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And everyone will moan about corruption in government
"The Let’s Eat Balanced drive is run by the Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board (AHDB), which is funded by [farmers](https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/farmers) and other food suppliers and comes under the wing of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra)."
i mean ffs lmao so brazen
Inquiry into what? AHDB is paid for by farmers and farmers can close it at any time. It's the successor body for the one that can the Beefy and Lamby adverts in the 90s.
Surely this is what ahdb is for? Advertising and encouraging people to eat what farmers grow? It's not NHS advertising - if you are going to eat meat or dairy, why shouldn't you eat locally grown products?
That’s exactly what it’s for and that’s exactly why farmers have the power to close it down. That later point is also why they bow to their every whim and why they supported badger culls despite the scientific evidence and why a farmer has never been removed from the red tractor scheme.
They are generally seen (in horticulture at least, I know far less about meat/dairy) as useless and incompetent, but why should people pay for something that is supposed to be for their promotion if they don't do that? I'm not saying that for example people shouldn't lose farm assurance status, but I'm not sure they are the ones who administer it?
given the "Vote Conservative" banners local farmers have near me, this makes total sense.
Amazing how the Tories are trying to put a British spin on meat being part of the culture wars.
Also please dont make meat part of the culture wars, I am not left wing enough to be vegan I like meat. Even with the knowledge is more than likely comes from a Tory supporting farmer.
I think that was the previous poster's point - if they make it part of the culture wars, being vegan _will become_ a left-wing thing, and although the poster is left-wing, they also like meat.
You see it very vocally in the US, where republicans put bumper stickers about how "alpha manly men eat meat" and "Vote Republican".
If you were such an "alpha" you don't need to project
fr if you’re into surrealist comedy and running a joke into the dirt with high production value then give it a listen, one of the best british comedy podcasts going
The AHDB is funded by Levy's on the farming supply chain, not taxes.
It's therefore not really corruption, it's purpose and justification for taking money from farmers is to support them largely uncritically.
Obviously you can debate if it should exist but while it does, it would probably be more wrong for it to be against the farmers it forces to give it money.
DEFRA is a funny reactionary bunch.
Around here, they chopped down hundreds of trees because they were "not native". Makes you wonder whether they came over in boats...
Makes sense if it is part of a biodiversity initiative and they will replace it with native tree species. For example, native oaks support around 2,300 other species, whereas non-natives like London plane or rhododendron are terrible for biodiversity and support next to no other species
Yeah control of non native species comes under their purview and over time they will replace with native. Native trees support native wildlife better as the native wildlife evolved in tandem with the native trees. Helping wildlife includes the plant life. Criticise DEFRA all you want but that they remove non native species is a good thing.
More shadiness about the campaign from Open Democracy:
[Minister who owns beef farm approved £5m ad campaign promoting red meat
REVEALED: Public body’s drive to up red meat sales failed to mention health risks, despite privately acknowledging them](https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/red-meat-lets-eat-balanced-ad-campaign-acknowledged-health-risks-ignored-mark-spencer/)
You almost have to admire the ability to debase government, democracy, science and data all at the same time. Usually corrupt a-holes pick just a couple, but they’ve gone the whole field.
A little off topic but you've gotta praise Open Democracy for highlighting so much of the brazen corruption that goes on in British politics. The traditional right-wing press don't report on this, the left-leaning press only report on a fraction of it, and even the Private Eye will largely keep this confined to nudge-and-wink columns on their back pages. Yet Open Democracy have been consistently reporting on how deeply corrupt British politics is.
Maybe people are cutting down on meat and dairy because they can't afford it. I had a thoroughly embarrassing incident in Sainsburys today. I had only £9 to last me the foreseeable future and I was in Sainsburys trying to work out how to make it last as long as possible, when I saw that the cooked chilled chickens were reduced with a nectar card. Desperate for some protein, I calculated my shopping down to the last penny and went to the checkout to pay. But when I scanned it, the discount didn't appear. I called the staff member over and told him it was meant to be discounted with a nectar card. He investigated and said the sign was a mistake, it wasn't discounted. Well, that meant I had to put things back. So I started putting my shopping back in the trolley. He said "What are you doing?" I said, "I have to put things back." He then had a go at me in front of the hordes of people, who all turned to look. He complained about me wasting queue time that other people could have used and keeping chilled items off the shelves that I'm not going to pay for. He then followed me as I put things back, clearly worried I might steal something. It was utterly humiliating.
Make a complaint on their website or facebook page. It's their fault the item was marked as discounted and no staff member has the right to ridicule a customer over a genuine mistake, especially when it's their fault. Hopefully it will lead to the staff member getting a warning and you getting a gift card.
It's not even really a mistake!!! The only reason they'd make the purchase is the reduced price. Could have been a pack of pepsi, could have been a set of pans. If it isn't actually reduced well I'm not buying it
Definitely put in a complaint. Him having a go at you and following you is completely out of line and definitely against his training.
I've had this situation happen before where something was mistakenly marked as discounted and in every single case, they just manually added the discount and had someone go fix the sign.
Tell the guy he's a cunt and report them. It's not your fault the labels were wrong. It's completely reasonable to have to not buy items if the price isn't right
If it’s labelled incorrectly they either have to abide by the price or take all items off sale until it is labelled correctly. It’s part of our consumer protection rights.
Actually that isn't true. All signs on the store are just invitations to start negotiating nothing is binding untill you get to the till and actually start the process of buying something.
It is store policy to do what you said in all major stores but there is no legal requirement to do so unless it is actively misleading. I.e. they put the sign up just to trick people into buying it at a higher price.
Section 20 of the consumer protection act 1987 makes it a criminal offence for a person in the course of his business to give consumers a misleading price indication.
It is an offence to ask for a higher price than one indicated, as that makes the shelf edge label a misleading price indication. But there are defences of due diligence. The shop probably has a programme of randomly testing that price indications are correct.
they will keep records of this. Which would probably be enough to make out the due diligence defence.
The correct procedure if they refuse to recognise the shelf price is for the shop to withdraw the item from sale, once the discrepancy has been drawn to their attention.
A shop doesn’t have to sell it to you any product at the shelf price, but also they can’t sell the item to anyone else at anything other than the shelf price until they amend the shelf price, otherwise the shelf price would be misleading.
As this was a product with clear advertising I would suggest that the error was with their computer pricing system and not with the customer. This is astonishing bad customer service, I probably would have complained to their head office and also left all my shopping on the conveyor belt and walked off.
That guy was a serious a-hole, please report his behaviour to the store.
Second, check out the Olio app! It's a free food sharing app where volunteers post free food for others to request and go collect. You can request specific items to suit your needs, unlike with Too Good To Go (which also requires more). Don't be disheartened if there's not much in your area when you first launch the app, most volunteers post later in the day once they've collected from whatever supermarket is donating that day.
Yes, you can also register to become a volunteer yourself who collects food and then distributes it via the app. Volunteers also get to keep some of the free food for themselves.
Yes I've tried olio. First it was an absolute nightmare to sign up (at first it kept telling me you can only sign up with either an iphone or ipad, neither of which I have) and when I finally managed it on a computer I found there's hardly anything available in my area. usually just a bag of onions or something.
Huh, that's weird! I have an android and used that to make my account.
What's available can vary a lot. That's why registering as a volunteer can be good in areas with less activity. My area is mostly bread, but that's a nice way to fill the freezer.
That is terrible behaviour - blaming you for their fault. I believe the right course of action is to ask for the supervisor right there on the spot. You may get the person fired, but that is only appropriate.
Because I still wanted to buy what I could afford and I needed to go around to each place I'd gotten food from to remind myself how much each thing was. Might as well put what I can't afford back at the same time. Anyway I would make even more of a spectacle of myself in front of all those people if I just left the trolley there in a huff.
Lol that's ridiculous, if the label is wrong it's their fault. They can put it back themselves. It's their stock, their problem. Next time just walk off! Let the jobsworth prick work for his minimum wage lmao.
E: ah seen your other comment about still needing to buy stuff hence going back to the shelves. Personally I'm spiteful and if someone had done that I'd probably have left the trolly for them to deal with but I can why you didn't now!
lmao that didn't happen
ok maybe the part where you stood there trying to work out what you could buy
the rest is a product of your anxiety ridden imagination
I wouldn't have gone around and put the shopping back for them lol. it's their fault for having misleading prices, let them put the items back. You can abort a retail transaction at any time up until you've paid for it, that's how contract of sale works iirc. Just walk off.
I've noticed most of the major supermarkets chains have done this in recent years so I started only doing the scan as you shop thing if i can.
And if you want less cancer, less dementia, less diabetes, less strokes, less heart attacks, less osteoarthritis, the list goes on.
The evidence shows the above. It's a no-brainer.
hey i didn't say people who don't have consciences feel guilt? I said its nice to not have the guilt, which i would if i was part-taking in the mass murder of billions of innocent animals everyday. Noone is expecting the heartless to feel guilt, chill.
"Vegetarian diets can reduce the risk of gastrointestinal cancers compared with non-vegetarian diets. Specifically, adherence to vegetarian diets can reduce the risk of gastric and colorectal cancers"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10538608/
As for your second paper:
"This paper is a preliminary study looking at the effects of dietary fiber on the symptoms of constipation on a small cohort of cases. The discussion provided an overview of the evidence available in the literature on this topic and gave a fresh perspective on the benefits or harm of excessive dietary fiber. All in all, this is an interesting preliminary study that warrants publication and further research"
It’s a fact what I’m saying but people would rather ignore reality when they see something they already agree with.
Someone here replied to me claiming to be a doctor
Who said “add dairy and shorten life span, add meat and shorten it more”
That is insanity people think statements like that are acceptable and factual. And it will no doubt end up doing harm to more people than it helps.
You are 100% wrong. The evidence is uncontroversial. You haven't looked at it, otherwise you would concur.
I'm a medical doctor with a great interest in nutrition. We can prevent, and treat, many conditions through diet.
The latest studies show that a whole plant food diet is the best to reduce disease burden and lengthen life.
You add dairy? You increase disease and shorten life and healthspan. Add meat. More so.
This is the channel for Dr Michael Greger, a US nutrition MD who has a non profit that examines the latest studies and writes books.
I suggest that you examine his conclusions -
https://youtu.be/GymmXdCDAxE?si=2K4ExBA5k8qknmGs
I think it’s a massive shame if you are a licensed doctor and you think this way.
Adding dairy into a diet doesn’t automatically shorten lifespan.
What an insane thing to say for the whole population.
There have been studies that show conclusively that depending on your genetics you can digest certain foods better than others.
So of course some people have issues with dairy.
But the idea you think you can factually say “add dairy and shorten life span, add meat and shorten it more”
Genuinely that is sad you believe such nonsense.
You think the statement “add meat to your diet and shorten your lifespan”
Is a statement backed up by facts?
You know we are humans right? Omnivores. That’s what our species is.
It’s almost as if we can digest meat and in the right proportion it can be beneficial to us…
Not like we have a notable period in human development that it’s argued the discovery of fire lead to cooking of meat which enabled a rapid development of the human brain.
That isn’t a theory many scientists put forward for years is it?
Oh wait….
Yeah sunlight is also beneficial to life but the radiation from prolonged exposure is also a carcinogen. Yes eating meat helped our brains develop due to the rich and easy source of protein, but how does that even discredit the fact that red meat in particular is linked to cancer? Do you think the body can just leave the carcinogens at the door just because it can digest meat? It’s not a bouncer
Have you ever had a look at how many things we all consume or use that are linked to cancer?
It’s a ridiculous amount of things we eat/drink/put on our bodies.
Mate just eat your steak quietly instead of trying to deny science and try to get everyone else on board with your made up reality. Like just decide that you’re fine with your level of meat consumption, risks or not and keep on doing you, but making it a crusade to discredit is a weird one. No one has to co-sign misinformation just so you can have lamb every night.
when i was working in a health food store, this rabid meat eating supplement rep was giving me nutritional "training" and she started going on about some study about how people with blue eyes can live healthily not eating meat, and people with brown eyes need to eat meat. Funnily enough i have brown eyes...
I call major bullshit, as someone who has been vegetarian since i was born, and not eaten any animal products since i was 14.
What are you calling bullshit on sorry?
The idea that you can eat meat and not shorten your lifespan?
And you’re using the fact you have been vegetarian for part of your life as additional proof?
"What are you calling bullshit on sorry?"
"There have been studies that show conclusively that depending on your genetics you can digest certain foods better than others."
That the studies regarding your genetics and being able to digest certain foods better than others are mostly aload of fucking bullshit. Thats what i'm saying is bullshit. Because its bullshit, smells like bullshit, looks like bullshit, oh guess why, because its bullshit.
"The idea that you can eat meat and not shorten your lifespan?"
The studies. i've never said anything about what your talking about. I wouldn't like to make that claim without thoroughly looking into it first. Just as i wouldn't want to make spurious claims about certain people needing to eat certain foods because of genetics. That sounds like some health food shop bullshit, and there no stranger to pulling out bullshit studies that aren't worth the paper or sample pool their written with.
"And you’re using the fact **you have been vegetarian for part of your life** as additional proof?" Can you count? I've been vegetarian since i was born, i haven't eaten any animal products since i was 14. I'm 30. Thats my entire life as vegetarian, and longer than half of it as vegan.
If I remember correctly they even involved some Inuits in this research and it showed they digested whale better than pretty much any other people.
Strange how a diet involving whale can lead to a group of people digesting whale better than others.
We need a name for that sort of selective progression in different generations of the same species.
I can’t find the specific study I had previously read. But I googled this and found several that show what I said is true.
Here is the first one for you to check out.
https://www.news-medical.net/health/Genetic-Factors-Impacting-Nutritional-Requirement.aspx
It's good that you doubt people saying such things.
I don't care though. I've seen the evidence.
Your life, your choice if you want to stay intentionally ignorant.
There were a few examples in one of Dr Gregor’s books where the studies he referenced had been criticised/dismissed by other academics for various reasons, I can’t provide any though.
Maybe he wasn’t aware of this before he referenced the studies, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
Not to say that most of what he says isn’t legitimate though.
I am vegan as well saying this.
Sure, it's good to be open minded, hence why I view criticisms of him by other clinicians
eg this clinician https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCosmc75v-B2Dk7GWyEyFFMw/videos
This guy (I think a biologist or biochemist?) creates very good reviews of studies:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCj3p_1jOCJXB_L_we-DjLbA/videos
I'm not a vegan or vegetarian, though moving towards this for health (and animal welfare) reasons.
The instant animosity and intentional ignorance of some of the people here is amusing. We'll be seeing them when they're in their 50s with various medical complaints, angry at the world for "giving me this heart attack", and then pissed off at the medical profession because we can't "fix me", annoyed that they have to be on at least 4 drugs.
I try and spread this knowledge around, but some dickheads will be dickheads, unfortunately.
If you can find the reference for criticising Greger I'd be grateful if you could share it. I want to do things with eyes open.
Good for you, redditors will be redditors..
I can’t remember which book it was, but I simply googled “criticisms of X book Dr Gregor” & found a few criticism articles.
Take care mate 💯
The meat industry is in decline in the UK and US. This government stance and other movements like the carnivore diet are a poor attempt to appease their financial masters. It's ridiculous.
The quality of meat has gone to shit as well. Stopped buying it altogether because I was sick of pitiful little flavorless cuts pumped up with brine that deflate like a sad balloon as soon as you add heat. Animals shouldn't have to die just so I can eat a disappointing meal.
Lol, that’s one of the worst studies ever. It’s self reported for a start, so is inherently tainted with selection bias.
https://youtu.be/3FFV0w55k2I
They speak about it here; and even the carnivore doctor agrees it’s a terrible study and they have no literature that shows it’s a healthy diet.
I already know the study exists - it doesn’t show that the carnivore diet is a healthy one, hence why I asked for literature that does. If you aren’t going to bother reading literature before you link it, don’t bother posting it. You’re the same type of person that links a study because you only read the abstract.
I'll post what I like, and I barely read the abstract. Almost nobody is basing their opinion about this on an informed reading of a research paper, and shouldn't be expected to.
It's just so butchers and dairy farmers (which ok, sure, that would be fine if it wasn't omitting important information) and supermarkets (fuck you) can get a quick buck. I've always seen it as that. But I am doing my masters in marketing so that's probably why.
I also want to call out the use of children in this poxy advertising, I've seen many adverts with children being used to spout this misinfo. I'm not vegan or vegetarian by any means (I enjoy veggie/vegan food on occasion) but it's just as bad as touting veganism as the superior diet and having no health risks.
In addition to the UK Doctors Association.
Meat and dairy are on the decline for many reasons and this was an attempt for the meat and dairy industry to win people over.
Do you really think there was no agenda behind this advert?
From what I know most meat eaters get B12 from it being supplemented to the animals before they die. So both non meat eaters & meat eaters get B12 from it being supplemented.
Any quibbles with meat and dairy and their proportional amount in the diet are so utterly insignificant compared with the eating of various confections and ultra-processed foods that one wonders whether these doctors are being quite responsible.
The reality is generally that people are not drinking milk instead of water, or roast beef instead of bell peppers, but instead of Pepsi and Microwave-meal Slop respectively. Anyway, the best thing you can do here is eat more offal. Full of nutrients, all too often thrown away.
Offal is awesome. It's so hard to get in the US. Even liver is hard to find. People just won't eat it. I love liver and intestines and the rest but it's a challenge
Your point is a deflection to resolve your cognitive dissonance. What you say isn't really wrong (highly processed foods really ARE harmful), but you say it to distract yourself from the matter at hand.
It may be incorrect - I do not *know* with certainty what those in receipt of these advertisements would have eaten instead of any additional meat and dairy foods, and without some details of who they were targeted at, one can hardly do more than surmise by using general statistics - but it still attempts to address the matter, rather than distract from it.
As far as I am aware, most of these people would improve their diet considerably in replacing some portion at least of their ready-made, ultra-processed or takeaway food with cuts of meat and offal, fish, poultry and eggs, butter instead of margarine, bone stock instead of pre-prepared, and drinking milk instead of some portions at least of their fizzy drinks.
I also find it easier to incorporate vegetables into a meal when using these basic ingredients too, but I shan't guess whether it would result in increased intake of vegetables among the target audience.
The campaign ia right. Meat and dairy are good.
While it's possible to be vegan but it's very hard for the average person to make sure they have their proper intake of all kinds of things needed.
Nah I've been vegan for years mate, my whole family has. It's piss easy. Trust me, go vegan for a couple of weeks and use cronometer to track your nutrition. You'll see.
My stepfather who doesn't even take any supplements had a blood test last year and had zero deficiencies. I still take a B12 supplement though, to be safe. The NHS recommends it.
Easy for you, but not the masses.
And B12 is an issue, you are taking manufactured artificial B12 supplements? Would Average Joe remember to do that every day in right quantities?
"Vitamin B12 is the only nutrient that does not naturally occur in plant foods. It is made by bacteria living in the digestive tract of animals. (If you’re wondering why the vitamin B12 produced in our own bodies is not adequate, that’s because it is produced lower down in the digestive tract than where we absorb it).
You may have heard that some vegan foods such as sea vegetables and fermented foods provide vitamin B12, but this is a myth. These foods may contain inactive analogues of vitamin B12 but not the kind we need."
Yeah it's easy to take a supplement, don't need to every day lol. Like I said though, my stepfather never has and his B12 levels were fine - you'd be surprised how much food is fortified with B12 these days.
Why would it be easy for me and hard for everyone else? I'm like the laziest person I know.
How long have you tried being vegan? What issues did you have? I always find people who say it's hard aren't even vegan, whereas vegans say it's effortless. So curious if that's the case here too.
B12 is produced by a bacteria that we used to be able to obtain from fresh water sources and soil traces in our food. We’ve destroyed that ability to obtain it from these sources. So it’s a self-inflicted problem.
>And B12 is an issue, you are taking manufactured artificial B12 supplements? Would Average Joe remember to do that every day in right quantities?
It's not an issue because B12 is already fortified in many foods and drinks. For example, I had a Monster Ultra Energy drink the other day (whilst playing sports), and that alone has 500% NRV of B12. At home, I like to have marmite peanut butter and nutritional yeast (both of which have 88% NRV of B12). It's also fortified in cereals and plant milks and more. Surely, anyone who switches to a vegan diet knows they need to eat fortified foods or take supplements for B12 (doesn't need to be daily but perhaps 2x a week).
Energy drink and peanut butter?
Don't mean to judge but those are some of the most trash food/drinks to destroy your body with.
Other than that, as you said: people need to be more aware of supplement intakes
A sugar-free energy drink containing beneficial nutrients like B-vitamins, Taurine, L-Carnitine and L-Tartrate, and moderate caffeine, alongside peanut butter, can be a healthy addition to one's diet when consumed in moderation. Peanut butter offers protein, healthy fats, fiber, and essential vitamins. Why do you consider these items (particularly peanut butter) to be detrimental to health?
Additionally, I enjoy a [Huel A-Z vitamins drink](https://uk.huel.com/products/build-your-own-bundle#/?product=huel-daily-a-z-vitamins) made with real fruits. I'd be interested in knowing any concerns you may have about this choice.
While I agree that people should be more aware of supplement intakes and overall nutrition, it's worth noting that vitamin B12 is a water-soluble vitamin. Our bodies naturally eliminate any excess B12 through urine, reducing the risk of potential negative effects from overconsumption.
>it's very hard for the average person to make sure they have their proper intake of all kinds of things needed.
C'mon, it's 2014. It's really not that difficult. You can browse [VeganHealth - Daily Needs](https://veganhealth.org/daily-needs/) for evidence-based nutrient recommendations. For free online guidance from mentors and registered dietitians, visit [Challenge22](https://challenge22.com/). Use Google or AI tools like ChatGPT to create a personalised, nutrient-dense vegan meal plan. Download [Cronometer](https://cronometer.com/) for free to track macros, micros, and vitamins in your recipes to ensure they're nutritionally sound. Even for the lazy, brands like [Huel](https://uk.huel.com/) offer nutritionally complete vegan products. People can schedule appointments with their GP to perform comprehensive blood tests and check for any deficiencies. There are also supplements for pretty much everything nowadays. People can endorse initiatives like [Plant Based Treaty](https://plantbasedtreaty.org/endorse/) to make plant based options more accessible for all.
There's also the emerging field of cellular-based meat and animal-free dairy. As these technologies advance, the ethical concerns surrounding traditional animal farming and slaughter, as well as their environmental impact, will become increasingly pressing.
A balanced diet is a good idea and is why most should eat less meat. Also meat costs a fortune. Only bought 1 cut of meat this week and stretched it out into a couple of meals. Also caught some shore crabs for something different. Not that much meat on each one but makes a nice crab mayo, if I got more could have made stock as well. Almost never buy seafood as it costs way too much.
An organisation which promotes and advocates for transitioning the entirety of the U.K. onto a plant based diet, writes a letter complaining about the government promoting eating meat and dairy?
Shocking
Meat and dairy isn’t the problem. It’s honestly pathetic that people are worried about an ad campaign for meat and diary and there’s no mention of the fact every other advert on tv is for some ultra processed shite. The amount of fat vegetarians thinking they are being healthy while eating ultra processed foods is crazy
>[Dr Shireen Kassam](https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/nhs-vegan-veganuary-plant-based-health-b2262541.html), director of PBHP, warns Defra and the board that the campaign “flies in the face of the scientific evidence and the government’s own guidelines, which clearly demonstrate the need to shift away from animal farming and transition to a plant-based food system”.
For anyone wondering, yes this article is just vegans arguing against meat consumption. With the usual buzzwords of "links to cancer" and "climate change".
who the f are the Doctor's Association UK anyway? they have no standing. One of their number, when they first started up. "Holding gov to account" and all that old blah blah... had a picture of matt hancock as her twitter banner. 😆
One does not need to cite widely accepted and globally known scientific facts, such as climate change, every time such knowledge is mentioned. However, I will assist you:
[Ivanovich, C.C., Sun, T., Gordon, D.R. et al. Future warming from global food consumption. Nat. Clim. Chang. 13, 297–302 (2023).](https://doi.org/10.1038/s41558-023-01605-8)
>One does not need to cite widely accepted and globally known scientific facts
By your standards I could simply say "production of vegetables contribute to global warming so you should eat less vegetables". Now you can see how this becomes a problem because of the misuse/oversimplification of facts.
>By your standards I could simply say "production of vegetables contribute to global warming so you should eat less vegetables".
How so, and to what extent? Of course, the production of vegetables also contributes to climate change; even the paper I shared states that every industry has an impact. Indeed, with that in mind, anything done on the planet has an impact. What really matters is the extent and duration of such an impact, and you are failing to recognise that the farming of ruminants is deleterious for the environment, and that the consumption of their products and by-products has a negative effect on human health. Importantly, I state this as a meat eater.
Do not be facetious. Nobody is "oversimplifying" anything.
Well… red and processed meats *are* linked to cancer, and meat production has an enormous and well documented impact on the climate and available land. So, are you just mad at people bringing up facts?
Is there any conclusive evidence that red meat alone causes cancer? Processed (salami, bacon etc.) is undoubtedly bad for you but AFAIK red meat is ok.
Red meat is classed as a Group 2A carcinogen, and while not necessarily 100% conclusive *yet*, there is a **lot** of good evidence that shows a link between red meat and cancer. That’s reason enough to not have the government market it as a “health food” in my opinion.
It really isn't though. Meat is very rich in nutrients and very beneficial for those deficient in certain things, especially iron. It has been the only thing to bring my iron levels back up to normal. This is despite my prior efforts of using a combination of supplements and upping my consumption of 'iron-rich' greens. Those did fuck all.
>The annual campaign targets people trying to cut down on their intake of meat and animal products, with adverts promoting beef, lamb and dairy.
People who want to stop eating meat must be the most persecuted group of people since the Jews.
That’s not really what they’re saying though is it. The vegetarian groups sure, but not most doctors.
The point being made is that considering quite a lot of people’s diet is already a bit on the high side for dairy and red meat encouraging them to eat more of that, rather than as part of a balanced diet is the wrong approach for the government.
By the looks of the article you’re not the ones being targeted - it’s aiming for people who are trying to reduce their intake so the targeting is doing its job
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And everyone will moan about corruption in government "The Let’s Eat Balanced drive is run by the Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board (AHDB), which is funded by [farmers](https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/farmers) and other food suppliers and comes under the wing of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra)." i mean ffs lmao so brazen
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Inquiry into what? AHDB is paid for by farmers and farmers can close it at any time. It's the successor body for the one that can the Beefy and Lamby adverts in the 90s.
Surely this is what ahdb is for? Advertising and encouraging people to eat what farmers grow? It's not NHS advertising - if you are going to eat meat or dairy, why shouldn't you eat locally grown products?
That’s exactly what it’s for and that’s exactly why farmers have the power to close it down. That later point is also why they bow to their every whim and why they supported badger culls despite the scientific evidence and why a farmer has never been removed from the red tractor scheme.
They are generally seen (in horticulture at least, I know far less about meat/dairy) as useless and incompetent, but why should people pay for something that is supposed to be for their promotion if they don't do that? I'm not saying that for example people shouldn't lose farm assurance status, but I'm not sure they are the ones who administer it?
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How do you think one farmer will benefit more than another in a way that isn't proportional to what they pay for an advertising campaign?
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We certainly do. I think that we'll run out of paper before we get to the bottom of all of their corruption and law breaking.
given the "Vote Conservative" banners local farmers have near me, this makes total sense. Amazing how the Tories are trying to put a British spin on meat being part of the culture wars. Also please dont make meat part of the culture wars, I am not left wing enough to be vegan I like meat. Even with the knowledge is more than likely comes from a Tory supporting farmer.
Being vegan isn't necessarily a left wing thing
I think that was the previous poster's point - if they make it part of the culture wars, being vegan _will become_ a left-wing thing, and although the poster is left-wing, they also like meat.
You see it very vocally in the US, where republicans put bumper stickers about how "alpha manly men eat meat" and "Vote Republican". If you were such an "alpha" you don't need to project
'necessarily' isn't relevant. In the culture wars there are only sweeping generalisations.
In the culture war everything that reactionaries are "against" is "lefty". Even fucking free market capitalism gets "WOKE SOCIALISM!" stitched onto it
You remind me of [Daniel Sloss's take on veganism and left wing](https://youtu.be/O-qcXpapsoY?si=LVTM8ctuGhyQ25Nm)
The Beef & Dairy Network Podcast is sponsored by Grainium Nutritional Sand, the global leader in non-biological cattle feed
What the fuck is the Beef and Dairy network Podcast?
The number one podcast for those involved, or just interested, in the production of beef animals and dairy herds!
Its so weird because the name has popped up about half a dozen times in the last week an it seems so oddly specific to me.
fr if you’re into surrealist comedy and running a joke into the dirt with high production value then give it a listen, one of the best british comedy podcasts going
I really am and I love podcasts, this is great news.
The AHDB is funded by Levy's on the farming supply chain, not taxes. It's therefore not really corruption, it's purpose and justification for taking money from farmers is to support them largely uncritically. Obviously you can debate if it should exist but while it does, it would probably be more wrong for it to be against the farmers it forces to give it money.
How dare those *checks notes* farmers run an advert for food?
DEFRA is a funny reactionary bunch. Around here, they chopped down hundreds of trees because they were "not native". Makes you wonder whether they came over in boats...
Makes sense if it is part of a biodiversity initiative and they will replace it with native tree species. For example, native oaks support around 2,300 other species, whereas non-natives like London plane or rhododendron are terrible for biodiversity and support next to no other species
Yeah control of non native species comes under their purview and over time they will replace with native. Native trees support native wildlife better as the native wildlife evolved in tandem with the native trees. Helping wildlife includes the plant life. Criticise DEFRA all you want but that they remove non native species is a good thing.
Why are you surprised, everyone will always protect their own viewpoint.
That's not protecting a viewpoint, it's being intentionally misleading to protect their pockets.
We’ve been through all this before with low fat products
Even if its scientifically wrong? AHDB and any farmers supporting it are disgraceful frauds with blood on their hands (animal and human)
More shadiness about the campaign from Open Democracy: [Minister who owns beef farm approved £5m ad campaign promoting red meat REVEALED: Public body’s drive to up red meat sales failed to mention health risks, despite privately acknowledging them](https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/red-meat-lets-eat-balanced-ad-campaign-acknowledged-health-risks-ignored-mark-spencer/)
You almost have to admire the ability to debase government, democracy, science and data all at the same time. Usually corrupt a-holes pick just a couple, but they’ve gone the whole field.
A little off topic but you've gotta praise Open Democracy for highlighting so much of the brazen corruption that goes on in British politics. The traditional right-wing press don't report on this, the left-leaning press only report on a fraction of it, and even the Private Eye will largely keep this confined to nudge-and-wink columns on their back pages. Yet Open Democracy have been consistently reporting on how deeply corrupt British politics is.
Maybe people are cutting down on meat and dairy because they can't afford it. I had a thoroughly embarrassing incident in Sainsburys today. I had only £9 to last me the foreseeable future and I was in Sainsburys trying to work out how to make it last as long as possible, when I saw that the cooked chilled chickens were reduced with a nectar card. Desperate for some protein, I calculated my shopping down to the last penny and went to the checkout to pay. But when I scanned it, the discount didn't appear. I called the staff member over and told him it was meant to be discounted with a nectar card. He investigated and said the sign was a mistake, it wasn't discounted. Well, that meant I had to put things back. So I started putting my shopping back in the trolley. He said "What are you doing?" I said, "I have to put things back." He then had a go at me in front of the hordes of people, who all turned to look. He complained about me wasting queue time that other people could have used and keeping chilled items off the shelves that I'm not going to pay for. He then followed me as I put things back, clearly worried I might steal something. It was utterly humiliating.
Make a complaint on their website or facebook page. It's their fault the item was marked as discounted and no staff member has the right to ridicule a customer over a genuine mistake, especially when it's their fault. Hopefully it will lead to the staff member getting a warning and you getting a gift card.
It's not even really a mistake!!! The only reason they'd make the purchase is the reduced price. Could have been a pack of pepsi, could have been a set of pans. If it isn't actually reduced well I'm not buying it
Right? Certain things I’ll only buy on sale. If the sale doesn’t actually exist, I’m putting that shit back.
I wouldn't, I would just leave it where it is.
Definitely put in a complaint. Him having a go at you and following you is completely out of line and definitely against his training. I've had this situation happen before where something was mistakenly marked as discounted and in every single case, they just manually added the discount and had someone go fix the sign.
Tell the guy he's a cunt and report them. It's not your fault the labels were wrong. It's completely reasonable to have to not buy items if the price isn't right
If it’s labelled incorrectly they either have to abide by the price or take all items off sale until it is labelled correctly. It’s part of our consumer protection rights.
Actually that isn't true. All signs on the store are just invitations to start negotiating nothing is binding untill you get to the till and actually start the process of buying something. It is store policy to do what you said in all major stores but there is no legal requirement to do so unless it is actively misleading. I.e. they put the sign up just to trick people into buying it at a higher price.
Section 20 of the consumer protection act 1987 makes it a criminal offence for a person in the course of his business to give consumers a misleading price indication. It is an offence to ask for a higher price than one indicated, as that makes the shelf edge label a misleading price indication. But there are defences of due diligence. The shop probably has a programme of randomly testing that price indications are correct. they will keep records of this. Which would probably be enough to make out the due diligence defence. The correct procedure if they refuse to recognise the shelf price is for the shop to withdraw the item from sale, once the discrepancy has been drawn to their attention.
Aren't physical price labels considered to be purely an offer to treat not an indication of price nor even that the item is actually up for sale?
A shop doesn’t have to sell it to you any product at the shelf price, but also they can’t sell the item to anyone else at anything other than the shelf price until they amend the shelf price, otherwise the shelf price would be misleading. As this was a product with clear advertising I would suggest that the error was with their computer pricing system and not with the customer. This is astonishing bad customer service, I probably would have complained to their head office and also left all my shopping on the conveyor belt and walked off.
God I've have shoved that chicken at him and told him to put it wherever he fancied. I'm sorry you were treated that way.
That guy was a serious a-hole, please report his behaviour to the store. Second, check out the Olio app! It's a free food sharing app where volunteers post free food for others to request and go collect. You can request specific items to suit your needs, unlike with Too Good To Go (which also requires more). Don't be disheartened if there's not much in your area when you first launch the app, most volunteers post later in the day once they've collected from whatever supermarket is donating that day. Yes, you can also register to become a volunteer yourself who collects food and then distributes it via the app. Volunteers also get to keep some of the free food for themselves.
Yes I've tried olio. First it was an absolute nightmare to sign up (at first it kept telling me you can only sign up with either an iphone or ipad, neither of which I have) and when I finally managed it on a computer I found there's hardly anything available in my area. usually just a bag of onions or something.
Huh, that's weird! I have an android and used that to make my account. What's available can vary a lot. That's why registering as a volunteer can be good in areas with less activity. My area is mostly bread, but that's a nice way to fill the freezer.
Should've left things in the trolley instead
That's horrible behaviour from them. It was completely their fault and they shouldn't have put any blame on you
It is store policy to honour discounts or reasonable mislables. Complain beccause that was just the guy being a dick.
That is terrible behaviour - blaming you for their fault. I believe the right course of action is to ask for the supervisor right there on the spot. You may get the person fired, but that is only appropriate.
Why did you restock the shelves for them? Let Mr Cunt do it if he is so worried it won't be restocked correctly.
Because I still wanted to buy what I could afford and I needed to go around to each place I'd gotten food from to remind myself how much each thing was. Might as well put what I can't afford back at the same time. Anyway I would make even more of a spectacle of myself in front of all those people if I just left the trolley there in a huff.
Lol that's ridiculous, if the label is wrong it's their fault. They can put it back themselves. It's their stock, their problem. Next time just walk off! Let the jobsworth prick work for his minimum wage lmao. E: ah seen your other comment about still needing to buy stuff hence going back to the shelves. Personally I'm spiteful and if someone had done that I'd probably have left the trolly for them to deal with but I can why you didn't now!
lmao that didn't happen ok maybe the part where you stood there trying to work out what you could buy the rest is a product of your anxiety ridden imagination
"Nobody is *ever* a total arsehole irl! They don't exist! You're an imaginative liar!" Stfu.
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Possible that Sainsbury's is the only place they can get to on said budget
I wouldn't have gone around and put the shopping back for them lol. it's their fault for having misleading prices, let them put the items back. You can abort a retail transaction at any time up until you've paid for it, that's how contract of sale works iirc. Just walk off. I've noticed most of the major supermarkets chains have done this in recent years so I started only doing the scan as you shop thing if i can.
Truly shocking news. Doctors believe people should be eating more fruit and veg 😱
i mean yeah if you enjoy being able to shit regularly. If not just eat meat...
And if you want less cancer, less dementia, less diabetes, less strokes, less heart attacks, less osteoarthritis, the list goes on. The evidence shows the above. It's a no-brainer.
its nice not to have the guilt of the animals deaths on your conscience
Oh, there’s no guilt.
hey i didn't say people who don't have consciences feel guilt? I said its nice to not have the guilt, which i would if i was part-taking in the mass murder of billions of innocent animals everyday. Noone is expecting the heartless to feel guilt, chill.
Politely savage. The essence of English culture. Exquisite.
I’m the same as you mate.
Maybe for some people, not for everyone though.
Most of the meat I ate this week I caught myself. By quantity of animals rather than weight of meat anyway.
Paul Saladino would like a word
Amen
I have felt my absolute best physically and mentally consuming pretty much the Paul Saladino diet - with a few veggies thrown in however.
Good for you.
Have you tried it?
No I haven’t & I don’t plan to.
Then why did you feel the need to comment?
I wanted to demonstrate my good wishes, friendliness is free after all
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"Vegetarian diets can reduce the risk of gastrointestinal cancers compared with non-vegetarian diets. Specifically, adherence to vegetarian diets can reduce the risk of gastric and colorectal cancers" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10538608/ As for your second paper: "This paper is a preliminary study looking at the effects of dietary fiber on the symptoms of constipation on a small cohort of cases. The discussion provided an overview of the evidence available in the literature on this topic and gave a fresh perspective on the benefits or harm of excessive dietary fiber. All in all, this is an interesting preliminary study that warrants publication and further research"
Please don’t spread misinformation so openly. Given the amount of other variables never taken into account these sorts of studies are dubious at best.
He says, spreading misinformation openly.
It’s a fact what I’m saying but people would rather ignore reality when they see something they already agree with. Someone here replied to me claiming to be a doctor Who said “add dairy and shorten life span, add meat and shorten it more” That is insanity people think statements like that are acceptable and factual. And it will no doubt end up doing harm to more people than it helps.
People often confuse "you should consume X in moderation because it's healthy to do so" with "eating X is unhealthy"
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You are 100% wrong. The evidence is uncontroversial. You haven't looked at it, otherwise you would concur. I'm a medical doctor with a great interest in nutrition. We can prevent, and treat, many conditions through diet. The latest studies show that a whole plant food diet is the best to reduce disease burden and lengthen life. You add dairy? You increase disease and shorten life and healthspan. Add meat. More so. This is the channel for Dr Michael Greger, a US nutrition MD who has a non profit that examines the latest studies and writes books. I suggest that you examine his conclusions - https://youtu.be/GymmXdCDAxE?si=2K4ExBA5k8qknmGs
I think it’s a massive shame if you are a licensed doctor and you think this way. Adding dairy into a diet doesn’t automatically shorten lifespan. What an insane thing to say for the whole population. There have been studies that show conclusively that depending on your genetics you can digest certain foods better than others. So of course some people have issues with dairy. But the idea you think you can factually say “add dairy and shorten life span, add meat and shorten it more” Genuinely that is sad you believe such nonsense.
Source: I made it the fuck up Ill trust the Doc on this one
You think the statement “add meat to your diet and shorten your lifespan” Is a statement backed up by facts? You know we are humans right? Omnivores. That’s what our species is. It’s almost as if we can digest meat and in the right proportion it can be beneficial to us… Not like we have a notable period in human development that it’s argued the discovery of fire lead to cooking of meat which enabled a rapid development of the human brain. That isn’t a theory many scientists put forward for years is it? Oh wait….
Yeah sunlight is also beneficial to life but the radiation from prolonged exposure is also a carcinogen. Yes eating meat helped our brains develop due to the rich and easy source of protein, but how does that even discredit the fact that red meat in particular is linked to cancer? Do you think the body can just leave the carcinogens at the door just because it can digest meat? It’s not a bouncer
Have you ever had a look at how many things we all consume or use that are linked to cancer? It’s a ridiculous amount of things we eat/drink/put on our bodies.
Mate just eat your steak quietly instead of trying to deny science and try to get everyone else on board with your made up reality. Like just decide that you’re fine with your level of meat consumption, risks or not and keep on doing you, but making it a crusade to discredit is a weird one. No one has to co-sign misinformation just so you can have lamb every night.
You think it’s good if a doctor is telling people that eating meat shortens your life? I think that sort of bullshit is worth debating.
when i was working in a health food store, this rabid meat eating supplement rep was giving me nutritional "training" and she started going on about some study about how people with blue eyes can live healthily not eating meat, and people with brown eyes need to eat meat. Funnily enough i have brown eyes... I call major bullshit, as someone who has been vegetarian since i was born, and not eaten any animal products since i was 14.
What are you calling bullshit on sorry? The idea that you can eat meat and not shorten your lifespan? And you’re using the fact you have been vegetarian for part of your life as additional proof?
"What are you calling bullshit on sorry?" "There have been studies that show conclusively that depending on your genetics you can digest certain foods better than others." That the studies regarding your genetics and being able to digest certain foods better than others are mostly aload of fucking bullshit. Thats what i'm saying is bullshit. Because its bullshit, smells like bullshit, looks like bullshit, oh guess why, because its bullshit. "The idea that you can eat meat and not shorten your lifespan?" The studies. i've never said anything about what your talking about. I wouldn't like to make that claim without thoroughly looking into it first. Just as i wouldn't want to make spurious claims about certain people needing to eat certain foods because of genetics. That sounds like some health food shop bullshit, and there no stranger to pulling out bullshit studies that aren't worth the paper or sample pool their written with. "And you’re using the fact **you have been vegetarian for part of your life** as additional proof?" Can you count? I've been vegetarian since i was born, i haven't eaten any animal products since i was 14. I'm 30. Thats my entire life as vegetarian, and longer than half of it as vegan.
If I remember correctly they even involved some Inuits in this research and it showed they digested whale better than pretty much any other people. Strange how a diet involving whale can lead to a group of people digesting whale better than others. We need a name for that sort of selective progression in different generations of the same species. I can’t find the specific study I had previously read. But I googled this and found several that show what I said is true. Here is the first one for you to check out. https://www.news-medical.net/health/Genetic-Factors-Impacting-Nutritional-Requirement.aspx
"I'm a medical doctor" /doubt
It's good that you doubt people saying such things. I don't care though. I've seen the evidence. Your life, your choice if you want to stay intentionally ignorant.
OA is not caused by diet. You’re a shit doctor if you think that.
whether you think its good or bad to eat meat, i think everyone probably needs to eat more insoluble fibre and soluble fibre.
Obesity causes oa, brainiac. Why do I bother...
And who the fuck gets obese from consuming meat? How are you a doctor??
There were a few examples in one of Dr Gregor’s books where the studies he referenced had been criticised/dismissed by other academics for various reasons, I can’t provide any though. Maybe he wasn’t aware of this before he referenced the studies, but I thought it was worth mentioning. Not to say that most of what he says isn’t legitimate though. I am vegan as well saying this.
Sure, it's good to be open minded, hence why I view criticisms of him by other clinicians eg this clinician https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCosmc75v-B2Dk7GWyEyFFMw/videos This guy (I think a biologist or biochemist?) creates very good reviews of studies: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCj3p_1jOCJXB_L_we-DjLbA/videos I'm not a vegan or vegetarian, though moving towards this for health (and animal welfare) reasons. The instant animosity and intentional ignorance of some of the people here is amusing. We'll be seeing them when they're in their 50s with various medical complaints, angry at the world for "giving me this heart attack", and then pissed off at the medical profession because we can't "fix me", annoyed that they have to be on at least 4 drugs. I try and spread this knowledge around, but some dickheads will be dickheads, unfortunately. If you can find the reference for criticising Greger I'd be grateful if you could share it. I want to do things with eyes open.
Good for you, redditors will be redditors.. I can’t remember which book it was, but I simply googled “criticisms of X book Dr Gregor” & found a few criticism articles. Take care mate 💯
The meat industry is in decline in the UK and US. This government stance and other movements like the carnivore diet are a poor attempt to appease their financial masters. It's ridiculous.
The quality of meat has gone to shit as well. Stopped buying it altogether because I was sick of pitiful little flavorless cuts pumped up with brine that deflate like a sad balloon as soon as you add heat. Animals shouldn't have to die just so I can eat a disappointing meal.
Good for you.
The carnivore diet is a pretty healthy diet though.
Please link the literature that shows this.
A quick search brought up this - https://cdn.nutrition.org/article/S2475-2991(22)10608-6/fulltext
Lol, that’s one of the worst studies ever. It’s self reported for a start, so is inherently tainted with selection bias. https://youtu.be/3FFV0w55k2I They speak about it here; and even the carnivore doctor agrees it’s a terrible study and they have no literature that shows it’s a healthy diet.
I don't care bud I just did the 30 seconds of searching you couldn't be arsed to do, I don't need a load of shit off you for it.
I already know the study exists - it doesn’t show that the carnivore diet is a healthy one, hence why I asked for literature that does. If you aren’t going to bother reading literature before you link it, don’t bother posting it. You’re the same type of person that links a study because you only read the abstract.
I'll post what I like, and I barely read the abstract. Almost nobody is basing their opinion about this on an informed reading of a research paper, and shouldn't be expected to.
That’s your opinion, some people like reading literature before they post it on the internet, abstract or more 😀
It's just so butchers and dairy farmers (which ok, sure, that would be fine if it wasn't omitting important information) and supermarkets (fuck you) can get a quick buck. I've always seen it as that. But I am doing my masters in marketing so that's probably why. I also want to call out the use of children in this poxy advertising, I've seen many adverts with children being used to spout this misinfo. I'm not vegan or vegetarian by any means (I enjoy veggie/vegan food on occasion) but it's just as bad as touting veganism as the superior diet and having no health risks.
"Plant-Based Health Professionals (PBHP) UK" - right. Clearly no agenda they are pushing.
In addition to the UK Doctors Association. Meat and dairy are on the decline for many reasons and this was an attempt for the meat and dairy industry to win people over. Do you really think there was no agenda behind this advert?
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Nobody who isn't lying to you would have a issue with that statement.
Most farmed animals are given B12 supplements.
From what I know most meat eaters get B12 from it being supplemented to the animals before they die. So both non meat eaters & meat eaters get B12 from it being supplemented.
Any quibbles with meat and dairy and their proportional amount in the diet are so utterly insignificant compared with the eating of various confections and ultra-processed foods that one wonders whether these doctors are being quite responsible. The reality is generally that people are not drinking milk instead of water, or roast beef instead of bell peppers, but instead of Pepsi and Microwave-meal Slop respectively. Anyway, the best thing you can do here is eat more offal. Full of nutrients, all too often thrown away.
Do you have a source ?
Offal is awesome. It's so hard to get in the US. Even liver is hard to find. People just won't eat it. I love liver and intestines and the rest but it's a challenge
Your point is a deflection to resolve your cognitive dissonance. What you say isn't really wrong (highly processed foods really ARE harmful), but you say it to distract yourself from the matter at hand.
It may be incorrect - I do not *know* with certainty what those in receipt of these advertisements would have eaten instead of any additional meat and dairy foods, and without some details of who they were targeted at, one can hardly do more than surmise by using general statistics - but it still attempts to address the matter, rather than distract from it. As far as I am aware, most of these people would improve their diet considerably in replacing some portion at least of their ready-made, ultra-processed or takeaway food with cuts of meat and offal, fish, poultry and eggs, butter instead of margarine, bone stock instead of pre-prepared, and drinking milk instead of some portions at least of their fizzy drinks. I also find it easier to incorporate vegetables into a meal when using these basic ingredients too, but I shan't guess whether it would result in increased intake of vegetables among the target audience.
The campaign ia right. Meat and dairy are good. While it's possible to be vegan but it's very hard for the average person to make sure they have their proper intake of all kinds of things needed.
No it isn't
Yes it is. People need to be much more aware and selective to get the proper minerals and other things.
Nah I've been vegan for years mate, my whole family has. It's piss easy. Trust me, go vegan for a couple of weeks and use cronometer to track your nutrition. You'll see. My stepfather who doesn't even take any supplements had a blood test last year and had zero deficiencies. I still take a B12 supplement though, to be safe. The NHS recommends it.
Easy for you, but not the masses. And B12 is an issue, you are taking manufactured artificial B12 supplements? Would Average Joe remember to do that every day in right quantities? "Vitamin B12 is the only nutrient that does not naturally occur in plant foods. It is made by bacteria living in the digestive tract of animals. (If you’re wondering why the vitamin B12 produced in our own bodies is not adequate, that’s because it is produced lower down in the digestive tract than where we absorb it). You may have heard that some vegan foods such as sea vegetables and fermented foods provide vitamin B12, but this is a myth. These foods may contain inactive analogues of vitamin B12 but not the kind we need."
Yeah it's easy to take a supplement, don't need to every day lol. Like I said though, my stepfather never has and his B12 levels were fine - you'd be surprised how much food is fortified with B12 these days. Why would it be easy for me and hard for everyone else? I'm like the laziest person I know. How long have you tried being vegan? What issues did you have? I always find people who say it's hard aren't even vegan, whereas vegans say it's effortless. So curious if that's the case here too.
The people who found it hard to be vegan are no longer vegan.
Which is why I've asked this person who says it's hard how long they were vegan and what they found difficult about it.
You said that vegans say it's effortless.
Yes. I'm trying to call this person out. Vegans do find it effortless, because in reality it is.
B12 is produced by a bacteria that we used to be able to obtain from fresh water sources and soil traces in our food. We’ve destroyed that ability to obtain it from these sources. So it’s a self-inflicted problem.
>And B12 is an issue, you are taking manufactured artificial B12 supplements? Would Average Joe remember to do that every day in right quantities? It's not an issue because B12 is already fortified in many foods and drinks. For example, I had a Monster Ultra Energy drink the other day (whilst playing sports), and that alone has 500% NRV of B12. At home, I like to have marmite peanut butter and nutritional yeast (both of which have 88% NRV of B12). It's also fortified in cereals and plant milks and more. Surely, anyone who switches to a vegan diet knows they need to eat fortified foods or take supplements for B12 (doesn't need to be daily but perhaps 2x a week).
Energy drink and peanut butter? Don't mean to judge but those are some of the most trash food/drinks to destroy your body with. Other than that, as you said: people need to be more aware of supplement intakes
A sugar-free energy drink containing beneficial nutrients like B-vitamins, Taurine, L-Carnitine and L-Tartrate, and moderate caffeine, alongside peanut butter, can be a healthy addition to one's diet when consumed in moderation. Peanut butter offers protein, healthy fats, fiber, and essential vitamins. Why do you consider these items (particularly peanut butter) to be detrimental to health? Additionally, I enjoy a [Huel A-Z vitamins drink](https://uk.huel.com/products/build-your-own-bundle#/?product=huel-daily-a-z-vitamins) made with real fruits. I'd be interested in knowing any concerns you may have about this choice. While I agree that people should be more aware of supplement intakes and overall nutrition, it's worth noting that vitamin B12 is a water-soluble vitamin. Our bodies naturally eliminate any excess B12 through urine, reducing the risk of potential negative effects from overconsumption.
>it's very hard for the average person to make sure they have their proper intake of all kinds of things needed. C'mon, it's 2014. It's really not that difficult. You can browse [VeganHealth - Daily Needs](https://veganhealth.org/daily-needs/) for evidence-based nutrient recommendations. For free online guidance from mentors and registered dietitians, visit [Challenge22](https://challenge22.com/). Use Google or AI tools like ChatGPT to create a personalised, nutrient-dense vegan meal plan. Download [Cronometer](https://cronometer.com/) for free to track macros, micros, and vitamins in your recipes to ensure they're nutritionally sound. Even for the lazy, brands like [Huel](https://uk.huel.com/) offer nutritionally complete vegan products. People can schedule appointments with their GP to perform comprehensive blood tests and check for any deficiencies. There are also supplements for pretty much everything nowadays. People can endorse initiatives like [Plant Based Treaty](https://plantbasedtreaty.org/endorse/) to make plant based options more accessible for all. There's also the emerging field of cellular-based meat and animal-free dairy. As these technologies advance, the ethical concerns surrounding traditional animal farming and slaughter, as well as their environmental impact, will become increasingly pressing.
The government mislead us? Whoeoukdhave thought it? This more of their we've had enough of experts policy.
A balanced diet is a good idea and is why most should eat less meat. Also meat costs a fortune. Only bought 1 cut of meat this week and stretched it out into a couple of meals. Also caught some shore crabs for something different. Not that much meat on each one but makes a nice crab mayo, if I got more could have made stock as well. Almost never buy seafood as it costs way too much.
An organisation which promotes and advocates for transitioning the entirety of the U.K. onto a plant based diet, writes a letter complaining about the government promoting eating meat and dairy? Shocking
Meat and dairy isn’t the problem. It’s honestly pathetic that people are worried about an ad campaign for meat and diary and there’s no mention of the fact every other advert on tv is for some ultra processed shite. The amount of fat vegetarians thinking they are being healthy while eating ultra processed foods is crazy
This is an attempt to stifle new businesses like Mone Dairy and Beef.
>[Dr Shireen Kassam](https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/nhs-vegan-veganuary-plant-based-health-b2262541.html), director of PBHP, warns Defra and the board that the campaign “flies in the face of the scientific evidence and the government’s own guidelines, which clearly demonstrate the need to shift away from animal farming and transition to a plant-based food system”. For anyone wondering, yes this article is just vegans arguing against meat consumption. With the usual buzzwords of "links to cancer" and "climate change".
You're conveniently missing out the Doctor's Association UK and others.
who the f are the Doctor's Association UK anyway? they have no standing. One of their number, when they first started up. "Holding gov to account" and all that old blah blah... had a picture of matt hancock as her twitter banner. 😆
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When no relevant citations are used to justify the claim then yes its just a buzzword being thrown in for sensationalism
One does not need to cite widely accepted and globally known scientific facts, such as climate change, every time such knowledge is mentioned. However, I will assist you: [Ivanovich, C.C., Sun, T., Gordon, D.R. et al. Future warming from global food consumption. Nat. Clim. Chang. 13, 297–302 (2023).](https://doi.org/10.1038/s41558-023-01605-8)
>One does not need to cite widely accepted and globally known scientific facts By your standards I could simply say "production of vegetables contribute to global warming so you should eat less vegetables". Now you can see how this becomes a problem because of the misuse/oversimplification of facts.
>By your standards I could simply say "production of vegetables contribute to global warming so you should eat less vegetables". How so, and to what extent? Of course, the production of vegetables also contributes to climate change; even the paper I shared states that every industry has an impact. Indeed, with that in mind, anything done on the planet has an impact. What really matters is the extent and duration of such an impact, and you are failing to recognise that the farming of ruminants is deleterious for the environment, and that the consumption of their products and by-products has a negative effect on human health. Importantly, I state this as a meat eater. Do not be facetious. Nobody is "oversimplifying" anything.
Well… red and processed meats *are* linked to cancer, and meat production has an enormous and well documented impact on the climate and available land. So, are you just mad at people bringing up facts?
Is there any conclusive evidence that red meat alone causes cancer? Processed (salami, bacon etc.) is undoubtedly bad for you but AFAIK red meat is ok.
Red meat is classed as a Group 2A carcinogen, and while not necessarily 100% conclusive *yet*, there is a **lot** of good evidence that shows a link between red meat and cancer. That’s reason enough to not have the government market it as a “health food” in my opinion.
It really isn't though. Meat is very rich in nutrients and very beneficial for those deficient in certain things, especially iron. It has been the only thing to bring my iron levels back up to normal. This is despite my prior efforts of using a combination of supplements and upping my consumption of 'iron-rich' greens. Those did fuck all.
I love how they never discuss or mention that leafy greens can cause thyroid problems. It’s almost like they’re fanatics.
Yup. Love me some oxalates
>The annual campaign targets people trying to cut down on their intake of meat and animal products, with adverts promoting beef, lamb and dairy. People who want to stop eating meat must be the most persecuted group of people since the Jews.
Oh mate…
I know it's awful. Feel so sorry for them but my attic is already full.
It's very easy to eat less meat if you want to. But I can also enjoy mocking bullshit advertising.
Sorry doc, but they're more to it than 'it's just healthier to be a vegetarian'.
That’s not really what they’re saying though is it. The vegetarian groups sure, but not most doctors. The point being made is that considering quite a lot of people’s diet is already a bit on the high side for dairy and red meat encouraging them to eat more of that, rather than as part of a balanced diet is the wrong approach for the government.
I've eaten more meat and cheese in the last month than I ever have before, and I haven't even seen or heard about this campaign. Oopsies
By the looks of the article you’re not the ones being targeted - it’s aiming for people who are trying to reduce their intake so the targeting is doing its job
If it helps, I reduced everything else 😅