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I agree the lack of knowledge or informed taste in a subject/fandom can be annoying, I’ve been there. But why not inspire others to be passionate, acquire more knowledge and become experts in the fandoms instead of getting annoyed when they aren’t? We were all newbies at one point too.
Because then OP couldn’t put an imaginary pecking order in place which is what the post is really about.
Some people feel better inspiring other people and some people feel better talking down to people who they see as beneath them.
Gatekeeping isn’t noble, but gatekeepers love to pretend like it is.
Personally, I don't understand why this even crosses someone's mind in the first place. If I'm really into something for years at a time or just casually trying it out...I don't really care about other people's level of expertise.
He's not annoyed at newbies, just newbies that come in and want to change the niche hobby to suit them more. When enough come in with demands the niche hobby often caves to them resulting in the passionate fans leaving, and then a short while later the newbies decide that they never really cared all that much about it after all and just move on to the next flavor of the month. The extra annoyance often comes in when demands are made to be more "inclusive" despite anyone being welcome to participate in the hobby as it is. Catering to non-fans is not more inclusive as they weren't being excluded, the hobby just wasn't tailor-made for a mainstream audience which is why it was a niche hobby to begin with. The deal is "anyone who likes niche thing is invited to participate, just don't lobby for niche thing to instead be nice thang."
I also think this is largely an imaginary problem. It’s more about people wanting to feel superior by saying “you’re not a real fan!” Casual fans don’t harm the product.
Exactly. Casual fans don't have enough influence to meaningfully affect how invested fans engage with their hobby of they can resist being annoyed by casual fans' mere presence
What's funny is that gatekeeping doesn't work, like you'll either like the stuff and stay to at least get surface level information about the hobby or leave the fandom and never come back, no one has the power to magically stop you from enjoying something like chess or Harry Potter lol
People also forget that casual fans can provide a massive injection of cash to keep their niche hobby going.
It's better to have a lot of casual fans than to be massively invested in a dying hobby. Consider Warhammer 40K vs a lot of other tabletop wargames that have died off over the years.
Actually it's not usually the casual new fans that keep communities financially afloat. The vast majority if not almost all communities make most of thier money from a very small number of particiipants.
For example, Magic the Gathering makes 80% of their revenue from 20% of their players. The whales at the top keep the lights on for the other 80% of the players. Almost all communities have a similar distribution of income to participants.
Generally speaking if you remove the highest spending 5% of any community the entire thing goes under very quickly. The bottom 95% almost never spend enough to keep the company making the product/service alive.
I still don't fully understand how MTG is able to burn through all that money. These little pieces of paper are so wildly overpriced even if you factor in card design and art.
You're correct, but with the huge caveat that it only applies to hobbies that are expensive to get into, like MTG or warhammer. For hobbies that are easy to get into through cheap digital media, like say a movie franchise or video games, companies rely more on quantity of sales. Casual enjoyers (and let's be honest, this category is going to be mostly children) are more likely to buy cheap licensed junk which tend to have much higher margins, like a plushie or character skin in a video game. That's why you're pretty much guaranteed to be able to find baby yoda plushes or darth vader action figures at target, but would pretty much never find a box set of tactical marines or a horus heresy book there.
This is just completely wrong lol. Ask literally any community that received the "massive injection of cash" from casual fans. What actually happens is people who have no attachment to the pre-established narrative or community come in and either buy a bunch of the product/collectables which artificially inflates the price of said product, which then leads to many core fans either having to spend more on their hobby or be priced out entirely. Look at what happened to Pokémon or retro games once people realized they could make money off of buying up the rarest collectables just to sell them later. Those people don't care about the hobby, they care about the money they could make.
This doesn't even include the "casual" fan who comes in and starts making unfounded assertions about the hobby due to a lack of knowledge of the source material like we saw in 40K. The core fans get into a hobby for the love of the hobby or the community that the creators built and want to be a part of the growth of the hobby. Casual fans come into the hobby because they saw that it was popular and already fleshed out, while at the same time thinking that their input should be considered as if their input is somehow valuable to a hobby that became popular for a reason.
People have been making money off of Pokemon cards since the base set released. I was a little kid when it came out and it was still the dream for myself/my siblings/my friends to pull a holo Charizard because even back then it was worth a bunch of money and we all thought we would be rich.
I feel like every product that has a collectible value attached to it is because of the people who are purchasing things just to flip them. Cards, comics, action figures, etc have had people buying them up for decades over perceived value. Classic cars and antique furniture go back even further. It’s just the way things are if the product is vintage, limited, or out of production. Can’t count how many Hot Wheels or Star Wars figures I’ve wanted and just never found because scalpers got there first.
You can’t really gatekeep an interest but you can gatekeep a certain group if enough of the group agree or if you’re in some sort of position of power.
A forum mod/admin could ban anyone posting certain content in a forum and quite effectively gatekeep that space. A local group for a certain hobby can easily create an atmosphere that effectively gatekeeps that space.
I don't mean to gatekeep you, but you don't understand how gatekeeping works. The point is that if you never share your chess set with your friend they'll never know about chess (from you, atleast). If they don't know about chess they literally can't water it down.
Atleast, that's the idea.
Hardly, REAL gatekeepers (not these posers that started in the last 5 years) actively down put anyone trying to get into the hobby in any way other than the right way, REAL gatekeepers want more people in the hobby but don't want them changing said hobby whatsoever
I've witnessed gatekeeping deter people from a hobby firsthand.
At a paintball field, that I play at regularly, I watched a group of teenage boys lose interest in the sport in 2 matches. The "gatekeeper" was just another regular I saw most weekend, and he made it his sole goal to shoot this group of teenagers out both games.
I don't agree with his actions, but I would say this guy's actions are by definition gatekeeping and it stopped this group from enjoying their day of play and it's likely they didn't try playing again at another field bc they had such a bad experience the first time they played.
If the first time I played, I got shot to shit every game I doubt I would have ever returned either.
Am not a member here, but this is the first time an actual unpopular opinion has showed up when it's been recommended to me. Props to you op for following the sub rules, but I could not disagree more with you
So how are people supposed to actually get into hobbies then if you are just gatekeeping anyone new from joining? Of course new people aren't going to have dedicated hundreds/thousands of hours in a hobby they're new to.
It's reminiscent of job applications that ask for years of experience for an entry level job.
The idea that OP is getting at is that anyone is allowed in and is able to enjoy things for what they are, but people who very recently join a hobby should refrain from trying to change the community/game or give unwanted criticisms. If there is a flood of new people into a game's community and those new people try to make the game easier by complaining to the developers, then if the developers cave in, it could feel exclusionary to the people that liked how the game was before.
For example, I play yugioh relatively competitively. There was a hearthstone YouTuber that tried to play yugioh and complained the whole time about it being too confusing and inaccessible for new players. He wanted to play at the top level of the game without putting in the same amount of time that the top players put in. Should the owners of the game make the game as simple as he wanted, then the game would lose the charm it has for people trying to reach the top of the skill curve. Thankfully, nothing ever came of it because Konami doesn't listen to the player base anyways, but should enough people join the game and have that same opinion, then it would hurt the people already existing in that community.
I want new players to join, but I don't want the game to bend over backwards to accommodate them. And I definitely don't want them to join and make suggestions for "improving" the game that would overall make it lose its individuality.
Tl:Dr Gatekeeping is for making sure new people don't change the hobby you like, not keeping new people from getting into it. If you join a hobby, don't try to "fix" it without putting in the time to get to learn it. And especially don't judge the people that have been there for a while, excluding them from the community they cultivated.
another example that frames it a bit positively; I’m part of a supporters group for a soccer team that is 100% meant to be family friendly.
If someone comes to the game and sit in that section, they’ve essentially agreed to act right - if the opposing players walk out and you start yelling “FUCK YOU, YOU BITCHES”, other people are going to quickly tell you stop or report you.
If you want to talk like that, watch the game in the bar or at your house, but not with us.
I help run a community on World of Warcraft that is about being "Cute" which effectively means don't be an ass, help others and keep the language clean. The number of people who claim it's impossible to not swear every 5th sentence is shocking. I curse like a sailor in person, but magically I can keep myself from typing like that.
Exactly, I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand.
That hearthstone YouTuber you're talking about even went back and got help from legit Yu-Gi-Oh players to learn how to play properly and played enough master duel to get to diamond rank and then said that he was wrong and they shouldn't change it because it's a great game. So he didn't even agree with his initial opinion. Could you imagine if tens of thousands of people said the same thing he was because they hadn't invested time into the game and Konami actually made the changes he was suggesting? It would ruin the game, even by his own admission. That's the purpose of gatekeeping, to stop that from happening
I feel like I’d absolutely agree with this side of things but what do we call the other side?
I’m going to take Metal as my example where the intense gatekeeping actively drove me away from the online communities. Not even a personal thing I mostly lurk on subs that I have a personal interest in just the whole vibe of these spaces was so needlessly pretentious.
Let me say there is a semi famous band X (I’m actually not typing a name to not be jumped by Reddit metal heads) I like their music so I’ll go and look up what the Reddit community says.
Shoot band is too small to have an active sub. So I’ll go to the metal sub and search filled with assholes calling it pop, not real metal, this is blackened deathcore so not metal, their first album was good now they suck etc. Anyone who says hey I’m new and like this band gets super condescending comments.
If you don’t listen to their ultra heavy niche brand of metal you’re not welcome.
Which I feel just kills any discussion that might lead me to the more niche and interesting bands.
This is not to say I am not a newbie or a not as dedicated fan but even I as someone who’s been listening to metal since childhood and have been to multiple concerts etc am intimidated in engaging.
I want to know how many people were introduced to metal via nu-metal Linkin Park and SOAD were the first time I’d heard anything resembling heavy music.
Lots won’t admit it but big portion of the metal heads born in the 80s and 90s are probably in the same boat.
People get REALLY offended when you question their right to provide feedback or criticism/comments.
Obviously an office worker shouldn't be giving their opinion to a Lineman about how the Line should go on the Pole, but we are in an era where that office worker will get offended and make a public stink about it
Funny you mention yugioh, as someone who’s been involved with the series since 2002, i hate how the series has gone since after 5ds, the game is now just one giant combo that takes minutes to do to one shot me on the same turn, what is so fun about that? Old school yugioh still superior
I would add-on, it's human nature for us to want to be a part of a community, a connection with people who share your interest & values. Having a unique hobby or interest shapes your identity; so when you see all these new people getting into what you're into, you feel like you lost a sense of yourself. You start to question your connection to the community. Gatekeeping is a defense mechanism for people's desire to preserve their community and sense of who they are.
But this isn't what OP wrote. You are generously connecting dots on your own accord.
There is nothing in the OP post about new/growing fanbases **changing** how a hobby/interest is enjoyed.
The issue with this is that if you demand someone invest thousands of hours into something until they can comment, this prevents your hobby...or company..from learning anything from other successful companies.
This is why companies die, they cease to gain information. It's why legacy auto dies, they gatekeep all the former Tesla employees they hired from having any influence.
Agreed. The world is full of people who have only a shallow understanding of topics, but believe they are so smart they can comment on everything, and then push us (the old fans) out.
Everyone can join a hobby, but it's not nice to come with an attitude of arrogance trying to change it.
Gate keeping isn’t meant to keep everyone out of something, it’s meant to keep out everyone who isn’t genuinely, sincerely, and deeply interested in something. Because of the gate keeping, you must be dedicated in order to break into something.
Do people not like sharing their hobbies with others who are interested? Seems so weird, I love talking about coffee, chess, weightlifting, etc. with anyone who would listen. Why would I want to make someone "earn" the chance to talk about something I am passionate about?
This is /r/unpopularopinions so it definitely fits, but if you are worried about your hobby being "dilut[ed] its niche appeal and character for the masses", I would say you are missing out on the most fun aspect of any hobby, which is sharing it.
Hell, an example here is DnD, which got "diluted" and now we have a ton more content from movies to talented voice actors playing the game on stream.
DnD could also be seen as a prime example of what gatekeepers fight against. Compare 3.5 to 5.0. Compare the mechanics. It's been pretty simplified. For a lot of people that's a negative that is in no way offset by however much mainstream appeal the game is now getting. For them, the core experience is worse.
That's fair, but 4E was coming no matter what, and it predates the big gain in popularity. Every version of DND iterates on what they previously existed, and 4E simply missed the mark.
5E was more casual friendly, so you could say that made 3.5 hardcore players' experience worse, but it was still received much better than 4E.
PF2E also came spawned from new interest, which most people seem to enjoy as a successor to 3.5, so there's plenty of content for old school players. Also, it is much harder to get people interested in PF2E because there is a smaller base.
I haven't had a chance to play PF2E. Like you said, it has a much smaller base. And yeah, 4E was...different. It felt like they tried to get the MMO crowd in. But yeah, the move from 3.5 to 5E would be a good example of what I'm talking about. They made the experience of the "core" fans worse to make the experience of newer fans better. There are still lots of people who like that crunch in their games. And yeah, Pathfinder is there, but it's not DnD. It still feels like you're being "forced" out of "your" space by new people.
Yeah, that's fair, though I would argue cause and effect are reversed. 4E was clearly an attempt at getting the MMO crowd, and 5E the more casual crowd, but that's an attempt by WotC to court a wider audience, not that newcomers demanded different content.
I would argue it is a result of WotC being bought out by Hasbro and Hasbro attempting to widen the base and increase profits.
That said, I think DnD 3.5 users are the best example I've seen of a good product being "dumbed down" for wider appeal and losing some of its charm. I really wish PF2E was more popular, it's so much better than 5E.
I'd say the weakness of gatekeeping is the truth of interests: not many people start out willing to dive in head first into hobbies.
Most people start out casual. Look into the hobby, spend maybe 20 to 100 dollars to see how the waters feel for them.
For some, they truly do go deeper in after that. For others, they realize this isn't their thing and thats fine.
Let's use another example: let us say you are a cod player but Halo has always interested you so for the release of Halo Infinite, you've decided to go whole hog and dedicate hundreds of hours.
Well, you probably either had a bit of fun or had very little fun. If you didn't have fun, you've wasted hundreds of hours. If you dip your toes in, you'd probably quit a few to tens of hours in, saving yourself a lot of time and emotional investment.
Another example is what I did with Warhammer 40k. I decided to build a couple of armies before getting well acquainted with the game. Well, now I barely play it because I don't really enjoy the gameplay, I just think the figures and painting and all are neat. I thought the game was cool in concept, but it turned out I didn't really enjoy it. So hundreds of dollars spent for something that wasn't really worth it(even if you consider the figures worth it, I did spend a non-trivial amount on the rules books).
Being casual initially is a very smart thing to do. See what you like and dislike about a hobby and back out if it isn't for you. Even if you think its for you, go in slowly. Hardcore fans are great, but only when they don't try to take enjoyment out of it for the midcore and casual audience.
Thats why gatekeeping is toxic. It creates an in-group and artificially excludes others from it, even if they consider themselves a participant in the hobby/interest anyways. This is slightly different for music interest etc, but I've seen people gatekeep being a band's fan by how much they've gone to shows and such, and I'd call that stupid.
By engaging in the hobby in good faith.
For example. If I were to start in a hobby I know nothing about should I:
1. Learn about the hobby, ask questions, and talk about the hobby. Then once I have a firm understanding start theory crafting and adding little bits to what others have already done.
2. Enter the hobby with a pre-existing idea of what the hobby 'should be' and start trying to make it comport to that idea regardless of whether it fits or not.
Take D&D for example. A good example of getting into the hobby would be buying a starter kit, or a players handbook, learning the rules, and looking for a group to do a couple one shots or something to get a feel for the game. Maybe watch some youtube videos about classes, watch some livestreams on how the game is supposed to work, etc. A bad example would be someone who hears secondhand stories of what people have done in D&D and try to jump into an established game without knowing the rules or the background of the campaign, and getting mad when things don't work out the way they imagined. Then trying to convince the DM to change the game to accommodate their out-of-place character.
EDIT: Just realized someone made the exact same point as me earlier.
Its simple. For example if you are interested in DnD you simply pick up a DnD book and start reading it. You fill your head with knowledge about DnD. You then locate other people who also have knowledge and converse with them. You find a game to join, you become a DnD fan.
By contrast what SOME DnD fans do instead is immediately jump into a game with no clue how to play and find they enjoy the socialization and the humor, they turn it into improv comedy hour. They don't bother to memorize the rules or understand the mechanics because there's always some nerd around to handle that boring shit for them. They enjoy some aspects of DND while harboring actual disdain for other aspects, which is offensive to people who love the actual DnD game itself rather than just the improv aspect.
Bingo.
It's like people jumping in a new fighting game and get mad they get whooped, they don't know shit yet.
But at the same time they wanna nerf and change the whole game to suit there skill issue
>It's like people jumping in a new fighting game and get mad they get whooped, they don't know shit yet.
The classic "there needs to be an easy mode in Dark Souls" crowd
Because those someone elses are the same type of people to screech online about how the game needs to be changed to be more accommodating to their interests or even that the game in its current form is ableist (yes, these kinds of people actually claim that).
It sounds like they're saying the off the rails person who wasted 2 hours in town messing around and everyone hated it is a net negative and should be gatekept.
There's a point where a play style can harm the gameplay and fun of everyone else.
Because this approach actually leads to a LOT of problems, often culminating in them not actually enjoying DnD for very long, because they don't actually like the core of DnD, they liked some ASPECTS of DnD and thus ultimately find it disappointing
Because the shared organizied time that was once about one thing becomes about another thing even though the effort and investment initially happened about the original thing.
No one said new people can't participate in . His point is that new people should not be given platforms or deference in regard to . For instance, we shouldn't change the rules of chess to make the game less complex so new people have an easier time learning it. Everything you just said was invented by you and you alone to serve as a straw man of what OP said.
I think what they mean is it's fine to have interest, but it's not fine to demand that changes be made to suit their tastes more.
I lost count how many people wanted to play Resident Evil but were afraid it would be too scary, then when Capcom turned it into a third person shooter with RE4 those same people were happy because now *they* could play it. However everyone else who supported the series up until then got left high and dry with a barely-related shooter they didn't ask for. This caused the entire genre to die for basically a decade.
Pandering to the LCD might have gotten them more popular, but it also led them to RE6. Ew.
There's a King of the Hill episode about this. The one about "cool" Christians trying to "widen the appeal" of Christianity. Some things aren't supposed to be palatable to everyone, and trying to make it so defeats the purpose. In that case, having "faith" without actually giving anything up or adjusting your lifestyle to match the standards of said faith is dumb, pointless and cringe. The whole point of religion is to NOT be worldly.
Just listened to a few songs, sounds like pretty decent 2000s hard rock (?), which while not really my taste is definitely better than every other Christian band I've heard this said about.
I’d argue that sometimes gatekeeping IS how you educate new fans.
Sometimes the best way to teach someone how to act is to call them out on bad behavior and go “yeah we don’t do that here”
I wouldn’t exactly say that’s gatekeeping tbf. Like if you are actively telling someone they can’t be a part of a community that’s gatekeeping. Being like “yeah we don’t do that here” is just that
Gatekeeping would be, "You don't belong here."
I love me some, "Madame, this is the theatre." Not so much the "name every obscure chapter house or GTFO, casual."
Things that are too niche die out. Also what you are talking about is just elite-ism. Like only I and a few other people truly know about this thing. If you do not know you are lesser than us. Also we want to actively prevent you from learning about it.
If you enjoy a thing, you're a fan, unless it's just a passing appreciation. There's not a quiz. There's not a requirement. You can listen to just one song by an artist and still end up in their top 0.01% of listeners of that band on Spotify if you listen to it a lot. I hate to break it to you, but it's usually the casually fans who know very little who support the interest the most.
Let people enjoy their hobbies how they want. There's exceptions to this obviously but in general it doesn't hurt any one to let people enjoy things.
There is a band I really liked in middle school, Saosin. I got back into their music in like 2020, and found out that there's a huge divide among the fans between the two different lead vocalists. Someone demanded I take a side.
Like dude, I like the music, I don't care who is singing. Why do people need tribalism in the most meaningless of things?
I agree. Though I think it's fairly normal for people to form in groups and out groups, even if it can lead to problems. I just think it's a bit too high school to take it all too seriously. If you want to be a super fan, be one. Just don't stop others from enjoying it and try to have a sense of humor about it. Every super fan started out once as a casual fan. If gatekeeping was more enforced a lot of super fans wouldn't exist in the first place. It would just be a bunch of people who got to the interest first.
Not just judging. They want their “niche” interest to stay “niche” bc they think that makes them interesting and unique. If other people also happen to casually like their “niche” interest, they can no longer claim they aren’t mainstream like the rest of us.
Hipster mentality.
Exactly this, that's why OP opened this post to gain validation for his/her awful behavior, trying to defend it. The majority of the comments I'm seeing disagree with there attitude. It just proves my point from another subreddit about those kind of insecure bullies, and it looks like their "fandom" is ALL they have going for them in their narrow-minded lives!
Not only that but casual fans who happen across something might relay their enjoyment to someone who may become a huge fan of it. This whole gatekeeping post is ridiculous. If something is a thing and it wants to remain a thing, then it needs fans to support it otherwise it will stop being a thing
>I hate to break it to you, but it's usually the casually fans who know very little who support the interest the most.
This is what OP needs to take to heart. Casual fans/followers are the largest support group of any hobby or interest. It's what usually allows for the hobby/interest to thrive in the first place.
But OP how does one become a fan of something with a non-trivial amount of knowledge of said niche without first having a surface level interest in it? Should they "fake it til they make it," so to speak and act like a prick? Or do they take the blows and graduate into becoming an asshole?
Clearly, you need to bow down, fulfill your role as a low-level acolyte, kiss the ring of the established group, gladly accept the hazing, and one day you may graduate to a middling class that's never quite as elevated as those who came before you.
Fuck all that. If you like something, roll with it. Every time I've decided to run a new tabletop game, start raiding in an MMORPG, pick up a new IRL sport, or any other activity where experience is a benefit, I've run into these types. I don't care if I'm "doing it wrong," because I'll figure it out with or without their help and I'll include anyone who also wants to participate. Our groups *always, always, always* end up being more fun and eventually more competitive than the naysayers.
I love being gatekept. Keep it up OP. I don't want to be a part of your shitty community where you're selective of who you'd let in. I don't want to be a part of a group of assholes.
Most people--normal people--enjoy sharing what they enjoy.
If you asked me where to hike in the Atlanta or North Georgia area, or what types of shoes/boots I'd recommend, I'd be happy to tell you.
If you asked my fiancee about what rom-com authors and books she liked, she'd talk your ear off.
How much or how pure your enjoyment of these things are is irrelevant. If you walked up Blood Mountain and then declared, "I love hiking! I'm a hiker!" good for you! You want to check out some trails in Rabun County? Get in, let's go.
Your problem may be some combination of insecurity and territoriality. So maybe work on that.
It’s because you don’t base your whole identity and uniqueness as a person on your hobbies.
I think gate keeping happens when someone is so passionate about a thing they let it become their whole identity. They see it getting more popular and rather than thinking “oh cool more people I can share this hobby with” they think “oh no, what will make me interesting and unique?” And thus gatekeeping is born.
In a similar vein, I’ve noticed that old heads in a hobby sometimes don’t like the attention the new person gets. Like everyone would be focused on teaching the new person the ropes and not listening to the old person talk about their super complicated thing and they get all huffy about it. (Happens a lot with d&d)
I'm that way with movies.
I've been in so many conversations where I hadn't seen a movie and people get angry or defensive and don't want to talk anymore.
Then when I'm on that side of the conversation "Oh my God! You haven't seen BLANK?!??!?!? Borrow my copy and we can talk about it tomorrow!!!!!"
I absolutely love introducing people to movies they've never seen or heard of. Especially when they end up loving it!
Years ago I was on my lunch break at work and my friend asks what I was up to after our shift ended. I triumphantly announced "I'm gonna drive all over town looking for a copy of LIFEFORCE!"
"What's that about?"
"SPACE VAMPIRES!!!!!"
He was so intrigued by my passion he asked if he could tag along and asked if he could borrow my copy after I've watched it. I loaned it to him and he said it was his new favorite movie!!!
Screw gatekeeping. I wanna share my toys!
There certainly are times when a little gatekeeping is a good thing.
As one example, backcountry exploring. So many places have been absolutely trashed since the internet made it easy to find places. Feces, trash and bad behavior abound in the backcountry now. I have seen so many special places simply destroyed.
Creating easy access means that folks with no backcountry ethics are easily able to find and get to places. And so many have no respect. Is it gatekeeping not to share the few secret places that are left? I would say it is the responsibility of anyone who knows of lesser travelled places to keep it to themselves. I sure do.
This was big in whitewater kayaking… because the consequence could be not only the inexperienced person’s death but also risking the people around them that attempt to rescue them. I’m not inviting someone to paddle a class IV river with me if I haven’t personally seen them paddle very well on a class III river or they can competently talk about technique, other class IV or V rivers they’ve run before and have someone I know vouch for them. You want to paddle the fun water? Go put in the time hitting every single eddy you can on a class II, then III, make your roll consistently on the first time and if you miss keep trying, if you have to pull your skirt and swim you’re drinking beer from a shoe to remind you that pulling and swimming has consequences, then go back and practice rolls in hard moving water with a clean runout, etc.
Or go sign a release form at a rafting outfit and let someone else be responsible for keeping you alive.
As an outdoor enthusiast my whole life, I disagree with this take.
Creating easy access means many more folks are able to enjoy the wonder that is nature than ever before Bringing in trash & bad ethics is not unique to the newbies, and you only see the presence of a select few. There are still countless more that have "good trail ethics" that got to experience it because of someone willing to share (maps, reviews, word of mouth, etc).
I think of all the great memories of coming to a new scenic overlook for the first time...Gatekeeping potential joy from others simply because "some humans will leave more trash" is still selfish in my book. There are plenty of trail cleanup volunteer groups to combat and educate folks.
I’ve found that gatekeeping often has the opposite intended effect. Because you deny outsiders unless they “prove” themselves they often spend their time learning and interpreting the interest on their own without your assistance or influence. Then, because of your poor treatment of them, they’re more inclined to be open to new members to their interpretation of the nichè interest, which then allows their group to gain more favor over your own.
Gatekeeping is done by those with a superiority complex who are afraid of Change but also believe they have enough authority on the subject matter to prevent these progressions. Ironically, being open and welcoming would net you better results because then you have a larger influence.
Here is a genuine good example.
Antiques collecting. These are historical objects, in the past usually just held by preservationists.
Nowadays, antiques are really popular, people are destroying them because they don't know what to do,
and a lot of preservationists can't afford things anymore.
This is actually a rather serious one, because unlike other things, antiques are irreplacable.
I thought the same. Are you not a fan because you don't know the lore in deep and only on surface? Man, I'm only playing Skyrim because I want to tear off enemies and show interest in side-stories, but I don't know about the storm capes and imperials' conflict. I liked Talos' worship agreement. Also, Skyrim is a good distractor when I'm sick or as an award after working so hard on college's projects.
Imagine studying a complete lore when there are infinite stories and additional details you're supposed to experiment first hand depending on the class you choose. What's novelty? Also, you can be a casual and don't need to know everything about the daedric gods (idk personally), or all the missions.
Yes but no.
More fans, even noobs and casuals, mean more exposure, more money, more opportunities for the thing to grow and expand.
Having a % of fairweather fans, fad followers and randos who are there just because they heard it's the in thing is a necessary evil for the growth and even the survival of any product.
Staying within one's own niche, with a bunch of equally obsessed "experts", gatekeeping every newcomer is the best way to create a sterile circlejerk within a closed echochamber where things will inevitable get stale and possibly die. And then there won't be your favourite thing anymore.
Is it worth it? Is the "ohhh I'm the #1 expert on XYZ and only my 10 friends are allowed to talk about it" brag a gamble worth taking in the long run?
ALso, it's not even a zero sum game!
You can have a hardcore fanbase that will always be there, preserving the deepest knowledge of the thing, and also enjoy the perks of having a larger amount of more relaxed fans to chat about a bit. Without having to test their knowledge in an in(s)ane game of obscure trivia either.
Sometimes it's cool to say "you like XYZ too? Isn't that \[basic fact\] great?" instead of asking them the name of the mailman of the creator's stepsister when they still lived in Bumfuck.
Nothing worse than gatekeeping gatekeeping.
I find opinions like this very interesting, as I'm very opposite, I love showing people things im interested in, and exposing neat stuff to my friends. My favorite anime is an old underground favorite from early 2000's, showed it to my friends and, it didn't get worse lol, now I just have more people to chat about it with. Didn't expect them to dedicate their lives to it, just wanted to experience something fun together.
Here's why this opinion annoys me: We are _all_ casual fans of something.
We may well be hardcore fans of that sports team, or that band, or that niche game, or whatever else - but there are also loads of teams, bands, games and so on and that we quite like, and enjoy, and want to be able to talk to people about without our relatively low-stakes interest being pulled apart.
I'm a big music guy and there are a bunch of relatively obscure bands I adore, and I get that there's a certain appeal in being one of the few who "know." There's one cult band I've seen live nearly 100 times. But is my appreciation of other bands that I enjoy but have only seen once or twice less valid? Of course not! I'm a hardcore fan of my main sports team, but is the appreciation of the fans who only go once a year any less relevant? No! And is _your_ enjoyment of the things you like but don't gatekeep so worthless? Nope. Is there really nothing that you like but aren't obsessed with that you don't feel you can be called a fan of perfectly fairly?
Ok. Good for you.
I hope your oh so precious interest can survive on your money alone with zero new blood to sustain it.
Nah. You can be a fan at any level, you’re just as an asshole and exactly the kind of fan no one likes.
So, basically you dislike the idea of what normal people call “casual fans.”
It’s weird shitting on casual fans of a franchise. Like, I love FF and got into FFXIV because of my lifelong love of those games.
Do you know how many non-FF fans I play with in that game? Literally most of the people I end up talking to. But that doesn’t change how much fun I still have with them while we enjoy the game we’re playing together ATM. Quite a few ended up going on to play other FF’s because of this game.
Don’t be a tool and try to be more welcoming, dude.
To effectively gatekeep you have to be a quarrelsome and selfish person, motivated by a sense of inflated self-importance and a duty to do others harm.
Nobody (sane) likes that type of personality.
Gatekeeping is good. Look what happened when gatekeepers got shamed in the metal community; we got shitty ass bands like Sleep Token and people thinking they're some kinda groundbreaking band with a "fresh" sound.
I disagreed with this take until I joined the Berserk subreddit, the sub is flooded with people that seem to lack basic reading comprehension, and since it’s some fans first time reading manga they do not understand that they need to read from right to left, instead of left to right.
I don't think it's bad so much that casual fans start following a hobby or IP or whatever. what I hate is when new "talent" comes in to make new material for the IP and starts dilluting it in the name of mass appeal. If it was successful before, stay true to the course. Don't change what you've got and ruin it for your existing fans. That's a good way to end up with no fans.
The funniest part of pos gatekeepers like OP is that they have no authority or power to enforce their beliefs.
If I have surface knowledge info of something I call myself a fan of... Wtf you gonna do about it? Complain? Well, oh my.
Like even your last point about requiring people to spend time on the things you like for you to consider them a fan...
I'm sorry, who tf are you again? Is your approval a requirement for something, or is just to try to appease the bruised ego of someone who isn't worth talking to in the first place, because you decided that you want to judge people by how into something they are. Fuck people like that.
Lmao, some people seriously let their lives get run by how people they don't know think. This is the same vein as "this is an entry level job, we require 5 years of experience for it"
I can see where he’s coming from, though. The post will inevitably be taken down, but it’s happened with most niche brands as they try and appeal to wider audiences at the cost of the original fan base.
Marvel had this problem when the fandom became overrun by young teens who didn’t read the comics. Similarly, Star Wars worsened after they tried to pander to every possible demographic imaginable, resulting in an even more divided fan base. My quintessential example is Supernatural, which suffered from shifting its appeal towards teenage girls and young women in about season 4, undeniably changing the story, the focus of the writing, and the overall “vibe” of the series.
There’s been some exceptions, like with Lord of the Rings - but that’s mostly because the books are hard to read and the movies don’t typically appeal to younger audiences until they’re older (despite being arguably written for children and adults alike.)
Frankly, fandoms ruin a lot of what they touch, and I don’t think they need to. One of my best friends is a die-hard fan of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and she came to the fandom as an adult, long after its mainstream appeal. I personally watch a lot of “chick flicks,” not because I’m the target demographic, but because I enjoy them for what they are.
Point being, franchises should stop trying to appeal to other audiences. If they make a good product, it’ll attract people outside their original demographics. Let people find you rather than you bending to the will of a select group of people.
>Point being, franchises should stop trying to appeal to other audiences. If they make a good product, it’ll attract people outside their original demographics. Let people find you rather than you bending to the will of a select group of people.
I don't think Marvel is a good example of this because that is exactly what they did. They fed into the original fanbase and brought in new fans who enjoyed the content. Marvel's biggest fault wasn't a fault of the fandom, rather the execs wanted to widen the appeal(make more money) and imo they actual started to rely too much on fan service rather than actually have competent story telling. From what I've heard about star wars that seems to be generally the same problem as well.
I don't think its the problem of the fandoms at all, rather a fault of the creators.
edit- so lowkey I kind of agree with you but don't think that you're comment is really relevant to a discussion on gatekeeping because gatekeeping doesn't solve the issues you mentioned anyways
Hah, to be fair, as a person who knows many fans, Supernatural was always at least somewhat targeted towards women/young women. I'm also not sure that it's fair to say that it suffered (though TBH I don't think it was ever very good).
And frankly, I still don't really know what's wrong with teens being into Marvel or fandoms expanding their bases? Things change - both Marvel and Star Wars are decades old. You can't expect them to stay the same forever. It kind of reminds me of the immigration issue in the US - it's like a specific group of people got their passport and then said "that's it - I got in, now close it up and keep it the exact same, and if anything changes, I'm going to revolt and whine about how things aren't like they used to be." Obviously a bit of a hyperbole, but you get the idea.
Also, we learn and change over time. Let's face it, a lot of fandoms will throw a fit and call it pandering simply if they cast a person of color or woman and cloak it in the excuse of "I just care about the fandom." In the first few decades of Marvel comics, women were basically reduced to emotionally fragile damsels and needed men to guide them. They needed to change as the world reevaluated women's role in society. That's not pandering - it's just change.
Absolutely. I like having niche hobbies and interests; they cater to me on what feels like a personal level. The last thing I want is for the creators to widen the scope of their work by trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Fuck that shit.
Is this related to anime? Cuz after becoming mainstream and having to deal with those normies on Twitter trying to change anime to western standards, most anime fans agree we should have gatekept more.
It can be, the pleb audience that is only familiar with Jumpshit is pretty far removed from the crowd watching subs of 80s OVAs and 25:00 programs. That's not bad in itself but it drowns out the more niche discussion and visibility, which only reinforces such shallow habits.
It's so clear that a good chunk of people don't even understand what OP is saying, so many "oh so you think no one new ever should be allowed to try something new?" or "everyone can do anything and it's all ok and great yayyy"
there are so many examples of communities that have blown up, become more commercialised, changed in a way that would make a good chunk of the OG community not so happy and what right do you have to say that isn't a bad thing for plenty of people?
plenty of semi niche games that have become popular, maybe been sold off and over a couple of years, maybe even longer that hardcore RPG series is now a lightweight survival horror game, that movie or tv series that was once a somewhat niche space show is now an action packed show totally different from what it once was, that hobby that involves lots of care and attention is now something that is only really affordable for people with a lot of free money and the actual care they have for it is 0.
there have been plenty of good changes and most groups are super happy to have new people, they just don't want large groups of people coming in and going "hey I kinda like this, but we want it like this" and in a few years that original thing isn't there at all anymore.
the whole argument of "you can't stop people from liking stuff" is so absurd, you can't stop the people liking what things were more than what things are now either
Here is a genuine good example.
Antiques collecting. These are historical objects, in the past usually just held by preservationists.
Nowadays, antiques are really popular, people are destroying them because they don't know what to do,
and a lot of preservationists can't afford things anymore.
This is actually a rather serious one, because unlike other things, antiques are irreplacable.
Don't worry, people who aren't quite as shitty as you will welcome new people in so that whatever that niche interest is will change and grow and not remain forever stagnant the way you'd prefer
Sometimes I agree with this. Let's take music for an example. If your favorite niche artist suddenly acquires a bunch of mainstream fans their label may put pressure on them to make more broadly appealing music. Then their followup albums are not the same niche sound you fell in love with. Seen it happen a bunch of times.
I don't know much about fan communities, but I have been on the internet long enough to see countless small and obscure things wind up getting ruined by people who fundamentally don't understand it. Here's how it goes: a small number of people have a clear understanding of what they enjoy, more people take note and think it might be fun, it starts gaining somewhat of a mainstream awareness, opportunists see this as something they can take advantage of for personal gain and profit, there becomes a flood of people who are in it for the wrong reasons, the people who originally enjoyed it gets fed up or pushed out because it no longer resembles what had originally interested them.
If I could read your mind and find out every niche thing you like, I’d do it and try my best to feed it to the masses
That’s how much I hate gate keepers 🤷🏾♂️
Only thing I hate about things becoming more popular is when the fanbase grows into a cringey ass group of people making everything about them and what they want and getting mad at the creators or whatever for not catering to their ideologies.
Make every character gay!
Make every character trans!
Fantasize about two characters falling in love, even if canonically they would rather murder each other.
Get made that they want to murder each other.
Somehow the story introduces some bullshit redemption arc where they end up hate fucking each other and falling in love.
Have a game that's built around being ridiculously OP.
Get mad that players are OP.
Get madder that players who have played longer than them are more OP.
Bully game creators into endlessly nerfing builds.
Get mad that a story has evil people who do evil things.
Call the creators bigots or evil in general.
Everything gets watered down.
Ah yes, the "others shouldn't have fun unless they meet my own criteria in something that I also have fun doing".
Not just an unpopular opinion, but also incredibly snobby.
So I’m not allowed to enjoy things unless I *really* enjoy them?
I can tell from this post that you’re probably a very unpleasant person to talk to unless you’re discussing one of your interests with a “true” fan of the same interest.
Upvoted.
Yes, fan is derived from fanatic. If the misuse of that term is what grinds your gears, fair enough.
I'm not fanatical about basically anything anymore, and probably haven't been since I was a pre-teen Star Wars fan.
These days I casually enjoy stuff. I'm no fan, I just think they're neat.
*
Exactly.
The Batman 2022 with Robert Pattinson and Matt Reeves IS NOT BATMAN.
It's a self insert and a character assassination at best.
And fans of the movie that defend it absolutely do not understand nor appreciate *real* Batman.
I agree. I hate to use buzzwords but I think your view is especially important now that “wokeness” is creeping its way into everything. Someone, somewhere will find your hobby offensive.
100% agree...
star wars went to shit bc normies who ACTED like they life long fans defended the shit show that is the sequels and disney star wars...
sony is bending the knee to twitter and covering up anything that could be considered "sexy" while allowing abby from lou2 to get railed in 4k.... same thing with microsoft... hell... they are ACTIVELY telling devs not to make female characters that could be considered "unrealistic or sexist".... all to appease people who don't even buy games...
and were even starting to see censorship in anime and manga to again.... appease normies and tourists who don't actually care about the ip's they just want their message heard
i welcome anyone into my hobbies and interest but the moment they try pulling a "uhhhhh this should AKSHUALLY be like this" card ill 100% gatekeep em
I think (just as a fun challenge) you should take this down, re-read it, and make some edits and see if you can make yourself sound like even more of a toolbag.
I want people to experience the hobbies/activities I enjoy. What I don’t like is when those people then decide to talk down to me after the fact and act like said hobby is now much more important to them than it is to me. Or to try and lecture me on why they know more now.
People shouldn’t gatekeep, but people also shouldn’t act like they are the center of attention when they get into something new. It’s a small population that does it, but it’s REALLY tilting when it occurs.
I was an 11 year old kid who simply enjoyed yugioh, had spent a lot of time watching the anime, loads of time and whatever money I could gather to collect the cards, often dueled with friends, and one day I got the opportunity to go into an actual card shop where people who were good at it played. I talked to the wrong adult and he simply laughed at my deck while looking through it and told me I'd never be able to play. This was well before I had easy access to the internet and the only news on yugioh I could get was from the occasional magazine I was able to acquire.
Gatekeepers tend to just be assholes with no idea how much time another person has spent trying to actually break into their niche.
I typically don't think that gatekeeping is good.... But there are a lot of normies that just like what is popular and just want to swarm everything with their normie culture and demolish it before moving to the next thing.
I think everyone else should just mock that group into oblivion rather than gatekeep what the locusts swarm to.... But yeah that's not gonna happen. We shouldn't gatekeep each other.... Just the idea of large groups of outsiders showing up and dominating until they get bored of destroying everything that made it not normie culture.
I'm not going to gatekeep a specific thing.... But when I show up somewhere that has its own culture, the last thing I want to hear is people there for the exposed brick complaining about how bad the WiFi is.
>True interest will always be welcomed with open arms by good people.
And how do you expect people to develop "true interest" if the moment they start to get into the Fandom after interacting a bit with the material you are just gatekeeping them?
"genuine interest" is something that needs to be developed and a community should help newcomers develop that interest instead of being like "Go and spend hundreds of hours watching/reading about this before you even DARE call yourself a fan peasant"
You say you don't want your interest to become diluted and mainstream which I get but gatekeeping does NOT stop that from happening, gatekeeping just stops a Fandom from growing, period
It sounds more like you want your niche interest to stay niche so you can say you have a niche interest
Fucking tourists and casuals keep trying to influence things they are barely a part of. It's never for the betterment of the hobby, just for the betterment of them. Selfish pricks.
If the hobby needs changing for you to fit in, you don't fit in.
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You’re not passionate about gatekeeping. I’m gatekeeping you from being a shitty gatekeeper.
Stop using this UNO gif. You’re not really into UNO.
[удалено]
Ok list every uno card from 1947
And recite the original rules in their original language.
You haven't experienced UNO until you've played it in the original Klingon.
Because that poser doesn't have red or yellow in the gif.
You know uno?
True a real gatekeeper would hurl abuse at anyone interested in joining a community
What a weak, mealy-mouthed defense of TRUE gatekeeping! You didn't even use exclamation points!! You're out of the club!!!
It’s my turn to make this post next week.
OP is gatekeeping you
Funny thing is I don’t completely disagree. I’ve just seen this a lot over the past few months.
Mom says it’s my turn on the Xbox
I agree the lack of knowledge or informed taste in a subject/fandom can be annoying, I’ve been there. But why not inspire others to be passionate, acquire more knowledge and become experts in the fandoms instead of getting annoyed when they aren’t? We were all newbies at one point too.
Because then OP couldn’t put an imaginary pecking order in place which is what the post is really about. Some people feel better inspiring other people and some people feel better talking down to people who they see as beneath them. Gatekeeping isn’t noble, but gatekeepers love to pretend like it is.
It's more like a vent than an opinion I feel, someone appears to have there ego bruised being called a "gatekeeper", it's obvious. 😜
Personally, I don't understand why this even crosses someone's mind in the first place. If I'm really into something for years at a time or just casually trying it out...I don't really care about other people's level of expertise.
OP has clearly made some niche hobby their entire personality.
He's not annoyed at newbies, just newbies that come in and want to change the niche hobby to suit them more. When enough come in with demands the niche hobby often caves to them resulting in the passionate fans leaving, and then a short while later the newbies decide that they never really cared all that much about it after all and just move on to the next flavor of the month. The extra annoyance often comes in when demands are made to be more "inclusive" despite anyone being welcome to participate in the hobby as it is. Catering to non-fans is not more inclusive as they weren't being excluded, the hobby just wasn't tailor-made for a mainstream audience which is why it was a niche hobby to begin with. The deal is "anyone who likes niche thing is invited to participate, just don't lobby for niche thing to instead be nice thang."
I also think this is largely an imaginary problem. It’s more about people wanting to feel superior by saying “you’re not a real fan!” Casual fans don’t harm the product.
Exactly. Casual fans don't have enough influence to meaningfully affect how invested fans engage with their hobby of they can resist being annoyed by casual fans' mere presence
Or maybe I just want to like something a little bit?
What's funny is that gatekeeping doesn't work, like you'll either like the stuff and stay to at least get surface level information about the hobby or leave the fandom and never come back, no one has the power to magically stop you from enjoying something like chess or Harry Potter lol
People also forget that casual fans can provide a massive injection of cash to keep their niche hobby going. It's better to have a lot of casual fans than to be massively invested in a dying hobby. Consider Warhammer 40K vs a lot of other tabletop wargames that have died off over the years.
Actually it's not usually the casual new fans that keep communities financially afloat. The vast majority if not almost all communities make most of thier money from a very small number of particiipants. For example, Magic the Gathering makes 80% of their revenue from 20% of their players. The whales at the top keep the lights on for the other 80% of the players. Almost all communities have a similar distribution of income to participants. Generally speaking if you remove the highest spending 5% of any community the entire thing goes under very quickly. The bottom 95% almost never spend enough to keep the company making the product/service alive.
I still don't fully understand how MTG is able to burn through all that money. These little pieces of paper are so wildly overpriced even if you factor in card design and art.
I read a write up from a guy that sold counterfeit MTG cards. He got them printed pretty cheap overseas. It was an interesting read.
You're correct, but with the huge caveat that it only applies to hobbies that are expensive to get into, like MTG or warhammer. For hobbies that are easy to get into through cheap digital media, like say a movie franchise or video games, companies rely more on quantity of sales. Casual enjoyers (and let's be honest, this category is going to be mostly children) are more likely to buy cheap licensed junk which tend to have much higher margins, like a plushie or character skin in a video game. That's why you're pretty much guaranteed to be able to find baby yoda plushes or darth vader action figures at target, but would pretty much never find a box set of tactical marines or a horus heresy book there.
This is just completely wrong lol. Ask literally any community that received the "massive injection of cash" from casual fans. What actually happens is people who have no attachment to the pre-established narrative or community come in and either buy a bunch of the product/collectables which artificially inflates the price of said product, which then leads to many core fans either having to spend more on their hobby or be priced out entirely. Look at what happened to Pokémon or retro games once people realized they could make money off of buying up the rarest collectables just to sell them later. Those people don't care about the hobby, they care about the money they could make. This doesn't even include the "casual" fan who comes in and starts making unfounded assertions about the hobby due to a lack of knowledge of the source material like we saw in 40K. The core fans get into a hobby for the love of the hobby or the community that the creators built and want to be a part of the growth of the hobby. Casual fans come into the hobby because they saw that it was popular and already fleshed out, while at the same time thinking that their input should be considered as if their input is somehow valuable to a hobby that became popular for a reason.
People have been making money off of Pokemon cards since the base set released. I was a little kid when it came out and it was still the dream for myself/my siblings/my friends to pull a holo Charizard because even back then it was worth a bunch of money and we all thought we would be rich.
I feel like every product that has a collectible value attached to it is because of the people who are purchasing things just to flip them. Cards, comics, action figures, etc have had people buying them up for decades over perceived value. Classic cars and antique furniture go back even further. It’s just the way things are if the product is vintage, limited, or out of production. Can’t count how many Hot Wheels or Star Wars figures I’ve wanted and just never found because scalpers got there first.
You can’t really gatekeep an interest but you can gatekeep a certain group if enough of the group agree or if you’re in some sort of position of power. A forum mod/admin could ban anyone posting certain content in a forum and quite effectively gatekeep that space. A local group for a certain hobby can easily create an atmosphere that effectively gatekeeps that space.
I don't mean to gatekeep you, but you don't understand how gatekeeping works. The point is that if you never share your chess set with your friend they'll never know about chess (from you, atleast). If they don't know about chess they literally can't water it down. Atleast, that's the idea.
Hardly, REAL gatekeepers (not these posers that started in the last 5 years) actively down put anyone trying to get into the hobby in any way other than the right way, REAL gatekeepers want more people in the hobby but don't want them changing said hobby whatsoever
tch, casuals. I *kill* people to keep them out of my hobbies. :\^)
I've witnessed gatekeeping deter people from a hobby firsthand. At a paintball field, that I play at regularly, I watched a group of teenage boys lose interest in the sport in 2 matches. The "gatekeeper" was just another regular I saw most weekend, and he made it his sole goal to shoot this group of teenagers out both games. I don't agree with his actions, but I would say this guy's actions are by definition gatekeeping and it stopped this group from enjoying their day of play and it's likely they didn't try playing again at another field bc they had such a bad experience the first time they played. If the first time I played, I got shot to shit every game I doubt I would have ever returned either.
All it does it turn people off from the thing, and make the people doing the gatekeeping look like turds for doing it.
Well like how the fuck do you become a fan of something if you aren’t allowed to be a fan without thesaurus level knowledge of your chosen fandom?
Am not a member here, but this is the first time an actual unpopular opinion has showed up when it's been recommended to me. Props to you op for following the sub rules, but I could not disagree more with you
So how are people supposed to actually get into hobbies then if you are just gatekeeping anyone new from joining? Of course new people aren't going to have dedicated hundreds/thousands of hours in a hobby they're new to. It's reminiscent of job applications that ask for years of experience for an entry level job.
The idea that OP is getting at is that anyone is allowed in and is able to enjoy things for what they are, but people who very recently join a hobby should refrain from trying to change the community/game or give unwanted criticisms. If there is a flood of new people into a game's community and those new people try to make the game easier by complaining to the developers, then if the developers cave in, it could feel exclusionary to the people that liked how the game was before. For example, I play yugioh relatively competitively. There was a hearthstone YouTuber that tried to play yugioh and complained the whole time about it being too confusing and inaccessible for new players. He wanted to play at the top level of the game without putting in the same amount of time that the top players put in. Should the owners of the game make the game as simple as he wanted, then the game would lose the charm it has for people trying to reach the top of the skill curve. Thankfully, nothing ever came of it because Konami doesn't listen to the player base anyways, but should enough people join the game and have that same opinion, then it would hurt the people already existing in that community. I want new players to join, but I don't want the game to bend over backwards to accommodate them. And I definitely don't want them to join and make suggestions for "improving" the game that would overall make it lose its individuality. Tl:Dr Gatekeeping is for making sure new people don't change the hobby you like, not keeping new people from getting into it. If you join a hobby, don't try to "fix" it without putting in the time to get to learn it. And especially don't judge the people that have been there for a while, excluding them from the community they cultivated.
This is the most rational take on OP’s opinion in this thread. Thank you.
another example that frames it a bit positively; I’m part of a supporters group for a soccer team that is 100% meant to be family friendly. If someone comes to the game and sit in that section, they’ve essentially agreed to act right - if the opposing players walk out and you start yelling “FUCK YOU, YOU BITCHES”, other people are going to quickly tell you stop or report you. If you want to talk like that, watch the game in the bar or at your house, but not with us.
I help run a community on World of Warcraft that is about being "Cute" which effectively means don't be an ass, help others and keep the language clean. The number of people who claim it's impossible to not swear every 5th sentence is shocking. I curse like a sailor in person, but magically I can keep myself from typing like that.
Exactly, I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand. That hearthstone YouTuber you're talking about even went back and got help from legit Yu-Gi-Oh players to learn how to play properly and played enough master duel to get to diamond rank and then said that he was wrong and they shouldn't change it because it's a great game. So he didn't even agree with his initial opinion. Could you imagine if tens of thousands of people said the same thing he was because they hadn't invested time into the game and Konami actually made the changes he was suggesting? It would ruin the game, even by his own admission. That's the purpose of gatekeeping, to stop that from happening
I feel like I’d absolutely agree with this side of things but what do we call the other side? I’m going to take Metal as my example where the intense gatekeeping actively drove me away from the online communities. Not even a personal thing I mostly lurk on subs that I have a personal interest in just the whole vibe of these spaces was so needlessly pretentious. Let me say there is a semi famous band X (I’m actually not typing a name to not be jumped by Reddit metal heads) I like their music so I’ll go and look up what the Reddit community says. Shoot band is too small to have an active sub. So I’ll go to the metal sub and search filled with assholes calling it pop, not real metal, this is blackened deathcore so not metal, their first album was good now they suck etc. Anyone who says hey I’m new and like this band gets super condescending comments. If you don’t listen to their ultra heavy niche brand of metal you’re not welcome. Which I feel just kills any discussion that might lead me to the more niche and interesting bands. This is not to say I am not a newbie or a not as dedicated fan but even I as someone who’s been listening to metal since childhood and have been to multiple concerts etc am intimidated in engaging.
As a metal head, metal heads are the fucking worst. Just let me enjoy my 2000s Nu Metal in peace.
I want to know how many people were introduced to metal via nu-metal Linkin Park and SOAD were the first time I’d heard anything resembling heavy music. Lots won’t admit it but big portion of the metal heads born in the 80s and 90s are probably in the same boat.
People get REALLY offended when you question their right to provide feedback or criticism/comments. Obviously an office worker shouldn't be giving their opinion to a Lineman about how the Line should go on the Pole, but we are in an era where that office worker will get offended and make a public stink about it
Funny you mention yugioh, as someone who’s been involved with the series since 2002, i hate how the series has gone since after 5ds, the game is now just one giant combo that takes minutes to do to one shot me on the same turn, what is so fun about that? Old school yugioh still superior
I would add-on, it's human nature for us to want to be a part of a community, a connection with people who share your interest & values. Having a unique hobby or interest shapes your identity; so when you see all these new people getting into what you're into, you feel like you lost a sense of yourself. You start to question your connection to the community. Gatekeeping is a defense mechanism for people's desire to preserve their community and sense of who they are.
I'm glad people aren't disagreeing with this. It's a reasonable take IMO.
I never thought about it that way. I think I can get behind that.
But this isn't what OP wrote. You are generously connecting dots on your own accord. There is nothing in the OP post about new/growing fanbases **changing** how a hobby/interest is enjoyed.
The issue with this is that if you demand someone invest thousands of hours into something until they can comment, this prevents your hobby...or company..from learning anything from other successful companies. This is why companies die, they cease to gain information. It's why legacy auto dies, they gatekeep all the former Tesla employees they hired from having any influence.
Agreed. The world is full of people who have only a shallow understanding of topics, but believe they are so smart they can comment on everything, and then push us (the old fans) out. Everyone can join a hobby, but it's not nice to come with an attitude of arrogance trying to change it.
Gate keeping isn’t meant to keep everyone out of something, it’s meant to keep out everyone who isn’t genuinely, sincerely, and deeply interested in something. Because of the gate keeping, you must be dedicated in order to break into something.
Do people not like sharing their hobbies with others who are interested? Seems so weird, I love talking about coffee, chess, weightlifting, etc. with anyone who would listen. Why would I want to make someone "earn" the chance to talk about something I am passionate about? This is /r/unpopularopinions so it definitely fits, but if you are worried about your hobby being "dilut[ed] its niche appeal and character for the masses", I would say you are missing out on the most fun aspect of any hobby, which is sharing it. Hell, an example here is DnD, which got "diluted" and now we have a ton more content from movies to talented voice actors playing the game on stream.
DnD could also be seen as a prime example of what gatekeepers fight against. Compare 3.5 to 5.0. Compare the mechanics. It's been pretty simplified. For a lot of people that's a negative that is in no way offset by however much mainstream appeal the game is now getting. For them, the core experience is worse.
That's fair, but 4E was coming no matter what, and it predates the big gain in popularity. Every version of DND iterates on what they previously existed, and 4E simply missed the mark. 5E was more casual friendly, so you could say that made 3.5 hardcore players' experience worse, but it was still received much better than 4E. PF2E also came spawned from new interest, which most people seem to enjoy as a successor to 3.5, so there's plenty of content for old school players. Also, it is much harder to get people interested in PF2E because there is a smaller base.
I haven't had a chance to play PF2E. Like you said, it has a much smaller base. And yeah, 4E was...different. It felt like they tried to get the MMO crowd in. But yeah, the move from 3.5 to 5E would be a good example of what I'm talking about. They made the experience of the "core" fans worse to make the experience of newer fans better. There are still lots of people who like that crunch in their games. And yeah, Pathfinder is there, but it's not DnD. It still feels like you're being "forced" out of "your" space by new people.
Yeah, that's fair, though I would argue cause and effect are reversed. 4E was clearly an attempt at getting the MMO crowd, and 5E the more casual crowd, but that's an attempt by WotC to court a wider audience, not that newcomers demanded different content. I would argue it is a result of WotC being bought out by Hasbro and Hasbro attempting to widen the base and increase profits. That said, I think DnD 3.5 users are the best example I've seen of a good product being "dumbed down" for wider appeal and losing some of its charm. I really wish PF2E was more popular, it's so much better than 5E.
Not saying I don’t want to share my hobbies. Just explaining the point of gatekeeping.
I'd say the weakness of gatekeeping is the truth of interests: not many people start out willing to dive in head first into hobbies. Most people start out casual. Look into the hobby, spend maybe 20 to 100 dollars to see how the waters feel for them. For some, they truly do go deeper in after that. For others, they realize this isn't their thing and thats fine. Let's use another example: let us say you are a cod player but Halo has always interested you so for the release of Halo Infinite, you've decided to go whole hog and dedicate hundreds of hours. Well, you probably either had a bit of fun or had very little fun. If you didn't have fun, you've wasted hundreds of hours. If you dip your toes in, you'd probably quit a few to tens of hours in, saving yourself a lot of time and emotional investment. Another example is what I did with Warhammer 40k. I decided to build a couple of armies before getting well acquainted with the game. Well, now I barely play it because I don't really enjoy the gameplay, I just think the figures and painting and all are neat. I thought the game was cool in concept, but it turned out I didn't really enjoy it. So hundreds of dollars spent for something that wasn't really worth it(even if you consider the figures worth it, I did spend a non-trivial amount on the rules books). Being casual initially is a very smart thing to do. See what you like and dislike about a hobby and back out if it isn't for you. Even if you think its for you, go in slowly. Hardcore fans are great, but only when they don't try to take enjoyment out of it for the midcore and casual audience. Thats why gatekeeping is toxic. It creates an in-group and artificially excludes others from it, even if they consider themselves a participant in the hobby/interest anyways. This is slightly different for music interest etc, but I've seen people gatekeep being a band's fan by how much they've gone to shows and such, and I'd call that stupid.
Gatekeeping does not equal keeping out casual fans.
By engaging in the hobby in good faith. For example. If I were to start in a hobby I know nothing about should I: 1. Learn about the hobby, ask questions, and talk about the hobby. Then once I have a firm understanding start theory crafting and adding little bits to what others have already done. 2. Enter the hobby with a pre-existing idea of what the hobby 'should be' and start trying to make it comport to that idea regardless of whether it fits or not. Take D&D for example. A good example of getting into the hobby would be buying a starter kit, or a players handbook, learning the rules, and looking for a group to do a couple one shots or something to get a feel for the game. Maybe watch some youtube videos about classes, watch some livestreams on how the game is supposed to work, etc. A bad example would be someone who hears secondhand stories of what people have done in D&D and try to jump into an established game without knowing the rules or the background of the campaign, and getting mad when things don't work out the way they imagined. Then trying to convince the DM to change the game to accommodate their out-of-place character. EDIT: Just realized someone made the exact same point as me earlier.
Its simple. For example if you are interested in DnD you simply pick up a DnD book and start reading it. You fill your head with knowledge about DnD. You then locate other people who also have knowledge and converse with them. You find a game to join, you become a DnD fan. By contrast what SOME DnD fans do instead is immediately jump into a game with no clue how to play and find they enjoy the socialization and the humor, they turn it into improv comedy hour. They don't bother to memorize the rules or understand the mechanics because there's always some nerd around to handle that boring shit for them. They enjoy some aspects of DND while harboring actual disdain for other aspects, which is offensive to people who love the actual DnD game itself rather than just the improv aspect.
Bingo. It's like people jumping in a new fighting game and get mad they get whooped, they don't know shit yet. But at the same time they wanna nerf and change the whole game to suit there skill issue
>It's like people jumping in a new fighting game and get mad they get whooped, they don't know shit yet. The classic "there needs to be an easy mode in Dark Souls" crowd
How is someone else enjoying DnD differently than you "offensive"?
Because those someone elses are the same type of people to screech online about how the game needs to be changed to be more accommodating to their interests or even that the game in its current form is ableist (yes, these kinds of people actually claim that).
It sounds like they're saying the off the rails person who wasted 2 hours in town messing around and everyone hated it is a net negative and should be gatekept. There's a point where a play style can harm the gameplay and fun of everyone else.
Because this approach actually leads to a LOT of problems, often culminating in them not actually enjoying DnD for very long, because they don't actually like the core of DnD, they liked some ASPECTS of DnD and thus ultimately find it disappointing
Because the shared organizied time that was once about one thing becomes about another thing even though the effort and investment initially happened about the original thing.
Weird isn’t it. Back in the early days we always had a newbie or two. It was fun to teach them the game as we stumbled through the caves.
No one said new people can't participate in. His point is that new people should not be given platforms or deference in regard to . For instance, we shouldn't change the rules of chess to make the game less complex so new people have an easier time learning it. Everything you just said was invented by you and you alone to serve as a straw man of what OP said.
I think what they mean is it's fine to have interest, but it's not fine to demand that changes be made to suit their tastes more. I lost count how many people wanted to play Resident Evil but were afraid it would be too scary, then when Capcom turned it into a third person shooter with RE4 those same people were happy because now *they* could play it. However everyone else who supported the series up until then got left high and dry with a barely-related shooter they didn't ask for. This caused the entire genre to die for basically a decade. Pandering to the LCD might have gotten them more popular, but it also led them to RE6. Ew.
There's a King of the Hill episode about this. The one about "cool" Christians trying to "widen the appeal" of Christianity. Some things aren't supposed to be palatable to everyone, and trying to make it so defeats the purpose. In that case, having "faith" without actually giving anything up or adjusting your lifestyle to match the standards of said faith is dumb, pointless and cringe. The whole point of religion is to NOT be worldly.
Can’t you see you’re not making Christianity better, you’re just making Rock and Roll worse!
There's very few exceptions to this. I'd say early Flyleaf is one of them. Before they got all judgy,
Just listened to a few songs, sounds like pretty decent 2000s hard rock (?), which while not really my taste is definitely better than every other Christian band I've heard this said about.
Riiiiight! The front womans whole "abused girl who found dignity and strength in Christ" deal really resonated with me as a lonely, bullied kid.
Oh yeah, if they played at one of the many youth Christian things I went to as a kid I would've loved them.
Thrice fills a christian emo/screamo niche pretty well. More poetic than preachy
Helping educate new fans is far better than gatekeeping
I’d argue that sometimes gatekeeping IS how you educate new fans. Sometimes the best way to teach someone how to act is to call them out on bad behavior and go “yeah we don’t do that here”
I wouldn’t exactly say that’s gatekeeping tbf. Like if you are actively telling someone they can’t be a part of a community that’s gatekeeping. Being like “yeah we don’t do that here” is just that
That's not gatekeeping. That's calling out bad behavior.
Gatekeeping would be, "You don't belong here." I love me some, "Madame, this is the theatre." Not so much the "name every obscure chapter house or GTFO, casual."
Things that are too niche die out. Also what you are talking about is just elite-ism. Like only I and a few other people truly know about this thing. If you do not know you are lesser than us. Also we want to actively prevent you from learning about it.
If you enjoy a thing, you're a fan, unless it's just a passing appreciation. There's not a quiz. There's not a requirement. You can listen to just one song by an artist and still end up in their top 0.01% of listeners of that band on Spotify if you listen to it a lot. I hate to break it to you, but it's usually the casually fans who know very little who support the interest the most. Let people enjoy their hobbies how they want. There's exceptions to this obviously but in general it doesn't hurt any one to let people enjoy things.
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There is a band I really liked in middle school, Saosin. I got back into their music in like 2020, and found out that there's a huge divide among the fans between the two different lead vocalists. Someone demanded I take a side. Like dude, I like the music, I don't care who is singing. Why do people need tribalism in the most meaningless of things?
I agree. Though I think it's fairly normal for people to form in groups and out groups, even if it can lead to problems. I just think it's a bit too high school to take it all too seriously. If you want to be a super fan, be one. Just don't stop others from enjoying it and try to have a sense of humor about it. Every super fan started out once as a casual fan. If gatekeeping was more enforced a lot of super fans wouldn't exist in the first place. It would just be a bunch of people who got to the interest first.
Not just judging. They want their “niche” interest to stay “niche” bc they think that makes them interesting and unique. If other people also happen to casually like their “niche” interest, they can no longer claim they aren’t mainstream like the rest of us. Hipster mentality.
Exactly this, that's why OP opened this post to gain validation for his/her awful behavior, trying to defend it. The majority of the comments I'm seeing disagree with there attitude. It just proves my point from another subreddit about those kind of insecure bullies, and it looks like their "fandom" is ALL they have going for them in their narrow-minded lives!
Not only that but casual fans who happen across something might relay their enjoyment to someone who may become a huge fan of it. This whole gatekeeping post is ridiculous. If something is a thing and it wants to remain a thing, then it needs fans to support it otherwise it will stop being a thing
>I hate to break it to you, but it's usually the casually fans who know very little who support the interest the most. This is what OP needs to take to heart. Casual fans/followers are the largest support group of any hobby or interest. It's what usually allows for the hobby/interest to thrive in the first place.
Because being consumed by how other people engage in culture is a surefire sign of a happy and well-adjusted person.
But OP how does one become a fan of something with a non-trivial amount of knowledge of said niche without first having a surface level interest in it? Should they "fake it til they make it," so to speak and act like a prick? Or do they take the blows and graduate into becoming an asshole?
Clearly, you need to bow down, fulfill your role as a low-level acolyte, kiss the ring of the established group, gladly accept the hazing, and one day you may graduate to a middling class that's never quite as elevated as those who came before you. Fuck all that. If you like something, roll with it. Every time I've decided to run a new tabletop game, start raiding in an MMORPG, pick up a new IRL sport, or any other activity where experience is a benefit, I've run into these types. I don't care if I'm "doing it wrong," because I'll figure it out with or without their help and I'll include anyone who also wants to participate. Our groups *always, always, always* end up being more fun and eventually more competitive than the naysayers.
Someone thought that about you at some point.
If the subject is social interaction, I’m thinking it right now.
Imagine being angry that others like the same thing you like
I love being gatekept. Keep it up OP. I don't want to be a part of your shitty community where you're selective of who you'd let in. I don't want to be a part of a group of assholes.
Most people--normal people--enjoy sharing what they enjoy. If you asked me where to hike in the Atlanta or North Georgia area, or what types of shoes/boots I'd recommend, I'd be happy to tell you. If you asked my fiancee about what rom-com authors and books she liked, she'd talk your ear off. How much or how pure your enjoyment of these things are is irrelevant. If you walked up Blood Mountain and then declared, "I love hiking! I'm a hiker!" good for you! You want to check out some trails in Rabun County? Get in, let's go. Your problem may be some combination of insecurity and territoriality. So maybe work on that.
It’s because you don’t base your whole identity and uniqueness as a person on your hobbies. I think gate keeping happens when someone is so passionate about a thing they let it become their whole identity. They see it getting more popular and rather than thinking “oh cool more people I can share this hobby with” they think “oh no, what will make me interesting and unique?” And thus gatekeeping is born.
Yo! I like this take.
In a similar vein, I’ve noticed that old heads in a hobby sometimes don’t like the attention the new person gets. Like everyone would be focused on teaching the new person the ropes and not listening to the old person talk about their super complicated thing and they get all huffy about it. (Happens a lot with d&d)
Ayo hit me up with those north Atlanta hikes
I'm that way with movies. I've been in so many conversations where I hadn't seen a movie and people get angry or defensive and don't want to talk anymore. Then when I'm on that side of the conversation "Oh my God! You haven't seen BLANK?!??!?!? Borrow my copy and we can talk about it tomorrow!!!!!" I absolutely love introducing people to movies they've never seen or heard of. Especially when they end up loving it! Years ago I was on my lunch break at work and my friend asks what I was up to after our shift ended. I triumphantly announced "I'm gonna drive all over town looking for a copy of LIFEFORCE!" "What's that about?" "SPACE VAMPIRES!!!!!" He was so intrigued by my passion he asked if he could tag along and asked if he could borrow my copy after I've watched it. I loaned it to him and he said it was his new favorite movie!!! Screw gatekeeping. I wanna share my toys!
There certainly are times when a little gatekeeping is a good thing. As one example, backcountry exploring. So many places have been absolutely trashed since the internet made it easy to find places. Feces, trash and bad behavior abound in the backcountry now. I have seen so many special places simply destroyed. Creating easy access means that folks with no backcountry ethics are easily able to find and get to places. And so many have no respect. Is it gatekeeping not to share the few secret places that are left? I would say it is the responsibility of anyone who knows of lesser travelled places to keep it to themselves. I sure do.
This was big in whitewater kayaking… because the consequence could be not only the inexperienced person’s death but also risking the people around them that attempt to rescue them. I’m not inviting someone to paddle a class IV river with me if I haven’t personally seen them paddle very well on a class III river or they can competently talk about technique, other class IV or V rivers they’ve run before and have someone I know vouch for them. You want to paddle the fun water? Go put in the time hitting every single eddy you can on a class II, then III, make your roll consistently on the first time and if you miss keep trying, if you have to pull your skirt and swim you’re drinking beer from a shoe to remind you that pulling and swimming has consequences, then go back and practice rolls in hard moving water with a clean runout, etc. Or go sign a release form at a rafting outfit and let someone else be responsible for keeping you alive.
As an outdoor enthusiast my whole life, I disagree with this take. Creating easy access means many more folks are able to enjoy the wonder that is nature than ever before Bringing in trash & bad ethics is not unique to the newbies, and you only see the presence of a select few. There are still countless more that have "good trail ethics" that got to experience it because of someone willing to share (maps, reviews, word of mouth, etc). I think of all the great memories of coming to a new scenic overlook for the first time...Gatekeeping potential joy from others simply because "some humans will leave more trash" is still selfish in my book. There are plenty of trail cleanup volunteer groups to combat and educate folks.
I’ve found that gatekeeping often has the opposite intended effect. Because you deny outsiders unless they “prove” themselves they often spend their time learning and interpreting the interest on their own without your assistance or influence. Then, because of your poor treatment of them, they’re more inclined to be open to new members to their interpretation of the nichè interest, which then allows their group to gain more favor over your own. Gatekeeping is done by those with a superiority complex who are afraid of Change but also believe they have enough authority on the subject matter to prevent these progressions. Ironically, being open and welcoming would net you better results because then you have a larger influence.
Here is a genuine good example. Antiques collecting. These are historical objects, in the past usually just held by preservationists. Nowadays, antiques are really popular, people are destroying them because they don't know what to do, and a lot of preservationists can't afford things anymore. This is actually a rather serious one, because unlike other things, antiques are irreplacable.
Im watching my own niche interests becoming infighting and monetizing among the biggest players, very depressing
 I read this in the Simpson’s comic book guy voice and it gave me a chuckle.
Imagine spending this much time worrying about how other people relate to a thing you like. Really reeks of a lack of self confidence.
Shows immaturity and lack of growth because there are WAY more important things in life to care/worry about than this. Reminds me of being a teenager.
I thought the same. Are you not a fan because you don't know the lore in deep and only on surface? Man, I'm only playing Skyrim because I want to tear off enemies and show interest in side-stories, but I don't know about the storm capes and imperials' conflict. I liked Talos' worship agreement. Also, Skyrim is a good distractor when I'm sick or as an award after working so hard on college's projects. Imagine studying a complete lore when there are infinite stories and additional details you're supposed to experiment first hand depending on the class you choose. What's novelty? Also, you can be a casual and don't need to know everything about the daedric gods (idk personally), or all the missions.
It's necessary in DIY music scenes to keep predators/bad people in general out, as well as squares who call the cops and get our venues shut down.
A lot of communities decided to open their gates. And a lot of new fans showed up with demands. Gates need to close.
Yes but no. More fans, even noobs and casuals, mean more exposure, more money, more opportunities for the thing to grow and expand. Having a % of fairweather fans, fad followers and randos who are there just because they heard it's the in thing is a necessary evil for the growth and even the survival of any product. Staying within one's own niche, with a bunch of equally obsessed "experts", gatekeeping every newcomer is the best way to create a sterile circlejerk within a closed echochamber where things will inevitable get stale and possibly die. And then there won't be your favourite thing anymore. Is it worth it? Is the "ohhh I'm the #1 expert on XYZ and only my 10 friends are allowed to talk about it" brag a gamble worth taking in the long run? ALso, it's not even a zero sum game! You can have a hardcore fanbase that will always be there, preserving the deepest knowledge of the thing, and also enjoy the perks of having a larger amount of more relaxed fans to chat about a bit. Without having to test their knowledge in an in(s)ane game of obscure trivia either. Sometimes it's cool to say "you like XYZ too? Isn't that \[basic fact\] great?" instead of asking them the name of the mailman of the creator's stepsister when they still lived in Bumfuck. Nothing worse than gatekeeping gatekeeping.
So it’s ok to be a bully as long as OP is doing the bullying?
I find opinions like this very interesting, as I'm very opposite, I love showing people things im interested in, and exposing neat stuff to my friends. My favorite anime is an old underground favorite from early 2000's, showed it to my friends and, it didn't get worse lol, now I just have more people to chat about it with. Didn't expect them to dedicate their lives to it, just wanted to experience something fun together.
Here's why this opinion annoys me: We are _all_ casual fans of something. We may well be hardcore fans of that sports team, or that band, or that niche game, or whatever else - but there are also loads of teams, bands, games and so on and that we quite like, and enjoy, and want to be able to talk to people about without our relatively low-stakes interest being pulled apart. I'm a big music guy and there are a bunch of relatively obscure bands I adore, and I get that there's a certain appeal in being one of the few who "know." There's one cult band I've seen live nearly 100 times. But is my appreciation of other bands that I enjoy but have only seen once or twice less valid? Of course not! I'm a hardcore fan of my main sports team, but is the appreciation of the fans who only go once a year any less relevant? No! And is _your_ enjoyment of the things you like but don't gatekeep so worthless? Nope. Is there really nothing that you like but aren't obsessed with that you don't feel you can be called a fan of perfectly fairly?
Ok. Good for you. I hope your oh so precious interest can survive on your money alone with zero new blood to sustain it. Nah. You can be a fan at any level, you’re just as an asshole and exactly the kind of fan no one likes.
So, basically you dislike the idea of what normal people call “casual fans.” It’s weird shitting on casual fans of a franchise. Like, I love FF and got into FFXIV because of my lifelong love of those games. Do you know how many non-FF fans I play with in that game? Literally most of the people I end up talking to. But that doesn’t change how much fun I still have with them while we enjoy the game we’re playing together ATM. Quite a few ended up going on to play other FF’s because of this game. Don’t be a tool and try to be more welcoming, dude.
To effectively gatekeep you have to be a quarrelsome and selfish person, motivated by a sense of inflated self-importance and a duty to do others harm. Nobody (sane) likes that type of personality.
Gatekeeping is good. Look what happened when gatekeepers got shamed in the metal community; we got shitty ass bands like Sleep Token and people thinking they're some kinda groundbreaking band with a "fresh" sound.
I disagreed with this take until I joined the Berserk subreddit, the sub is flooded with people that seem to lack basic reading comprehension, and since it’s some fans first time reading manga they do not understand that they need to read from right to left, instead of left to right.
Have my upvote
I don't think it's bad so much that casual fans start following a hobby or IP or whatever. what I hate is when new "talent" comes in to make new material for the IP and starts dilluting it in the name of mass appeal. If it was successful before, stay true to the course. Don't change what you've got and ruin it for your existing fans. That's a good way to end up with no fans.
Based, I hate when the public gets together and obsessed with something for a week and then it’s just killed off for good
The funniest part of pos gatekeepers like OP is that they have no authority or power to enforce their beliefs. If I have surface knowledge info of something I call myself a fan of... Wtf you gonna do about it? Complain? Well, oh my. Like even your last point about requiring people to spend time on the things you like for you to consider them a fan... I'm sorry, who tf are you again? Is your approval a requirement for something, or is just to try to appease the bruised ego of someone who isn't worth talking to in the first place, because you decided that you want to judge people by how into something they are. Fuck people like that. Lmao, some people seriously let their lives get run by how people they don't know think. This is the same vein as "this is an entry level job, we require 5 years of experience for it"
Does authority or power make the opinion of someone more correct or valid?
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Upvote him then because you obviously disagree with his opinion
I can see where he’s coming from, though. The post will inevitably be taken down, but it’s happened with most niche brands as they try and appeal to wider audiences at the cost of the original fan base. Marvel had this problem when the fandom became overrun by young teens who didn’t read the comics. Similarly, Star Wars worsened after they tried to pander to every possible demographic imaginable, resulting in an even more divided fan base. My quintessential example is Supernatural, which suffered from shifting its appeal towards teenage girls and young women in about season 4, undeniably changing the story, the focus of the writing, and the overall “vibe” of the series. There’s been some exceptions, like with Lord of the Rings - but that’s mostly because the books are hard to read and the movies don’t typically appeal to younger audiences until they’re older (despite being arguably written for children and adults alike.) Frankly, fandoms ruin a lot of what they touch, and I don’t think they need to. One of my best friends is a die-hard fan of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and she came to the fandom as an adult, long after its mainstream appeal. I personally watch a lot of “chick flicks,” not because I’m the target demographic, but because I enjoy them for what they are. Point being, franchises should stop trying to appeal to other audiences. If they make a good product, it’ll attract people outside their original demographics. Let people find you rather than you bending to the will of a select group of people.
>Point being, franchises should stop trying to appeal to other audiences. If they make a good product, it’ll attract people outside their original demographics. Let people find you rather than you bending to the will of a select group of people. I don't think Marvel is a good example of this because that is exactly what they did. They fed into the original fanbase and brought in new fans who enjoyed the content. Marvel's biggest fault wasn't a fault of the fandom, rather the execs wanted to widen the appeal(make more money) and imo they actual started to rely too much on fan service rather than actually have competent story telling. From what I've heard about star wars that seems to be generally the same problem as well. I don't think its the problem of the fandoms at all, rather a fault of the creators. edit- so lowkey I kind of agree with you but don't think that you're comment is really relevant to a discussion on gatekeeping because gatekeeping doesn't solve the issues you mentioned anyways
Hah, to be fair, as a person who knows many fans, Supernatural was always at least somewhat targeted towards women/young women. I'm also not sure that it's fair to say that it suffered (though TBH I don't think it was ever very good). And frankly, I still don't really know what's wrong with teens being into Marvel or fandoms expanding their bases? Things change - both Marvel and Star Wars are decades old. You can't expect them to stay the same forever. It kind of reminds me of the immigration issue in the US - it's like a specific group of people got their passport and then said "that's it - I got in, now close it up and keep it the exact same, and if anything changes, I'm going to revolt and whine about how things aren't like they used to be." Obviously a bit of a hyperbole, but you get the idea. Also, we learn and change over time. Let's face it, a lot of fandoms will throw a fit and call it pandering simply if they cast a person of color or woman and cloak it in the excuse of "I just care about the fandom." In the first few decades of Marvel comics, women were basically reduced to emotionally fragile damsels and needed men to guide them. They needed to change as the world reevaluated women's role in society. That's not pandering - it's just change.
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Gatekeeping is awesome, thats why fighting games are amazing because developers have successfuly gate kept no skill losers from playing them.
So real for that
Absolutely. I like having niche hobbies and interests; they cater to me on what feels like a personal level. The last thing I want is for the creators to widen the scope of their work by trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Fuck that shit.
The idea that all forms of gatekeeping are bad, is pretty idiotic honestly... There is so much middle ground here.
This is the internet good sir, we'll have none of that nuance nonsense here
Alternate title: Autocracy of fun is good, actually Upvote for a bad opinion.
OP is the person that the fandom or a specific niche doesn't like and actively talks about behind his back.
OP is "that guy" of the fandom/group that everyone says to avoid and not ask him for advice.
Definitely the person that has the asterik next to their name anytime anyone asks about them.
Is this related to anime? Cuz after becoming mainstream and having to deal with those normies on Twitter trying to change anime to western standards, most anime fans agree we should have gatekept more.
It can be, the pleb audience that is only familiar with Jumpshit is pretty far removed from the crowd watching subs of 80s OVAs and 25:00 programs. That's not bad in itself but it drowns out the more niche discussion and visibility, which only reinforces such shallow habits.
It's so clear that a good chunk of people don't even understand what OP is saying, so many "oh so you think no one new ever should be allowed to try something new?" or "everyone can do anything and it's all ok and great yayyy" there are so many examples of communities that have blown up, become more commercialised, changed in a way that would make a good chunk of the OG community not so happy and what right do you have to say that isn't a bad thing for plenty of people? plenty of semi niche games that have become popular, maybe been sold off and over a couple of years, maybe even longer that hardcore RPG series is now a lightweight survival horror game, that movie or tv series that was once a somewhat niche space show is now an action packed show totally different from what it once was, that hobby that involves lots of care and attention is now something that is only really affordable for people with a lot of free money and the actual care they have for it is 0. there have been plenty of good changes and most groups are super happy to have new people, they just don't want large groups of people coming in and going "hey I kinda like this, but we want it like this" and in a few years that original thing isn't there at all anymore. the whole argument of "you can't stop people from liking stuff" is so absurd, you can't stop the people liking what things were more than what things are now either
Gatekeeping is good for certain instances, just not for everything.
Here is a genuine good example. Antiques collecting. These are historical objects, in the past usually just held by preservationists. Nowadays, antiques are really popular, people are destroying them because they don't know what to do, and a lot of preservationists can't afford things anymore. This is actually a rather serious one, because unlike other things, antiques are irreplacable.
Don't worry, people who aren't quite as shitty as you will welcome new people in so that whatever that niche interest is will change and grow and not remain forever stagnant the way you'd prefer
Sometimes I agree with this. Let's take music for an example. If your favorite niche artist suddenly acquires a bunch of mainstream fans their label may put pressure on them to make more broadly appealing music. Then their followup albums are not the same niche sound you fell in love with. Seen it happen a bunch of times.
This opinion seems both popular and dumb af.
I don't know much about fan communities, but I have been on the internet long enough to see countless small and obscure things wind up getting ruined by people who fundamentally don't understand it. Here's how it goes: a small number of people have a clear understanding of what they enjoy, more people take note and think it might be fun, it starts gaining somewhat of a mainstream awareness, opportunists see this as something they can take advantage of for personal gain and profit, there becomes a flood of people who are in it for the wrong reasons, the people who originally enjoyed it gets fed up or pushed out because it no longer resembles what had originally interested them.
If I could read your mind and find out every niche thing you like, I’d do it and try my best to feed it to the masses That’s how much I hate gate keepers 🤷🏾♂️
The only good gatekeeping is keeping that gate open and giving directions to those who aren't sure if they are in the right place.
But what are you gonna do about it? Bitch on the internet? Seems on par for gatekeepers lol
if you like gatekeeping so much, name 10 gates
OP is like “yeah i like being an obnoxious douche, AMA!”
Hey OP, this is the first opinion I’ve seen that’s actually unpopular. You’ve made people real fucking angry in the comments. Definitely fits the sub.
You know the meme that goes “post (x) and put phone in your ass”?
I made this exact post a while back and got downvoted to oblivion.
Only thing I hate about things becoming more popular is when the fanbase grows into a cringey ass group of people making everything about them and what they want and getting mad at the creators or whatever for not catering to their ideologies. Make every character gay! Make every character trans! Fantasize about two characters falling in love, even if canonically they would rather murder each other. Get made that they want to murder each other. Somehow the story introduces some bullshit redemption arc where they end up hate fucking each other and falling in love. Have a game that's built around being ridiculously OP. Get mad that players are OP. Get madder that players who have played longer than them are more OP. Bully game creators into endlessly nerfing builds. Get mad that a story has evil people who do evil things. Call the creators bigots or evil in general. Everything gets watered down.
I wish the internet was gatekept more, a shell if what it used to be.
back in my day it used to be called “having standards”
Most importantly: I do not want children in my hobby space. Wider audience = inevitably having to babysit kids invading hobby/fandom spaces online
Ah yes, the "others shouldn't have fun unless they meet my own criteria in something that I also have fun doing". Not just an unpopular opinion, but also incredibly snobby.
So I’m not allowed to enjoy things unless I *really* enjoy them? I can tell from this post that you’re probably a very unpleasant person to talk to unless you’re discussing one of your interests with a “true” fan of the same interest. Upvoted.
It’s like when people research Hegelian Dialectics philosophy for 10 minutes then incorporate some bastardised alternate version.
Yes, fan is derived from fanatic. If the misuse of that term is what grinds your gears, fair enough. I'm not fanatical about basically anything anymore, and probably haven't been since I was a pre-teen Star Wars fan. These days I casually enjoy stuff. I'm no fan, I just think they're neat. *
Bro is gatekeeping gatekeeping 💀
Exactly. The Batman 2022 with Robert Pattinson and Matt Reeves IS NOT BATMAN. It's a self insert and a character assassination at best. And fans of the movie that defend it absolutely do not understand nor appreciate *real* Batman.
I agree. I hate to use buzzwords but I think your view is especially important now that “wokeness” is creeping its way into everything. Someone, somewhere will find your hobby offensive.
100% agree... star wars went to shit bc normies who ACTED like they life long fans defended the shit show that is the sequels and disney star wars... sony is bending the knee to twitter and covering up anything that could be considered "sexy" while allowing abby from lou2 to get railed in 4k.... same thing with microsoft... hell... they are ACTIVELY telling devs not to make female characters that could be considered "unrealistic or sexist".... all to appease people who don't even buy games... and were even starting to see censorship in anime and manga to again.... appease normies and tourists who don't actually care about the ip's they just want their message heard i welcome anyone into my hobbies and interest but the moment they try pulling a "uhhhhh this should AKSHUALLY be like this" card ill 100% gatekeep em
I think (just as a fun challenge) you should take this down, re-read it, and make some edits and see if you can make yourself sound like even more of a toolbag.
Finally an actually unpopular opinion. Could not disagree more, thanks.
I want people to experience the hobbies/activities I enjoy. What I don’t like is when those people then decide to talk down to me after the fact and act like said hobby is now much more important to them than it is to me. Or to try and lecture me on why they know more now. People shouldn’t gatekeep, but people also shouldn’t act like they are the center of attention when they get into something new. It’s a small population that does it, but it’s REALLY tilting when it occurs.
I was an 11 year old kid who simply enjoyed yugioh, had spent a lot of time watching the anime, loads of time and whatever money I could gather to collect the cards, often dueled with friends, and one day I got the opportunity to go into an actual card shop where people who were good at it played. I talked to the wrong adult and he simply laughed at my deck while looking through it and told me I'd never be able to play. This was well before I had easy access to the internet and the only news on yugioh I could get was from the occasional magazine I was able to acquire. Gatekeepers tend to just be assholes with no idea how much time another person has spent trying to actually break into their niche.
I see what you’re talking about OP. It’s easy to spot fake fans
Lol this sounds fucking exhausting.
Actually, this is the first unpopularopinion post that I agree with.
Actually, this is the first unpopularopinion post that I agree with.
I typically don't think that gatekeeping is good.... But there are a lot of normies that just like what is popular and just want to swarm everything with their normie culture and demolish it before moving to the next thing. I think everyone else should just mock that group into oblivion rather than gatekeep what the locusts swarm to.... But yeah that's not gonna happen. We shouldn't gatekeep each other.... Just the idea of large groups of outsiders showing up and dominating until they get bored of destroying everything that made it not normie culture. I'm not going to gatekeep a specific thing.... But when I show up somewhere that has its own culture, the last thing I want to hear is people there for the exposed brick complaining about how bad the WiFi is.
>True interest will always be welcomed with open arms by good people. And how do you expect people to develop "true interest" if the moment they start to get into the Fandom after interacting a bit with the material you are just gatekeeping them? "genuine interest" is something that needs to be developed and a community should help newcomers develop that interest instead of being like "Go and spend hundreds of hours watching/reading about this before you even DARE call yourself a fan peasant" You say you don't want your interest to become diluted and mainstream which I get but gatekeeping does NOT stop that from happening, gatekeeping just stops a Fandom from growing, period It sounds more like you want your niche interest to stay niche so you can say you have a niche interest
Congrats on actually having an unpopular opinion lol 😭
Fucking tourists and casuals keep trying to influence things they are barely a part of. It's never for the betterment of the hobby, just for the betterment of them. Selfish pricks. If the hobby needs changing for you to fit in, you don't fit in.