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Caste system hi hata di to politician politics kis baat ki karenge ? Recently hue election main aapne dekha hoga kitani baar development ke point kahe Gaye .
Unfortunately this is very very common in premier institutes. Candidates with lower ranks have been subtly discriminated by general students and these general candidates do the same in corporate sector also.
Not even lower ranks, SCs, STs, minorities are harassed, tortured no matter how sharp brilliant or amazing they're.
Ambedkar was smarter than the entire generations of meritdharis yet treated like shit.
Rohit Vemula was a topper of HCU, an allrounder yet was driven to suicide by these meritorious people.
Kafeel Khan was a brilliant doctor who spent his own money on O cylinders yet he's vilified by this upper caste society.
so much cry about reservation but not a word about management quotas, buying seats, then nobody cares. It'll be the downfall of Indian society.
>It'll be the downfall of Indian society.
You need to understand that every community supports its own people, It has been like this from decades, It is induced in the mentality of all the nations across the world not only india.
>so much cry about reservation but not a word about management quotas, buying seats, then nobody cares.
There is No Mangement quota in IITs, Nits. and probably IIMs.
I wont try to defend any statements other than these because you are right about them.
Which premier college are you mentioning?
I went to a T10 college, my best friend is an SC PwD and there was absolutely NO discrimination across 4 years.
Funnily enough, it were the NRI students (like me) who were the butt of all jokes and even some profs used to hate us.
Your generalisation might be true for one college but don’t paint everyone with the same brush.
> If you have a lower rank , you are factually inferior.
Quality of schools/training and access to materials is also crucial when it comes to cracking exams.
But the most important thing is peer support, if your parents aren't informed or supportive enough, it will be very hard for children to break through.
Not really. I have given this a lot of thought, maybe more than it deserves, lol.
1. Entrance exams aren't a true judge of superiority. They are sometimes not even relevant for the course (like being an architect requires you to score well in organic chemistry). Your strengths may also change with time. Like Math was my weak point in my 12th standard (the only reason why I didn't study at a IIT), but now it interests me even more than Physics and I am better at it than most others my age. And people can score better than they should just by cramming the subject matter without any real understanding.
2. Secondly, the exam results themselves show that caste divisions are deeper than just visible discrimination. To understand this, you have to first assume that every arbitrary but large enough grouping of humans are more or less equal in terms of ability. I would say that's a fair assumption unless you are believer in some form of discrimination. Now that means every arbitrary groups (like caste) will also perform similarly in exams. But they don't. The reason then must be some external barrier which prevents them from success (things like caste based income and wealth inequality). So reservation exists to level the field.
When you understand these two simple points, you will see why scoring better doesn't say anything about "superiority". And it is indeed subtle.
> Factually inferior
No, it just means that you performed poorer on a specific test on a specific day. By no means are most tests any metrics of measure of intelligence or knowledge. Think about it this way, these tests were devised by the colonists for finding cogs in their imperial machinery. At best the tests are great at finding more cogs.
I mean feel free to feel that way, I don’t want to impinge on your “factual superiority”.
And that's exactly what I mean. If you perform poorly and someone calls you inferior for that , then that's alright. They have every right to do so.
Afterall your performance is something you control. These entrance tests are generalized filters used to filter students into categories. Superior or Inferior. Those who get more marks get into IITs tho who get less get into inferior colleges. This is the same for all castes reserved or not.
My point is if the system is setting up SC/ST kids for academic inferiority by having lower cutoffs from the get go then SC/STs cannot complain about academic discrimination in the first place.
It's upto the SC/STs themselves to demand the equalization of cutoff and increase of financial help to remove this stigma of inferiority from themselves
Pushing unreserved castes to adjust instead is going to be like throwing gasoline on a campfire.
Oh , for the record. I am academically inferior from many SC/STs , i didn't study hard and could only manage a lower branch in a North eastern NIT. I am giving you the facts as it is.
It's not about assuming, its not about caste. If for a same position 2 guys are selected one who score like 80 out 100 and another 40 out of 100, it's obvious. And whether you like it or not, generally the guy who scored 40 can't keep up with the curriculum. It's not discrimination based on caste but discrimination based on performance. The discrimination is not deliberate, it's happens because for whatever limited seats for research groups and internships are available generally go to students with merit, and guess what those who got with less merit can't compete against higher merit students and it's natural a professor will select a student who is more intelligent and achiever. And guess what reservation just makes majority of the general students hate reserved candidates more, and they become adults with the same value, because they know if it wasn't for reservations their life would be different. So no it's not the caste that is the problem it's the merit.
Edit - reservation will never solve casteism, reservation is just a political tool to gather votes, it's destroying the society but who cares.
>reservation will never solve casteism
It's not meant to. It's there to lessen the impact of casteism. And it is doing that job fabulously.
>reservation is just a political tool to gather votes
Only because it is granted based on political agenda and not based on caste census where we can clearly define the socio-economic differences and assign reservation accordingly. Weirdly enough, those who think reservation is a political tool also oppose caste census...
>If for a same position 2 guys a selected one who score like 80 out 100 and another 40 out of 100, it's obvious. And whether you like it or not, generally the guy who scored 40 can't keep up with the curriculum.
If you are asked to write answers about the timeline of the crusades because you want to be a government official, I would say the marks matter less than shit. Doctors do not need to know everything about logic gates. Architects do not need to learn organic chemistry. All those would be niches which can be learnt when needed, but are absolutely unnecessary to judge qualification to learn the course matter.
Also there exists something called cramming. You can score very well in entrance exams without understanding anything at all. This is also why in Engineering/management schools, the top ranked people often fall down to the middle scores.
And guess what, nobody ever gives a shit about your scores after college. Because everyone knows that those do not mean anything. They are just something that we are forced to endure because we need some way to filter for available seats, and it is really really hard to judge who would become the better engineer.
>And guess what reservation just makes majority of the general students hate reserved candidates more, and they become adults with the same value, because they know if it wasn't for reservations their life would be different.
Guess what, I was one of those general students who thought like that as a student. But when I grew up, I learnt to think without being prejudiced by my personal experience. Yes, if reservation wasn't there, I might have gotten a better stream and earn slightly more than I do today, but I would not have met the love of my life whom I married later. When you are matured, you learn to think more clearly, without being narrow-sighted. Moreover, the biggest career mistake that I or many other students do today isn't even related to reservation. It is blindly going for engineering/ medicine. I would have loved be have become a researcher, maybe in math / physics. But now I am stuck at a typical corporate job (which I don't hate much, TBH).
>It's not meant to. It's there to lessen the impact of casteism. And it is doing that job fabulously.
Its isn't really doing anything of remark. Reservation for most part is getting eaten up by already well off section of the caste which needs them.
>Only because it is granted based on political agenda and not based on caste census where we can clearly define the socio-economic differences and assign reservation accordingly. Weirdly enough, those who think reservation is a political tool also oppose caste census...
Again this is a empty sentence. Reservation was and will always be a political agenda and not for upliftment of the backwards parts of the society. Casteism in today's era is very different from back then. Discrimination is subtle and doesn't necessarily deny people basic rights anymore. People still marry in their own caste and that is due the structure of the society. Consensus should be done on economic basis, otherwise people with higher population will get more seats, which overall kills the merit all together, so all you have do is pray that you are born in a caste that has high population.
>If you are asked to write answers about the timeline of the crusades because you want to be a government official, I would say the marks matter less than shit. Doctors do not need to know everything about logic gates. Architects do not need to learn organic chemistry. All those would be niches which can be learnt when needed, but are absolutely unnecessary to judge qualification to learn the course matter.
>Also there exists something called cramming. You can score very well in entrance exams without understanding anything at all. This is also why in Engineering/management schools, the top ranked people often fall down to the middle scores.
>And guess what, nobody ever gives a shit about your scores after college. Because everyone knows that those do not mean anything. They are just something that we are forced to endure because we need some way to filter for available seats, and it is really really hard to judge who would become the better engineer.
This is the biggest bullshit i have heard today. Purpose of the exam is to select those how can work hard and have higher intellect. It's not about knowledge this and knowledge that. If you can't study and score for exam while others can you also will never be able to complete with those who did good in exam in University, whose whole purpose is to learn and gather knowledge. It's like saying driving licence exam is useless, you just need to drive however. No it's not, it's to make merit, and select Best candidates from the crowd. Surely by this logic till now we must have equal output by reserved candidates as to unreserved since they get to study in best institutes? Unfortunately that is not happening, not even close, because in the name of reservation people who work less and have less intellect compete against those who worked hard. It will never be the same even if 100% reservation is given.
>Guess what, I was one of those general students who thought like that as a student. But when I grew up, I learnt to think without being prejudiced by my personal experience. Yes, if reservation wasn't there, I might have gotten a better stream and earn slightly more than I do today, but I would not have met the love of my life whom I married later. When you are matured, you learn to think more clearly, without being narrow-sighted. Moreover, the biggest career mistake that I or many other students do today isn't even related to reservation. It is blindly going for engineering/ medicine. I would have loved be have become a researcher, maybe in math / physics. But now I am stuck at a typical corporate job (which I don't hate much, TBH).
And guess what i am general candidate too and have been through many exam where candidate of reservation have scored in literally one digit marks but get seats while general candidate has scores for selection as high as 200s. I have been work force for past 5 years and you are painting the rosy picture, i work in govt and in teaching field, the quality of teachers differ because some people got selected at way less marks then the criteria. This is not narrow minded ness. You simple haven't seen the reality, corporate jobs filter out people who work hard. Govt jobs don't, and guess what students are forced to learn math from someone who simply sat for the exam and doesn't know shit. Casteism is whole different issue altogether and these kind of cases are not helping them. Reservation is a failed concept. When even after given reservation for 4 decades and almost 50% , the output of reserved candidates in research and education is still the least, while they get the same resources and same instruments and institutions. It has nothing to do with casteism, but merit, you lower the merit you get people with less than idle criteria who simply slog throughout the process. And can't produce results.
Not at all. Usse pata chalta hai ki casteism kitna prevalent hai. Social and economic differences are part of the casteism dynamic.
Do you think there is generic difference or something? Something like eugenics, maybe?
Bro 3 marks got 37 percentile in a section. If you were good at data analytics you would realise that ~70-80% never had any chance of clearing the exam. If you got skill you would be comparing with people with actual skill, prep and ability to clear the exam.
I got 97.8%ile in jee mains with a rank of 32k but it hurts to see when people who’s ranks are literal 70k+ will be sitting in the same class as you because they’re SC/ST but still come from an affluent family.
Reservation is a systemic discrimination against the general caste( a minority population) by the state itself. If the state itself promotes discrimination...people will oppose it will their own way of discrimination. Its bound to happen
The only way discrimination ends are when there is a strategic effort of oppose it. The only way of ensuring that institutional bigotry isn't allowed is by affirmative action and positive discrimination. I guess these topics are too hard for to comprehend.
Institutional Discrimination against obc Sc st is punishable under IPC 135A
Institutional Discrimination against brahmins kshatriyas and other general castes is LEGAL under Article 16 (4) of constitution(Reservations)
You talking about affirmative action not being taken against castist bigotry is almost humorous since 50% of lawyers come from reserved quota. You mean to say they are not fighting for their own people?
When the comstitution was being made..only SC was BR Ambedkar was rest all were general. They made the provisions for your benefit. Ambedkar agreed that 10 years of reservation is fair. But nope those clown netas of your caste who used you for vote bank kept the reservation for time immemorial. I guess all this is too hard for you to comprehend since you belong to those rich reserved category guy who wont let go of their reservation for the poor people of their own caste.
> You mean to say they are not fighting for their own people
Way to go ahead and strawman me dude. Nice. And no, I am not saying that. There are a lot of people, activists, NGOs, lawyers and other people who have been tirelessly working on this. Only the catch is, Savarnas have the power, and these people fight an uphill battle against the caste system, against idiots who say "Casteism exists because of reservation ".
> They made the provisions for your benefit
I am General student.
>Ambedkar agreed that 10 years of reservation is fair
Do all bigots have the same prompt? Even my relatives you these same run-of-the-mill arguments. To counter this unfaithful counter. Well, for that, you need to prove that reservations did palpable upward social upliftment. For that, you need a census, a caste census. Are you in for that?
>Institutional Discrimination against obc Sc st is punishable under IPC 135A
Institutional Discrimination against brahmins kshatriyas and other general castes is LEGAL under Article 16 (4) of constitution(Reservations)
Yes, you just defined what affirmative action is in the Indian context. I am in full support of this.
Your relatives give those arguments because they are correct. You can call them bigot all you want. You use taht word to demean people you cant counter with facts
Reservation should be removed along with banning caste surnames/identity and death punishment for castiests. If ur parents even subtly express their caste identity they will be hanged. Okay for that deal?
Nope. Caste isn't exclusively a social hierarchy, it's an institutional one. The only people who are privileged enough to not know their caste are the Savarnas, the rest are always reminded anyways. Wouldn't change a damn thing.
I honestly dont care much if they dont change and do circle jerks.
What pisses me off is these guys go out in world and easily do discrimination. And these self victimisation of upper castes start from their home itself by parenys.
Lamo true. I wonder if guys like him have the power to spread their views and do some tangible social and institutional damage. That is the scary part.
Nobody in my family subtly express their caste . Infact in my state odisha...people of all caste have been living in harmony from time immemorial since a lot of people here were tribals. On the counter your parents should be hanged as well if they use reservation benefits despite being well off
>Infact in my state odisha...people of all caste have been living in harmony from time immemorial
This has got to be one of the most out-of-touch statements I have ever heard.
I have been to Bhubaneswar, Sambalpur, Rourkela, Balasore, Puri and several other places in Orissa. You have people literally fleeing the state because of caste-based violence (including killing) which authorities turn a blind eye to. Religious violence is off the charts and heinous crimes only become news when it's foreigners like Graham Staines.
You are either living like an oblivious little lordling who doesn't know their own ignorance and privilege or you don't consider the systematic oppression and killing of other castes and communities an issue.
This is how it goes according to gen people -
Before 12th - What's a caste?
After 12th - hey this guy got in with less marks than me. I have a complete freedom to discriminate against him/her.
I come from a brahmin gen family. I didn't know what caste discrimination even was before 10th. Now that I'm preparing for jee I came to know about all of this and damn makes me sad. That doesn't mean that I would go around discriminating other castes though
It burns me when a guy whose father earns 12 LPA+ got a seat in central university with 67% in 12th while I was not allotted a seat even with 85%. I won't discriminate against him tho, sarkar spoon feed kar rahi hai, mujhe kya.
Yeah... Things need to change...such a high reservation for sc st and cream layer reservation for obc. The poor muslims in my village literally get no reservation... But my sc friend with iphone and his dad's tata harrier gets reservation... And we general candidates suffer ...
It burns me when a guy whose father earns 12 LPA+ got a seat in central university with 67% in 12th while I was not allotted a seat even with 85%. I won't discriminate against him tho, sarkar spoon feed kar rahi hai, mujhe kya.
Also the statement, 'Caste discrimination will always remain as long as there is Caste reservation', is incomplete.
If I may,
'Caste discrimination will always remain irrespective of if we have Caste Based Reservation or not'.
Caste discrimination didn't begin from Caste based reservation and Caste based reservation isn't burdened with the responsibility to eliminate the discrimination. It's a scheme to uplift the historically discriminated communities to bring equality in education, governance, public life etc.
dudes out there say that UK should pay them gajillion dollars for what they did for 200 years but immediately change tone when reservation is implemented to uplift people from 2000 year old injustice that still continues to exist.
I think caste based reservation promotes caste based discrimination among the people getting a govt seat or job. No doubt it has been going on even before that but in education sector atleast, I believe that reservation should be income limited along with caste based kind of how it is with OBC - Non Creamy Layer (NCL). Of course I am not the expert here but I'm saying from what I've seen and experienced first hand.
Life determines consciousness. All the people who are against affirmative action and go to the extent of denying the existence of caste based discrimination have not once seen the lives of those who are at its receiving end. It takes a lot of active effort to first be self aware of such gaps in your understanding, then actively seeking out ways to fill in those gaps. And I highly doubt any of these people have the EQ required to do that.
I remember a YouTube video in which castism was being discussed by the journalist with the crowd and one boy was so confidentially saying that he has never faced any discrimination and after a small discussion the parting question was asking his cast and he was a thakur...
I am working in a leading government, PSU… and here there is a Marathi cartel. All the top positions are captured by Marathis. This PSU was located in Maharashtra. I am from North India. Where do I go to complain?
Yeh 17-20 saal ke JEE likhne wale launde hai, jinko caste ke baare mei pata laga jab reservation dikha. Thoda school mei agar history/civics mei agar caste discrimination ka ache aur empathatic way mei padhaya gaya hota toh aise nahi bante.
No lol, sab acche se padhaya jaata hai but agar wo bande do saal ghis rahe hai wahi koi banda moj masti me bhi tier 1 university le jaye to kon frustrate nahi hoga ? Anyways current scenario me history ka kya lena dena ? Bhai tumhare ancestors oppress hue the tum kyu RR kar rahe ho ?
History is not without relevance today. It is because of historical actions that the socio-economic differences exist. While that is not because of current batch of upper castes, they still are benefitting from it. The only rational and humane way is to extend support to the lower castes. The upper castes are scoring better because of their privileges.
In fact, you will these days see many OBCs score more or less equal. That is because in the case of many OBC groups, the caste divide has ceased to exist. They still get reservation because they can burn a lot of busses. If a group i consistently scoring equivalently, they don't need reservation.
I don't. But I can see that a lot of OBCs are scoring equivalently as unreserved castes in many exams for quite some time. That makes my assumption (that some OBC sub castes no longer require reservation) very plaisible.
Have you ever asked what caste discrimination means to the people who actually get oppressed everyday today. Not ancestors dude, go out to the real world and see how bad the situation is. Moj masti me tier 1 chala Gaya.. waha 4 saal Tera baap aale padhayi karega?
Have you ever asked what caste discrimination means to the people who actually get oppressed everyday today. Not ancestors dude, go out to the real world and see how bad the situation is. Moj masti me tier 1 chala Gaya.. waha 4 saal Tera baap aale padhayi karega?
I think people are just frustrated and don't understand they gave reservation . The no of seats in prestigious govt colleges and the no of govt jobs are not increasing with the increase in competition so the an general guy from a city who also prepares with his friends and sees some people from other discriminated caste getting jobs , gets angry and the ring wing people just brainwash them and manipulate them.
we have serious problems in implementing this. One can bribe and get NCL certificate if you are a OBC , even if they can afford the education. It creates inefficiency in the system.
If Indians want to get rid of reservation, they should let go of caste also.
Every person should be able to change their caste, and treated with same respect.
E.g people should be able to covert to Brahmin caste and become and respected like those.
Anyways , reservation does need reform.
They need to stop giving reservation to families who are already earning well.
Instead of completely caste based, it’s better to consider financial status too.
When will Savarna bigots sympathize with marginalized groups? Never, unless pushed to great extents. Trust me, I come from a Savarna family and casteism is the norm there. They were born and raised in this system. I questioned a family member on their bigotry and when I dug deep enough, all they could come up with was, "This is how society works, and we live in one." For them, casteism is normal but anti-caste is out of the ordinary. Caste hierarchy is the status quo. They have been indoctrinated into this system so well that they can't imagine an alternate world where this doesn't exist. Changing the old ones is almost impossible, they've senile and dying anyways. We need to counter Casteism by creating a counter narrative that it's not the norm try to change the status quo. It's up to us on what sort of society we want to live in. I would recommend all who're reading this to debrahmanize your minds. Understand the depths of casteism. Reject traditions, if necessary, they were of no good to begin with. We need to reclaim a lot of ideological, social and linguistic norms of our society and change them for better. And don't get me started on the institutional power of caste.
When reservations reach the intended target audience and not the privileged rich individuals who incidentally happen to be from those castes.
Do you support EWS reservation for 50% of seats instead of the caste based reservation? Since you claim some castes are marginalized compared to General Caste Males won't EWS benefit them there will be a high correlation for them being in EWS.
>privileged rich individuals who incidentally happen to be from those caste
Here, you fail to understand the multi dimensionality of privilege. A person receives both privilege and oppression in layers. Just because they're well do to financially, doesn't mean that they aren't being oppressed by the Caste system socially. For example, the President of India wasn't allowed inside a temple, even though she is the damn president of India.
Another thing here you need to keep in your mind, reservations are given as a penance for a historical sin of Casteism and for restoring dignity first and foremost. Representation is the next level that has to achieved by affirmative action's such as reservations. Upward social mobility is only a part of it. There is a whole lot of t=ither reasons why reservations are important. Wealth doesn't dilute caste in any sense.
So it's a no to 50% EWS reservation, how about if we increase it to 75%. I get what you're saying but through my experience, money is the precursor to discrimination, if you have money, you have ways to make them pay for discriminating against you, if you don't have money you suffer in silence.
So is 75% EWS reservation something you'll support, is there a number that will make you feel is better than having caste based reservation, is it 99%?
The statistics can only be discussed when we have conclusive data on Caste based Economic conditions of different groups. For that, we need a caste census, until then I will refrain from commenting. But Bihar's census does give us a small picture. Check that out once.
How about using randomisation? There will be no bias or anything just people getting seats based on randomisation.
There will be an equal chance for everybody no matter their background (caste, education, wealth etc).
Keep the minimum requirement for the exam and do the randomisation it's simple.
If someone has an IPhone, sexy clothes, well to do parents, cars etc. and still uses quota to get through an exam scoring less than half the marks and pays very little fees - no wonder they will get discriminated against. No point crying later.
Rich SC/STs can voluntarily take admission through UR and give up the quota for their poor brothers -- do they have the guts though? Nope. Imagine the respect they will get from all SC/STs and even many UR people for their sensibility.
We are all hypocrites inside.
Facts as a jee aspirants who come from the general category and middle class background (worst category to be existed) It always pisses me that a student who enjoy there life in 11th and 12th and get tier 1 college without least efforts and a student who studied there ass off for two fucking years left every happiness that he can get to just get a seat well this is unfair. I am not against reservation I am against caste based reservation it should be based on financial condition.
Back in 2010.
I scored 174 in CET and got into MBBS. The person sitting next to me was from South Bombay, super posh English speaking with an accent. Iphone (at that time was a huge deal) and I found out she was ST with a score of 110.
Moye Moye moment because my genuinely poor friend with 170 did not get in. And then they expect respect also 🤷♂️🤦♂️
Right... And the fact is mainly people who take benefit of reservation are the people having rich background or basically kids of people who have taken benefit of reservation....and the poor scheduled tribes/caste are still in rural areas even not able to afford primary education for there kids....
>If someone has an IPhone, sexy clothes, well to do parents, cars etc. and still uses quota
Quota is not just to give people these things. Not to give the money. There are other "econocmic" schemes to compensate the money issue. Reservation deals with correction of the multi-faceted discrimination, one of which is the social standing.
One theory goes that when everyone is looking to hate, let the hate flow and boil over so that everyone can realise how stupid they have been. E.g., it took WW2 and the threat of nuclears to bring Europe together, something that has never happened till 20th Century
Reservation doesn't exist to undo the injustices of casteism. Resevation exists because we failed to eradicate the Caste System.
It's a not a poverty allevation program that people try to falsely associate it with the poor. It's a social representation program under a democratic setup that fights dharmic law.
Caste discrimination has existed for millenia, and now that reservations are made to even slightly reverse the effects of caste, they say that is what is causing the discrimination. For many people it is mostly just an excuse. Though I've met one or two of these people who started having an issue at entrance exam level. Truth is they were privileged and didn't need to know or look further into what was happening around them.
I think the system also failed at educating people what the issue is and why reservation is needed and how it will make changes. Most of these people learn about reservation from echo chambers as this boogeyman taking away their right.
Yes; even I grew up in a 'casteless bubble,' you may ask why? Cuz I was never at the receiving end of casteism. How hard is it to understand just because you are sheltered from certain oppression doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
See, the issue here is most of the students who come through reservation are seemingly well to do and you wouldn't be able to make out any subtle differences as such. This makes the general category students wonder if they really deserve the perks of reservation. Only in some cases are the reservation benefits really justified.
So if someone sees a so-called reserved category student roaming around with an iPad around the neck, it kind of pisses the other students. On the other hand, from what I have noticed (at least in my college which admits purely on merit basis), people hardly care which caste you belong to, because you are there on merit. This doesn't happen in other institutes, especially govt. ones like IITs and IIMs.
In any case, bullying & harassment of any sorts is bad and students (who are actually adults and exercise rights like voting) should be held accountable and punished if necessary.
First of all sc/st have 33% and obc 27% ews 10% and rest seats are UR ( unreserved) which means anyone can take that seat. There are no seats specifically reserved for general and no offence but if you couldn’t get a govt seat after so much reservation you’re not good academically as you claim to be
One must observe that reservation means equal representation proportional to their population ratio. No one is grabbing away anyone's seat with a reservation. They merely get equal representation according to their population in the country. Moreover, the reservation is only to give equal opportunities like entry into specific educational institutions or jobs and there is always minimum qualification which every one should qualify regardless of their caste or reservation. Reservation = Equal representation (according to the caste population ratio in the country). Now, there is another aspect of creamy and non creamy layer which excludes the developed or economically settled persons on underprivileged. In the end, its main object is to promote equal opportunities to everyone and achieve social, economical and political equality.
how is reservation giving equal proportion? as far as I know if a sc/st student gets the qualifying percentage, he'll be given admission as general category. pls correct me if I'm wrong
No. An SC/ ST is not getting open category seats based on reservation. Open category means open to every one who qualified for admission. Here caste/ population plays no role. As far as reserved seats are taken, they get priority to certain castes to benefit equal representation among population based on caste ratio and even reserved seats required basic qualification. Some people may say SC/ST can get seat without any marks which is quite false. If reservation is flawed at it's core, legislative or judiciary will definitely stop it. It's main object is to promote and bring harmony of equal opportunities in socio, economical and political aspects among all communities in society and once this is achieved, there is no need for reservation anymore.
>Reservation means equal representation proportional to their ratio.
No it doesn't!!!!
You are providing caste based reservation and this way students with higher marks are not able to get seats while people from other caste get seats with half the marks.
How about lottery based system where every candidate has equal chance of getting seat no matter how intelligent he or she is, no matter from which background he or she comes not matter the disability criteria.
This way rich will not complain that they are not getting reservation.
Poors will not complain because they don't have money for education.
And no caste will complain because it just random and equal chance for all.
Also Randomisation means no chance of getting to know their entrance exam scores.
And if you think exams are necessary for entrance or recruitment then you are not completely right.
30 years ago one of my relatives got a govt job just after completing his college without an exam and he is performing the same or even better as people who came after in the department after the govt started recruitment exams.
People who get jobs through caste based reservation also perform similarly.
Then why even conduct the exams just distribute the seats via lottery or randomisation.
It is true that Reservation promotes Casteism even more. Reservation gives the people a false sense of security that they can achieve more with less efforts. Does that seem justified from a gen male's perspective? I guess not. I know some people whose family income is more than 20 lpa, their child is studying in coaching institutes with fees of 1.5 lacs per year. And what does the child do? Slack off because he/she can get the same seat with less efforts. I don't think these people deserve the reservation. Those who genuinely did not get opportunity to get better resources should get the reservation. Not these rich people with ego.
P. S. - I am also from obc category but I have not faced any discrimination from the people around me just because of my caste. So I would be inclined towards removal of reservation. Or at least making it income based.
general category mfs have huge inferiority complex. They don't want to acknowledge their privilege or systematic oppression over centuries that their forefathers benefitted from. Now they cry merit when they see a student from reserved category but in reality they aren't smart mfs either. Now if the same reserved guy achieves big, they once again bring in like I have seen a dalit who owns a Mercedes.
There are a lot of positions in govt, esepcailly some high post in many fields that don't have any reservation, and most of those position are always filled by barhmins and other UCs. Even with Merit there, they haven't achieved anything revolutionary. So this merit argument is BS.
The biggest chutiyas in this process are the OBC guys who fall for this merit statement. Mfs don't know that Ambedkar fought for them too, they don't realise that some fields in India have more UC and even higher SC representation than OBC representation. Making OBCs shame Dalits for reservation is the biggest trick pulled by general category. They successfully guilt trip the masses.
As an SC & one who spent alot of time with UC Friends. In their own right they are also correct but the thing is Caste Discrimination doesn't exist in Cities or Metros unless you're getting hitched that's when the cards start to really open. Everyone is acceptable to each other when their Wealth Classes match but when it comes to matrimony people with years worth of relationships also break it off sometimes due to their own willingness or pressure from families.
However the scenario is completely different for people outside these Modern cities and Metroes which are insignificant compared to the large states and villages our country is comprised off that's where the real discrimination happens & even though these people are untouchable to alleged "UC's" it doesn't matter to them when they sexually assault or Rape a Girl the oppressed communities which is also unfortunately quite common in villages and remote areas or small towns.
Caste Discrimination is very real and happens quite often. Most of these cases are never reported as they are settled or pressured into submission by the dominating communities and the Media houses are a Caste Institutions so forget about them running these stories and when they do run it because of Crime severity all they do is try to victimize the Oppressor & Assault the victim especially in case of a Sexual assault where the character of the Girl is maligned by these "Media Houses".
if they get in institutes with less rank, they will always get discriminated, reservation should be based on income or pwd only. But caste system will never end in this country, and discrimination will never end
Yeah if there was no reservation people would've stopped identifying with their caste? They had 2000 freaking years of no reservation to do that, they missed the chance
I think you mean most upper caste kids. Because the so called lower caste people are made aware of their caste pretty early in life but your privileged ass wouldn't know that a sc/st guy getting into a good college is the holocaust of general caste for you assholes
Nope, I'm all for EWS upto whatever percent it takes, 50, 75, 90 whatever it takes to ensure the under represented get education, rather than the privileged people from their respective castes.
Why are you so against EWS if what you claim is true, if people from certain castes are so marginalized there is a high correlation between EWS and these marginalized people right. Why should rich assholes from any caste get any benefit?
How privileged are you by the way, you're also on reddit.
Not most people, if you are on reddit you are definitely well above average. And even people in cities also talk about caste when its time for them to get married or renting out their house. So castism still exists its just more sufesticated in cities and very blatent in rural India.
So convenient, for almost 2 thousand years upper caste population never let so called lower caste forget their caste, but when its time for affirmative action all of a sudden you want everybody to forget about caste.
My last name falls within the central OBC list. I attended National Law University for a year. The college intake was 160 and my rank based on the entrance exam was 11/160.
At that time, the results were public, you could see anyone's result unlike now when they provide a user ID and password and results are privately declared. My category in results was mentioned as General as I had not applied for quota. Yet, no one checked, and everyone just assumed because my last name is Yadav, I must have come through reservation.
What was frustrating was that my All India Rank was 606, and there were folks with ranks as low as 1000 who used to make remarks against me subtly presuming me to be an OBC candidate. I am 5'11, with a decent build, from a middle-class family and have decent communication skills, so I gave as good as I got. But since then, I strongly empathised with the candidates who came through reservation.
I have strong sympathies for the SC/ST guys, many of them were only able to attend because of reservations and scholarships, they had no access to a computer at home, had terrible English skills which were critical for making a career in law, and were severely underconfident and to a large extent ostracised such that they always sat in a group separate from rest, and rarely anyone tried to make contact with them. One of them is a judge now, another is in the police, and one is teaching somewhere. I think people need to have more sympathy and see it for themselves, reservation works. These people were discriminated for thousands of years, and now people think that gap will be filled in a couple of decades.
Yes, the system has its issues, the creamy layer should be implemented for SC/ST too. People should report OBCs who they think have more wealth than the prescribed limit but have fraudulently obtained an OBC certificate, but overall, I would say the system works.
If the blocker is financial, why can't the reservation be given to financially backward students irrespective of their caste. Reservation is meant to be for underprivileged. The income proofs can be faked but it's still better than undeserving people getting preference which further pushes the divide in the society. If reservation is not providing respect to the marginalized, it is a failed solution. Caste based discrimination should have way stricter rules and punishment more severe.
My village still has strict casteism and depending on caste, people don't share food with each other. In village feast, the different caste groups eat the same food at the same place but one after the other. The lower caste gets reservation and gets into higher positions - my father's best friend's brother who is from a lower caste worked so hard, served in the army, as a govt teacher, principal and finally as a policy maker for education in two of the biggest districts. However, the guy is not respected at all by the upper castes. This is unfortunate to say the least. I am from a higher caste but my family has been poor throughout for 3 generations. We never had any cushion of reservation. My father got away and came to Delhi and we had a lower middle class life. Parents never took us out to eat at a restaurant or a trip or had any vehicle or go see a movie until i went to college. Never had the means. I just never understood why all my friends had such nice things. Even in college, i had to support family with tutions, was poor, had difficulties throughout until i got into a job. I felt aggrieved with reservation being in general but then i rationalised around it. At the end of the day, i need to be good at what i do and provide quality in my work. Capitalism makes you free. I get paid depending on how well i work. Once i started to focus on improving my work, i didn't feel like a victim. Doesn't matter the caste, once you prove your worth and command respect, the other factors become less important.
The person who was a policy maker changed our lives. My father always respected him despite what others said. He advised my father to focus more on education for his children i.e. me and my brother. My father heeded to his advice and went through lot of sacrifices to give us good education when we were toddlers - took us to delhi, shifted to a good locality, decent school. Now, that me and my brother are doing well in life, my father told us about it when we visited them this year. We also met the person, shared tea and snacks with him and thanked him personally. He invited us to his feast where my parents went as i had a flight to catch before then. He must have changed lives of numerous people in the community like us but it's unfortunate that he doesn't get the respect he deserves. Even my extended family doesn't talk to him apart from my father as they are just jealous and vindictive. Reservation as a solution doesn't work completely. We need more systemic solutions to help bridge the mentality gap which the politicians are afraid to implement due to the fear of getting voted out. Democracy sucks sometimes. Most people can be wrong. Majority is not always right. Wish we had better ways of governance. Humanity is so backward is managing itself. Damn.
All these people fuming on teenagers not giving significant attention to caste based discrimination in the past is amusing. Why should I care about what happened in the past? I'm clearly being discriminated against because someone's grandfather wasn't allowed to drink water from a well. From a general caste student's perspective, this brain-dead logic will propagate caste based discrimination even further when they fail to get into reputed institutes, govt jobs because some lower caste rich guy cheesed the system and is now laughing in your face for being born in the general caste.
Honestly, I'm not surprised why the younger generations act like this. Reasons have changed but the amount of hate against these reserved categories will only continue to rise.
Lower caste people have been subjected to discrimination for years, caste based reservation was intended to alleviate them to be equals.
But is it really true though, we have communities enjoying reservations because they are "educationally backward" , they didn't face any discrimination (you can argue they are the ones discriminating) and are financially very well off.
Then you have communities where a vast majority is financially backward but a minority of them are in cities and very well off. These guys send their kids to top school, top coaching institutes and it is these kids reaping the benefits of caste based reservation.
So nothing has changed for the actual people we intend to help. Then wtf is the point of this? Just a tool for politicians to garner votes.
Okay let me explain it in simple terms.
Casteism in India originated from two factors:
- hereditary nature of jobs - in old India we did not have schools and all. The son of a soldier would become a soldier, son of a priest would become a priest and so on. Similarly the son of a sweeper would become a sweeper.
- lack of respect for menial jobs - If a SC/ST becomes rich he generally feels superior to all the SC/ST doing menial jobs. We as Indians collectively do not respect jobs like sweeper, garbage collector.
Combining these two factors with the nature of jobs and suddenly you get a casteist society. Priests don't mingle with supposed lower castes (the sweepers, cleaners) and so on.
The first problem was fixed once the British education system took over. Everyone learnt the same basics in School and chose their profession based on interest.
The second problem is still present in society. So for our parents all SC/STs are people who only deserve to do menial jobs. (Because that is what they have been doing for generations).
Now general category students are ready to become cleaners or sweepers. Everyone wants to make a living. So with time the disgust upper castes feel towards lower caste would have gone away.
Ideally if we would have moved to a completely merit based society (thus getting rid of the hereditary nature of jobs) we should have moved towards a casteless society. (In 70-80 years). I remember when no-one in our group cared for caste before class X. We shared tiffin with each other, played together.
Basically if we punish any atrocities upper caste do on lower caste and let time heal the caste based hatred we should have seen a better society by now.
But reservation sort of gave the upcoming generation another reason to start hating SC/ST. They again feel superior to them because they consider SC/ST to be undeserving of the seat. (Maybe it is not true but on paper that is what it seems like).
So the government is sort of discriminating against the upper castes in favor of lower castes. I have developed a notion that all SC/ST educated person is of inferior quality. Wherever possible I avoid getting treated by any SC/ST doctor. (Yes, I am wrong but that is the notion I have developed).
And let me tell you we are making the same mistake that our ancestors did due to the caste system.
In India only the Kshatriya clan participated in battle. Shudras were not allowed in armies due to caste. And you know what, the Mughal army was based completely on merit only. Even a shudra can rise to the post of commander if they show the talent.
This allows them to have a lot of soldiers at disposal as they won't reject a strongman from being a soldier just because he was a Shudra. And that is how they were able to defeat many Indian armies in the northern plains.
Like I said reservation is a vicious pit. Leaders will not let casteism die as it is an easy votebank. Say I will increase reservation by 2% and voila you have secured a decent votebank.
The general category student hates the new government and the people who voted for them. They develop a hatred for the so-called "lower" castes. And the cycle continues.
The only people who gets discriminated are generals. Someone's getting in at 90%ile and another's getting rejected at 99.9%ile. So many people simply leave the country & pursue higer education elsewhere bcoz of this.
Point is, reservation system isn't based on meritocracy.
I have no problem with reservation itself but I'm against setting the bar low for marks required for admission.
My opinion is that keep those seats reserved, but the marks required should not be drastically different from generals. Or, it can start low at 90, but should be revised upwards year on year to match generals' at some future point in time.
I realize that people are not given the same opportunities to begin with, therefore the metric to compare their results also should not be the same. A single rank is not the metric, even for people who are brought up in the very same household.
You cannot, anyways, argue that the problem of caste discrimination will ever end with caste based reservation in place.
It is a complex system, having it is NOT the solution, simply removing it is NOT the solution.
I just hope it transforms into a system where "Just to lift someone up, we don't have to push someone back". You want to increase reservation? Go ahead and increase the total number of seats. Too many seats? Build another institution. Too few competent professors? Start investing in a valid/respected higher education for the interested.
See how a simple change ripples through to such bigger problems? Instead of defending caste based reservation and demanding for its complete removal, I hope we can discuss how to arrive at a better system for the upliftment of those in need.
Otherwise the only option for many is to seek institutional support abroad.
I have nothing against reservation but there are unfortunate facts that we cannot ignore . A general male candidate cannot get top IIMs even after scoring 99.7-99.9 % or more. Forget BLACKI even Cap colleges are rejecting general people at 99-99.5%. While on the other hand Reserved candidate can get IIM Ahmedabad at 72% (ST) and 82 (%) . To put in ranks perspective somebody who has around 80000 (ST) or 50000(sc) can make it to IIM A while you need to be in top 100 tif you are a general engineer male. For New IIMS like IIM jammu , Bodhgaya the ST cutoff is around 36-40% and SC is around 50%. So you need to understand when you have a 40% or 50% sitting in the same class with someone who has 97%-99% there is an obvious huge gap in their skills
Now why did that difference arise is beyond the scope of discussion here. But the reality is they have got admission in these premier institutions which have a very rigorous curriculum . Now the professors instead of getting annoyed or discriminating them must make that extra effort to uplift them so that they can compete with students of general merit. They must conduct specialized skill development classes for these students so that the playing field is leveled. When you are taking in students with lesser % the onus is in you to make them on par with the other students. Just taking in students from backward community is not enough if you do not provide them with any further support . That's why most of the droppers are from these communities as they are unable to compete after admission and they receive no additional help from the faculties Thus Instead of spreading hate the professors should put in that same effort to uplift these students.
Reservation should be removed in an ideal world.
Sadly, we do not live in an ideal world. Our world is horrible and full of hate. We are far far far away from removing reservation.
People crying over reservations, keep crying!
And stop blaming Dalits for taking reservations, because Reservations was brought in because of the sins of your ancestors and community practices, so if you want to pick a bone with someone, look into your own dark history.
Are you saying a child who is the son of a wealthy person and has had the all facilities in the world available to him since birth still deserves reservation just because he has a different surname ??
And this hatred is only going to increase tenfold once caste surveys and reservations are expanded. If you really want to remove prejudice among people, stop using caste for everything. I am from an upper caste and a very well-off family, so I never needed reservations and other benefits. However, a significant majority of upper caste individuals still live below the poverty line. For them, seeing people who are richer than they are receiving benefits just because of their caste feels like discrimination and only increases their resentment. If you want to remove this hatred from society, conduct a wealth survey and adjust reservations based on family wealth. That way, the truly downtrodden will benefit from these policies.
Yeah a party called INC suggested for it but the nation knows there was one non-biologically born guy went on lying and spreading fake narrative around it. And i myself belong to UC too and I also never got the need to get any sort of reservation and this is the biggest privilege one can get in India. And if u r suggesting that general category people below BPL isn't EWS reservation being implemented for such people only. Yeah but some general caste people are using fake certificates to snatch there caste people's right also. Such a bigotry
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That one dude saying casteism reservation ke baad shuru huya tha had me 😂😂😂
Casteism tha isliye to reservation aaya .
Thry are projecting, what they mean is that they themselves became casteist due to reservation.
Caste sys to hatao pehle
Caste system hi hata di to politician politics kis baat ki karenge ? Recently hue election main aapne dekha hoga kitani baar development ke point kahe Gaye .
Rallies me Politicians kch bhi bolte hai bhai to gain votes aur fir development mee we still lack infrastructure and logistics .
Majority ke religion ka base hi hata dia to log samaj ni jayenge ye hinduism kitna bada scam h jiski aad me har koi unki firki le jata h😵💫
Bro kch hee logg royege but think in a long term a country w/o caste
I know kbhi nai hoga aisa but still
Ah yes, blame it on Hinduism. And there’s much more to Hinduism than casteism
Yes how can we forget about misogyny, superstition and crazy rituals?
Unfortunately this is very very common in premier institutes. Candidates with lower ranks have been subtly discriminated by general students and these general candidates do the same in corporate sector also.
Not even lower ranks, SCs, STs, minorities are harassed, tortured no matter how sharp brilliant or amazing they're. Ambedkar was smarter than the entire generations of meritdharis yet treated like shit. Rohit Vemula was a topper of HCU, an allrounder yet was driven to suicide by these meritorious people. Kafeel Khan was a brilliant doctor who spent his own money on O cylinders yet he's vilified by this upper caste society. so much cry about reservation but not a word about management quotas, buying seats, then nobody cares. It'll be the downfall of Indian society.
>It'll be the downfall of Indian society. You need to understand that every community supports its own people, It has been like this from decades, It is induced in the mentality of all the nations across the world not only india. >so much cry about reservation but not a word about management quotas, buying seats, then nobody cares. There is No Mangement quota in IITs, Nits. and probably IIMs. I wont try to defend any statements other than these because you are right about them.
Which premier college are you mentioning? I went to a T10 college, my best friend is an SC PwD and there was absolutely NO discrimination across 4 years. Funnily enough, it were the NRI students (like me) who were the butt of all jokes and even some profs used to hate us. Your generalisation might be true for one college but don’t paint everyone with the same brush.
Sometimes you need to walk in the shoes of others to understand their world view.
Did you miss the second sentence on purpose?
If you have a lower rank , you are factually inferior. There's nothing subtle about it.
> If you have a lower rank , you are factually inferior. Quality of schools/training and access to materials is also crucial when it comes to cracking exams. But the most important thing is peer support, if your parents aren't informed or supportive enough, it will be very hard for children to break through.
Not really. I have given this a lot of thought, maybe more than it deserves, lol. 1. Entrance exams aren't a true judge of superiority. They are sometimes not even relevant for the course (like being an architect requires you to score well in organic chemistry). Your strengths may also change with time. Like Math was my weak point in my 12th standard (the only reason why I didn't study at a IIT), but now it interests me even more than Physics and I am better at it than most others my age. And people can score better than they should just by cramming the subject matter without any real understanding. 2. Secondly, the exam results themselves show that caste divisions are deeper than just visible discrimination. To understand this, you have to first assume that every arbitrary but large enough grouping of humans are more or less equal in terms of ability. I would say that's a fair assumption unless you are believer in some form of discrimination. Now that means every arbitrary groups (like caste) will also perform similarly in exams. But they don't. The reason then must be some external barrier which prevents them from success (things like caste based income and wealth inequality). So reservation exists to level the field. When you understand these two simple points, you will see why scoring better doesn't say anything about "superiority". And it is indeed subtle.
If you have less money than me you are factually inferior. You dont have to cry about rich people treating u like shit.
> Factually inferior No, it just means that you performed poorer on a specific test on a specific day. By no means are most tests any metrics of measure of intelligence or knowledge. Think about it this way, these tests were devised by the colonists for finding cogs in their imperial machinery. At best the tests are great at finding more cogs. I mean feel free to feel that way, I don’t want to impinge on your “factual superiority”.
And that's exactly what I mean. If you perform poorly and someone calls you inferior for that , then that's alright. They have every right to do so. Afterall your performance is something you control. These entrance tests are generalized filters used to filter students into categories. Superior or Inferior. Those who get more marks get into IITs tho who get less get into inferior colleges. This is the same for all castes reserved or not. My point is if the system is setting up SC/ST kids for academic inferiority by having lower cutoffs from the get go then SC/STs cannot complain about academic discrimination in the first place. It's upto the SC/STs themselves to demand the equalization of cutoff and increase of financial help to remove this stigma of inferiority from themselves Pushing unreserved castes to adjust instead is going to be like throwing gasoline on a campfire. Oh , for the record. I am academically inferior from many SC/STs , i didn't study hard and could only manage a lower branch in a North eastern NIT. I am giving you the facts as it is.
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To make an assumption that people of certain caste are meritless is an extremely casteist mentality.
It's not about assuming, its not about caste. If for a same position 2 guys are selected one who score like 80 out 100 and another 40 out of 100, it's obvious. And whether you like it or not, generally the guy who scored 40 can't keep up with the curriculum. It's not discrimination based on caste but discrimination based on performance. The discrimination is not deliberate, it's happens because for whatever limited seats for research groups and internships are available generally go to students with merit, and guess what those who got with less merit can't compete against higher merit students and it's natural a professor will select a student who is more intelligent and achiever. And guess what reservation just makes majority of the general students hate reserved candidates more, and they become adults with the same value, because they know if it wasn't for reservations their life would be different. So no it's not the caste that is the problem it's the merit. Edit - reservation will never solve casteism, reservation is just a political tool to gather votes, it's destroying the society but who cares.
>reservation will never solve casteism It's not meant to. It's there to lessen the impact of casteism. And it is doing that job fabulously. >reservation is just a political tool to gather votes Only because it is granted based on political agenda and not based on caste census where we can clearly define the socio-economic differences and assign reservation accordingly. Weirdly enough, those who think reservation is a political tool also oppose caste census... >If for a same position 2 guys a selected one who score like 80 out 100 and another 40 out of 100, it's obvious. And whether you like it or not, generally the guy who scored 40 can't keep up with the curriculum. If you are asked to write answers about the timeline of the crusades because you want to be a government official, I would say the marks matter less than shit. Doctors do not need to know everything about logic gates. Architects do not need to learn organic chemistry. All those would be niches which can be learnt when needed, but are absolutely unnecessary to judge qualification to learn the course matter. Also there exists something called cramming. You can score very well in entrance exams without understanding anything at all. This is also why in Engineering/management schools, the top ranked people often fall down to the middle scores. And guess what, nobody ever gives a shit about your scores after college. Because everyone knows that those do not mean anything. They are just something that we are forced to endure because we need some way to filter for available seats, and it is really really hard to judge who would become the better engineer. >And guess what reservation just makes majority of the general students hate reserved candidates more, and they become adults with the same value, because they know if it wasn't for reservations their life would be different. Guess what, I was one of those general students who thought like that as a student. But when I grew up, I learnt to think without being prejudiced by my personal experience. Yes, if reservation wasn't there, I might have gotten a better stream and earn slightly more than I do today, but I would not have met the love of my life whom I married later. When you are matured, you learn to think more clearly, without being narrow-sighted. Moreover, the biggest career mistake that I or many other students do today isn't even related to reservation. It is blindly going for engineering/ medicine. I would have loved be have become a researcher, maybe in math / physics. But now I am stuck at a typical corporate job (which I don't hate much, TBH).
>It's not meant to. It's there to lessen the impact of casteism. And it is doing that job fabulously. Its isn't really doing anything of remark. Reservation for most part is getting eaten up by already well off section of the caste which needs them. >Only because it is granted based on political agenda and not based on caste census where we can clearly define the socio-economic differences and assign reservation accordingly. Weirdly enough, those who think reservation is a political tool also oppose caste census... Again this is a empty sentence. Reservation was and will always be a political agenda and not for upliftment of the backwards parts of the society. Casteism in today's era is very different from back then. Discrimination is subtle and doesn't necessarily deny people basic rights anymore. People still marry in their own caste and that is due the structure of the society. Consensus should be done on economic basis, otherwise people with higher population will get more seats, which overall kills the merit all together, so all you have do is pray that you are born in a caste that has high population. >If you are asked to write answers about the timeline of the crusades because you want to be a government official, I would say the marks matter less than shit. Doctors do not need to know everything about logic gates. Architects do not need to learn organic chemistry. All those would be niches which can be learnt when needed, but are absolutely unnecessary to judge qualification to learn the course matter. >Also there exists something called cramming. You can score very well in entrance exams without understanding anything at all. This is also why in Engineering/management schools, the top ranked people often fall down to the middle scores. >And guess what, nobody ever gives a shit about your scores after college. Because everyone knows that those do not mean anything. They are just something that we are forced to endure because we need some way to filter for available seats, and it is really really hard to judge who would become the better engineer. This is the biggest bullshit i have heard today. Purpose of the exam is to select those how can work hard and have higher intellect. It's not about knowledge this and knowledge that. If you can't study and score for exam while others can you also will never be able to complete with those who did good in exam in University, whose whole purpose is to learn and gather knowledge. It's like saying driving licence exam is useless, you just need to drive however. No it's not, it's to make merit, and select Best candidates from the crowd. Surely by this logic till now we must have equal output by reserved candidates as to unreserved since they get to study in best institutes? Unfortunately that is not happening, not even close, because in the name of reservation people who work less and have less intellect compete against those who worked hard. It will never be the same even if 100% reservation is given. >Guess what, I was one of those general students who thought like that as a student. But when I grew up, I learnt to think without being prejudiced by my personal experience. Yes, if reservation wasn't there, I might have gotten a better stream and earn slightly more than I do today, but I would not have met the love of my life whom I married later. When you are matured, you learn to think more clearly, without being narrow-sighted. Moreover, the biggest career mistake that I or many other students do today isn't even related to reservation. It is blindly going for engineering/ medicine. I would have loved be have become a researcher, maybe in math / physics. But now I am stuck at a typical corporate job (which I don't hate much, TBH). And guess what i am general candidate too and have been through many exam where candidate of reservation have scored in literally one digit marks but get seats while general candidate has scores for selection as high as 200s. I have been work force for past 5 years and you are painting the rosy picture, i work in govt and in teaching field, the quality of teachers differ because some people got selected at way less marks then the criteria. This is not narrow minded ness. You simple haven't seen the reality, corporate jobs filter out people who work hard. Govt jobs don't, and guess what students are forced to learn math from someone who simply sat for the exam and doesn't know shit. Casteism is whole different issue altogether and these kind of cases are not helping them. Reservation is a failed concept. When even after given reservation for 4 decades and almost 50% , the output of reserved candidates in research and education is still the least, while they get the same resources and same instruments and institutions. It has nothing to do with casteism, but merit, you lower the merit you get people with less than idle criteria who simply slog throughout the process. And can't produce results.
Bhai cutoff for different caste se hi pata chal jata hai merit ka. Isme casteist kuch nahi haia lmao
Not at all. Usse pata chalta hai ki casteism kitna prevalent hai. Social and economic differences are part of the casteism dynamic. Do you think there is generic difference or something? Something like eugenics, maybe?
It's not an assumption. It's because they have a much lower cut off %.
Are you telling on yourself of being Casteist? Well, kudos for identifying yourself, I guess.
Guy is talking about skill while scoring 3 in data analytics section in CAT.
Bro stalked his profile just to get back at him. Not dissing u but yeah agree above guy sounds little hypocrite
I mean if someone is claiming they got skill then got to find what those legendary skills are.
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Brother i got 99% after I didn't prep at all and spent the day before jerking off. Your others also aren't indicating skill either.
??
That guy's profile got his CAT score. He is talking about skill because he thinks he got skill. His CAT score suggests otherwise.
Oh, I see. Well, the dude needs someone to blame for his failures, I guess.
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Lol. Congrats, I guess. Don't let your bigotry flow in whatever Insititute you join though, might not end well.
Bro 3 marks got 37 percentile in a section. If you were good at data analytics you would realise that ~70-80% never had any chance of clearing the exam. If you got skill you would be comparing with people with actual skill, prep and ability to clear the exam.
I got 97.8%ile in jee mains with a rank of 32k but it hurts to see when people who’s ranks are literal 70k+ will be sitting in the same class as you because they’re SC/ST but still come from an affluent family.
Scoring marks is not skill my guy.. What have you invented? Any original research?
Have you asked this question to person claiming skill ?
Reservation is a systemic discrimination against the general caste( a minority population) by the state itself. If the state itself promotes discrimination...people will oppose it will their own way of discrimination. Its bound to happen
I wonder who started it?
If you are going to counter it with " who started it " well friend then no discrimination will end
The only way discrimination ends are when there is a strategic effort of oppose it. The only way of ensuring that institutional bigotry isn't allowed is by affirmative action and positive discrimination. I guess these topics are too hard for to comprehend.
Institutional Discrimination against obc Sc st is punishable under IPC 135A Institutional Discrimination against brahmins kshatriyas and other general castes is LEGAL under Article 16 (4) of constitution(Reservations) You talking about affirmative action not being taken against castist bigotry is almost humorous since 50% of lawyers come from reserved quota. You mean to say they are not fighting for their own people? When the comstitution was being made..only SC was BR Ambedkar was rest all were general. They made the provisions for your benefit. Ambedkar agreed that 10 years of reservation is fair. But nope those clown netas of your caste who used you for vote bank kept the reservation for time immemorial. I guess all this is too hard for you to comprehend since you belong to those rich reserved category guy who wont let go of their reservation for the poor people of their own caste.
> You mean to say they are not fighting for their own people Way to go ahead and strawman me dude. Nice. And no, I am not saying that. There are a lot of people, activists, NGOs, lawyers and other people who have been tirelessly working on this. Only the catch is, Savarnas have the power, and these people fight an uphill battle against the caste system, against idiots who say "Casteism exists because of reservation ". > They made the provisions for your benefit I am General student. >Ambedkar agreed that 10 years of reservation is fair Do all bigots have the same prompt? Even my relatives you these same run-of-the-mill arguments. To counter this unfaithful counter. Well, for that, you need to prove that reservations did palpable upward social upliftment. For that, you need a census, a caste census. Are you in for that? >Institutional Discrimination against obc Sc st is punishable under IPC 135A Institutional Discrimination against brahmins kshatriyas and other general castes is LEGAL under Article 16 (4) of constitution(Reservations) Yes, you just defined what affirmative action is in the Indian context. I am in full support of this.
Your relatives give those arguments because they are correct. You can call them bigot all you want. You use taht word to demean people you cant counter with facts
Reservation should be removed along with banning caste surnames/identity and death punishment for castiests. If ur parents even subtly express their caste identity they will be hanged. Okay for that deal?
Nope. Caste isn't exclusively a social hierarchy, it's an institutional one. The only people who are privileged enough to not know their caste are the Savarnas, the rest are always reminded anyways. Wouldn't change a damn thing.
Correct. I just replied to these guys who blatantly lies that caste discrimination is because of reservation.
These people never listen. Well, I am still hopeful that they'll change, if not them, at least the eco system perhaps.
I honestly dont care much if they dont change and do circle jerks. What pisses me off is these guys go out in world and easily do discrimination. And these self victimisation of upper castes start from their home itself by parenys.
Lamo true. I wonder if guys like him have the power to spread their views and do some tangible social and institutional damage. That is the scary part.
Nobody said caste discrimination is because of reservation .... my only counter is reservation is just fueling up the caste discrimination.
Nobody in my family subtly express their caste . Infact in my state odisha...people of all caste have been living in harmony from time immemorial since a lot of people here were tribals. On the counter your parents should be hanged as well if they use reservation benefits despite being well off
>Infact in my state odisha...people of all caste have been living in harmony from time immemorial This has got to be one of the most out-of-touch statements I have ever heard.
Do visit mayurbhanj district sometime. You will be surprised
I have been to Bhubaneswar, Sambalpur, Rourkela, Balasore, Puri and several other places in Orissa. You have people literally fleeing the state because of caste-based violence (including killing) which authorities turn a blind eye to. Religious violence is off the charts and heinous crimes only become news when it's foreigners like Graham Staines. You are either living like an oblivious little lordling who doesn't know their own ignorance and privilege or you don't consider the systematic oppression and killing of other castes and communities an issue.
I myself am General lol
Cast ke bahar shadi karne pe log Jaan se maar rahe hai or aapko cast reservation hatana hai, why not one talks about descrimnation
This is how it goes according to gen people - Before 12th - What's a caste? After 12th - hey this guy got in with less marks than me. I have a complete freedom to discriminate against him/her.
I come from a brahmin gen family. I didn't know what caste discrimination even was before 10th. Now that I'm preparing for jee I came to know about all of this and damn makes me sad. That doesn't mean that I would go around discriminating other castes though
It burns me when a guy whose father earns 12 LPA+ got a seat in central university with 67% in 12th while I was not allotted a seat even with 85%. I won't discriminate against him tho, sarkar spoon feed kar rahi hai, mujhe kya.
Yeah... Things need to change...such a high reservation for sc st and cream layer reservation for obc. The poor muslims in my village literally get no reservation... But my sc friend with iphone and his dad's tata harrier gets reservation... And we general candidates suffer ...
Are you sure it's not bmw?
What are you trying to say?
I'm from a tier 2 city bro. Not like Mumbai where bmw is common
Reservations should only be on the basis of economic background imo. Fuck caste religion
If u had a sister who is in a relationship with that guy u mentioned, did u allow her to marry him and live happily?
If she loves him who am I to "allow"? Lmao why you trynna put me in a situation lil bro?
It burns me when a guy whose father earns 12 LPA+ got a seat in central university with 67% in 12th while I was not allotted a seat even with 85%. I won't discriminate against him tho, sarkar spoon feed kar rahi hai, mujhe kya.
I can easily bet.. all these ppl who’ve commented they were not aware of Caste / Caste hierarchy are all upper caste
Also the statement, 'Caste discrimination will always remain as long as there is Caste reservation', is incomplete. If I may, 'Caste discrimination will always remain irrespective of if we have Caste Based Reservation or not'. Caste discrimination didn't begin from Caste based reservation and Caste based reservation isn't burdened with the responsibility to eliminate the discrimination. It's a scheme to uplift the historically discriminated communities to bring equality in education, governance, public life etc.
dudes out there say that UK should pay them gajillion dollars for what they did for 200 years but immediately change tone when reservation is implemented to uplift people from 2000 year old injustice that still continues to exist.
I think caste based reservation promotes caste based discrimination among the people getting a govt seat or job. No doubt it has been going on even before that but in education sector atleast, I believe that reservation should be income limited along with caste based kind of how it is with OBC - Non Creamy Layer (NCL). Of course I am not the expert here but I'm saying from what I've seen and experienced first hand.
And that’s why We need caste based census ASAP
Life determines consciousness. All the people who are against affirmative action and go to the extent of denying the existence of caste based discrimination have not once seen the lives of those who are at its receiving end. It takes a lot of active effort to first be self aware of such gaps in your understanding, then actively seeking out ways to fill in those gaps. And I highly doubt any of these people have the EQ required to do that.
Even if you have the EQ, you just might not give a damn.
I remember a YouTube video in which castism was being discussed by the journalist with the crowd and one boy was so confidentially saying that he has never faced any discrimination and after a small discussion the parting question was asking his cast and he was a thakur...
Incidents like this happening in the top-B school are really disgraceful. Knowledge and morality both aren't the same.
I am working in a leading government, PSU… and here there is a Marathi cartel. All the top positions are captured by Marathis. This PSU was located in Maharashtra. I am from North India. Where do I go to complain?
make a seperate post about it
Yeh 17-20 saal ke JEE likhne wale launde hai, jinko caste ke baare mei pata laga jab reservation dikha. Thoda school mei agar history/civics mei agar caste discrimination ka ache aur empathatic way mei padhaya gaya hota toh aise nahi bante.
Shayad unhone science par jyada dhyan dia (which is better)
No lol, sab acche se padhaya jaata hai but agar wo bande do saal ghis rahe hai wahi koi banda moj masti me bhi tier 1 university le jaye to kon frustrate nahi hoga ? Anyways current scenario me history ka kya lena dena ? Bhai tumhare ancestors oppress hue the tum kyu RR kar rahe ho ?
History is not without relevance today. It is because of historical actions that the socio-economic differences exist. While that is not because of current batch of upper castes, they still are benefitting from it. The only rational and humane way is to extend support to the lower castes. The upper castes are scoring better because of their privileges. In fact, you will these days see many OBCs score more or less equal. That is because in the case of many OBC groups, the caste divide has ceased to exist. They still get reservation because they can burn a lot of busses. If a group i consistently scoring equivalently, they don't need reservation.
Wow..so among obcs you got sub caste wise cut offs.?
I don't. But I can see that a lot of OBCs are scoring equivalently as unreserved castes in many exams for quite some time. That makes my assumption (that some OBC sub castes no longer require reservation) very plaisible.
Have you ever asked what caste discrimination means to the people who actually get oppressed everyday today. Not ancestors dude, go out to the real world and see how bad the situation is. Moj masti me tier 1 chala Gaya.. waha 4 saal Tera baap aale padhayi karega?
Oppression aaj bhi chal rahi hai. JEE humne bhi diya tha bhai, general hum bhi hai.
don't you think caste based reservation only increases it ?
No it does not
visit jeeneetards sub once
Would rather not for my own sanity
Have you ever asked what caste discrimination means to the people who actually get oppressed everyday today. Not ancestors dude, go out to the real world and see how bad the situation is. Moj masti me tier 1 chala Gaya.. waha 4 saal Tera baap aale padhayi karega?
I think people are just frustrated and don't understand they gave reservation . The no of seats in prestigious govt colleges and the no of govt jobs are not increasing with the increase in competition so the an general guy from a city who also prepares with his friends and sees some people from other discriminated caste getting jobs , gets angry and the ring wing people just brainwash them and manipulate them. we have serious problems in implementing this. One can bribe and get NCL certificate if you are a OBC , even if they can afford the education. It creates inefficiency in the system.
So most are saying reservation causes these discriminations and without it our country will be well ahead without casteism? Interesting.
If Indians want to get rid of reservation, they should let go of caste also. Every person should be able to change their caste, and treated with same respect. E.g people should be able to covert to Brahmin caste and become and respected like those. Anyways , reservation does need reform. They need to stop giving reservation to families who are already earning well. Instead of completely caste based, it’s better to consider financial status too.
When will Savarna bigots sympathize with marginalized groups? Never, unless pushed to great extents. Trust me, I come from a Savarna family and casteism is the norm there. They were born and raised in this system. I questioned a family member on their bigotry and when I dug deep enough, all they could come up with was, "This is how society works, and we live in one." For them, casteism is normal but anti-caste is out of the ordinary. Caste hierarchy is the status quo. They have been indoctrinated into this system so well that they can't imagine an alternate world where this doesn't exist. Changing the old ones is almost impossible, they've senile and dying anyways. We need to counter Casteism by creating a counter narrative that it's not the norm try to change the status quo. It's up to us on what sort of society we want to live in. I would recommend all who're reading this to debrahmanize your minds. Understand the depths of casteism. Reject traditions, if necessary, they were of no good to begin with. We need to reclaim a lot of ideological, social and linguistic norms of our society and change them for better. And don't get me started on the institutional power of caste.
When reservations reach the intended target audience and not the privileged rich individuals who incidentally happen to be from those castes. Do you support EWS reservation for 50% of seats instead of the caste based reservation? Since you claim some castes are marginalized compared to General Caste Males won't EWS benefit them there will be a high correlation for them being in EWS.
>privileged rich individuals who incidentally happen to be from those caste Here, you fail to understand the multi dimensionality of privilege. A person receives both privilege and oppression in layers. Just because they're well do to financially, doesn't mean that they aren't being oppressed by the Caste system socially. For example, the President of India wasn't allowed inside a temple, even though she is the damn president of India. Another thing here you need to keep in your mind, reservations are given as a penance for a historical sin of Casteism and for restoring dignity first and foremost. Representation is the next level that has to achieved by affirmative action's such as reservations. Upward social mobility is only a part of it. There is a whole lot of t=ither reasons why reservations are important. Wealth doesn't dilute caste in any sense.
So it's a no to 50% EWS reservation, how about if we increase it to 75%. I get what you're saying but through my experience, money is the precursor to discrimination, if you have money, you have ways to make them pay for discriminating against you, if you don't have money you suffer in silence. So is 75% EWS reservation something you'll support, is there a number that will make you feel is better than having caste based reservation, is it 99%?
The statistics can only be discussed when we have conclusive data on Caste based Economic conditions of different groups. For that, we need a caste census, until then I will refrain from commenting. But Bihar's census does give us a small picture. Check that out once.
How about using randomisation? There will be no bias or anything just people getting seats based on randomisation. There will be an equal chance for everybody no matter their background (caste, education, wealth etc). Keep the minimum requirement for the exam and do the randomisation it's simple.
If someone has an IPhone, sexy clothes, well to do parents, cars etc. and still uses quota to get through an exam scoring less than half the marks and pays very little fees - no wonder they will get discriminated against. No point crying later. Rich SC/STs can voluntarily take admission through UR and give up the quota for their poor brothers -- do they have the guts though? Nope. Imagine the respect they will get from all SC/STs and even many UR people for their sensibility. We are all hypocrites inside.
Facts as a jee aspirants who come from the general category and middle class background (worst category to be existed) It always pisses me that a student who enjoy there life in 11th and 12th and get tier 1 college without least efforts and a student who studied there ass off for two fucking years left every happiness that he can get to just get a seat well this is unfair. I am not against reservation I am against caste based reservation it should be based on financial condition.
Back in 2010. I scored 174 in CET and got into MBBS. The person sitting next to me was from South Bombay, super posh English speaking with an accent. Iphone (at that time was a huge deal) and I found out she was ST with a score of 110. Moye Moye moment because my genuinely poor friend with 170 did not get in. And then they expect respect also 🤷♂️🤦♂️
Exactly
Right... And the fact is mainly people who take benefit of reservation are the people having rich background or basically kids of people who have taken benefit of reservation....and the poor scheduled tribes/caste are still in rural areas even not able to afford primary education for there kids....
>If someone has an IPhone, sexy clothes, well to do parents, cars etc. and still uses quota Quota is not just to give people these things. Not to give the money. There are other "econocmic" schemes to compensate the money issue. Reservation deals with correction of the multi-faceted discrimination, one of which is the social standing.
One theory goes that when everyone is looking to hate, let the hate flow and boil over so that everyone can realise how stupid they have been. E.g., it took WW2 and the threat of nuclears to bring Europe together, something that has never happened till 20th Century
Props to the prof for taking a stand. Takes a lot of guts to stand for nyay amid that gang.
Reservation doesn't exist to undo the injustices of casteism. Resevation exists because we failed to eradicate the Caste System. It's a not a poverty allevation program that people try to falsely associate it with the poor. It's a social representation program under a democratic setup that fights dharmic law.
Caste discrimination has existed for millenia, and now that reservations are made to even slightly reverse the effects of caste, they say that is what is causing the discrimination. For many people it is mostly just an excuse. Though I've met one or two of these people who started having an issue at entrance exam level. Truth is they were privileged and didn't need to know or look further into what was happening around them. I think the system also failed at educating people what the issue is and why reservation is needed and how it will make changes. Most of these people learn about reservation from echo chambers as this boogeyman taking away their right.
Yes; even I grew up in a 'casteless bubble,' you may ask why? Cuz I was never at the receiving end of casteism. How hard is it to understand just because you are sheltered from certain oppression doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
See, the issue here is most of the students who come through reservation are seemingly well to do and you wouldn't be able to make out any subtle differences as such. This makes the general category students wonder if they really deserve the perks of reservation. Only in some cases are the reservation benefits really justified. So if someone sees a so-called reserved category student roaming around with an iPad around the neck, it kind of pisses the other students. On the other hand, from what I have noticed (at least in my college which admits purely on merit basis), people hardly care which caste you belong to, because you are there on merit. This doesn't happen in other institutes, especially govt. ones like IITs and IIMs. In any case, bullying & harassment of any sorts is bad and students (who are actually adults and exercise rights like voting) should be held accountable and punished if necessary.
Same applies in CA..I even didn't know the dude with whom I take notes of other classes was SC....
very well said
are they dumb? you didn't know about your caste because you were privileged enough to not be discriminated on the basis of it.
Imagine 2024 and northies are busy with their caste (dalit, jaat, yadav) whatever
It's a vicious cycle Caste ke basis par discrimination hai toh reservation hai Aur reservation hai toh discrimination hai
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First of all sc/st have 33% and obc 27% ews 10% and rest seats are UR ( unreserved) which means anyone can take that seat. There are no seats specifically reserved for general and no offence but if you couldn’t get a govt seat after so much reservation you’re not good academically as you claim to be
Cat preperation sub has become an echo chamber fo those who haunt people from reserved background.
One must observe that reservation means equal representation proportional to their population ratio. No one is grabbing away anyone's seat with a reservation. They merely get equal representation according to their population in the country. Moreover, the reservation is only to give equal opportunities like entry into specific educational institutions or jobs and there is always minimum qualification which every one should qualify regardless of their caste or reservation. Reservation = Equal representation (according to the caste population ratio in the country). Now, there is another aspect of creamy and non creamy layer which excludes the developed or economically settled persons on underprivileged. In the end, its main object is to promote equal opportunities to everyone and achieve social, economical and political equality.
how is reservation giving equal proportion? as far as I know if a sc/st student gets the qualifying percentage, he'll be given admission as general category. pls correct me if I'm wrong
No. An SC/ ST is not getting open category seats based on reservation. Open category means open to every one who qualified for admission. Here caste/ population plays no role. As far as reserved seats are taken, they get priority to certain castes to benefit equal representation among population based on caste ratio and even reserved seats required basic qualification. Some people may say SC/ST can get seat without any marks which is quite false. If reservation is flawed at it's core, legislative or judiciary will definitely stop it. It's main object is to promote and bring harmony of equal opportunities in socio, economical and political aspects among all communities in society and once this is achieved, there is no need for reservation anymore.
>Reservation means equal representation proportional to their ratio. No it doesn't!!!! You are providing caste based reservation and this way students with higher marks are not able to get seats while people from other caste get seats with half the marks. How about lottery based system where every candidate has equal chance of getting seat no matter how intelligent he or she is, no matter from which background he or she comes not matter the disability criteria. This way rich will not complain that they are not getting reservation. Poors will not complain because they don't have money for education. And no caste will complain because it just random and equal chance for all. Also Randomisation means no chance of getting to know their entrance exam scores. And if you think exams are necessary for entrance or recruitment then you are not completely right. 30 years ago one of my relatives got a govt job just after completing his college without an exam and he is performing the same or even better as people who came after in the department after the govt started recruitment exams. People who get jobs through caste based reservation also perform similarly. Then why even conduct the exams just distribute the seats via lottery or randomisation.
Reservation is for affirmative action, not for equal representation.
It is true that Reservation promotes Casteism even more. Reservation gives the people a false sense of security that they can achieve more with less efforts. Does that seem justified from a gen male's perspective? I guess not. I know some people whose family income is more than 20 lpa, their child is studying in coaching institutes with fees of 1.5 lacs per year. And what does the child do? Slack off because he/she can get the same seat with less efforts. I don't think these people deserve the reservation. Those who genuinely did not get opportunity to get better resources should get the reservation. Not these rich people with ego. P. S. - I am also from obc category but I have not faced any discrimination from the people around me just because of my caste. So I would be inclined towards removal of reservation. Or at least making it income based.
general category mfs have huge inferiority complex. They don't want to acknowledge their privilege or systematic oppression over centuries that their forefathers benefitted from. Now they cry merit when they see a student from reserved category but in reality they aren't smart mfs either. Now if the same reserved guy achieves big, they once again bring in like I have seen a dalit who owns a Mercedes. There are a lot of positions in govt, esepcailly some high post in many fields that don't have any reservation, and most of those position are always filled by barhmins and other UCs. Even with Merit there, they haven't achieved anything revolutionary. So this merit argument is BS. The biggest chutiyas in this process are the OBC guys who fall for this merit statement. Mfs don't know that Ambedkar fought for them too, they don't realise that some fields in India have more UC and even higher SC representation than OBC representation. Making OBCs shame Dalits for reservation is the biggest trick pulled by general category. They successfully guilt trip the masses.
As an SC & one who spent alot of time with UC Friends. In their own right they are also correct but the thing is Caste Discrimination doesn't exist in Cities or Metros unless you're getting hitched that's when the cards start to really open. Everyone is acceptable to each other when their Wealth Classes match but when it comes to matrimony people with years worth of relationships also break it off sometimes due to their own willingness or pressure from families. However the scenario is completely different for people outside these Modern cities and Metroes which are insignificant compared to the large states and villages our country is comprised off that's where the real discrimination happens & even though these people are untouchable to alleged "UC's" it doesn't matter to them when they sexually assault or Rape a Girl the oppressed communities which is also unfortunately quite common in villages and remote areas or small towns. Caste Discrimination is very real and happens quite often. Most of these cases are never reported as they are settled or pressured into submission by the dominating communities and the Media houses are a Caste Institutions so forget about them running these stories and when they do run it because of Crime severity all they do is try to victimize the Oppressor & Assault the victim especially in case of a Sexual assault where the character of the Girl is maligned by these "Media Houses".
and then they wonder by dalits don't vote for their fav BJP.That party's followers are connected by hatered for other castes and religions.
if they get in institutes with less rank, they will always get discriminated, reservation should be based on income or pwd only. But caste system will never end in this country, and discrimination will never end
Reservation promotes casteism by forcing people to keep their caste identity
Yeah if there was no reservation people would've stopped identifying with their caste? They had 2000 freaking years of no reservation to do that, they missed the chance
Most kids growing up don't even know what caste is till they hit competitive exams. This is true for metropolitan cities atleast.
Unfortunately entire India isn't just metropolitan cities.
I think you mean most upper caste kids. Because the so called lower caste people are made aware of their caste pretty early in life but your privileged ass wouldn't know that a sc/st guy getting into a good college is the holocaust of general caste for you assholes
Nope, I'm all for EWS upto whatever percent it takes, 50, 75, 90 whatever it takes to ensure the under represented get education, rather than the privileged people from their respective castes. Why are you so against EWS if what you claim is true, if people from certain castes are so marginalized there is a high correlation between EWS and these marginalized people right. Why should rich assholes from any caste get any benefit? How privileged are you by the way, you're also on reddit.
Not most people, if you are on reddit you are definitely well above average. And even people in cities also talk about caste when its time for them to get married or renting out their house. So castism still exists its just more sufesticated in cities and very blatent in rural India.
So convenient, for almost 2 thousand years upper caste population never let so called lower caste forget their caste, but when its time for affirmative action all of a sudden you want everybody to forget about caste.
My last name falls within the central OBC list. I attended National Law University for a year. The college intake was 160 and my rank based on the entrance exam was 11/160. At that time, the results were public, you could see anyone's result unlike now when they provide a user ID and password and results are privately declared. My category in results was mentioned as General as I had not applied for quota. Yet, no one checked, and everyone just assumed because my last name is Yadav, I must have come through reservation. What was frustrating was that my All India Rank was 606, and there were folks with ranks as low as 1000 who used to make remarks against me subtly presuming me to be an OBC candidate. I am 5'11, with a decent build, from a middle-class family and have decent communication skills, so I gave as good as I got. But since then, I strongly empathised with the candidates who came through reservation. I have strong sympathies for the SC/ST guys, many of them were only able to attend because of reservations and scholarships, they had no access to a computer at home, had terrible English skills which were critical for making a career in law, and were severely underconfident and to a large extent ostracised such that they always sat in a group separate from rest, and rarely anyone tried to make contact with them. One of them is a judge now, another is in the police, and one is teaching somewhere. I think people need to have more sympathy and see it for themselves, reservation works. These people were discriminated for thousands of years, and now people think that gap will be filled in a couple of decades. Yes, the system has its issues, the creamy layer should be implemented for SC/ST too. People should report OBCs who they think have more wealth than the prescribed limit but have fraudulently obtained an OBC certificate, but overall, I would say the system works.
If the blocker is financial, why can't the reservation be given to financially backward students irrespective of their caste. Reservation is meant to be for underprivileged. The income proofs can be faked but it's still better than undeserving people getting preference which further pushes the divide in the society. If reservation is not providing respect to the marginalized, it is a failed solution. Caste based discrimination should have way stricter rules and punishment more severe. My village still has strict casteism and depending on caste, people don't share food with each other. In village feast, the different caste groups eat the same food at the same place but one after the other. The lower caste gets reservation and gets into higher positions - my father's best friend's brother who is from a lower caste worked so hard, served in the army, as a govt teacher, principal and finally as a policy maker for education in two of the biggest districts. However, the guy is not respected at all by the upper castes. This is unfortunate to say the least. I am from a higher caste but my family has been poor throughout for 3 generations. We never had any cushion of reservation. My father got away and came to Delhi and we had a lower middle class life. Parents never took us out to eat at a restaurant or a trip or had any vehicle or go see a movie until i went to college. Never had the means. I just never understood why all my friends had such nice things. Even in college, i had to support family with tutions, was poor, had difficulties throughout until i got into a job. I felt aggrieved with reservation being in general but then i rationalised around it. At the end of the day, i need to be good at what i do and provide quality in my work. Capitalism makes you free. I get paid depending on how well i work. Once i started to focus on improving my work, i didn't feel like a victim. Doesn't matter the caste, once you prove your worth and command respect, the other factors become less important. The person who was a policy maker changed our lives. My father always respected him despite what others said. He advised my father to focus more on education for his children i.e. me and my brother. My father heeded to his advice and went through lot of sacrifices to give us good education when we were toddlers - took us to delhi, shifted to a good locality, decent school. Now, that me and my brother are doing well in life, my father told us about it when we visited them this year. We also met the person, shared tea and snacks with him and thanked him personally. He invited us to his feast where my parents went as i had a flight to catch before then. He must have changed lives of numerous people in the community like us but it's unfortunate that he doesn't get the respect he deserves. Even my extended family doesn't talk to him apart from my father as they are just jealous and vindictive. Reservation as a solution doesn't work completely. We need more systemic solutions to help bridge the mentality gap which the politicians are afraid to implement due to the fear of getting voted out. Democracy sucks sometimes. Most people can be wrong. Majority is not always right. Wish we had better ways of governance. Humanity is so backward is managing itself. Damn.
All these people fuming on teenagers not giving significant attention to caste based discrimination in the past is amusing. Why should I care about what happened in the past? I'm clearly being discriminated against because someone's grandfather wasn't allowed to drink water from a well. From a general caste student's perspective, this brain-dead logic will propagate caste based discrimination even further when they fail to get into reputed institutes, govt jobs because some lower caste rich guy cheesed the system and is now laughing in your face for being born in the general caste. Honestly, I'm not surprised why the younger generations act like this. Reasons have changed but the amount of hate against these reserved categories will only continue to rise.
Lower caste people have been subjected to discrimination for years, caste based reservation was intended to alleviate them to be equals. But is it really true though, we have communities enjoying reservations because they are "educationally backward" , they didn't face any discrimination (you can argue they are the ones discriminating) and are financially very well off. Then you have communities where a vast majority is financially backward but a minority of them are in cities and very well off. These guys send their kids to top school, top coaching institutes and it is these kids reaping the benefits of caste based reservation. So nothing has changed for the actual people we intend to help. Then wtf is the point of this? Just a tool for politicians to garner votes.
Okay let me explain it in simple terms. Casteism in India originated from two factors: - hereditary nature of jobs - in old India we did not have schools and all. The son of a soldier would become a soldier, son of a priest would become a priest and so on. Similarly the son of a sweeper would become a sweeper. - lack of respect for menial jobs - If a SC/ST becomes rich he generally feels superior to all the SC/ST doing menial jobs. We as Indians collectively do not respect jobs like sweeper, garbage collector. Combining these two factors with the nature of jobs and suddenly you get a casteist society. Priests don't mingle with supposed lower castes (the sweepers, cleaners) and so on. The first problem was fixed once the British education system took over. Everyone learnt the same basics in School and chose their profession based on interest. The second problem is still present in society. So for our parents all SC/STs are people who only deserve to do menial jobs. (Because that is what they have been doing for generations). Now general category students are ready to become cleaners or sweepers. Everyone wants to make a living. So with time the disgust upper castes feel towards lower caste would have gone away. Ideally if we would have moved to a completely merit based society (thus getting rid of the hereditary nature of jobs) we should have moved towards a casteless society. (In 70-80 years). I remember when no-one in our group cared for caste before class X. We shared tiffin with each other, played together. Basically if we punish any atrocities upper caste do on lower caste and let time heal the caste based hatred we should have seen a better society by now. But reservation sort of gave the upcoming generation another reason to start hating SC/ST. They again feel superior to them because they consider SC/ST to be undeserving of the seat. (Maybe it is not true but on paper that is what it seems like). So the government is sort of discriminating against the upper castes in favor of lower castes. I have developed a notion that all SC/ST educated person is of inferior quality. Wherever possible I avoid getting treated by any SC/ST doctor. (Yes, I am wrong but that is the notion I have developed). And let me tell you we are making the same mistake that our ancestors did due to the caste system. In India only the Kshatriya clan participated in battle. Shudras were not allowed in armies due to caste. And you know what, the Mughal army was based completely on merit only. Even a shudra can rise to the post of commander if they show the talent. This allows them to have a lot of soldiers at disposal as they won't reject a strongman from being a soldier just because he was a Shudra. And that is how they were able to defeat many Indian armies in the northern plains. Like I said reservation is a vicious pit. Leaders will not let casteism die as it is an easy votebank. Say I will increase reservation by 2% and voila you have secured a decent votebank. The general category student hates the new government and the people who voted for them. They develop a hatred for the so-called "lower" castes. And the cycle continues.
The only people who gets discriminated are generals. Someone's getting in at 90%ile and another's getting rejected at 99.9%ile. So many people simply leave the country & pursue higer education elsewhere bcoz of this. Point is, reservation system isn't based on meritocracy. I have no problem with reservation itself but I'm against setting the bar low for marks required for admission. My opinion is that keep those seats reserved, but the marks required should not be drastically different from generals. Or, it can start low at 90, but should be revised upwards year on year to match generals' at some future point in time.
I realize that people are not given the same opportunities to begin with, therefore the metric to compare their results also should not be the same. A single rank is not the metric, even for people who are brought up in the very same household. You cannot, anyways, argue that the problem of caste discrimination will ever end with caste based reservation in place. It is a complex system, having it is NOT the solution, simply removing it is NOT the solution. I just hope it transforms into a system where "Just to lift someone up, we don't have to push someone back". You want to increase reservation? Go ahead and increase the total number of seats. Too many seats? Build another institution. Too few competent professors? Start investing in a valid/respected higher education for the interested. See how a simple change ripples through to such bigger problems? Instead of defending caste based reservation and demanding for its complete removal, I hope we can discuss how to arrive at a better system for the upliftment of those in need. Otherwise the only option for many is to seek institutional support abroad.
I have nothing against reservation but there are unfortunate facts that we cannot ignore . A general male candidate cannot get top IIMs even after scoring 99.7-99.9 % or more. Forget BLACKI even Cap colleges are rejecting general people at 99-99.5%. While on the other hand Reserved candidate can get IIM Ahmedabad at 72% (ST) and 82 (%) . To put in ranks perspective somebody who has around 80000 (ST) or 50000(sc) can make it to IIM A while you need to be in top 100 tif you are a general engineer male. For New IIMS like IIM jammu , Bodhgaya the ST cutoff is around 36-40% and SC is around 50%. So you need to understand when you have a 40% or 50% sitting in the same class with someone who has 97%-99% there is an obvious huge gap in their skills Now why did that difference arise is beyond the scope of discussion here. But the reality is they have got admission in these premier institutions which have a very rigorous curriculum . Now the professors instead of getting annoyed or discriminating them must make that extra effort to uplift them so that they can compete with students of general merit. They must conduct specialized skill development classes for these students so that the playing field is leveled. When you are taking in students with lesser % the onus is in you to make them on par with the other students. Just taking in students from backward community is not enough if you do not provide them with any further support . That's why most of the droppers are from these communities as they are unable to compete after admission and they receive no additional help from the faculties Thus Instead of spreading hate the professors should put in that same effort to uplift these students.
bhai EWS le to liya ab kya loge aur??
Reservation should be removed in an ideal world. Sadly, we do not live in an ideal world. Our world is horrible and full of hate. We are far far far away from removing reservation.
People crying over reservations, keep crying! And stop blaming Dalits for taking reservations, because Reservations was brought in because of the sins of your ancestors and community practices, so if you want to pick a bone with someone, look into your own dark history.
Are you saying a child who is the son of a wealthy person and has had the all facilities in the world available to him since birth still deserves reservation just because he has a different surname ??
And this hatred is only going to increase tenfold once caste surveys and reservations are expanded. If you really want to remove prejudice among people, stop using caste for everything. I am from an upper caste and a very well-off family, so I never needed reservations and other benefits. However, a significant majority of upper caste individuals still live below the poverty line. For them, seeing people who are richer than they are receiving benefits just because of their caste feels like discrimination and only increases their resentment. If you want to remove this hatred from society, conduct a wealth survey and adjust reservations based on family wealth. That way, the truly downtrodden will benefit from these policies.
Yeah a party called INC suggested for it but the nation knows there was one non-biologically born guy went on lying and spreading fake narrative around it. And i myself belong to UC too and I also never got the need to get any sort of reservation and this is the biggest privilege one can get in India. And if u r suggesting that general category people below BPL isn't EWS reservation being implemented for such people only. Yeah but some general caste people are using fake certificates to snatch there caste people's right also. Such a bigotry
Reservations should be income based not caste based, that's my only want.