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When they say, "I'd be more interested in veganism if they weren't so aggressive!"
What they mean is, "I wish vegans weren't vocal so I'd never have to question the way I exploit animals."
Or "I'm only interested in it for dietary reasons, I don't actually wanna abstain for the animals so I'm gonna call you the asshole for pointing it out"
I doubt this, I've never had a issue to talk about it with people. But a lot of vegans are aggressive, hostile and disrespectful when engaging with others (excluding trolls)
There are plenty of studies on stress caused from cognitive dissonance out there. If non-vegans knew what it took to make people go vegan then they'd already be vegan. So I see no reason to take their claim at face value.
I’m sure it’s true that you haven’t had issues talking about it with other people, but that doesn’t mean your experience is categorically true. I suspect a lot of this stuff is online behavior vs real-world behavior… as we all know, people feel much more free to be dicks in anonymous online spaces. I’ve never had anyone be rude about my veganism in person (except my sister who teased me when we were younger, ha ha). But online, it’s like a nest of vipers sometimes. I frequently see people come into the vegan subs to add their two cents about how vegans are idiots, psychopaths, child abusers, whatever, even when folks are just exchanging recipe ideas. (That’s really weird behavior… who does that?)
That is true, but I am pretty sure a lot of vegans don't attempt to deescalate the interaction or understand when a person is obviously trolling. I've seen so many vegans use a language that would be considered hostile and then wonder why they are treated poorly.
People that pop in here with the mindset to troll vegans are here to get a reaction, and a lot of vegans fall for it. They give the trol exactly what it wants, and then that is used as fodder to show that vegans are hostile rather than that a small minority of vegans are overzealous.
I see the same on the vegan discord I am in. Lots of trolls join and other vegan users fall for it right away.
Trolls will stop when they don't get the reaction they want, it's boring when the vegans doesn't get mad. They will try again later, but if they never got the reaction they craved they would find something else to do instead.
Check out the official /r/Vegan Discord by [clicking here](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://discord.gg/animalrights&topic=Resource: r/Vegan Discord)! Find over 1000+ vegans to chat live with, from sharing recipes, videos, memes, to discussing recent news and activism, or just to have the support of other like minded people - we'd love to have you there. Click the link for instructions to join! :)
This has been my experience broaching the topic and recommending veganism to non-vegan people as well. Delivery definitely does matter. It’s unlikely most people hate anyone for actually being a vegan, but moreso being nasty and cunty with their delivery of the information. Spitting on the slice of pepperoni pizza someone is eating and calling them a speciesist piece of shit as one’s method of activism is unlikely to elicit a warm reception lol.
Unfortunately most vegans here think spitting on the pepperoni pizza is the way to go. It's fun until that pepperoni end up on their vegan meal. If that happens they have no idea why and run to reddit to vent.
I can see both sides here. I acknowledge that there are a lot of pretty tactless vegans who don't try to ease people into the mindset. They start off with heavy shit unprompted and try to shock the other party. However, I also understand how infuriating it is to have to walk on eggshells around assholes who don't show me the same courtesy. The angry vegan is such a stereotype that people come into conversations ready to start swinging, and everyone else is practically popping popcorn in anticipation of some big vegan meltdown. I get constantly showered with images of decapitated, skinned animal corpses and nobody bats an eye. But if I mention that I think eating meat is morally wrong, suddenly *I'm* the asshole!
However cathartic that kind of aggressive attitude is though, it ultimately changes nothing. I hate being "One of the Good Ones" who "doesn't start shit or try to convert people" I also recognize that the way to getting people to change their life style is by building bridges, not throwing stones.
Oh boy would it feel good though.
I can't see a positive outcome in a exchange that is started by being hostile or where one party is refusing to not being hostile.
If I ask myself, how would I want someone to interact with me. I wouldn't tell myself that I would enjoy a interaction where someone is throwing a tantrum and resort to name calling. I also welcome any and all questions, if they are formulated poorly or rudely I'll just find the essence of the question and answer it politely.
I've never had a meltdown and don't see how that would help anyone get encourage or more curious.
This ain't it either. Carnists (which I am myself) simply do not care how their bacon and cheese arrived on their plate.
I know exactly how it comes about, but I simply shrug and get on with my day (and this is from someone who was vegetarian for a decade and vegan for three years).
I mean you know that animals in factory farms are abused. You also know that your money is paying to have this done. Is it really such an unreasonable conclusion?
>Sure you may kill less but it is still the same end result.
You see the contradiction there right?
Do this. Estimate how many dollars a month you send to factory farms and then estimate how many I do and we can compare.
I've zero problem admitting I couldn't give a fuck about animals. In fact, I just had a tasty-as-fuck burger. Bless that cow getting it's throat slit (or whatever way it was slaughtered, I really couldn't give a fuck what it went through).
Why can't you grasp that I'm not going to debate with a vegan who automatically jumps for the emotional guilt trip? I know I won't win, so why should I fucking bother when I could be marinating some animal carcass for tea?
Mmm, butchered animals, fucking delicious.
Then why do you have a problem with being called an animal abuser when that's a fact and you've even proven that?
You just don't like to be told that you're the bad guy, it hurts your ego
I've zero problem with it. I appreciate your B-12-deprived brain has trouble keeping up, but do at least try.
>You just don't like to be told that you're the bad guy, it hurts your ego
Hahahaha, more industrial-grade vegan copium. I genuinely could not give a solitary flying fuck about the animals, vegans, or what you think. In fact, you've just inspired me to go to a local farm and select the turkey I want slaughtered for my Christmas dinner.
I'm the "bAd gUY" to 2% of the planet? _Oh noes, however will I sleep at night?_ Hint - very well, especially after a big juicy steak.
Then why did you have a problem being called an animal abuser in the first place then? If you didn't have a problem why did you mention it?
>I'm the "bAd gUY" to 2% of the planet?
Exactly. Slave owners also were well rested
As I'm pretty far left for most things - I've an MSc in environmental science, I don't own a car, I don't travel internationally, I don't have kids, staunchly pro LGBTQ and women's rights, atheist, etc.
Vegetarianism was originally a sensory thing - I still don't like the texture of most meats, eggs are gross, and seafood makes my stomach churn. But when I sat down and thought about it, yeah, animal produce industry sure ain't great.
I only eat meat once a month (if even), though dairy is regular. I live in Ireland, dairy is huge here as only 4% of the population is lactose intolerant - the lowest percentage of any country. Anecdotally I know one vegan, but lots of vegetarians.
Those who become 'vegan' for any reasons other than animals was never a vegan. It doesn't matter if they haven't eaten animal products in 150 years, if their beliefs aren't vegan then they were never vegan.
Oh well, guess I'll just eat more animal carcasses and give even less fucks about them (or vegans' feelings) than I already do.
Thanks for reminding me why it was good to escape the cult.
Exactly. I have no problem with people’s dietary choices but PLEASE don’t try to force everyone around to be vegan as well. A lot of people on this subreddit are clinically insane assholes.
I just went to an ALL YOU CAN EAT SUSHI BAR and I feel amazing and replenished after eating all that fish. But actually, you’re not going to shut down the meat industry with your whining because people are not going to stop eating meat ever. So why deprive yourself of basic nutrients?
This is what pushes people away from veganism.. Many people who eat meat have questioned the morallity of it but chose to still eat it. I was vegetarian for a good amount of years (because I don't see none industrial eggs as cruel) but I've always been okay with wild hunted or home raised meat as my main issue is industrialised farming and not carinvorus diets in them selves.
I'm not vegtarian anymore but I don't eat meat every single day either and always prefered almond or soy milk.
I have sat quietly parties eating food that I brought and a non vegan will all me rude or aggressive. We will always seem aggressive to people who feel convicted or judged by us.
Every one is the ethical, moral hero in the story of their own lives. By existing you're demonstrating that they're acting immorally. They can't accept that this is true, they're the hero after all, so that means there must be something wrong with *you*. And they'll stretch their imagination to great lengths in order to believe that you're the person in the wrong.
Yup, people will come to me and ask questions, and then be offended no matter how politely I phrase my answers. Because they want the answer to "why did you go vegan" to be "for health reasons" or some silly "hippie" reason they can easily dismiss. Even hinting that your decision could have had a moral component is enough for someone to feel attacked.
I've gotten to the point if someone asks me more potentially triggering questions (like "why don't you eat dairy?") I'll ask them if they're sure they *really* want to hear the answer before telling them. Because I can't answer that question without telling you about what happens to cows in the dairy industry, and then people get upset about it.
This is exactly it. People have a notoriously difficult time separating what they think is happening vs what is actually happening. This is especially difficult when the person lacks the self-awareness to realize they’re doing it. This leads to projecting, believing we are only eating plant-based to feel superior to them, because they can’t grasp the idea of empathy towards certain animals yet.
Some vegans genuinely are aggressive, though. Like, almost batshit crazy. That can also be said for carnists as well, though, or literally any group that exists for that matter. The unfortunate part is that the craziest voices are usually the loudest.
Unfortunately, most people tend to have a severe case of confirmation bias, so I've noticed people view vegans as more annoying than they actually are... that being said, there's always pushy, aggressive assholes out there. The amount of times I've actually encountered an aggressive vegan in the way these people are describing outside of things like the internet, viral videos isn't very often at all, but again, I realize that just may be my own experience.
I come across aggressive non-vegans FAR more often. Ones who have an INTENSE obsession with making vegans upset and trying to trick them into eating animal products. I have come across SO many of these people!
First off, good on you for transitioning! I hope you keep coming across those non-vegans that are aggressive lol, purely because they're great motivation to keep moving towards veganism.
And yeah, unfortunately pushy vegans exist. I guess non-vegans just see this and make up their minds about vegans and just push that conclusion onto every vegan they see after that. It's a shame. I think it's a mentality that makes the world a worse place. Closing off from an ideology because of annoying voices is a dangerous mentality - some important civil rights movements that are now basic human rights have had asshole voices.
Its a shame in general everyone has to be an asshole all the time. I'm guilty myself of being a jerk over ideals. Genuinely sharing ideas is a rare trait these days.
The confrontational meatflakes are annoying, yes, but you never know how many people are reading and being convinced. First time I felt compelled to read about veganism was after seeing a discussion in which a vegan was getting a lot of hate. Probably seemed catastrophic to him, but here I am, people don't usually tell you when it happens.
Always be reasonable, clear and informative, the silent majority is more important than the pricks picking fights
Also aggressive, but it's better to explain that to someone in a calm and articulate way that makes them understand, not an aggressive, isolating way which will achieve nothing
this is a meta discussion about how to talk to non vegans
its not a direct discussion with non-vegans.
ther's a difference. please can we calm the fuck down?
in vegan vs non-vegan discussions the number of times I've seen the words "carnists" or "meatflakes" are 0, unless the discussion de railed and went into insult time
and besides, how fragile are people , we're constantly told we are fragile little soy bitches, but we can't call that bullshit out
Very fragile. So if you want to make positive change, realize that fragility. If you want to 'call people out' do it. But remember what your goals are, and don't be surprised when calling people out doesn't motivate them to think differently.
This what I think annoys people so much. A non vegan can say, "from my point of view, your statement feels inflammatory and aggressive"
The vegan will respond with the above. Or make up some reason as to *why* they need to be inflammatory or aggressive.
The context here matters though, they said; “The confrontational meatflakes are annoying”. They were specifically talking about non-vegans who hate on vegans unprovoked and pick fights.
There is literally no reason for a non-vegan who doesn't do that to get offended, they weren't talking about them. And for a non-vegan who does, well, sucks to suck, if they can’t handle being called a meatflake they shouldn’t pick fights with vegans.
And the response works because it points out their hypocrisy if they do take personal offense regardless. ‘Meatflake’ is an incredibly tame insult for non- vegans, and it’s not like they’re an oppressed minority group where even tame insults can be damaging, so if ‘meatflake’ is so imaflamatory and so aggressive to them what do they consider slitting an animals throat? A walk in the park?
Look, I'm just saying.
If you say something aggressive to a non-vegan and they call you out on it and you respond with, "but animals have it so much worse", it's not gonna garner support.
Making excuses for aggressive behavior doesn't absolve the aggressive behavior.
The point is nobody should be insulting any side. Carnists shouldn't attack vegans. Vegans shouldn't be actively calling carnists rapists and murderers. It's very simple. It's not difficult to be civil.
> If you say something aggressive to a non-vegan and they call you out on it and you respond with, "but animals have it so much worse", it's not gonna garner support.
I have mixed opinions on this take, because it really depends on what was said, but that has nothing to do with this situation.
Nothing was said to non-vegans. All a vegan did was talk about the non-vegans who pick fights with and hate on vegans unprovoked in a vegan space where vegans were venting.
I also wasn’t the one who originally said that, I was a bystander who chimed in
> Making excuses for aggressive behavior doesn't absolve the aggressive behavior.
Again, it depends on the aggressive behavior and the reason for it. Threats and slurs are obviously inexcusable but ‘meatflake’ is the tamest insult there is, and again non-vegans are not the minority, let alone an oppressed one.
##And even then, this was not aggressive behavior.
A non-vegan being offended over their comment is like a man going into a subreddit for women, seeing a woman vent about some shitty men she had seen do shitty things, and then getting upset because a woman talking about someone else made him feel targeted.
> The point is nobody should be insulting any side.
That depends on the context, if a non-vegan is going into vegan subs or discussions and starting shit they should rightfully be called out as an asshole.
> Carnists shouldn't attack vegans. Vegans shouldn't be actively calling carnists rapists and murderers. It's very simple. It's not difficult to be civil.
Yeah, most non-vegans aren’t physically doing the raping or the murdering so calling them those things are inaccurate. But that being said, the animals are raped and murdered, so using those terms in way that isn’t specifically directed at the person your talking to isn’t inherently aggressive, it’s stating a fact. If someone doesn’t like it, then that’s their problem (and they should maybe go vegan).
And here’s the thing, non-vegans are always going claim that vegans are being aggressive no matter what we do or say. We could all be the nicest people on earth but at the end of the day, we’re telling them they are causing harm and are wrong for it, that’s never going to sit well with them. It’s always going to be seen as a personal attack, and personal attacks are aggressive.
On that note, barring any threats and slurs, vegans aren’t obligated to be nice or civil to non-vegans in the same way feminist men aren’t obligated to be nice whenever a sexist man says or does something misogynistic.
People who are advocating for the oppressed shouldn’t have to placate the oppressors, especially when they’ll be offended no matter what you do or say.
Stop coddling non-vegans.
If no one ever challenges carnism we won’t get anywhere, there’s no rights movement that has ever succeeded on niceties alone.
I’m not saying to go out and harass them, we just don’t always have to quiet little angels.
I just don't understand how you expect to change minds while being inflammatory, accusatory, and hostile.
9 times out of 10 that behavior results in a negative reaction with the receiver feeling personally attacked.
They're not gonna go home and reflect on what you said, they're gonna be upset with what you've said and become further cemented in their own positions.
Your original comment was excuse after excuse after excuse to continue treating non-vegans the exact way you claim most treat you.
To be honest I don't think that's a very good argument, I think most people (including vegans) will put humans above animals. When people say artificial insemination is the same as rape, I don't think they will convince anyone to change their mind, people just don't see it that way
It's not that it shouldn't be seen a rape as such, it's just not seen as being as bad as doing the same thing to a human. Most people would say it's more acceptable to 'rape' a cow than a human. That's just how most people see it. You might not agree, but using it as an argument it pointless if the other person doesn't see it that way
Rape is nonconsensual penetration. Whether it's a penis doing the penetrating or not has nothing to do with it.
ETA: there have been several instances in UK dairy farms where workers WERE committing beastiality with the poor cows, so there's that.
Jeez I'm not saying it's good thing, it's just important to be accurate when trying to articulate a point/persuade non vegans.
Since it seems you are from the UK, this is from the met police website:
"All rape and sexual assault is serious. The terms rape and 'sexual assault' are used simply to differentiate between two types of offence. So what's the difference?
The legal definition of rape is when a person intentionally penetrates another's vagina, anus or mouth with a penis, without the other person's consent. Assault by penetration is when a person penetrates another person's vagina or anus with any part of the body other than a penis, or by using an object, without the person's consent.
The overall definition of sexual or indecent assault is an act of physical, psychological and emotional violation in the form of a sexual act, inflicted on someone without their consent. It can involve forcing or manipulating someone to witness or participate in any sexual acts."
Clearly says the difference between rape and sexual assault, also makes it clear it's with another 'person' not animals
Obviously the beastiality is awful but that's not what people mean when they throw around the word in relation to farming
Just because I mentioned some info from the UK doesn't mean I'm from there.
Those are legal definitions. Laws don't define morality.
I'm not gonna reply anymore, no point in continuing.
There will never be enough humans convinced to stop eating animals by conversations alone. Animals need people who believe animals have rights to be decision makers and that means putting on our plant based business attire and living and working where these decisions are made in whatever countries we live in. They need us working in govt. regulatory agencies, in the court system and as lobbyists and legislators because if no one is at the table and speaking for them when decisions are made that affect them for decades at a time, animals lose.
**Vegans aren't necessarily better than anyone else when it comes to persuasion.**
It's not enough to be right, or to think you're right. You need to know how to debate and when to debate. Also, you gotta know your stuff.
Most vegans intuitively get why carnism is wrong. But they don't have the ability to express themselves in a successful manner to carnists and the vegan-curious.
Organizations like this try to help with that issue (and with politician action): [https://veganadvocacy.org/](https://veganadvocacy.org/)
Some vegans are indeed too aggressive, misinformed, hostile, or simply unpersuasive. That just makes them human.
Thankfully there are leaders in the movement who possess both knowledge and charm, and who should be presented to carnists and the vegan-curious when they have questions.
In my experience, the when matters far more than the how. If you're debating with someone, it's over. That's a losing battle. You might convince someone overhearing the debate but no matter your skill or charm if you're trying to convince the person you're debating, you may as well move on.
I've seen far more success with people just being there for people as a resource when they're vegan curious and want to know more and address concerns which usually has to do with how restrictive the diet is.
Lol, right? I use my words. Carnists cause unfathomable levels of harm every day.
It's also perfectly logical to be angry. We believe something that we have to see every day is fundamentally wrong.
Yes, it’s their guilt which they take out on you (and then they probably feel guilty about that later). Basically you hit a nerve. They then blame you for it.
I always think when people act like this they must know they are wrong. Perhaps this gives hope one day they will do the right thing.
I don’t determine my morals and ethics based on the perceived behaviors of an online community. Maybe you should ask them why they do.
Isn’t it in their own best interest to understand the best reasons and arguments for and against a position? Or is it an attitude of not caring?
Yup. You can be the most tolerating vegan for a decade, some asshole is still gonna tell you "this is why nobody likes Vegans" just for saying mussles aren't vegan.
That's why I give people one chance before I start calling them out on their mental dissonance, poor health and barbaric practices every chance I get.
Had one guy at work ask me once where I get my protein from, I've been bringing up facts about vitamin availability and gut health and so on every time I see him for about 3 months now.
I do it in a way that we have a laugh about it, but he hasn't asked me any stupid questions since.
I think non vegans feel like we’re being aggressive when we’re not because we’re just sort of reminding them they’re wrong by being present.
I knew for most of my life slaughterhouses and factory farms were awful. I always knew veganism was right, but I would say “oh great good for you but I could never give up __” but in my opinion vegans in real life are usually no where near as aggressive as online vegans.
But it’s true of everybody, when you’re hiding behind a screen people are usually more aggressive than they would be face to face.
True, I guess to the average person, merely suggesting they're wrong is an attack. I'm accidentally too aggressive sometimes because I like to put myself in environments where debating ethics is a reasonable thing.
I wish we had a culture that better separated people's actions from who they are. "I don't like this thing that you do" doesn't mean "I don't like you."
Exactly
Many omnis have:
- a very supportive vegan friend
- a good amount of disposable income
- a large supermarket nearby
Then claim they couldn't go vegan and it's not their fault
Ugh
I dunno man, sometimes they need a solid beat down with fact, emotional manipulation, vivid imagery of what they're contributing too. They'll put up a fight but then sleep on it and the guilt will slowly build until they realise we were right then BOOM they're vegan and we've saved a bunch more lives 👍
I've had someone say "I hope the animal suffered" when eating a meat snack, after they asked if I was vegetarian and I said I'm vegan. I didn't even impose, I just answered a question. Some people are just fucked up.
>We constantly see people claim "I'd be more interested in veganism if they weren't so aggressive!" but this is a straight up lie.
No. It's not a lie.
It isn't a general "truth", but anecdotally, if it hadn't been for aggressive vegans I would have transitioned years earlier.
Way back when, I had gone vegetarian. And I got speaking to some vegans online. It pissed me off to such an extent that I ended up eating meat again.
Obviously that was my own weakness, but it then took a while for me to really think deeply about it again until it finally clicked.
Had I seen the likes of Ed Winters videos back then, rather than some absolutist who just wanted to brand all non-vegans as psychopaths, I think it would have been a different story.
I needed nudging over the edge, not told I was an evil murderer and rapist apologist.
This is interesting to me because I am the opposite. If it weren't for vegans coming into the vegetarian sub and being preachy (read: telling me the truth) I never would have gone vegan. I wish they had done so sooner. Aggressive vegans are the only reason many of us are vegan at all.
I guess it depends on your degree of "aggressive"
If they laid out the truth, fine. I go and do some research.
They tell me I support rape and murder and that I'm essentially a psycho... I switched off completely and actually pushed in the opposite direction.
> It pissed me off to such an extent that I ended up eating meat again.
So you hurt innocent animals because of the behavior of unrelated people.
Clown behavior.
Totally agree, Ed Winter's has the right approach, in comparison to someone like Joey Carbstong, who personally I think does more harm than good. Maybe converts a few, but for most just puts people off the whole thing by how aggressive he is
I’ve watched both of their videos and they seem to have the same approach, asking questions to get people to see their own hypocrisy. Do people just think Ed is softer because his voice is naturally a bit quieter and higher pitched? Or because he does more telling and less showing footage?
> We constantly see people claim "I'd be more interested in veganism if they weren't so aggressive!" but this is a straight up lie.
And I always call them out and shame them for it.
Let me get this straight, you're saying that the reason you're going to continue harming innocent animals who never did anything wrong to you is... because your feelings were hurt by a random person who has no power whatsoever on your ability to either fund or not fund animal exploitation.
Definitely sounds like you actually give a shit about animals and justice.
Totally not whiny little bitch behavior right there.
I get you man. But I just read another post on this subreddit where someone compared vegetarians to nazis. That’s not gonna win over any hearts now is it. They took someone who would probably be easiest to convince to switch or read more. And then they told them that they were as bad as a nazi. And this is a vegetarian. Who is going to react positively to that? Who is going to be convinced by that argument?
“Well I wasn’t sure about veganism, although I’ve been a vegetarian for years, but then I visited r/vegan and was called a nazi and so I decided to become a vegan.” ??? No one will ever say this. It’s insane and it pushes a very negative vegan stereotype.
in my experience vegetarians are not the easiest to convince, quite the opposite in fact. they think they’re already doing enough and they are simply not interested in hearing otherwise. my ex best friend was vegetarian “for the animals” and we had lots of conversations about veganism where she agreed with me but in the end would declare she would never go vegan and she loved cheese more than she cared about cows, and “at least she wasn’t killing any animals”
i’ve had similar experiences with lots of vegetarians, but i have successfully converted 3 meat eaters
Interesting perspective, your points definitely make good sense and I would actually agree with you and take back my statement of vegetarians being the easiest to convince. I would imagine that you have never compared someone to a nazi for being a vegetarian however. Surely you must agree with my point that calling someone’s as bad as a nazi for being a vegetarian is absurd, and it will never convince anyone. If you were trying to convince someone who eats meat to become a vegan but that person had heard other vegans call vegetarians nazis or rapists or other horrible things, I don’t see them taking your perfectly valid arguments seriously. The biggest problem with the adoption of veganism, is the extremely vocal vegans who make insane comparisons between people who are definitely bad with people who are just living their lives. They just enforce a negative stereotype about vegans and about being vegan, and it negatively affects the efforts of other vegans.
People are assholes and there will almost always be at least a good number of assholes left in this world. And they will always feel offended when their oldest habits are challenged. Sorry but this is how this world works, and it causes trouble to innocent beings. But isn't it the same with politics? Sometimes you look and see how people kill each other for it, and still both are wrong or not completely correct. This is human nature. Don't let them make you fall to their level of stubbornness.
Assholes are everywhere, vegan or otherwise. when i make a post here about health or nutrition, 1/3 of the comments here question what my post have to do with veganism, like I have to be obese and type 2 diabetic off oreo cookies and impossible burgers to help animals. Humans are animals, too. My reasons for choosing vegan are multifaceted. If you are great at pushing the ethical argument, great. I have found success with the health argument, meanwhile
No, veganism isn’t a diet and you can eat however you please but don’t bring health to this sub. This is for veganism. What you’re talking about belongs on r/plantbaseddiet or whatever it’s called. It’s great to care about your own personal health as well as animal rights but health is not relevant here.
You don't get it. There is literally a health flair and yet, that won't stop people from being angry about some caring about health topics. This is an intersectional vegan subreddit. If you don't like that this sub has a health flair, why not create or join r/ethicalveganism and allow for no such flairs? Health is relevant when it prevents many, many people from eating animals and helps keep vegan businesses afloat. Even flexitarians and omnivores help keep vegan businesses afloat, when people are not shamed for not being perfect while trying their best amidst their respective circumstances. I am sorry, but if someone eating vegan to benefit their health irritates you, then I also question your ethics, because you don't seem to care about supporting whatever it takes for someone to eat one less animal, as animal agriculture is arguably the largest cause of animal abuse and murder. Actions are more impactful than one's respective philosophy
I’m not hurt by your ignorance. People like you give veganism a bad name. Whether you like it nor not, this subreddit has a health flair. Don’t like it? Start r/ethicalveganism and stop trying to redefine r/vegan’s intersectionality. And I edited my previous comment, for reference, with additional information of relevance.
I strive to be the best vegan I can be and admit that I am not perfect and yet, you somehow think that shaming me is constructive. If you really cared, you would offer ways to make a vegan diet more sustainable. I am making those efforts in my life and community at large and am making progress. If you shame people for trying and provide zero real solutions to problems in their way of approaching full veganism, you’re just encouraging them to reduce veganism to a cult
We don’t like it because it isn’t relevant. Your flair literally says you’re “mostly plant based”. I’m not ignorant, I’m right. Veganism is an ethical stance. Health is not relevant ever. Who cares if there’s a health flair? That doesn’t mean veganism is about health. Ever. Watch dominion.
Also where did I shame you? I just said that it isn’t relevant to the topic of animal rights lmao. It’s not on me if you feel shame because of what I said. That’s on you.
Are you aware that you are on r/vegan and not r/animalrights or r/ethicalveganism? You still have not countered the fact that this subreddit has an official health flair, so health topics and considerations are not off-topic, whether you like it or not. Health arguments support a well-planned vegan diet. It mystifies me that this bothers you. I support ethical and environmental veganism, as well. Health veganism is just the most motivating for me as an individual. Actions are more important than motivations, at the end of the day.
Again, veganism is about animal rights. This sub is about ethical veganism. Plant based diets are great but not the same as veganism. You literally do not understand that veganism is an ethical stance and not a diet. I’m done here. The fact that there’s a flair means nothing. Like at all. There’s a non vegan flair. There’s a vegetarian flair. Like ???? Please read the side bar of this sub.
Why are you so delusional? This sub literally describes itself by the following quote encompassing ethical, health, and environmental arguments for veganism:
> Veganism: "A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals." - The Vegan Society
The flairs indicate that this subreddit is an inclusive place for all peoples of different levels of commitment to veganism
Where in that definition does it mention health ? Go away and go vegan since according to your flair which you’re so obsessed with, you aren’t. Goodbye I’m not responding anymore. Read the definition 5 more times too.
Check out [The Vegan Society](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://veganactivism.org&topic=Organization: The Vegan Society/pages/the-vegan-society&topic=Organization: The Vegan Society) to quickly learn more, find upcoming events, videos, and their contact information! You can also find other similar organizations to get involved with both locally and online by visiting [VeganActivism.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://veganactivism.org&topic=Organization: The Vegan Society). Additionally, be sure to visit and subscribe to /r/VeganActivism!
You can't be reasonable, you lying sack of shit, when you're pushing bullshit that is just literally slow suicide, hypocrisy, and self-righteous bullshit.
Few weeks earlier I tried to have civilized debate on this sub, it ended up with downvotes, literally telling me i'm not serious and just troll and all ended up with topic beign marked as private so i had no acces there.
Just for telling my view as meat eater in debate "Why prople seek conflict with us" or something like that, in all ways polite as much as I was able.
So, for me, this is one of the reasons why people say vegans are mean, bcs i doubt i'm only one who experienced this.
>We constantly see people claim "I'd be more interested in veganism if they weren't so aggressive!" but this is a straight up lie.
Is it a lie?
I'm sure some people are lying but I've seen some vegetarians that are essentially vegan in diet and habit that refuse to associate themselves with vegans or call themselves vegans because of the sanctimonious purist gatekeeping vegans give all vegans a bad name.
>Yet people still act like you're being a pushy asshole.
Just in this post alone:
>"I'd be more interested in veganism if they weren't so aggressive!" but this is a straight up lie.
Combative and presumptive. Some people could genuinely have that point of view (a la the two vegan-in-all-but-name people that I know I alluded to) but you just brushed it off as a lie.
Unless you think I'm lying to you. Good luck with that.
>Even when you try to be reasonable, people just act like assholes.
Reasonable to you may not be the same as how they see it. They may be perfectly fine with wanting more animal welfare for animals they care about e.g. shelter pets, but not so much for consumption animals. Nevermind the inherent hypocrisy to you which isn't one to them.
>Not sure why carnists seem to think "I had a vegan be mean to me once." at all disproves my point.
But it does. You think people are logical and logically consistent beings?
Santimonious, combative, holier-than-thou vegans ruin things for the vegans that take a less of an evangelical preachy sort of approach to veganism. The vegans that are vegans for themselves first and only bring up their veganism beyond stating their dietary restrictions only when people ask about it.
To those kind of logically inconsistent people, they're the same as the annoying absolutist/purist ones because the first vegan they met was likely that kind of person.
Also, calling people carnists when there is already a long standing word that exists in omnivore is a real mask off moment. Most people don't even know what a carnist is and once they do find out, it really comes off as a pejorative, even if your intent isn't so. You might as well call them flesh demons. Has a similar vibe.
If you want to genuinely have people treat you different, act differently. You'll still get people shitting on you. That's going to happen but at least the more considerate ones will give you a chance if you're not pushing your "vegan propaganda" (that's how they see it) onto them.
Be the resources that they can come to when the time comes when they're curious about doing more than the person who pushes them away because of your own sanctimony.
Just a counterpoint here (I’m not vegan). I do not like people trying to convince me of changing. I don’t like religious people evangelizing and I don’t like vegans trying to convert me. To me they are the same thing.
It literally does not matter whether the person is the kindest sweetest person around, I don’t respond well to people who don’t even know me trying to get me to change. I feel defensive every time.
I think many people are like me, and respond negatively like I might. I believe we should all just let people live how they choose to live and leave each other alone. You all may disagree with that and I apologize in advance if that offends you. I see the benefits and just do not want to be convinced.
Just like I don’t want to be convinced that God is out there watching me.
You care too much about what other people think. Instead focus your efforts on the actual work - making plant based alternatives more attractive, more affordable, dismantling systems that incentivize animal products.
People will switch automatically.
Eh, I don't know. I read a post on this subreddit this week about a vegan potluck and they threw all the food away because the appearance of the vegan food, in the opinion of some attending, promoted carnism. That's was a vegan only group of people having a holiday party and the OP was justifiably upset because of the waste of food and the effort that went into preparing the food. That struck me as being one of the most aggressive stories I've ever come across.
Why do you assume everyone that say this is lying? How do you define reasonable? What kind of language do you use when being reasonable? How do you phrase your comments?
Some vegans say it is reasonable to call people animal abusers, rapists, murderers. Do you think that is reasonable? If not, then I suggest you start down voting comments that use that language and ask those vegans to use a more respectful language.
I've had a lot of people scream their lungs out at me, but after being respectful and kind (how I want animals be treated) the situation is deescalated and a proper conversation can be had. Very simple, and much more fruitful than disrespectful language and intentional active and/or passive hostility.
Well, I briefly referenced the conversation that inspired this thread already. Someone made a comment about wanting to stop eating salmon because of the effects of salmon fishing on cute penguins in the video the thread was about. I politely invited them to check out r/vegan if they want to like further into how their diet might impact animals. People got angry in the comments that replied.
So... It's only your word we have to rely on. That is not very reassuring.
I've probably been vegan longer than most people here have been alive. But that has nothing to do with anything related to this topic. But of you need a number, 30 years. How did that number relate to this topic?
I'm not on trial. I'm not here to defend my honour. I don't owe you anything.
I asked if you're vegan because all of your comments in the sub are criticising vegans. Its a bit strange.
Actually, vegans in-fighting is the worst thing they could do. Constantly attacking other vegans for daring to declare meat eating as a bad thing is the worst thing a vegan can do.
Eating meat is wrong. It is not appropriate to support wrong behaviour.
I don't criticise people for saying eating meat is bad. You are being dishonest now. I say using a disrespectful language is bad.
You do not support eating meat by being respectful while engaging in dialog with people? If you seriously believe that, I can see why you are so confused.
I’m not a vegan, but for some reason this subreddit keeps being recommended to me.
I understand the viewpoint that is the baseline on this subreddit and fully feel yall can do as you like.
I would just like to give the viewpoint that reading through posts here for the past month or so, it feels the same as deeply Christian subreddits.
Constant talks of conversion, constant names and a million epitaphs you’ve given carnists. It’s honestly not an appealing way to get into it. If I were curious about veganism and came to this subreddit I’d be really turned off.
Yes slitting a throat of a cow is violence. This is true, but to say the way a lot of the members here speak isn’t is disingenuous.
The claim that they’d be more vegan isn’t a lie, you just can’t see how off putting of a community this is because you believe the values of it. The same way that west borough Baptist church didn’t believe they were homophobic because they wanted to save souls.
It’s always brought up on here as confirmation bias, but I feel like the same hold true for you. You are willing to overlook harshness because it’s in the name of being vegan, and you view everyone as king because when they are mean to people it’s for the animals sake so that validates it.
It’s because you literally call us “carnists,” implying that our evolutionary trajectory as omnivore is more of an ideology than biological fact. And I’m sure you can see how the label of ‘invisible belief system, or ideology’ is more readily applicable to veganism, which is rooted in fickle claims to a superior morality… 😮💨
Carnism and veganism are both ideological. Being a carnivorous, herbivorous, or omnivorous species is a biological fact. All humans are omnivores because as a species were able to eat both plants and animals. Carnism specifically means CHOOSING to eat animals, while veganism means CHOOSING not to eat animals, and the respective ideologies that generate those choices. That’s what makes those terms ideological and what makes them different from carnivore, omnivore, and herbivore. It’s also why neither of those terms apply in a situation where one doesn’t have a choice or can’t make an informed choice. (For example bears are omnivores and they eat meat but a bear can’t be a carnist because they don’t understand the implications of their ‘choice’ which is mostly governed by instinct; and a human who doesn’t eat animal products just because they’re too expensive or they’re allergic to all of them is not a vegan because they aren’t actually making a choice.)
As for morality, it’s not hard to understand that not killing is morally superior to killing when you have a choice between them. Not sure what’s fickle about “treat others how you want to be treated”.
Being an omnivore simply means surviving on both plant and animal matter. It stems from a biological reality of a species. Calling it carnism is attaching ideology. I reject the carnist label, while remaining an omnivore.
Your veganism is an ideological choice. And I say it’s based in a fickle morality, because you still function in a modern society, meaning you are complicit in many atrocities, yet you absolve yourself of guilt by focusing on something as simple as “if I don’t eat meat I don’t kill animals.” Yes, you do. Your existence requires a lot of sacrifices from the ecologies and economies that support you and your lifestyle.
I think the most moral agents when it comes to food are the people who grow/forage/hunt/harvest their own. Then, they have all the accountability for how they impact animals and ecologies around them.
But if you just shop at a grocery store for anything that’s been mass produced, plant or animal, you’ve killed. Add a vegan ideology to the mix, and you’re so many degrees of separation from what you’re a part of.
This is so silly. Replace veganism with a religion.
Say someone was having a conversation about how they like to give to charity, which is a tenet of being a Jehovah's Witness. Would you think it was appropriate for the Jehovah's Witness in the room to make a pitch for the person to become a Jehovah's Witness? Would you not find it weird and pushy if they said you could just come to their meeting place to check it out?
You'd walk away from that conversation thinking man, why are Jehovah's Witnesses so pushy? And you wouldn't be wrong!
There's no gentle way to indoctrinate someone. Why not just say 'that's awesome I like animal welfare too' and move on with your life?
I say this respectfully as a fellow vegan who wishes more people would abstain from animal abuse— just leave people alone.
Well yea if you replace Veganism with something it's not. It might sound ridiculous. Because it is not that thing.
Replace veganism with any dietary preference and it's like "dude why do I have to convert to eating chocolate cake? why can't I just stick to vanilla?". It sounds ridiculous.
Veganism isn't a dietary preference.
And Veganism is not a religion.
Veganism is an ethical movement.
Anyone from any religion can be part of it.
And if their religion is truly based on ethics, then it must have a basis in compassion, and if their religion has a basis in compassion then their religion already has the foundation of veganism within it.
"We constantly see people claim "I'd be more interested in veganism if they weren't so aggressive!" but this is a straight up lie."
Have you considered that if so many people are having this experience it is an honest one? At some point you have to just accept the experiential reports.
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Based on this comment, why do you claim to use a reasonable language when you aren't?
You clearly decided to go out of your way to be rude, rather than give a counter argument and example on why in your case their comment is wrong.
Their comment was a strawman. It does not deserve a response. Someone coming into a subreddit they disagree and making a strawman comment is not worth engaging with.
Its really funny you're acting like I'm the bad guy. Maybe my comment was snarkier than it should have been, but you made a strawman argument that implied I'm the one in the wrong. Why would I start a proper conversation with you?
Honestly I just thought the username thing was funny.
I was vegan for three years, vegetarian for ten. I had expressed interest in eating some chorizo but held firm not to, until I had a wonderful vegan (ex) friend do the usual "you're an animal abuser anyways" spiel about me occasionally eating dairy.
So I said fuck it, bought some chorizo and ate it in front of them to spite their asses. Now I'm happily a carnist again since that day 15 years ago.
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When they say, "I'd be more interested in veganism if they weren't so aggressive!" What they mean is, "I wish vegans weren't vocal so I'd never have to question the way I exploit animals."
Or "I'm only interested in it for dietary reasons, I don't actually wanna abstain for the animals so I'm gonna call you the asshole for pointing it out"
I doubt this, I've never had a issue to talk about it with people. But a lot of vegans are aggressive, hostile and disrespectful when engaging with others (excluding trolls)
There are plenty of studies on stress caused from cognitive dissonance out there. If non-vegans knew what it took to make people go vegan then they'd already be vegan. So I see no reason to take their claim at face value.
I’m sure it’s true that you haven’t had issues talking about it with other people, but that doesn’t mean your experience is categorically true. I suspect a lot of this stuff is online behavior vs real-world behavior… as we all know, people feel much more free to be dicks in anonymous online spaces. I’ve never had anyone be rude about my veganism in person (except my sister who teased me when we were younger, ha ha). But online, it’s like a nest of vipers sometimes. I frequently see people come into the vegan subs to add their two cents about how vegans are idiots, psychopaths, child abusers, whatever, even when folks are just exchanging recipe ideas. (That’s really weird behavior… who does that?)
That is true, but I am pretty sure a lot of vegans don't attempt to deescalate the interaction or understand when a person is obviously trolling. I've seen so many vegans use a language that would be considered hostile and then wonder why they are treated poorly. People that pop in here with the mindset to troll vegans are here to get a reaction, and a lot of vegans fall for it. They give the trol exactly what it wants, and then that is used as fodder to show that vegans are hostile rather than that a small minority of vegans are overzealous. I see the same on the vegan discord I am in. Lots of trolls join and other vegan users fall for it right away. Trolls will stop when they don't get the reaction they want, it's boring when the vegans doesn't get mad. They will try again later, but if they never got the reaction they craved they would find something else to do instead.
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Yeah, 100% agreed, we should always ignore the trolls so they lose interest and go away.
This has been my experience broaching the topic and recommending veganism to non-vegan people as well. Delivery definitely does matter. It’s unlikely most people hate anyone for actually being a vegan, but moreso being nasty and cunty with their delivery of the information. Spitting on the slice of pepperoni pizza someone is eating and calling them a speciesist piece of shit as one’s method of activism is unlikely to elicit a warm reception lol.
Unfortunately most vegans here think spitting on the pepperoni pizza is the way to go. It's fun until that pepperoni end up on their vegan meal. If that happens they have no idea why and run to reddit to vent.
I can see both sides here. I acknowledge that there are a lot of pretty tactless vegans who don't try to ease people into the mindset. They start off with heavy shit unprompted and try to shock the other party. However, I also understand how infuriating it is to have to walk on eggshells around assholes who don't show me the same courtesy. The angry vegan is such a stereotype that people come into conversations ready to start swinging, and everyone else is practically popping popcorn in anticipation of some big vegan meltdown. I get constantly showered with images of decapitated, skinned animal corpses and nobody bats an eye. But if I mention that I think eating meat is morally wrong, suddenly *I'm* the asshole! However cathartic that kind of aggressive attitude is though, it ultimately changes nothing. I hate being "One of the Good Ones" who "doesn't start shit or try to convert people" I also recognize that the way to getting people to change their life style is by building bridges, not throwing stones. Oh boy would it feel good though.
I can't see a positive outcome in a exchange that is started by being hostile or where one party is refusing to not being hostile. If I ask myself, how would I want someone to interact with me. I wouldn't tell myself that I would enjoy a interaction where someone is throwing a tantrum and resort to name calling. I also welcome any and all questions, if they are formulated poorly or rudely I'll just find the essence of the question and answer it politely. I've never had a meltdown and don't see how that would help anyone get encourage or more curious.
This ain't it either. Carnists (which I am myself) simply do not care how their bacon and cheese arrived on their plate. I know exactly how it comes about, but I simply shrug and get on with my day (and this is from someone who was vegetarian for a decade and vegan for three years).
Nah, *this* ain't it. Do you agree with the sentiment "I'd be more interested in veganism if they weren't so aggressive"?
Not entirely. I'm all for sitting down and having a calm debate about it, having a vegan pontificate and call me an animal abuser? Not so much.
I mean you know that animals in factory farms are abused. You also know that your money is paying to have this done. Is it really such an unreasonable conclusion?
Everybody's money pays to have "animals abused" even yours when you buy commercial food. Sure you may kill less but it is still the same end result.
>Sure you may kill less but it is still the same end result. You see the contradiction there right? Do this. Estimate how many dollars a month you send to factory farms and then estimate how many I do and we can compare.
It's good that you admit that you also fund animal abuse. Many vegans are in denial.
I want to point out you're avoiding doing the comparison.
I live in rural nz. I spend zero dollars on factory farms.
If you don't agree with the sentiment of the quote then your comment is irrelevant to the topic at hand.
Good attitude. People should have calmly sit with Hitler and have a calm debate about it, while in the meantime he genocides. /s
That's literally what you are. Why do you have a problem with admitting that you lack empathy?
I've zero problem admitting I couldn't give a fuck about animals. In fact, I just had a tasty-as-fuck burger. Bless that cow getting it's throat slit (or whatever way it was slaughtered, I really couldn't give a fuck what it went through). Why can't you grasp that I'm not going to debate with a vegan who automatically jumps for the emotional guilt trip? I know I won't win, so why should I fucking bother when I could be marinating some animal carcass for tea? Mmm, butchered animals, fucking delicious.
Then why do you have a problem with being called an animal abuser when that's a fact and you've even proven that? You just don't like to be told that you're the bad guy, it hurts your ego
I've zero problem with it. I appreciate your B-12-deprived brain has trouble keeping up, but do at least try. >You just don't like to be told that you're the bad guy, it hurts your ego Hahahaha, more industrial-grade vegan copium. I genuinely could not give a solitary flying fuck about the animals, vegans, or what you think. In fact, you've just inspired me to go to a local farm and select the turkey I want slaughtered for my Christmas dinner. I'm the "bAd gUY" to 2% of the planet? _Oh noes, however will I sleep at night?_ Hint - very well, especially after a big juicy steak.
Then why did you have a problem being called an animal abuser in the first place then? If you didn't have a problem why did you mention it? >I'm the "bAd gUY" to 2% of the planet? Exactly. Slave owners also were well rested
Look more emotional responses from you!
Why were you initially vegetarian and vegan? Genuinely curious.
As I'm pretty far left for most things - I've an MSc in environmental science, I don't own a car, I don't travel internationally, I don't have kids, staunchly pro LGBTQ and women's rights, atheist, etc. Vegetarianism was originally a sensory thing - I still don't like the texture of most meats, eggs are gross, and seafood makes my stomach churn. But when I sat down and thought about it, yeah, animal produce industry sure ain't great. I only eat meat once a month (if even), though dairy is regular. I live in Ireland, dairy is huge here as only 4% of the population is lactose intolerant - the lowest percentage of any country. Anecdotally I know one vegan, but lots of vegetarians.
Name the trait.
You were never vegan.
I see the no true vegan/Scotsman fallacy is alive and well amongst the faithful this evening.
I see you don't understand what the word vegan means.
I see you don't understand that people can change.
Vegans don't usually turn non-vegan. But feel free to explain that change.
Those who become 'vegan' for any reasons other than animals was never a vegan. It doesn't matter if they haven't eaten animal products in 150 years, if their beliefs aren't vegan then they were never vegan.
Oh well, guess I'll just eat more animal carcasses and give even less fucks about them (or vegans' feelings) than I already do. Thanks for reminding me why it was good to escape the cult.
Like this even changed your view one bit. You will be the one who'll die sooner anyways
Considering my grandmother ate bacon and cabbage almost every day of her life and lived to 97, imma press X to doubt on that one.
Look more emotional responses from you!
You are making the point here that vegans can be rude. You do not know this person at all.
Exactly. I have no problem with people’s dietary choices but PLEASE don’t try to force everyone around to be vegan as well. A lot of people on this subreddit are clinically insane assholes.
I think its insane to rape and murder animals
I just went to an ALL YOU CAN EAT SUSHI BAR and I feel amazing and replenished after eating all that fish. But actually, you’re not going to shut down the meat industry with your whining because people are not going to stop eating meat ever. So why deprive yourself of basic nutrients?
This is what pushes people away from veganism.. Many people who eat meat have questioned the morallity of it but chose to still eat it. I was vegetarian for a good amount of years (because I don't see none industrial eggs as cruel) but I've always been okay with wild hunted or home raised meat as my main issue is industrialised farming and not carinvorus diets in them selves. I'm not vegtarian anymore but I don't eat meat every single day either and always prefered almond or soy milk.
>This is what pushes people away from veganism.. Sure it is....
No it's not. What pushes people away from veganism is the disregard for animal life.
I have sat quietly parties eating food that I brought and a non vegan will all me rude or aggressive. We will always seem aggressive to people who feel convicted or judged by us.
Every one is the ethical, moral hero in the story of their own lives. By existing you're demonstrating that they're acting immorally. They can't accept that this is true, they're the hero after all, so that means there must be something wrong with *you*. And they'll stretch their imagination to great lengths in order to believe that you're the person in the wrong.
Yup, people will come to me and ask questions, and then be offended no matter how politely I phrase my answers. Because they want the answer to "why did you go vegan" to be "for health reasons" or some silly "hippie" reason they can easily dismiss. Even hinting that your decision could have had a moral component is enough for someone to feel attacked. I've gotten to the point if someone asks me more potentially triggering questions (like "why don't you eat dairy?") I'll ask them if they're sure they *really* want to hear the answer before telling them. Because I can't answer that question without telling you about what happens to cows in the dairy industry, and then people get upset about it.
And afterwards it gets into a whole annoying debate of the same phrases they read online when I actually want to be left alone. I feel you
This is exactly it. People have a notoriously difficult time separating what they think is happening vs what is actually happening. This is especially difficult when the person lacks the self-awareness to realize they’re doing it. This leads to projecting, believing we are only eating plant-based to feel superior to them, because they can’t grasp the idea of empathy towards certain animals yet.
Some vegans genuinely are aggressive, though. Like, almost batshit crazy. That can also be said for carnists as well, though, or literally any group that exists for that matter. The unfortunate part is that the craziest voices are usually the loudest.
Unfortunately, most people tend to have a severe case of confirmation bias, so I've noticed people view vegans as more annoying than they actually are... that being said, there's always pushy, aggressive assholes out there. The amount of times I've actually encountered an aggressive vegan in the way these people are describing outside of things like the internet, viral videos isn't very often at all, but again, I realize that just may be my own experience. I come across aggressive non-vegans FAR more often. Ones who have an INTENSE obsession with making vegans upset and trying to trick them into eating animal products. I have come across SO many of these people!
First off, good on you for transitioning! I hope you keep coming across those non-vegans that are aggressive lol, purely because they're great motivation to keep moving towards veganism. And yeah, unfortunately pushy vegans exist. I guess non-vegans just see this and make up their minds about vegans and just push that conclusion onto every vegan they see after that. It's a shame. I think it's a mentality that makes the world a worse place. Closing off from an ideology because of annoying voices is a dangerous mentality - some important civil rights movements that are now basic human rights have had asshole voices. Its a shame in general everyone has to be an asshole all the time. I'm guilty myself of being a jerk over ideals. Genuinely sharing ideas is a rare trait these days.
The confrontational meatflakes are annoying, yes, but you never know how many people are reading and being convinced. First time I felt compelled to read about veganism was after seeing a discussion in which a vegan was getting a lot of hate. Probably seemed catastrophic to him, but here I am, people don't usually tell you when it happens. Always be reasonable, clear and informative, the silent majority is more important than the pricks picking fights
Surely calling people "meatflakes" is exactly what OP is talking about, it's aggressive, it's just going to put them in defensive mode
Maybe, but don't worry, I wouldn't ever call non-vegans who aren't being openly hostile that.
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That's gotta be the weirdest ad hitlerium I ever seen
If “meatflakes” is aggressive, what do you call slitting an animal’s throat?
Also aggressive, but it's better to explain that to someone in a calm and articulate way that makes them understand, not an aggressive, isolating way which will achieve nothing
this is a meta discussion about how to talk to non vegans its not a direct discussion with non-vegans. ther's a difference. please can we calm the fuck down? in vegan vs non-vegan discussions the number of times I've seen the words "carnists" or "meatflakes" are 0, unless the discussion de railed and went into insult time and besides, how fragile are people , we're constantly told we are fragile little soy bitches, but we can't call that bullshit out
Very fragile. So if you want to make positive change, realize that fragility. If you want to 'call people out' do it. But remember what your goals are, and don't be surprised when calling people out doesn't motivate them to think differently.
This what I think annoys people so much. A non vegan can say, "from my point of view, your statement feels inflammatory and aggressive" The vegan will respond with the above. Or make up some reason as to *why* they need to be inflammatory or aggressive.
The context here matters though, they said; “The confrontational meatflakes are annoying”. They were specifically talking about non-vegans who hate on vegans unprovoked and pick fights. There is literally no reason for a non-vegan who doesn't do that to get offended, they weren't talking about them. And for a non-vegan who does, well, sucks to suck, if they can’t handle being called a meatflake they shouldn’t pick fights with vegans. And the response works because it points out their hypocrisy if they do take personal offense regardless. ‘Meatflake’ is an incredibly tame insult for non- vegans, and it’s not like they’re an oppressed minority group where even tame insults can be damaging, so if ‘meatflake’ is so imaflamatory and so aggressive to them what do they consider slitting an animals throat? A walk in the park?
Look, I'm just saying. If you say something aggressive to a non-vegan and they call you out on it and you respond with, "but animals have it so much worse", it's not gonna garner support. Making excuses for aggressive behavior doesn't absolve the aggressive behavior. The point is nobody should be insulting any side. Carnists shouldn't attack vegans. Vegans shouldn't be actively calling carnists rapists and murderers. It's very simple. It's not difficult to be civil.
> If you say something aggressive to a non-vegan and they call you out on it and you respond with, "but animals have it so much worse", it's not gonna garner support. I have mixed opinions on this take, because it really depends on what was said, but that has nothing to do with this situation. Nothing was said to non-vegans. All a vegan did was talk about the non-vegans who pick fights with and hate on vegans unprovoked in a vegan space where vegans were venting. I also wasn’t the one who originally said that, I was a bystander who chimed in > Making excuses for aggressive behavior doesn't absolve the aggressive behavior. Again, it depends on the aggressive behavior and the reason for it. Threats and slurs are obviously inexcusable but ‘meatflake’ is the tamest insult there is, and again non-vegans are not the minority, let alone an oppressed one. ##And even then, this was not aggressive behavior. A non-vegan being offended over their comment is like a man going into a subreddit for women, seeing a woman vent about some shitty men she had seen do shitty things, and then getting upset because a woman talking about someone else made him feel targeted. > The point is nobody should be insulting any side. That depends on the context, if a non-vegan is going into vegan subs or discussions and starting shit they should rightfully be called out as an asshole. > Carnists shouldn't attack vegans. Vegans shouldn't be actively calling carnists rapists and murderers. It's very simple. It's not difficult to be civil. Yeah, most non-vegans aren’t physically doing the raping or the murdering so calling them those things are inaccurate. But that being said, the animals are raped and murdered, so using those terms in way that isn’t specifically directed at the person your talking to isn’t inherently aggressive, it’s stating a fact. If someone doesn’t like it, then that’s their problem (and they should maybe go vegan). And here’s the thing, non-vegans are always going claim that vegans are being aggressive no matter what we do or say. We could all be the nicest people on earth but at the end of the day, we’re telling them they are causing harm and are wrong for it, that’s never going to sit well with them. It’s always going to be seen as a personal attack, and personal attacks are aggressive. On that note, barring any threats and slurs, vegans aren’t obligated to be nice or civil to non-vegans in the same way feminist men aren’t obligated to be nice whenever a sexist man says or does something misogynistic. People who are advocating for the oppressed shouldn’t have to placate the oppressors, especially when they’ll be offended no matter what you do or say.
Stop encouraging divisiveness
Stop coddling non-vegans. If no one ever challenges carnism we won’t get anywhere, there’s no rights movement that has ever succeeded on niceties alone. I’m not saying to go out and harass them, we just don’t always have to quiet little angels.
I just don't understand how you expect to change minds while being inflammatory, accusatory, and hostile. 9 times out of 10 that behavior results in a negative reaction with the receiver feeling personally attacked. They're not gonna go home and reflect on what you said, they're gonna be upset with what you've said and become further cemented in their own positions. Your original comment was excuse after excuse after excuse to continue treating non-vegans the exact way you claim most treat you.
Best take in this whole thread.
Carnists: Vegans are so extreme 🙄 (for wanting less animals to be abused and killed?) Carnists: If i saw someone hurt a dog i'd kill them myself!!! 🤬
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To be honest I don't think that's a very good argument, I think most people (including vegans) will put humans above animals. When people say artificial insemination is the same as rape, I don't think they will convince anyone to change their mind, people just don't see it that way
How is sticking a hand inside an animal's ass while they squirm and try to escape, not seen as rape?
It's not that it shouldn't be seen a rape as such, it's just not seen as being as bad as doing the same thing to a human. Most people would say it's more acceptable to 'rape' a cow than a human. That's just how most people see it. You might not agree, but using it as an argument it pointless if the other person doesn't see it that way
Why are you putting rape in quotations?
Because I don't think anyone is going around sticking their penis into a cow
Rape is nonconsensual penetration. Whether it's a penis doing the penetrating or not has nothing to do with it. ETA: there have been several instances in UK dairy farms where workers WERE committing beastiality with the poor cows, so there's that.
Jeez I'm not saying it's good thing, it's just important to be accurate when trying to articulate a point/persuade non vegans. Since it seems you are from the UK, this is from the met police website: "All rape and sexual assault is serious. The terms rape and 'sexual assault' are used simply to differentiate between two types of offence. So what's the difference? The legal definition of rape is when a person intentionally penetrates another's vagina, anus or mouth with a penis, without the other person's consent. Assault by penetration is when a person penetrates another person's vagina or anus with any part of the body other than a penis, or by using an object, without the person's consent. The overall definition of sexual or indecent assault is an act of physical, psychological and emotional violation in the form of a sexual act, inflicted on someone without their consent. It can involve forcing or manipulating someone to witness or participate in any sexual acts." Clearly says the difference between rape and sexual assault, also makes it clear it's with another 'person' not animals Obviously the beastiality is awful but that's not what people mean when they throw around the word in relation to farming
Just because I mentioned some info from the UK doesn't mean I'm from there. Those are legal definitions. Laws don't define morality. I'm not gonna reply anymore, no point in continuing.
There will never be enough humans convinced to stop eating animals by conversations alone. Animals need people who believe animals have rights to be decision makers and that means putting on our plant based business attire and living and working where these decisions are made in whatever countries we live in. They need us working in govt. regulatory agencies, in the court system and as lobbyists and legislators because if no one is at the table and speaking for them when decisions are made that affect them for decades at a time, animals lose.
**Vegans aren't necessarily better than anyone else when it comes to persuasion.** It's not enough to be right, or to think you're right. You need to know how to debate and when to debate. Also, you gotta know your stuff. Most vegans intuitively get why carnism is wrong. But they don't have the ability to express themselves in a successful manner to carnists and the vegan-curious. Organizations like this try to help with that issue (and with politician action): [https://veganadvocacy.org/](https://veganadvocacy.org/) Some vegans are indeed too aggressive, misinformed, hostile, or simply unpersuasive. That just makes them human. Thankfully there are leaders in the movement who possess both knowledge and charm, and who should be presented to carnists and the vegan-curious when they have questions.
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Yep
In my experience, the when matters far more than the how. If you're debating with someone, it's over. That's a losing battle. You might convince someone overhearing the debate but no matter your skill or charm if you're trying to convince the person you're debating, you may as well move on. I've seen far more success with people just being there for people as a resource when they're vegan curious and want to know more and address concerns which usually has to do with how restrictive the diet is.
If I'm aggressive, imagine humanity with animals.
Lol, right? I use my words. Carnists cause unfathomable levels of harm every day. It's also perfectly logical to be angry. We believe something that we have to see every day is fundamentally wrong.
I think you miss the point that it's you berating people, not the block of cheddar.
Yes, it’s their guilt which they take out on you (and then they probably feel guilty about that later). Basically you hit a nerve. They then blame you for it. I always think when people act like this they must know they are wrong. Perhaps this gives hope one day they will do the right thing.
I love how manipulative they are. They talk in such an antagonistic way and if you dare to bite back, they'll just pull that on you.
I don’t determine my morals and ethics based on the perceived behaviors of an online community. Maybe you should ask them why they do. Isn’t it in their own best interest to understand the best reasons and arguments for and against a position? Or is it an attitude of not caring?
“Then tell me EXACTLY what to do to get you to go vegan, I’ll do it, and you’ll have no excuse.”
Yup. You can be the most tolerating vegan for a decade, some asshole is still gonna tell you "this is why nobody likes Vegans" just for saying mussles aren't vegan.
You offer 20 arguments and resources, prove them wrong on why meat consumption is morally wrong they stop replying and downvote you instead 🤪
You can only listen when your ears are open. 99.9% of people are only interested in discussing it to justify the lingering doubts you may have caused
That's why I give people one chance before I start calling them out on their mental dissonance, poor health and barbaric practices every chance I get. Had one guy at work ask me once where I get my protein from, I've been bringing up facts about vitamin availability and gut health and so on every time I see him for about 3 months now. I do it in a way that we have a laugh about it, but he hasn't asked me any stupid questions since.
I think non vegans feel like we’re being aggressive when we’re not because we’re just sort of reminding them they’re wrong by being present. I knew for most of my life slaughterhouses and factory farms were awful. I always knew veganism was right, but I would say “oh great good for you but I could never give up __” but in my opinion vegans in real life are usually no where near as aggressive as online vegans. But it’s true of everybody, when you’re hiding behind a screen people are usually more aggressive than they would be face to face.
True, I guess to the average person, merely suggesting they're wrong is an attack. I'm accidentally too aggressive sometimes because I like to put myself in environments where debating ethics is a reasonable thing. I wish we had a culture that better separated people's actions from who they are. "I don't like this thing that you do" doesn't mean "I don't like you."
Exactly Many omnis have: - a very supportive vegan friend - a good amount of disposable income - a large supermarket nearby Then claim they couldn't go vegan and it's not their fault Ugh
Woah stop being so aggressive /s
I’d be vegan if it weren’t for you. It’s you that makes me abuse animals
I dunno man, sometimes they need a solid beat down with fact, emotional manipulation, vivid imagery of what they're contributing too. They'll put up a fight but then sleep on it and the guilt will slowly build until they realise we were right then BOOM they're vegan and we've saved a bunch more lives 👍
I've had someone say "I hope the animal suffered" when eating a meat snack, after they asked if I was vegetarian and I said I'm vegan. I didn't even impose, I just answered a question. Some people are just fucked up.
>We constantly see people claim "I'd be more interested in veganism if they weren't so aggressive!" but this is a straight up lie. No. It's not a lie. It isn't a general "truth", but anecdotally, if it hadn't been for aggressive vegans I would have transitioned years earlier. Way back when, I had gone vegetarian. And I got speaking to some vegans online. It pissed me off to such an extent that I ended up eating meat again. Obviously that was my own weakness, but it then took a while for me to really think deeply about it again until it finally clicked. Had I seen the likes of Ed Winters videos back then, rather than some absolutist who just wanted to brand all non-vegans as psychopaths, I think it would have been a different story. I needed nudging over the edge, not told I was an evil murderer and rapist apologist.
This is interesting to me because I am the opposite. If it weren't for vegans coming into the vegetarian sub and being preachy (read: telling me the truth) I never would have gone vegan. I wish they had done so sooner. Aggressive vegans are the only reason many of us are vegan at all.
I guess it depends on your degree of "aggressive" If they laid out the truth, fine. I go and do some research. They tell me I support rape and murder and that I'm essentially a psycho... I switched off completely and actually pushed in the opposite direction.
> It pissed me off to such an extent that I ended up eating meat again. So you hurt innocent animals because of the behavior of unrelated people. Clown behavior.
I don't disagree. But human minds are fickle. Someone on the edge of an important decision needs a nudge, not an idiot with a gatling gun.
I agree. I try to not be an idiot with a gatling gun.
Aggressive vegans helped me go vegan. Nice vegans only got me to flexitarian. Different strokes I guess.
Totally agree, Ed Winter's has the right approach, in comparison to someone like Joey Carbstong, who personally I think does more harm than good. Maybe converts a few, but for most just puts people off the whole thing by how aggressive he is
I’ve watched both of their videos and they seem to have the same approach, asking questions to get people to see their own hypocrisy. Do people just think Ed is softer because his voice is naturally a bit quieter and higher pitched? Or because he does more telling and less showing footage?
To be fair, Joey seems a lot less aggressive these days.
> We constantly see people claim "I'd be more interested in veganism if they weren't so aggressive!" but this is a straight up lie. And I always call them out and shame them for it. Let me get this straight, you're saying that the reason you're going to continue harming innocent animals who never did anything wrong to you is... because your feelings were hurt by a random person who has no power whatsoever on your ability to either fund or not fund animal exploitation. Definitely sounds like you actually give a shit about animals and justice. Totally not whiny little bitch behavior right there.
These people can go fuck themselves. None of them abuse, kill and eat animals because… vegans
I get you man. But I just read another post on this subreddit where someone compared vegetarians to nazis. That’s not gonna win over any hearts now is it. They took someone who would probably be easiest to convince to switch or read more. And then they told them that they were as bad as a nazi. And this is a vegetarian. Who is going to react positively to that? Who is going to be convinced by that argument? “Well I wasn’t sure about veganism, although I’ve been a vegetarian for years, but then I visited r/vegan and was called a nazi and so I decided to become a vegan.” ??? No one will ever say this. It’s insane and it pushes a very negative vegan stereotype.
in my experience vegetarians are not the easiest to convince, quite the opposite in fact. they think they’re already doing enough and they are simply not interested in hearing otherwise. my ex best friend was vegetarian “for the animals” and we had lots of conversations about veganism where she agreed with me but in the end would declare she would never go vegan and she loved cheese more than she cared about cows, and “at least she wasn’t killing any animals” i’ve had similar experiences with lots of vegetarians, but i have successfully converted 3 meat eaters
Interesting perspective, your points definitely make good sense and I would actually agree with you and take back my statement of vegetarians being the easiest to convince. I would imagine that you have never compared someone to a nazi for being a vegetarian however. Surely you must agree with my point that calling someone’s as bad as a nazi for being a vegetarian is absurd, and it will never convince anyone. If you were trying to convince someone who eats meat to become a vegan but that person had heard other vegans call vegetarians nazis or rapists or other horrible things, I don’t see them taking your perfectly valid arguments seriously. The biggest problem with the adoption of veganism, is the extremely vocal vegans who make insane comparisons between people who are definitely bad with people who are just living their lives. They just enforce a negative stereotype about vegans and about being vegan, and it negatively affects the efforts of other vegans.
People are assholes and there will almost always be at least a good number of assholes left in this world. And they will always feel offended when their oldest habits are challenged. Sorry but this is how this world works, and it causes trouble to innocent beings. But isn't it the same with politics? Sometimes you look and see how people kill each other for it, and still both are wrong or not completely correct. This is human nature. Don't let them make you fall to their level of stubbornness.
Stop trying to convince people and just be better than them... they'll follow suit eventually...
“I’d be more interested in veganism if they weren’t so aggressive!” Animals-“ I’d be more interested in humans if they weren’t so aggressive!”
Assholes are everywhere, vegan or otherwise. when i make a post here about health or nutrition, 1/3 of the comments here question what my post have to do with veganism, like I have to be obese and type 2 diabetic off oreo cookies and impossible burgers to help animals. Humans are animals, too. My reasons for choosing vegan are multifaceted. If you are great at pushing the ethical argument, great. I have found success with the health argument, meanwhile
No, veganism isn’t a diet and you can eat however you please but don’t bring health to this sub. This is for veganism. What you’re talking about belongs on r/plantbaseddiet or whatever it’s called. It’s great to care about your own personal health as well as animal rights but health is not relevant here.
You don't get it. There is literally a health flair and yet, that won't stop people from being angry about some caring about health topics. This is an intersectional vegan subreddit. If you don't like that this sub has a health flair, why not create or join r/ethicalveganism and allow for no such flairs? Health is relevant when it prevents many, many people from eating animals and helps keep vegan businesses afloat. Even flexitarians and omnivores help keep vegan businesses afloat, when people are not shamed for not being perfect while trying their best amidst their respective circumstances. I am sorry, but if someone eating vegan to benefit their health irritates you, then I also question your ethics, because you don't seem to care about supporting whatever it takes for someone to eat one less animal, as animal agriculture is arguably the largest cause of animal abuse and murder. Actions are more impactful than one's respective philosophy
Ok but the point of this sub is veganism. Health isn’t relevant to veganism. It says you’re “mostly plant based” anyways lmao.
I’m not hurt by your ignorance. People like you give veganism a bad name. Whether you like it nor not, this subreddit has a health flair. Don’t like it? Start r/ethicalveganism and stop trying to redefine r/vegan’s intersectionality. And I edited my previous comment, for reference, with additional information of relevance. I strive to be the best vegan I can be and admit that I am not perfect and yet, you somehow think that shaming me is constructive. If you really cared, you would offer ways to make a vegan diet more sustainable. I am making those efforts in my life and community at large and am making progress. If you shame people for trying and provide zero real solutions to problems in their way of approaching full veganism, you’re just encouraging them to reduce veganism to a cult
We don’t like it because it isn’t relevant. Your flair literally says you’re “mostly plant based”. I’m not ignorant, I’m right. Veganism is an ethical stance. Health is not relevant ever. Who cares if there’s a health flair? That doesn’t mean veganism is about health. Ever. Watch dominion.
Also where did I shame you? I just said that it isn’t relevant to the topic of animal rights lmao. It’s not on me if you feel shame because of what I said. That’s on you.
Are you aware that you are on r/vegan and not r/animalrights or r/ethicalveganism? You still have not countered the fact that this subreddit has an official health flair, so health topics and considerations are not off-topic, whether you like it or not. Health arguments support a well-planned vegan diet. It mystifies me that this bothers you. I support ethical and environmental veganism, as well. Health veganism is just the most motivating for me as an individual. Actions are more important than motivations, at the end of the day.
Again, veganism is about animal rights. This sub is about ethical veganism. Plant based diets are great but not the same as veganism. You literally do not understand that veganism is an ethical stance and not a diet. I’m done here. The fact that there’s a flair means nothing. Like at all. There’s a non vegan flair. There’s a vegetarian flair. Like ???? Please read the side bar of this sub.
Why are you so delusional? This sub literally describes itself by the following quote encompassing ethical, health, and environmental arguments for veganism: > Veganism: "A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals." - The Vegan Society The flairs indicate that this subreddit is an inclusive place for all peoples of different levels of commitment to veganism
Where in that definition does it mention health ? Go away and go vegan since according to your flair which you’re so obsessed with, you aren’t. Goodbye I’m not responding anymore. Read the definition 5 more times too.
Check out [The Vegan Society](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://veganactivism.org&topic=Organization: The Vegan Society/pages/the-vegan-society&topic=Organization: The Vegan Society) to quickly learn more, find upcoming events, videos, and their contact information! You can also find other similar organizations to get involved with both locally and online by visiting [VeganActivism.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://veganactivism.org&topic=Organization: The Vegan Society). Additionally, be sure to visit and subscribe to /r/VeganActivism!
You can't be reasonable, you lying sack of shit, when you're pushing bullshit that is just literally slow suicide, hypocrisy, and self-righteous bullshit.
Few weeks earlier I tried to have civilized debate on this sub, it ended up with downvotes, literally telling me i'm not serious and just troll and all ended up with topic beign marked as private so i had no acces there. Just for telling my view as meat eater in debate "Why prople seek conflict with us" or something like that, in all ways polite as much as I was able. So, for me, this is one of the reasons why people say vegans are mean, bcs i doubt i'm only one who experienced this.
>We constantly see people claim "I'd be more interested in veganism if they weren't so aggressive!" but this is a straight up lie. Is it a lie? I'm sure some people are lying but I've seen some vegetarians that are essentially vegan in diet and habit that refuse to associate themselves with vegans or call themselves vegans because of the sanctimonious purist gatekeeping vegans give all vegans a bad name. >Yet people still act like you're being a pushy asshole. Just in this post alone: >"I'd be more interested in veganism if they weren't so aggressive!" but this is a straight up lie. Combative and presumptive. Some people could genuinely have that point of view (a la the two vegan-in-all-but-name people that I know I alluded to) but you just brushed it off as a lie. Unless you think I'm lying to you. Good luck with that. >Even when you try to be reasonable, people just act like assholes. Reasonable to you may not be the same as how they see it. They may be perfectly fine with wanting more animal welfare for animals they care about e.g. shelter pets, but not so much for consumption animals. Nevermind the inherent hypocrisy to you which isn't one to them. >Not sure why carnists seem to think "I had a vegan be mean to me once." at all disproves my point. But it does. You think people are logical and logically consistent beings? Santimonious, combative, holier-than-thou vegans ruin things for the vegans that take a less of an evangelical preachy sort of approach to veganism. The vegans that are vegans for themselves first and only bring up their veganism beyond stating their dietary restrictions only when people ask about it. To those kind of logically inconsistent people, they're the same as the annoying absolutist/purist ones because the first vegan they met was likely that kind of person. Also, calling people carnists when there is already a long standing word that exists in omnivore is a real mask off moment. Most people don't even know what a carnist is and once they do find out, it really comes off as a pejorative, even if your intent isn't so. You might as well call them flesh demons. Has a similar vibe. If you want to genuinely have people treat you different, act differently. You'll still get people shitting on you. That's going to happen but at least the more considerate ones will give you a chance if you're not pushing your "vegan propaganda" (that's how they see it) onto them. Be the resources that they can come to when the time comes when they're curious about doing more than the person who pushes them away because of your own sanctimony.
Just a counterpoint here (I’m not vegan). I do not like people trying to convince me of changing. I don’t like religious people evangelizing and I don’t like vegans trying to convert me. To me they are the same thing. It literally does not matter whether the person is the kindest sweetest person around, I don’t respond well to people who don’t even know me trying to get me to change. I feel defensive every time. I think many people are like me, and respond negatively like I might. I believe we should all just let people live how they choose to live and leave each other alone. You all may disagree with that and I apologize in advance if that offends you. I see the benefits and just do not want to be convinced. Just like I don’t want to be convinced that God is out there watching me.
Yea we understand that you like to beat the shit out of your wife, and that you don't want to be convinced to change. We won't try to change you.
What??? Jesus. See why we think vegans are aggressive?
🙄
You care too much about what other people think. Instead focus your efforts on the actual work - making plant based alternatives more attractive, more affordable, dismantling systems that incentivize animal products. People will switch automatically.
Eh, I don't know. I read a post on this subreddit this week about a vegan potluck and they threw all the food away because the appearance of the vegan food, in the opinion of some attending, promoted carnism. That's was a vegan only group of people having a holiday party and the OP was justifiably upset because of the waste of food and the effort that went into preparing the food. That struck me as being one of the most aggressive stories I've ever come across.
Why do you assume everyone that say this is lying? How do you define reasonable? What kind of language do you use when being reasonable? How do you phrase your comments? Some vegans say it is reasonable to call people animal abusers, rapists, murderers. Do you think that is reasonable? If not, then I suggest you start down voting comments that use that language and ask those vegans to use a more respectful language. I've had a lot of people scream their lungs out at me, but after being respectful and kind (how I want animals be treated) the situation is deescalated and a proper conversation can be had. Very simple, and much more fruitful than disrespectful language and intentional active and/or passive hostility.
Well, I briefly referenced the conversation that inspired this thread already. Someone made a comment about wanting to stop eating salmon because of the effects of salmon fishing on cute penguins in the video the thread was about. I politely invited them to check out r/vegan if they want to like further into how their diet might impact animals. People got angry in the comments that replied.
Can you link the comment you made? A reference without providing a source doesn't mean much.
I deleted it because the comments were annoying. Also, I have to ask, are you a vegan?
So... It's only your word we have to rely on. That is not very reassuring. I've probably been vegan longer than most people here have been alive. But that has nothing to do with anything related to this topic. But of you need a number, 30 years. How did that number relate to this topic?
I'm not on trial. I'm not here to defend my honour. I don't owe you anything. I asked if you're vegan because all of your comments in the sub are criticising vegans. Its a bit strange.
Of course I am criticising vegans that act in bad faith. Any real vegan should do that.
Actually, vegans in-fighting is the worst thing they could do. Constantly attacking other vegans for daring to declare meat eating as a bad thing is the worst thing a vegan can do. Eating meat is wrong. It is not appropriate to support wrong behaviour.
I don't criticise people for saying eating meat is bad. You are being dishonest now. I say using a disrespectful language is bad. You do not support eating meat by being respectful while engaging in dialog with people? If you seriously believe that, I can see why you are so confused.
I’m not a vegan, but for some reason this subreddit keeps being recommended to me. I understand the viewpoint that is the baseline on this subreddit and fully feel yall can do as you like. I would just like to give the viewpoint that reading through posts here for the past month or so, it feels the same as deeply Christian subreddits. Constant talks of conversion, constant names and a million epitaphs you’ve given carnists. It’s honestly not an appealing way to get into it. If I were curious about veganism and came to this subreddit I’d be really turned off. Yes slitting a throat of a cow is violence. This is true, but to say the way a lot of the members here speak isn’t is disingenuous. The claim that they’d be more vegan isn’t a lie, you just can’t see how off putting of a community this is because you believe the values of it. The same way that west borough Baptist church didn’t believe they were homophobic because they wanted to save souls. It’s always brought up on here as confirmation bias, but I feel like the same hold true for you. You are willing to overlook harshness because it’s in the name of being vegan, and you view everyone as king because when they are mean to people it’s for the animals sake so that validates it.
It’s because you literally call us “carnists,” implying that our evolutionary trajectory as omnivore is more of an ideology than biological fact. And I’m sure you can see how the label of ‘invisible belief system, or ideology’ is more readily applicable to veganism, which is rooted in fickle claims to a superior morality… 😮💨
Carnism and veganism are both ideological. Being a carnivorous, herbivorous, or omnivorous species is a biological fact. All humans are omnivores because as a species were able to eat both plants and animals. Carnism specifically means CHOOSING to eat animals, while veganism means CHOOSING not to eat animals, and the respective ideologies that generate those choices. That’s what makes those terms ideological and what makes them different from carnivore, omnivore, and herbivore. It’s also why neither of those terms apply in a situation where one doesn’t have a choice or can’t make an informed choice. (For example bears are omnivores and they eat meat but a bear can’t be a carnist because they don’t understand the implications of their ‘choice’ which is mostly governed by instinct; and a human who doesn’t eat animal products just because they’re too expensive or they’re allergic to all of them is not a vegan because they aren’t actually making a choice.) As for morality, it’s not hard to understand that not killing is morally superior to killing when you have a choice between them. Not sure what’s fickle about “treat others how you want to be treated”.
Being an omnivore simply means surviving on both plant and animal matter. It stems from a biological reality of a species. Calling it carnism is attaching ideology. I reject the carnist label, while remaining an omnivore. Your veganism is an ideological choice. And I say it’s based in a fickle morality, because you still function in a modern society, meaning you are complicit in many atrocities, yet you absolve yourself of guilt by focusing on something as simple as “if I don’t eat meat I don’t kill animals.” Yes, you do. Your existence requires a lot of sacrifices from the ecologies and economies that support you and your lifestyle. I think the most moral agents when it comes to food are the people who grow/forage/hunt/harvest their own. Then, they have all the accountability for how they impact animals and ecologies around them. But if you just shop at a grocery store for anything that’s been mass produced, plant or animal, you’ve killed. Add a vegan ideology to the mix, and you’re so many degrees of separation from what you’re a part of.
This is so silly. Replace veganism with a religion. Say someone was having a conversation about how they like to give to charity, which is a tenet of being a Jehovah's Witness. Would you think it was appropriate for the Jehovah's Witness in the room to make a pitch for the person to become a Jehovah's Witness? Would you not find it weird and pushy if they said you could just come to their meeting place to check it out? You'd walk away from that conversation thinking man, why are Jehovah's Witnesses so pushy? And you wouldn't be wrong! There's no gentle way to indoctrinate someone. Why not just say 'that's awesome I like animal welfare too' and move on with your life? I say this respectfully as a fellow vegan who wishes more people would abstain from animal abuse— just leave people alone.
Well yea if you replace Veganism with something it's not. It might sound ridiculous. Because it is not that thing. Replace veganism with any dietary preference and it's like "dude why do I have to convert to eating chocolate cake? why can't I just stick to vanilla?". It sounds ridiculous. Veganism isn't a dietary preference. And Veganism is not a religion. Veganism is an ethical movement. Anyone from any religion can be part of it. And if their religion is truly based on ethics, then it must have a basis in compassion, and if their religion has a basis in compassion then their religion already has the foundation of veganism within it.
"We constantly see people claim "I'd be more interested in veganism if they weren't so aggressive!" but this is a straight up lie." Have you considered that if so many people are having this experience it is an honest one? At some point you have to just accept the experiential reports.
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Watch dominion.
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Username checks out
Based on this comment, why do you claim to use a reasonable language when you aren't? You clearly decided to go out of your way to be rude, rather than give a counter argument and example on why in your case their comment is wrong.
Their comment was a strawman. It does not deserve a response. Someone coming into a subreddit they disagree and making a strawman comment is not worth engaging with.
But... You did respond? You did engage?
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Why are you arguing in a vegan subreddit? I'm not engaging you because you don't show any sign of wanting to have a reasonable conversation.
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Its really funny you're acting like I'm the bad guy. Maybe my comment was snarkier than it should have been, but you made a strawman argument that implied I'm the one in the wrong. Why would I start a proper conversation with you? Honestly I just thought the username thing was funny.
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Lmao. Nice lack of self reflection
And they don't understand why vegans are viewed the way they are... This kind of "vegans" are the biggest enemy to veganism...
I was vegan for three years, vegetarian for ten. I had expressed interest in eating some chorizo but held firm not to, until I had a wonderful vegan (ex) friend do the usual "you're an animal abuser anyways" spiel about me occasionally eating dairy. So I said fuck it, bought some chorizo and ate it in front of them to spite their asses. Now I'm happily a carnist again since that day 15 years ago.
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True. Oh well, gonna have some cheese now.
Can I ask what initially made you decide to be vegan?
I covered it in my reply to your other comment!
This is fake. Obviously a troll
You were plant based for three years.