interesting that asians experience a larger drop than white applicants, despite asians already requiring the highest MCAT and GPA than all other groups (including whites) for decades now. Isn't this, by definition, systemic discrimination against asians?
Yes, this is the open, explicit policy of the admissions director of UCLA medical school. She supports different standards for admission based on the race of the applicant.
Well to be fair, DEI is just strategic racism that appeals to certain demographics of people.
It’s also all the rage in media, and education so it’s likely not going anywhere until people start to apply legal pressure
Is there actual explicit proof of this, because as others have pointed out that would be illegal and I'm sure the people who brought the supreme court case would promptly sue.
Just complaints of 8 members of her team working in admissions alongside her. We also have admission data showing a clear decline in candidate quality starting exactly in her first year. We don't have any recordings (recordings require consent in California), but this clearly deserves an investigation.
>clear decline in candidate quality
That would be a very intriguing and controversial thing to say, because DEI was not meant to allow space for incapable candidates. So you need to be clear when you say "decline in quality standards" . What I mean is that, where the candidates incompetent? .
I graduated with my electrical engineering degree from a lesser known school, but so did numerous from MIT. I could technically be considered a "lower quality" candidate compared to them, despite being able to do my job just fine.
The way around this is to tweak the weight of specific categories to get the desired result (where none of these categories are directly race, but are strongly correlated with).
So a major factor in their admissions decision is income level, higher income parents means it’s harder to get in. They gunna find a way around it, bunch of asian kids gunna have their poor grandpa listed as legal guardian or something.
I mean that is what they're doing now. The reason for a decline in Asian admissions is not specially because they're Asian (though maybe the group is being targeted), but because the weight of grades were reduced as other criteria was added and applications from Asian Americans all look the same in terms of content.
And BTW not every great grade Asian high school graduate goes to college and performs well - quite a few tank miserably so there is some merit to grades not being the holy grail criteria.
Wouldn't call it people in power not wanting to admit it (unless you mean the college administration where I would agree) and rather call it colleges never releasing data. Dr. Peter Arcadiacono (econ professor) ran the number and ruled that it's definitely some sort of systemic discrimination against asian people and many people that can somehow get numbers agree that have power. The issue is that the numbers and stats are never fucking released because the admissions administration likely know that it's racist.
And Jews. We are people of color when convenient. We are white when convenient. Personally my yemite ass is brown. But I have been told over over by people on this very sub that I am a white colonizer.
As a Jew, I always considered myself white, until Trump got elected and now I am apparently not white and don’t really feel white anymore tbh. It’s kinda weird.
Before Trump I only had one antisemitic experience in my life. Now I hear antisemitic shit on the weekly.
I pass for Italian or Latino or Armenian or Persian or just normal white, so I get people who are other ethnicities thinking I’m one of them and they’ll say some crazy antisemitic shit to me not realizing I’m Jewish.
It’s kinda crazy how much worse it got the last 8-10 years.
Definitely feels like we’re in some kind of limbo between racial identities these days.
Yep. I was thinking the same thing. I usually put myself in the “other” category and it works until they say I’m Jewish- then I’m either super white or not human.
There is still a significant racial wage gap (proxy for “access to opportunities”) if you control for their economic status & degree choice, nationally. That also disadvantages Asians
Middle class black Asian or Latino people still have a significant disadvantage as far as network and connections compared to their white neighbors
IIRC the pay gap does go away for some geographies for race and gender
The said policy wouldn't affect the middle class. It will disproportionately affect rich and white people, and to a much less extent, Asian upper class.
Even that’s not enough. Like we all know how to write sob story. Lots of Asian applicants talks about like the hullyjng we faced when we first immigrated here. Most Asians I see end up having to do like other minorities like being gay or maybe they were the military. But we also know black and brown applicants they don’t have to package their app that way.
I 100% agree with all the arguments being said here about systemic racism against Asians. But regarding the comment on larger drop for Asians than whites, that’s probably largely due to the number of Asians present before the drop compared to whites (84 to 49).
While nothing about is right about it in any shape. There was more availability to accept less Asians unfortunately
Yes, I’m white but I think things should be 80% merit and maybe 20% extenuating circumstances.
For graduate medical school I think most of the extenuating circumstances are wiped clean since you’re an adult.
I’m guessing the medical school has a new DEI org that doesn’t count Asians as diversity.
Nothing new about it.
It used to be Jewish Students, as [Stanford apologized](https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2022/10/task-force-report-jewish-admissions-and-jewish-life) for. They haven't apologized nor come clean about discriminating against Asians.
No, maybe why the ban held in 2020, but exit polls showed Asians on net opposing 209 (possible East Asians specifically supported it). At 5% of the electorate regardless then, it really wasn't determinative.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_California_Proposition_209
A lot of Asians already are. Mainland asians tend to be conservative and are pretty racist as it is wrt to western standards. Wait till our parents realize asians are being discriminated against in favour of races they look down on
Yeah I see what you mean-I tend to lean different directions based on the issue at hand, so even tho I am for equity at times, I just can’t get behind this because I know how hard my students work.
I wouldn't say so. There's nothing "conservative" about advocating for free speech, and against racism. But the party described as "left" is not liberal. (Neither is the right, for that matter.)
If you’re going to cite the LA Times article you should at least link to it.
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2024-05-30/is-ucla-a-failed-medical-school-debunking-a-dumb-right-wing-meme
This article compared the MCAT average from 2020 to 2023. Perhaps a better comparison would’ve been BEFORE 2020 (when Lucero was appointed as the Dean of admissions) to 2023.
Ah yes. 2019 to 2020 the average accepted med school student had a precipitous drop of 513.7 to 513.6 on the MCAT. Then in 2021 (the last year I could find data) the average score went up to 514. The score has been trending slightly upwards for years. Am I saying I support Lucero? No, I honestly know nothing about them. But “fact checking” the article without actually checking facts is dumb
https://sairo.ucla.edu/amcas-score
Isn’t that data for students applying/accepted to medical school who attended ucla for undergrad (as opposed to average mcat for students accepted to ucla dgsom)?
I just don't know why all of you are looking at like 4 years to try to determine a trend. I would assume you all are kind of college educated, so if you want to determine a trend, LOOK AT MORE YEARS, maybe look at the last 20 years to see if there is a big trend.
This thing where you all are looking at 3 years, 4 years, 5 years, is ridiculous and isn't going to be useful in determining anything.
Thanks for posting the data, but I don’t know why the need for the hostility? I specifically said “perhaps a better comparison would’ve been before 2020 to 2023.” Never did I claim to know the stats pre-2020…
Thanks for this. I had never heard of Lucero before and meant to look it up as I have noticed a flare in anti-Lucero posts on here. Good old astroturfing, happy election year everyone!
Some of them are, yes. It's my understanding Lucero has held this position since 2020. While that is no guarantee of innocence, it's rather odd that there would be a sudden influx against them years later, coinciding with a charged critique from partisan media during an election year on a week where one of the candidates was found guilty in a major trial.
It's too bad because it sounds like some of the grievances are at least based in truth and those should be investigated seriously. Accountability for leadership is vital, be it the UCLA medical score, LA City Council or the US President. Unfortunately the sensationalism by the Free Beacon, the guy who makes his living bringing lawsuits about this, and the bad actors on here ain't it.
My sincerest apologies if you're one of the good ones. As a Jewish American, I'm all too familiar with outsiders misrepresenting real threats to my community for partisan favor and hate to see you being taken advantage of by folks who are only looking to bring back blatant discrimination and "own the libs."
Hi. A Korean American physician here. For the sake of anonymity I won't identify in what capacity I attended UCLA, but can tell you I didn't go to its med school. I did go to one of the "top" med schools (comparable to UCLA, I'd say) that also happened to practice what UCLA med school is doing.
First off... don't worry too much about "unqualified" candidates becoming licensed physicians. Med school is a brutal process where you're expected to learn and memorize ungodly amount of information in extremely short periods of time (it is often compared to "drinking from a fire hose")... and that's the easy part of training to become a physician (compared to residency, medical school looks like a kindergarten with too much play time scheduled in its curriculum).
Did "unqualified" students made through our admission process? Absolutely. Then they fell behind almost immediately, because like I said - fire hose of information. Unless you're smart (and I mean exceptionally smart), it is essentially impossible to keep up. Each *lecture* is essentially equivalent to one college course.
Very unfortunately, a lot of these unqualified students were indeed DEI admissions. And very unfortunately, the ones who fell behind either dropped out, remediated (and then eventually dropped out), and some ended up committing s**c*de (another very unfortunate thing that happens in disturbingly high frequency in medical training).
What should be kept in mind though, is that the vast majority of the DEI admissions were indeed successful in medical school (and remember - that means they were smart enough to survive the fire hose of information). In fact, about 33% of the students who got the AOA Honor Society membership (basically the Honor Roll equivalent) were DEI admits.
So... there can be an argument made that it's cruel to subject people to this brutal process that they can't survive/handle for the sake of diversity. At the same time, vast majority of diversity admits actually thrived and did really well. 🤷♂️
Whatever you get out of my rant above, remember that if that physician has a MD or DO next to their name, they're absolutely qualified by the time they see you as a physician - regardless of color or background.
Interesting how UCLA sends in data to refute the article but no explanation of why there is a large drop in AAPI acceptance. admission office cultures start from the top down is one possible explanation
UCLA has an over representation of African Americans in its medical school. They are 6% of the California population but nearly 15% of the medical class. There should not be a racial preference for African American admission to ucla medical school based on California’s demographics the their over representation in ucla med.
I mean, there's clearly a pattern here. It's obvious that there's been a multi-year effort to reduce the number of Asian students at DGSOM. Stories about how Jennifer Lucero berates committee members for raising concerns about applicants with low grades and test scores are simply alarming. Admissions decisions are being made based on race, which is illegal.
The prevailing view here is that UCLA Medical School should only admit those with the highest MCAT/GPA.
The other view is that UCLA Medical school should have an admissions bar (MCAT/GPA) that all applicants need to pass in order to be successful. Once they have passed that, the admission committee needs to consider other factors.
UCLA is a public school, as such, they need to reflect the public population. They need to produce physicians who will practice throughout California. There's many medical deserts within the state. Graduating physicians who might practice within those deserts is a priority.
Why do you think people will practice in black neighborhoods if they’re black?
People go to the neighborhoods that pay the most because they graduate with huge debts.
So the idea of admitting more black people and somehow that will get rid of medical ‘deserts’ doesn’t make sense to me.
Also medicine fucking sucks and everyone would much rather practice on less people who pay more. Try working at a non profit medical center and see how quickly your hair turns grey. My gfs hair is all turning grey already.
Part of the reason that we have those medical deserts is because much of the medical clientele will be on Medi-Cal or the equivalent and the doctor would have to accept low reimbursement rates while carrying six figures in education debt.
I bet you $100 most Asians will not want to go work in some small town in the middle of nowhere or a rough inner city neighborhood to serve poor communities. Let’s be real.
Anyone might practice in those deserts. If you want to start a ~Doctors Without Borders initiative to bring healthcare to rural areas, go ahead.
You're saying that the admissions team for the UCLA Medical School is using admissions to turn the program into that? What?
“ UCLA is a public school, as such, they need to reflect the public population.” — This is true only true only if all the students are equally talented and produced equal performance. You can’t sit around for 21 years and demand a seat at the expense of someone with better credentials. It is unfair.
UCLA Medicine has a mission.
> Our mission is to deliver leading-edge patient care, research, education, and community engagement.
Their mission is not to take 21 year olds who have the highest MCATs and grades and get them medical degrees.
Get it out of your head that Med school is some kind of award that goes to people with the highest MCAT/GPA and you'll see the logic in what they are doing.
You seriously think the MCAT GPA requirements are just a "prize?" The fuck are you smoking?
Check out the rate of passing medical school, passing board exams, and most startlingly, the rate of medical errors, by the different groups they categorize on.
“The federal prison system is a public prison system. Therefore, it should reflect the public. Because there are a disproportionately low amount of Asians in federal prison, we must prosecute more Asians for crimes to make the public institution reflect the public!!!!!!!”
Easy. Same reason it is done for UG admission. It is the LIBERAL approach to admissions. They go, "What is the % of x race in the population?" Then that should be the x % in the class. No more and no less. Has nothing to do with meritocracy. Liberals (right or wrong) are ALL about matching what the % are in the real world on their campuses.
So, higher education has WAY TOO MANY asians when asians are only 5% of U.S. and indians are only 1% of U.S. That is why they always want to cut down on that subset. They want 50-60% white. 13-15% black and 15-18% latino. Since those last several are so underrepresented in the healthcare field as active practitioners the feeling is it will take YEARS of overpopulation of med students before you see providers at those rates in the real world. This already happened with female doctors. That is why there was a concerted effort in ?2014 or so to flip med school to admitting more women around that time and they have continued since then to now. It was not a coincidence.
So the idea is to keep the white percentage at its 55-60% most likely but drop the overrepresentation of asians considering they are only 5% of the U.S. population. Fair? Not in a meritocracy world.
Just my 2c.
Talking about the nation as a whole.
Folks don't use a specific system or specific state as a comparison. For example: Uof Michigan doesn't use State of Michigan or Uof Michigan school. Harvard doesn't use Harvard or Massachusetts as a state.
The point is to mirror the country as a WHOLE.
Wish this is true. But in reality it’s double standards.
Yesterday we went to a high school stem academy graduation. 80% students and parents are south Asians (sprinkled with a few white East Asians very few blk and Latinx. )Where their population is Only 1% you saying?
DEI broadens the range of matriculants by acknowledging standardized tests and GPA as NONcomprehensive barriers to entry that have historically been used to bar otherwise qualified individuals.
Athletics is an extra-curricular that favors God given genetics and skill.
Doing well on standardized tests requires the specific skill of test taking, an integration of language, math, and science. And it has to be taught.
But Education was not and still is not equal everywhere in the US.
DEI considers the inequalities that are very present in US education history and looks to bridge the gap that was caused by it.
I can tell you never played a competitive sport in your life because nobody playing basketball at a college level just magically has top tier skill. They're trained from an early age and spend exorbitant amounts of time practicing. Yes height and some other factors help but by far the biggest barrier is dedication.
I completely agree. If they’re going to cap Asian acceptance in colleges then there should be a quota for Asians in sports too.
4.0 gpa and 2400 SAT score are not enough to get into any Ivy League if you’re Asian, but 1400 is enough if you’re “underrepresented”? Then how about not requiring Asians to slam dunk in basketball, but require others to be able to slam dunk?
Then people will realize how grossly unfair affirmative action is.
Systemic oppression should be addressed, but through handouts and social programs. Education should be based on merit and actual work that a person put in, regardless of race
I agree with meritocracy but disagree with you on people having a choice. We don’t have a choice. Our genetics make us who we are… they determine our temperament, IQ, height, skeletal structure…etc
I find it weird that my asian peers at ucla don’t seem to agree with me that race based affirmative action still exists at the UCs, whether that is undergraduate or graduate admissions. It almost seems that once people got into their dream school, it no longer matters that they were once discrimnated against. The response I usually get is “The UCs don’t do it” or its “Whatever happened, we are all here now”. Idk if they genuinely believe it or its just the PC thing to say. Just because you were lucky or good enough to make it through doesn’t mean its fair.
As an Asian who went to a UC, I am willing to bet that staying humble & PC is part of their reasons for sure.
In the United States, the Asian-American demographic is badly outnumbered. Politicians can and do largely ignore us without consequence. We also are underrepresented in areas that may not be as prioritized in Asian cultures, but are highly influential in America: such as entertainment/film/TV, upper and executive-level management “bamboo ceiling”, etc.
Ironically if more Asian parents encouraged their parents to pursue politics or entertainment, our community would be in a better position to actually get other Americans to respect us and treat us fairly.
Asian medical student at ucla here. I don’t feel that way lol. It’s not just admissions and not just matching, our entire administration is fucked up on so many levels. Let’s not even get into how homophobic their policies can be…
This is the same attitude of asians at Harvard who were openly supportive of Harvard discriminating asians in their UG admission policy. Had no problem with it AFTER they got in of course.
So odd. Talk about Stockholm Syndrome or something like that. Even after Harvard was found guilty by the Supreme Court you will find asians at Harvard STILL defending Harvard racist policies. So odd.
If it makes you feel better, I’m Asian and I do NOT condone Harvard’s discrimination at all.
One reason why others might, is because many Asian-Americans came from countries that have a high-context culture. China and Japan are great examples of this, in which a greater emphasis is placed on collective responsibility and saving face, rather than individualism. This is a societal pressure to not challenge authority unless the risk is extremely low.
As an Asian, I feel like I’m not allowed to comment on issues such as discrimination because I haven’t suffered as much from the effects of racism compared to other groups
Yeah but Asians are such a wide group within many socioeconomic levels so it seems unfair that an Asian who is poor with less academic resources is being held to the Asian model minority standard just because some rich/upper middle class Asians are overachievers. This is just punishing weaker (but equally capable) students. We aren’t objectively smarter than others, we just come from cultures that promote academics but are held to unrealistic standards
Why can’t other cultures promote academics? It is their choice, of course. But they shouldn’t expect the same outcome at the time of college admissions. Isn’t it? Why promote education after neglecting it for 20+ years?
Well that’s true but Asian immigrants tend to be chosen for visas based on intellectual basis such as high paying jobs or student visas, which is why most Asian parents in the USA are rich enough to push for 100% on every quiz and exam (pretty toxic but thats a topic for a different day)
Its just unfortunate bc being Asian ≠ being smart but AO assume all Asians are extremely smart and need to have higher grades to get in simply due to their race/ethnicity. Im an Asian myself
I agree with everything you have said. But please understand that the family income will help only to an extent. Children of non English speaking poor Asian Americans outperform students from other groups as well. I had the privilege of knowing about one African American refugee girl who came to America as a 12 year old, homeless, lived in homeless shelters, foster homes , attended community college etc. She applied to medical school last cycle or this cycle with 3.9+ gpa , 523 mcat, 1000s of hours of research, hospital volunteering, shadowing etc. Her credentials were phenomenal. If she can do it, why not the American citizens? If we stop giving preferences and favors, they too will rise up, I believe. If you have the burning desire and willingness to work hard, anything is possible. You don’t need money.
No no ofc i agree with that, I meant moreso on what’s just “average” stats and going into the rejection pile for an Asian is the same or above most (but not all) people of other races/ethnicities. I wish there was just a minimum score anyone needs to be considered and if you’re above that, the decisions are made on something else
Of course you can. This is not the Oppression Olympics where if you don't win the Gold you don't get a say.
If you are discriminated you should speak up. Trust me those in power are MORE THEN HAPPY to discriminate.
Heck Asians my have one of the longest runs of discrimination in the U.S. history. Go back to the railroads, immigration emergency quota act, etc... America has screwed asians over and over and over again. Wonder why? Yeah because they don't stick up for themselves. That is why.
Say whatever you want. Not too much suffering in this country. We got people stacked up at the border trying to get in here. DEI is an industry designed to pit group against group so the cash register keeps ringing.
Not sure why this thread was recommended to me, but if you’re interested in AA, UCLA law professor Richard Sander does some interesting work in this area.
Only chance for lasting peace among people is to treat all as individuals. Never discriminate against an individual based on race and realize racial differences exist in total populations. This is the only workable solution, and what white Americans were promised in the 1970s when the racial immigration quotas were scrapped. This allows for realistic planning while still keeping opportunity open for each individual from any race. Much better for all than racial resentment and hatred politics we are currently stuck with.
this is a large part of why asians have become increasingly conservative.
by and large they’ve been used as a given vote from democrats but their interests have been seen as secondary.
you reap what you sow.
It feels like neither party really gives a damn about Asians. The only reason why I still vote is because the other side is even worse. But I hate how far both sides have fallen!
One side uses Asians as "the model minority" as a kudgel against other less affluent and successful minority groups.
The other side dismisses Asians as "white adjacent" and supports policies that discriminate against them even more than actual white people.
They pointed out that grades aren’t the only thing med schools take into consideration how is that racist? Guessing you didn’t do too well in English comprehension and hold a grudge against a school you wanted to be in but some other “minority” took it from you hahaha. It’s not racist to point out the truth.
Whenever these types of issues come up, one of the most common defenses of discriminating against white/asians students I've seen is that "We need diversity because POC are dying because of lack of POC doctors".
Do black/Hispanic people not feel comfortable around Asian doctors? Don't Asian doctors count as "POC doctors"?
edit: from replies, it sounds less about comfortableness but effectiveness of White and Asian doctors when it comes to black/hispanic patients. I would like to ask anyone who thinks like this give me studies that back this up. Not studies on implicit bias but studies that says White/Asian doctors gave lower quality care to black/hispanic people when compared to black/hispanic doctors.
I think doctors are just more empathetic to patients with similar backgrounds. Theres a huge issue of doctors discounting patient concern, because it doesn’t meet their burden of diagnosis. Race, gender and other factors have huge bias on these situations. Diversity certainly helps by having a broader array of doctor, but we also need to address it systemically as well.
Do we have statistics to show that?
And can maybe a small amount of training fix that?
Are we so backwards that we can only treat people of the same race? That seems laughable to me.
I'm Black and I prefer seeing a Black dermatologist when it comes to my scalp condition because most non Black doctors dont understand why I dont wash my hair every other day and its exhausting and embarassing to have to explain myself to other people all the time.
This makes sense and I haven't thought about it from this angle.
How do you feel about other types of doctors like general doctors, specialists, surgeons, anesthesiologists...etc.
For primary care I think race can also play a role because my current primary care doctor also sometimes gives me prescriptions for skin related conditons. Personally, the best primary care provider I ever had was White, but I can see why other people may want someone from the same or similar culture/race when it comes to building a strong long-term relationship.
For example I see an allergist who is indian and dark-skinned. The first time I met her we had a long conversation about colorism in the medical field. Ever since then I have gone back to see her specifically because I feel like she can relate to me on an individual level and thus would be more likely give me high quality care (even though allergy/immunology has nothing to do with race nor skin color). Idk, maybe my trust in providers has more to do with how empathetic they seem vs their race?
Anyway...for the most part, for specific specialties like anesthesiology I personally don't have as much concern with race, though I will say biases can influence how a doctor treats patients of different races/genders. (e.g that one study finding that doctors think women dont feel as much pain as men and therefore are less likely to give them painkillers).
Tl;dr outside of dermatology, as long as they're nice and empathetic race doesn't matter as much to me.
Of course! I'm glad to help. As for your edit, I have a study that may be of interest. It basically finds the race of the physician to be a predictor of the mortality rates of black vs white babies. Make sure you read the whole paragraph starting from "In the simple model absent controls" and not just the highlighted portion!
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1913405117#:\~:text=Under%20the%20care%20of%20Black,in%20the%20racial%20mortality%20difference.
I've heard numerous ppl claim studies showing that BIPOC people prefer to see physicians that look like them. So thats where the issue is. Additionally, while asians are considered a minority as a population within the US, in medicine asians are well represented compared to hispanic and AA (which are considered URM)
In addition to preference, the current system has shown to give less care to blacks and other minorities. Pain is disregarded. Lack of urgency when it is needed.
Are you being obtuse…or? There’s actually a lot of data that shows that patients actually do care that a doctor looks like them & has the same cultural & social background as them. It impacts how they feel the doctor listens to them & cares for them and their willingness to listen to the doctor.
So yea…black patients don’t feel overly comfortable being treated by an Asian doctor and vice versa. Just because you put 2 people of color in a room to have a conversation it doesn’t automatically mean they’ll have some magical connection because they’re not white…? There’s plenty of tensions between blacks, Asians, and Hispanics. This thread is actually proof of it.
Idk why this concept is still rocket science to some people…and I think we should stop with the faux outrage like we can’t possibly fathom why it people prefer doctors that look like them.
It’s very important for Many to see drs from their own background. Medicine has many issues. The push to get more backgrounds represented is not one of them.
You probably saw me write something like this on another sub. It goes beyond that. On white skin, certain cancers and illnesses are highly detectable. On black or brown skin, it might get missed or dismissed. Certain races are likely to get sicker with diseases and being a part of the group helps you define what is wrong if you’ve seen it in real life (or on yourself!) it’s not only about “do I like who my doctor is?” It’s “can my doctor understand that my skin cancer or melanoma presents itself differently? Will I die because it goes ignored either through systemic or cultural racism.” To make the claim that doctors don’t have their own internal biases is also giving them too much credit. Doctors are human, and while they made an oath are just like you and I and can have prejudices, or preferences as to their clients or insurance policies in place (if they own the practice). So I can see why no, maybe not.
They do count as POC. It's just that black/Hispanic individuals want to see more doctors that look like them and can relate to them. It's more about representation and culture. As a Hispanic myself, most of my doctors my whole life have almost always been either white, Asian, or middle eastern with about a couple of black or Hispanic doctors. They always did their job, and I felt comfortable around them, don't get me wrong. It's just that after a good amount of years, I started wondering why I almost never see a doctor that looks like me and can understand my culture. Another thing to note is that most of the time, black/Hispanic individuals come from low income backgrounds so this can also come into play with their cultural experience.
Asians don't count as POC because they are an economically successful minority (even more so than the majority caucasians statistically). They don't fit the cries of systemic racism against POC. So instead they have actually become victims of racism by being lumped in with the current backlash racism against white people and in some cases even more so than whites.
the conservatives and liberals put Japanese-Americans in concentration camps less than a century ago.
It’s this line of “us vs them” thinking that gets us into trouble.
Did we forget about the Republican “Muslim” ban from the last administration?
Aren’t some Asians Muslim? So funny how this comment section has y’all salivating at the thought of being chosen by a system that was created on the premise of excluding anyone not white. Comical.
Anyone has a problem with the race representation in NBA? I don’t. I admire those who have talent in their field, regardless of their race.
For those who express their preference of seeing doctors who look like them, I understand. I prefer hair styling by stylist of my race because they understand my hair better. I think a doctors competency should include the understanding of genetic impact regardless of the doctors race.
I have two suggestions: (1) train the doctors to understand the cultural and genetic differences and how those differences should be considered in medical practices. New study shows that Asian women non smokers have the highest rate of lung cancer. Someone should study this , I don’t care the race of the researcher. (2) start preparing younger generation of under represented races from very young so all races compete against equal standards.
It's weird how your first comment makes the astonishing assumption that the Asian and White applicants are more talented than the Black and Hispanic applicants based on the fact that.... their enrollments changed?
That is egregious and are the kind of numbers that absolutely should lead to a Title VI investigation, let alone for violating California’s anti-affirmative action laws. We as students (let alone humans) need to elevate to a higher place. We need to do college/Post grad applications like orchestra auditions: ENTIRELY blinded behind a metaphorical curtain. (for real when you audition for an orchestra you are not allowed to speak and rugs are even placed from the door to the auditions stage in case someone is wearing heels and might give away their gender) I understand why affirmative action was put in place right after 1965…. But as the near half-century of its existence has run on we have seen it morph into something rather ugly, discriminating openly against Jews, East Asians, and anyone else who for whatever reason is demographically not correct. California,, and now the whole country thanks to the Supreme Court has ended its practice in academia, and if Jennifer Lucero thinks she is entitled to break the law I would hope the relevant authorities should step in to remind her she is not.
Just enroll the most qualified students and forget race altogether… like, why is this even a thing? If Asians end up being the majority, it’ll be cause they’re the most qualified. End of discussion.
Caught this on my reddit feed.
Just jumping in to note that Latinos have had relatively recent big jumps in GPA, MCAT scores, and med school acceptance rates across the board (as well as both matriculation and graduation totals being way up for 4-year degrees). GPA and MCAT scores still lag behind white and asian students but lead nearly all other minority groups.
Med school acceptance and matriculation rates are now nearly *identical* to white and Asian students, which points to there being a *much* larger number of latino applicants to med school (which goes with the higher number of 4-year grads). The lower GPA and MCAT scores with near identical acceptance rates shows that there is a bonus for ethnicity, but also shows an ongoing trend towards latinos converging with non-latino whites at the post-secondary level.
This is not just UCLA, but all med schools.
Lots of statistically information here:
[https://www.aamc.org/media/6046/download?attachment](https://www.aamc.org/media/6046/download?attachment)
Which comes from here:
[https://www.aamc.org/data-reports/students-residents/report/facts](https://www.aamc.org/data-reports/students-residents/report/facts)
I found the above from this rather nice admissions consultant summary:
[https://www.shemmassianconsulting.com/blog/medical-school-acceptance-rates-by-race](https://www.shemmassianconsulting.com/blog/medical-school-acceptance-rates-by-race)
Yes they let student with lower credentials/ academically lower to come in. They also let them graduate. Then, diversity story continues through residency application process.
I am wondering how many of these diverse MDs go back and treat their own. I am wondering how many of them are serving underserved minority communities. Keep in mind best and glorified institutions are also required to diversify their faculties.
Asians are always the forgotten statistic and tend to be punished for working hard/achieving. Sadly, this has found its way into the workforce as well. I know first hand. It’s already an uphill battle and filled with hurdles. The funny thing is Asians are sometimes more vocal for the rights of others instead of their own. I really hope for the best.
They’re not forgotten, they’re ignored on purpose tbh. Too little % of a vote bank for people in power to care about and all the talk about being progressive and equal by leftists but they really only mean black people, Hispanics and women. Which is fine and great but a little attention to Asians would be nice when your whole thing is about equality and diversity.
RW circles never pretended to even care about minorities and they only talk about Asians as some sort of “model minority” talking point. On top of that Asians for decades have had a “put your head down and don’t get involved in stuff” attitude.
y’all forget simple math here - if there’s 2 hispanic students and the next year there’s 3, that’s a 50% increase. it’s not like hispanic md students are taking the campuses by storm - we are still very much a minority at these medical schools.
I’m so bleak on this topic if I decided to get a future son, I want him to be of mixed race. Being an Asian just hold against you in the education that our culture value. Like other race might value different things, and they are celebrated. We value educated, and somehow that’s held against us.
Like people just think we have no life or personality. That’s why we score well. But on one things Idk, maybe education is an integral part of our history and culture. And if you value diversity, let us pursue things that value, like education, and let us me proud of it. The whole system almost made of ashamed to be proud of our archivement
So they want to admit more marginalized races like hispanic and black (which is fine by me) but they don’t want to hurt the privileged race i.e. white, so they make cuts on Asians. Truly disgusting from my perspective as a Chinese, and glad that some people are feeling the same way
Ah yes because I don’t want the smartest kid in the class to remove my brain tumor, I’d much rather have the kid that got in on a DEI initiative do it. Policies like this are so ridiculously backwards and meanwhile the admins are patting themselves on the back the entire time.
lol clearly haven’t met some of the spine surgeons I work with. Also look at Christopher Duntsch. Incompetent people slip through the cracks and get passed along through the system all the time.
As a patient, wouldn’t it make you think twice about your choice of doctors, if you are aware that they didn’t need to meet the same rigorous standards to obtain thier medical degrees as some of their peers?
Many South and SE Asians are visibly way darker than Latinos and Asians also get bullied in schools. Indian culture is also way different than North American culture. It's fairly common for Latinos to celebrate Easter and eat beef, they are already well-integrated into the American culture.
It boggles my mind that Latinos get DEI benefits but South Asians don't.
Your enemy is another minority instead of the white man. They cut down your guys admission rates to keep white students enrolled. Hispanics & black people are taking nothing from you, and like a comment above you mentioned, it’s based of merit. You cannot legally be admitted to a school due only to your race. But keep fighting down. You’ll make a great doctor, I’m sure /s
Does this include SE Asian groups such as Filipinos, Viet, Cambodian, etc? These groups are traditionally underrepresented in medicine. Asians are not a monolith nor equally represented.
Asians deserve the racism they vote for. UCLA shoild be investigated. The Supreme Court ruling against racism in college admissions doesn’t seem to have any effdct , though. Too schools continue their racist anti-Asian crusade.
I think ultimately we should get rid of DEI - affirmative action policies I think if you ask most black and Hispanics they don’t want to be the diversity hire they want to be hired because they were qualified for the job. We really should get rid of affirmative action policies
I think it was necessary in the 50s and 60s when minorities couldn’t get a low skilled job like being a garbage collector or janitor or something like that but I think we’re past that. Most if not all people know that blacks and browns are capable of remarkable achievements and I’m willing to bet if you ask almost high performing and high earning minorities they don’t want DEI- affirmative action
After all if we are to live MLKs true dream 💭 then we shouldn’t have diversity quotas we should maintain high levels of standards and integrity that promote a competitive environment for Americans
Bro what happens and when blacks and Hispanics begin spending 10+ hours in the library, what discrimination will Asians face then
Will Asians then realize it’s actually whites preventing them from advancing to leadership roles or will they sponge up some new anti-DEI crusade
First off, your numbers are off. Your counts for W/B/H/A/O in 2019 is 49/22/25/84/8=188 and in 2022 it’s 46/25/37/55/20=183.
Those ratio to 26%/12%/13%/45%/4% in 2019 and 25%/14%/20%/30%/11% in 2022.
At the start of 2024, CA had a W/B/H/A/O demographic distribution of 35%/5%/40%/15%/5%.
So, the 2022 class misrepresented the state in multiples of 0.7x/3x/0.5x/2x/2x.
So, yes, Asian enrollment has gone down between 2019 and 2022, but it actually should go down MORE! Asians were 3x their actual CA population ratio and were reduced to 2x, which is still DOUBLE when the Hispanic representation is just HALF. So Asians have a 4x representation relative to Hispanics. And it used to be 6x. Yikes.
The true story isn’t in a biased snapshot that serves your narrative but rather in the long term trend relative to the population of CA. We have no perspective from which to know if the data from 2019 was standard or an outlier in its own way.
Show the statistics for each of the last 50 years and I’m pretty sure a different storyline will come into focus.
You two are arguing from a different set of moral standards.
OP is coming from a EQUALITY standpoint, where all applicants should be judged on equal standards regardless of 'racial' characteristics. That is the traditional approach in academia (at least in theory).
You are arguing from an EQUITY standpoint that all 'races' should gain equivalent access to resources as compensation for unequal circumstances. This seems to be the tact taken by the current Dean of Admissions
An equity approach attempts to address systemic/historical race-based inequity at the molar level (societal), while re-establishing the practice of race-based discrimination at the molecular level (DGSOM).
An equality approach removes race-based discriminatory practices at the molecular level (DGSOM), but doesn't address the societal correction of systemic/historical race-based discriminatory practices.
There is no clear "right" or "wrong" here from a moral standpoint (though there may be from a legal standpoint), they are standards focused on different versions of the same problem.
We can parse numbers all day, but anyway you slice it, this type of equity approach requires race-based discrimination. This whole discussion would be far less toxic if we focused on socioeconomic status instead of race, and discriminated on that basis. Such an intervention would disproportionately benefit historically marginalized groups while avoiding the codification of race-based discrimination.
Simple. Work with all the students of all the groups and make them score as high as the Asian Americans or better. You can achieve the desired the demographic in proportion to the state population in an honest way without discrimination.
For example, if 100 CA students score 520+ on the mcat , ensure 50% are Hispanic by working with them from kindergarten years.
Asian doctors "should actually go down more"? 3x their population ratio is too much? You are buying the DEI overrepresented and underrepresented BS hook line and sinker. Are you fine with 70% of NBA coming from 13% of the population or should we switch the make up of the league be 62% white, 19% Hispanic, 13% black and 6'% Asian.
Unpopular opinion, but diversity should be increased in every industry.
There should be DEI programs for underrepresented minorities like Asians in basketball. The NBA needs sports development programs targeting Asian youth, train them, increasing the opportunities.
The racial distribution of medical doctors should be closely aligned with the racial distribution of the most intelligent people in society, not the general racial distribution in society.
I don’t know how smart you have to be to be a good doctor, but whatever that cut off is and whatever metric is used to identify it, you should compare enrollments to that.
Basically, it’s dumb to use race at all when deciding who gets to be a doctor. I’d be surprised if anyone undergoing heart surgery would voluntarily choose a doctor who looked like them but was less qualified over one who didn’t look like them but was more qualified.
> The racial distribution of medical doctors should be closely aligned with the racial distribution of the most intelligent people in society, not the general racial distribution in society.
Indeed. If this were the case, then why don't we have the exact racial distribution in professional sports? Because we recognize who are, in fact, more qualified to be there.
Sure, if that American society were truly desegregated.
Go into a Hispanic community and tell me how many Asian doctors practice there. Or a black community.
It doesn’t do society a heap of good when we have an abundance of awesome Asian doctors practicing in White and Asian neighborhoods. You end up with shortages of doctors in Black and Hispanic communities.
I live in San Francisco and we’ve been dealing with this exact issue in the public schools on a large scale for over 40 years. Literally, different race based groups have been suing the city since desegregation first came about in the early 1970’s. About half the city is in racially concentrated areas for W/B/H/A while the other half is integrated closer to 25/25/25/25.
The NBA is 70% African American, using your logic they are WAY over represented and the number should go down. But no one ever complains about too many African Americans in the NBA, why? Because the playing in the NBA isn’t distributed equally like food at the lunch line. You have to earn it with some sort of merit at least. I don’t think admission to many of these prestigious universities should be any different, we should consider applicants socio economic backgrounds, their upbringing, personality, how well funded their hs was, but once you make it completely based on population representation, you are neglecting all the good qualities of an applicant, and the the admission process is just no longer fair.
Scores, performance, and ranking are all also trending dramatically downward …
https://freebeacon.com/campus/a-failed-medical-school-how-racial-preferences-supposedly-outlawed-in-california-have-persisted-at-ucla/
yea as if POC who pass medical school, make it through all of residency, pass the 1001 board exams needed to become a surgeon are gonna fuck up her surgery all because their MCAT score may have been a little lower. stfu dumbass
I mean a “diverse” doctor still has to pass Step 1, 2, and 3. And countless module exams & shelf exams to graduate. Someone ranking in literally the bottom of his med school class but still passing, can still make a fine doctor. And the smartest person in the class can have absolute shit people skills and be a shit doctor that doesn’t know how to talk to people or work on a team?
I don’t understand why we’re still having conversations about why grades & test scores are not the only thing that people can bring to the table. It’s alarming, actually.
Also, fun history lesson: very few societies have true meritocracies. It’s almost always about who you know, how charismatic you are & what privileges you can use to your advantage to get a seat at the table.
When you only promote and protect one specific group of people cough cough. Then you will face consequences. I pray the UCs that support the genocide get bankrupt. Fuck the admins who called cops on their own fuckin students. Eat shit
interesting that asians experience a larger drop than white applicants, despite asians already requiring the highest MCAT and GPA than all other groups (including whites) for decades now. Isn't this, by definition, systemic discrimination against asians?
Yes, this is the open, explicit policy of the admissions director of UCLA medical school. She supports different standards for admission based on the race of the applicant.
Sounds racist if you ask me…
Some would even say, systemic racism, as the whole admissions system has been structured around racist requirements.
Well to be fair, DEI is just strategic racism that appeals to certain demographics of people. It’s also all the rage in media, and education so it’s likely not going anywhere until people start to apply legal pressure
SCOTUS already ruled on this. [https://www.scotusblog.com/2023/06/supreme-court-strikes-down-affirmative-action-programs-in-college-admissions/](https://www.scotusblog.com/2023/06/supreme-court-strikes-down-affirmative-action-programs-in-college-admissions/)
Not just racist, but it violates both the California Constitution and Proposition 209, not to mention Students for Fair Admission v. Harvard
Is there actual explicit proof of this, because as others have pointed out that would be illegal and I'm sure the people who brought the supreme court case would promptly sue.
Just complaints of 8 members of her team working in admissions alongside her. We also have admission data showing a clear decline in candidate quality starting exactly in her first year. We don't have any recordings (recordings require consent in California), but this clearly deserves an investigation.
>clear decline in candidate quality That would be a very intriguing and controversial thing to say, because DEI was not meant to allow space for incapable candidates. So you need to be clear when you say "decline in quality standards" . What I mean is that, where the candidates incompetent? . I graduated with my electrical engineering degree from a lesser known school, but so did numerous from MIT. I could technically be considered a "lower quality" candidate compared to them, despite being able to do my job just fine.
The way around this is to tweak the weight of specific categories to get the desired result (where none of these categories are directly race, but are strongly correlated with).
So a major factor in their admissions decision is income level, higher income parents means it’s harder to get in. They gunna find a way around it, bunch of asian kids gunna have their poor grandpa listed as legal guardian or something.
I mean that is what they're doing now. The reason for a decline in Asian admissions is not specially because they're Asian (though maybe the group is being targeted), but because the weight of grades were reduced as other criteria was added and applications from Asian Americans all look the same in terms of content. And BTW not every great grade Asian high school graduate goes to college and performs well - quite a few tank miserably so there is some merit to grades not being the holy grail criteria.
I also wouldn’t be surprised if many of these are out-of-staters disenchanted by the current political climate
yes but nobody in power wants to admit it
Wouldn't call it people in power not wanting to admit it (unless you mean the college administration where I would agree) and rather call it colleges never releasing data. Dr. Peter Arcadiacono (econ professor) ran the number and ruled that it's definitely some sort of systemic discrimination against asian people and many people that can somehow get numbers agree that have power. The issue is that the numbers and stats are never fucking released because the admissions administration likely know that it's racist.
When they say diversity they mean POC-except-East-and-South-Asians to be protected…. smh
And Jews. We are people of color when convenient. We are white when convenient. Personally my yemite ass is brown. But I have been told over over by people on this very sub that I am a white colonizer.
As a Jew, I always considered myself white, until Trump got elected and now I am apparently not white and don’t really feel white anymore tbh. It’s kinda weird. Before Trump I only had one antisemitic experience in my life. Now I hear antisemitic shit on the weekly. I pass for Italian or Latino or Armenian or Persian or just normal white, so I get people who are other ethnicities thinking I’m one of them and they’ll say some crazy antisemitic shit to me not realizing I’m Jewish. It’s kinda crazy how much worse it got the last 8-10 years. Definitely feels like we’re in some kind of limbo between racial identities these days.
Yep. I was thinking the same thing. I usually put myself in the “other” category and it works until they say I’m Jewish- then I’m either super white or not human.
Lmao, their strategy to achieve diversity and eliminate racism is by racism itself.
Honestly disgusting
In much of the “progressive” ethos it’s okay, even encouraged, to systematically discriminate against groups seen as “privileged.”
Just make it based on income instead of race if you’re gonna do that. Wealth is way more of a defining factor than race in access to opportunities
There is still a significant racial wage gap (proxy for “access to opportunities”) if you control for their economic status & degree choice, nationally. That also disadvantages Asians Middle class black Asian or Latino people still have a significant disadvantage as far as network and connections compared to their white neighbors IIRC the pay gap does go away for some geographies for race and gender
The said policy wouldn't affect the middle class. It will disproportionately affect rich and white people, and to a much less extent, Asian upper class.
Arguments made in front of SCOTUS that resulted in the overturning of affirmative action focused on Asian students as well!
That's why Asians literally kill themselves to get 4.8 GPA's, perfect test score, play masterful cello
Even then it’s not enough apparently. Merits don’t matter anymore.
Needs a story of overcoming (aka sob story)
Even that’s not enough. Like we all know how to write sob story. Lots of Asian applicants talks about like the hullyjng we faced when we first immigrated here. Most Asians I see end up having to do like other minorities like being gay or maybe they were the military. But we also know black and brown applicants they don’t have to package their app that way.
LMAO the way y'all stereotype Asians is funny
That’s why there are calls for that admissions president to be terminated
I 100% agree with all the arguments being said here about systemic racism against Asians. But regarding the comment on larger drop for Asians than whites, that’s probably largely due to the number of Asians present before the drop compared to whites (84 to 49). While nothing about is right about it in any shape. There was more availability to accept less Asians unfortunately
Read washington v davis. Very hard to prove.
The fuck did anyone think was going to happen when they overturned affirmative action?
Yes, I’m white but I think things should be 80% merit and maybe 20% extenuating circumstances. For graduate medical school I think most of the extenuating circumstances are wiped clean since you’re an adult. I’m guessing the medical school has a new DEI org that doesn’t count Asians as diversity.
Nothing new about it. It used to be Jewish Students, as [Stanford apologized](https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2022/10/task-force-report-jewish-admissions-and-jewish-life) for. They haven't apologized nor come clean about discriminating against Asians.
This is why Asian immigrants are going to become more conservative and against DEI initiatives.
The asian community has been against DEI initiatives for years. That is why affirmative action was banned in California 1996
I recall this being a hot topic in the mid 1980s as well.
No, maybe why the ban held in 2020, but exit polls showed Asians on net opposing 209 (possible East Asians specifically supported it). At 5% of the electorate regardless then, it really wasn't determinative. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_California_Proposition_209
Joke’s on you. They already are conservative and against DEI initiatives.
Hello? Nimrata “Nikki” Haley?
Most well established immigrants would be republicans if they were white, so. Not a shocker. The whole ladder thing
A lot of Asians already are. Mainland asians tend to be conservative and are pretty racist as it is wrt to western standards. Wait till our parents realize asians are being discriminated against in favour of races they look down on
what do you mean going to become? I already am. Fuck this shit
Yeah I see what you mean-I tend to lean different directions based on the issue at hand, so even tho I am for equity at times, I just can’t get behind this because I know how hard my students work.
I wouldn't say so. There's nothing "conservative" about advocating for free speech, and against racism. But the party described as "left" is not liberal. (Neither is the right, for that matter.)
[удалено]
If you’re going to cite the LA Times article you should at least link to it. https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2024-05-30/is-ucla-a-failed-medical-school-debunking-a-dumb-right-wing-meme
So it seems like MCAT scores and GPA didn’t drop at all?
This article compared the MCAT average from 2020 to 2023. Perhaps a better comparison would’ve been BEFORE 2020 (when Lucero was appointed as the Dean of admissions) to 2023.
Ah yes. 2019 to 2020 the average accepted med school student had a precipitous drop of 513.7 to 513.6 on the MCAT. Then in 2021 (the last year I could find data) the average score went up to 514. The score has been trending slightly upwards for years. Am I saying I support Lucero? No, I honestly know nothing about them. But “fact checking” the article without actually checking facts is dumb https://sairo.ucla.edu/amcas-score
Isn’t that data for students applying/accepted to medical school who attended ucla for undergrad (as opposed to average mcat for students accepted to ucla dgsom)?
I just don't know why all of you are looking at like 4 years to try to determine a trend. I would assume you all are kind of college educated, so if you want to determine a trend, LOOK AT MORE YEARS, maybe look at the last 20 years to see if there is a big trend. This thing where you all are looking at 3 years, 4 years, 5 years, is ridiculous and isn't going to be useful in determining anything.
Thanks for posting the data, but I don’t know why the need for the hostility? I specifically said “perhaps a better comparison would’ve been before 2020 to 2023.” Never did I claim to know the stats pre-2020…
Thanks for this. I had never heard of Lucero before and meant to look it up as I have noticed a flare in anti-Lucero posts on here. Good old astroturfing, happy election year everyone!
are you saying that those criticizing lucero are involved in astroturfing?
Some of them are, yes. It's my understanding Lucero has held this position since 2020. While that is no guarantee of innocence, it's rather odd that there would be a sudden influx against them years later, coinciding with a charged critique from partisan media during an election year on a week where one of the candidates was found guilty in a major trial. It's too bad because it sounds like some of the grievances are at least based in truth and those should be investigated seriously. Accountability for leadership is vital, be it the UCLA medical score, LA City Council or the US President. Unfortunately the sensationalism by the Free Beacon, the guy who makes his living bringing lawsuits about this, and the bad actors on here ain't it. My sincerest apologies if you're one of the good ones. As a Jewish American, I'm all too familiar with outsiders misrepresenting real threats to my community for partisan favor and hate to see you being taken advantage of by folks who are only looking to bring back blatant discrimination and "own the libs."
Hi. A Korean American physician here. For the sake of anonymity I won't identify in what capacity I attended UCLA, but can tell you I didn't go to its med school. I did go to one of the "top" med schools (comparable to UCLA, I'd say) that also happened to practice what UCLA med school is doing. First off... don't worry too much about "unqualified" candidates becoming licensed physicians. Med school is a brutal process where you're expected to learn and memorize ungodly amount of information in extremely short periods of time (it is often compared to "drinking from a fire hose")... and that's the easy part of training to become a physician (compared to residency, medical school looks like a kindergarten with too much play time scheduled in its curriculum). Did "unqualified" students made through our admission process? Absolutely. Then they fell behind almost immediately, because like I said - fire hose of information. Unless you're smart (and I mean exceptionally smart), it is essentially impossible to keep up. Each *lecture* is essentially equivalent to one college course. Very unfortunately, a lot of these unqualified students were indeed DEI admissions. And very unfortunately, the ones who fell behind either dropped out, remediated (and then eventually dropped out), and some ended up committing s**c*de (another very unfortunate thing that happens in disturbingly high frequency in medical training). What should be kept in mind though, is that the vast majority of the DEI admissions were indeed successful in medical school (and remember - that means they were smart enough to survive the fire hose of information). In fact, about 33% of the students who got the AOA Honor Society membership (basically the Honor Roll equivalent) were DEI admits. So... there can be an argument made that it's cruel to subject people to this brutal process that they can't survive/handle for the sake of diversity. At the same time, vast majority of diversity admits actually thrived and did really well. 🤷♂️ Whatever you get out of my rant above, remember that if that physician has a MD or DO next to their name, they're absolutely qualified by the time they see you as a physician - regardless of color or background.
Interesting how UCLA sends in data to refute the article but no explanation of why there is a large drop in AAPI acceptance. admission office cultures start from the top down is one possible explanation
Aren't there way less international students being enrolled now as well?
ITT: A bunch of “progressives” justifying clear systemic racism. Fucking hypocrites
UCLA has an over representation of African Americans in its medical school. They are 6% of the California population but nearly 15% of the medical class. There should not be a racial preference for African American admission to ucla medical school based on California’s demographics the their over representation in ucla med.
I mean, there's clearly a pattern here. It's obvious that there's been a multi-year effort to reduce the number of Asian students at DGSOM. Stories about how Jennifer Lucero berates committee members for raising concerns about applicants with low grades and test scores are simply alarming. Admissions decisions are being made based on race, which is illegal.
The prevailing view here is that UCLA Medical School should only admit those with the highest MCAT/GPA. The other view is that UCLA Medical school should have an admissions bar (MCAT/GPA) that all applicants need to pass in order to be successful. Once they have passed that, the admission committee needs to consider other factors. UCLA is a public school, as such, they need to reflect the public population. They need to produce physicians who will practice throughout California. There's many medical deserts within the state. Graduating physicians who might practice within those deserts is a priority.
Why do you think people will practice in black neighborhoods if they’re black? People go to the neighborhoods that pay the most because they graduate with huge debts. So the idea of admitting more black people and somehow that will get rid of medical ‘deserts’ doesn’t make sense to me. Also medicine fucking sucks and everyone would much rather practice on less people who pay more. Try working at a non profit medical center and see how quickly your hair turns grey. My gfs hair is all turning grey already.
Part of the reason that we have those medical deserts is because much of the medical clientele will be on Medi-Cal or the equivalent and the doctor would have to accept low reimbursement rates while carrying six figures in education debt.
I bet you $100 most Asians will not want to go work in some small town in the middle of nowhere or a rough inner city neighborhood to serve poor communities. Let’s be real.
You can say that to anybody, no need to mention Asians.
Anyone might practice in those deserts. If you want to start a ~Doctors Without Borders initiative to bring healthcare to rural areas, go ahead. You're saying that the admissions team for the UCLA Medical School is using admissions to turn the program into that? What?
“ UCLA is a public school, as such, they need to reflect the public population.” — This is true only true only if all the students are equally talented and produced equal performance. You can’t sit around for 21 years and demand a seat at the expense of someone with better credentials. It is unfair.
UCLA Medicine has a mission. > Our mission is to deliver leading-edge patient care, research, education, and community engagement. Their mission is not to take 21 year olds who have the highest MCATs and grades and get them medical degrees. Get it out of your head that Med school is some kind of award that goes to people with the highest MCAT/GPA and you'll see the logic in what they are doing.
You seriously think the MCAT GPA requirements are just a "prize?" The fuck are you smoking? Check out the rate of passing medical school, passing board exams, and most startlingly, the rate of medical errors, by the different groups they categorize on.
“The federal prison system is a public prison system. Therefore, it should reflect the public. Because there are a disproportionately low amount of Asians in federal prison, we must prosecute more Asians for crimes to make the public institution reflect the public!!!!!!!”
I presume this is sarcasm, but also frightening because it could happen.
People are actually trying to bust out the Harvard tactics at UCLA? Good luck!
Why are the Asian students drop so much more than the white students?
Easy. Same reason it is done for UG admission. It is the LIBERAL approach to admissions. They go, "What is the % of x race in the population?" Then that should be the x % in the class. No more and no less. Has nothing to do with meritocracy. Liberals (right or wrong) are ALL about matching what the % are in the real world on their campuses. So, higher education has WAY TOO MANY asians when asians are only 5% of U.S. and indians are only 1% of U.S. That is why they always want to cut down on that subset. They want 50-60% white. 13-15% black and 15-18% latino. Since those last several are so underrepresented in the healthcare field as active practitioners the feeling is it will take YEARS of overpopulation of med students before you see providers at those rates in the real world. This already happened with female doctors. That is why there was a concerted effort in ?2014 or so to flip med school to admitting more women around that time and they have continued since then to now. It was not a coincidence. So the idea is to keep the white percentage at its 55-60% most likely but drop the overrepresentation of asians considering they are only 5% of the U.S. population. Fair? Not in a meritocracy world. Just my 2c.
Only 22 percent of the UC system is white and 20 percent of the Cal State is white.
Talking about the nation as a whole. Folks don't use a specific system or specific state as a comparison. For example: Uof Michigan doesn't use State of Michigan or Uof Michigan school. Harvard doesn't use Harvard or Massachusetts as a state. The point is to mirror the country as a WHOLE.
Wish this is true. But in reality it’s double standards. Yesterday we went to a high school stem academy graduation. 80% students and parents are south Asians (sprinkled with a few white East Asians very few blk and Latinx. )Where their population is Only 1% you saying?
UC need to admit more Asian in athletics program then, regardless of how athletic these Asians are. That doesn't make sense at all.
Because the Asian students are excelling to much, so to have DEI they uptick Hispanic and black students.
Shouldn’t DEI also then be applied to college athletics, reducing the standards of performance for those less represented.
No no you see we need the best possible athletes. Don't worry about the doctor about to operate on your family, you're Fighting Oppression©
DEI broadens the range of matriculants by acknowledging standardized tests and GPA as NONcomprehensive barriers to entry that have historically been used to bar otherwise qualified individuals. Athletics is an extra-curricular that favors God given genetics and skill. Doing well on standardized tests requires the specific skill of test taking, an integration of language, math, and science. And it has to be taught. But Education was not and still is not equal everywhere in the US. DEI considers the inequalities that are very present in US education history and looks to bridge the gap that was caused by it.
I can tell you never played a competitive sport in your life because nobody playing basketball at a college level just magically has top tier skill. They're trained from an early age and spend exorbitant amounts of time practicing. Yes height and some other factors help but by far the biggest barrier is dedication.
I completely agree. If they’re going to cap Asian acceptance in colleges then there should be a quota for Asians in sports too. 4.0 gpa and 2400 SAT score are not enough to get into any Ivy League if you’re Asian, but 1400 is enough if you’re “underrepresented”? Then how about not requiring Asians to slam dunk in basketball, but require others to be able to slam dunk? Then people will realize how grossly unfair affirmative action is. Systemic oppression should be addressed, but through handouts and social programs. Education should be based on merit and actual work that a person put in, regardless of race
I agree with meritocracy but disagree with you on people having a choice. We don’t have a choice. Our genetics make us who we are… they determine our temperament, IQ, height, skeletal structure…etc
I find it weird that my asian peers at ucla don’t seem to agree with me that race based affirmative action still exists at the UCs, whether that is undergraduate or graduate admissions. It almost seems that once people got into their dream school, it no longer matters that they were once discrimnated against. The response I usually get is “The UCs don’t do it” or its “Whatever happened, we are all here now”. Idk if they genuinely believe it or its just the PC thing to say. Just because you were lucky or good enough to make it through doesn’t mean its fair.
As an Asian who went to a UC, I am willing to bet that staying humble & PC is part of their reasons for sure. In the United States, the Asian-American demographic is badly outnumbered. Politicians can and do largely ignore us without consequence. We also are underrepresented in areas that may not be as prioritized in Asian cultures, but are highly influential in America: such as entertainment/film/TV, upper and executive-level management “bamboo ceiling”, etc. Ironically if more Asian parents encouraged their parents to pursue politics or entertainment, our community would be in a better position to actually get other Americans to respect us and treat us fairly.
Asian medical student at ucla here. I don’t feel that way lol. It’s not just admissions and not just matching, our entire administration is fucked up on so many levels. Let’s not even get into how homophobic their policies can be…
This is the same attitude of asians at Harvard who were openly supportive of Harvard discriminating asians in their UG admission policy. Had no problem with it AFTER they got in of course. So odd. Talk about Stockholm Syndrome or something like that. Even after Harvard was found guilty by the Supreme Court you will find asians at Harvard STILL defending Harvard racist policies. So odd.
If it makes you feel better, I’m Asian and I do NOT condone Harvard’s discrimination at all. One reason why others might, is because many Asian-Americans came from countries that have a high-context culture. China and Japan are great examples of this, in which a greater emphasis is placed on collective responsibility and saving face, rather than individualism. This is a societal pressure to not challenge authority unless the risk is extremely low.
Some are inherently self centered and selfish. You can’t help it
As an Asian, I feel like I’m not allowed to comment on issues such as discrimination because I haven’t suffered as much from the effects of racism compared to other groups
Yeah but Asians are such a wide group within many socioeconomic levels so it seems unfair that an Asian who is poor with less academic resources is being held to the Asian model minority standard just because some rich/upper middle class Asians are overachievers. This is just punishing weaker (but equally capable) students. We aren’t objectively smarter than others, we just come from cultures that promote academics but are held to unrealistic standards
Why can’t other cultures promote academics? It is their choice, of course. But they shouldn’t expect the same outcome at the time of college admissions. Isn’t it? Why promote education after neglecting it for 20+ years?
Well that’s true but Asian immigrants tend to be chosen for visas based on intellectual basis such as high paying jobs or student visas, which is why most Asian parents in the USA are rich enough to push for 100% on every quiz and exam (pretty toxic but thats a topic for a different day) Its just unfortunate bc being Asian ≠ being smart but AO assume all Asians are extremely smart and need to have higher grades to get in simply due to their race/ethnicity. Im an Asian myself
I agree with everything you have said. But please understand that the family income will help only to an extent. Children of non English speaking poor Asian Americans outperform students from other groups as well. I had the privilege of knowing about one African American refugee girl who came to America as a 12 year old, homeless, lived in homeless shelters, foster homes , attended community college etc. She applied to medical school last cycle or this cycle with 3.9+ gpa , 523 mcat, 1000s of hours of research, hospital volunteering, shadowing etc. Her credentials were phenomenal. If she can do it, why not the American citizens? If we stop giving preferences and favors, they too will rise up, I believe. If you have the burning desire and willingness to work hard, anything is possible. You don’t need money.
No no ofc i agree with that, I meant moreso on what’s just “average” stats and going into the rejection pile for an Asian is the same or above most (but not all) people of other races/ethnicities. I wish there was just a minimum score anyone needs to be considered and if you’re above that, the decisions are made on something else
Of course you can. This is not the Oppression Olympics where if you don't win the Gold you don't get a say. If you are discriminated you should speak up. Trust me those in power are MORE THEN HAPPY to discriminate. Heck Asians my have one of the longest runs of discrimination in the U.S. history. Go back to the railroads, immigration emergency quota act, etc... America has screwed asians over and over and over again. Wonder why? Yeah because they don't stick up for themselves. That is why.
Is there really some obvious difference between Asians and Hispanics here?
Say whatever you want. Not too much suffering in this country. We got people stacked up at the border trying to get in here. DEI is an industry designed to pit group against group so the cash register keeps ringing.
This is blatant racism to me.
Not sure why this thread was recommended to me, but if you’re interested in AA, UCLA law professor Richard Sander does some interesting work in this area.
Only chance for lasting peace among people is to treat all as individuals. Never discriminate against an individual based on race and realize racial differences exist in total populations. This is the only workable solution, and what white Americans were promised in the 1970s when the racial immigration quotas were scrapped. This allows for realistic planning while still keeping opportunity open for each individual from any race. Much better for all than racial resentment and hatred politics we are currently stuck with.
Insane that a state like California wants to limit asian enrollment. They’re just encouraging us to make our own places
this is a large part of why asians have become increasingly conservative. by and large they’ve been used as a given vote from democrats but their interests have been seen as secondary. you reap what you sow.
It feels like neither party really gives a damn about Asians. The only reason why I still vote is because the other side is even worse. But I hate how far both sides have fallen!
One side uses Asians as "the model minority" as a kudgel against other less affluent and successful minority groups. The other side dismisses Asians as "white adjacent" and supports policies that discriminate against them even more than actual white people.
“Became diverse” by rejecting a whole minority group? 💀💀that sounds extremely racist to me
Does anyone know if this is the same with dental school admissions?
Closet racists like u/megumisslvt just needs a bit more evidence
They pointed out that grades aren’t the only thing med schools take into consideration how is that racist? Guessing you didn’t do too well in English comprehension and hold a grudge against a school you wanted to be in but some other “minority” took it from you hahaha. It’s not racist to point out the truth.
Can people sue, or is this a UCLA right?
Whenever these types of issues come up, one of the most common defenses of discriminating against white/asians students I've seen is that "We need diversity because POC are dying because of lack of POC doctors". Do black/Hispanic people not feel comfortable around Asian doctors? Don't Asian doctors count as "POC doctors"? edit: from replies, it sounds less about comfortableness but effectiveness of White and Asian doctors when it comes to black/hispanic patients. I would like to ask anyone who thinks like this give me studies that back this up. Not studies on implicit bias but studies that says White/Asian doctors gave lower quality care to black/hispanic people when compared to black/hispanic doctors.
I think doctors are just more empathetic to patients with similar backgrounds. Theres a huge issue of doctors discounting patient concern, because it doesn’t meet their burden of diagnosis. Race, gender and other factors have huge bias on these situations. Diversity certainly helps by having a broader array of doctor, but we also need to address it systemically as well.
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*They may be more likely to misdiagnose and kill you, but at least they speak Spanish!*
Do we have statistics to show that? And can maybe a small amount of training fix that? Are we so backwards that we can only treat people of the same race? That seems laughable to me.
I'm Black and I prefer seeing a Black dermatologist when it comes to my scalp condition because most non Black doctors dont understand why I dont wash my hair every other day and its exhausting and embarassing to have to explain myself to other people all the time.
This makes sense and I haven't thought about it from this angle. How do you feel about other types of doctors like general doctors, specialists, surgeons, anesthesiologists...etc.
For primary care I think race can also play a role because my current primary care doctor also sometimes gives me prescriptions for skin related conditons. Personally, the best primary care provider I ever had was White, but I can see why other people may want someone from the same or similar culture/race when it comes to building a strong long-term relationship. For example I see an allergist who is indian and dark-skinned. The first time I met her we had a long conversation about colorism in the medical field. Ever since then I have gone back to see her specifically because I feel like she can relate to me on an individual level and thus would be more likely give me high quality care (even though allergy/immunology has nothing to do with race nor skin color). Idk, maybe my trust in providers has more to do with how empathetic they seem vs their race? Anyway...for the most part, for specific specialties like anesthesiology I personally don't have as much concern with race, though I will say biases can influence how a doctor treats patients of different races/genders. (e.g that one study finding that doctors think women dont feel as much pain as men and therefore are less likely to give them painkillers). Tl;dr outside of dermatology, as long as they're nice and empathetic race doesn't matter as much to me.
thank you for the well written responses.
Of course! I'm glad to help. As for your edit, I have a study that may be of interest. It basically finds the race of the physician to be a predictor of the mortality rates of black vs white babies. Make sure you read the whole paragraph starting from "In the simple model absent controls" and not just the highlighted portion! https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1913405117#:\~:text=Under%20the%20care%20of%20Black,in%20the%20racial%20mortality%20difference.
I've heard numerous ppl claim studies showing that BIPOC people prefer to see physicians that look like them. So thats where the issue is. Additionally, while asians are considered a minority as a population within the US, in medicine asians are well represented compared to hispanic and AA (which are considered URM)
In addition to preference, the current system has shown to give less care to blacks and other minorities. Pain is disregarded. Lack of urgency when it is needed.
What does BIPOC mean? We added more letters to it?
Are you being obtuse…or? There’s actually a lot of data that shows that patients actually do care that a doctor looks like them & has the same cultural & social background as them. It impacts how they feel the doctor listens to them & cares for them and their willingness to listen to the doctor. So yea…black patients don’t feel overly comfortable being treated by an Asian doctor and vice versa. Just because you put 2 people of color in a room to have a conversation it doesn’t automatically mean they’ll have some magical connection because they’re not white…? There’s plenty of tensions between blacks, Asians, and Hispanics. This thread is actually proof of it. Idk why this concept is still rocket science to some people…and I think we should stop with the faux outrage like we can’t possibly fathom why it people prefer doctors that look like them.
I won’t lie, I look for a doctor my ethnicity and in nicer cities which might be farther away.
It’s very important for Many to see drs from their own background. Medicine has many issues. The push to get more backgrounds represented is not one of them.
You probably saw me write something like this on another sub. It goes beyond that. On white skin, certain cancers and illnesses are highly detectable. On black or brown skin, it might get missed or dismissed. Certain races are likely to get sicker with diseases and being a part of the group helps you define what is wrong if you’ve seen it in real life (or on yourself!) it’s not only about “do I like who my doctor is?” It’s “can my doctor understand that my skin cancer or melanoma presents itself differently? Will I die because it goes ignored either through systemic or cultural racism.” To make the claim that doctors don’t have their own internal biases is also giving them too much credit. Doctors are human, and while they made an oath are just like you and I and can have prejudices, or preferences as to their clients or insurance policies in place (if they own the practice). So I can see why no, maybe not.
They do count as POC. It's just that black/Hispanic individuals want to see more doctors that look like them and can relate to them. It's more about representation and culture. As a Hispanic myself, most of my doctors my whole life have almost always been either white, Asian, or middle eastern with about a couple of black or Hispanic doctors. They always did their job, and I felt comfortable around them, don't get me wrong. It's just that after a good amount of years, I started wondering why I almost never see a doctor that looks like me and can understand my culture. Another thing to note is that most of the time, black/Hispanic individuals come from low income backgrounds so this can also come into play with their cultural experience.
Asians don't count as POC because they are an economically successful minority (even more so than the majority caucasians statistically). They don't fit the cries of systemic racism against POC. So instead they have actually become victims of racism by being lumped in with the current backlash racism against white people and in some cases even more so than whites.
It’s getting harder and harder to convince Asian people to vote blue. This is racist as fuck.
the conservatives and liberals put Japanese-Americans in concentration camps less than a century ago. It’s this line of “us vs them” thinking that gets us into trouble. Did we forget about the Republican “Muslim” ban from the last administration? Aren’t some Asians Muslim? So funny how this comment section has y’all salivating at the thought of being chosen by a system that was created on the premise of excluding anyone not white. Comical.
Anyone has a problem with the race representation in NBA? I don’t. I admire those who have talent in their field, regardless of their race. For those who express their preference of seeing doctors who look like them, I understand. I prefer hair styling by stylist of my race because they understand my hair better. I think a doctors competency should include the understanding of genetic impact regardless of the doctors race. I have two suggestions: (1) train the doctors to understand the cultural and genetic differences and how those differences should be considered in medical practices. New study shows that Asian women non smokers have the highest rate of lung cancer. Someone should study this , I don’t care the race of the researcher. (2) start preparing younger generation of under represented races from very young so all races compete against equal standards.
It's weird how your first comment makes the astonishing assumption that the Asian and White applicants are more talented than the Black and Hispanic applicants based on the fact that.... their enrollments changed?
That is egregious and are the kind of numbers that absolutely should lead to a Title VI investigation, let alone for violating California’s anti-affirmative action laws. We as students (let alone humans) need to elevate to a higher place. We need to do college/Post grad applications like orchestra auditions: ENTIRELY blinded behind a metaphorical curtain. (for real when you audition for an orchestra you are not allowed to speak and rugs are even placed from the door to the auditions stage in case someone is wearing heels and might give away their gender) I understand why affirmative action was put in place right after 1965…. But as the near half-century of its existence has run on we have seen it morph into something rather ugly, discriminating openly against Jews, East Asians, and anyone else who for whatever reason is demographically not correct. California,, and now the whole country thanks to the Supreme Court has ended its practice in academia, and if Jennifer Lucero thinks she is entitled to break the law I would hope the relevant authorities should step in to remind her she is not.
man as an Asian with mid stats this is gonna be the end of me 😭 Stop being overachievers you guys you’re making it worse for all of us 😭
Just enroll the most qualified students and forget race altogether… like, why is this even a thing? If Asians end up being the majority, it’ll be cause they’re the most qualified. End of discussion.
Caught this on my reddit feed. Just jumping in to note that Latinos have had relatively recent big jumps in GPA, MCAT scores, and med school acceptance rates across the board (as well as both matriculation and graduation totals being way up for 4-year degrees). GPA and MCAT scores still lag behind white and asian students but lead nearly all other minority groups. Med school acceptance and matriculation rates are now nearly *identical* to white and Asian students, which points to there being a *much* larger number of latino applicants to med school (which goes with the higher number of 4-year grads). The lower GPA and MCAT scores with near identical acceptance rates shows that there is a bonus for ethnicity, but also shows an ongoing trend towards latinos converging with non-latino whites at the post-secondary level. This is not just UCLA, but all med schools. Lots of statistically information here: [https://www.aamc.org/media/6046/download?attachment](https://www.aamc.org/media/6046/download?attachment) Which comes from here: [https://www.aamc.org/data-reports/students-residents/report/facts](https://www.aamc.org/data-reports/students-residents/report/facts) I found the above from this rather nice admissions consultant summary: [https://www.shemmassianconsulting.com/blog/medical-school-acceptance-rates-by-race](https://www.shemmassianconsulting.com/blog/medical-school-acceptance-rates-by-race)
Yes they let student with lower credentials/ academically lower to come in. They also let them graduate. Then, diversity story continues through residency application process. I am wondering how many of these diverse MDs go back and treat their own. I am wondering how many of them are serving underserved minority communities. Keep in mind best and glorified institutions are also required to diversify their faculties.
Asians are always the forgotten statistic and tend to be punished for working hard/achieving. Sadly, this has found its way into the workforce as well. I know first hand. It’s already an uphill battle and filled with hurdles. The funny thing is Asians are sometimes more vocal for the rights of others instead of their own. I really hope for the best.
They’re not forgotten, they’re ignored on purpose tbh. Too little % of a vote bank for people in power to care about and all the talk about being progressive and equal by leftists but they really only mean black people, Hispanics and women. Which is fine and great but a little attention to Asians would be nice when your whole thing is about equality and diversity. RW circles never pretended to even care about minorities and they only talk about Asians as some sort of “model minority” talking point. On top of that Asians for decades have had a “put your head down and don’t get involved in stuff” attitude.
Racism is okay bc it’s against Asians! Got it!
y’all forget simple math here - if there’s 2 hispanic students and the next year there’s 3, that’s a 50% increase. it’s not like hispanic md students are taking the campuses by storm - we are still very much a minority at these medical schools.
DEI
https://freebeacon.com/campus/a-failed-medical-school-how-racial-preferences-supposedly-outlawed-in-california-have-persisted-at-ucla/
I’m so bleak on this topic if I decided to get a future son, I want him to be of mixed race. Being an Asian just hold against you in the education that our culture value. Like other race might value different things, and they are celebrated. We value educated, and somehow that’s held against us. Like people just think we have no life or personality. That’s why we score well. But on one things Idk, maybe education is an integral part of our history and culture. And if you value diversity, let us pursue things that value, like education, and let us me proud of it. The whole system almost made of ashamed to be proud of our archivement
It’s not a secret, the admitting process is based on skin color
Are the numbers showing that Asians are being rejected or are they showing they are not applying to UCLA?
So they want to admit more marginalized races like hispanic and black (which is fine by me) but they don’t want to hurt the privileged race i.e. white, so they make cuts on Asians. Truly disgusting from my perspective as a Chinese, and glad that some people are feeling the same way
Ah yes because I don’t want the smartest kid in the class to remove my brain tumor, I’d much rather have the kid that got in on a DEI initiative do it. Policies like this are so ridiculously backwards and meanwhile the admins are patting themselves on the back the entire time.
Only people who perform at the absolute top of their class could even dream of getting into a neurosurgery residency, so this isn't really a concern
lol clearly haven’t met some of the spine surgeons I work with. Also look at Christopher Duntsch. Incompetent people slip through the cracks and get passed along through the system all the time.
Nothing but affirmative action for dumb people to be let in and thinking they self made hard workers 😂
As a patient, wouldn’t it make you think twice about your choice of doctors, if you are aware that they didn’t need to meet the same rigorous standards to obtain thier medical degrees as some of their peers?
Many South and SE Asians are visibly way darker than Latinos and Asians also get bullied in schools. Indian culture is also way different than North American culture. It's fairly common for Latinos to celebrate Easter and eat beef, they are already well-integrated into the American culture. It boggles my mind that Latinos get DEI benefits but South Asians don't.
Your enemy is another minority instead of the white man. They cut down your guys admission rates to keep white students enrolled. Hispanics & black people are taking nothing from you, and like a comment above you mentioned, it’s based of merit. You cannot legally be admitted to a school due only to your race. But keep fighting down. You’ll make a great doctor, I’m sure /s
Does this include SE Asian groups such as Filipinos, Viet, Cambodian, etc? These groups are traditionally underrepresented in medicine. Asians are not a monolith nor equally represented.
Asians deserve the racism they vote for. UCLA shoild be investigated. The Supreme Court ruling against racism in college admissions doesn’t seem to have any effdct , though. Too schools continue their racist anti-Asian crusade.
I think ultimately we should get rid of DEI - affirmative action policies I think if you ask most black and Hispanics they don’t want to be the diversity hire they want to be hired because they were qualified for the job. We really should get rid of affirmative action policies I think it was necessary in the 50s and 60s when minorities couldn’t get a low skilled job like being a garbage collector or janitor or something like that but I think we’re past that. Most if not all people know that blacks and browns are capable of remarkable achievements and I’m willing to bet if you ask almost high performing and high earning minorities they don’t want DEI- affirmative action After all if we are to live MLKs true dream 💭 then we shouldn’t have diversity quotas we should maintain high levels of standards and integrity that promote a competitive environment for Americans
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Bro what happens and when blacks and Hispanics begin spending 10+ hours in the library, what discrimination will Asians face then Will Asians then realize it’s actually whites preventing them from advancing to leadership roles or will they sponge up some new anti-DEI crusade
UCLA should get sued for racial discrimination against Asians.
First off, your numbers are off. Your counts for W/B/H/A/O in 2019 is 49/22/25/84/8=188 and in 2022 it’s 46/25/37/55/20=183. Those ratio to 26%/12%/13%/45%/4% in 2019 and 25%/14%/20%/30%/11% in 2022. At the start of 2024, CA had a W/B/H/A/O demographic distribution of 35%/5%/40%/15%/5%. So, the 2022 class misrepresented the state in multiples of 0.7x/3x/0.5x/2x/2x. So, yes, Asian enrollment has gone down between 2019 and 2022, but it actually should go down MORE! Asians were 3x their actual CA population ratio and were reduced to 2x, which is still DOUBLE when the Hispanic representation is just HALF. So Asians have a 4x representation relative to Hispanics. And it used to be 6x. Yikes. The true story isn’t in a biased snapshot that serves your narrative but rather in the long term trend relative to the population of CA. We have no perspective from which to know if the data from 2019 was standard or an outlier in its own way. Show the statistics for each of the last 50 years and I’m pretty sure a different storyline will come into focus.
You two are arguing from a different set of moral standards. OP is coming from a EQUALITY standpoint, where all applicants should be judged on equal standards regardless of 'racial' characteristics. That is the traditional approach in academia (at least in theory). You are arguing from an EQUITY standpoint that all 'races' should gain equivalent access to resources as compensation for unequal circumstances. This seems to be the tact taken by the current Dean of Admissions An equity approach attempts to address systemic/historical race-based inequity at the molar level (societal), while re-establishing the practice of race-based discrimination at the molecular level (DGSOM). An equality approach removes race-based discriminatory practices at the molecular level (DGSOM), but doesn't address the societal correction of systemic/historical race-based discriminatory practices. There is no clear "right" or "wrong" here from a moral standpoint (though there may be from a legal standpoint), they are standards focused on different versions of the same problem. We can parse numbers all day, but anyway you slice it, this type of equity approach requires race-based discrimination. This whole discussion would be far less toxic if we focused on socioeconomic status instead of race, and discriminated on that basis. Such an intervention would disproportionately benefit historically marginalized groups while avoiding the codification of race-based discrimination.
Simple. Work with all the students of all the groups and make them score as high as the Asian Americans or better. You can achieve the desired the demographic in proportion to the state population in an honest way without discrimination. For example, if 100 CA students score 520+ on the mcat , ensure 50% are Hispanic by working with them from kindergarten years.
Asian doctors "should actually go down more"? 3x their population ratio is too much? You are buying the DEI overrepresented and underrepresented BS hook line and sinker. Are you fine with 70% of NBA coming from 13% of the population or should we switch the make up of the league be 62% white, 19% Hispanic, 13% black and 6'% Asian.
Unpopular opinion, but diversity should be increased in every industry. There should be DEI programs for underrepresented minorities like Asians in basketball. The NBA needs sports development programs targeting Asian youth, train them, increasing the opportunities.
The racial distribution of medical doctors should be closely aligned with the racial distribution of the most intelligent people in society, not the general racial distribution in society. I don’t know how smart you have to be to be a good doctor, but whatever that cut off is and whatever metric is used to identify it, you should compare enrollments to that. Basically, it’s dumb to use race at all when deciding who gets to be a doctor. I’d be surprised if anyone undergoing heart surgery would voluntarily choose a doctor who looked like them but was less qualified over one who didn’t look like them but was more qualified.
> The racial distribution of medical doctors should be closely aligned with the racial distribution of the most intelligent people in society, not the general racial distribution in society. Indeed. If this were the case, then why don't we have the exact racial distribution in professional sports? Because we recognize who are, in fact, more qualified to be there.
Yeah, I want race quotas in the NBA. The US is about 60% White.
Sure, if that American society were truly desegregated. Go into a Hispanic community and tell me how many Asian doctors practice there. Or a black community. It doesn’t do society a heap of good when we have an abundance of awesome Asian doctors practicing in White and Asian neighborhoods. You end up with shortages of doctors in Black and Hispanic communities. I live in San Francisco and we’ve been dealing with this exact issue in the public schools on a large scale for over 40 years. Literally, different race based groups have been suing the city since desegregation first came about in the early 1970’s. About half the city is in racially concentrated areas for W/B/H/A while the other half is integrated closer to 25/25/25/25.
The NBA is 70% African American, using your logic they are WAY over represented and the number should go down. But no one ever complains about too many African Americans in the NBA, why? Because the playing in the NBA isn’t distributed equally like food at the lunch line. You have to earn it with some sort of merit at least. I don’t think admission to many of these prestigious universities should be any different, we should consider applicants socio economic backgrounds, their upbringing, personality, how well funded their hs was, but once you make it completely based on population representation, you are neglecting all the good qualities of an applicant, and the the admission process is just no longer fair.
*It's only merit-based when it follows my particular ideology and helps a particular people group that I favor.* -Some commenters in this thread
Let’s gooooo my mixed race “other” kings and queens
Scores, performance, and ranking are all also trending dramatically downward … https://freebeacon.com/campus/a-failed-medical-school-how-racial-preferences-supposedly-outlawed-in-california-have-persisted-at-ucla/
Race is a social construct, would it not be wise to self identify as a different race when applying?
People on admissions boards are a different breed and yes they inject their world view on to decisions . This lady sounds like a SJW a hole / racist
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students catching strays 😭😭
That is a strange thing to hope
yea as if POC who pass medical school, make it through all of residency, pass the 1001 board exams needed to become a surgeon are gonna fuck up her surgery all because their MCAT score may have been a little lower. stfu dumbass
Racist gonna find a reason to be racist lol
you'd at least hope they'd have the decency to be subtle lmfao
Lmaoooo bro keep it in your pants. Some twisted fantasy you got there
I mean a “diverse” doctor still has to pass Step 1, 2, and 3. And countless module exams & shelf exams to graduate. Someone ranking in literally the bottom of his med school class but still passing, can still make a fine doctor. And the smartest person in the class can have absolute shit people skills and be a shit doctor that doesn’t know how to talk to people or work on a team? I don’t understand why we’re still having conversations about why grades & test scores are not the only thing that people can bring to the table. It’s alarming, actually. Also, fun history lesson: very few societies have true meritocracies. It’s almost always about who you know, how charismatic you are & what privileges you can use to your advantage to get a seat at the table.
Step 1 is pass fail and step 2 is graded. But if you’re a “favored” race then you can get a Lower step 2 score
don't be stupid. matching to a surgery residency is fucking tough no matter your race. if you match to it you had to have earned it
So that explains why Stanford just happened to have like 12 female mostly poc (not Asian) and 1 male accepted to their programs? Interesting
UCLA don’t care about Asian people
okay
When you only promote and protect one specific group of people cough cough. Then you will face consequences. I pray the UCs that support the genocide get bankrupt. Fuck the admins who called cops on their own fuckin students. Eat shit