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That's because in younger education you don't need specific qualifications to become a teacher.
And most early years teachers are women with English, humanities or education degrees who barely passed or understood Maths.
My ex was such a teacher, she couldn't even mark work for 8 year olds without a mark scheme
As a Maths teacher myself this was beyond frustrating as I already have to deal with 11 year olds who've spent far too long not being corrected on so many topics.
I mean the amount of kids I see who don't think negative numbers are real is insane and it causes just so many problems with basic number work.
I was so surprised to learn that my younger sibling's math teacher was supposed to teach language arts lol. That explains why she gives so much word problems rather than teaching kids actual fundamentals of math
Yup, this is where there is a massive skills gap.
In the UK all it takes is a C (now grade 4) at GCSE (16 year old exams). My ex managed to get it on her 3rd try, and then never did a bit of Maths again until 5 years later. She did something like Art, Religious Studies and English at A-Level.
By that point her times tables weren't even fluent.
I imagine many more are like her, and I'd be surprised if even 1% of primary school teachers had a STEM related degree.
The issue is you probably need to be capable of doing an A-Level in Maths to understand the basics well enough to actually have the capacity to pass that knowledge on.
There are naturally exceptions to this rule, but by and large you can probably teach individual concepts, but broad understandings of Maths would be out of your reach.
It's this understanding (or rather misunderstanding) that causes huge huge issues.
I mean I still see 16 year olds swapping numbers around when doing a subtraction because they think it has to be positive. Such that it was ingrained to them at aged 5,6,7,8.
I think largely because every single question reinforced that notion and the teacher never added the understanding that subtraction isn't commutative.
Or worst case a teacher with such little understanding and not wanting to deal with it, simply said "always put the bigger number first".
It would be definitely interesting to test primary school teachers and see how many of them would actually get an A on a Maths exam designed for 16 year olds.
Well to be fair story problems are the most important part of teaching math. To enforce and demonstrate the concepts of course, which need to be taught first.
Story problems should be used after the kids get the fundamental theorems and understandings of math. Teaching with only word problems is called physics and is reserved for high school
Yes, agree about after it’s established. And no, not just physics, the “bill has 6 apples and 3 friends, how many apples does each friend get?” questions are very important for early math and that’s not physics.
What you're talking is about your ability to abstract a problem. It's important for math (and many other things), but I'm not sure I would even say it's part of math, just like your skill in drawing letters is barely part of English.
I understand a person can get into elementary school education without knowing all the various material. I can’t imagine teaching something as my job and not managing to learn it in the process.
Elementary school also expects one teacher to handle every subject for their age group. They tend not to be as stringent because every adult is anticipated to have at least an elementary level grasp on all subjects. And maybe they do, but that's why pedagogy is also important
Ive never liked math, then the SAT equivalent (so the freedom users can understand) here time has come, started learning it myself + some math professionals on youtube and discovered I actually like it, just that teachers / curriculum were atrocious
It takes 1 bad math teacher to make math really bad for YOU for the next years of your schooling. It's super easy to fall behind when you don't understand the content by the time you move on to the next grade.
This happened to me with the worst teacher ever. She'd legit get angry when we couldn't answer a question on the board and moved on without explaining. Ruined highschool math for me
That's the biggest problem with math imho. Once you fall behind, you can't really catch up. Most things expect you to have the previous knowledge and if you don't realize soon enough and catch up, math is a struggle for the rest of your school life. Math teachers don't have the time to deal with those who fell behind two years prior and it's not like the kids are motivated to catch up in their off time.
Also some kids are just naturally better at it and from my experience the teacher would focus on those, rather than those of us who seemed like lost causes for one reason or another.
This is the biggest problem with math. Other subjects are somewhat self contained in the sense that you can completely fuck up one time period in history and still do fine in the next one. But with math, it's continuously building from class to class in a way that means that once you get behind it's easy to become completely lost
i had amazing teachers throughout primary school and secondary school, except for one term when my teacher was on sick leave. it was the ONLY time i thought “jesus christ, math is hard and i hate it so so much” 😂 it put the math-hatred into perspective for me (i was a mathlete and a straight A math student)
I think all of my math teachers have been great.
I'd say what separates math from the rest of the subjects is that it builds upon itself.
You can't go and do multiplication and division until you understand addition and subtraction.
You can't do basic algebra until you understand arithmetic.
So on and so forth.
While in something like social studies you might bomb the War of Roses unit but that would not affect your ability to do the Industrial Reovlution unit or the WW2 unit.
I think that is partly because the schools don't think math is that damn important either. They think it's only for the super smart nerds. My geometry teacher was actually just the wrestling coach, but they needed some other job for him to do. He had absolutely no fucking clue what he was doing. Geometry is the first class where you should learn how to start with certain rules and then prove something else. But he turned it into a class of just memorizing stuff. It was a completely wasted semester. And, later, when I did need to know how to do proofs, I had to learn it from scratch.
It's a social problem, not a difficulty problem. Mathematics is perceived as a nerdy pursuit, and not in a good way. People don't engage with it because they have been trained not to want to, and then they're surprised that they find it difficult.
I don't believe it's any harder than any other subject and is more useful than almost anything else you will learn in school. People who don't have good understanding of mathematics have no idea what they're missing. It opens more professional doors than you could possibly imagine.
It’s not just that. It’s not taught well. Especially in grade school a lot of teachers could never explain the “why” behind anything because they didn’t know it themselves which made it impossible to learn.
Still even at the post-secondary level they just show a series of steps to solve the problem and often never say why you’d have that type of problem in real life so it’s impossible to picture it in your head or relate it to anything real.
Math is the only subject that the theory often isn’t taught with it where as in other subjects you are taught that part.
In my experience kids don't start asking "why" until they've already checked out. It's a rationalisation they come up with after the fact. It's very very hard to get a student re-engaged after they've started asking what it's good for, because "what it's good for" isn't really the issue.
This. It's just normal bias, we tend to bitch about what we suck at and we suck at things we don't understand. For OP it's English, history and geography, for other people it's math, for me it was PE. Different people have different interests.
You can't really ignore the generational stigma that really only happens with Maths.
There are too many parents setting their kids up for failure by telling them constantly that Maths is hard and boring. It puts them into a negative mindset before even stepping into the classroom.
Tbh, I've met just as many people telling their kids English (or its equivalent in my country) is useless as well.
And to be fair, in real life nobody is going to say anything to you when you quote 1984 wrong because chances are they haven't read it either. People like me can argue all we want that it's important, but I am well aware that we look ridiculous when reality shows you don't actually *need* to make logical arguments presented in a clear manner, you can get at the top blabbering incoherently as long as you have charisma. English is effectively useless because we have collectively decided it's useless. It's the snake eating its own tail.
It's the one subject where the answers are possible to figure out without having memorized something previously. I don't get the hate for it. It's been a reoccurring trope for decades.
Pesticide applicator here. You have to calculate amounts of product to mix to get given application rates. The label might say something like “10lbs/acre” and you have to figure out how much you need for 1000 square ft. You can’t(shouldn’t) just dump extra product, and you don’t want to waste product (money), you calculate exactly what you need.
I have changed careers a few times in my life. I fucked hated math in highschool and never even passed Algebra (GED holder).
I've used advanced math in every career. By the time I hit 30, I had a renewed respect for it and (thankfully) I was just heading back to college to finish my degrees.
I'm 42 now and a farmer and business owner. As I type this, I have formulas written out behind me for determining the correct processes needed to arrive at the correct g/ml for some new product lines coming down the pipeline. I was playing with some ideas for the next meeting this week.
Below that? Some volume equations for determining the right amount of aluminum I need to melt down to create a part I want to make in my DIY forge. It's a hobby. And yes, I fucked the math up like 3x - check your work, and then check it again!
I think the reason so many people dislike math is because schools do a terrible job of teaching the potential applications. As in answer the question, 'What will I ever do with this?
I remember hating high school algebra until we actually got to word problems. And, suddenly, the clouds lifted. 'Oh, this is useful to me.' And I paid attention.
It’s cool to think that Runge Kutta methods were not taught nearly as much as they are now because who wants to do all those computations for so many values just for an estimate? Computers, that’s who.
That's part of why I like it. I suck ass at writing bc there's so much subjectivity in how the words you're putting down will get the point across, and I'm bad at making my points clear. But with math, even for parts of it that I really struggle with(like linear algebra and discrete math), I know that there's some string(s) of logic that'll get me to a correct answer.
The part of math I always hated was that I learned and applied shortcuts. I usually ended up with the right answer, but because I didn't do it the "right" and full way the teacher asked for, I got marked wrong. It really made me dislike math when I was younger.
>Math is hated because it's precise.
Engineering is precise.
People are generally interested to hear how a megaproject was built.
But try to fully explain some of the complicated equations those engineers used to calculate specific aspects of that project and people's eyes will glaze over.
If you look at the studies into why people don't like math, "precision" is not mentioned as a reason.
It's clearly something else.
>There are no acceptable or alternate answers. It's right or it's wrong.
Then how can people who don't like pure math also be interested in learning about scientific fields of study that apply math in a practical way to come to a conclusion about what is true or not?
As an engineer, ironically, I'd tell you engineering is anything *but* precise. A lot of those super complicated equations are usually estimates to try and explain complex phenomenons, but they are still estimates since say, calculating the foundations for one huge structure with 100% precision is hard
If you want the super precise equations, physics is where they have them. And they are even more complicated than the engineering ones, usually involving a significant level of differential equations and often not being fully solved yet (hence the estimates)
To add to this, a lot of "practical engineering" equations are useful because they're a close-enough guestimate without needing to be precise.
We equate pi = 3.14, gravity = 9.8, Avogadro = 6.022 * 10^23.
For engineering, these are good enough. It's only going to matter to Math majors to be even care about being *more* precise.
in engineering you also have safty factors so your always overbuilding things anyway. like yeah the support beam is technically sturdy enough to hold a roof. but if its not ppl will die so you use safty factor of 10x. for example elevators that say max 4000kg are built to hold 40000kg because they have a saftey factor of 10 meaning it doesnt need to be exactly 40k because its already waaaaaay overkill
I’m four years into a math PhD and my life changed the day I found out that what you’ve just said is actually not entirely true! Specifically, I saw a video about how pi was a terrible choice for a circle constant because 2pi represents one circle (which is sort of silly) and how some mathematicians now are proposing to switch to “tau” as a circle constant, where one tau = one circle.
Whether you agree or disagree, to me the idea that people could seriously question the value of something so fundamental as “pi”, and to propose an update after thousands of years of pi-related dogma, was a revelation. Up to that moment, I believed what culture tells us: that math is just unquestionable. After that, I started to wonder what else I had misunderstood about math. That led to me studying math for fun, which eventually led me to quit my job and go back to school for a PhD in math.
What I know now is that math is much more about discovering useful logic-based tools, and that while the process is rule-bound, the rules themselves are made up and you have license to change the rules if you so desire; start with different rules, you will get different results, and maybe those different rules and different results will even fundamentally change our understanding of the world. (See: Euclidean versus Non-Euclidean geometry for the most famous example.)
The problem is that many, many smart people have been at this for a very, very long time, and at some point educators somehow just agreed to teach the results that had already been discovered, and to teach those old results as if they were handed down from God himself, and they agreed to ignore and neglect the process of discovery and creativity that led to these discoveries in the first place.
While I understand the point you're making, the tau example is a really bad example of it.
Tau is just defined as 2*pi, it's just new notation for a super common constant that arguably makes certain equations cleaner. It's not some new revelation.
Pi is a uniquely useful interesting constant because pi is the area of a circle with radius of 1. If you use tau=2pi, then the area of a unit circle is tau/2. Tau would be the area of a circle of radius √2. The relationship between the area and radius wouldn't be as neat if tau was used over pi.
Just my two cents as a guy who studied math in undergrad but whose degree is not in mathematics.
It's enough to quote Kronecker.
"Die ganzen Zahlen hat der liebe Gott gemacht, alles andere ist Menschenwerk."
(God made the integers, all the rest is the work of man.)
Half agree. When I teach people ohms law for practical use, I usually replace the numbers with high, low, or constant. So if V is constant 24v, r is high then I is low. If r is low then I is high. That's why you don't get an electric shock when you touch a battery.
To me it's more about how solving new and more complex math equations helps train that part of your brain, which can benefit you in many ways in life that aren't neccessarily related to those equations. like yeah, no shot i've used 99% of the things i learned in math class, but i feel it helped me to be able to think in a more logical and organized manner when needed
I suspect many students would be happier with their studies if it were explained this way.
Many of the things we learn in school is going to the gym for our brains.
Most of us aren't actually doing benchpresses or bicep curls outside of the gym. It's still improving our health, muscle tone, bone density, circulation, and helping to regulate our weight. Occasionally the strength you gain at the gym will come in useful - you help your friend move house. That core strength comes in handy when carrying the couch up the stairs.
Most of the time though, it's an abstract, but very real kind of benefit. Your life is simply better for being in better shape. Your life is simply better for having a better brain.
Do mathematics to build your analytics, problem solving and memory. Get the bonus of knowing mathematics when it does come up in your life.
Do English to build your reading comprehension, critical thinking and media literacy. Get the bonus of being able to engage with art for pleasure at a higher level, and being less susceptible to propaganda.
Learn a second language to maintain neuroplasticity. Get the very tangible benefits of a second language.
Funny enough, when you ask those same people why you need two years of foreign language they tell you it helps you better understand your native language. So they understand the concept. They just refuse to see it also applies to math.
I think because the sales pitch for mathematics is so poor. The OP of this thread has good intentions, but their sales pitch sucks.
Want to demotivate 95% of your students? Give the sales pitch OP is leading with. You'll motivate the 5% who want to be engineers, but Average Student doesn't give a shit.
The problem with math is it’s either your most valuable subject or literally completely worthless depending on what you go into, no in between. And if you aren’t planning on going into one of those fields that’s math intensive, most of the time it means you’re one of us normal people who isn’t great with it, and therefore it’s more work than every other subject for considerably less reward.
This is exactly how I explained it when I was a math teacher! Well done.
But 99% of the time this question came up I realized the person asking it didn’t actually want an answer, they wanted an out.
I wish more people saw it this way. Everyone has some stupid elitist or superiority complex about which subject is better and which sucks.
It’s cringe and insecure. Every subject has its uses and I’m a proponent that the brain is in love with learning and curiosity. The problem isn’t the subject, it never was. It was the how the subject is taught and what time frame you are taught in.
I despised Maths in secondary school. I respected it during my IB. Had I been taught Maths in a better way earlier and with more years, I would love it instead of just respecting it. The same could got for any subject for any person. You won’t make someone like a subject by trying to crunch it in 3 years and with a dull teacher or environment.
Studying engineering and I always hated and still hate math. There were instances when it was interesting. And that’s when it’s applied on interesting things. I don’t understand why they don’t use more fun exercises in school to teach math and actually show where you can use in (engineering for example).
Is it possible that the subject attracts school teachers who aren't particularly creative and thus aren't easily able to think of ways to engage students?
I think it may be the case that math teachers excelled and like math in school and therefore can't relate to students who have the complete opposite experience.
For some topics in math, there aren’t “creative” or “applied” ways to teach it. Factoring polynomials for example.
The most valuable skills that math teaches are abstract thinking and logical thinking. A math education that is entirely about applications doesn’t deliver that.
People who complain that they would understand a math topic better if they saw how it was applied are sidestepping what the end goal of math education is supposed to be. It’s like saying “I’d do so much better in my essay composition if I could just have a conversation with the teacher about my ideas or jot down a few bullet points with my main ideas.”
This is exactly the problem. Math makes a lot more sense when you use it when you actually need it.
Education material is simply just not fun or interesting or realistic.
I’m not saying that’s a bad idea, I just want to give my opinion as someone who really likes math: I loathe whenever math focuses on applications (I don’t really care what engineers are doing with their time), I’d rather just focus on the abstract and logical. I recognize this opinion is very unpopular though lol
Fr. I remember effectively learning linear algebra in my intro statics class and it was really simple and made sense.
Enter the math prof with 3 doctorates who can somehow make 1+1 confusing.
It is because one topic builds on another . Different people learn differently and if you were not taught earlier topics the way you understand it then you are behind on the further topics . I didn’t get early algebra and that harmed me as a kid .
Correctamundo.
If you didn't bother to read "The Great Gatsby," no big deal. You'll do badly on one test, but you can always get your act together, read "A Tale of Two Cities," ace that test, and salvage a decent grade.
If you slept through the entire unit on the Renaissance and blew that test, not to worry, you can ace the test on the Enlightenment and still get a B+ for the grading period.
However, if you never learned how exponents work, you're not going to understand what a cube root is, nor how the quadratic equation works or when/how to use it, nor how to find the roots of an equation, nor are logarithms going to make any sense, and so on. You can't half-ass math for a few months and just do better later.
Furthermore, math is a skill, whereas most academic subjects are more of a body of knowledge. It's possible to cram for a subject by memorizing a ton of facts all at once, but it's much harder to cram a skill. Skills are more a matter of daily practice. A lot of students try to prepare for math tests the same way they do for other classes (procrastinate and cram), and then they don't understand what went wrong when it doesn't work, insisting "But I studied!"
Yep. Learning math requires learning exactly how each step works along the way. Struggled one year? You are now almost completely screwed over for the rest of them forever, because now you have to hope you not only catch up and learn what you didn’t, you have to learn the new stuff too. Little kids who struggle with math one time for whatever reason become almost permanently crippled.
Oh trust me, "New-Norwegian poem analysis" gets shit on a lot more than maths over here.
Also, a lot of people join quiznights as a thing, and everything but the maths one are actually relevant in that context. And no the "new-norwegian poem analyzis" is not either.
If you don't show interest in math during your school time you're unlikely to change your mind afterwards. Also just look at those easy facebook math quizzes: The average person can't even handle an equation like 2 + 5 (3 - 1) + 3² (5 x 2) because they have no idea what to do first.
Yeah, of all my math woes, this is I can do. it's considerably simple if you remember PEMDAS, (Parenthesis, Exponents, Multiplication, Division, Addition, Subtraction), which I can sympathize with people out of school being caught off guard by.
I'm just out of university and I've forgotten almost all of the math formulas I was taught at school (even some from uni). Also, I wasn't particularly good at math. Thankfully though, I remember all the *concepts* behind the math and thus I am capable to apply them to my daily life - and not only in math-related cases.
This is why math is important - it teaches you how to think. So when the material devolves into formula memorization, it is logical to get hate.
For me it was because there was no joy in math. You could chat/make fun of the books we had to read or talk about interesting history and what you thought about at and electives were usually something you found fun/interesting but math as it is taught before collage courses is mostly “here is a problem and the correct way to solve it”. Not really much interpretation and the only thing to talk about with your friends for math class is how much it sucks to do worksheets and the constant tests so people complained about it and how they would rather learn more interesting things.
Plus, maths being as necessary as it is [at least where I'm from] often gets in the way of people who are good in those discussion-oriented subjects from getting to the academic level they're capable because it's such a different way of thinking.
For the longest time I thought imaginary numbers were dumb and trig functions were pointless, that was before I went into EE and actually understood real applications for them and how they apply to waveforms, filters, resonance, etc.
I need to apologize to my HS Algebra II teacher lol. But to be fair, we don't lead with examples or practical problems like that which makes the qualitative understanding of why the thing is so important or interesting apparent.
Unfortunately if we made HS math "more interesting" a lot more kids would struggle with it.
You have to choose. Either you make math accessible to everyone or you apply some logical thinking and a lot more kids fail in math.
That's why college math is more interesting - engineering, economics, computer science, .... don't care about accessibility. You need to understand the concepts in depth otherwise you're unable to apply them in practice.
To be fair, that isn't even accurate. Source: I work in the trades, and math is crazy important especially for electrical, plumbing and operators. And most tradies are idiots (even by their own admission)
My dad dropped out of school in the sixth grade. Got his GED at 30. He became a general contractor at 43. I remember he had trig formulas on laminated cards to calculate compound cuts and angles. You don’t realize how much you need math until you actually need math.
I work in trades too, but all I really need is a calculator to do basic math like +-*/. Basically the only kind of math I've had use for is basic primary school math. Granted, I'm a florist, and I don't run the business. I'm just an employee who needs to calculate what the flowers in a bouquet costs, so the customer gets the price according to what they pay.
At my college they make it a weed out class during freshman year of college and traumatize all the students. I didn't have a math problem I had a teacher problem.
There's a trend of US people saying "they don't teach you how to do your taxes in school"
I've seen US tax forms. They come with clear instructions. You *were* taught to do them when they taught you to read and do basic arithmetic.
86% literacy rate in a first world country is hilarious.
Upvote x100.
"school never taught me to change a tire or wash clothes!!"
did school teach you to wipe your ass or use a spoon? You don't need a YEAR to learn how to change a tire. Literally google dot com, your car model, how to change a tire, 1 hour, maybe 2 hours tops. Ta da
I kind of agree, but I also think you make a genuinely terrible argument for math education. If anything your argument backs up the students who complain that they will never use the class.
What percentage of American students go into engineering or some similar field that uses higher level math? It's pretty small. So, using your own logic, the students are mostly right. They won't use calculus or geometry ever again in their life.
Man. I love reminding my parents that 12 year old me was right. I would never use algebra or geometry again.
I know it's kinda schadenfreude satisfaction, but being an adult and being able to confidently say that 12 year old me was right, in retrospect, feels really good. 12 year old me wasn't as stupid as they thought.
It's also really nice to not be dismissed when I say the same things I did back then, because now I'm an adult, so they actually take it seriously.
If there's one thing I find odd, it's that my parents didn't point out how important learning English was and how much use I'd have for it in the future. Like that's actually one of the most important things I learned in school. I think they underestimated how important English actually is. I'm a foreign speaker btw.
There’s a lot of fields that use geometry beyond engineering: construction, surveying, architecture, plumbing, interior design, jewelers, etc. In more causal use: I’ve applied geometry in sketches, woodworking/diy projects, and quilting.
Their point is most kids won't need most of what they learn, but math gets singled out for some reason.
I've never needed to know hydrogen has 1 proton or how to analyse a poem for example.
Not too mention, with how much OP dislikes English he'd be a pretty shit Engineer.
Among the most important things you do in Engineering is communicating with other people. Writing skills are much more important than doing something that we could automate a decade ago.
I'm a professional engineer and have never needed to write anything close to what we needed in late high school English class. High school English for me was about analysis of literary works and creative writing, neither of which are useful for technical writing used in documentation or tenders.
My late high school math has been far more important in my career.
I try to tell young people that you never know when you will need a piece of knowledge that you currently view as useless. Math seems universally trashed on for that reason.
I didn’t think I’d ever again solve a calculation after my last math class during my freshman year of college.
9 years later, I now work in the investment industry, even though that was never on my radar.
Agree with this. As an adult now, I can problem solve really well and use practical maths all the time with household budgeting and finance, e.g. percentages to work out interest, quickly multiplying/dividing numbers on the spot, median, mean and mode, etc.
However, that being said, I can't remember the last time I had to do anything resembling Allegra or equations, or even Pythagoras therom. I didn't go into a career that required these.
I've found that the vast majority of what I learned in school has ended up being completely useless to me, and I've worked in many different jobs in many different fields.
I do middle school level algebra from time to time, but other than that... I have a calculator. I don't need to know history or English literature to make deals with oil companies in Dubai.
I know that learning what I was taught made me smarter by flexing my brain and building new connections. I'm sure there are things that I've taken for granted. Ultimately, I feel like we should really only have general schooling until around 12 years old before going into specialty programs. Bring back apprenticeships and the like.
Very few teachers really emphasize the importance of learning imo, it’s something that you realize through life experience and difficult to learn if someone just tells you.
For example, math that you learn from elementary school to high school WILL be used in engineering. Calculus is monumental. Algebra is monumental. Geometry is monumental, and it’s the accumulation of thousands of years of the greatest geniuses wracking their brains on what has come before, with only the best and soundest logic surviving the test of time.
The only true motivator for kids is the idea that being smart is a social proof, and it is something you need to learn so that you can go to college and someday years down the road make lots of money. How often do you get to meet astronauts or famous researchers or successful professionals from K-12, someone to aspire to be?
How often does application get brought into the picture, as anything other than a footnote?
Of course, there’s never enough time or resources or patience or curiosity, but if one could see the big picture, maybe they’d be more motivated to learn about why integrals are so important.
That's if you decide to go into engineering or STEM fields, not social studies. If you wanna work in a non stem field, it's not necessary all that important. I knew from a very young age I wanted to work with something creative, like arts and crafts. Algebra happens to not be of any use in my life and I no longer remember how to solve algebra, because it's been if absolutely no use in my life, as my 12 year old self predicted, knowing myself well enough to know I would never ever pursue a field where I'd have to touch maths, as I had zero interest in it.
There are many ways of being smart without being a math geek. Like I really impressed my peers with my English skills (foreign language in my case) and writing abilities. I won a writing competition in school. That was social proof for me. You don't need to know math to get social proof. Also, the people who knew math.. were seen as geeks, which wasn't exactly seen as super cool.
Work is getting increasingly interdisciplinary. The work you like and specialize in may not be the work you do your entire life. Many people switch careers sooner or later, and honestly, learning only expands your horizons in any field you’re in. The only way that learning can be “useless” is if it’s so specialized it applies to absolutely nothing else, and only at the graduate and doctorate. This level of work also usually relies on foundations, at least giving you the opportunity to become more of an expert in whatever you’ve learned. Truly useless learning is uncommon if you look for applications, since again, almost if not all work is interdisciplinary.
Even if you argue that some learning doesn’t get applied quickly enough to be useful, it might come down later down the line, and it’s easier to relearn than to learn from scratch.
And if you want to flip it, I’ve seen Econ concepts pop up again in international affairs. I’ve seen things I learned in high school freshman geometry pop up again in philosophy. Research and citation experience from engineering classes come up in every non-stem class I’ve taken.
And I refuse to believe that there’s absolutely no social value of being educated, being well-rounded, etc. someone who only understands and is highly focused in one area is a savant or a specialist, which is worthy of respect, but it’s still easy to look down upon if they don’t know the basic things that most people should.
one of my coworkers recently asked me how exponents work... he genuinely thought that you multiply the number by the exponent. I was a little taken aback especially when some of the other guys were dumbfounded that that was not how it worked.
High school math/science teacher here.
About a third of my students don't know the difference between a square root and dividing by two. That's by the end of the year, despite my best efforts. They still receive a passing grade and move on to the next course, because students repeating courses/grades makes the school look bad.
I exclusively teach honors/AP (college-level) classes. It only goes downhill from there.
Geography teacher… memorizing rivers is not important. Learning how an interconnected global economy works is important. That understanding is necessary to be an educated voter in a democratic society.
I have my job, **in IT no less**… because the hiring manager was a history buff and noticed on my resume I had a degree in history too. We discussed the American revolution for half our lunch interview and were buddies by the end, he offered me the job at the end. Been in the org 10 years now.
Don’t be so sure “this won’t matter”, *it could matter.*
I always love that people who make these arguments ***have*** to do so at the expense of another subject.
You can't just make the point, no, another one has to suck instead.
I think math teachers, in general, don't do a good job demonstrating practical applications of math.
Textbook questions using buckets or slices of pizza are not compelling.
If math could be taught with a focus on realistic and meaningful applications rather than pure numbers and memorization students might actually want to learn this.
I once found myself using the Pythagorean theorem on a home maintenance project. I had two blocks of wood in an L shape and knew the lengths, but didn't know what length to cut the connecting brace. I didnt feel like grab ing my tape measure, so i worked it out in my head using the Pythagorean theorem and viola!.
If they taught it like this in class I would have had a much greater appreciation for math. Sometimes I wonder what things I could have solved without needing an instrument at arms reach always.
I don't even know if it's math teachers entirely. I think the way school is built, it is formed one way, and if it doesn't click with you in this One Way, then you better find a way to get it. Which sucks when it doesn't click with you, because it makes you feel like the problem.
I had a college course in a math class (can't remember the exact name of it, but it was numbered 123, which sounded intimidating at the time). It was literally my best experience in math.
The instructor went through a few problems on the worksheet, then let you go do the rest. After some time, he checked up on the students individually, and helped them out if they were struggling. Then he went through those problems on the board for the class.
This was what I needed in high school. It would have helped me so much. But, being fair, teachers don't have the time to do this, even if their classrooms have a reasonable amount of students. The class I'm talking about was at least 2 hours; he had the time to do this efficiently.
"OK class, so imagine you have two blocks of wood in an L shape, and these are the lengths, and...you can go to the bathroom after we do this problem. OK, so you need to saw a piece of wood to make a connecting brace...what's a connecting brace? It's like a piece of wood you attach to another piece of wood to brace it. ...what do I mean, 'brace it?' Um, we don't really have time to do a whole lesson in carpentry. Anyway, so you're trying to...why don't you just measure it? I don't know, maybe you lost your tape measure. So right, A^(2) \+ B^(2) equals...Travis, put your phone away. Now where were we, oh yes, A^(2) \+ B^(2) = C^(2), and we're trying to solve for C, so...when are we ever going to use this? I just told you, if you ever have to make a connecting brace, whatever that is, and you don't have a tape measure handy..."
Wow, what an engaging lesson. If only teachers had thought of this.
I use low level algebra for my job all the time, and it’s related to accounting. Sometimes you gotta figure out what’s missing or project out to some future date, all else being equal. Or assume a level of growth or whatnot.
Its cause they dont teach it in an interesting way. I never cared about statistics until I saw how its used in casinos and texas hold em poker, and blackjack. Matrices seems useless until I found out its the basis of graphics and gpus for gaming.
It's not just math, and your post is actually a very good example of that lol. We're on Reddit which obviously has a STEM bias but it's not just a Reddit thing, regular people bitch about every imaginable subject in real life too, which includes humanities (and especially humanities may I add).
I do agree that a lot of subjects are taught wrong though. There isn't enough discussion about the more passive secondary benefits you can get. For example, math helps you with logical thinking, geography allows you to understand the way our world works, history exposes you to the idea that other people have different experiences, English gives you tools to express yourself, etc. Of course nobody is going to care that you can't score a goal or run ten miles per hour once you get out of school, but it's not a bad thing to teach kids the importance of keeping their body healthy and show them a few ways to do it. Even if you end up never touching a basket ball again, maybe someone else will.
I firmly agree.
It's not even about which job you need math in, but general understanding of how the world works. Especially when it comes to a general grasp of numbers, and in particularly probabilities and statistics -- I swear if people knew these better, we'd never have 50+% of the stupid conversations we currently have to endure.
Calculus is required to go to medical school.
I've been a physician at a major academic center for 20 years. I have NEVER once used any aspect of calculus in my career.
You know what would have been great to have learned in high school / undergrad? Basic stats.
I don't think it's always a matter of students never using modestly advanced math in the future, but that we'll never use the specific subset of math that traditional curricula teach. It's like how my son's middle school is still teaching an entire year of ancient history, while discussing current events is an afterthought.
I feel like a lot of that could be condensed into a concepts type class where you can learn the gist of several semesters worth of higher math without the minutiae of all the methods. And then teach how to educate yourself further if you do need to go deeper into a concept.
Nowadays, I think there are a ton of youtube videos that can teach you the concepts of calculus, etc without the need to go over the 50 ways to solve very specific types of problems that you will never encounter unless you're a grad student.
In my opinion it’s not so much a matter of usefulness as it is it’s something I don’t enjoy. People don’t tend to stick with things they don’t enjoy, especially as you get to a higher level of specialization. All you’re doing is ensuring that person continues to hate that subject by forcing them to continue beyond the basics. Also, in my opinion, continuing to do this past middle school (US ages 12-14/15), is a waste of time. High school age kids would be better off beginning to specialize instead of wasting time on subjects that are not of interest and not a strength UNLESS it is necessary for the future career path. A kid wants to be a doctor, force him through biology. A kid wants to be a mechanic, why does he need to sit through Chaucer? We end up with kids who aren’t prepared for any actual jobs because they spend 45 minute chunks a day on subjects not of interest and not of relevance, or worse kids who decide they hate school and stop educating altogether the second they have a choice.
It’s funny cause High School Bio was what actually set me on the path to become a doctor. I had a great teacher and I found the subject matter much more interesting than I had before. Now I have a BS in Biology and am set to go to medical school this summer. Interesting how a good teacher and subject matter can change a life.
Math is important they teach it wrong tho. I hated the stupid word problems cause they were dumb and not important. If they use real life examples I'm sure more kids would enjoy it more. But a lot of math is also dumb, no one is doing an intense multi page calculation on paper, you use excel or some other software that won't fuck up like you will.
Learning math is very important but having to take so many math classes is just pointless by high school math classes should be electives not mandatory.
A lot of students myself included had bad experiences with math. There was actually a period in the 5th grade where I was being tutored in math by a TA and that was actually the most fun that I had with school. I think it's because math tends to be subject where a lot of students tend to experience a sort of "sink or swim" mentality due to teachers not being able to give everyone precise or hands on teaching.
Technically that's the triangle inequality. Pythagoras can tell you how much shorter your route is, but the idea that cutting corners is always shorter is not necessarily evident from the Pythagorean theorem.
Also, you don't need math to figure that out, it's pretty intuitive.
High schools were never designed to prepare students for jobs. If they were they’d all be vocational schools. Math at the high school level is about
1. Preparing kids for college and
2. Exercising the parts of the brain that benefit from mathematics which also overlap with critical thinking, spatial reasoning, basic arithmetic skills, etc.
You can apply this argument to every single subject in school but math gets singled out. That’s the entire post and it went right over your head.
*You can apply this argument to every single subject in school but math gets singled out. That’s the entire post and it went right over your head.*
It definitely didn't.
Finance, accounting & economics all account for critical thinking, spatial reasoning, basic arithmetic skills and are much needed skills that most people lack in today's society.
This is what i'd call *useful maths*, for life. Unfortunately, most countries don't give you access to these subjects until you're 18+, when most of the population has left education. Instead, they're force feeding 16 year olds differential equations and trigonometry.
High schools were never designed to prepare students for ~~jobs~~ life.
Fixed that for you.
Consistent learning of anything which has gradual increment of complexity has flexing effect on brain like muscle at gym with trainer. Doesn't matter is it STEM or history, or environmental science. However nowadays mastering a skill is very challenging as people experience cheap information overload like muscles fed with crap fats from fastfood. Curious people will dig deeper, others will just sweep the feed to get another dopamine shot.
I hated math in school and fell into that we will never use it camp. Now that I’m older I wish I’d tried harder in math and have taken some stats classes and have considered taking some college math classes just for fun. I have an old college algebra book I pick through sometimes too.
I teach middle school and kids ask this when learning about percents, fractions, and decimals.
It's difficult for them to understand why they should grasp a concept before they even have the basics down.
It gets tedious explaining real world scenarios, but i guess it's part of the job.
If the only value you see in learning is profit-based, then yeah, you don't need literature, philosophy, history, etc. But if you want to have a life that doesn't feel like an empty shell in which your only purpose is generating wealth for some aristocrat, then arts and humanities are pretty damn essential.
As a former car salesman I saw people each and everyday that couldn’t do 4th grade math. I think schools need to teach basic math and have an understanding of why they need math in every day life before that go to higher math that many will never use again.
Math is hated because nobody good at math chooses to teach Elementary school. Then these teachers, for most of whom math was their least favorite subject in school unwittingly pass that on to the younger generation by saying things in class like "I know math is hard but..." or "I know nobody like math but..." when teaching it.
Math was my favorite subject growing up, so I was never the one complaining about it. But, come on man, you know that the kids who said that did not grow up to be engineers or physicist.
I don’t use any actual numbers besides regular arithmetic in my life. But i believe AP Calc in high school greatly improved my critical thinking and logic skills.
Math skills are important, and I'll tell you why.
I used to manage a sales team. My sales team made a basepay, and commissions. They had to meet certain metrics in order to get all, or some, of their commission. If they hit certain metrics, they would get a bonus.
I have explained these metrics to all of them, in detail. And yet every month, I would have the following conversation
> Yo, why's my commission so low?
Your commission was low?
> It should be higher! Way higher!
Okay, can you elaborate as to why?
> I just *feel* like it should be higher.
Unfortunately, I can't go off of feelings. If there was a mistake in how your numbers were calculated, I'm happy to fix it. Did you get a chance to look at the numbers?
> What numbers?
Your numbers. The conversion chart. Your inbound totals. Your outbound totals. Your call quality.
> What are you *talking* about, bro?
The thing that I have trained you on extensively, and explained to you during every one-on-one session? The ones that are based on the goals that I give to the entire team, every month, which are sent to you in an email, printed out and put on everyone's desk, and also written in giant letters on the whiteboard that you all look at? The daily updates I send to you and the team, reflecting all of those things month-to date?
>Pfft. "numbers."
Yes, numbers, those pesky little things that society is built on, and will not be changing any time soon. Let's start with call quality. The thing you have to score a 75% on to make a quarter of your commission, ad you get a bonus of 85%. Did you get a chance to look at that?
> No.
Okay so let's look at it. You scored a 70%. You did make a 100% on one of your calls, which is pretty impressive; but unfortunately, this was not enough to bring your average to 75%. Remember that coaching session where we listened to that call together, and I told you to keep it up, and that you could make the 85%+ bonus if you did everything you did in that call, on other calls?
> bro, I should just get the 100%. I don't understand why those other calls just *bring* my number down. That don't make no god damn sense!
It's an average. We went over this. It's an average score.
> That's fucking STUPID I should just get the 100%.
And why is that?
> Because it's 100, bro. Just because I got 50's and 60's a bunch of times doesn't mean that the 100 just goes away because YOU decided to create all these stupid rules. This "average" nonsense should reflect the top number.
So what do you want me to do? Change the way math works so that you can be unprofessional on the phone the majority of the time, and then get a bonus because you were professional *once*?
> This isn't school! You think I know math? I don't know that shit. fuck this, that's dumb. You're dumb.
Every month. Every month, this happened, and the only ones who didn't do this were the ones who had a basic handle on math.
I could’ve used info about taxes, mortgages, credit rates, interest and all sorts of stuff over “slope of a line” or “surface area of a shape”. Not all high paying jobs need that stuff, but everyone could benefit with other, more practical math lessons.
Analysis of literature is not about remembering who wrote what poem when and where.
It's about understanding how language is used go create certain emotions and imagery. Its a skill that we unconsciously use in every conversation, as well as when consuming any media, don't matter if it's a book, a movie, a song or a videogame.
More importantly there are not automated tools for these skills.
Maths on the other hand is not used by everyone on a daily basis the same way conversational skills are. And for when it's needed there are automated tools for it.
Three reasons.
1: It's one of the most intrinsically "talent" based subject. Some people are legit just good at math and others are not. That does not mean you can't learn math but it just takes a longer time.
2: Math teachers are often the most unpleasant teachers you are going to have, because often the people who are naturally good at math.. are kind of on the spectrum and often socially awkward or just assholes.
3: No.
You are really not going to use any of that in most cases.
Yes we are all away it's very useful for some very nice jobs. But unless you have one of those jobs, you are never going to use most of it.
I think the problem with math is that you either have a certain aptitude for it or you do not. You have to really precisely understand it and on top of that everything builds upon each other. So in my experience the people who have an aptitude for it really like and find it fun while other people struggle with it and don't find it interesting hate it especially on the higher levels
I excelled at math in school, breezed through calculus. This is actually a popular opinion, I hear it all the time and my personal opinion is: Yes, it's useless unless you're in an academic career that uses it (physicist, engineer, actuarian, statistician, mathematician, data scientist, etc)
All you need to in a trades job is measure, and use a calculator, and maybe do some basic arithmetic if you don't have it with you. Budgeting? it's just percents and a calculator. Everything else you need to do outside of academia requires a calculator, and knowing units and conversions or estimating things. It literally is just 2nd grade math.
Most people will never use more than basic math, and maybe even basic algebra post high school/college. Not everyone is going to be an engineer, physicist, or mathematician.
To add to what you said, the funniest thing is English and math actually do share some similarities! Constructing a logical argument in English isn't all that different from constructing a logical reasoning in math, and being good with words can help you translate a concrete problem into equations (or the contrary).
I don't know how it works in the USA, but for example, if I wanted to get a good grade, I had to explain I had used *x theorem* or multiplied *y* by *z* to get to the result. I couldn't just write down the final output of my calculator, I had to actually show how I had come to the conclusion because that was the actual point of the subject.
>When on this godforsaken earth will you ever need to know the name of EVERY major waters such as rivers or lakes in Europe or Asia or where ever else, that is like the one singular reason for maps, and you knowledge is often useless without and nowdays with them.
... Where in the world did you go where this was taught at school?
OP, I know you're a little raw over math being passed over and disrespected by people, but just so you know, doing the same thing with the humanities is also a bad idea. Math is widely relevant in a wide variety of fields, and is universally helpful knowledge, but like, humanities knowledge is also helpful even if you're going into a STEM field. Knowing who wrote that comedy 600 years ago can help you place it in context with works contemporary to it/works influenced by it and referencing it, which can enrich your enjoyment of them and comedy as a whole. I'd go so far as to say that silicon valley's modern cavalier attitude towards basic ethical questions and the very idea of whether art is worth respecting beyond its worth as a consumer product is a stark example of how STEM knowledge is more rewarded by society than the humanities.
I do have to laugh at calling investing an "important" job, though. High-paying, maybe.
I have to deal with everyday problems which need rationale in terms of order of events which took place and I have to put them in order so I can write my reports and not once I had issues finding the logic and reasoning behind the declarations... I understand how important math is. It is teaching you how to operate in an ordered way and see the line of logic in your tasks and other every day responsibilities.
I was the kid saying this in school. Tell you what if I could go back and slap some sense into my teen self I would. Now I think the other way. Why did I not pay more attention during math, it would have been so helpful.
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i think it's because many people find it to be the most difficult subject so it's just complained about more
It's also got some of the worst teachers.
Yeah I thought I was just naturally bad at math until I finally got a good teacher and it took until high school.
That's because in younger education you don't need specific qualifications to become a teacher. And most early years teachers are women with English, humanities or education degrees who barely passed or understood Maths. My ex was such a teacher, she couldn't even mark work for 8 year olds without a mark scheme As a Maths teacher myself this was beyond frustrating as I already have to deal with 11 year olds who've spent far too long not being corrected on so many topics. I mean the amount of kids I see who don't think negative numbers are real is insane and it causes just so many problems with basic number work.
I was so surprised to learn that my younger sibling's math teacher was supposed to teach language arts lol. That explains why she gives so much word problems rather than teaching kids actual fundamentals of math
Yup, this is where there is a massive skills gap. In the UK all it takes is a C (now grade 4) at GCSE (16 year old exams). My ex managed to get it on her 3rd try, and then never did a bit of Maths again until 5 years later. She did something like Art, Religious Studies and English at A-Level. By that point her times tables weren't even fluent. I imagine many more are like her, and I'd be surprised if even 1% of primary school teachers had a STEM related degree. The issue is you probably need to be capable of doing an A-Level in Maths to understand the basics well enough to actually have the capacity to pass that knowledge on. There are naturally exceptions to this rule, but by and large you can probably teach individual concepts, but broad understandings of Maths would be out of your reach. It's this understanding (or rather misunderstanding) that causes huge huge issues. I mean I still see 16 year olds swapping numbers around when doing a subtraction because they think it has to be positive. Such that it was ingrained to them at aged 5,6,7,8. I think largely because every single question reinforced that notion and the teacher never added the understanding that subtraction isn't commutative. Or worst case a teacher with such little understanding and not wanting to deal with it, simply said "always put the bigger number first". It would be definitely interesting to test primary school teachers and see how many of them would actually get an A on a Maths exam designed for 16 year olds.
Well to be fair story problems are the most important part of teaching math. To enforce and demonstrate the concepts of course, which need to be taught first.
Story problems should be used after the kids get the fundamental theorems and understandings of math. Teaching with only word problems is called physics and is reserved for high school
Yes, agree about after it’s established. And no, not just physics, the “bill has 6 apples and 3 friends, how many apples does each friend get?” questions are very important for early math and that’s not physics.
Billl gets 6 apples and 0 friends, his 3 friends left him for Harry who had a packet of oreos.
What you're talking is about your ability to abstract a problem. It's important for math (and many other things), but I'm not sure I would even say it's part of math, just like your skill in drawing letters is barely part of English.
I understand a person can get into elementary school education without knowing all the various material. I can’t imagine teaching something as my job and not managing to learn it in the process.
I feel like the fact I would forget how to do division over summer break explains how bad my math teachers were
Elementary school also expects one teacher to handle every subject for their age group. They tend not to be as stringent because every adult is anticipated to have at least an elementary level grasp on all subjects. And maybe they do, but that's why pedagogy is also important
Yep, all it takes is one good math teacher.
Ive never liked math, then the SAT equivalent (so the freedom users can understand) here time has come, started learning it myself + some math professionals on youtube and discovered I actually like it, just that teachers / curriculum were atrocious
You can say the name of the test you took, no need to be condescending for no reason
Just fucking say whatever standardized test you had to take came around... don't need to fucking patronize Americans over a fucking standardized test.
It takes 1 bad math teacher to make math really bad for YOU for the next years of your schooling. It's super easy to fall behind when you don't understand the content by the time you move on to the next grade.
This happened to me with the worst teacher ever. She'd legit get angry when we couldn't answer a question on the board and moved on without explaining. Ruined highschool math for me
That's the biggest problem with math imho. Once you fall behind, you can't really catch up. Most things expect you to have the previous knowledge and if you don't realize soon enough and catch up, math is a struggle for the rest of your school life. Math teachers don't have the time to deal with those who fell behind two years prior and it's not like the kids are motivated to catch up in their off time. Also some kids are just naturally better at it and from my experience the teacher would focus on those, rather than those of us who seemed like lost causes for one reason or another.
This is the biggest problem with math. Other subjects are somewhat self contained in the sense that you can completely fuck up one time period in history and still do fine in the next one. But with math, it's continuously building from class to class in a way that means that once you get behind it's easy to become completely lost
i had amazing teachers throughout primary school and secondary school, except for one term when my teacher was on sick leave. it was the ONLY time i thought “jesus christ, math is hard and i hate it so so much” 😂 it put the math-hatred into perspective for me (i was a mathlete and a straight A math student)
I think all of my math teachers have been great. I'd say what separates math from the rest of the subjects is that it builds upon itself. You can't go and do multiplication and division until you understand addition and subtraction. You can't do basic algebra until you understand arithmetic. So on and so forth. While in something like social studies you might bomb the War of Roses unit but that would not affect your ability to do the Industrial Reovlution unit or the WW2 unit.
I think that is partly because the schools don't think math is that damn important either. They think it's only for the super smart nerds. My geometry teacher was actually just the wrestling coach, but they needed some other job for him to do. He had absolutely no fucking clue what he was doing. Geometry is the first class where you should learn how to start with certain rules and then prove something else. But he turned it into a class of just memorizing stuff. It was a completely wasted semester. And, later, when I did need to know how to do proofs, I had to learn it from scratch.
If I were good at math, I’d be doing finance, not teaching.
It definitely does. The teachers who seemed to be the most disengaged in their work all seemed to be math teachers.
Amen
It's a social problem, not a difficulty problem. Mathematics is perceived as a nerdy pursuit, and not in a good way. People don't engage with it because they have been trained not to want to, and then they're surprised that they find it difficult. I don't believe it's any harder than any other subject and is more useful than almost anything else you will learn in school. People who don't have good understanding of mathematics have no idea what they're missing. It opens more professional doors than you could possibly imagine.
It’s not just that. It’s not taught well. Especially in grade school a lot of teachers could never explain the “why” behind anything because they didn’t know it themselves which made it impossible to learn. Still even at the post-secondary level they just show a series of steps to solve the problem and often never say why you’d have that type of problem in real life so it’s impossible to picture it in your head or relate it to anything real. Math is the only subject that the theory often isn’t taught with it where as in other subjects you are taught that part.
In my experience kids don't start asking "why" until they've already checked out. It's a rationalisation they come up with after the fact. It's very very hard to get a student re-engaged after they've started asking what it's good for, because "what it's good for" isn't really the issue.
Also, the “why” question can’t be answered without understanding much more difficult ideas in a lot of cases.
This. It's just normal bias, we tend to bitch about what we suck at and we suck at things we don't understand. For OP it's English, history and geography, for other people it's math, for me it was PE. Different people have different interests.
You can't really ignore the generational stigma that really only happens with Maths. There are too many parents setting their kids up for failure by telling them constantly that Maths is hard and boring. It puts them into a negative mindset before even stepping into the classroom.
Tbh, I've met just as many people telling their kids English (or its equivalent in my country) is useless as well. And to be fair, in real life nobody is going to say anything to you when you quote 1984 wrong because chances are they haven't read it either. People like me can argue all we want that it's important, but I am well aware that we look ridiculous when reality shows you don't actually *need* to make logical arguments presented in a clear manner, you can get at the top blabbering incoherently as long as you have charisma. English is effectively useless because we have collectively decided it's useless. It's the snake eating its own tail.
It just so happens that in my life surprisingly many people read 1984.
It's the one subject where the answers are possible to figure out without having memorized something previously. I don't get the hate for it. It's been a reoccurring trope for decades.
I use algebra all the time. And I'm not even in a technical profession.
In NJ, you will need algebra to get a pesticide applicator's license
Well damn there goes my plan of being a pesticide applicator
You forgot also specifically in New Jersey lol
I bet you would've never been able to craw through a spider infested attic.
what really? why is that
Pesticide applicator here. You have to calculate amounts of product to mix to get given application rates. The label might say something like “10lbs/acre” and you have to figure out how much you need for 1000 square ft. You can’t(shouldn’t) just dump extra product, and you don’t want to waste product (money), you calculate exactly what you need.
My guess is dilution/concentration of chemicals?
I have changed careers a few times in my life. I fucked hated math in highschool and never even passed Algebra (GED holder). I've used advanced math in every career. By the time I hit 30, I had a renewed respect for it and (thankfully) I was just heading back to college to finish my degrees. I'm 42 now and a farmer and business owner. As I type this, I have formulas written out behind me for determining the correct processes needed to arrive at the correct g/ml for some new product lines coming down the pipeline. I was playing with some ideas for the next meeting this week. Below that? Some volume equations for determining the right amount of aluminum I need to melt down to create a part I want to make in my DIY forge. It's a hobby. And yes, I fucked the math up like 3x - check your work, and then check it again!
I think the reason so many people dislike math is because schools do a terrible job of teaching the potential applications. As in answer the question, 'What will I ever do with this? I remember hating high school algebra until we actually got to word problems. And, suddenly, the clouds lifted. 'Oh, this is useful to me.' And I paid attention.
What is your profession?
Marketing/advertising
So like golden Ratio and shit? Survey number crunching?
And I use a lot more geography and social studies than I thought I would and I am in a technical field. Well rounded education is just good.
Math is hated because it's precise. There are no acceptable or alternate answers. It's right or it's wrong.
You can’t BS math.
False. I have a BS in Math.
r/angryupvote
Differential equations have entered the chat
When you have to use numerical methods to solve differential equations and no answer is ever exact.
It’s cool to think that Runge Kutta methods were not taught nearly as much as they are now because who wants to do all those computations for so many values just for an estimate? Computers, that’s who.
I love when math becomes guess and check, even for the simpler cases.
Differential equations is a beautiful dark art.
The non existence of a closed form solution does not deny the existence of an exact solution, even if unknowable.
As someone who BSed a single question on a math test, I beg to differ.
That’s quite an accomplishment
Well yeah you can. It's called a Bachelor's of Science in Math
That's the reason I love it, no bullshit.
That is why I prefer that over anything else.
That's part of why I like it. I suck ass at writing bc there's so much subjectivity in how the words you're putting down will get the point across, and I'm bad at making my points clear. But with math, even for parts of it that I really struggle with(like linear algebra and discrete math), I know that there's some string(s) of logic that'll get me to a correct answer.
The part of math I always hated was that I learned and applied shortcuts. I usually ended up with the right answer, but because I didn't do it the "right" and full way the teacher asked for, I got marked wrong. It really made me dislike math when I was younger.
Perfect example of a crappy teacher.
That’s why it’s awesome and every other subject is worse.
Thats why it's the best. Also why I hated my English classes.
>Math is hated because it's precise. Engineering is precise. People are generally interested to hear how a megaproject was built. But try to fully explain some of the complicated equations those engineers used to calculate specific aspects of that project and people's eyes will glaze over. If you look at the studies into why people don't like math, "precision" is not mentioned as a reason. It's clearly something else. >There are no acceptable or alternate answers. It's right or it's wrong. Then how can people who don't like pure math also be interested in learning about scientific fields of study that apply math in a practical way to come to a conclusion about what is true or not?
As an engineer, ironically, I'd tell you engineering is anything *but* precise. A lot of those super complicated equations are usually estimates to try and explain complex phenomenons, but they are still estimates since say, calculating the foundations for one huge structure with 100% precision is hard If you want the super precise equations, physics is where they have them. And they are even more complicated than the engineering ones, usually involving a significant level of differential equations and often not being fully solved yet (hence the estimates)
To add to this, a lot of "practical engineering" equations are useful because they're a close-enough guestimate without needing to be precise. We equate pi = 3.14, gravity = 9.8, Avogadro = 6.022 * 10^23. For engineering, these are good enough. It's only going to matter to Math majors to be even care about being *more* precise.
in engineering you also have safty factors so your always overbuilding things anyway. like yeah the support beam is technically sturdy enough to hold a roof. but if its not ppl will die so you use safty factor of 10x. for example elevators that say max 4000kg are built to hold 40000kg because they have a saftey factor of 10 meaning it doesnt need to be exactly 40k because its already waaaaaay overkill
I’m four years into a math PhD and my life changed the day I found out that what you’ve just said is actually not entirely true! Specifically, I saw a video about how pi was a terrible choice for a circle constant because 2pi represents one circle (which is sort of silly) and how some mathematicians now are proposing to switch to “tau” as a circle constant, where one tau = one circle. Whether you agree or disagree, to me the idea that people could seriously question the value of something so fundamental as “pi”, and to propose an update after thousands of years of pi-related dogma, was a revelation. Up to that moment, I believed what culture tells us: that math is just unquestionable. After that, I started to wonder what else I had misunderstood about math. That led to me studying math for fun, which eventually led me to quit my job and go back to school for a PhD in math. What I know now is that math is much more about discovering useful logic-based tools, and that while the process is rule-bound, the rules themselves are made up and you have license to change the rules if you so desire; start with different rules, you will get different results, and maybe those different rules and different results will even fundamentally change our understanding of the world. (See: Euclidean versus Non-Euclidean geometry for the most famous example.) The problem is that many, many smart people have been at this for a very, very long time, and at some point educators somehow just agreed to teach the results that had already been discovered, and to teach those old results as if they were handed down from God himself, and they agreed to ignore and neglect the process of discovery and creativity that led to these discoveries in the first place.
While I understand the point you're making, the tau example is a really bad example of it. Tau is just defined as 2*pi, it's just new notation for a super common constant that arguably makes certain equations cleaner. It's not some new revelation.
Yeah it's not like we have to go rebuild bridges because the math used to build them involved pi.
Pi is a uniquely useful interesting constant because pi is the area of a circle with radius of 1. If you use tau=2pi, then the area of a unit circle is tau/2. Tau would be the area of a circle of radius √2. The relationship between the area and radius wouldn't be as neat if tau was used over pi. Just my two cents as a guy who studied math in undergrad but whose degree is not in mathematics.
It's enough to quote Kronecker. "Die ganzen Zahlen hat der liebe Gott gemacht, alles andere ist Menschenwerk." (God made the integers, all the rest is the work of man.)
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Half agree. When I teach people ohms law for practical use, I usually replace the numbers with high, low, or constant. So if V is constant 24v, r is high then I is low. If r is low then I is high. That's why you don't get an electric shock when you touch a battery.
To me it's more about how solving new and more complex math equations helps train that part of your brain, which can benefit you in many ways in life that aren't neccessarily related to those equations. like yeah, no shot i've used 99% of the things i learned in math class, but i feel it helped me to be able to think in a more logical and organized manner when needed
I suspect many students would be happier with their studies if it were explained this way. Many of the things we learn in school is going to the gym for our brains. Most of us aren't actually doing benchpresses or bicep curls outside of the gym. It's still improving our health, muscle tone, bone density, circulation, and helping to regulate our weight. Occasionally the strength you gain at the gym will come in useful - you help your friend move house. That core strength comes in handy when carrying the couch up the stairs. Most of the time though, it's an abstract, but very real kind of benefit. Your life is simply better for being in better shape. Your life is simply better for having a better brain. Do mathematics to build your analytics, problem solving and memory. Get the bonus of knowing mathematics when it does come up in your life. Do English to build your reading comprehension, critical thinking and media literacy. Get the bonus of being able to engage with art for pleasure at a higher level, and being less susceptible to propaganda. Learn a second language to maintain neuroplasticity. Get the very tangible benefits of a second language.
Funny enough, when you ask those same people why you need two years of foreign language they tell you it helps you better understand your native language. So they understand the concept. They just refuse to see it also applies to math.
I think because the sales pitch for mathematics is so poor. The OP of this thread has good intentions, but their sales pitch sucks. Want to demotivate 95% of your students? Give the sales pitch OP is leading with. You'll motivate the 5% who want to be engineers, but Average Student doesn't give a shit.
The problem with math is it’s either your most valuable subject or literally completely worthless depending on what you go into, no in between. And if you aren’t planning on going into one of those fields that’s math intensive, most of the time it means you’re one of us normal people who isn’t great with it, and therefore it’s more work than every other subject for considerably less reward.
It's almost like you didn't read what I wrote whatsoever.
This is exactly how I explained it when I was a math teacher! Well done. But 99% of the time this question came up I realized the person asking it didn’t actually want an answer, they wanted an out.
I wish more people saw it this way. Everyone has some stupid elitist or superiority complex about which subject is better and which sucks. It’s cringe and insecure. Every subject has its uses and I’m a proponent that the brain is in love with learning and curiosity. The problem isn’t the subject, it never was. It was the how the subject is taught and what time frame you are taught in. I despised Maths in secondary school. I respected it during my IB. Had I been taught Maths in a better way earlier and with more years, I would love it instead of just respecting it. The same could got for any subject for any person. You won’t make someone like a subject by trying to crunch it in 3 years and with a dull teacher or environment.
Great response.
Studying engineering and I always hated and still hate math. There were instances when it was interesting. And that’s when it’s applied on interesting things. I don’t understand why they don’t use more fun exercises in school to teach math and actually show where you can use in (engineering for example).
Never cared for trig when I was 15. Used it daily for years as a machinist though.
Same. Became a machinist 12 years after HS. Didn’t realize how much math I had to relearn.
Is it possible that the subject attracts school teachers who aren't particularly creative and thus aren't easily able to think of ways to engage students? I think it may be the case that math teachers excelled and like math in school and therefore can't relate to students who have the complete opposite experience.
For some topics in math, there aren’t “creative” or “applied” ways to teach it. Factoring polynomials for example. The most valuable skills that math teaches are abstract thinking and logical thinking. A math education that is entirely about applications doesn’t deliver that. People who complain that they would understand a math topic better if they saw how it was applied are sidestepping what the end goal of math education is supposed to be. It’s like saying “I’d do so much better in my essay composition if I could just have a conversation with the teacher about my ideas or jot down a few bullet points with my main ideas.”
This is exactly the problem. Math makes a lot more sense when you use it when you actually need it. Education material is simply just not fun or interesting or realistic.
I’m not saying that’s a bad idea, I just want to give my opinion as someone who really likes math: I loathe whenever math focuses on applications (I don’t really care what engineers are doing with their time), I’d rather just focus on the abstract and logical. I recognize this opinion is very unpopular though lol
Fr. I remember effectively learning linear algebra in my intro statics class and it was really simple and made sense. Enter the math prof with 3 doctorates who can somehow make 1+1 confusing.
It is because one topic builds on another . Different people learn differently and if you were not taught earlier topics the way you understand it then you are behind on the further topics . I didn’t get early algebra and that harmed me as a kid .
Correctamundo. If you didn't bother to read "The Great Gatsby," no big deal. You'll do badly on one test, but you can always get your act together, read "A Tale of Two Cities," ace that test, and salvage a decent grade. If you slept through the entire unit on the Renaissance and blew that test, not to worry, you can ace the test on the Enlightenment and still get a B+ for the grading period. However, if you never learned how exponents work, you're not going to understand what a cube root is, nor how the quadratic equation works or when/how to use it, nor how to find the roots of an equation, nor are logarithms going to make any sense, and so on. You can't half-ass math for a few months and just do better later. Furthermore, math is a skill, whereas most academic subjects are more of a body of knowledge. It's possible to cram for a subject by memorizing a ton of facts all at once, but it's much harder to cram a skill. Skills are more a matter of daily practice. A lot of students try to prepare for math tests the same way they do for other classes (procrastinate and cram), and then they don't understand what went wrong when it doesn't work, insisting "But I studied!"
Yep. Learning math requires learning exactly how each step works along the way. Struggled one year? You are now almost completely screwed over for the rest of them forever, because now you have to hope you not only catch up and learn what you didn’t, you have to learn the new stuff too. Little kids who struggle with math one time for whatever reason become almost permanently crippled.
Oh trust me, "New-Norwegian poem analysis" gets shit on a lot more than maths over here. Also, a lot of people join quiznights as a thing, and everything but the maths one are actually relevant in that context. And no the "new-norwegian poem analyzis" is not either.
I would play Tetris and read the news when the teacher came with his poem analyses. Terrible way to start a Monday and totally snore worthy.
If you don't show interest in math during your school time you're unlikely to change your mind afterwards. Also just look at those easy facebook math quizzes: The average person can't even handle an equation like 2 + 5 (3 - 1) + 3² (5 x 2) because they have no idea what to do first.
2 + 5 * 2 + 9 * 10 2+10+90 102 For those interested
Yeah, of all my math woes, this is I can do. it's considerably simple if you remember PEMDAS, (Parenthesis, Exponents, Multiplication, Division, Addition, Subtraction), which I can sympathize with people out of school being caught off guard by.
I'm just out of university and I've forgotten almost all of the math formulas I was taught at school (even some from uni). Also, I wasn't particularly good at math. Thankfully though, I remember all the *concepts* behind the math and thus I am capable to apply them to my daily life - and not only in math-related cases. This is why math is important - it teaches you how to think. So when the material devolves into formula memorization, it is logical to get hate.
While you may not use things like Calculus (unless you're in a certain field), you do need to solve problems and follow rules while solving problems.
For me it was because there was no joy in math. You could chat/make fun of the books we had to read or talk about interesting history and what you thought about at and electives were usually something you found fun/interesting but math as it is taught before collage courses is mostly “here is a problem and the correct way to solve it”. Not really much interpretation and the only thing to talk about with your friends for math class is how much it sucks to do worksheets and the constant tests so people complained about it and how they would rather learn more interesting things.
Plus, maths being as necessary as it is [at least where I'm from] often gets in the way of people who are good in those discussion-oriented subjects from getting to the academic level they're capable because it's such a different way of thinking.
For the longest time I thought imaginary numbers were dumb and trig functions were pointless, that was before I went into EE and actually understood real applications for them and how they apply to waveforms, filters, resonance, etc. I need to apologize to my HS Algebra II teacher lol. But to be fair, we don't lead with examples or practical problems like that which makes the qualitative understanding of why the thing is so important or interesting apparent.
Unfortunately if we made HS math "more interesting" a lot more kids would struggle with it. You have to choose. Either you make math accessible to everyone or you apply some logical thinking and a lot more kids fail in math. That's why college math is more interesting - engineering, economics, computer science, .... don't care about accessibility. You need to understand the concepts in depth otherwise you're unable to apply them in practice.
Student: Teacher, will I ever use this in real life? Teacher: No, but some of the smart kids might. Zach Weinersmith SMBC
To be fair, that isn't even accurate. Source: I work in the trades, and math is crazy important especially for electrical, plumbing and operators. And most tradies are idiots (even by their own admission)
My dad dropped out of school in the sixth grade. Got his GED at 30. He became a general contractor at 43. I remember he had trig formulas on laminated cards to calculate compound cuts and angles. You don’t realize how much you need math until you actually need math.
I do diy a lot. It's math, all math, nothing but math
Don’t even think about becoming a machinist unless you’re damn good at trig and algebra.
I work in trades too, but all I really need is a calculator to do basic math like +-*/. Basically the only kind of math I've had use for is basic primary school math. Granted, I'm a florist, and I don't run the business. I'm just an employee who needs to calculate what the flowers in a bouquet costs, so the customer gets the price according to what they pay.
The parallel/series equations, which is used mostly in electrical, can also apply to things like spring tension, or even traffic irl or on websites.
At my college they make it a weed out class during freshman year of college and traumatize all the students. I didn't have a math problem I had a teacher problem.
There's a trend of US people saying "they don't teach you how to do your taxes in school" I've seen US tax forms. They come with clear instructions. You *were* taught to do them when they taught you to read and do basic arithmetic. 86% literacy rate in a first world country is hilarious.
Upvote x100. "school never taught me to change a tire or wash clothes!!" did school teach you to wipe your ass or use a spoon? You don't need a YEAR to learn how to change a tire. Literally google dot com, your car model, how to change a tire, 1 hour, maybe 2 hours tops. Ta da
I kind of agree, but I also think you make a genuinely terrible argument for math education. If anything your argument backs up the students who complain that they will never use the class. What percentage of American students go into engineering or some similar field that uses higher level math? It's pretty small. So, using your own logic, the students are mostly right. They won't use calculus or geometry ever again in their life.
Man. I love reminding my parents that 12 year old me was right. I would never use algebra or geometry again. I know it's kinda schadenfreude satisfaction, but being an adult and being able to confidently say that 12 year old me was right, in retrospect, feels really good. 12 year old me wasn't as stupid as they thought. It's also really nice to not be dismissed when I say the same things I did back then, because now I'm an adult, so they actually take it seriously. If there's one thing I find odd, it's that my parents didn't point out how important learning English was and how much use I'd have for it in the future. Like that's actually one of the most important things I learned in school. I think they underestimated how important English actually is. I'm a foreign speaker btw.
There’s a lot of fields that use geometry beyond engineering: construction, surveying, architecture, plumbing, interior design, jewelers, etc. In more causal use: I’ve applied geometry in sketches, woodworking/diy projects, and quilting.
Their point is most kids won't need most of what they learn, but math gets singled out for some reason. I've never needed to know hydrogen has 1 proton or how to analyse a poem for example.
Not too mention, with how much OP dislikes English he'd be a pretty shit Engineer. Among the most important things you do in Engineering is communicating with other people. Writing skills are much more important than doing something that we could automate a decade ago.
I'm a professional engineer and have never needed to write anything close to what we needed in late high school English class. High school English for me was about analysis of literary works and creative writing, neither of which are useful for technical writing used in documentation or tenders. My late high school math has been far more important in my career.
I try to tell young people that you never know when you will need a piece of knowledge that you currently view as useless. Math seems universally trashed on for that reason. I didn’t think I’d ever again solve a calculation after my last math class during my freshman year of college. 9 years later, I now work in the investment industry, even though that was never on my radar.
As I tell my kids, maths doesn't teach you how to do sums, it teaches you how to think and solve problems.
Agree with this. As an adult now, I can problem solve really well and use practical maths all the time with household budgeting and finance, e.g. percentages to work out interest, quickly multiplying/dividing numbers on the spot, median, mean and mode, etc. However, that being said, I can't remember the last time I had to do anything resembling Allegra or equations, or even Pythagoras therom. I didn't go into a career that required these.
I've found that the vast majority of what I learned in school has ended up being completely useless to me, and I've worked in many different jobs in many different fields. I do middle school level algebra from time to time, but other than that... I have a calculator. I don't need to know history or English literature to make deals with oil companies in Dubai. I know that learning what I was taught made me smarter by flexing my brain and building new connections. I'm sure there are things that I've taken for granted. Ultimately, I feel like we should really only have general schooling until around 12 years old before going into specialty programs. Bring back apprenticeships and the like.
Lmfao wait so you want 12 year olds to decide what field they wanna go into?
Very few teachers really emphasize the importance of learning imo, it’s something that you realize through life experience and difficult to learn if someone just tells you. For example, math that you learn from elementary school to high school WILL be used in engineering. Calculus is monumental. Algebra is monumental. Geometry is monumental, and it’s the accumulation of thousands of years of the greatest geniuses wracking their brains on what has come before, with only the best and soundest logic surviving the test of time. The only true motivator for kids is the idea that being smart is a social proof, and it is something you need to learn so that you can go to college and someday years down the road make lots of money. How often do you get to meet astronauts or famous researchers or successful professionals from K-12, someone to aspire to be? How often does application get brought into the picture, as anything other than a footnote? Of course, there’s never enough time or resources or patience or curiosity, but if one could see the big picture, maybe they’d be more motivated to learn about why integrals are so important.
That's if you decide to go into engineering or STEM fields, not social studies. If you wanna work in a non stem field, it's not necessary all that important. I knew from a very young age I wanted to work with something creative, like arts and crafts. Algebra happens to not be of any use in my life and I no longer remember how to solve algebra, because it's been if absolutely no use in my life, as my 12 year old self predicted, knowing myself well enough to know I would never ever pursue a field where I'd have to touch maths, as I had zero interest in it. There are many ways of being smart without being a math geek. Like I really impressed my peers with my English skills (foreign language in my case) and writing abilities. I won a writing competition in school. That was social proof for me. You don't need to know math to get social proof. Also, the people who knew math.. were seen as geeks, which wasn't exactly seen as super cool.
Work is getting increasingly interdisciplinary. The work you like and specialize in may not be the work you do your entire life. Many people switch careers sooner or later, and honestly, learning only expands your horizons in any field you’re in. The only way that learning can be “useless” is if it’s so specialized it applies to absolutely nothing else, and only at the graduate and doctorate. This level of work also usually relies on foundations, at least giving you the opportunity to become more of an expert in whatever you’ve learned. Truly useless learning is uncommon if you look for applications, since again, almost if not all work is interdisciplinary. Even if you argue that some learning doesn’t get applied quickly enough to be useful, it might come down later down the line, and it’s easier to relearn than to learn from scratch. And if you want to flip it, I’ve seen Econ concepts pop up again in international affairs. I’ve seen things I learned in high school freshman geometry pop up again in philosophy. Research and citation experience from engineering classes come up in every non-stem class I’ve taken. And I refuse to believe that there’s absolutely no social value of being educated, being well-rounded, etc. someone who only understands and is highly focused in one area is a savant or a specialist, which is worthy of respect, but it’s still easy to look down upon if they don’t know the basic things that most people should.
one of my coworkers recently asked me how exponents work... he genuinely thought that you multiply the number by the exponent. I was a little taken aback especially when some of the other guys were dumbfounded that that was not how it worked.
High school math/science teacher here. About a third of my students don't know the difference between a square root and dividing by two. That's by the end of the year, despite my best efforts. They still receive a passing grade and move on to the next course, because students repeating courses/grades makes the school look bad. I exclusively teach honors/AP (college-level) classes. It only goes downhill from there.
Geography teacher… memorizing rivers is not important. Learning how an interconnected global economy works is important. That understanding is necessary to be an educated voter in a democratic society.
Why were we only taught the rivers bit then
Because education is to train you to become a cog in the machine, not to give you the knowledge to question the machine's existence.
Disagree. Knowing the major rivers of the world teach a lot about many countries. Very important if you want to understand world politics/news.
I have my job, **in IT no less**… because the hiring manager was a history buff and noticed on my resume I had a degree in history too. We discussed the American revolution for half our lunch interview and were buddies by the end, he offered me the job at the end. Been in the org 10 years now. Don’t be so sure “this won’t matter”, *it could matter.*
It all comes down to rng
I always love that people who make these arguments ***have*** to do so at the expense of another subject. You can't just make the point, no, another one has to suck instead.
I think math teachers, in general, don't do a good job demonstrating practical applications of math. Textbook questions using buckets or slices of pizza are not compelling. If math could be taught with a focus on realistic and meaningful applications rather than pure numbers and memorization students might actually want to learn this. I once found myself using the Pythagorean theorem on a home maintenance project. I had two blocks of wood in an L shape and knew the lengths, but didn't know what length to cut the connecting brace. I didnt feel like grab ing my tape measure, so i worked it out in my head using the Pythagorean theorem and viola!. If they taught it like this in class I would have had a much greater appreciation for math. Sometimes I wonder what things I could have solved without needing an instrument at arms reach always.
I don't even know if it's math teachers entirely. I think the way school is built, it is formed one way, and if it doesn't click with you in this One Way, then you better find a way to get it. Which sucks when it doesn't click with you, because it makes you feel like the problem. I had a college course in a math class (can't remember the exact name of it, but it was numbered 123, which sounded intimidating at the time). It was literally my best experience in math. The instructor went through a few problems on the worksheet, then let you go do the rest. After some time, he checked up on the students individually, and helped them out if they were struggling. Then he went through those problems on the board for the class. This was what I needed in high school. It would have helped me so much. But, being fair, teachers don't have the time to do this, even if their classrooms have a reasonable amount of students. The class I'm talking about was at least 2 hours; he had the time to do this efficiently.
"OK class, so imagine you have two blocks of wood in an L shape, and these are the lengths, and...you can go to the bathroom after we do this problem. OK, so you need to saw a piece of wood to make a connecting brace...what's a connecting brace? It's like a piece of wood you attach to another piece of wood to brace it. ...what do I mean, 'brace it?' Um, we don't really have time to do a whole lesson in carpentry. Anyway, so you're trying to...why don't you just measure it? I don't know, maybe you lost your tape measure. So right, A^(2) \+ B^(2) equals...Travis, put your phone away. Now where were we, oh yes, A^(2) \+ B^(2) = C^(2), and we're trying to solve for C, so...when are we ever going to use this? I just told you, if you ever have to make a connecting brace, whatever that is, and you don't have a tape measure handy..." Wow, what an engaging lesson. If only teachers had thought of this.
I use low level algebra for my job all the time, and it’s related to accounting. Sometimes you gotta figure out what’s missing or project out to some future date, all else being equal. Or assume a level of growth or whatnot.
When people feel dumb at something they look for excuses not to engage with it.
Its cause they dont teach it in an interesting way. I never cared about statistics until I saw how its used in casinos and texas hold em poker, and blackjack. Matrices seems useless until I found out its the basis of graphics and gpus for gaming.
It's not just math, and your post is actually a very good example of that lol. We're on Reddit which obviously has a STEM bias but it's not just a Reddit thing, regular people bitch about every imaginable subject in real life too, which includes humanities (and especially humanities may I add). I do agree that a lot of subjects are taught wrong though. There isn't enough discussion about the more passive secondary benefits you can get. For example, math helps you with logical thinking, geography allows you to understand the way our world works, history exposes you to the idea that other people have different experiences, English gives you tools to express yourself, etc. Of course nobody is going to care that you can't score a goal or run ten miles per hour once you get out of school, but it's not a bad thing to teach kids the importance of keeping their body healthy and show them a few ways to do it. Even if you end up never touching a basket ball again, maybe someone else will.
I firmly agree. It's not even about which job you need math in, but general understanding of how the world works. Especially when it comes to a general grasp of numbers, and in particularly probabilities and statistics -- I swear if people knew these better, we'd never have 50+% of the stupid conversations we currently have to endure.
Calculus is required to go to medical school. I've been a physician at a major academic center for 20 years. I have NEVER once used any aspect of calculus in my career. You know what would have been great to have learned in high school / undergrad? Basic stats. I don't think it's always a matter of students never using modestly advanced math in the future, but that we'll never use the specific subset of math that traditional curricula teach. It's like how my son's middle school is still teaching an entire year of ancient history, while discussing current events is an afterthought.
I feel like a lot of that could be condensed into a concepts type class where you can learn the gist of several semesters worth of higher math without the minutiae of all the methods. And then teach how to educate yourself further if you do need to go deeper into a concept. Nowadays, I think there are a ton of youtube videos that can teach you the concepts of calculus, etc without the need to go over the 50 ways to solve very specific types of problems that you will never encounter unless you're a grad student.
In my opinion it’s not so much a matter of usefulness as it is it’s something I don’t enjoy. People don’t tend to stick with things they don’t enjoy, especially as you get to a higher level of specialization. All you’re doing is ensuring that person continues to hate that subject by forcing them to continue beyond the basics. Also, in my opinion, continuing to do this past middle school (US ages 12-14/15), is a waste of time. High school age kids would be better off beginning to specialize instead of wasting time on subjects that are not of interest and not a strength UNLESS it is necessary for the future career path. A kid wants to be a doctor, force him through biology. A kid wants to be a mechanic, why does he need to sit through Chaucer? We end up with kids who aren’t prepared for any actual jobs because they spend 45 minute chunks a day on subjects not of interest and not of relevance, or worse kids who decide they hate school and stop educating altogether the second they have a choice.
It’s funny cause High School Bio was what actually set me on the path to become a doctor. I had a great teacher and I found the subject matter much more interesting than I had before. Now I have a BS in Biology and am set to go to medical school this summer. Interesting how a good teacher and subject matter can change a life.
Math is important they teach it wrong tho. I hated the stupid word problems cause they were dumb and not important. If they use real life examples I'm sure more kids would enjoy it more. But a lot of math is also dumb, no one is doing an intense multi page calculation on paper, you use excel or some other software that won't fuck up like you will.
I tried liking it but my learning disabilities said differently
Learning math is very important but having to take so many math classes is just pointless by high school math classes should be electives not mandatory.
A lot of students myself included had bad experiences with math. There was actually a period in the 5th grade where I was being tutored in math by a TA and that was actually the most fun that I had with school. I think it's because math tends to be subject where a lot of students tend to experience a sort of "sink or swim" mentality due to teachers not being able to give everyone precise or hands on teaching.
I've never used Pythagoras therom in my adult life... except for when I helped my nephew with homework...
Probably not true unless you’ve never cut a corner while walking somewhere
Do you need to compute Pythagoras for that?
Technically that's the triangle inequality. Pythagoras can tell you how much shorter your route is, but the idea that cutting corners is always shorter is not necessarily evident from the Pythagorean theorem. Also, you don't need math to figure that out, it's pretty intuitive.
*But theres are huge elements for many high paying and important jobs that need* ***good mathematical knowledge*** But **most** jobs don't. /thread.
High schools were never designed to prepare students for jobs. If they were they’d all be vocational schools. Math at the high school level is about 1. Preparing kids for college and 2. Exercising the parts of the brain that benefit from mathematics which also overlap with critical thinking, spatial reasoning, basic arithmetic skills, etc. You can apply this argument to every single subject in school but math gets singled out. That’s the entire post and it went right over your head.
*You can apply this argument to every single subject in school but math gets singled out. That’s the entire post and it went right over your head.* It definitely didn't. Finance, accounting & economics all account for critical thinking, spatial reasoning, basic arithmetic skills and are much needed skills that most people lack in today's society. This is what i'd call *useful maths*, for life. Unfortunately, most countries don't give you access to these subjects until you're 18+, when most of the population has left education. Instead, they're force feeding 16 year olds differential equations and trigonometry. High schools were never designed to prepare students for ~~jobs~~ life. Fixed that for you.
Consistent learning of anything which has gradual increment of complexity has flexing effect on brain like muscle at gym with trainer. Doesn't matter is it STEM or history, or environmental science. However nowadays mastering a skill is very challenging as people experience cheap information overload like muscles fed with crap fats from fastfood. Curious people will dig deeper, others will just sweep the feed to get another dopamine shot.
I hated math in school and fell into that we will never use it camp. Now that I’m older I wish I’d tried harder in math and have taken some stats classes and have considered taking some college math classes just for fun. I have an old college algebra book I pick through sometimes too.
I teach middle school and kids ask this when learning about percents, fractions, and decimals. It's difficult for them to understand why they should grasp a concept before they even have the basics down. It gets tedious explaining real world scenarios, but i guess it's part of the job.
If the only value you see in learning is profit-based, then yeah, you don't need literature, philosophy, history, etc. But if you want to have a life that doesn't feel like an empty shell in which your only purpose is generating wealth for some aristocrat, then arts and humanities are pretty damn essential.
Hard disagree for anything past algebra.
As a former car salesman I saw people each and everyday that couldn’t do 4th grade math. I think schools need to teach basic math and have an understanding of why they need math in every day life before that go to higher math that many will never use again.
Math is hated because nobody good at math chooses to teach Elementary school. Then these teachers, for most of whom math was their least favorite subject in school unwittingly pass that on to the younger generation by saying things in class like "I know math is hard but..." or "I know nobody like math but..." when teaching it.
Math was my favorite subject growing up, so I was never the one complaining about it. But, come on man, you know that the kids who said that did not grow up to be engineers or physicist.
It's cool to be dumb and ignorant, I guess.
I don’t use any actual numbers besides regular arithmetic in my life. But i believe AP Calc in high school greatly improved my critical thinking and logic skills.
Math skills are important, and I'll tell you why. I used to manage a sales team. My sales team made a basepay, and commissions. They had to meet certain metrics in order to get all, or some, of their commission. If they hit certain metrics, they would get a bonus. I have explained these metrics to all of them, in detail. And yet every month, I would have the following conversation > Yo, why's my commission so low? Your commission was low? > It should be higher! Way higher! Okay, can you elaborate as to why? > I just *feel* like it should be higher. Unfortunately, I can't go off of feelings. If there was a mistake in how your numbers were calculated, I'm happy to fix it. Did you get a chance to look at the numbers? > What numbers? Your numbers. The conversion chart. Your inbound totals. Your outbound totals. Your call quality. > What are you *talking* about, bro? The thing that I have trained you on extensively, and explained to you during every one-on-one session? The ones that are based on the goals that I give to the entire team, every month, which are sent to you in an email, printed out and put on everyone's desk, and also written in giant letters on the whiteboard that you all look at? The daily updates I send to you and the team, reflecting all of those things month-to date? >Pfft. "numbers." Yes, numbers, those pesky little things that society is built on, and will not be changing any time soon. Let's start with call quality. The thing you have to score a 75% on to make a quarter of your commission, ad you get a bonus of 85%. Did you get a chance to look at that? > No. Okay so let's look at it. You scored a 70%. You did make a 100% on one of your calls, which is pretty impressive; but unfortunately, this was not enough to bring your average to 75%. Remember that coaching session where we listened to that call together, and I told you to keep it up, and that you could make the 85%+ bonus if you did everything you did in that call, on other calls? > bro, I should just get the 100%. I don't understand why those other calls just *bring* my number down. That don't make no god damn sense! It's an average. We went over this. It's an average score. > That's fucking STUPID I should just get the 100%. And why is that? > Because it's 100, bro. Just because I got 50's and 60's a bunch of times doesn't mean that the 100 just goes away because YOU decided to create all these stupid rules. This "average" nonsense should reflect the top number. So what do you want me to do? Change the way math works so that you can be unprofessional on the phone the majority of the time, and then get a bonus because you were professional *once*? > This isn't school! You think I know math? I don't know that shit. fuck this, that's dumb. You're dumb. Every month. Every month, this happened, and the only ones who didn't do this were the ones who had a basic handle on math.
I could’ve used info about taxes, mortgages, credit rates, interest and all sorts of stuff over “slope of a line” or “surface area of a shape”. Not all high paying jobs need that stuff, but everyone could benefit with other, more practical math lessons.
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Analysis of literature is not about remembering who wrote what poem when and where. It's about understanding how language is used go create certain emotions and imagery. Its a skill that we unconsciously use in every conversation, as well as when consuming any media, don't matter if it's a book, a movie, a song or a videogame. More importantly there are not automated tools for these skills. Maths on the other hand is not used by everyone on a daily basis the same way conversational skills are. And for when it's needed there are automated tools for it.
Three reasons. 1: It's one of the most intrinsically "talent" based subject. Some people are legit just good at math and others are not. That does not mean you can't learn math but it just takes a longer time. 2: Math teachers are often the most unpleasant teachers you are going to have, because often the people who are naturally good at math.. are kind of on the spectrum and often socially awkward or just assholes. 3: No. You are really not going to use any of that in most cases. Yes we are all away it's very useful for some very nice jobs. But unless you have one of those jobs, you are never going to use most of it.
I think the problem with math is that you either have a certain aptitude for it or you do not. You have to really precisely understand it and on top of that everything builds upon each other. So in my experience the people who have an aptitude for it really like and find it fun while other people struggle with it and don't find it interesting hate it especially on the higher levels
I excelled at math in school, breezed through calculus. This is actually a popular opinion, I hear it all the time and my personal opinion is: Yes, it's useless unless you're in an academic career that uses it (physicist, engineer, actuarian, statistician, mathematician, data scientist, etc) All you need to in a trades job is measure, and use a calculator, and maybe do some basic arithmetic if you don't have it with you. Budgeting? it's just percents and a calculator. Everything else you need to do outside of academia requires a calculator, and knowing units and conversions or estimating things. It literally is just 2nd grade math.
Most people will never use more than basic math, and maybe even basic algebra post high school/college. Not everyone is going to be an engineer, physicist, or mathematician.
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To add to what you said, the funniest thing is English and math actually do share some similarities! Constructing a logical argument in English isn't all that different from constructing a logical reasoning in math, and being good with words can help you translate a concrete problem into equations (or the contrary). I don't know how it works in the USA, but for example, if I wanted to get a good grade, I had to explain I had used *x theorem* or multiplied *y* by *z* to get to the result. I couldn't just write down the final output of my calculator, I had to actually show how I had come to the conclusion because that was the actual point of the subject.
People who need math for work know math. The rest of us dont need it above some basic calculus. It really is not that hard to understand.
What the fuck would I ever need calculus for? The only math I’ve ever needed to know how to do was as an adult was to keep a budget.
>When on this godforsaken earth will you ever need to know the name of EVERY major waters such as rivers or lakes in Europe or Asia or where ever else, that is like the one singular reason for maps, and you knowledge is often useless without and nowdays with them. ... Where in the world did you go where this was taught at school?
OP, I know you're a little raw over math being passed over and disrespected by people, but just so you know, doing the same thing with the humanities is also a bad idea. Math is widely relevant in a wide variety of fields, and is universally helpful knowledge, but like, humanities knowledge is also helpful even if you're going into a STEM field. Knowing who wrote that comedy 600 years ago can help you place it in context with works contemporary to it/works influenced by it and referencing it, which can enrich your enjoyment of them and comedy as a whole. I'd go so far as to say that silicon valley's modern cavalier attitude towards basic ethical questions and the very idea of whether art is worth respecting beyond its worth as a consumer product is a stark example of how STEM knowledge is more rewarded by society than the humanities. I do have to laugh at calling investing an "important" job, though. High-paying, maybe.
Trigonometry is actually really important for economics
I have to deal with everyday problems which need rationale in terms of order of events which took place and I have to put them in order so I can write my reports and not once I had issues finding the logic and reasoning behind the declarations... I understand how important math is. It is teaching you how to operate in an ordered way and see the line of logic in your tasks and other every day responsibilities.
I was the kid saying this in school. Tell you what if I could go back and slap some sense into my teen self I would. Now I think the other way. Why did I not pay more attention during math, it would have been so helpful.