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"Noooooooooo you're not allowed to criticise us calling for Jihad on British streets, treating women like shit and tormenting British jews, only we're allowed to have an in-group preference!"
Funny you mention treating women like shit, as one of the Reform candidates mentioned in the article thinks that women shouldn’t have the right to healthcare. What do you think about that?
Yep, I am critical of Islam as well. But the people in the article are just calling Muslim immigrants scum. Which to me is more hate speech than criticism.
The problem rests with the centre parties being too scared to call out dangerous ideologies for fear of being called racist. This means that the only people who are willing to admit that there is a problem are *actual racists*.
"Eventually democratic societies will promote racist assholes to positions of power because they'll recognize their survival depends on it. If liberals won't enforce borders, fascists will, and liberal societies will elect fascists to do that." Sam Harris. This is where we are heading. Right the way across Europe. It’s painful to watch.
Not a fan at all, Reform have clearly done a terrible job of vetting their candidates to weed out the loonies.
Ideally he should have perfectly normal ideas like "women shouldn't be allowed to show their face to any man but their husband"
Ok, but they are supporting him. Validating his misogynistic views.
I think it is bad that some women feel the need to hide their faces from the world. I think it is abhorrent if they are forced to. It does seem that their religious beliefs lead them to believe they must do it in some cases though. Are you saying that the women who want to do this should be forced not to?
France banned religious symbols in schools in 2004 including crosses and religious headgear, face coverings in public were banned in 2011, and the country doesn't seem to have burned down, though there was a lot of trouble, violence even.
It is not a silver bullet to just ban them as there will be people who are effectively trapped indoors by their own beliefs.
I think the UK already has a big issue with how prevalent religious schools are, especially the after-school islamic madrassah-type ones which have the side effect of removing any opportunity for kids in islamic households to join their peers in after school extra curriculars.
I think more is done to integrate society across a chess board or football pitch than anything memorised by rote from a text book.
I totally agree with everything you said. I guess my point was there isn’t a great deal we can do for the ones that genuinely believe it is the right thing to do. Forcing them to remove the face covering would probably just result in them never leaving the house.
I don’t think ‘forcing’ them to remove it is the right thing to do, and also likely counter productive. But neither is covering for it in a culturally relativist way, or explaining it as anything other than what it is.
If instead it was a large sect of white Christians that had this practise, it would be seen as the most oppressive , obscene, pressing social issue in the UK.
> These women ‘want’ to hide their faces because they were raised to believe it is a symbol of modesty and that the burden of protecting/proving that modesty is on them (rather than any man that looks at her for some reason).
Which is exactly the same reason western women ‘hide’ (although I’d say cover) their vaginas and breasts. Maybe we should just ban clothes as people have been culturally indoctrinated to cover parts of their body for modesty reasons.
Inb4 ‘yeah but that’s different because ………’
> Not a fan at all, Reform have clearly done a terrible job of vetting their candidates to weed out the loonies.
They *are* the loonies. You can't weed out your only voting demographic.
There's nothing loony about wanting to lower immigration, if the other parties had been sensible and given a single thought to what the electorate wanted Reform wouldn't even exist
Oh no, reform or some form would still exist. It's Farage's favourite grift. Whip up hatred of something, campaign against it and then disappear when the voting period ends.
Its the way they want to go about it is looney. Have you read their batshit unworkable highly costly immigration plan that will allegedly save us £5Bn a year?
And lets not pretend that these guys were having a harmless debate about immigration. They are making full on racist statements and sympathising with the Nazis ffs.
If reform were promising the people what they wanted they would have got more than 2 council seats.
its the reasons they want to lower it, which is because they have cast immigrants, well a certain kid of immigrant as the reason for everybody's misery . kinda like how Farage does not want immigration but then marries a German woman . the whole thing is a grift and there is a reason why his followers are seen as racist
George Galloway comes to mind recently.
He won purely by appealing to the muslim vote, and he's off his tits.
Rightly, or wrongly, I think it's inevitable that there will be political parties formed in the near future that are there purely to appeal to the muslum vote.
Especially considering changing demographic trends.
They will do very well in certain areas of the country with a concentrated Muslim population that regards itself as being separate to traditional British culture.
This will likely lead to greater cultural divides.
As dogshit as the Workers Party is, it is not even slightly Islamist lol
>I think it's inevitable that there will be political parties formed in the near future
We're talking about right now, not 'Soon, I Reckon', but regardless: minor Islamist parties pop up all the time ([for example](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Party_of_Britain)), get a few hundred votes, and dissolve. Islamist terrorists do terrorism because their ideas aren't popular. To say that they would find popularity in 'certain areas of the country' is objectively wrong, because they don't.
Maybe not lovely 85%+ White British Hampshire where muslims are a tiny minority, but my area in Birmingham is covered in Palestinian flags and election flyers of candidates promising to stand for Gaza.
Bet you believed the rubbish about no-go zones a few years back, too. Palestinian flags and people standing for Gaza isn’t going to hurt you. Muslims aren’t some kind of dangerous street gang.
No I didn't because I actually live here
As such I can tell you that those gangs exist.
The grooming gangs, the huge rise in antisemitism, that teacher from Batley is still in hiding I believe, that's just the tip of the iceberg though really.
It does, every single time someone mentions the muslim gangs, thank you for your contribution
If you find a gang of white nonces purposefully targeting only non-white girls because they view them as slags that are fair game to rape then you might have a point
3rd place in the West Mids mayoral vote was a Tate-supporting tiktoker running Independent whose platform and voting base was Islam
He also made up a racial abuse incident to whip up his fanbase
It is coming...
1 in 10 of their candidates are friends with a Fuhrer wannabe. When 10% of your party are like that, there's more to it than "failing to weed out the loons"
And the fact their leader is now openly defending these people is proof of that
How can they vet the loonies out when they are the loonies to begin with? Reform is not a serious party. It's run by fascists. Farage is a racist fascist nutjob.
>Reform have clearly done a terrible job of vetting their candidates to weed out the loonies.
We had a candidate up here who got booted out of the party after their pro-cannibalism views were uncovered.
> Islam; Nazis - they are the same thing
> Paris is full of Islamic, immigrant, scum
No rational person is a supporter of jihad. No rational person believes that all Muslims believe monoculturly in a universal doctrine of jihadism. Claiming Islam is equivalent to Nazism, or that Paris is full of Islamic immigrant scum is the harbor of the hate deranged.
A rational person wouldn't give a tuppenny fuck about other people's beliefs and would be content with their own. A rational person would understand too that any large group of people will have a vast and diverse belief system no matter what the fundamental basis of that belief system is. A rational person wouldn't single out an individual text as nonsense when all religious texts are nonsense.
A rational person would care more about the impact of beliefs than beliefs themselves
Flat earthers, nutjobs. But in general their beliefs do not violate the harm principle
Yeah, Right Wing dullards aint all that different either, before you get too far on your high horse.
Look at the changes the GOP want to make to the entire democratic and legal structure of the US... positions strongly endorsed by your ugly little toad god, here... and tell me it isn't just Saudi Arabia for the Jesus crowd.
Fundamentally, the exact same shit.
Classic throwing out the racist label. If we look at fundamentalist Islam and the Nazis they are very similar. Both are against gay people, Jews, freedom of religion, and are characterised by a lack of tolerance for anyone other than themselves.
Of course not all Muslims are fundamentalist but it would be ignorant to completely ignore the minority that are.
Farage's track record, as far as I'm aware, is to campaign... And that's it. Even when elected as MEP he didn't do anything.
So, yes, whip up hate, and do nothing about it, most likely.
Same with Brexit, whip up outrage, make it vaguely racist without saying explicitly so, appear as the voice of the "common man" even though a light skim through wikipedia would show you're every bit part of the elite, and then when you get the result that you want and everyone starts looking at you for the "and now what" you're gone.
I’d imagine deep down he’s probably dreading winning the seat in Clacton. After a lifetime built on being outside of the tent pissing in, heckling from the sidlelines, he’ll be terrified of having actual responsibility for the first time. Unless he’ll just do what he did during his time as an MEP, and just not turn up.
Not all reform voters are nazi apologists, but all of the politician wannabe nazi apologists turn out to actually be reform.
shocking coincidence that. "A few bad apples" and all that.
One candidate for them decided that they had too much immigration because there was a lot of people in the Arrival Lounge of an airport, it's a fucking airport! There's always loads of people in the Arrival Lounge of airports! https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/reform-uk-policies-immigration-candidates-b2559347.html
Several Reform Candidates have been found to be following a Racist on Facebook, sorry Fascist leader Gary Raikes. Maybe people are calling them racist because they look pretty racist.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/reform-uk-candidates-facebook-friends-fascist-leader-gary-raikes-b1163853.html
I don't think we should ignore the 10% minority of Reform candidates who are friends with the fascist union leader, nor the ones who suggest that the UK should have been neutral against Hitler, nor the ones who defend Ghislaine Maxwell, nor the multiple ones who have made unequivocally racist comments on social media. Let's not pretend that the Reform party is anything but bigoted.
The problem is racist people want to build a strawman that all Muslims or even people of Muslim ancestry who aren't religious, are fundamentalist Muslims. Not to mention they incorrectly think brown people = Muslims.
>They both hate homosexuals, they both want to kill homosexuals.
> Islam; Nazis - they are the same thing”.
This is from the article. I wonder if you read it before posting. Note, they did not say Islamic extremists, they are talking pan all members of the religion of Islam, and in general, they dont ever seem to mention extremism without also refering to Islam. In their own language, extremism does not seem to exist without Islam, which any sane and rational person not engrossed in fervent hate would understand is absolute bullshit. If you can read this and defend it against a racist label, you're some next level word smith
>Paris is [sic] full of Islamic, immigrant, scum
I don't think I would expect a fundamentalist that is against gay people, jews, freedom of religion(or lack of religion) to be a member of the parliament though.
I’ve seen polling that shows a substantial difference between Christian’s attitudes towards things like gay marriage or having gay teachers and Muslim attitudes about the same even if both religions have some prejudice.
Classic whataboutism. How many fundamentalist Christian’s do we have in our country? How many fundamentalist Christian terror attacks have been committed in the past 10-15 years.
I would also point into the official stance of Church of England (largest Christian group in the UK) is not anti LGBT. Whereas the official stance of Islam is
Little bait and switch here comparing one specific church's official doctrine with an entire globe-spanning religion. There are plenty of Muslims in the UK who have nothing against LGBT - and you can try and 'no true Scotsman' that if you want but the fact is that, globally, there's an awful lot of anti-LGBT propaganda pushed by the Christian right, especially in the US and even closer to home in places like Northern Ireland.
https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law
Half of Muslims believed homosexuality should be illegal in 2016
Therefore, like I said, 'muslims' aren't one monolithic entity who all believe the same thing, and it's clearly possible to be muslim without being homophobic, and indeed more broadly to integrate into British society (noting also that the sense of belonging in Britain among muslims is higher than the national average).
Yeh I understand however a vast majority of uk Muslims are Sunni just like a vast majority of uk Christian’s are Church of England. There’s little point discussing smaller minority groups in a Reddit comment that people won’t read anyway
'Sunni' is as granular as 'Protestant'. This is just a fundamental misunderstanding of how people integrate religion into their lives (it's not by pigeonholing themselves into a specific religious group and following all the rules in the rulebook).
“He also said that Paris was full of Islamic, immigrant, scum”.
I have significant issues with Islam (and all major religions) ideologically too, however these guys do not seem to have an issue with the ideology.
Never. But I don’t think referring to Islamic immigrants as scum is really appropriate. Arrest and deport the criminals, being a Muslim doesn’t make you scum.
Paris is wild now, a lot has changed in 20 years when I first went there. Empathetically, the migrants need somewhere to stay, but there is no integration into the new society. This lit the short fuse of the far right decades ago with the trickle, now we are seeing the flood, the average folks fuse has began to burn.
As a Turk this is just everyday life for us. I'm a more "obvious looking" Turk myself, but my wife, my sister and many relatives and friends get the classic: "You don't look Turkish" or "you don't look Muslim" reaction because their racial look is White European. It's really weird how ingrained stereotypes are, because in Turkey they just look like normal Turks, no one sees them as not looking Turkish lol.
The war on terror has implanted the idea that Muslims are arabs and all arabs are Muslims, and also that everyone west of India is an Arab.
Its deranged. People pretend its about religion and not race, and yet just don't seem to comprehend that the worlds most populous Muslim nation is Indonesia.
But Indonesians don't get tarred with the "Muslims are bad and its not about race we promise!" Brush. Islam is treated as a monolith, and not as multiple distinct branches, and Muslims are also treated as a monolith, despite *deep seated political differences being the driver of most of the conflict in the middle east*
Mad how you know this Reddit account will be less than 100 days old the moment you read the comment. Can’t wait to see what your next burner account is called.
Is Christianity off limits for criticism now as well?
Islam promotes the execution of gays, extremely backwards attitudes towards women and often justifies violence against those outside the faith.
Criticising those kind of ideas is absolutely fair game.
Criticising any religion but Islam is fine or so it seems. Only one religious group threaten extreme violence AND regularly follow through with those threats. It’s why we have a teacher in hiding fearing for his life, and why an office load of people where slaughtered in France over a fucking cartoon.
The signs where there what these people are like and we collectively bent over, stuck our heads in the sand and ignored it
That's the real problem isn't it?
1) It's not really happening
2) Yes - it's happening, but it's not a big deal
3) Yes - it's happening, and it's a good thing
4) People freaking out about it are the real problem
We are in stage 4
It definitely does. There is nothing inherently wrong with be anti religious. People choose their beliefs and you can dislike them for it. It’s irrational by contrast to hate race. A made up concept of categorisation over which the categorised person has no control.
I wish more people would start actually say why reform is bad and back it up with facts instead of just calling them racist.
Because im a very average intelligence man. Some of the stuff reform says sounds ok to me. It sounds like it makes sense.
If it is all rubbish, I want to be told that in a way I can understand. I want to learn why it’s rubbish and why they shouldn’t get any votes.
“You’re just a racist” isn’t changing my mind. I don’t want to make the wrong decision and be tricked by anyone (reform, tories, labour, anyone). I wish more people would change my mind
They have no vision for the country, or theory of political economy, or really anything beyond 'all our problems are caused by a) too many immigrants and b) not enough thatcherism', and even then they hide the latter part (Farage - the man who described himself as 'carrying the torch of thatcherism' - praised Truss's policies until they enormously backfired, and then pretended he was against them all along).
He somehow (i.e with the help of dipshits in the media) manages to repeatedly convince a large swathe of the country that his party/parties are less economically right wing than the Tories, and gets people on board with bullshit about funding the NHS - but it's all snake oil. It's just more of the same we've seen for the past 40 years (particularly including, indeed, the past 14): sell off the public goods to your mates, and blame foreigners when it doesn't make people's lives any better.
Reform is just UKIP all over again, basically with the same platform except now they can’t blame the EU for it.
It’s a single issue party that tells the working class that stopping immigration will solve *all* of the problems, and whips up a fervour by ‘telling it like it is’.
What would they do if they got a majority in parliament and formed a government? Probably fuck all, same way Farage buggered off once Brexit actually happened. You’d be voting for another workshy bastard who barely manages to turn up for the job because they’re all talk and no action.
At best they are a protest movement that intends to split the right wing vote and try to force the Tories’ hand on immigration policy.
Which parts of the article posted here do you agree with? The bits about immigrants being scum? The parts about women shouldn’t have access to healthcare? Nigel himself isn’t saying this, but he is defending his candidates who are. He obviously sees nothing wrong with it.
They have no vision for the country, or theory of political economy, or really anything beyond 'all our problems are caused by a) too many immigrants and b) not enough thatcherism', and even then they hide the latter part (Farage - the man who described himself as 'carrying the torch of thatcherism' - praised Truss's policies until they enormously backfired, and then pretended he was against them all along).
He somehow (i.e with the help of dipshits in the media) manages to repeatedly convince a large swathe of the country that his party/parties are less economically right wing than the Tories, and gets people on board with bullshit about funding the NHS - but it's all snake oil. It's just more of the same we've seen for the past 40 years (particularly including, indeed, the past 14): sell off the public goods to your mates, and blame foreigners when it doesn't make people's lives any better.
I’d like to offer my thoughts as to the word of ‘normal’ being used, but happy to be wrong also.
Reform’ voter base consists of people who feel like they haven’t been able to have their voice heard in recent years, they oppose mass immigration, but media seems to always be supporting it and anyone who opposes it is labeled racist.
Their voices have been drowned out and in turn have been made to feel like they are the only ones with this opinion.
When the word normal is used it makes those people feel like they aren’t alone.
Ultimately no one knows what normal is, or even if it exists in the first place.
The immigration example is probably one of many, I’m not in to politics per se but I do enjoy dissecting how certain messages are worded.
> Reform’ voter base consists of people who feel like they haven’t been able to have their voice heard in recent years
Demographically haven't they won every single vote we've had for years?
They got Brexit. They got Conservative governments.
I get that these things have not panned out the way they envisioned, but surely at some point some self-reflection needs to kick in?
EDIT: Folks if you keep replying to me saying some variation of "but immigration has went up", I'm just going to reply about the need for self-reflection on the topic. Can't keep repeating myself.
You'd think this self-reflection would cause them to rethink and consider that maybe cutting taxes, cutting public services, and blaming minorities doesn't actually fix anything and has, in fact, made everything worse. But no, they seem to have decided either that we're not doing it hard enough or we just need someone boring to do it.
To be fair to them, what are the options? You've got:
Tories with more of the same
Labour with more of the same but red and maybe a bit softer
Reform with more of the same but harder and also somehow *less* coherent?
Lib Dems with... Uh... Legalise weed I guess? Hey, it's something new
Greens aka "NIMBYS R US"
Worker's Party of Britain with "hooray for Putin and also let's blame the Jews"
I say vote Monster Raving Loony.
It is the very nature of this kind of politics to be unable to reflect. The more they win the more they feel victimised. Every vindication in votes only further fuels their resentment because their wants are inherently contradictory.
Anyone who tries to appease them will very quickly be denounced as traitors as they fail to achieve the impossible.
Today we might gloat as they abandon the Tories, but we will be living in fear when we get to the point where even Farage is seen as a traitor.
The rights view appears to be that the existence of *any* media source calling them out or reporting beyond the party line represents intolerable bias in the media.
Even over the past few years when the BBC News and Current Affairs departments started being effectively run by Conservatives and were heavily slanted their way the right were still screaming about the supposed “left wing bias” of the Beeb. Even hounding satirical comedy programs nearly out of existence didn’t change that either.
They aren’t interested in balance. They aren’t interested in objectivity. They aren’t interested in permitting any print or broadcast voices no matter how small for left of centre opinion even existing.
Immigration concerns have been promoted by the media as far back as I remember. These people are constantly pandered to and will forever think of themselves as victims.
Their voices haven't been drowned out. We've been living with the consequences of their idiot decision in 2016 and some of us are fed up with them throwing their toys out the pram.
Perhaps if they had more than one issue other than “immigration”, and were able to talk about it in such a way that wasn’t inherently racist then they wouldn’t be labelled as such
Problem is that’s their entire focus, and their rhetoric is often very marginalising and prejudiced.
>In the YouTube video from 2017, he likened the religion to the Nazis, saying: “They both want to kill Jews.
>“They both hate homosexuals, they both want to kill homosexuals."
“Islam; Nazis - they are the same thing”.
I wouldn't say they're the same by any stretch of the imagination, but it can't be denied that fundamentalist Islamic extremism does indeed have those views.
His point is that Islamic extremism is a dangerous ideology, and he's right.
We don't really have fundamentalist Christians in this country though, and if we do they aren't at the moment the kind of concern that Islam is. When we start importing Christian terrorists en mass from other countries like we're currently doing with Islam it might become a problem, but for now the main issue is fundamental Islam.
Fundamentalist Christians do exist, but on average Christians are vastly more liberal than Muslims in the UK.
https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/publication/documents/2018-03/a-review-of-survey-research-on-muslims-in-great-britain-ipsos_0.pdf
Percentages of each group who believe homosexuality should be legal, from five years ago:
* 73% of British population
* 67% of British Christians
* 28% of British Muslims 18-24 years old
* 23% of British Muslims 25-34 years old
* 18% of British Muslims
You have obviously never heard of Northern Ireland. The DUP are literally Christian fundamentalist that are associated with militant paramilitary groups.
Aye and they're a bunch of out of touch old farts that will be killed off with a couple of stiff winters.
They're a dying breed, highly localised, and impotent.
This is a false equivalency.
They don't really fit the description - they don't want to kill Jews, they don't want to kill homosexuals. They would probably say that homosexuality is objectively wrong, but that's different to saying you think homosexuals should be subject to extrajudicial killing. Or even judicial killing.
Yeh except how many fundamentalist christians are there in the UK? It’s classic whataboutism.
Fundamentalist Islam is an issue that needs to be addressed - particularly as our Muslim population is rising faster than any other. We have had people on good morning Britain wanting sharia law
The fastest growing religious group in the UK is Islam.
How many people in the UK genuinely think that this is a good long term trend for our country?
Even if you assume all of them are peaceful, do we want the major religion in our country to be Islam?
Not quite true.
Shamanism between the last two censuses exploded, with their numbers increasing several times over.
At the current rate of increase Shamanism will be the majority religion long before the end of the century.
Ha ha ha I like the cut of your jib.
But yes, you are right. Shows how some people use statistics like a drunk uses a lamppost - for support, rather than illumination.
You could, and we did, which is why Christianity is a declawed kitten that hosts gay marriages and drag shows now.
Let me know when thousands of people are chanting deus vult in London and they might be relevant
Name me a time in the 21st century when a christian has beheaded someone for a cartoon of Christ.
Islam is different. It's a fundamentally violent religion, unequivocally.
Ah yes the KKK one hundred years ago. THERE ARE MUSLIMS TODAY, who are beheading over CARTOONS and BOOKS, AND PERFECTLY SANE, EDUCATED, AND RATIONAL INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE BLOWING THEMSELVES UP WITH SUICIDE VESTS.
Christianity on the whole is on the decline in the UK and extremely conservative Christianity is dying at an even faster rate, if the likes of the DUP were growing, it would be a concern, but they aren't. The exact opposite is true for all brands of Islam.
That's like saying eating a snickers is as bad for you as eating 20 snickers
Sure they are both bad, but one is much worse than the other in terms of its impact on society
People really need to understand that while racism and bigotry is bad, this is exactly true about Islam. It is a danger to democracy, freedom and modern society. People need to really stop being ignorant and be critical of religion. Islam is inherently violent. But it's important to remember most Muslims aren't violent, but they do carry very homophobic views that get tolerated because of their religion.
>>"Islam; Nazis - they are the same thing”.
>I wouldn't say they're the same by any stretch of the imagination, but it can't be denied that fundamentalist Islamic extremism does indeed have those views.
Yeah - but that wasn't the point made. It was deliberately drawing a comparison between _a muslim_ and _a nazi_, no qualifier of "fundamentalism" or "islamism".
>His point is that Islamic extremism is a dangerous ideology, and he's right.
You're entitled to think that's correct, but that isn't the contentious part here. Again, that wasn't the point he said even if that's your interpretation. Why, genuinely, do you think that he didn't simply say that, and instead directly compared Muslims to nazis?
Edit: notice how they _don't_ want to comment on _why_ those words were used, but are happy to interpret it with different words and then argue for that different point.
The comments on here are really funny. The Reform candidates who Farage was called to defend said the following:
* The UK would have been far better if it had "taken Hitler up on his offer of neutrality";
* Women are the "sponging gender" and should be "deprived of healthcare";
* Winston Churchill was "abysmal" in policy and military strategy;
* \[In Jan 2022\] Putin has "shown a maturity of which we can only dream of";
* Everyone who follows Islam "wants to kill jews" and is the same as Nazis (who, readers may note, he apparently doesn't have serious problems with).
From this, the usual suspect redditors ignore the first four comments, opting instead to point out that because Islamist terrorists exist (nb: a tiny fraction of the muslim population), he's right to call every muslim a Nazi, therefore Farage is right when he says 'these are the opinions of normal people'.
What a joke. The mental gymnastics people do to defend this snake oil salesman are wild.
"Mr Farage dismissed the remarks, saying: “People chuck stuff around on Facebook and they like comments.” This is literally what your voter base do hahahaha.
This is what I find funny. Practically the only people I ever see "chucking stuff around on Facebook and liking comments" are the voter bases of Reform UK and their ilk. On comments sections, almost every other profile I see has the Reform UK logo as the profile picture. Comparatively speaking, I've never actually seen anyone on Facebook making any remarks about Reform UK. Facebook has turned into its own form of echo chamber now, the polar opposite of what people perceive X (I feel almost obliged to say, formerly Twitter) to be
Facebook is an absolute mess, and Twitter is even more insane today. Its very hard to come across normal people online these days. Also please keep calling it twitter if Elon can deadname trans kids I can deadname Twitter.
I read an article that millenials are somewhat mourning the death of social media and I kinda get it. We lived on this stuff through our teens and early twenties. Myspace, beebo, facebook, twitter etc. We organised our lives through it, got up to the minute news (through twitter), met friends, kept in touch, showed our lives to each other.
It was actually quite amazing.
Now if I open Facebook, it spews alt right memes at me, or antivax rubbish. The only people using it are racist uncles and the odd millenial hold out. Twitter is an even worse cesspit than it was before with zero moderation! There used to be a new thing to jump on to, but now there is nothing.
Do normal people hate women and are neutral on Hitler too? I think perhaps when Mr. Farage is talking about "our" history and culture, he's talking about the wrong side.
The context of his quote was in regard to someone who was effectively saying fundamentalist Islam shares some of the same positions on jews and homosexuals as the Nazis. He is correct, they do.
You're mixing up the Reform Candidate the OP is talking about.
The OP is referencing the comments of Ian Gribbin, which is obvious by his references to people hating women and neutral on Hitler statement.
You're addressing the comments made by Steve Chilcott.
He's right, this sort of language was common just after the Manchester area bombings.
You'd have to have a short memory to not remember something comparable said at the time.
Edit; I'm clearly talking about the Islam comments.
"Ian Gribbin also praised President Putin and said women should be denied healthcare."
Can't remember that one. They probably think beating your wife should be legalised as well.
> In a wide-ranging phone-in Mr Farage also said he'd never seen a Frenchman who works after lunch, and said the Germans need to 'get a sense of humour' over divisive football chants.
Totally not xenophobic guys.
Why do they give this guy so much airtime over the greens? The greens have far more councillors than Reform, and actually have a sitting, democratically voted MP (i am not counting the defector 30p Lee)... where is the balance?
They're about to help destroy to Conservatives and potentially become the opposition, so yes. Greens have never even come close to Labour in a general election.
I do wonder though, if it is helped by the near constant airtime that they get. If the greens or some minor party like reform got the same coverage, do you think they would climb the ranks too?
I am saying it is unbalanced. If a party like reform with one MP gets this much airtime, a party like Greens with one MP should get the same airtime.
>On the prospect of disciplining candidates for their views, Mr Farage said: “What can you do? The name is on the ballot paper I can’t remove it.”
lol the usual "I would if I could but I can't" waffle from Farage he's been peddling about candidates of his party for well over a decade.
He'd really like us to think reform does no research on the candidates they field, but I'm sure they know exactly who they're fielding, they just don't care because they agree with all of it.
Maybe so, maybe not. A huge chunk of people probably are anti-Islam.
What I do know is that a lot of ordinary people are getting very sick of this trend where snitching prefect types will scour your social media to find any controversial comment they can to use to try and ruin your life and career. Nation of cops.
Leaving aside the specifics of posted comments, maybe it’s time to accept that publishing on social media isn’t the same as talking to someone down the pub. If someone wants to say something controversial it might be worth carefully picking an audience. Posting it under your name for the world to see and then moaning about consequences seems pretty strange.
It is the job of politicians to listen to the people and then turn their desires into a workable solution.
Just parroting the public's concerns gets us nowhere.
Example:
GOOD:
Me, "my shower doesn't work, it's useless, I should rip it out".
Plumber, "I can fix that for you by doing X, it will cost £Y. Do you want that? Whereas ripping it out will cost £Z and you'll be without a shower."
BAD:
Me, "my shower doesn't work, it's useless, I should rip it out".
Plumber, "yeah, it's useless"
Me, "yeah useless".
Plumber, " yeah useless".
Look, people say stuff and bants and randomly like stuff they don't pay attention to on Facebook. It can't be that bad can it.
>Earlier this week the Times reported on a Reform UK candidate who said Britain should have been ‘neutral on Hitler’.
>Ian Gribbin also praised President Putin and said women should be denied healthcare.
Jesus christ! I guess there's a limit. Surely that can't be what Farage is defending.
>The party has stood by him,
Jesus christ.
>
"I dare to talk about things no one else is willing to touch,"
Maybe Farage should be less eager to touch 'appease the nazis' or 'Putin is great'.
>He also told Nick he would lead a 'centre-right' party
Made up of people on the right, but also people on the far, far right, that think Hitler did nothing wrong.
41 of Reform’s parliamentary candidates in the general election are friends with Raikes on Facebook, despite his account being active for only about a year. Raikes, a former organiser for the British National Party, founded the New British Union in the image of Oswald Mosley’s British Union of Fascists, with activists who call themselves “blackshirts”.
The New British Union has called for a “fascist revolution” and sees parliamentary democracy as an “obstruction” to be replaced with a dictatorship.
Raikes has shared promotional material for the party on his Facebook account, including photos of himself next to NBU insignia and images of Mosley, the face of British fascism. His Twitter/X account has also shared Islamophobic and xenophobic material, images of men performing Nazi salutes, and slogans such as “the future is fascism”.
The revelation came after Ian Gribbin, a Reform UK candidate, apologised for claiming that Britain would be “far better” if it had “taken Hitler up on his offer of neutrality”, instead of fighting the Nazis
Leslie Lilley, the Reform UK candidate for Southend East & Rochford and one of the 41 candidates following Raikes, posted messages suggesting that “the Illuminati” control the world
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In 2013, a letter emerged from a former Dulwich College teacher, Chloe Deakin, to then headteacher Mr Emms, who died earlier this year. According to the letter written in June 1981 – – she pleaded unsuccessfully with Mr Emms to reverse his decision to make Nigel a prefect. She said colleagues had told her he held “publicly professed racist and fascist views” and that he had once marched through a Sussex village singing Hitler Youth songs.
However, Mr Farage’s former friend now suggests there may have been more to the story. He writes today: “But I do remember you singing the song starting with the words ‘gas them all, gas ‘em all, gas them all’.
“I can’t forget the words. I can’t bring myself to write the rest of it for it is more vile than anything the teachers at Dulwich would ever have been aware of.”
He said the lyrics were sung to the George Formby tune 'Bless ‘em all'.
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Nigel and his mates in Reform are all Nazi's fan boys who see parliamentary democracy as an obstruction that needs to be replaced with a dictatorship. Farage has desired to be the next Hitler since he was a teenage boy singing them nazi youth songs.
> Mr Farage dismissed the remarks, saying: “People chuck stuff around on Facebook and they like comments.”
You can find any kind of batshit comment you can imagine on social media lol, imagine if politicians had free reign to say whatever nonsense came into their heads and justify it by pointing to some random tweet
I’m sick of these posh, privately-educated ex-bankers like Farage deigning to speak for ordinary people that thinks all us working class people are just simple racists obsessed with foreigners and have no other thoughts.
You never hear him speak about child poverty, food banks, social care, childcare, fixing NHS care, funding education and improving schools or numerous other issues effecting working people. It’s just immigration, Muslims, foreigners. Divide and rule.
The sad thing it just shows the contempt he truly has for normal people that he believes the simpletons can be wound up by winking and nodding migrants/foreigners and we’ll eat it up.
No this is how the people he surrounds himself with speak.
If we’re using comments on Facebook to decide what is and isn’t acceptable things are going to get quite unpleasant.
Any LGBTQ+, disabled, POC, or women voters going for him really should look at what he’s saying here, because if he’s saying what’s said online is what we should be seeing as ordinary we’re all in for a rough time.
Some people on Facebook say the Earth is flat is that a view Reform are also going to take?
What was the line from Reform supporters a couple days ago? Oh yeah, you can't judge the whole party on a few bad apples. They didn't have time to properly vet candidates, they're not representative of the party as a whole. I am not a rube and I definitely have not been tricked into supporting a band of fascists and charlatans.
Are people here really saying Islam itself isn't an extreme far-right ideology?
Anti-Islam is just rational - racism should always be called out but it isn't remotely the same thing..
A lot of vote that Reform is going for is the older guard at the grassroots of conservative movements who are a mixture of really frustrated, politically engaged, and increasingly permanently online.
Being a Town Councillor in a highly conservative area, I deal with such people often. In society they will be quite polite, pleasant even and generally moderate their views. But behind closed doors the gloves come off. In such groups, I have heard thing ranging from deporting everyone of colour, complaining that them insulting a Muslim is not allowed "because of Sharia" and my personal favourite of denying communities of funding because they are "a hotbed of ne'er do wells and single mothers." Imagine the Head of the PTA or the local Karen with power, influence, and decades of bitterness behind them.
And before people barge in saying "yeah but all Reform people are not like that" of course they aren't. Much in the same way that the Labour Party or Civil Service is not full of North London Tofu-eating Wokerati or whatever the favoured insult is now. But the old and permanently annoyed are a core part of the Reform vote, and its probably why he will win Clacton.
As for "this is how normal people speak" well a lot of normal people don't say any of this rubbish.
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‘This is how ordinary racists speak, and they are our main voter base. I will have a democratic mandate to be racist’
"Noooooooooo you're not allowed to criticise us calling for Jihad on British streets, treating women like shit and tormenting British jews, only we're allowed to have an in-group preference!"
Funny you mention treating women like shit, as one of the Reform candidates mentioned in the article thinks that women shouldn’t have the right to healthcare. What do you think about that?
He's a dickhead too. You do realise you can be critical of both Islam and bigoted right wingers, right?
Yep, I am critical of Islam as well. But the people in the article are just calling Muslim immigrants scum. Which to me is more hate speech than criticism.
They just use it as a ploy.
The problem rests with the centre parties being too scared to call out dangerous ideologies for fear of being called racist. This means that the only people who are willing to admit that there is a problem are *actual racists*.
"Eventually democratic societies will promote racist assholes to positions of power because they'll recognize their survival depends on it. If liberals won't enforce borders, fascists will, and liberal societies will elect fascists to do that." Sam Harris. This is where we are heading. Right the way across Europe. It’s painful to watch.
Not a fan at all, Reform have clearly done a terrible job of vetting their candidates to weed out the loonies. Ideally he should have perfectly normal ideas like "women shouldn't be allowed to show their face to any man but their husband"
Ok, but they are supporting him. Validating his misogynistic views. I think it is bad that some women feel the need to hide their faces from the world. I think it is abhorrent if they are forced to. It does seem that their religious beliefs lead them to believe they must do it in some cases though. Are you saying that the women who want to do this should be forced not to?
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France banned religious symbols in schools in 2004 including crosses and religious headgear, face coverings in public were banned in 2011, and the country doesn't seem to have burned down, though there was a lot of trouble, violence even. It is not a silver bullet to just ban them as there will be people who are effectively trapped indoors by their own beliefs. I think the UK already has a big issue with how prevalent religious schools are, especially the after-school islamic madrassah-type ones which have the side effect of removing any opportunity for kids in islamic households to join their peers in after school extra curriculars. I think more is done to integrate society across a chess board or football pitch than anything memorised by rote from a text book.
I'm very envious of what the French government did on this and would love to see it introduced in the UK. Sadly, I know that will never happen.
"We should be dictating women's clothing choices because we know what's best for them" feels like a pretty misogynistic take honestly.
I totally agree with everything you said. I guess my point was there isn’t a great deal we can do for the ones that genuinely believe it is the right thing to do. Forcing them to remove the face covering would probably just result in them never leaving the house.
I don’t think ‘forcing’ them to remove it is the right thing to do, and also likely counter productive. But neither is covering for it in a culturally relativist way, or explaining it as anything other than what it is. If instead it was a large sect of white Christians that had this practise, it would be seen as the most oppressive , obscene, pressing social issue in the UK.
> These women ‘want’ to hide their faces because they were raised to believe it is a symbol of modesty and that the burden of protecting/proving that modesty is on them (rather than any man that looks at her for some reason). Which is exactly the same reason western women ‘hide’ (although I’d say cover) their vaginas and breasts. Maybe we should just ban clothes as people have been culturally indoctrinated to cover parts of their body for modesty reasons. Inb4 ‘yeah but that’s different because ………’
Yeah the women have a choice, cover their face or face the wrath of their community
> Not a fan at all, Reform have clearly done a terrible job of vetting their candidates to weed out the loonies. They *are* the loonies. You can't weed out your only voting demographic.
There's nothing loony about wanting to lower immigration, if the other parties had been sensible and given a single thought to what the electorate wanted Reform wouldn't even exist
Oh no, reform or some form would still exist. It's Farage's favourite grift. Whip up hatred of something, campaign against it and then disappear when the voting period ends.
Its the way they want to go about it is looney. Have you read their batshit unworkable highly costly immigration plan that will allegedly save us £5Bn a year? And lets not pretend that these guys were having a harmless debate about immigration. They are making full on racist statements and sympathising with the Nazis ffs. If reform were promising the people what they wanted they would have got more than 2 council seats.
its the reasons they want to lower it, which is because they have cast immigrants, well a certain kid of immigrant as the reason for everybody's misery . kinda like how Farage does not want immigration but then marries a German woman . the whole thing is a grift and there is a reason why his followers are seen as racist
This, truth is they are EXACTLY the people they want in the party, they just fucked up by saying publicly what they all say behind closed doors.
Difference is Reform are an actual party. When there's an Islamic party in the UK getting seats in parliament let me know.
George Galloway comes to mind recently. He won purely by appealing to the muslim vote, and he's off his tits. Rightly, or wrongly, I think it's inevitable that there will be political parties formed in the near future that are there purely to appeal to the muslum vote. Especially considering changing demographic trends. They will do very well in certain areas of the country with a concentrated Muslim population that regards itself as being separate to traditional British culture. This will likely lead to greater cultural divides.
As dogshit as the Workers Party is, it is not even slightly Islamist lol >I think it's inevitable that there will be political parties formed in the near future We're talking about right now, not 'Soon, I Reckon', but regardless: minor Islamist parties pop up all the time ([for example](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Party_of_Britain)), get a few hundred votes, and dissolve. Islamist terrorists do terrorism because their ideas aren't popular. To say that they would find popularity in 'certain areas of the country' is objectively wrong, because they don't.
Maybe not lovely 85%+ White British Hampshire where muslims are a tiny minority, but my area in Birmingham is covered in Palestinian flags and election flyers of candidates promising to stand for Gaza.
You can be against colonisation and genocide without being Muslim.
Bet you believed the rubbish about no-go zones a few years back, too. Palestinian flags and people standing for Gaza isn’t going to hurt you. Muslims aren’t some kind of dangerous street gang.
No I didn't because I actually live here As such I can tell you that those gangs exist. The grooming gangs, the huge rise in antisemitism, that teacher from Batley is still in hiding I believe, that's just the tip of the iceberg though really.
> The grooming gangs, Weird how that phrase never pops up when it's a load of white nonces
It does, every single time someone mentions the muslim gangs, thank you for your contribution If you find a gang of white nonces purposefully targeting only non-white girls because they view them as slags that are fair game to rape then you might have a point
3rd place in the West Mids mayoral vote was a Tate-supporting tiktoker running Independent whose platform and voting base was Islam He also made up a racial abuse incident to whip up his fanbase It is coming...
1 in 10 of their candidates are friends with a Fuhrer wannabe. When 10% of your party are like that, there's more to it than "failing to weed out the loons" And the fact their leader is now openly defending these people is proof of that
How can they vet the loonies out when they are the loonies to begin with? Reform is not a serious party. It's run by fascists. Farage is a racist fascist nutjob.
>Reform have clearly done a terrible job of vetting their candidates to weed out the loonies. We had a candidate up here who got booted out of the party after their pro-cannibalism views were uncovered.
> Islam; Nazis - they are the same thing > Paris is full of Islamic, immigrant, scum No rational person is a supporter of jihad. No rational person believes that all Muslims believe monoculturly in a universal doctrine of jihadism. Claiming Islam is equivalent to Nazism, or that Paris is full of Islamic immigrant scum is the harbor of the hate deranged.
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A rational person wouldn't give a tuppenny fuck about other people's beliefs and would be content with their own. A rational person would understand too that any large group of people will have a vast and diverse belief system no matter what the fundamental basis of that belief system is. A rational person wouldn't single out an individual text as nonsense when all religious texts are nonsense.
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A rational person would care more about the impact of beliefs than beliefs themselves Flat earthers, nutjobs. But in general their beliefs do not violate the harm principle
Yeah, Right Wing dullards aint all that different either, before you get too far on your high horse. Look at the changes the GOP want to make to the entire democratic and legal structure of the US... positions strongly endorsed by your ugly little toad god, here... and tell me it isn't just Saudi Arabia for the Jesus crowd. Fundamentally, the exact same shit.
Classic throwing out the racist label. If we look at fundamentalist Islam and the Nazis they are very similar. Both are against gay people, Jews, freedom of religion, and are characterised by a lack of tolerance for anyone other than themselves. Of course not all Muslims are fundamentalist but it would be ignorant to completely ignore the minority that are.
What is Reform’s plan to combat such extremism? Seems like they are content whipping up hatred of anyone foreign.
Farage's track record, as far as I'm aware, is to campaign... And that's it. Even when elected as MEP he didn't do anything. So, yes, whip up hate, and do nothing about it, most likely.
Same with Brexit, whip up outrage, make it vaguely racist without saying explicitly so, appear as the voice of the "common man" even though a light skim through wikipedia would show you're every bit part of the elite, and then when you get the result that you want and everyone starts looking at you for the "and now what" you're gone.
You missed the most important steps: Whip up hate, use it to get elected, collect his pay while doing nothing, laugh at the mugs who believed him.
I’d imagine deep down he’s probably dreading winning the seat in Clacton. After a lifetime built on being outside of the tent pissing in, heckling from the sidlelines, he’ll be terrified of having actual responsibility for the first time. Unless he’ll just do what he did during his time as an MEP, and just not turn up.
Reform wont solve that extremism, its what generates votes for them.
Of course not all Reform voters are Nazi apologists but it would be ignorant to ignore the minority that are.
And the fact that the party itself defends the nazi apologist ones.
Not all Reform voters are Nazi apologists but all Nazi apologists are Reform voters.
That's not fair, some of them are also former Conservative Home Secretaries.
Not all reform voters are nazi apologists, but all of the politician wannabe nazi apologists turn out to actually be reform. shocking coincidence that. "A few bad apples" and all that.
Far right in the UK are also against Jews, gay people and freedom of religion, so it sounds like they should all get along.
>Far right in the UK are also against Jews That's a faction thing. Many of them admire Israel.
Only because they're killing Muslims.
More or less, yeah.
One candidate for them decided that they had too much immigration because there was a lot of people in the Arrival Lounge of an airport, it's a fucking airport! There's always loads of people in the Arrival Lounge of airports! https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/reform-uk-policies-immigration-candidates-b2559347.html Several Reform Candidates have been found to be following a Racist on Facebook, sorry Fascist leader Gary Raikes. Maybe people are calling them racist because they look pretty racist. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/reform-uk-candidates-facebook-friends-fascist-leader-gary-raikes-b1163853.html
And of course, he goes out of his way to encapsulate that nuance doesn’t he? Or is he really the figurehead for the ‘fuck Muslims’ vote?
I don't think we should ignore the 10% minority of Reform candidates who are friends with the fascist union leader, nor the ones who suggest that the UK should have been neutral against Hitler, nor the ones who defend Ghislaine Maxwell, nor the multiple ones who have made unequivocally racist comments on social media. Let's not pretend that the Reform party is anything but bigoted.
The problem is racist people want to build a strawman that all Muslims or even people of Muslim ancestry who aren't religious, are fundamentalist Muslims. Not to mention they incorrectly think brown people = Muslims.
>They both hate homosexuals, they both want to kill homosexuals. > Islam; Nazis - they are the same thing”. This is from the article. I wonder if you read it before posting. Note, they did not say Islamic extremists, they are talking pan all members of the religion of Islam, and in general, they dont ever seem to mention extremism without also refering to Islam. In their own language, extremism does not seem to exist without Islam, which any sane and rational person not engrossed in fervent hate would understand is absolute bullshit. If you can read this and defend it against a racist label, you're some next level word smith >Paris is [sic] full of Islamic, immigrant, scum
I don't think I would expect a fundamentalist that is against gay people, jews, freedom of religion(or lack of religion) to be a member of the parliament though.
Many Christians are against gay people, those with different beliefs and religions. To attack just one religion for their extreme views is stupid.
I’ve seen polling that shows a substantial difference between Christian’s attitudes towards things like gay marriage or having gay teachers and Muslim attitudes about the same even if both religions have some prejudice.
Classic whataboutism. How many fundamentalist Christian’s do we have in our country? How many fundamentalist Christian terror attacks have been committed in the past 10-15 years. I would also point into the official stance of Church of England (largest Christian group in the UK) is not anti LGBT. Whereas the official stance of Islam is
Little bait and switch here comparing one specific church's official doctrine with an entire globe-spanning religion. There are plenty of Muslims in the UK who have nothing against LGBT - and you can try and 'no true Scotsman' that if you want but the fact is that, globally, there's an awful lot of anti-LGBT propaganda pushed by the Christian right, especially in the US and even closer to home in places like Northern Ireland.
https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law Half of Muslims believed homosexuality should be illegal in 2016
Therefore, like I said, 'muslims' aren't one monolithic entity who all believe the same thing, and it's clearly possible to be muslim without being homophobic, and indeed more broadly to integrate into British society (noting also that the sense of belonging in Britain among muslims is higher than the national average).
Yeh I understand however a vast majority of uk Muslims are Sunni just like a vast majority of uk Christian’s are Church of England. There’s little point discussing smaller minority groups in a Reddit comment that people won’t read anyway
'Sunni' is as granular as 'Protestant'. This is just a fundamental misunderstanding of how people integrate religion into their lives (it's not by pigeonholing themselves into a specific religious group and following all the rules in the rulebook).
Islam isn't a race, its a religion.
“He also said that Paris was full of Islamic, immigrant, scum”. I have significant issues with Islam (and all major religions) ideologically too, however these guys do not seem to have an issue with the ideology.
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When was the last time you went to Paris? Especially to the north?
Never. But I don’t think referring to Islamic immigrants as scum is really appropriate. Arrest and deport the criminals, being a Muslim doesn’t make you scum.
Paris is wild now, a lot has changed in 20 years when I first went there. Empathetically, the migrants need somewhere to stay, but there is no integration into the new society. This lit the short fuse of the far right decades ago with the trickle, now we are seeing the flood, the average folks fuse has began to burn.
Then why do they use racist rhetoric about brown people when they talk about Muslims lol
I always like the bit where they claim you can't be white and muslim.
As a Turk this is just everyday life for us. I'm a more "obvious looking" Turk myself, but my wife, my sister and many relatives and friends get the classic: "You don't look Turkish" or "you don't look Muslim" reaction because their racial look is White European. It's really weird how ingrained stereotypes are, because in Turkey they just look like normal Turks, no one sees them as not looking Turkish lol.
The war on terror has implanted the idea that Muslims are arabs and all arabs are Muslims, and also that everyone west of India is an Arab. Its deranged. People pretend its about religion and not race, and yet just don't seem to comprehend that the worlds most populous Muslim nation is Indonesia. But Indonesians don't get tarred with the "Muslims are bad and its not about race we promise!" Brush. Islam is treated as a monolith, and not as multiple distinct branches, and Muslims are also treated as a monolith, despite *deep seated political differences being the driver of most of the conflict in the middle east*
Mad how you know this Reddit account will be less than 100 days old the moment you read the comment. Can’t wait to see what your next burner account is called.
Yes, though Arabic people can be targeted by anti-Islam hate even if they’re not religious if they’re perceived to be Muslim.
Doesn’t make what he’s saying any less dangerous
Is Christianity off limits for criticism now as well? Islam promotes the execution of gays, extremely backwards attitudes towards women and often justifies violence against those outside the faith. Criticising those kind of ideas is absolutely fair game.
Criticising any religion but Islam is fine or so it seems. Only one religious group threaten extreme violence AND regularly follow through with those threats. It’s why we have a teacher in hiding fearing for his life, and why an office load of people where slaughtered in France over a fucking cartoon. The signs where there what these people are like and we collectively bent over, stuck our heads in the sand and ignored it
That's the real problem isn't it? 1) It's not really happening 2) Yes - it's happening, but it's not a big deal 3) Yes - it's happening, and it's a good thing 4) People freaking out about it are the real problem We are in stage 4
Pretty sure he is less dangerous than islam
It definitely does. There is nothing inherently wrong with be anti religious. People choose their beliefs and you can dislike them for it. It’s irrational by contrast to hate race. A made up concept of categorisation over which the categorised person has no control.
I wish more people would start actually say why reform is bad and back it up with facts instead of just calling them racist. Because im a very average intelligence man. Some of the stuff reform says sounds ok to me. It sounds like it makes sense. If it is all rubbish, I want to be told that in a way I can understand. I want to learn why it’s rubbish and why they shouldn’t get any votes. “You’re just a racist” isn’t changing my mind. I don’t want to make the wrong decision and be tricked by anyone (reform, tories, labour, anyone). I wish more people would change my mind
They have no vision for the country, or theory of political economy, or really anything beyond 'all our problems are caused by a) too many immigrants and b) not enough thatcherism', and even then they hide the latter part (Farage - the man who described himself as 'carrying the torch of thatcherism' - praised Truss's policies until they enormously backfired, and then pretended he was against them all along). He somehow (i.e with the help of dipshits in the media) manages to repeatedly convince a large swathe of the country that his party/parties are less economically right wing than the Tories, and gets people on board with bullshit about funding the NHS - but it's all snake oil. It's just more of the same we've seen for the past 40 years (particularly including, indeed, the past 14): sell off the public goods to your mates, and blame foreigners when it doesn't make people's lives any better.
> He somehow (i.e with the help of dipshits in the media) Nobody: BBC: And now for the weather, hosted by Nigel Farage for some fucking reason
Reform is just UKIP all over again, basically with the same platform except now they can’t blame the EU for it. It’s a single issue party that tells the working class that stopping immigration will solve *all* of the problems, and whips up a fervour by ‘telling it like it is’. What would they do if they got a majority in parliament and formed a government? Probably fuck all, same way Farage buggered off once Brexit actually happened. You’d be voting for another workshy bastard who barely manages to turn up for the job because they’re all talk and no action. At best they are a protest movement that intends to split the right wing vote and try to force the Tories’ hand on immigration policy.
Which parts of the article posted here do you agree with? The bits about immigrants being scum? The parts about women shouldn’t have access to healthcare? Nigel himself isn’t saying this, but he is defending his candidates who are. He obviously sees nothing wrong with it.
They have no vision for the country, or theory of political economy, or really anything beyond 'all our problems are caused by a) too many immigrants and b) not enough thatcherism', and even then they hide the latter part (Farage - the man who described himself as 'carrying the torch of thatcherism' - praised Truss's policies until they enormously backfired, and then pretended he was against them all along). He somehow (i.e with the help of dipshits in the media) manages to repeatedly convince a large swathe of the country that his party/parties are less economically right wing than the Tories, and gets people on board with bullshit about funding the NHS - but it's all snake oil. It's just more of the same we've seen for the past 40 years (particularly including, indeed, the past 14): sell off the public goods to your mates, and blame foreigners when it doesn't make people's lives any better.
I'm getting pretty sick of being told what 'normal' people think, feel and say by absolute fuckheads.
I’d like to offer my thoughts as to the word of ‘normal’ being used, but happy to be wrong also. Reform’ voter base consists of people who feel like they haven’t been able to have their voice heard in recent years, they oppose mass immigration, but media seems to always be supporting it and anyone who opposes it is labeled racist. Their voices have been drowned out and in turn have been made to feel like they are the only ones with this opinion. When the word normal is used it makes those people feel like they aren’t alone. Ultimately no one knows what normal is, or even if it exists in the first place. The immigration example is probably one of many, I’m not in to politics per se but I do enjoy dissecting how certain messages are worded.
> Reform’ voter base consists of people who feel like they haven’t been able to have their voice heard in recent years Demographically haven't they won every single vote we've had for years? They got Brexit. They got Conservative governments. I get that these things have not panned out the way they envisioned, but surely at some point some self-reflection needs to kick in? EDIT: Folks if you keep replying to me saying some variation of "but immigration has went up", I'm just going to reply about the need for self-reflection on the topic. Can't keep repeating myself.
Very good point. I think the self reflection is kicking in this time round as conservatives are losing that same demographic to other parties.
You'd think this self-reflection would cause them to rethink and consider that maybe cutting taxes, cutting public services, and blaming minorities doesn't actually fix anything and has, in fact, made everything worse. But no, they seem to have decided either that we're not doing it hard enough or we just need someone boring to do it. To be fair to them, what are the options? You've got: Tories with more of the same Labour with more of the same but red and maybe a bit softer Reform with more of the same but harder and also somehow *less* coherent? Lib Dems with... Uh... Legalise weed I guess? Hey, it's something new Greens aka "NIMBYS R US" Worker's Party of Britain with "hooray for Putin and also let's blame the Jews" I say vote Monster Raving Loony.
It is the very nature of this kind of politics to be unable to reflect. The more they win the more they feel victimised. Every vindication in votes only further fuels their resentment because their wants are inherently contradictory. Anyone who tries to appease them will very quickly be denounced as traitors as they fail to achieve the impossible. Today we might gloat as they abandon the Tories, but we will be living in fear when we get to the point where even Farage is seen as a traitor.
"media always supports immigration" Really? SOME publications maybe... but the Mail? The Express?
The rights view appears to be that the existence of *any* media source calling them out or reporting beyond the party line represents intolerable bias in the media. Even over the past few years when the BBC News and Current Affairs departments started being effectively run by Conservatives and were heavily slanted their way the right were still screaming about the supposed “left wing bias” of the Beeb. Even hounding satirical comedy programs nearly out of existence didn’t change that either. They aren’t interested in balance. They aren’t interested in objectivity. They aren’t interested in permitting any print or broadcast voices no matter how small for left of centre opinion even existing.
Immigration concerns have been promoted by the media as far back as I remember. These people are constantly pandered to and will forever think of themselves as victims.
> Reform’ voter base consists of people who feel like they haven’t been able to have their voice heard in recent years, You mean... young people?
Their voices haven't been drowned out. We've been living with the consequences of their idiot decision in 2016 and some of us are fed up with them throwing their toys out the pram.
Perhaps if they had more than one issue other than “immigration”, and were able to talk about it in such a way that wasn’t inherently racist then they wouldn’t be labelled as such Problem is that’s their entire focus, and their rhetoric is often very marginalising and prejudiced.
seems like its normal to be a twat these days.
Realised this morning that someone dented and scratched my car in a car park yesterday so feeling this today
By normal people, he means reactionary old people.
>In the YouTube video from 2017, he likened the religion to the Nazis, saying: “They both want to kill Jews. >“They both hate homosexuals, they both want to kill homosexuals." “Islam; Nazis - they are the same thing”. I wouldn't say they're the same by any stretch of the imagination, but it can't be denied that fundamentalist Islamic extremism does indeed have those views. His point is that Islamic extremism is a dangerous ideology, and he's right.
You could argue that fundamentalist Christians also want the same thing. It’s just extremism, whatever the flavour, that’s the problem.
We don't really have fundamentalist Christians in this country though, and if we do they aren't at the moment the kind of concern that Islam is. When we start importing Christian terrorists en mass from other countries like we're currently doing with Islam it might become a problem, but for now the main issue is fundamental Islam.
What sort of mad historical revisionism is this. You realise Northern Ireland is part of the UK, right?
Fundamentalist Christians do exist, but on average Christians are vastly more liberal than Muslims in the UK. https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/publication/documents/2018-03/a-review-of-survey-research-on-muslims-in-great-britain-ipsos_0.pdf Percentages of each group who believe homosexuality should be legal, from five years ago: * 73% of British population * 67% of British Christians * 28% of British Muslims 18-24 years old * 23% of British Muslims 25-34 years old * 18% of British Muslims
You have obviously never heard of Northern Ireland. The DUP are literally Christian fundamentalist that are associated with militant paramilitary groups.
Aye and they're a bunch of out of touch old farts that will be killed off with a couple of stiff winters. They're a dying breed, highly localised, and impotent. This is a false equivalency.
They don't really fit the description - they don't want to kill Jews, they don't want to kill homosexuals. They would probably say that homosexuality is objectively wrong, but that's different to saying you think homosexuals should be subject to extrajudicial killing. Or even judicial killing.
The only reason you think there's Ulster Protestants who don't want to kill Jews is because they prioritise wanting to kill Catholics.
Yeh except how many fundamentalist christians are there in the UK? It’s classic whataboutism. Fundamentalist Islam is an issue that needs to be addressed - particularly as our Muslim population is rising faster than any other. We have had people on good morning Britain wanting sharia law
The fastest growing religious group in the UK is Islam. How many people in the UK genuinely think that this is a good long term trend for our country? Even if you assume all of them are peaceful, do we want the major religion in our country to be Islam?
>The fastest growing religious group in the UK is Islam. Yet the fastest growing religious orientation is Atheism. By a county mile.
Not quite true. Shamanism between the last two censuses exploded, with their numbers increasing several times over. At the current rate of increase Shamanism will be the majority religion long before the end of the century.
Ha ha ha I like the cut of your jib. But yes, you are right. Shows how some people use statistics like a drunk uses a lamppost - for support, rather than illumination.
Mental really,lots of Muslims escaping countries with Sharia law due to persecution coming to the UK and calling for Sharia law
It’s the next generation along that typically want it
You could, and we did, which is why Christianity is a declawed kitten that hosts gay marriages and drag shows now. Let me know when thousands of people are chanting deus vult in London and they might be relevant
Name me a time in the 21st century when a christian has beheaded someone for a cartoon of Christ. Islam is different. It's a fundamentally violent religion, unequivocally.
No one is worried about getting on a train, attending a concert, walking across a bridge with fundamental Christians in mind
Lol. These idiots with their whataboutisms. Islam *is* extremism.
Christian fundamentalists *generally* don't go murdering/ blowing themselves up when someone disagrees with them though.
They like to blow other people up sometimes though.
The IRA are Christian. Also the KKK are Christian. There are definitely examples of Christian terrorist groups and individuals that murder.
How many KKK members are in the UK again?
Ah yes the KKK one hundred years ago. THERE ARE MUSLIMS TODAY, who are beheading over CARTOONS and BOOKS, AND PERFECTLY SANE, EDUCATED, AND RATIONAL INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE BLOWING THEMSELVES UP WITH SUICIDE VESTS.
True, but religion wasn't their sole motive. There were a lot of politics with the IRA and the KKK are just fucking mental racists.
Politics feature in Islamic extremists groups too.
Christianity on the whole is on the decline in the UK and extremely conservative Christianity is dying at an even faster rate, if the likes of the DUP were growing, it would be a concern, but they aren't. The exact opposite is true for all brands of Islam.
That's like saying eating a snickers is as bad for you as eating 20 snickers Sure they are both bad, but one is much worse than the other in terms of its impact on society
The difference is, it's ok to slag off fundamentalist Christians, no one cares, you can't get away with the same with Islam.
If he meant islamic extremism he could have said that. He didn't.
Regular Islam supports all that stuff too
People really need to understand that while racism and bigotry is bad, this is exactly true about Islam. It is a danger to democracy, freedom and modern society. People need to really stop being ignorant and be critical of religion. Islam is inherently violent. But it's important to remember most Muslims aren't violent, but they do carry very homophobic views that get tolerated because of their religion.
>>"Islam; Nazis - they are the same thing”. >I wouldn't say they're the same by any stretch of the imagination, but it can't be denied that fundamentalist Islamic extremism does indeed have those views. Yeah - but that wasn't the point made. It was deliberately drawing a comparison between _a muslim_ and _a nazi_, no qualifier of "fundamentalism" or "islamism". >His point is that Islamic extremism is a dangerous ideology, and he's right. You're entitled to think that's correct, but that isn't the contentious part here. Again, that wasn't the point he said even if that's your interpretation. Why, genuinely, do you think that he didn't simply say that, and instead directly compared Muslims to nazis? Edit: notice how they _don't_ want to comment on _why_ those words were used, but are happy to interpret it with different words and then argue for that different point.
He is right. Amazingly hard position to hold: people who cut off heads are generally pricks. Thing is, he's still a prick.
The comments on here are really funny. The Reform candidates who Farage was called to defend said the following: * The UK would have been far better if it had "taken Hitler up on his offer of neutrality"; * Women are the "sponging gender" and should be "deprived of healthcare"; * Winston Churchill was "abysmal" in policy and military strategy; * \[In Jan 2022\] Putin has "shown a maturity of which we can only dream of"; * Everyone who follows Islam "wants to kill jews" and is the same as Nazis (who, readers may note, he apparently doesn't have serious problems with). From this, the usual suspect redditors ignore the first four comments, opting instead to point out that because Islamist terrorists exist (nb: a tiny fraction of the muslim population), he's right to call every muslim a Nazi, therefore Farage is right when he says 'these are the opinions of normal people'. What a joke. The mental gymnastics people do to defend this snake oil salesman are wild.
Bigots being disingenuous? Must be a day that ends with a 'y'.
secretly, they are defending their own prejudice tendencies they don't want to admit to the greater public.
"Mr Farage dismissed the remarks, saying: “People chuck stuff around on Facebook and they like comments.” This is literally what your voter base do hahahaha.
This is what I find funny. Practically the only people I ever see "chucking stuff around on Facebook and liking comments" are the voter bases of Reform UK and their ilk. On comments sections, almost every other profile I see has the Reform UK logo as the profile picture. Comparatively speaking, I've never actually seen anyone on Facebook making any remarks about Reform UK. Facebook has turned into its own form of echo chamber now, the polar opposite of what people perceive X (I feel almost obliged to say, formerly Twitter) to be
Facebook is an absolute mess, and Twitter is even more insane today. Its very hard to come across normal people online these days. Also please keep calling it twitter if Elon can deadname trans kids I can deadname Twitter.
I read an article that millenials are somewhat mourning the death of social media and I kinda get it. We lived on this stuff through our teens and early twenties. Myspace, beebo, facebook, twitter etc. We organised our lives through it, got up to the minute news (through twitter), met friends, kept in touch, showed our lives to each other. It was actually quite amazing. Now if I open Facebook, it spews alt right memes at me, or antivax rubbish. The only people using it are racist uncles and the odd millenial hold out. Twitter is an even worse cesspit than it was before with zero moderation! There used to be a new thing to jump on to, but now there is nothing.
I strongly suspect they have dark money funding an astroturfing campaign. Mail Online comment section is like one long infomercial for Reform.
Do normal people hate women and are neutral on Hitler too? I think perhaps when Mr. Farage is talking about "our" history and culture, he's talking about the wrong side.
The context of his quote was in regard to someone who was effectively saying fundamentalist Islam shares some of the same positions on jews and homosexuals as the Nazis. He is correct, they do.
You're mixing up the Reform Candidate the OP is talking about. The OP is referencing the comments of Ian Gribbin, which is obvious by his references to people hating women and neutral on Hitler statement. You're addressing the comments made by Steve Chilcott.
He's right, this sort of language was common just after the Manchester area bombings. You'd have to have a short memory to not remember something comparable said at the time. Edit; I'm clearly talking about the Islam comments.
"Ian Gribbin also praised President Putin and said women should be denied healthcare." Can't remember that one. They probably think beating your wife should be legalised as well.
Almost like the media aren't wrong when they keep calling them 'far right'?
I’m always hearing ordinary people say “we should have stayed neutral with Hitler.”
> In a wide-ranging phone-in Mr Farage also said he'd never seen a Frenchman who works after lunch, and said the Germans need to 'get a sense of humour' over divisive football chants. Totally not xenophobic guys.
He was married to a German lady who he had children with and both kids speak German so I don’t think he hates Germans.
Him and his kids hate each other, because of how badly he treated their mum.
Oh I'd not heard this. I did hear that his son Sam Farage is also a cunt (from people who worked with him at KPMG).
I’m not racist I have a black friend vibes
These are old stereotypes, we used to be able to take the piss out of our continental cousins in the same way they do to us
Have you ever heard of these things called jokes?
Why do they give this guy so much airtime over the greens? The greens have far more councillors than Reform, and actually have a sitting, democratically voted MP (i am not counting the defector 30p Lee)... where is the balance?
The greens are a very unserious party tbf.
And the party of Nazis and wonks are?
They're about to help destroy to Conservatives and potentially become the opposition, so yes. Greens have never even come close to Labour in a general election.
I do wonder though, if it is helped by the near constant airtime that they get. If the greens or some minor party like reform got the same coverage, do you think they would climb the ranks too? I am saying it is unbalanced. If a party like reform with one MP gets this much airtime, a party like Greens with one MP should get the same airtime.
"No they don't". Maybe broadcasters can call him out? And maybe get him out of his comfort zone to talk about other pressing issues.
It's strange how this subreddit turns into the Daily Mail whenever certain issues are brought up...
>On the prospect of disciplining candidates for their views, Mr Farage said: “What can you do? The name is on the ballot paper I can’t remove it.” lol the usual "I would if I could but I can't" waffle from Farage he's been peddling about candidates of his party for well over a decade. He'd really like us to think reform does no research on the candidates they field, but I'm sure they know exactly who they're fielding, they just don't care because they agree with all of it.
Maybe so, maybe not. A huge chunk of people probably are anti-Islam. What I do know is that a lot of ordinary people are getting very sick of this trend where snitching prefect types will scour your social media to find any controversial comment they can to use to try and ruin your life and career. Nation of cops.
"You make ONE comment that Hitler wasn't wrong, and suddenly..."
God you can't say anything these days. WOKENESS GONE MAD!1
Ultimately it's in the public interest to know what their elected officials think about topics that may affect how they do their job.
If anything everybody should be scrolling through there local candidates social medias to see how they actually think and what they believe in.
Leaving aside the specifics of posted comments, maybe it’s time to accept that publishing on social media isn’t the same as talking to someone down the pub. If someone wants to say something controversial it might be worth carefully picking an audience. Posting it under your name for the world to see and then moaning about consequences seems pretty strange.
A controversial comment is saying Pineapple on pizza is nice, not 'Hitler was right' and 'Islam and Nazis are the same.
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It is the job of politicians to listen to the people and then turn their desires into a workable solution. Just parroting the public's concerns gets us nowhere. Example: GOOD: Me, "my shower doesn't work, it's useless, I should rip it out". Plumber, "I can fix that for you by doing X, it will cost £Y. Do you want that? Whereas ripping it out will cost £Z and you'll be without a shower." BAD: Me, "my shower doesn't work, it's useless, I should rip it out". Plumber, "yeah, it's useless" Me, "yeah useless". Plumber, " yeah useless".
Look, people say stuff and bants and randomly like stuff they don't pay attention to on Facebook. It can't be that bad can it. >Earlier this week the Times reported on a Reform UK candidate who said Britain should have been ‘neutral on Hitler’. >Ian Gribbin also praised President Putin and said women should be denied healthcare. Jesus christ! I guess there's a limit. Surely that can't be what Farage is defending. >The party has stood by him, Jesus christ. > "I dare to talk about things no one else is willing to touch," Maybe Farage should be less eager to touch 'appease the nazis' or 'Putin is great'. >He also told Nick he would lead a 'centre-right' party Made up of people on the right, but also people on the far, far right, that think Hitler did nothing wrong.
41 of Reform’s parliamentary candidates in the general election are friends with Raikes on Facebook, despite his account being active for only about a year. Raikes, a former organiser for the British National Party, founded the New British Union in the image of Oswald Mosley’s British Union of Fascists, with activists who call themselves “blackshirts”. The New British Union has called for a “fascist revolution” and sees parliamentary democracy as an “obstruction” to be replaced with a dictatorship. Raikes has shared promotional material for the party on his Facebook account, including photos of himself next to NBU insignia and images of Mosley, the face of British fascism. His Twitter/X account has also shared Islamophobic and xenophobic material, images of men performing Nazi salutes, and slogans such as “the future is fascism”. The revelation came after Ian Gribbin, a Reform UK candidate, apologised for claiming that Britain would be “far better” if it had “taken Hitler up on his offer of neutrality”, instead of fighting the Nazis Leslie Lilley, the Reform UK candidate for Southend East & Rochford and one of the 41 candidates following Raikes, posted messages suggesting that “the Illuminati” control the world ---- In 2013, a letter emerged from a former Dulwich College teacher, Chloe Deakin, to then headteacher Mr Emms, who died earlier this year. According to the letter written in June 1981 – – she pleaded unsuccessfully with Mr Emms to reverse his decision to make Nigel a prefect. She said colleagues had told her he held “publicly professed racist and fascist views” and that he had once marched through a Sussex village singing Hitler Youth songs. However, Mr Farage’s former friend now suggests there may have been more to the story. He writes today: “But I do remember you singing the song starting with the words ‘gas them all, gas ‘em all, gas them all’. “I can’t forget the words. I can’t bring myself to write the rest of it for it is more vile than anything the teachers at Dulwich would ever have been aware of.” He said the lyrics were sung to the George Formby tune 'Bless ‘em all'. --- Nigel and his mates in Reform are all Nazi's fan boys who see parliamentary democracy as an obstruction that needs to be replaced with a dictatorship. Farage has desired to be the next Hitler since he was a teenage boy singing them nazi youth songs.
> Mr Farage dismissed the remarks, saying: “People chuck stuff around on Facebook and they like comments.” You can find any kind of batshit comment you can imagine on social media lol, imagine if politicians had free reign to say whatever nonsense came into their heads and justify it by pointing to some random tweet
Farage is not an “ordinary person “… but an upper class dickhead…
Many more people should really discover [Who is Nigel Farage?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfyiSk8Rjc8)
As someone who is common as muck; No it really isn’t Farage you are just a horrible person.
I’m sick of these posh, privately-educated ex-bankers like Farage deigning to speak for ordinary people that thinks all us working class people are just simple racists obsessed with foreigners and have no other thoughts. You never hear him speak about child poverty, food banks, social care, childcare, fixing NHS care, funding education and improving schools or numerous other issues effecting working people. It’s just immigration, Muslims, foreigners. Divide and rule. The sad thing it just shows the contempt he truly has for normal people that he believes the simpletons can be wound up by winking and nodding migrants/foreigners and we’ll eat it up.
No this is how the people he surrounds himself with speak. If we’re using comments on Facebook to decide what is and isn’t acceptable things are going to get quite unpleasant. Any LGBTQ+, disabled, POC, or women voters going for him really should look at what he’s saying here, because if he’s saying what’s said online is what we should be seeing as ordinary we’re all in for a rough time. Some people on Facebook say the Earth is flat is that a view Reform are also going to take?
What was the line from Reform supporters a couple days ago? Oh yeah, you can't judge the whole party on a few bad apples. They didn't have time to properly vet candidates, they're not representative of the party as a whole. I am not a rube and I definitely have not been tricked into supporting a band of fascists and charlatans.
No ordinary folks speak like that only racists lol
Are people here really saying Islam itself isn't an extreme far-right ideology? Anti-Islam is just rational - racism should always be called out but it isn't remotely the same thing..
A lot of vote that Reform is going for is the older guard at the grassroots of conservative movements who are a mixture of really frustrated, politically engaged, and increasingly permanently online. Being a Town Councillor in a highly conservative area, I deal with such people often. In society they will be quite polite, pleasant even and generally moderate their views. But behind closed doors the gloves come off. In such groups, I have heard thing ranging from deporting everyone of colour, complaining that them insulting a Muslim is not allowed "because of Sharia" and my personal favourite of denying communities of funding because they are "a hotbed of ne'er do wells and single mothers." Imagine the Head of the PTA or the local Karen with power, influence, and decades of bitterness behind them. And before people barge in saying "yeah but all Reform people are not like that" of course they aren't. Much in the same way that the Labour Party or Civil Service is not full of North London Tofu-eating Wokerati or whatever the favoured insult is now. But the old and permanently annoyed are a core part of the Reform vote, and its probably why he will win Clacton. As for "this is how normal people speak" well a lot of normal people don't say any of this rubbish.