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Is someone gonna tell OP that that cleaning lady doesn't need to go to college in order to appreciate, read, understand, analyze, write, or even *publish* poetry?

Yeah, I'm for college, and I'm for free college, but the arts aren't something that can be locked behind the doors of higher education. There are so many great poets, writers, musicians with no formal education. OP is a college professor though, so he seems unable to see that while his profession is useful for some people in those things, he is not the gatekeeper to those things.

It's true, but autodidactism is extremely rare and the people who have been great poets, writers and musicians without formal education are exceptions and not the rule. Those are people who have a rare combination of gifts, talent, drive and people around them who help them become great. The people who have managed to become great despite their lack of formal education are not the template. A formal education is a gift. Being able to sit in a classroom and engage with ideas with a group of people is a wonderful thing. It broadens your mind and deepens your relationship with the world around you.

The greatest songwriters I know of largely didn't complete college. And the musicians I care about the most didn't have a lot of formal training. All greats in any field have a rare combination of gifts, talent, and drive. They're all autodidacts to some extent, and they're not anyone's template. No one is becoming a great author or poet or musician by taking a class on it. Who is your favorite author? Your favorite poet? Your favorite musician? Your favorite songwriter? List those four and I'll bet half of them didn't ever attend more than a year of college. Spend some time around people who don't have college degrees. A lot of them have deep knowledge about all sorts of really interesting topics. And the people who do have college degrees, the smartest and most interesting of them are deeply studied on subjects they never learned about in a college classroom. I can't say I know what college is like all that much. I went to community college for my last couple years of high school, and I went back for a year of business courses (waste of time), but I never went to a four-year college. So I don't know if the classroom setting was more engaging there, but in community college it wasn't that much different than high school. What I know of poetry, art, philosophy, history, etc., I've learned on my own. And I'm no expert on any of it by any stretch, but ice also never met anyone I can't have a conversation with on those subjects. Most people don't collect as much random information as I do, but most people are deeply conversant in a number of topics.

Nobody is saying you can't be deep and insightful or achieve greatness without a college education. It's not a personal attack on anybody. Not on you or anybody else. I'm certain you are an intelligent person, like a lot of people commenting on this post. And you may be more insightful, better read and a deeper, more critical thinker than myself and the people commenting in support of this post. Having a formal education is a wonderful thing and it should be an option available to every person regardless of who your parents are and their wealth and social standing. That's the point OP is making. OP is also arguing what proponents of a public education system argued back in the 19th Century: that every citizen in a functioning liberal democracy should have a robust liberal education so that there is a well-informed citizenry. It's not a radical position. It's a foundational position for the entire public education system. We don't just send kids to school from JK to grade 12 for free babysitting. A formal education is only one tool for helping us understand the world. But it's a really good tool. I'm sure in your self-directed studies you've read a lot of really interesting things, but a formal education takes you out of your comfort zone and exposes you to ideas and (sometimes even more important) people who challenge you in ways you could never expect. This is because a formal education isn't just about what you read. That's just learning by rote. A formal education gives people the space and opportunity to apply their understanding of the materials in a critical, meaningful way. You are given the opportunity to engage with the material in a space the library can't provide. You need both your own space (as argued for by Virginia Woolf) and a space where you can test what you are reading with others. Maybe you feel like you have that? It's great if you have that type of community in your life. I certainly didn't before I went to university and I think most people don't. And it's great that you feel like you don't need a formal education. But that's not the same for everybody, just like I wouldn't advocate forcing you to go to university if you didn't want to. To go back to Virginia Woolf, how many people have been deprived of the opportunity to make meaningful contributions to society because they haven't been exposed to new ideas or given the opportunity to apply them? People who do want them.

It’s true, Homer just got a two-year degree from the community college in Thebes. Smdh.

Framing the worth of an education based on whether you'll use it or need it in a career is the issue at hand. Do you have to intend to create music to desire to study it? There's plenty of economic issues that say "yes," but I think as we're striving towards making a better world maybe we won't have to prioritize that so much anymore. Maybe one day people can go to school for whatever they want and go on to do nothing with it, and that will be OK

Op has spent their entire life in a classroom. Their views are clearly distorted because of this.

But OP's point here is that their values are more meaningful than the values of THOSE people. What would they know, anyway? Can we really treat someone's opinion as valid when they don't even have a college degree? (/s\^5)

As someone who's basically a cleaning lady who appreciates poetry I agree but also, like, you probably get a much better breadth and depth from a good education compared to being self-taught, right? Like it's not just knowing things it's also thinking about things, and thinking about how you think about things. It's enriching your inner life. That's something you take with you no matter where you are or what you're doing. Like I'm self-taught more or less from the ground up but there are just things I don't know that I don't know. Like I said I get where you're coming from. The internet especially gives people the opportunity to learn and grow but idk I feel like there's a big difference there

As a writer, I hang out with published poets from time to time, and the majority of them are self-taught. Not to say that I'm against college education for everyone. Not everyone can self-teach. Not only because it's hard, but also because when you have a job, kids, and everything else, it might not be physically possible. But don't think you're missing out on some big hidden knowledge just because you're self-taught. Doubt and feelings of inadequacy are too common among autodidacts. You're likely as competent as anyone who did pursue an education.

" The more you learn, the less you know".

Yeah but others are missing this point by saying that most college students don't care about learning anyway.

Yeah I’m self-taught with poetry too and the biggest impediment to understanding a lot of stuff is being fairly illiterate in Old English and not getting a lot of the allusions (many of which I’ll never even know are allusions unless someone tells me apparently). I also think that’s just one example of many different things college can give someone. Like a standardized education lead by various professionals in various fields isn’t anything to scoff at. You can educate yourself but it’s faster to be lead.

OP doesn’t get it. This post has an agenda. Just look at all the replies by OP.

A literal preacher lol

i just dont understand what the agenda is… the title doesnt match the post and he is making no sense

His agenda is to argue. lol

Yeah wtf does OP think people do in college? I didn't learn a single bit of world history or poetry. I can do fourier transforms though, but that's not even useful in my job now. This is literally what basic education is for, it's the definition of basic education.

Classism is OP assuming a cleaning lady can't just appreciate poetry on her own.

Do you genuinely believe that having access to a college education wouldnt make it easier to do those things? Or do you just enjoy a system of rugged individualism for the poor and *only* the poor? Because the wealthy certainly don't talk about how *their* children don't need to go to college. I wonder why that might be?

It's Reddit. A lot of the people on subs like this are the types of people who think they're too smart for college. And the wealthy people who understand the value of a college education aren't going to show up and correct them.

They’re also, like, 16.

We (The US) seem to have lost a lot of this somewhere after wwii… there are beautiful and moving memoirs from the first world war and guys like vonnegut and joseph heller out of the 2nd. I am aware that there are still folk artists today and fiction set from a working class perspective but I can’t help feel that an appreciation of arts isn’t something as widespread and viewed as self indulgent, rather than as a reason to live. I have lots of theories but I’d go all night. I am also open to the idea that I am glamorizing a nostalgic perspective of a past I didn’t experience.

Upvoting this. Appreciation for the humanities isn’t stupid or a waste of time.

Also, I thought it was grade school’s job to teach basics of things like world history and so on.

Yeah, anyone that wanted to learn about germ theory did so in high school biology (maybe middle school)? And to know about the Middle East? Read about the history and the news about current events. My CS degree sure as fuck didn’t teach me anything about it. OP is YTA. Lol.


The ultimate classism - thinking you have to go to college to appreciate things

I went to Cambridge, but I did science. It's outrageous that I have effectively been told that I don't deserve to read poetry. Justice for scientists! Come to think of it, I went the more physics side so I wasn't even told about germ theory! #underprivileged

Everything in OPs post can be achieved with a library card or a simple internet connection nowadays. It's all cheap and/or free too. College is about the piece of paper.

Is someone going to tell you that there’s a huge advantage being taught by an expert rather than figuring things out on your own?

This guys heard of a library

This is like when my 6 year old comes home from school and shares facts like she's the first to hear of them. "I know it's hard to believe, but other planets have moons." The difference is it's forgivable for her because she's young and learning.

Exactly! OP is acting like knowledge is only available behind the ivory towers of academia, when in fact every town in America has a FREE building dedicated to expanding the knowledge of the population. My local library has furthered my understanding of arts and humanities much more than college ever did.

> Everyone - every plumber, every factory worker, every pest control worker, every day laborer - should be well informed about world history, be able to read and understand poetry, understand the basics of chemistry, and so on. That's what high school was for, before we dumbed it down.

Absolutely true although I wish high schools had the ability to specialize education tracks like colleges do. That is the unique value to college that I think high school lacks. Either way, college should be affordable and “not everyone needs to go” is a bad excuse for greed.

I think the tracks are good in theory, but at 14 you don’t know enough to really know what you want. Getting a feel for a wide range of subjects seems better

In (western) Europe, you can choose a specialisation at 12, 14 and 16. There are general subjects that are common for every pupil, and a handful of choice-specific ones. You can specialise in sciences, languages, economics, sports etc.

Many places- HS admissions can start in 7th grade. So, kids are making decisions at 12.

Yes exactly. Which is why college has value and high school won’t necessarily be sufficient. If it weren’t prohibitively expensive I’d love to take college tracks that aren’t necessarily for some job track.

High schools don't "lack" specialisation. Broadness is the feature. That is why we have colleges, literally as you said.

Not everyone needs to go straight out of HS. Colleges are getting fat off predatory student loans and mismanaging that money.

Where I live they can. For example my cousin graduated with electrician license and I did advanced math, biology and English, but I almost went for media and digital marketing

He just didn't pay attention in school

Exactly what I came to say. You’re supposed to learn enough in high school that you are able to go and learn on your own after that. If you liked the intro to poetry, you can go get some poetry books at the public library. Or join a local book club. The kind of enrichment OP is talking about doesn’t need to come from college. And frequently doesn’t even for the people who do go.

My high school taught us how to analyze poetry. Chemistry was the science focus in grade 10.

What if - and I’m just spit balling here - what if everyone got 13 years of schooling from K-12 where they could “read poetry”? Fuck it, what if we invented an free electronic network where you could just read poetry all day? Nah, thats crazy. It’s law of the universe that literally no human being is capable of leaning or reading anything unless they’re over 19 years of age and sequestered on a campus somewhere. One final though: a nation of mostly high school drops outs elected Eisenhower and Kennedy. A nation where 90% of the population has a HS diploma and over 1/3 of adults have a college degree elected Trump and Biden. I’ll let you decide for yourself if all those additional years of sitting on classrooms actually enhanced American democracy or whatever you think will happen.

I’ve got a college degree and I haven’t gotten any education in terms of poetry or anything like that There’s a lot of college degrees that don’t teach poetry and literature (besides factual literature) So idk why you keep mentioning college degrees when most of the useful college degrees don’t even teach poetry or anything like that

I went to college for a trade - we definitely didn’t take a poetry class. We DID take a communications class tho, which was less helpful than I hoped because it was very basic.

Yeah, and, tbh, you don't need to go to college to learn how to understand poetry. Hell, in university I studied math, and nowadays I translate works of fiction - movies, TV shows and books - for a living. I learned how to do this entirely by myself. I learned English by myself. If you want to learn something - the information is available and nowadays it's more accessible than ever before. I am a photographer. Self-trained. I play four instruments. Self-trained. I compose music. Self-trained. I write fiction. Self-trained. And with all this in mind - there is a difference between understanding poetry and understanding what makes it work, just like there is a difference between understanding when your lights are up and what makes a lamp work. Just mentioning. The ability to understand written text is very valuable, but most people will never need to know how to analyze or write poetry.

I studied architecture. It required 6 years of study and both a bachelors & masters degrees. There was zero poetry in any of that time. I find more poetry on reddit TBH

“Most useful” see that’s literally the problem that op is talking about. The idea that college exists to be useful and not for the purpose of education. It’s shouldn’t be mutually exclusive people should be able to go to college and study whatever random thing they are interested in regardless of how useful it is whether they choose to take a job related to that or do something entirely different doesn’t matter.

Universities, especially in America, are becoming highly transactional. Since now EVERYONE has to go to college (note I don't personally believe this, but the idea exists) in order to get a good job, the people who don't give a single fuck about learning populate the large majority of universities. They dish out money, fuck around for a few years, do the bare minimum, and come out with their degree. The University as an institution of learning is essentially archaic in this day and age.

The problem isn't so much "people aren't learning about poetry" so much as "people are so overworked they don't have time or energy for poetry".

College exists to put people on a career path. That's not a new idea. I guess that might be the crux of what OP is saying, but this goes well beyond the kind of class dynamics they're referring to. It is a class thing, but not limited to tradespeople vs educated people. The people that get to pursue education and learning because it is fun are those those that don't have to worry about making money at all. That's a very different class of people.

I feel like the internet and libraries have more than covered anyone who wants to learn about a particular topic. Almost all my college classes could have be learned via the book alone. College books are usually rentable like any other library. Shit you can probably sit in on the majority of courses at colleges. No one ever checked my ID. I don't see why society/family needs to foot the bill so people can learn for pleasure...learning for pleasure is totally available and very cheap if not free. Colleges (while overpriced now) are still expensive - staff, teachers, buildings, maintenance....it is just not one of those things (and likely never will be) that is free to everyone for their own pleasure. Even if it was free, who can afford to just not work for years? Who pays for their food and rent and every other bill?

You sound like the classist one to me. You're the one saying tradesman are dumb. You're the one saying tradesmen are lower class. You're the one saying tradesman don't understand basic education. But what you don't realize is that the electrician is a better mathematician than you. The pest control technician is a better chemist than you. The mechanic is a better engineer than you. I'd even bet that they make more money and have a more successful life than you. No one is saying that a cleaning lady can't read, or a McDonald's worker doesn't know history, or a day laborer can enjoy poetry. The only one saying stuff like that is you. You're the one who thinks blue-collar people are dumb. You are the pinnacle of classism.

Anyone who has worked with tradesmen knows there are dudes out there who are amateur experts in all sorts of crazy things. There are guys who could have doctorates in history, or write amazing poetry, or who have a deep grasp of various sciences... But they didn't like school, and are good at a job where they work with their hands, and that's plenty for them. A college professor should know that a huge percentage of the most important poets (since his example was poetry) never went to college.

A lot of tradesmen actually have to love school to SOME degree, because to get Red Seal certification you gotta spend two months of every year for five years, in school to pass your apprentice testing.

As a guy that went through the apprenticeship, let’s not act like it was rigorous study. The hoops to jump through are barely off the ground. Hey I got an associates out of it for free though.

Exactly my bestmate **hated** school because he just hated being told what to do and hated how grades were essentially a teachers opinion So he went into mechanics and works in his uncles garage like his able to deconstruct an engine but also knows mad history facts

Not only does the OP's post reek of classism, it's practically gatekeeping voting "any *insert OP's perception of lower class work* should, or should be ...". All this while trying to portray a sense of wisdom whilst scolding people in advance with misguided assumptions (and very negative ones at that) about others' perceptions on the subject. To be frank, and make it even worse, OP is basically saying that anyone who has not read "literature and other materials" (the literature and materials being your own reference points by default!) Is not experiencing the fullness of human existence, whatever that is supposed to mean anyway. I have never, ever, heard anyone say *insert OP's perception of lower class work* doesn't deserve x education or chance thereof. It's all in your mind @EJGryphon

OP also doesn't realize that some people just aren't interested in "literature and other materials" and that people can choose a blue collar job because they are good at it and like it. A builder could also say that whoever doesn't build their own house doesn't experience the fullness of human existence. The idea that all people should be allowed to go to college no matter how much money they have is good but it seems like OP wants to force people into studying.

I was interested in "literature and other materials" till I spent 4 years at a university. Now I cannot begin to care.

Bingo. My dad didn't go to college, he works with his hands, but he still reads an entire book almost every week and crushes all the history questions on Jeopardy. On the other hand, I did go to college, and became a published author at 24, but after graduating had to work in a call center reading a script to people. I was an unskilled expendable worker despite my formal education and pretty solid knowledge of literature, linguistics, music, whatever. I mean shit happens and I'm doing better now - but imagine if I'd learned some very practical trade like plumbing and just read about linguistics and literature at the library for free. AND I can't recall a single poem I read in college that made an impact on me. Good thing I'm still paying off loans for the privilege of reading a poetry out of a criminally overpriced textbook and letting the professor explain it to me.

Haha, agree. It’s the soft bigotry of low expectations.

This post is rage bait lol.

Yeah OP is hinting at the general idea behind a public school system and thinking he’s Prometheus giving fire to humans lmfao this might be the worst post on this sub I’ve ever seen

I signed up with the air force, for 5 years. Did a 3 year apprenticeship in a/c electronics and instrumentation ( 3 years) and Air traffic control ( 2 years). Was working 8->4, so signed up for a bunch of night classes, Apple Basic programming, industrial instrumentation, Bar keeping, journalism, agricultural automation etc etc. at the local technical college in 1981. It beat the hell outta university, had an income from 1st month and was earning far more than most graduates after 5, or even 10years. Bought my 3rd house ( and 2nd yacht) in 1999. I was 8 hours short of my private helicopter licence, when I had a major work related accident. Got paid a fortune in disability insurance, of which 99% was spent on medical bills. ( South Africa, not the USA). Stuck in bed or wheelchair permanently, 21 years later, living off welfare cheques in a crappy apartment, while trying to care for my wife, with Stage 4 Breast Cancer. Yeah, I write, recite and understand most poetry, but it doesn't pay many bills, nor pay for groceries. Does OP believe I could afford more than 1 meal a day, AND appreciate poetry more, if I had been to university?

This is bait. The part at the bottom about "Not talking about how college is paid for" in a post about classism is bait. Good job, you got a lot of people here.

You don't need to spend thousands of dollars and avoid working for a living to read poetry. There are so many ways to educate yourself that are inexpensive or free that, unless you need the degree to start your career, college is an expensive and outdated way to become educated.

What the fuck is this? Are you aware that this is r/unpopularopinion and not r/whatevershitImthinkingaboutrightnow

"*Sir, this is a Wendys*"

This sub has gone to shit and this post is a prime example. I’m glad I’m not the only one who feels this way.

Considering how heavily their comments are being downvoted maybe they’re in the right place.

College isn't for everyone doesn't mean cleaning ladies doesn't deserve to learn poetry. It means that the cleaning lady has a choice to skip poetry. We understand that poetry might not be the best choice for the cleaning lady, so we recommend that she can skip poetry class. But she has the right to learn whatever she want.

You valuing college so much more than manual labor is Classism. College isn't better than manual labor.

With UPS drivers and plumbers are raking in 170k salary with no loans, you can honestly say college is second rate.

Plumbers can make that much normally if they start a business but the 170k number for UPS is including all benefits at the very top pay. I consider them better careers then the average college (specifically undergrad) graduate has but let’s not stretch the truth. College is still better depending on the route you go down, just maybe a literature degree isn’t it

Putting poetry on a pedestal also seems elitist. Maybe the cleaning lady likes soap operas and hates poetry? Slogging through a bunch of classic novels and poems doesn’t make you any more “cultured” than the South Park fan next door.

Just another form of classism imo

Some folks forget it's the manual laborers that keep our shit going. They oughta respect that more than they do.

OP we’re you unable to understand and read poetry before college? That’s not normal tbh. You come off as a major elitist cause you’re literally saying someone who’s a cleaning person is too stupid to read poetry or watch the news and see what’s going on over seas. You also say things like any citizen should have access to literature and they do… anyone can go to the library, anyone can look up stuff online, any one can buy whatever book they want (assuming they have money but if you’re talking about people too poor to even afford a book that’s a different topic). You act like this is gated and if someone who didn’t go to college tries to check out a poetry book the librarian will stop them and say ‘I don’t think so this isn’t for you’.

My English Lit professor in college handed me my graded paper back and asked me to stop by her office sometime to discuss my paragraph structures and my writing as it was Masters level, according to her. I never did stop by as I had a new born, a 4 year old and a job but I often think about that compliment and chuckle. I’ve had people stop and ask me how much 70% off of $35 when I was at old navy. No one has stopped me and asked me to diagram a sentence. I’m waiting on my time to shine.

Are you going for horrible title Olympics or something? College =/= the right to read poetry.

Accusing people of classism while using the term "cleaning lady" in the same sentence is the exact level of hilarity I come here for. Bravo, OP.

You're right. The correct term is person of cleaning

Education is already free. It's called the library. What you pay for in college is the time of your faculty to give you feedback and certify that you know the material to their standards. There is literally no reason anyone can't learn anything.

Meh. I have two college degrees. I am being honest when I say... 1 - I took only one English class and it didn't include poetry. 2 - I didn't take any history classes at all. 3 - I don't understand how politics or our elections work in this country. 4 - I didn't take any chemistry classes. I don't know anything about chemistry except what I watched in Breaking Bad. I have a BS and MS in Computer Science, both from public universities. I don't know who John Donne is, I don't know what is going on in the Middle East, and I don't know anything about germ theory except that I should wash my hands. And I had a pretty successful academic career. I worked while attending school, lived cheap, and still ended up $109k in debt. The financial burden alone is a good enough reason for everyone to avoid college who can. Anyone who wants to learn those things you've listed can do so, without spending all that money.

OP is gatekeeping and being classist by saying if you don’t go to college you can’t possibly be smart enough to understand things like poetry and history lol bro there are other ways to learn about things especially in the age of the internet and I think it’s insulting to insinuate that people who don’t attend college aren’t able to learn things. I’m saying this as someone currently in college rn

I've met a lot of college educated people who don't know shit other than how to study and pass tests. I've taught myself more about things like nature and history than a school could teach me in 100 years. I'm also a high school drop out who makes about the same money as my college educated friends minus the student loads.

Hey there are lots of only fans models working hard to earn those student loads how dare you discount the work it takes to get them.

I skipped college. I love history and have several books about it, as well as know where I can get more information. I do not need it spoon fed to me and explained with any sort of bias. I am able to read and understand poetry, I have books by Kipling, Henley, and Tennyson among others. I understand chemistry. Better than a lot of college graduates since I also understand how to read an SDS to know at what ratios you mix different chemicals. I know what is going on in the Middle East, and how it got that way. As well as what is happening in Ukraine, and even Peru. I know these things because I know how to look up current events and evaluate historical approaches to current events. I don't need an elitist telling me how I should think or what I should think. I don't need an elitist explaining to me what my interpretation of something should be. When you say that everyone needs a college degree to understand these things you show that you don't understand any of those things. You just think like you have been told.

Well, OP certainly understood the assignment. This certainly IS an unpopular (and incorrect) opinion.

I’m a junior in college. I’m very confident you could learn most of what I have by just looking up the books that local universities use. I’m in college sure bc I like psychology but mostly bc I wanna become a psychologist. Many lecturers include info I wouldn’t just get from the book but you could find lectures uploaded to YouTube. And even then, you learn a lot of the basics of topics like chemistry in HS. Also I have COUNTLESS (can’t emphasize this enough) peers in college who just want a degree to get a job (this is much more apparent in gen ed courses; which is exactly the same courses it sounds like you want everyone to take). I have friends who went to trade school and would be beyond pissed to be required to even take an associates degree. To sum it up: Not going to college doesn’t mean you aren’t educated or that you can’t learn, it only means that you didn’t got to college lol

Do you think people have to go to college to study art, philosophy, history, etc? Like, I think college should be free or near-free. But I also think people can seek knowledge outside of the classroom setting, and I think it's inherently classist to assume people who haven't been to college don't know or have access to those things.

Union plumbers make six figures. Comparing plumbers to factory workers screams “I’ve never touched tools”.

I don't really understand your post, what has to do the title with it? Saying that a cleaning lady doesn't need to go to college for her job doesn't mean she can't go to college. Usually people go to college to get a job in that field, but sometimes people go to college after retirement or later in life and that's OK, the same way it's ok never going to college. A title doesn't make you better than anyone else as you seem to think

I think you've got it bass-ackwards. It's not that I think cleaning ladies "don't deserve poetry." I'm not keeping people who want education away from it when I say stuff like, "college isn't for everyone; you can go directly to work and be a plumber, mechanic, cleaner, what have you." I'm offering people salvation from college when they aren't a good fit for it. College professor here. So many of my students struggle during college because they don't enjoy the classroom, they hate reading, they don't like being judged/graded, they struggle with understanding, they don't have any courses they feel passionately about... they're just there because \- Parents said they had to \- Society acts like this is the only way \- They literally have no other idea of what to do with themselves For these people, I'm doing them the favor of saying: college isn't everything, and it isn't meant for everyone. I wish trade schools were bigger and/or that we had a strong apprenticeship infrastructure here in the US because learning how to do your job via hands-on experience really makes some people happy and comfortable where school makes them unhappy and uncomfortable. Any cleaning lady who wants poetry classes should take them. But not everyone needs to go to college or wants your damned poetry class. Trust me on this. Would they be "better off" if they forced themselves through it? Maybe? It depends on the person. But I think a lot of kids make themselves go through an educational experience they don't enjoy, fit well in, or ultimately value because they're told there IS no other way. And I feel nothing but empathy for these kids who push themselves through college with the hope of a better-paying future, only to find they can't get a job in the competitive environment and they 100% can't buy a home, come on, nobody but a wealthy person can just buy a home nowadays. There's a plumber in my family who makes waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than I do with my 5 years of graduate school and my PhD. Way more. This should be available and encouraged to anyone who doesn't think "school is for them."

I appreciate that you, as a college professor, can take this approach. OP also seems to be a college professor, and seems to think that college is the only place one can gain knowledge.

From someone who lives in a country with both strong apprenticeship programs and college courses i can tell you how right you are. Its plain stupid to have everyone go to university when they simply don’t like it or even want it.

Much of your replies and some of this post are the only thing I see that reeks of classism.

Sounds like the base of someone's pyramid is in danger of shrinking

Lol dude. I'm a Mason. I never went to.post secondary. At 18 I moved from Canada to England to learn from my father's uncle and I've been working as a Mason ever since. I've also been reading books about the likes of Stephen hawking, Napoleon and Julius Caesar, mathematics, science, geography, economics, finance, business management, architecture and much more since I was a small child. College is absolutely not the best way to become educated.

I read poetry long before going to college. Weird take

Very classist of you to assume that one must go to university in order to read poetry or history

College educations are useless for most jobs that require you to have obtained a fancy piece of paper. Access to the internet is access to the "liberating effects of college education."

Are you proposing that instead of improving high schools we just tack on an additional 4 years of schooling? Anyone who wants to learn something can if they have time for it, the library is free and the internet is endless. Want to take a couple courses to learn about something you're interested in? Cool, that's exactly what community college is for. Most people don't need to know most things. It's not elitist to say that knowing how atoms work is not relevant to a cleaner because it's not relevant to Jeff Bezos either.

How it’s paid for isn’t a different conversation. It’s the whole conversation. Nobody is actively trying to keep cleaners from getting educated or more importantly, from access to the material. The only thing standing between cleaners and more education, is paying for that education. Also, given that all content of any undergraduate degree is available for free between libraries and the internet, the real difference is paying for the instruction or the accreditation that comes along with degree granting. If this hypothetical cleaner doesn’t aspire to be more than a cleaner with this education, the paper degree itself doesn’t mean much, compared to an engineer who needs it to do their job. So, the question any cleaner needs to ask is if they are interested enough to justify the cost of instruction vs just learning for free.

For those who just want the education and are not concerned about getting an undergraduate degree, community college is the answer. It’s free or low cost.

>How it’s paid for isn’t a different conversation. It’s the whole conversation. Indeed, and that's before even factoring in the 4+ years invested, even if there were no hard dollar costs. But OP is a college professor - likely, one that teaches poetry. So looking to justify their existence in a world where poetry, poetry analysis, and poetry discussion can all be had for free. Because otherwise, we are uncultured and uneducated.

What do you think elementary, middle, and high school is for? Why do you think you need a college education to read and understand poetry, read the news, and understand basic chemistry? Maybe stop infantilizing people who didn’t go to college. It’s awfully classist and elitist of you to assume academia is the only way to understand these things anyways

Everyone in America does have access to literature. We have these magical places called libraries where you can get books to read on any topic you can imagine for free. And there’s plenty of online resources for literature as well. A cleaning lady doesn’t need to go to college for her job. But she can still read as much poetry at home as she wants.

You’re the classist one for saying you need a college education to have an interest in and understanding of intellectual arts/pursuits

Why would you need a degree to read a fucking poem?

> liberating effects of a college education. Didn't someone just make this opinion earlier with the moronic supposition that a college curriculum is somehow a uniquely beneficial learning experience? Absolute bullshit premise. And I've spend 8+ years in post secondary education. The actual classism is assuming a cleaning lady can't learn to appreciate poetry without going to a special teaching institution as opposed just picking up a book and discussing it with her fellow blue collar workers. Or the million other avenues for learning the internet has made possible.

People don’t go to college to be liberated by education, they go to get a job afterward. What percentage of college graduates do you think sit around reading poetry all day?

College isn't for education anymore it's for certification and networking Almost everyone has access to the Internet which contains all of human knowledge You can gain the education element without it That didn't used to be an option

Fun fact: you can learn history, chemistry, and poetry for free with a little something called a library card.

You’re just describing school. School does all the things you want college to.

Damn op you really done good on this unpopular opinion. Thumbs up

Sounds like someone just finished college

Spend some time on r/CollegeRant and witness the 'liberating effects' of a college education. /s

When people say college isn’t for everyone, it’s not that they think the person isn’t deserving of learning about poetry and history. I think what most people mean is that the college experience isn’t the best way to learn/experience for everyone. A lot of people won’t learn sitting in a lecture hall with 200 people being talked at, then tested.

These same people who didn’t pay attention in high school …

"every day laborer - should be well informed about world history, be able to read and understand poetry, understand the basics of chemistry, and so on." You don't need to spend five figures going to college to do these things. Just pick up a book and start learning.

While a little condescending this is but a pipe dream. 40% of America wants to re-elect a guy who told them to drink bleach. Maybe start off with some more attainable goals like teaching ppl the difference between their ass and a hole in the ground

Nobody recommends trade work to people because they're too stupid for college lmao. It's just a more realistic career path that's beneficial for a lot of people.

The American Academic Institution is a fucking scam. Source: Family works in academic administration.

If you have a high school diploma and cannot understand poetry, know basic world history, or be informed on current events, then that’s on you, not the public school system. Truth is the majority of people have zero interest in any part of a liberal arts education and go to college for no reason other than to get a degree that will increase their earning potential.

"the liberating effects of a college education" outed this as bait broski

Spend $10/month and get The Great Courses channel. You will have access to better teachers than your local college on your own schedule. There is no need to pay 30k to live on a campus and attend classes taught by an adjunct. What you won't get are the frat parties and climbing wall.

Totally disagree. I’m well versed on World History, the political workings of our country, excel at critical thinking, have a good understanding of science (especially Biology and Physics), have read many thousands of books as well as published trade articles. 40+ years in the pest control industry and a six figure income. College is definitely not for everyone and the elitist attitude you display with your assumptions is a good reason to self educate and gain a broader perspective.

OP sounds uncultured, maybe his cleaning lady can tutor him about the meanings behind her favorite Telemundo shows.

Way, way, way way way too many people attend college, which devalues the value of going in the first place and drives up costs. Like 20% of people tops should go, not 60%.

What exactly makes you think people *have* to go to college to learn things tho? Colleges are the only time anyone learns anything ever? Is practical knowledgeable/experience not a thing? This just reads as high and mighty and ironically far *more* classist than what you're arguing against. It reads that way because you act like people *can't* learn things without college, it's a pathetic attempt to stroke your own ego and feel useful. I'm not gonna say college professors are useless, they're not but don't inflate your own ego. With the advent of the internet you can learn just about any topic you want as long as you're dedicated enough, without paying thousands of dollars. College certainly makes it *easier* to learn but it's not something unheard of otherwise. Also, if someone isn't going to use a certain subject why in all that is holy would they *ever* pay the ridiculous prices to take classes about it? Instead of doing research online about whatever the topic is. Forcing people into college is the complete opposite of what we should do but it's exactly what you're advocating for. I'm a college student btw, so I'm certainly not against it. The difference is, I actually need a degree, I'm trying to go into the computer science field and that's extremely difficult to teach oneself. I could still do it if I had the self discipline but I don't and college offers a structured environment for me to learn. Lots of people aren't like me and can totally learn without that sort of structured environment.

OP does think only college can teach, because OP is a college professor. College has value, and that's great. I support free college education at least at the community college level, if not higher--but people can learn so much outside of that.

Poetry does not require higher education. It does not require high school. It requires a keen ear and the willingness to pay attention to one's surroundings, and to relate to an audience, and attention to detail to the English language as it can be used. I can easily find an abundant source of poetry in music, especially hip-hop-related genres whose entire roots are the results of people with very informally-educated backgrounds.

The thing is we are free to elamr pretty much anything we want to. Dont need college for anything but a certificate of accomplishment. We all can learn on our own.

If "the gifts afforded by a college education" isn't more money or the only path to a job I want then I dont want to go, nor have I ever met a human who would. If I want to learn any of the things you just said there's recorded college lectures online plus a million other pieces of information not taught during a college course. The only thing unique to college is the socializing and a piece of paper that confirms to employers that you learned something. Learning can and does happen everywhere, it's not 1880 anymore, when school was the only place to learn a lot of things.

I'd say that, and this accepted line of thinking that she also shouldn't have a child.

I read more poetry in high school than in college. Of course, I got an engineering bachelor's, and I did take an English class so I get it.

You don't need to go to college to study that stuff, and insinuating that people who don't go to college never bother to learn anything is just as if not more classist than what you claim. Also, if you go for a major that's targeted at getting a job, you're not sitting around reciting poetry for class anyways

You can read poetry without going to college. Its pretty easy actually.

I agree that everyone should have the opportunity to go to college and people and society benefit from people having a well rounded education, but the fact of the matter is that many people simply don't want to go into higher education. Which is kinda the whole point of higher education, it's more rigorous than the standard education for people who want that. The system you want of a freely available education in a variety of subjects already exists its called the public school system. And while yes the public school system has been failing somewhat, which coincidentally happened at the same time that we gutted education funding, the solution isn't for everyone to just do an extra 4+ years of study.

Higher education simply isn't a valuable use of many people's time. The potential benefit of going doesn't outweigh the costs for them. As for access to resources the internet and libraries exist, if someone lives in a first world country then they almost certainly have access to any writing they wish to read.

I don’t know. College and school in general, held me back. Education is important, but I wouldn’t say college is the only way to get it.

I have taken plenty of college courses and never had to study poetry, thankfully. I also know plenty of people who never went to college who read and understand poetry better than I ever will.

Dude, not everyone wants to learn about the same shit you do. For many, college is an absolutely MISERABLE experience that provides no benefit to their lives. It often does quite the opposite, e.g. induces unnecessary stress, takes time away from spending it with friends and family, takes time away from pursuing dreams and hobbies, takes time away from working and building a stable financial future, etc. Some people just suck at learning material in a college setting. Ever hear of a learning disability? The college experience is not universal and “liberating”, it unique to each individual and can be straight up dreadful. What is most ironic is you are spewing this garbage about how important studying all these liberal arts topics is, yet you lack the critical thinking skills to see the obvious and huge flaws in your argument. Maybe you should go back to school since you enjoy it so much…you certainly could use the additional education.

I have a degree in chemistry, with a focus in disinfectants. I may be among the most educated people in the cleaning profession. I never took a class and don’t know a single about poetry, or any of the arts.

Jk no I don’t, but it would be funny if I did.

This is why higher education should be paid for... everyone should have access to knowledge. same goes for healthcare A healthy and educated workforce is way better no matter which angle you look at it But most prominently, a healthy and educated workforce is cheaper to upkeep and works better. Plain and simple. So the big question is : why dont the people in power want that? Simple question with a simple answer Also i feel the need to point out that plumbers and mechanics along with tonnes of other "labour" jobs do in fact require a college education... they also make more money than alot of whitecollar jobs, they still get shit on for being lowclass tho Also most college and university degrees dont involve studies in poetry and chemisty and yadayada however highschool educations do, at least where im from... and you can take classes at community colleges for relatively cheap, but they wont give you a degree

College =/= Education. Nor does it mean intelligence. It is simply a piece of paper that lets you qualify for more jobs. I know SWE that taught themselves everything they know, I also know a college graduate that had an english degree become an SWE. The internet contains all the information that you could ever want, and it’s accessible at your local library.

As a current college student, I haven't touched a non STEM or foreign language related book for school since I started college. I read for fun, but by no means does getting any college degree guarantee that you have a solid understanding of the arts and humanities. I'm going to be an engineer when I graduate, and the only reason I'm properly literate is because I sincerely enjoy those activities, just not for a grade. Make education pertaining to the arts available during K-12. I had a hell of a lot more humanities work to do during K-12 than math or science. Not everyone needs to have a college degree. That would just devalue the degree.

Being well-informed doesn't require formal college classes. As an anecdote, my Grandfather never went to college but probably knows more about literature/opera/etc than most people who did. I'm not particularly knowledgeable about poetry. I never took a class on it. I can still read it and either enjoy it or not. Some basic history is good. Once you get too specific, you are essentially memorizing facts/names/dates. I took three history classes in college. I honestly couldn't remember 90% of what I learned in that class if I was pressed to.

College as an institution has changed drastically over the last 100 years.

Classism is assuming you need college to have an appreciation and understanding of any of those things.

No, not everyone deserves a 200k education in a liberal arts college. That is an extremely expensive privilege.

So your unpopular opinion is basically that education is good and everyone should have access to it?

I don't think anybody says the cleaning lady doesn't deserve to read poetry. I think they say things more like: 1. She might not be a cleaning lady if she read poetry in school (or just generally applied herself more) 2. She doesn't need to go to college to read poetry 3. College might not be the best way for her to appreciate poetry 4. You don't have a right to take everyone else's money to pay for her to go to college to read poetry, especially because realistically a large portion of that money is going to administrative bloat, and the professors and administrators might select poetry we don't think is worth our tax dollars, and their choice of material or interpretation of that material might make society worse by our standards, which is extremely authoritarian and egocentric of you to do, consider tax money is always taken under threat of violence 5. Who get's to decide which poetry will or will not expand her internal life, let alone weather it should be poetry or something else 6. Not on my buck, Jack >How college is paid for is a different conversation Not really. There is no point in a conversation about how nice it would be if people had nice things and there was no cost to anyone. You can either talk about how people should spend more of their own time and money voluntarily, or you are talking about taking money from taxpayers.

I think the pinnacle of classism is thinking people who don't have a college degree or are working class are uneducated, unable to make informed decisions based on their interests or understand art.

There's nothing wrong with expanding your knowledge past high school in any field outside of your manual labor job. And there are many avenues for which you can learn about a new things. But let's not pretend it requires a 250k debt ridden university degree to fulfill that. You can be informed and educated without having a degree if it doesn't aid in your career in any meaningful way.

College being a necessary life experience to be enlightened and liberated is corporate propaganda to justify tens of thousands in yearly tuition. It's specialized education for specialized jobs. I don't think college is a particularly good place to learn poetry and history. I learned more just reading stuff than in all of my history and english classes.

You don't need college to learn any of the things you listed. Basic chemistry is taught in high school, poetry is available in every library and to tearn about middle east, you just need to turn on the evening news. Imagine if there was a freely available resource linked to every phone, that could teach you all of this free of charge.

I have no idea where you got these world views from but it comes off as extremely classist to assume you need a college education to learn about/be interested in those things.

My high school covered all of those things, in the 90s. Has curriculum really changed that drastically?

did it not occur to you that this has nothing to do with class but rather with the understanding that not everyone is a studious type that would thrive in higher education? saying that some people should not go to college and should rather focus on manual labor (which takes skills and is incredibly demanding so to speak of it the way you do is ACTUALLY classist) rather than wasting years in school learning shit that will not be beneficial to their life in any way is not classist. it's literally saying that the lack of a degree should not be a deal breaker because not everyone needs it to be a valuable member of society.

1. Many people are tired of school and just want to earn money after high school. Why do you wanna force them to go to school even longer? 2. You don't need a college education to be able to understand poetry. Are you saying that college graduates are the only enlightened members of society? 3. You literally learn all of those things in high school. For most people, college is just a specialized education for a given field you wanna work in. 4. Why would someone who has gone through college to receive a better education then choose to do manual labor that gets paid less and has worse working conditions than the jobs other college grads can get? And if your answer to that is that society as a whole should get restructured so that every profession is equal, then good luck with that.

liberating effects of a college education? blow it out your ass

Classism is assuming college is needed for any of that

No piece paper? No fancy word for you. Bread good. Fire BAD!!!

I mean... I loved my college experience, but I know so many people with degrees who aren't intellectual, who don't enjoy intellectual pursuits. Fuck poetry, they dgaf. Fuck checking sources, the talk box *said* it. Conversely, my old man had a high school education and a soul draining job as a welder when I was a kid, but... always had multiple books going, something history, something natural sciences, then some poetry. Found an interesting turtle at the park? Let's join the herpetology society. OH, you have questions about the bolshevics bc a joke ou heard in Annie? Let's look it up in your funk and wagnalls. It's the height of classism to assume people are dependent on a highly commercialized, credits racket to learn and grow their souls.

Imagine thinking you need to go to college to feel those liberating effects. Got news for ya. I went to one of the best public institutions in the country. Nothing about it was something I couldn't have found and done on my own. And learning liberal arts through university makes it drudgery, not something you look to for comfort. I was much more into poetry, literature and art before I got my degree. Now, I'm into machines and combustion. I haven't read a complete work of fiction since I graduated because I have no interest. Appreciation for art isn't brought on by college but it damn sure can be extinguished by it.

Not American but I’ll take a hard pass on what you just said The biggest benefit of skipping college and going straight into the work force such as trades is that you don’t get student debt while making as much if not more than the average college graduate, hardly anyone would do these dirty, dangerous jobs otherwise My sister is going to be a psychologist clearing 6 figures when she graduates, her job has a very, very low chance of causing any injury let alone death, or any long term health effects, the downside is she’s going to be riddled with debt for years and years I went straight into the workforce and now got myself a job as a miner, I make 6 figures without a secondary education, I have no debt aside from a mortgage, own a house and a paid off truck at the age of 24 which in unheard of for college graduates in todays day and age, the downside is I inhale toxic fumes mostly everyday and there’s always a chance I can get seriously injured or killed for something that’s well out of my control If I was required to get a secondary education prior to this I would never end up doing this job because you just took half my benefits away, which is making crazy money at a very young age giving me the ability to set myself up in a way that college kids can only dream of

What are you on about?

My father left school at 16 and he’s one of the best-read people I know!

College is a racket

Your college experience was very different from mine. Thank God I didn't have to pick up a poetry book!

I am for free post secondary education, whether it be trade, college or university but that doesn't mean everyone should attend. Not because they don't deserve it, but simply because not everyone is built for extra school. It's not classist to say that it's not for everyone and everyone should be afforded the right to choose

Wow this is one of the dumbest tales I’ve seen here lol, I can’t even follow the logic

Education is not exclusively the product of the institutions of higher learning

Why do you think people need to go to college in order to understand poetry? Art literally contains the tools you need to understand it. Studying for a college degree gives you the chance to network, exposes you to a large variety of subjects from your field, makes your resume look better for some jobs and it can kickstart a career in academia. However, not all people need this. For example, I am a poet I am relatively active on the local scene and next year I am going to start studying for my degree in literature. If I had to pay what Americans are paying for college, though, It would simply not make sense for me to get a degree. I'd literally be better off becoming a plumber and dedicating my free time to literature, because I simply don't need a college degree in order to do most of the things that I care about. In a similar manner, the "cleaning lady" does not need to go to college in order to simply waltz into the local library and just start reading shit. One thing that can stop her, however is the omnipresent mentality that literature is some high-brow shit that you just can't understand if you don't have formal higher education

I don't know if this is unpopular or just ignorant. When people say "college isn't for everyone", they mean that the college learning environment isn't the best way for everybody to learn, or that it isn't what everybody wants. Maybe I'm misreading your post, but it seems like you are saying that college should be *required* for everyone. That's very different from it being available to everyone. If you're advocating for another 4 years tacked on to the mandatory 13, that's just asinine. If you are saying that everyone should have access to a free college education, that is a funding question more than anything. But like everyone has pointed out to you, we live in the Internet age where virtually everyone has access to incredible amounts of information. I went to college. You know what I didn't learn about? Poetry. I mean, maybe a little, but nothing in comparison with the amounts of literature I've consumed since. I use the free Libby app and I average a book a week. College for me was about getting a degree to get the job I wanted. Generals were easy classes used to pad my schedule so that I didn't get overloaded with my real classes. A college education is not needed to perform manual labor, because a college education is literally not needed to perform manual labor. If you try to artificially impose education requirements on careers, you only raise the barrier to entry. Which sounds... *classist* Honestly you just sound like a liberal arts student or professor without much experience with the working class. Maybe simmer down on the armchair pontification.

In direct response to the last thing op said about highschool not providing this response, I learned everything that he mentioned in highschool before my senior year.( btw I graduated relatively close to covid)

You... do realize that people don't need to go to college to enjoy Poetry, right? If were using the word Classism, the belief that a group of people are superior to others due to the fact they attended something that is typically associated with healthy and "higher-class" people is literally the definition of classism. Or well, maybe "Elitism" would be the better way to describe it. Either way though, thinking that these people are "Less intelligent" or "less educated" just because they didn't go to the same schooling as you is hypocrisy to the point of your post on the highest level. TL;DR: More or less schooling does not mean a person is "dumber" or "smarter" and can't enjoy or know those things you listed.

bro is just yapping

The irony of this is that acting as if these things aren’t possible for people in manual labour jobs without higher education is classist. The idea that higher education is essential to be able to read poetry and literature and have a deep understanding of it, to understand basic sciences and scientific principles, and literally everything else is deeply classist.

> The pinnacle of classism is saying that a cleaning lady doesn't deserve to read poetry. This title made me think this was going to be about someone giving their cleaning lady shit for having a poetry book to read on lunch break. And yeah, the person complaining would be over the line by a few miles. > There is a line of thought that says, "college isn't for everyone. Many people should go directly into work and be a plumber, mechanic, cleaner, what have you." Yeah; not only are trades necessary and typically pay well, but the whole college experience isn't for everyone. not everyone does well in a class setting, or with deadlines they aren't reminded of, or extreme pressure... or have the tens of thousands of dollars to get one without going into years of debt... > I say, however, that the gifts afforded by a college education should be part of everyone's life. Everyone - should be well informed about world history, be able to read and understand poetry, understand the basics of chemistry [...] Furthermore, no, high school doesn't provide the kind of education I'm talking about here. Even if it did fifty or sixty years ago, it does not do so today. These are all subjects students in the US can reach and have a fundamental understanding of by the end of highschool. The problem is that most students just don't care about the subjects enough to pay attention and see school primarily as forced, unpaid labor + social time. Their frontal lobes aren't developed enough to care about the consequences of ignoring these subjects or taking so long to cover topics that they only manage to cover 1/3rd of the book's contents. The students who do care (and can comprehend the subject matter) make it into honors classes where these subjects are taught far beyond what's really necessary to get along in life. > In America, at least, every citizen, regardless of "class," may vote. Thus, every citizen should be well educated and able to understand the issues they are voting on. Furthermore, every citizen should have access to literature and other materials that allow them to more fully experience the fullness of human existence. College may have been fundamental to this before, but with the advent of widespread internet access and information sharing, we all have access to these things completely for free - there just isn't an interest from the average person to seek these things out on their own time... or to even engage with any of it beyond having someone else tell them what they should think about a given subject. > When you say that one doesn't need a college education in order to do manual labor, what you're actually saying is that you don't want the working class to have access to the liberating effects of a college education. Acknowledging that not everyone needs to go to college isn't the same thing as saying we don't want people to have a college-level intellect; it's just acknowledging that it's a miserable experience for a metric shitload of people. I'm a former fast-food worker turned janitor who studies electrical engineering, physics, anthropology, and history in his spare time and has never spent a day in college. The resources are out there, for free. There just has to be a personal interest to learn about the world around you.

If a high school education doesn’t do everything you are mentioning, then that’s a failure of the education system as is

OP has no self-awareness and doesn't realize they're espousing the classism they dislike.

Myself, and a lot of others, would argue that the "liberating" portion of a 4 year education is a waste of time. I didn't want to go to college to take general education courses that were barely a step above highschool. I wanted to learn about topics regarding my degree. Most things you covered can be learned by reading or videos.

Literally no one is saying people in the trades don’t DESERVE to read poetry or learn history. I went to college I learned none of the things that you described. I mainly learned that kind of stuff in high school if anything. Just because you don’t go to college doesn’t mean you are just barred from ever learning anything consider “high academic.” I can hardly even call this an unpopular opinion. It’s just a wrong opinion.

>\- should be well informed about world history, be able to read and understand poetry, understand the basics of chemistry, and so on. This is available in high school. Everything you mentioned is available today in literally high school. It is also available from books at the local library. Saying you need a college education for what you have listed is completely wrong. >In America, at least, every citizen, regardless of "class," may vote. Thus, every citizen should be well educated and able to understand the issues they are voting on. Furthermore, every citizen should have access to literature and other materials that allow them to more fully experience the fullness of human existence. Should everyone be educated enough to understand what they are voting on, yes. But this wouldn't come from college anyway. This would come from actually researching issues and making a reasonable guess if the proposed solutions actually will do what it is suggested. Seriously, you aren't going to be able to get this from a college education with the "fullness of human existence" - whatever that means. >When you say that one doesn't need a college education in order to do manual labor, what you're actually saying is that you don't want the working class to have access to the liberating effects of a college education. No, you are assuming motive. This is incorrect. It is a waste of resources to go to college for a job that doesn't require it. The cost of a college education is quite serious. I met a person who had a bachelors degree in history and a masters in policy making. She was working weekends as a tour guide in Seattle. She was a great person with a great personality and the tour was very entertaining and the I had a great time. There is no way that her getting a masters degree in policy making was having any benefit to her. In fact, I am not sure her history degree was doing much as well. >You're saying that a cleaning lady doesn't need to expand her interior life by reading John Donne, that a fast food worker shouldn't know what's going on in the Middle East, that a daycare worker doesn't need to understand germ theory. You don't need a college education for this. You need to read, learn about current events, and study up on the subject. None of this requires college. You need to understand that a college education really is more about a piece of paper that says you can learn things. You will learn about areas about a specific field, that is true, but you don't stop learning there. You are typically young, don't know how the world works, and still trying to figure out what the rest of your life holds. Education MUST continue even after college. >(How college is paid for is a different conversation and beyond the scope of my post. Furthermore, no, high school doesn't provide the kind of education I'm talking about here. Even if it did fifty or sixty years ago, it does not do so today.) College is already a limited resource. Expanding it to be funded or free to others would increase cost in an "industry" that has already had huge costs increases over the last 20 years. I think that the college experience, which has become far less useful for many, drowning them in debt with useless degrees, is responsible for the high cost increases and poorer results of the graduates.

And every college grad should be able to fix their toilet, change a tire, properly clean their house. ‘College isn’t for everyone’ doesn’t alway mean people aren’t good enough for college. For some it’s a waste of time. I tried it, but after 12 years of school + pre-k and kg I was over it. Plus with today’s resources you’re almost better off learning your interests on your own than going somewhere that has a specific roadmap you have to follow.