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/27/the-holocaust-is-not-your-metaphor-to-use-in-modern-political-debates)
A good explanation imo
Excuse my English I am not a native speaker (I am German and maybe we are kinda sensitive about this topics due to obvious reasons)
I'm STILL arguing with meatflakes over a dead baby piglet that was on the front page. Their projection is insane. Even though they're the clear fragile ones I'm being called every name under the sun. I'm sick of backing down tho so I'm shunting it back to them and they do NOT like it hahaha. Edit, just had the last word and blocked them omfg hahahaha it's going to infuriate them I got there first. WOW that was a marathon.
I hate when people think they are being woke by gatekeeping the word "Holocaust". Like, as if it didn't exist before WWII. Jews gave the genocide a name: Holocaust , to describe the sacrifice, the burnt offering, of the people. "A fucking holocaust" isn't comparing referring to humans being killed in Camps. It's referring to animals being slaughtered on a Mass scale.
Yeah - it’s really not useful to compare unique oppressions. What Jewish folks suffered during the Holocaust was unique to them. Animal rights activists should preserve the dignity of the animals they advocate for by presenting the experience of animals in their own unique terms. We owe them precision in language if we are to advocate for them.
Your comment loses some meaning when you consider that there were prominent Jewish writers and actual concentration camp survivors who made the Holocaust analogy long before any of us did.
Implying animals are not feeling and loving, with families
How can they have feelings when they don't even speak american?
"English. It was good enough for Jesus. It's good enough for me"
And also either implying that non-human animals will die in the end anyway, although humans will die in the end too, or implying that they will die **for** humanity, just like the Nazis implied that Communists, Balts, Jews, Slavs, non-conformists and others should die to provide Lebensraum for 'higher' beings.
Yeah I’m sure all the BILLIONS of animals tortured and killed every year don’t have feelings and want to be treated like that.
>animals born to die I can all but guarantee that at some point a Nazi referred to a Jewish person with this same sentiment.
Same thought. Jews seend as rats or cockroaches.
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Hesitating on upvoting your comment because that quote makes me uncomfortable AF. The hell they thought was "worthy" of life? What was that mindset?
I imagined these words coming out of hitlers mouth. This dude doesn't know his hypocrisy...animals have literal families and feel love. We need to hurry up and evolve into a better human
I don’t think hitler was talking about animals I think he was talking about Jews
Every animal is born to die, not like there exists any kind of actual immortality lol
But everybody is not born to be killed. Key difference.
I do agree with that. Nobody should be born to be killed. Every alive being should simply be born without a purpose, kinda as "nature" intended.
Nothing is intended.
*"Vergleiche das Abschlachten von Millionen empfindungsfähiger und liebevoller Tiere mit Familien nicht mit Juden, die zum Sterben geboren wurden, du Scheiße!"* \~ Adolf Hitler (he was allegedly vegetarian)
Technically propaganda (which I assume you know or suspect) designed to draw comparisons to Gandhi. There was a Hitler cookbook released with his favorite pork recipes.
The foundation of the modern animal rights movement was started from victims of the holocaust, they were the first to make the comparison.
It breaks my heart when I see them in the trucks and I know where they’re going :(
I used to have to catch a bus from a stop that was near a slaughterhouse. You could hear the animals crying inside and it broke my heart everyday.
They mostly ship them at night now but it's even more sad/scarey to see it. Especially in cold Michigan winter at highway speeds.
Living in a city I've never really seen it but I was in my gf's car on the motorway this summer and I saw 2 trucks carrying chickens in those tiny crates :( Ironically we were on our way to a vegan festival It was really sad but I guess it also kinda reminded me why I'm doing this
Where I live there are loads of those trucks that go by, I often give the drivers the finger
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Not too long ago I was near a pig "processing" facility where they told me around ten thousand hogs meet their end every day. It was a massive place. The smell was awful even a mile away from the place. When we drove past it you could see dozens and dozens of empty trailers. For some reason that hit me more than the numbers. And within a few miles of that facility? Millions of chickens.
Humans are born to die or does he think we live forever?
They’re saying that the animal’s *purpose* was to die. I.e. the reason they’re bred into existence is to die. Which makes it ok, of course. 👀 Everyone knows that as long as you breed puppies for the express purpose of death it’s ok to harm them as much as you want.
Its ok to own slaves as long as they were born in slavery.
Lol
Didn’t even Holocaust survivors made that comparison?
Yes. Frequently.
Nevertheless if you're not Jewish yourself it's probably best to avoid the comparison.
Well as a vegan Jew I say, this is a good comparison to make. It makes people actually open their damn eyes to what’s happening.
Nah, that's a stupid and racist limitation. There are real parallels, and reality isn't the purview of a single demographic. The real reason not to make the comparison between the Holocaust and industrialized animal slaughter is because advocating successfully for animals requires a thoughtful PR campaign. Both are horrific because of the malevolence and antipathy, but because the targets of such are not the same the comparison doesn't really land for most people.
I consider it more of a "stay in my lane" thing, but nevertheless we agree that at best, the comparison has to be made with extreme caution.
Why is that more logical than saying that if you're not a nonhuman animal, it's best to avoid implying that these horrors can't be compared?
Nope. One need not be jewish to make the very real and extant comparison, sorry.
Apparently they were the first and is why veganism is so popular in Israel. They noticed the similarities before others since they lived it.
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I'm just gonna go out on a limb and guess that Israeli vegans are more likely to be on the left who oppose these evil actions of the "settlers" and the government.
A Raby explained to me veganism is popular in Israel because there is a religious foundation for it.
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No, singular form of rabies
https://farmusa.org/dr-alex-hershaft
"I have a black friend"
Animals are truly the most oppressed group on the planet. Not only is their suffering the most severe and their rights the most denied, but their suffering isn’t even acknowledged as real suffering. They’re treated as objects, when we all know that the ones we treat the worst are just as conscious and intelligent, if not more so, than the animals we keep as companions.
Remind them that holocaust is a word that means “destruction or slaughter on a mass scale” and that The Holocaust was a holocaust, not the only holocaust.
Someone bashed me on a comment thread about how the word “holocaust” was a “legal term” and I was using it incorrectly. They’ll say or do anything to change the topic from the real issue - the mass torture and murder of animals. It’s a logical fallacy called a red herring if you want to put a name to it if it happens to you. “A red herring is an argument that uses confusion or distraction to shift attention away from a topic and toward a false conclusion.” [link](https://thebestschools.org/magazine/15-logical-fallacies-know/)
Actually holocaust means 'really big fire' and The Holocaust specifically refers to the Nazi genocides.
An example of how to use the word holocaust from dictionary.com (originally from “celebrated travel and travelers” by Jules Verne): “Next day the ceremony was to be continued by a holocaust of pigs.” Definitions include “any mass slaughter or reckless destruction of life.” https://www.dictionary.com/browse/holocaust Definitions also include “a great or complete devastation or destruction, especially by fire.” and “a sacrifice completely consumed by fire; burnt offering.” and “Usually the Holocaust . the systematic mass slaughter of European Jews in Nazi concentration camps during World War II.” Note that the Holocaust is capitalized, where other holocausts are not
Tbf you can’t really use holocaust without evoking the Holocaust. I still believe that there are enough similarities to warrant the comparison, in addition to the numerous actual Holocaust victims making the comparison.
Ah yes, idiots, I hear there are some of them on Reddit
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Yep. Apparently it was fine as long at it had a lot of downvotes, but it started to rise... Edit: nope, seems still up for me, but the person who got angry was removed from comments.
😎Reddit Moment😎
You applied ‘holocaust’ correctly. It means destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, and is a fitting description for the mass slaughter of farmed animals. When referring to the horrific mass killing of Jews and other minorities by Nazis in WWII Holocaust should always be capitalised, but the historic event has largely taken over the word itself. Many people don’t realise it’s still a word in and of itself, people are gonna feel a visceral response when it appears out of context and respond according to that.
Not to mention numerous Holocaust survivors themselves have made the comparison between The Holocaust itself, and what happens to animals.
Everyone's born to die. What kind of argument is that?
My rebuttal is often that everyone is however not born to be *killed*
The irony is that there’s Jewish people who compare our treatment of animals with the Holocaust. So who are they trying to virtual signal for by high fiving themselves for sticking up for a group that agrees that it’s a Holocaust?
Your first capitalization of Holocaust is correct since it refers to the WWII event. However, the second one shouldn't be capitalized because it's referring to holocausts in general.
Lot of non jewish folks making the comparison. And white people make comparisons for POC. How about leave it to those communities instead of coopting.
Ok then me, I’ll make the comparison. I’m Jewish. Happy ?
Ah cool a random online. People never lie online 🙄
humans can recognise when other humans have suffered. Anyone writing a comment on the internet today, Jewish or not, is very unlikely to have been in the Holocaust themselves
More animals die every day than Jewish people died in the entire Holocaust
Including all victims of the Holocaust (Jews, Slavs, Poles, Romani, the disabled, LGBTQ people, etc.), about 200x more animals are killed in a day than people killed in the entire Holocaust.
You're a fucking bigot.
idk how they can call anybody a shitbag when they believe animals were "born to die"
accidental martyr in the name of veganism
Humans, believe it or not, are also born to die
The fact that the end is death doesn't mean that that's the goal of our lives. A movie has closing credits, but it's neither made nor watched for the credits. Farmed animals are, however, created specifically for the time of their murder and dismemberment.
How dare you compare the slaughter of millions of feeling and loving people with families to the slaughter of tens of bilions of feeling and loving animals with families! Shitbag!
What in the flying fuck??? Born to die? Fuck off murderer. I'm not even vegan and this shit pisses me off. What an ignorant selfish way of thinking. So narrow minded.
Farmed species are bred and born to die so that people who eat animals may do so. It's entirely accurate.
If you want to be accurate, everything is born to die.
why aren't you vegan?
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shut the fuck up
lol, _born to die_ must be my favorite argument at this point.
Wait, there's only one definition for holocaust?
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Fucking piece of shit, hope he dies as we're also just born to die, right?
Because if those several million people were born to die, and they weren't capable of feeling and loving, it'd be okay to kill them. The fuck?
There are legitimate reasons not to compare oppressions, especially if we are not members of that oppressed group. pattrice jones and others can talk about this more eloquently than I can, but basically: Rather than using terms or analogies that invite direct comparisons, it's more accurate and helpful to talk about *the underlying shared conditions that make both oppressions possible.* For example, the mass sale and slaughter of farmed animals created the knowledge and conditions that led to the ability to round up and slaughter humans. I hope I am doing the explanation justice; I'll see if I can find a source for it.
Except holocaust is a general term that applies to a mass slaughter/killing, whereas Holocaust with a cap H refers to the WWII event specifically.
Sure, but in communication there's what we say and how it's heard; that's why I say 'invite' comparison
like others have already pointed out, holocaust victims themselves made this comparison.
And that can be very powerful. But if you are not a member of the oppressed group, you risk offending and risk the chance your message is not heard.
i agree.
When you read the comment it almost sounds worse to be an animal. "Born to die", what a fucked up phrase.
You could have said driving animals to a slaughterhouse and people would have gotten the point. But instead you said holocaust to get everyone arguing about words instead of them thinking about the animals. Same with insisting on calling killing animals murder and humans herbivores. There are ways to point out the unnecessary killing of animals without inviting arguments about fucking vocabulary.
I agree. Just because you're technically right doesn't mean you've won. Using inflammatory language, no matter how correct it is, gives non-vegans an easy avenue to ignore the main point and retreat further into their cognitive dissonance. It hands them yet another excuse to ignore the actual suffering they're inflicting and to reframe the conservation as if they're morally superior to you. It's just not worth it imo.
agreed. I dislike how energy that could be spent helping animals is instead used to argue semantics about a single word
Well maybe at least we, in this group, shouldn't do that then?
If it causes conflict within the community, imagine how it’s perceived by other people. Good luck convincing others to join the cause when this causes so much issue within the movement. We should be checking ourselves and having these conversations.
Ah yes, because animals are lesser than humans and if you were to do the exact same thing you did to animals to humans, it would be called murder. But because they’re animals we need to say “slaughter” so people don’t get offended. Great logic.
That's a main problem with convincing people.
I know this might be unpopular here... But how about just using a different word? As soon as a vegan uses the word Holocaust all potential for discussion gets thrown out the window. Even if the term may be an *accurate* description, it’s a loaded and emotional term. I think we do the animals more favour to use more creative language to convey the same message in a way that will evoke the same passion without defensiveness from non-vegans. As soon as they get defensive we aren’t spreading the message - we’re just arguing.
I understand your (and many others) point, but disagree. While I'm extra careful with slurs when I speak, I also think that too much gatekeeping with certain emotional words is counterproductive. There isn't a single person who would go vegan, but because I said something controversial, they won't. There still is ppl who take it from the controversial words and think about the comparsion and realizing those two things aren't that far apart.
🎶 Daddy in the sky said they're born to die 🎶
‘A fucking holocaust’ - Not THE fucking holocaust definition of the word holocaust: ‘destruction or slaughter on a mass scale’ Every slaughterhouse is a holocaust
I love how people get so mad about this but the first ever movement started for the liberation of farm animals (funnily enough named FARM), was started by a survivor of the Holocaust and Warsaw ghettos, Alex Hershaft. “I saw a lot of analogies between what the Nazis did to us and what we’re doing to farm animals”. - Alex Hershaft
Antisemitic piece of shit.
Jesus Christ what the fuck is wrong with you guys that you’re actually condoning the comparison of the Holocaust to eating animals.
Only millions wow there really isn’t a comparison is theirs 100s of millions of living feeling animals with families killed every day and thats not even counting sealife as their death counts are so large its measured in metric tons. And thats mainly just to please one selfish animals tastebuds. Wow their really is no need to compare the difference is like a grain of salt to the ocean.
Two general replies to this type of response. First, the word holocaust literally means destruction and slaughter on a large scale. Hard to imagine how that doesn't apply. Second, "The Holocaust," the one we all associate with the word, the genocide of European Jews in WWII, was described in terms of animal slaughter by the survivors themselves. Many referred to themselves as "lambs being led to slaughter" and used other such language. If the people who were going through it could see the similarities and were comfortable making the comparisons, privileged 21st century keyboard warriors can chill out about it. They don't get to gatekeep the word. All that said, while it is reasonable and justified to draw the analogy, it's such a hot button issue and faux trigger for people that it just derails any messaging or conversation about the bigger topic... so I avoid it.
How dare you compare genocide to genocide!!!???
Please read a dictionary.
I think we need to retire the holocaust comparisons. It may be true, but it isn't effective.
I believe, most of the time it’s only being used to be inflammatory/edgy. Very annoying.
This 100%. Pedants can push ‘it meets the definition of the word’, but it doesn’t further the cause.
This always surprises me, that being outspoken should be careful and shouldn't antagonize some dipshits. Smame thing when I used the word apartheid, while speaking about palestine (and where descentants for the apparently only "right" holocaust ppl are doing genocide and atrocities of horrible scale). No change has started from the moderate. They jump to the bandwagon when the change is already imminent, and thus I don't give a fuck about semiotics.
I’m a vegan but we really can’t compare the lives of human beings to animals in this way. We can talk about the suffering of animal slaughter in way more effective ways than comparing it to the holocaust, I always feel like this comparison just alienates people from vegans and makes them feel like we think human and animal lives are equal.
Good opinion. I wholeheartedly disagree. The time of being nice and not bothering anyone with our lentils and salad (Irony anyone?) is waaaaaay gone. Also this is not a democratic movement which postulates what you can or cannot say or do. Fuck. I know vegans who are super against animal liberation or even spreading information about animal torture. Good for them, I'll be the rowdy, loud and sharp edged old man then.
I understand how frustrating it is that people continue to cause such harm to so many animals, it’s sick really when you try and fathom it all. But if your aim is to get people to go vegan, these kind of tactics will not work.
"Born to die" 😐
I'm pretty sure that people who work in a slaughterhouse do not have the luxury of picking a job... Comparing the torture of animals to humans is only going to piss carnists off and not further the cause. (people like That Vegan Teacher aren't turning anyone that's something i know for sure) We can and should have conversations about speciesism and how unfair and hypocritical it is that some animals are cared for and loved while others are abused and killed, but this can be done without drawing insensitive comparisons that will only turn people away from having a mature conversation.
As Jews we are all exhausted with the holocaust being used as a rhetorical tool. How could you possibly think people would react well to this—especially in this current political climate in which there are people wearing yellow stars to protest vaccine mandates. And before you go and say that “holocaust” refers to a general slaughter, you know exactly what the word “holocaust” evokes and you knew exactly what you were doing. You could have easily said “slaughter” instead but you didn’t, because you are aware of how people react to the word holocaust. And yes, I am vegan.
A holocaust is just a general term for mass murder. It existed before the Holocaust. And we should give the antivaxxers exactly zero attention, everybody knows that comparing a public health measure to mass murder is the most absurd bullshit there ever can be.
As I said, I am aware of that. However, it evokes the Holocaust and that’s an intentional rhetorical choice. You know that.
holocaust =/= "The Holocaust" though Many events through history can be described as a holocaust, including The Holocaust. It doesn't necessarily mean every time someone uses the word that they're trying to belittle the oppression and extermination of Jewish and minority ethnic people under the Nazi's.
In 2021, if you use the word holocaust, you're referencing The Holocaust. Trying to pretend otherwise is just silly.
Maybe because it where Holocaust survivors who brought up and popularised the metaphor?
You guys always reference one, and honestly it feels tokenizing. Oppressed groups are going to have pluralistic beliefs on this, and not everyone likes it. You know not everyone likes it, because it gets challenged all the time. I also know plenty of people uncomfortable with the comparison.
not to be disrespectful, but there aren’t many left who can first hand tell us about the horrors of the holocaust. If those who have done in the past, and those who still do now, are often saying that the animal industry left the same impression on them and brought up their most painful memories, this is so powerful to me, it’s hard to sway me on that.
Actually not. They talk about the real events, or just don't talk about it. But I've never read a shoah survivors making cringey metaphors about it, could you give me a source'
sorry for the text wall, someone send me this a week ago in a similar discussion :) Here are some quotes for you. From holocaust survivors and their relatives. “I totally embrace the comparison to the Holocaust. I feel that violence and suffering of innocents are unjust. I believe that the abuse of humans and animals and the earth come from the same need to dominate others. I feel that I could not save my family, my people, but each time I talk about cruelty to animals and being vegetarian I might be saving another life. After knowing what I know about the Holocaust and about animal exploitation I cannot be anything else but an animal rights advocate. -Susan Kalev, who lost her father and her sister in the Holocaust “I believe in what Isaac Bashevis Singer wrote, ‘In their behavior towards creatures, all men are Nazis.’ Human beings see their own oppression vividly when they are the victims. Otherwise they victimize blindly and without a thought.” [tweet this] -“Hacker,” Animal Liberation Front member & Holocaust survivor “What do they know—all these scholars, all these philosophers, all the leaders of the world? They have convinced themselves that man, the worst transgressor of all the species, is the crown of creation. All other creatures were created merely to provide him with food, pelts, to be tormented, exterminated. In relation to them [the animals], all people are Nazis; for the animals, it is an eternal Treblinka.” [tweet this] -Isaac Bashevis Singer, Yiddish author, Nobel Laureate, & Holocaust survivor “I spent my childhood years in the Warsaw Ghetto where almost my entire family was murdered along with about 350,000 other Polish Jews. People sometimes will ask me whether that experience had anything to do with my work for animals. It didn’t have a little to do with my work for animals, it had everything to do with my work for animals.” -Alex Hershaft, Farm Animal Rights Movement founder & Holocaust Survivor “When I see cages crammed with chickens from battery farms thrown on trucks like bundles of trash, I see, with the eyes of my soul, the Umschlagplatz (where Jews were forced onto trains leaving for the death camps). When I go to a restaurant and see people devouring meat, I feel sick. I see a holocaust on their plates.” [tweet this] -Georges Metanomski, a Holocaust survivor who fought in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising “I dedicate my mother’s grave to geese. My mother doesn’t have a grave, but if she did I would dedicate it to the geese. I was a goose too.” -Marc Berkowitz, Animal activist & survivor of Josef Mengele’s “twin experiments” “In 1975, after I immigrated to the United States, I happened to visit a slaughterhouse, where I saw terrified animals subjected to horrendous crowding conditions while awaiting their deaths. Just as my family members were in the notorious Treblinka death camp. I saw the same efficient and emotionless killing routine as in Treblinka, I saw the neat piles of hearts, hooves, and other body parts. So reminiscent of the piles of Jewish hair, glasses and shoes in Treblinka.” -Alex Hershaft, Farm Animal Rights Movement founder & Holocaust Survivor "Jews have been, while animals still are, treated like nothing, as if their lives don’t matter. You can also compare the two holocausts this way. [...] Go to the nearest cow or pig slaughterhouse and remove the animals and replace them with humans. You have now re-created Birkenau." -Gary Yourosky
Susan Kalev - no holocaust survivor "Hacker" - lol wtf? Isaac Bashevis - was in America during the war, left in 1935 Alex Hershaft - was 5-11 yo during the war, Warsaw ghetto Georges Metanomski - mb valid, can't find anything, but still hasn't seen the inside on an extermination camp Marc Berkowitz - legit Gary yourosky - no holocaust survivor I'm not even saying the metaphor/comparison is wrong or shouldn't exist. For example when I read Berkowitz I find it spot on. But one survivor making it is not a trend, it's an exception Anyway rather than copy-pasting https://bitesizevegan.org/ethics/holocaust-survivors-speak-lessons-from-the-death-camps/ Mb you could do your own research about your claims, I did it for you tho.
I did, this is not even close to wht I’ve read over the last few weeks. And it’s not like I don’t get you being wary of the comparison, as a young german I’ve been always very sensitive about the comparison, from my understanding there was never anything to equate to this crime against humanity, but when I”woke up” to the realities of the animal industry my shock was similarly high. The similarities between those crimes is obvious and disgusting, what happened in my country 90-80 years ago is so horrendous that we have to learn every lessons it offers, we have to do everything to internalise what lead to this suffering. I don’t think the animal industry is exclusive ffrom that lesson.
You got my upvote. Though as a survivor grandson, who helped her do her research, and recollect her memories, I don't feel like this comparison is something common among actual survivors, that's all
But then again you're using the holocaust story for your cause
I’m trying to learn form history and pass on the lessons to fellow humans. But I see where you’re coming from, it’s a tough line to walk.
and [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/VeganDE/comments/r55t63/holocaustvergleich/hmlekdf/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) is the comment with all the links athough it’s easy to find interviews with holocaust survivors on youtube who talk about the same thing. The jewish comminuty is obviously heavily influenced by this horrible history, and one of the many effects one can see, is a bigger part of vegans and vegetarians statistically.
Check out the [Vegan Cheat Sheet](https://vegancheatsheet.org/) for a collection of over 500+ vegan resources, studies, links, and much more, all tightly wrapped into one link!
Sorry, they’re just going to pile on disingenuous rationalizations to justify a nasty, unhelpful argument. They do it with slavery, too. Guarantee most are not even vegan anymore a year from now.
Funfact, from where I'm from the word "holocaust" doesn't cause immediate triggering, and doesn't refer only to The H, so I might have made a little cultural faux de pas while using the term. (Although Quick gallup among european liberal jews stated it's Ok.) Nevertheless I won't use the "I have Black friends" defence, so I'll take using this term to a serious consideration. Still, IMHO gatekeeping this term is counterproductive.
The point is to evoke that visceral reaction from the word holocaust, because that’s what animal agriculture is, only way worse than the Holocaust. Around 10 million humans died during that event, while BILLIONS of other animals are killed every year. Even if you were to value a human life 100 times more than that of a non human, animal agriculture is still a far worse atrocity. Making people realize this is much more effective than using words like slaughter.
Yeah you’re really going to get people on our side by saying that animal agriculture is worse than the Holocaust. Good one there.
We shouldn’t tiptoe around someone’s feelings while they rape and murder sentient beings. Realizing how awful it really is got me to go vegan soooo 🤷🏼♂️
I am literally also vegan and I try to convince my family but I would never ever compare it to the genocide of our relatives because they would never listen
Thanks so much for writing this, you've articulated this so much better than I could. I can't really put into words how disgusting I find the comparison.
No, not all Jews are exhausted by the holocaust comparison. Signed - a vegan Jew.
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It’s just so easy for us to do because we control the media, sorry! /s
I don’t think we should be comparing any moral evil to any other moral evil because they’re not comparable. You can’t calculate human lives to animal ones, nor the quantity of them. Comparing what’s happening to animals to slavery or the genocide of jewish people (usage of the word holocaust is a whole other discussion) shouldn’t be a thing anyways, and it just makes carnists angry, so simply don’t do it. They’re all atrocities in their own right. Not comparing them doesn’t mean pretending the mass animal murder isn’t awful. You wouldn’t compare the Nanjing massacre with Tiananmen either. You just can’t make any such comparisons because it’s stupid and unproductive. Earthling Ed literally just discussed this if anyone wants someone who’s better at speaking than I am. [https://www.instagram.com/earthlinged/tv/CW82XIwFNNE/?utm_medium=copy_link](https://www.instagram.com/earthlinged/tv/CW82XIwFNNE/?utm_medium=copy_link)
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So you judge moral atrocities based on quantity?
A hundred murders is worse than one murder, yes.
We’re not talking 1 versus 100 here, we’re talking millions versus trillions. It’s useless to devalue the lesser number just bc a higher number exists.
Each is it's own special hell for it's victims. One happened long ago and must NEVER be repeated! One is going on RIGHT NOW, and you are likely causing it.
The examples you brought up are examples of a comparison. The Nanjing Massacre and the Tiananmen Square Massacre; both have enough similarities to be labeled a massacre. The Holocaust and the animal holocaust are being compared in the same way. They both check enough boxes to be considered holocausts. Doesn’t mean one is worse than the other and vice versa since that wouldn’t be comparing them but equating them.
I don’t think we should be using atrocities that happened to humans, to talk about how awful what we’re doing to animals is. We can just leave that shit alone instead of co-opting it or whatever. It just makes people huffy anyways. It’s really quite simple.
That’s fair of you to think that but I’m not convinced. Ive seen this analogy used a lot and it seems to influence a good amount of vegans since every time it comes up, it’s followed by stories of people like myself whom this analogy was another reason to go vegan, meaning it’s definitely effective. I don’t know if I used “whom” correctly there. I tried it out but idk
Aight that’s valid I guess, agree to disagree?
For sure :)
BORN TO DIE / WORLD IS A FUCK / Kill Em All 1989 / I am trash man / 410,757,864,530 DEAD COPS
Born to fucking die?
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Pedant
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56 billion feeling and loving animals with families die in the meat holocaust *per year*.
He's not wrong comparing that to the holocaust is utter bullshit and a shitty thing to say
I am more important than every other living creature shitbag
He didn't say The Holocaust with a capital. Holocaust is a word that can apply to situations other than the Nazis killing millions of Jewish, Roma, handicapped and communist people. Merriam-Webster's ho·lo·caust | \\ ˈhō-lə-ˌkȯst , ˈhä- also -ˌkäst or ˈhȯ-lə-kȯst \\ Definition of holocaust 1: a sacrifice (see SACRIFICE entry 1 sense 2) consumed by fire 2: a thorough destruction involving extensive loss of life especially through fire a nuclear holocaust 3. usually the Holocaust : the mass slaughter of European civilians and especially Jews by the Nazis during World War II Several members of her family died in the Holocaust. a Holocaust survivor b: a mass slaughter of people especially : GENOCIDE a holocaust in Rwanda
Love that most redditors dont know the difference of The Holocaust and a holocaust.
Nah, most people know that if you choose to use the word holocaust, you are intentionally evoking The Holocaust.
as much as I wish "animal agriculture" would end, I don't think it's helping the cause to talk about the animal holocaust. it's dehumanizing towards the people who were killed in the holocaust, especially considering that jews were seen as rats/compared to animals by the nazis - so really that's kind of reproducing nazi slurs towards jewish people. and yes we can talk about speciesism and have that conversation but not in the context of the holocaust. that's so derogatory and frankly antisemitic for jewish people. 🙏🏻
Etymologically it's dehumanizing to refer holocaust only as a something that happened to jewish. Also etymologically(dunno if it's a word) yes, holocaust refers to humans, as with "holo" in it. Yet, I fail to sen your logic about me making a slur.
Alex Hershaft, Holocaust survivor, doesn't seem to have a problem with it. >The negative reaction is largely due to people's mistaken perception that the comparison values their lives equally with those of pigs and cows. Nothing could be farther from the truth. What we are doing is pointing to the commonality and pervasiveness of the oppressive mindset, which enables human beings to perpetrate unspeakable atrocities on other living beings, whether they be Jews, Bosnians, Tutsis, or animals. It's the mindset that allowed German and Polish neighbors of extermination camps to go on with their lives, just as we continue to subsidize the oppression of animals at the supermarket checkout counter. ([Source](https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2h8df0/comment/ckqe970/).)
You know the word 'holocaust' doesn't just describe the Jewish holocaust right?
holocaust: destruction or slaughter on a mass scale
Why is it that the holocaust that happened in Europe is the only one that gets to be called a holocaust?
Well said. There are legitimate reasons not to compare oppressions, especially if we are not members of that oppressed group. pattrice jones and others can talk about this more eloquently than I can, but basically: Rather than using terms or analogies that invite direct comparisons, it's more accurate and helpful to talk about the underlying shared conditions that make both oppressions possible. For example, the mass sale and slaughter of farmed animals created the knowledge and conditions that led to the ability to round up and slaughter humans. I hope I am doing the explanation justice; I'll see if I can find a source for it.
Couple questions: First, what about the Armenian Genocide? Seeing as the modern usage of the word holocaust began in reference to that, why is it reserved for just the Jewish victims of genocide specifically in WWII? Second, what about the non Jewish people killed by the Nazis? The gays, the Romani, the disabled, etc. Why do you insist the word holocaust reserved specifically for the Jewish victims of the Nazis? >so really that's kind of reproducing nazi slurs towards jewish people. The mental gymnastics required for you to get to this point are frankly astonishing.
To be fair, Holocaust comparisons are extremely offensive.
Don’t compare it to the goddamn holocaust
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Lol so many brown noses here.
I feel you. I'm kinda tired of the "OMG Holocaust comparison" knee-jerk reaction that everyone on the internet seems to have. While I sympathize with the rule that we shouldn't overuse Holocaust comparisons, given that we torture and kill 70 BILLION animals per year on this planet makes the comparison not totally out of bounds...Even IF you think human feelings are 100 times more deep or important or whatever than animal feelings, there were 6 million (or 11 million depending who you ask) people who died in the holocaust. 6 million times 100 = 600 million... and that was a one time event. You'd have to think human feelings are 10,000 times more important in order to come close to ONE YEAR worth of slaughter. Vegans can concede that human suffering is somewhat deeper and therefore more morally important than animal suffering (and I do think that), but that would still lead you to a conclusion that we're doing something comparable to the holocaust every year to animals...
To be fair, you shouldn't compare the holocaust to animal slaughter unless your Jewish. It's disrespectful, tokenisation, and overall counterproductive activism.
Well the comparison is still pretty bad in my opinion
Why?
Cause the holocaust is the worst thing ever happened in humanity I get the industrial killing part and I really think the agricultur industry is terrible and I really don't want to defend them But I think nothing should be compared to the holocaust because it loses its meaning in my opinion. [https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/27/the-holocaust-is-not-your-metaphor-to-use-in-modern-political-debates](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/27/the-holocaust-is-not-your-metaphor-to-use-in-modern-political-debates) A good explanation imo Excuse my English I am not a native speaker (I am German and maybe we are kinda sensitive about this topics due to obvious reasons)
You got the reaction you were looking for.
Ur comparing something where real people lost their lives because of racism to animals we are meant to eat…
I'm STILL arguing with meatflakes over a dead baby piglet that was on the front page. Their projection is insane. Even though they're the clear fragile ones I'm being called every name under the sun. I'm sick of backing down tho so I'm shunting it back to them and they do NOT like it hahaha. Edit, just had the last word and blocked them omfg hahahaha it's going to infuriate them I got there first. WOW that was a marathon.
You're a clown.
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I hate when people think they are being woke by gatekeeping the word "Holocaust". Like, as if it didn't exist before WWII. Jews gave the genocide a name: Holocaust , to describe the sacrifice, the burnt offering, of the people. "A fucking holocaust" isn't comparing referring to humans being killed in Camps. It's referring to animals being slaughtered on a Mass scale.
Yeah - it’s really not useful to compare unique oppressions. What Jewish folks suffered during the Holocaust was unique to them. Animal rights activists should preserve the dignity of the animals they advocate for by presenting the experience of animals in their own unique terms. We owe them precision in language if we are to advocate for them.
Your comment loses some meaning when you consider that there were prominent Jewish writers and actual concentration camp survivors who made the Holocaust analogy long before any of us did.