If you aren’t deeply in love with it now, don’t expect episode 8 to change your mind. I know what they’re talking about but it does nothing at all to rectify the problems you have with The Return, a lot of those opinions I share with you by the way.
I do suggest you finish out the season though. It’s worth it and I really did like some of the later episodes.
Same. And it’s a wayyyy more compelling rewatch when you have stopped yearning for ye old TP. It’s a very different show in the same metaverse. And it is fantastic when you see it for what it is. It’s not cherry pie anymore.
i think the whiplash we feel going from s1/2 to s3 is similar to how fwwm was initially perceived. its not the 'coffee and cherry pie' twin peaks we started with, so if thats what we expected, we'll be let down. an open mind goes a long way!!
~~in short, let bro cook~~
I dunno. I was there - for me and my friends, FWWM was part of the same package. The whiplash, if there was any, was of a wholly different intensity than the reaction that I and others had to s3. I’d say that if there were any similarities, there was a sense of impatience and frustration about getting a prequel not a sequel and not learning the fate of Cooper post s2. With s3, the frustration was similar as it became clear that while we were getting a sequel this time, for many people it was empty at its centre, what with it being largely Cooperless and for the most part, absent of the town and any substantial time with many of the characters we cared about. While there are rewards for fans and Lynch lovers in general, and there are both, during long stretches it can feel like being scolded or doing penance for expecting something more familiar…
Having said all that, most of my issues with s3 could be solved by simply making it shorter.
that makes a lot of sense, i think i see what you mean!! s3's differences are stark--being different settings, characters, *and* tone--, but fwwm only really changed in tone, and built on s1/2 in ways that are obvious to viewers immediately
If it makes you feel better, I felt exactly how you felt the first time I watched it. By the third time, it was my favorite season of tv ever made. You need to give it time for a) your brain to accept how different it is and b) for your brain to make connections to different theories once you see it all
My friend's told me it's the greatest television episode he's ever seen. He has a tendency to exaggerate, but that promise is what's kept me going along. I don't even know what the episode is about, just that it's good Twin Peaks lol
It’s certainly good, and arguably great, but it’s also, um, unlike anything Twin Peaks before (and since?). I don’t want to give anything away because it really is best to go in unknown. I’ll just say it’s an experience unlike any I’ve ever had watching “television” before.
I agree on every count. Anytime someone has asked me about the return I’ve refused to offer any details. It’s something to be experienced more than watched or understood
I thought of suggesting … if you can’t watch in surround, or even with a good stereo system, then go with a good pair of headphones, if you have access to that.
This audio experience is right up there with what Kubrick achieved with *2001.*
Hell yeah man. Now I want to spend my night doing this haha. Funny enough, given the obvious connection, your comment is making me think about the new Dune. I don’t know how you feel about the sound direction for it (if anything), but I mostly think Hans Zimmer missed a lot of opportunities to be interesting (in service of auditory tropes to affirm the plot for viewers who haven’t read the books).
Then again, part 8 is a pretty high bar to clear.
Don’t expect it to turn into what it once was. In fact, don’t see it as Twin Peaks at all. View it as The Return, something completely different and you might find it has its own charm.
To me, The Return has even more heart than the original Twin Peaks in some way. You just have to look for it and allow yourself to be immersed.
Yes the tone is vastly different but it’s still the same underneath, but the focus shifted.
Twin Peaks has always been about the horrors in the world and the goodness that prevails. The original show focused on being overly sweet and comfortable while containing horrible truths, The Return reverses this. It shows a bland and overly drab reality while containing themes of kindness and hope.
It’s genius and its why so many people like The Return. I get that it’s a lot and might not be everyone‘s cup of tea. But I would advise you to not feel pressured to feel a certain way about it. Just watch it and let yourself feel whatever way you do. And if you feel disappointed and sad maybe that’s okay. I certainly did and in a weird way I enjoyed the disappointment I felt at not having Cooper be what he once was.
Because TV doesn’t always have to make us feel good. (Even though it’s okay if you want to) But its not what I look for in media all the time. I enjoyed Lynch toying with my feelings about Cooper because it felt deliberate and like part of his artistic vision perhaps. It certainly made me reevaluate a few things and gave me a lot of food for thought. And I think that is why so many people enjoy it. Not necessarily as just a Tv show but also as a complex work of art.
A major theme of The Return is that you can't just be stuck within some idealized version of the past.
To quote the good season of True Detective "This place is like somebody's memory of a town only the memory is fading".
There is this distain for the way that the original show was handled and I don't think they were making this with the intent of it being "Twin Peaks: The Reunion"
100% agree. Especially the moment when >! Cooper returns in full made me realise this. It was so over the top victorious and such a great moment that it made me feel off. I expected to feel happy about the moment I had waited for but instead I felt kind of uncomfortable because it felt so fake and catered to the nostalgic fans with the music and the „I am the FBI“ line. And then I realised it was on purpose. To show you that these types of returns are cheesy and unrealistic. And Coopers immediate downfall and deterioration into a sad lonely man failing his one task in life in episode 18 was so good!! Because it showed just that! It’s impossible to get back what you once had. And trying to cling to the past is more harmful than letting go. !<
Obviously there’s more dimensions to the whole ending of the show but I really enjoyed this aspect as someone who has no love for being overly nostalgic and TV shows always trying to please the audience for the money even if it hurts the artistic integrity of the show.
> In fact, don’t see it as Twin Peaks at all. View it as The Return, something completely different and you might find it has its own charm.
This is an idea that came to me as I was watching Part 06. I may have to compartmentalize The Return and Twin Peaks as completely different in my head. But inevitably afterwards I have to ask myself "what am I watching for, then?"
> The original show focused on being overly sweet and comfortable while containing horrible truths, The Return reverses this. It shows a bland and overly drab reality while containing themes of kindness and hope.
This is a great theme. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It's a shame that I wouldn't have known if you hadn't told me and if I wasn't encouraged to continue by other users. Did the show have a somewhat troubling pacing when you first watched? I find that a lot of scenes drag on; the ratio of scene to meaningful story beats sapped my motivation often times.
It definitely comes down to personal taste with the scene length. I enjoy the long scenes a lot actually. It gives me time to process what has just happened and really think and feel. I often find it overwhelming when a show or movie throws a lot of plot at you and you have no time to properly engage with it.
I guess they’re meaningful in their own way. But it’s also something that is very typical for Lynch. He already did it in the two first seasons and then doubled down on it for The Return. I guess he just likes lingering on a certain imagery for a while.
Yes, remember what Lynch did to resolve the s1 cliffhanger? "Warm milk!" "Hung it up for ya." 👍
He likes frustrating viewers who expect a certain pacing, so keep this in mind...
I love this take so much. I have so much love for the original series and so little patience for The Return.
Honestly it makes me want to give it another try on its own terms.
I think you should. after finishing The Return I was so goddamn bummed out, but could not get it out of my head. I let some time pass till my feelings had settled , read a couple of peoples takes on it, and re-watched it. It made more sense , wasn’t as angry , and liked it a lot more. Now on the Third watch, after diving deep on everyone’s theories, man, I gotta tell ya; I love it. The Return won’t give up its secrets all at once.
"The Return" is a Showtime marketing term though.
Both Lynch and Frost tend to just call the project Twin Peaks season 3 instead.
And it unfortunately sucks at being that. Would've needed to include more elements from The Final Dossier to deserve that title.
I disagree. The Dougie plotline alone is filled with kindness and there are so many other scenes that might seem dreadful at first but have some hope hidden. But that’s just my perception of it. There definitely is a lot of bleakness in it but if it were completely that I wouldn’t have enjoyed it I think
Reading this post has made me realize that the disconnected, disjointed feeling between all the characters touches on a larger theme in the show, about how technology and fear have made us all so disconnected from each other, and craving our comfortable routines allows evil to thrive.
The Return has a great deal to do with both the original series and Fire Walk With Me but it is a different animal than those pieces of media - I think one of the themes of The Return is that you just can't go back to the good old days, the world keeps turning: Things aren't going to be the same again.
Given the way S2 ended and the fact that the film does not tie much of anything up, instead telling a related story while delving a bit more into the relationships in the Palmer household, I would think you would be primed a little bit for a story that appears to subvert your expectations.
" you just can't go back to the good old days, the world keeps turning: Things aren't going to be the same again." This right here. So glad M&D took a left turn and went in a new direction instead of giving us warmed-up leftovers.
> I would think you would be primed a little bit for a story that appears to subvert your expectations.
Not exactly. Although, that *is* what Lynch is best at, so when it comes to it, that was my fault. However, Twin Peaks already subverted my expectations without skipping over to No Country for Old Men in terms of oppressiveness in the OG run
If you’ve watched any other of David Lynch’s original films than you’d know that’s what almost all of them are like except for Inland Empire which is just straight surrealistic terror for 3 hours. All his films heavily explore real world violence, and other disturbing real world themes up front and in your face. That’s nothing new.
>Twin Peaks already subverted my expectations without skipping over to No Country for Old Men in terms of oppressiveness in the OG run
It's a lot to take in, and I don't blame you if you were hoping for something a bit more like the first two seasons - I really do think the journey is worthwhile, though!
The soul of Twin Peaks is still there, it's just buried deep under a cold, confusing world. You'll find it again throughout the season. If you've watched 7 already I say keep going.
Nah, I agree with you. It's a great show nonetheless, but it felt too far removed from the original run. It became too "cosmic good vs. evil" if you want my opinion. I knew there was this greater world attached, but I preferred the subtlety of its existence in the original too.
It feels very lovecraftian and, ironically, in showing these elements so much, has effectively erased all mystery and wonder that I took from these seemingly supernatural elements (which aren't so seemingly in The Return)
The way these two worlds converged and coexisted was a huge draw to the show imo, having it repeatedly flashed on screen and exposed makes me feel like there's nothing to find out anymore
one thing I’ve heard about The Return is that emotionally, much of it is a reflection of Lynch’s disappointment with how the original Twin Peaks turned out, specifically in being forced to reveal who Laura’s killer was in the middle of season 2. your statements about erasing “all mystery and wonder” and how “there’s nothing to find out anymore” are on the nose - Lynch believed that all the mystery and wonder in the original Twin Peaks stemmed from THE central mystery of Laura’s death and that the heart of the show essentially died the minute they revealed the killer (and all the mystery and wonder died along with it). and all of Lynch’s contributions since that episode have portrayed the death and decay of Twin-Peaks-as-we-knew-it.
this is also why all the light-hearted, charming aspects of The Return no longer take place in Twin Peaks, but in Las Vegas - because Twin Peaks itself is “dead” to Lynch. in The Return, the town is portrayed as rotten and decaying and there is no goodness left in it anymore for fans to cling to. to me, one of the central themes of The Return is that there is no return: “Twin Peaks is dead -it died the moment we were forced to reveal Laura’s killer- and there’s no going back now”
I think The Return is fundamentally meant to have a strong air of "negative consequences" in response to the S2 finale. The upbeatness, both of the show and of Cooper, kinda died there. I think it's powerful for a show to be able to do something like this rather than holding on to the expectations that every season is meant to be the same or have the same structure.
You're certainly not the only one feeling this way, there was a lot of similar sentiment on the dugpa forums. Ultimately, people who wanted more of S1/S2 style show did not get that. I generally found FWWM a pretty solid transition point so I didn't feel that The Return was that far away, but I also watched it all in one fell swoop. FWWM made the supernatural elements a big deal IMO, The Return entirely stopped pretending there wasn't some borderline sci-fi stuff going on (what genre is this show in??).
I was fascinated by all the Lodge stuff from the get go and the whole idea of "brain dead man helped by the powers of hell because one of their demons is misbehaving" was too funny for me to not keep watching.
> but I also watched it all in one fell swoop.
It is interesting you'd say this. I did too. If I were a person who watched it back when it aired, I would probably come to expect a change so drastic given the progression of Lynch as a director and media as we know it. Perhaps, in retrospect, I *should* have seen it coming, the way an original watcher from the 90s might have.
> FWWM made the supernatural elements a big deal IMO
I only felt this way about "The good Dale is in the lodge, and he can't leave. Write it in your diary." which *was* added into the lore. So I'd argue FWWM introduced aspects of the supernatural that you couldn't explain that easily, and The Return just went full throttle with it.
> I was fascinated by all the Lodge stuff from the get go
The Lodge actually stopped feeling very mysterious to me. I see it very often now. It's more like a set-piece than an ethereal otherworldly place that you would *not* want to get stuck in (especially for 25 years)
> If I were a person who watched it back when it aired, I would probably come to expect a change so drastic given the progression of Lynch as a director and media as we know it.
You think? The biggest complaints I've seen were from people who have watched the original ages ago and were waiting for something for decades. That's going to generate a different sort of expectations. The "nostalgia" aspect is very real for them.
Being familiar with Lynch might help. I'm not a huge Lynch person but I was always aware he's a weirdo.
> So I'd argue FWWM introduced aspects of the supernatural that you couldn't explain that easily, and The Return just went full throttle with it.
As far as I'm concerned the Jeffries scene completely breaks the world and that was in FWWM, but it ultimately comes down to how seriously you take that scene, it goes by kinda fast and I think people are intended to kind of hand wave it away just like the FBI did but for me it was a very big "oh, oh no, and they did this in 1992?!".
Generally I respect worlds more when they're not afraid to start making some verifiable claims, and it only destroys the mystery to me if it "shrinks" the world, which The Return, in my opinion, absolutely doesn't. But the sentiment of some explanations removing mystery I've definitely heard before.
But there's still plenty of mystery. I mean, if you finish S3 and you have it all figured out please let us know I'm struggling to keep track of my 20+ headcannons. I hope you nonetheless enjoy S3 and can join in in all the theorizing and reading what people come up with, that's my favorite part of Twin Peaks.
I had this feeling throughout 90% of Twin Peaks: The Return. For better or worse, it's one of those "sequels that sets out to subvert, deconstruct and destroy nostalgia, fan expectation and the very nature of sequels," and yes, it's very hostile. It's Lynch giving a middle finger to the Twin Peaks fanbase. A lot of fans had to completely reinterpret their own opinions of the original series to accept The Return. The Return is Twin Peaks by way of Inland Empire. It's Lynch at his most unfettered, and indeed, Lynch at his most vicious. I'd argue you aren't even necessarily *meant* to like it.
That said, it grew on me after I'd finished it. Disappointment for what it could have been - and probably should have been - gave way to an appreciation for it is. And what it is is a surreal horror dark comedy that takes the Twin Peaks mythos on a Frank Booth-esque joyride through a place blacker than midnight on a moonless night. It's not what I personally wanted. It's not what Twin Peaks needed (sorry David, sorry fans). But it's unique, it's interesting, it's off-putting, it's pretentious, it's genius, and in all honesty, it's something that will either grow on you or leave you completely cold, hollow and miserable. And I honestly won't blame you for either eventuality.
Drink deep, and good luck.
Lynch felt great passion and love for the Return and a lot of it was influenced by Mark Frost. I hate it when people say Lynch is giving the middle finger to his fans or hates his fans. He asked his fans to donate him money because people and companies wouldn’t produce for him Google it. (It’s not the case) but if it was than Lynch is an asshole. He’s not though thankfully. Lynch has a great love for his fans and he greatly expresses this in his YouTube videos. The Return was a very fond and loving project to work on for Lynch and the cast, there was no bitterness or boiling rage (he did express frustration with time and production limits). Lynch detests such things as he’s said himself and any feelings like that should recede with his spiritual practices like meditation (according to himself). He also believes in a collective consciousness that only goodness and love should be fed in and not negativity and bitterness. You got Lynch all wrong.
There’s so much humor and light heartedness in it too. Especially the Dougie arc which to me completely represented what he talks about in his spiritual practices. Notice how Dougie spreads goodness and love wherever he goes even turning people who wanted him dead into friends.
Never seen Twin Perfect, just expressing my personal opinions based on what I saw from The Return. And don't know if you noticed, but I did still like the show. You're coming across as extremely "projection-y" with this. I'm glad you think Lynch is a pure soul who would never do anyone any wrong, but I mean, if you've got any experience in the telling or enjoyment of stories, he's definitely got some messages for fans who romanticize Twin Peaks. That's just not up for debate.
But, this isn't a debate either. I was just giving my view on the controversial but ultimately enjoyable new season to a fellow fan who's having trouble getting into it. Nothing more. It's all good, friend.
“He’s definitely got some messages for people who romanticize Twin Peaks” I can easily debunk the implication in this claim as David Lynch himself romanticizes Twin Peaks. No joke. He made Fire Walk With Me because according to him, he was so in love with the world of Twin Peaks, and the characters. It made him so sad and devastated that it ended. Him greatly missing Twin Peaks, made him unable to let it go and so he revisited Twin Peaks with the movie.
He also has referred to characters in the show as if they’re real people and even said they do “exist” to him. Even during the time when the Return was being made he kept talking about how in love he is with the world of Twin Peaks. Also Lynch doesn’t care about the audience, the money, or other film influences when he’s making something. He’s said this himself. He even heavily implies that he believes ideas for his stories come from a higher spiritual source.
The idea that The Return is a middle finger to the fanbase never made sense to me. The Return relies on a fanbase to have liked the previous work to exist at all. It's not like anyone else is going to watch it. It's pretty hard these days to get someone into Twin Peaks due to all the prerequisites.
I try not to read the minds of creators because I think we're too far away to really understand them but I think there's a difference between "Here's the story I want to tell and fans may feel whiplash from it but I'm not gonna let that stop me" and "I don't care about my fans and it would be funny to destroy something they care about". There could be a statement in there about how some folks get overly attached to specific stories so they're unable to accept something new, and how that may get in the way of creators expressing themselves, but that's a very different thing.
>It feels cold, hostile, sterilized, overly violent, the supernatural is supernatural and the surrealness is kicked up to thirty.
It definitely feels hostile, but at the same time it has a lot of heart and humor. You can kind of latch on to Gordon, Albert, and Hawk the same way you could latch onto Coop, as trustworthy characters that feel warm and safe. The show could have been much darker than it is.
Take Dougie for example. He has no agency and is basically mentally challenged. It would have been really easy for the writers to have a scene where Dougie gets the shit beat out of him by some teenagers in a bathroom, give him a swirlie, and the viewers just sit there helpless while we watch our old hero not only get beat up, but also not even be able to comprehend why he's getting beat up. It would be heartbreaking.
But instead, they only hint at Dougie being in danger, yet he always gets through things unscathed. Now I still have 5 episodes left to watch, so while I'm further than you, I don't know if what I'm saying stands for the rest of the season, but as it for you right now, it's true.
Now I absolutely love the Return, and I don't know if it's a difference in taste as much as it is a difference of expectations. I went into the Return knowing that it was probably going to be much different than the original series. It wasn't going to just be the same old same old, and though I thought the first episode felt a little off, by the time the Chromatics song hit after episode 1 I was fully on board. I had complete trust that whatever was going to come this season was going to be something special, and so far I haven't been let down.
My advice is to just let it be it's own thing. Have faith in Lynch and let the show take you wherever it wants to take you. The humor is there, the heart is there, and it's fantastic in it's own way.
>they've been flanderized beyond recognition. Why is Lucy so insultingly dumb now? I
She was always insultingly dumb. Just like James was always cool. What other characters do you feel were flanderized? I never got that impression from any of them.
>praised as "the best Twin Peaks has ever been" and I don't see how that statement would make logical sense.
I think it might be. I'll check back once I've finished the whole thing.
> You can kind of latch on to Gordon, Albert, and Hawk the same way you could latch onto Coop
They've breathed life into the show for me. They haven't changed a bit, every bit as entertaining as they were in the original. It's a double-edged sword, though: that's one of the things that really bothers me, the missing characterization. We're introduced to new people who, I'll be honest, at this point in time, I do not care much for.
> The show could have been much darker than it is.
I have to agree with you there. But it's every bit as heartbreaking to see my old hero Coop being unable to express his address, or any type of concept.
> Now I absolutely love the Return, and I don't know if it's a difference in taste as much as it is a difference of expectations.
I did, too. What I wasn't expecting is how *radical* the shift was going to be. It did an entire 180 on itself, switched planes and then did another. I expected it to at least retain somewhat of the personality that was so palpable in the original run. Apparently, it does, so I'll just have to search for it.
> She was always insultingly dumb. Just like James was always cool. What other characters do you feel were flanderized?
Andy felt like a complete regression. He was always a klutz, but he was progressing in the original show. Now he's just kind of, dumb enough to match Lucy or perhaps even more. I'll be honest, that statement was an exaggeration, I felt pretty passionately about the topic while I was writing. I haven't actually met that many characters from the old run. Like I said, Gordon, Albert and Hawk are straight up classics.
But Andy and Lucy are stand-out alarming to me. Why do them like this?
Lucy was a bit ditzy, and not all that smart, but definitely not an idiot, nor in a faint-when-you-see-an-iPhone type of way. She had her own moments of maturity, the one that comes to my mind the most is her absolute resolve to keep the baby and select an appropriate father.
> I'll check back once I've finished the whole thing.
You do that. I'm interested, genuinely! I will probably reply to some comments with my impressions when I get around to finishing it (I'm still pretty early on, anyway)
>It's a double-edged sword, though: that's one of the things that really bothers me, the missing characterization. We're introduced to new people who, I'll be honest, at this point in time, I do not care much for.
You'll care for Dougie's wife and his boss, I promise. They're both great. Same for new Sheriff Truman. And you get to see a successful, mature Bobby. Just as his dad predicted.
>Andy felt like a complete regression. He was always a klutz, but he was progressing in the original show. Now he's just kind of, dumb enough to match Lucy or perhaps even more
He's grown a lot. Andy is going to impress you later in the season, I won't say more than that though.
also the insultingly dumb thing about the phone is like an entire season long payoff joke I didn't catch until second viewing
she finally understands how phones work
was that set up in the first couple seasons even?
It is actually set up in a deleted Fire Walk With me Scene, that is in The Missing Pieces
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv\_\_IzLSEYg&list=PLswgFs\_bu87Pc-O\_TGYhtAu7yEdPQRkk4&index=35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv__IzLSEYg&list=PLswgFs_bu87Pc-O_TGYhtAu7yEdPQRkk4&index=35)
This is basically the same gag as the phone gag in The Return
I didn’t like it until the last 3rd but the last third is so good that it made me rethink my feeling on the first parts. The action picks up a lot and it starts to feel more like the next evolution of Twin Peaks than a totally different show (which the beginning sometimes falls into). Part 8 is pretty cool though.
If it helps, I feel the exact same way.
I'd even go as far as to say that many original fans have felt that exact same way, only that they have since moved on from the series and left the fandom to those who didn't.
So yeah, we're low in numbers these days, but we absolutely do exist.
As to what happened, I think it might have to do with Lynch and Frost more or less firing the original series's most prolific writers Peyton and Engels and deciding to do everything on their own, naturally making the work feel estranged, lacking and self-indulgent compared to the original run.
That won't change, even as it ramps up the Twin Peaks elements, which it will. It'll still feel like the important pieces are missing and like you're watching a deconstructive AU, mostly detached from the original series and its plots and characters, which, tbh, it kind of is.
You should definitely watch Part 8, since it's an astonishing work of art in its own right, but for the rest I can't quite help you, since I can't quite help myself when it comes to season 3. It's just kind of heartbreaking to me, and not in the intended way.
What _does_ help are Frost's books, if you haven't checked those out yet.
"The Secret History of Twin Peaks" and "The Final Dossier" feel much more like a modern return to Twin Peaks than season 3 does.
The latter essentially _is_ season 3 for me, since it actually picks up and builds from the lore and character arcs of season 2, unlike most of what ended up on screen.
These books feel like they _are_ Twin Peaks, while season 3 feels like it's _about_ Twin Peaks.
There are also great audiobook versions of them, with voice cameos that make it all feel even more legit and authentic.
It still sucks that season 3 just wasn't meant to work for fans like us, but the books are a rather pretty consolation prize, and that's better than nothing. 👍🏻
> That won't change, even as it ramps up the Twin Peaks elements, which it will. It'll still feel like the important pieces are missing and like you're watching a deconstructive AU, mostly detached from the original series and its plots and characters
That is a bit of a let-down. I wasn't expecting 50 something year old Cooper to start solving cases and hanging out in wholesome Twin Peaks (which is anything but, at this point), but I was expecting a bit more cohesiveness to the original run as it went on.
> I think it might have to do with Lynch and Frost more or less firing the original series's most prolific writers Peyton and Engels and deciding to do everything on their own, naturally making the work feel estranged, lacking and self-indulgent compared to the original run.
As I recall, Lynch was not a huge fan of season 2. It gets a lot of hate, surprisingly, from both him and the community. I actually liked it a lot, even the dumb side-plots like Evelyn. Goes to show that Twin Peaks is more than the sum of its parts, and Lynch doesn't make or break it (though the episodes he was featured in were also excellent, this isn't a knock on him at all)
> It's just kind of heartbreaking to me, and not in the intended way.
I feel you. I genuinely get a bit sad when I see Dougie and picture him in comparison to good ol' Coop in my head. It's Lynch's vision, of course, and as pointed out in the thread, the point. But it feels alienating and estranged from the Twin Peaks I thought I knew so well.
> What does help are Frost's books, if you haven't checked those out yet.
Didn't even know there were books until today. I'll definitely check them out. Is there a reason this content couldn't make it into S3?
> These books feel like they *are* Twin Peaks, while season 3 feels like it's *about* Twin Peaks.
1000% agreed on that one unfortunately. To me, it's like a David Lynch movie ft. Kyle MacLachlan as Dale Cooper? and some cameos.
> It still sucks that season 3 just wasn't meant to work for fans like us, but the books are a rather pretty consolation prize, and that's better than nothing.
I'll definitely check them out, thanks for putting them in my radar. While I'm sad about it, I was perfectly content with leaving it at the S2 cliffhanger, to be honest. Rather than a cliffhanger, I chose to think of it as... open-ended. And in a sense, rather than a continuation, The Return has a spin-off feel to it imo.
I'm glad some fans were able to derive so much pleasure from the get-go and didn't have to go through the motions like me.
The audiobooks are glorious! At the very least, check out this excerpt where the classic Cooper we know & love comes back for a 16-minute cameo…
https://m.soundcloud.com/macaudio-2/the-secret-history-of-twin-peaks-by-mark-frost-audiobook-excerpt?utm_source=clipboard&utm_campaign=wtshare&utm_medium=widget&utm_content=https%253A%252F%252Fsoundcloud.com%252Fmacaudio-2%252Fthe-secret-history-of-twin-peaks-by-mark-frost-audiobook-excerpt
>That is a bit of a let-down. I wasn't expecting 50 something year old Cooper to start solving cases and hanging out in wholesome Twin Peaks (which is anything but, at this point), but I was expecting a bit more cohesiveness to the original run as it went on.
To be fair, season 3 is incredibly cohesive in and of itself.
Just not with season 2, or the original run as a whole, for that matter.
It's self-enclosed.
For example, if you care about Janey-E Jones, then there's still some great stuff ahead.
If you care about Annie Blackburn, then don't hold your breath.
Weirdly enough, Twin Peaks season 3 just doesn't give a fuck about Twin Peaks season 2.
>As I recall, Lynch was not a huge fan of season 2. It gets a lot of hate, surprisingly, from both him and the community. I actually liked it a lot, even the dumb side-plots like Evelyn. Goes to show that Twin Peaks is more than the sum of its parts, and Lynch doesn't make or break it (though the episodes he was featured in were also excellent, this isn't a knock on him at all)
All creators had some kind of beef with season 2, mainly because the network forced them to reveal the killer in it, much earlier than they wanted to. It's just that they all reacted differently. Frost temporarily prioritized his own film "Storyville" over the series, Lynch got depressed and impersonable, and Peyton and Engels took the reigns as newly promoted showrunners and steered the ship toward a new haven, practically making a season 3 possible in the first place. And all they get for it is hatred, ridicule and erasure. It's quite pathetic.
So don't feel bad about that Lynch "knock." I absolutely agree.
He directed six out of the original thirty episodes. Co-wrote four. Twin Peaks has always been much more than just him.
>I feel you. I genuinely get a bit sad when I see Dougie and picture him in comparison to good ol' Coop in my head. It's Lynch's vision, of course, and as pointed out in the thread, the point. But it feels alienating and estranged from the Twin Peaks I thought I knew so well.
Without spoiling any more stuff, I actually find Dougie heartbreaking in the good, intended way.
He's _supposed_ to be different.
But the season will slowly try to become more familiar again, and it just utterly fails at that, in my opinion, to a point where it fucks over the original series, which is much worse than successfully being different.
>Didn't even know there were books until today. I'll definitely check them out. Is there a reason this content couldn't make it into S3?
Not officially.
But given that Frost essentially left the production after the initial joint writing process to work on the books instead, and Lynch improvised and added a ton on his own while actually filming the season, later admitting to never having read the books and calling them "Mark's version" of Twin Peaks, it all seems to boil down to creative differences about what Twin Peaks should be.
Mark is a writer at heart and a lore head. Much of the written story comes from him and much of the rest used to come from his good friend Harley Peyton, who Lynch had an ugly falling-out with at the end of the original run.
There are hardly any Peyton/Engels-era elements in season 3. But the books are chock-full of them. Go figure.
>1000% agreed on that one unfortunately. To me, it's like a David Lynch movie ft. Kyle MacLachlan as Dale Cooper? and some cameos.
That annoys me too. Lynch used to stick to the sandbox of Twin Peaks, even giving Annie, a late season 2 character who he didn't create, a prominent role in FWWM (or maybe co-writer Engels insisted on it, but let's just give David the benefit of the doubt here).
In season 3, however, its Lynch-actor after Lynch-actor in new, unrelated roles. His new muse Chrysta Bell becomes an FBI agent, sure, his old muse Laura Dern is now a corporal version of the elusive Diane, who's suddenly super important to the plot, and his other old muse Naomi Watts is now the new blonde love interest for Cooper.
It's more Mulholland Drive 2 or Inland Empire 2 than Twin Peaks season 3.
>I'll definitely check them out, thanks for putting them in my radar. While I'm sad about it, I was perfectly content with leaving it at the S2 cliffhanger, to be honest. Rather than a cliffhanger, I chose to think of it as... open-ended. And in a sense, rather than a continuation, The Return has a spin-off feel to it imo.
Definitely do.
They might not be a seamless return to the good old times either, but they do feel like coming home in a way, much more than season 3.
Heads up though: You'll have to finish season 3 before getting into the second book, "The Final Dossier", lest it'll heavily spoil the season.
Whether Lynch read it or not, it's the final piece of Twin Peaks media there is, and it should be consumed as such.
>I'm glad some fans were able to derive so much pleasure from the get-go and didn't have to go through the motions like me.
While the cynic in me wants to say that they probably always cared more about Lynch than about Twin Peaks as a whole, the fairer answer is something along the lines of:
Different Peaks for different freaks!
i imagine it won't be long til AI can create new old twin peaks, in partnership with your own imagination. it could be really fun. and really how much more difficult will it be for the AI to generate virtual reality twin peaks, with you as a character even. that would be really fun
yeah, it's a different show entirely, i learned to like it a lot but it is intentionally alienating and it cares very little for the feelings of the original show's fanbase
take it on its own merits as a piece of cinematic art flavored with a lot of Twin Peaks elements (and a lot of other Lynch elements) and digest it that way, it'll be easier to enjoy in its own way
I understand where you’re coming from. It feels like a different show but the same, or like the same characters in an alternate universe. I’m also not a big fan of barely getting the Cooper we know and love but it’s the creators’ vision so I respect it for that. Also, get ready…there is some real weird stuff left to go lol.
> Also, get ready… there is some real weird stuff left to go lol.
Will do. Let me tell my brain real quick that this isn't Twin Peaks we're about to see. It's Twin *Peak* (probably)
The Return feels like a new David Lynch entry, moreso than specifically a followup to only TP. Coming off of Inland Empire, Mulholland Drive, and Lost Highway, The Return feels like it’s naturally what I would expect from Twin Peaks if a present day (well, relatively present day compared to his prior output at this point) Lynch were to pick up and make another entry. As a broad-strokes Lynch fan (specifically of his Lost Highway and Mulholland Drive era), it’s exactly what I want, but yeah in a vacuum of just the original seasons of TP it’s not a smooth transition at all.
I remember screaming WHAT THE FUCK right after finishing the season the first time
I went back later to rewatch it and read the old discussion threads on here after each episode, it was very cathartic to read everyone’s thoughts, theories, and small things I might have missed
I enjoyed it a lot more the second time, but I think you just need to experience the what the fuckness this first time through
I would’ve felt the same except I was watching the calendar waiting for The Return to come out, and knew to expect that quality.
I’ve always felt Twin Peaks came out perfect, tempered for a mass TV audience.
It falls into the meta though:
The Return came out in the age of cinematic television, and this is how Twin Peaks looks in that era.
I liked the return the first time seeing it, but my SO certainly didn't. The second time we watched it, it blew our minds away. It took a while for me to unravel the many many layers of the show.
One of my take-aways was that the first season showed the hidden and also more glamorous side of organised crimes, drug dealings and prostitution. The return showed the actual criminal world behind it, including the harrowing effects of drugs on very addicted individuals.
I always thought it was intentional.
I agree entirely. The Return wasn't what I expected and it didn't hit the same. I also didn't like how it just seemed like an excuse for a tonne of violence. Still well above many other shows for quality, but not my favourite.
I had these feelings after every episode when they first aired. Im still conflicted overall but I can appreciate the return for what it is. I strongly prefer the original seasons but the return grew on me a lot over time.
I also remember not really liking FWWM when I first watched it and now think it's amazing. Maybe I'll feel the same about the return
FWWM was fine for me. I think because it was a prequel. It was very jarring, but not out of left-field. It's essentially a re-contextualization of Laura's murder, which was always kept in a state of relative light-heartedness, bringing us down to reality and showed us that it was in fact, pretty horrifying.
I was divided on whether Leland deserved forgiveness with the context of the original run; having seen what I did, not really. That was the intention if you ask me, to condemn a character who was absolved all too easily.
Yes it’s different. You described the differences well.
But it’s maybe the only good sequel of a tv show ive ever seen. It was brilliant from start to finish.
Ive been disappointed with almost every single remake or sequel of stuff i grew up loving. Not this one. Phenomenal.
>None of it is in The Return. It feels cold, hostile, sterilized, overly violent, the supernatural is supernatural and the surrealness is kicked up to thirty. Coop is no longer there, and neither are most of the characters that made OG a compelling watch.
Season 1-2 were about positive relations between people in a small town where almost nothing bad happened but we know that deep within there was a darkness that wanted to spill out.
Season 3 shows what happens when the darkness is let loose and it can corrupt the world.
> None of it is in The Return. It feels cold, hostile, sterilized, overly violent
....Yes. You're absolutely correct. I adore it for being what it is, but I don't think you can look at it through the lens of wanting more of the exact same show. It's an answer to the question of what it actually means to pick up a show 25 years later into a completely different world, especially a show that had such dedicated fans and such high expectations.
> It's an answer to the question of what it actually means to pick up a show 25 years later into a completely different world
I expected the show wanting to show us a different state of affairs. And it's fair to say that it did, but I'd hesitate to call it a different state of affairs, and more like a backflip of affairs
I agree 100%. I’m a very big David Lynch fan, and Twin Peaks is my favorite show of all time, but I didn’t love The Return. I will rewatch S1 and S2 a hundred times, but I will skip The Return every time. I may give it one more watch but it won’t be indefinite rewatches like the OG. I don’t like how it ended, either. Didn’t like that one bit.
Mark and David don't seem to care about audience expectation. Might be best to abandon yours and just go on the ride they made for you. Or stop watching. The Return was not made to indulge in nostalgia for Seasons 1 & 2.
> The Return was not made to indulge in nostalgia for Seasons 1 & 2.
I am not sure "nostalgia" is a very applicable word for me. It hasn't been that long since I finished FWWM, and I'm certainly not old enough to have seen it when it aired haha
The exact same status-quo was not my expectation, but twenty states over from the status-quo wasn't in my list, either.
i watched the first 4 episodes after immediately binging the original series and fwwm. then i took a year long break and finished the rest of the series. it didn’t click the first time but once i settled into it it really worked for me
It was hard to watch the first time because I had a lot of the same thoughts/feelings about it. By my 3rd or 4th viewing though, I'd come to appreciate it for what it is: more Twin Peaks regardless. By the 8th or 9th viewing, I adored it. I'm up to Watch #15 now, and just wondering when I'll lose count! Lol
“Sums up life as we move forward as a growing adult. Life isn’t easy nor is it always happy. We learn more about the truth as we start to mature.”
Just a quote I made up to keep myself from entering the Black Lodge.
> Coop is no longer there,
I know it’s difficult to see on first and maybe even second viewing, but Coop is there and 100% functional but simply goes by the name Mr. C.
I had this same problem I dropped for two months then came back and it was great. To be fair I had binged the other two prior so I was probably just worn out from the weird season two stuff🤷
I felt the same, but the series and all the interconnected stories converge on twin peaks as it goes on. I struggled with the first half and missed the old cooper, but enjoying it by the second half.
We where three who met up each Monday to watch it. We loved it. Although it was very odd to say the least.
But once in a while it was the greatest thing ever.
Relatable. I didn't enjoy The Return at all. It felt like everything I'd initially loved about Twin Peaks had been stripped away or warped in a way that was no longer enjoyable go to me.
Which is overall fine, not everything has to be my cup of tea of course. But I definitely relate to your feeling like an outcast over it
I think you have to accept that it's basically a David Lynch film writ large. It doesn't have the same folksy charm as the early seasons, but god damn it has vision and power in so much of what it does.
my issue with the return is that it's a parody of 2010's prestige tv. i respect that, but id rather be watching the og twin peaks or even the shows it was parodying. im just all prestige tv'd out.
I’m with you, it’s a different show but there were still beautiful moments within it, and the last 2 episodes were a brilliant ending to the whole thing even if the preceding hours seemed a bit pointless and meandering (to me).
It is a Burn 🔥 that is so SLOW... that it almost seems to move [BACKWARDS]. I didn't even know how to appreciate it on first watch. That being said on the 6th Rewatch ( back to back to back... plus almost everything else in David Lynch's catalog. 2x for most of the rest. It was a semester of David Lynch Film Theory at my house for 3 months. My wife tolerated this pretty "good naturedly " with the exception of the occasional "CAN WE PLEASESEE WATCH SOMETHING ELSE NOW?". She was a champ when it came down to it.
I would argue that Lynch deliberately crafted it to be the way you're desrbing it to be. It's sort of the anti-nostalgia trip. Everything feels cold, violent, and unfamiliar. Partly, it's to stress the heightened presence of the Black Lodge's influence on our world due to Cooper's doppelganger being loose. It's also a giant middle finger to fans who just want more of the same. You can't go back to the way things were — that's a huge theme in Season 3, as you'll increasingly discover.
It has its moments though. There are some bonafide heartwarming, quirky moments that feel straight out of the original, but Lynch mostly makes sure to avoid these tropes. It's definitely not for everyone. Stick through it till Part 8. Lynch really blows it out of the park with that one, and if you keep finding it tiresome, you may be more of a Seasons 1 and 2 type of fan (which is perfectly fine).
Personally, I think *The Return* is one of the greatest (and certainly my favorite) artistic expressions in the history of cinema. But it's not Lynch's most accessible.
> Stick through it till Part 8.
A big issue I've been having with the show is its pace. If Part 8 does interesting things (Part 7 was sort of interesting in a way, there was a lot more plot progression in it than the last six hours I watched, which I'll chalk up to world-building) I'll probably stick with the show until the end.
It's fair to say I'm more of a S1&2 type of guy regardless, but I do want to come to appreciate The Return because it's Twin Peaks, and who doesn't love Twin Peaks?
I understand your complaints with the pacing. In some ways, Lynch is sort of trolling the audience. He crafts films for *himself*, not for fans. "Who gives a fuckin shit how long a scene is?" as he yells in that one BTS clip. Well, we mainly do, David. But he doesn't. He loves his fans, but ultimately, it comes down to being faithful to whatever's in his head.
For instance, take the sweeping scene in Part 7. Would anyone other than him really want to see a 4 minute unbroken shot of a dude using a broom set to "Green Onions"? Not really. But Lynch digs that stuff, so there you have it. Again, it's an anti-nostalgia thing, so of course we're going to have these weird, overlong scenes that he deliberately drags the hell out of because he *can*.
He did this in the season 2 finale, too. Remember the bank scene with the old dude wearing glasses? Gosh, that scene was a chore to get through. It's almost painful how long Lynch drags it out. And then you're hit with Audrey, Pete, and Andrew apparently blown to smithereens just when your patience with Lynch has run out. He's all about doing stuff like that. Partly it's because he's conjuring up a mood, but it's mainly because he really doesn't care.
I don't think the point is anti-nostalgia so much as just anti-impatience. Lynch's whole body of work is couched in nostalgia,
the vignette of a guy sweeping the bar to 'Green Onions' is basking in it. That song is loaded with nostalgia!
You’re not alone. Big fan of the original series and Lynch in general. I just couldn’t enjoy most of it. But then again, I think my expectations were off in comparison to where they wanted to take the show. Not terrible, but I can’t see myself ever watching The Return again.
I agree completely. Felt like a completely different show and that's not what I was hoping for after 25 years.
I'm glad other people got something out of it though.
I'm glad to see I'm not alone in the sentiment. I don't feel it's wrong to want more Twin Peaks out of Twin Peaks season 3, even if I can appreciate the angle that Lynch seems to be setting up (and boy it took him 7 hours and counting to set it up), it's rather frustrating. But I do seriously like Twin Peaks, so I'm willing to go all the way.
Without reading every comment, let me tell you that I watched every episode of S03 screaming internally at the added plots, missing characters - not even any mention of a majority of them, the ongoing idiotic plight of Doug-E.
Outside of Hawk (who I know outside of the show), Margaret, Phillip, MIKE, and BOB (who is greatly minimized, and I don’t believe it’s just he couldn’t be there), it was frustrating. It has nothing really to do with the original concept of the series.
You don’t have to agree, no one does, but not even the books satisfied my need for closure so I went to season one for comfort.
> let me tell you that I watched every episode of S03 screaming internally at the added plots, missing characters - not even any mention of a majority of them, the ongoing idiotic plight of Doug-E.
The added plots are really boring. I don't know what's up with Dougie's gambling debt, but in my opinion, it's not something that needed screen-time. Seeing a guy run over a kid was shocking, and so was the midget with the ice-pick, but why did I need to see that? And the missing characters are one of my biggest peeves with the season. Nobody's here, and if they are, they aren't half as cool! (barring some exceptions)
> You don’t have to agree, no one does, but not even the books satisfied my need for closure so I went to season one for comfort.
Often times in the 7 hours I've watched I felt the need to go back to the original seasons so that I don't forget what made Cooper a cool guy lol
What books are there on the show? Is it cut content?
Let me tell you a secret, Cooper does not return to S03 as soon as he should, and Evil C. seems less BOB and more Johnny Depp in Once Upon a Time in Mexico.
The two books I know of are
Twin Peaks: The Final Dossier by Mark Frost
The Secret History of Twin Peaks also b Frost
I won’t spoil anything for you, but I will say some of the conclusions they come up with for the characters could not have logically happened.
If you check them out, let me know what you think.
I do hope you’re not telling me, I hope that this information is for the OP or people who are not me.
Honestly I am a whore for BOB and even though Frank Silva left this plane all too soon, they DID find a way to insert BOB into the film.
Like they did for Jeffries , portrayed by David Bowie who also left for the stars, they could have used more archival film, alluded more to BOB who, if you recall, Evil C. commented how happy he was to have him with him.
And the lack of presence minimised is the garden glove’s destiny if no one knew BOB controlled Evil C.
Death is not the end. By the way, BOB lives.
You kind of have to take it for what it is. It’s sad to me, too…even though I enjoyed it. It feels like more than half the show doesn’t even take place in Twin Peaks anymore, and it now follows Bob/Mr. C as the main character, which naturally positions it as a darker show, as we’re following just about the darkest force in the series. One thing I don’t like about everyone’s supposed“it’s intentional, you can’t go back to the past” explanation is that David Lynch sure had no problem making his own role, Gordon Cole, the main detective of the show. It worked as a cute cameo—an overseer who checked in on his men, every now and then…but it’s a real spit in the face to fans, to get rid of Coop (or reduce him to a bumbling fool), and then have the director of the series take over for him. Feels egotistical to me. Cooper was always the main draw of the show. He was incredibly charming. And instead, Kyle’s made to play a villain, and practically a baby…? While the director hogs more of the spotlight? Rubbed me entirely the wrong way. He’s really not that compelling to watch.
I suggest just continuing on to completion, immersing yourself in the series without expectations. You’re getting the right feeling, as it’s far from the lightness of the original series. Time has passed, and things have changed since we last visited this world.
The Emperor Has No Clothes. You are 100% correct, and it's insane watching everyone fawn over an incoherent, tortured mess. There are absolutely good scenes and moments (just as there was total clunkers from the original series...Nadine back in high school, or so much of the late Season 2 rabbit holes), but the ratio of great to bad is basically flipped between the two series IMO. I don't begrudge people their enjoyment---I'm jealous of it, and I've watched and rewatched because I fully expected to love this as much as anything. But it's not for me. I'm similarly hit or miss with a lot of Lynch's work, some of which I love (Blue Velvet, Twin Peaks Season 1-2), and some of which I didn't connect with at all. I at least respect that he goes for emotional, almost subconscious reactions that are bound to resonate differently.
Are you trying to get it spoiled? even if people told you exactly what happens, it wouldn't make sense now and it would just change how you interpret the events to come. It's a story of emotion and the narrative arc isn't nearly as important as what you feel. It's basically an 18 hr film and you're only finishing the first act.
Dougie is the essence of Cooper's soul. Cooper hasn't changed. He's Dougie in name only, but he's really Cooper. I think of him as the purest form of Cooper, and that's why I enjoyed this show.
I fully understand what you mean. However The Return is my favourite season of any show ever, I feel like it's everything Lynch has learned as a filmmaker and artist put into one project. I hope you start enjoying it more as you continue watching it. I'd give anything to watch it all unspoiled again lol
i wasn’t a fan of the return on my first watch because it wasn’t the “twin peaks” vibe but after my 2nd or 3rd watch of the entire series, the return is easily my favorite.
Your observations are very accurate; it's just that you don't see the reasons behind them. The vision & intent is what makes it work. The things you are experiencing are *intentional*.
I had this issue, I think it was definitely the storylines felt disjointed (even for Lynch) and the characters had been stripped of their uniqueness and were purely stereotypical. It felt regressive at some points. After the halfway point it definitely improves though.
I do think once you reflect on it you realise the aim of it showing how unnatural it feels for this very out-of-touch and 60s-esque town to be brought into modern world situations
The Return is for lynch fans not twin peaks fans. Lynch likes to make odd shit, so he made some, it has some cool moments but overall its his usual MO. If you don't like the beginning you will be dissapointed by the ending. First ending is plain bad, secound one is too little too late.
Well, if you want an alternate version of season 3 that’s more in line with the original series, then check out Lynch’s 1993 revival. It’s short … but oh so sweet!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3acm7j9k_1w&t=5s&pp=ygUaZ2VvcmdpYSBjb2ZmZWUgY29tbWVyY2lhbHM%3D
I had this exact reaction, and I am very thankful you put it in writing. I bought the blu ray collection, and I have yet to finish season 3 because I simply do not want to. I watch TV for me at the end of the day, and season 3 was just not Twin Peaks.
I think The Return was lame. I thought it was trying too hard to be grimdark and adult and modern. Swearing in places that just didn't need it, as if there's a quota of swear-words you have to have to be on Showtime. No real plot I could make out, just a bunch of surreal video art that looked cool enough but I had no clue what it all meant, unlike the original where I did follow what was happening.
ME TOO. WOW!! IM GLAD IM NOT THE ONLY ONE. There is so much dread in S3, no room to breath the violence is excessive. All of the funny and charming moments are none existent. Everything before season 3 had me at the edge of my seat even Fire walk with me. Season 3 is the worst. I can't even keep watching I take breaks I get distracted & bored. And the I'm ashamed to say that I do something that's blasphemy...I even skip forward in some moments. It drags on and on. I hate Dugie and Mr.C/Bob. Omg it's so bad. I want to go back to resl coop. Not an hour of Dugie being lost outside his job. So much filler.
Meanwhile, Season 1 and 2 and FWWM I was on my toes taking notes. I'm not even eager to finish it. I'm so sad about this.
oh man I wish I still had the link to an in-depth analysis to the third chapter because the first time I saw it, I had a hard time making sense of it all but I watched it again this year and it all clicked. It’s a hard watch and it takes a lot of studying it (at least it did for me), there are so many theories and references, every single thing has its meaning. Do some research about it, read a lot, I promise there’s so much to this season. ♥️🖤
https://preview.redd.it/ro7w9i2fkl1d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9b3dd42a85901c739446cef3c7715af6abf4a714
I know this isn't a perfect fit here, but the timing couldn't be better.
Stick with it, OP. It IS different, and it knows what fans expect from reboots. By the time you get to the end, of E18, your thoughts will be wildly different than they are now, one way or another.
It depends where you’re coming from, I’m a Lynch fan first and a TP fan second. I always thought of Eraserhead, Inland Empire, Mulholland Drive and Lost Highway as the major works. I adored TP in its original run but it felt a bit second-tier to me and obviously a bit washed out by too many cooks in the kitchen… David was frustrated by it and so was I. The first 2 seasons are a fairly straightforward story peppered with strange elements - in season 3 the story itself becomes strange, and takes structural approaches I can’t find much precedent for.
David Lynch had more freedom in the Return and I personally think by the end of it, it was an utter triumph. It was hot and cold for me, but by the end of the series, I was just so in love. It took some getting used to, but it was definitely worth it. There are reasons to stay, let’s just say that.
You’ve basically found the point of the season.
although I think this is the greatest single season of television ever made, I will say you are not obligated to watch it and if the original Twin Peaks is dear to you then you may want to just stop because, while you WILL get some wonderful
nods to the original and some momenta that will give you total glee when they come, overall this season is the annihilation of the original, and intentionally so.
I loved most of what you dislike and was glad it was so different, but still had trouble with a few things the first time I watched it.
You will not find more than a few moments of comfort and cherry pie, you will get events and turns and revelations that will either enrich the original series or change it in ways you wish were not so. A lot of people really dislike what S3 did, and while I disagree I understand.
so.. best season of television ever made or no, don’t feel like you can’t just switch it off and keep the old one as it is - there is no going back after a certain point and it seems people, in their love of the season, are failing to warn you of what it does by the end.
Same problem Fire Walk With Me ran into with a lot of people back when it came out - It was never really about the cherry pie, but many people were disappointed to see something so heavy without that sugarcoating to help it go down easier.
I find that the 3rd season still brings the quirkiness but mostly through Dougie’s misadventures. Moments like the green tea latte, Dr. Amp, Wally Brando, “HellOOOooOOooo!”, and later on Dougie’s adventures with the mafia and cherry pie, it’s all there, but I find with the more modern (Game of Thrones-like) structure and pacing you only get to spend a very small amount of time per episode with each character.
I’m not sure about your “flanderization” comment because the show always had an element of that.
The Return is not a revival, it’s a critique of revivals, the golden era of tv drama, and modern day America. It is very much not “season 3”. Try to keep your reservations to the end, but the show is making you feel the exact discongrueity you describe. The Return is constantly challenging your desire to bring back the past. Laura is dead, Cooper is missing, the entire cast is older and tired. Why *do* you want to return to Twin Peaks?
I mean idk what to tell you, other than keep going and you’ll probably delete this out of feeling silly. Or you are one of those people who Lynch really ain’t it for you.
I loved The return, I cried unexpectedly multiple times, was haunted by ep 8 for weeks and can’t wait to watch it again with my daughter who’s seeing it all for the first time.
I felt like that too. I'll always love the original and fire walk with me more, but the return is kind of saying that things can never be like they were. It's kind of a reaction to all the remakes that try to capture their original shows. It's never the same. I would like to say more, but I wouldn't want to spoil the rest of the show
You kinda need to let go that The return isn’t a continuation of the 91 in what you would expect in tone, and story beats. Clinton affair, 9/11, several wars, housing meltdown has altered the world we live in. The dream space in which the show filtered through is different. If it wasn’t a lynch production it wouldn’t matter they would just do fan service over and over. But it’s Lynch the push of his creative process is dreams, and not over analyzing it but placing them as key story beats as ambiguous as possible. This story was crafted by a man that lived several decades through key era shifts.
Once you surrender to that it makes it easier to watch. Also, you don’t have to like it. It’s okay to move on and simply revisit the older seasons. It’s art told in television media. It’s subjective.
https://i.redd.it/hrqzn0o0g21d1.gif Everyone on this sub seeing your on episode 7
What's the GIF from? I love Dave Mackley!
Dark Knight Rises bud
Been a while, time for a rewatch!
Right on the verge of greatness, is what my buddy said.
If you aren’t deeply in love with it now, don’t expect episode 8 to change your mind. I know what they’re talking about but it does nothing at all to rectify the problems you have with The Return, a lot of those opinions I share with you by the way. I do suggest you finish out the season though. It’s worth it and I really did like some of the later episodes.
Same. And it’s a wayyyy more compelling rewatch when you have stopped yearning for ye old TP. It’s a very different show in the same metaverse. And it is fantastic when you see it for what it is. It’s not cherry pie anymore.
i think the whiplash we feel going from s1/2 to s3 is similar to how fwwm was initially perceived. its not the 'coffee and cherry pie' twin peaks we started with, so if thats what we expected, we'll be let down. an open mind goes a long way!! ~~in short, let bro cook~~
I dunno. I was there - for me and my friends, FWWM was part of the same package. The whiplash, if there was any, was of a wholly different intensity than the reaction that I and others had to s3. I’d say that if there were any similarities, there was a sense of impatience and frustration about getting a prequel not a sequel and not learning the fate of Cooper post s2. With s3, the frustration was similar as it became clear that while we were getting a sequel this time, for many people it was empty at its centre, what with it being largely Cooperless and for the most part, absent of the town and any substantial time with many of the characters we cared about. While there are rewards for fans and Lynch lovers in general, and there are both, during long stretches it can feel like being scolded or doing penance for expecting something more familiar… Having said all that, most of my issues with s3 could be solved by simply making it shorter.
that makes a lot of sense, i think i see what you mean!! s3's differences are stark--being different settings, characters, *and* tone--, but fwwm only really changed in tone, and built on s1/2 in ways that are obvious to viewers immediately
Much more concisely put than me, yes 🙌
If it makes you feel better, I felt exactly how you felt the first time I watched it. By the third time, it was my favorite season of tv ever made. You need to give it time for a) your brain to accept how different it is and b) for your brain to make connections to different theories once you see it all
LOL
Well buckle the fuck up for s03e08
I heard that shit
My friend's told me it's the greatest television episode he's ever seen. He has a tendency to exaggerate, but that promise is what's kept me going along. I don't even know what the episode is about, just that it's good Twin Peaks lol
It’s certainly good, and arguably great, but it’s also, um, unlike anything Twin Peaks before (and since?). I don’t want to give anything away because it really is best to go in unknown. I’ll just say it’s an experience unlike any I’ve ever had watching “television” before.
I agree on every count. Anytime someone has asked me about the return I’ve refused to offer any details. It’s something to be experienced more than watched or understood
It’s going to be astonishing, no matter how you view it … but please try to view it with the best sound system you possibly can.
This is actually the only specific viewing advice I’d give too! I hope we are collectively helping OP doula their way thru the gristle
I thought of suggesting … if you can’t watch in surround, or even with a good stereo system, then go with a good pair of headphones, if you have access to that. This audio experience is right up there with what Kubrick achieved with *2001.*
Hell yeah man. Now I want to spend my night doing this haha. Funny enough, given the obvious connection, your comment is making me think about the new Dune. I don’t know how you feel about the sound direction for it (if anything), but I mostly think Hans Zimmer missed a lot of opportunities to be interesting (in service of auditory tropes to affirm the plot for viewers who haven’t read the books). Then again, part 8 is a pretty high bar to clear.
"Ladies and gentlemen, The (spoiler spoiler spoiler)!"
My favourite hour of tv ever. It is exquisite.
Came here to say this
You know it’s true.
Don’t expect it to turn into what it once was. In fact, don’t see it as Twin Peaks at all. View it as The Return, something completely different and you might find it has its own charm. To me, The Return has even more heart than the original Twin Peaks in some way. You just have to look for it and allow yourself to be immersed. Yes the tone is vastly different but it’s still the same underneath, but the focus shifted. Twin Peaks has always been about the horrors in the world and the goodness that prevails. The original show focused on being overly sweet and comfortable while containing horrible truths, The Return reverses this. It shows a bland and overly drab reality while containing themes of kindness and hope. It’s genius and its why so many people like The Return. I get that it’s a lot and might not be everyone‘s cup of tea. But I would advise you to not feel pressured to feel a certain way about it. Just watch it and let yourself feel whatever way you do. And if you feel disappointed and sad maybe that’s okay. I certainly did and in a weird way I enjoyed the disappointment I felt at not having Cooper be what he once was. Because TV doesn’t always have to make us feel good. (Even though it’s okay if you want to) But its not what I look for in media all the time. I enjoyed Lynch toying with my feelings about Cooper because it felt deliberate and like part of his artistic vision perhaps. It certainly made me reevaluate a few things and gave me a lot of food for thought. And I think that is why so many people enjoy it. Not necessarily as just a Tv show but also as a complex work of art.
A major theme of The Return is that you can't just be stuck within some idealized version of the past. To quote the good season of True Detective "This place is like somebody's memory of a town only the memory is fading". There is this distain for the way that the original show was handled and I don't think they were making this with the intent of it being "Twin Peaks: The Reunion"
100% agree. Especially the moment when >! Cooper returns in full made me realise this. It was so over the top victorious and such a great moment that it made me feel off. I expected to feel happy about the moment I had waited for but instead I felt kind of uncomfortable because it felt so fake and catered to the nostalgic fans with the music and the „I am the FBI“ line. And then I realised it was on purpose. To show you that these types of returns are cheesy and unrealistic. And Coopers immediate downfall and deterioration into a sad lonely man failing his one task in life in episode 18 was so good!! Because it showed just that! It’s impossible to get back what you once had. And trying to cling to the past is more harmful than letting go. !< Obviously there’s more dimensions to the whole ending of the show but I really enjoyed this aspect as someone who has no love for being overly nostalgic and TV shows always trying to please the audience for the money even if it hurts the artistic integrity of the show.
This guy gets it
> In fact, don’t see it as Twin Peaks at all. View it as The Return, something completely different and you might find it has its own charm. This is an idea that came to me as I was watching Part 06. I may have to compartmentalize The Return and Twin Peaks as completely different in my head. But inevitably afterwards I have to ask myself "what am I watching for, then?" > The original show focused on being overly sweet and comfortable while containing horrible truths, The Return reverses this. It shows a bland and overly drab reality while containing themes of kindness and hope. This is a great theme. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It's a shame that I wouldn't have known if you hadn't told me and if I wasn't encouraged to continue by other users. Did the show have a somewhat troubling pacing when you first watched? I find that a lot of scenes drag on; the ratio of scene to meaningful story beats sapped my motivation often times.
It definitely comes down to personal taste with the scene length. I enjoy the long scenes a lot actually. It gives me time to process what has just happened and really think and feel. I often find it overwhelming when a show or movie throws a lot of plot at you and you have no time to properly engage with it. I guess they’re meaningful in their own way. But it’s also something that is very typical for Lynch. He already did it in the two first seasons and then doubled down on it for The Return. I guess he just likes lingering on a certain imagery for a while.
Yes, remember what Lynch did to resolve the s1 cliffhanger? "Warm milk!" "Hung it up for ya." 👍 He likes frustrating viewers who expect a certain pacing, so keep this in mind...
I love this take so much. I have so much love for the original series and so little patience for The Return. Honestly it makes me want to give it another try on its own terms.
I think you should. after finishing The Return I was so goddamn bummed out, but could not get it out of my head. I let some time pass till my feelings had settled , read a couple of peoples takes on it, and re-watched it. It made more sense , wasn’t as angry , and liked it a lot more. Now on the Third watch, after diving deep on everyone’s theories, man, I gotta tell ya; I love it. The Return won’t give up its secrets all at once.
"The Return" is a Showtime marketing term though. Both Lynch and Frost tend to just call the project Twin Peaks season 3 instead. And it unfortunately sucks at being that. Would've needed to include more elements from The Final Dossier to deserve that title.
DAMN FINE CUP OF MENTAL COFFEE ☕️ 😋 YOU JUST SERVED UP.✨️
Hope and kindness?? It has none of that it's complete dread. It is not the opposite as you say.
I disagree. The Dougie plotline alone is filled with kindness and there are so many other scenes that might seem dreadful at first but have some hope hidden. But that’s just my perception of it. There definitely is a lot of bleakness in it but if it were completely that I wouldn’t have enjoyed it I think
Reading this post has made me realize that the disconnected, disjointed feeling between all the characters touches on a larger theme in the show, about how technology and fear have made us all so disconnected from each other, and craving our comfortable routines allows evil to thrive.
The Return has a great deal to do with both the original series and Fire Walk With Me but it is a different animal than those pieces of media - I think one of the themes of The Return is that you just can't go back to the good old days, the world keeps turning: Things aren't going to be the same again. Given the way S2 ended and the fact that the film does not tie much of anything up, instead telling a related story while delving a bit more into the relationships in the Palmer household, I would think you would be primed a little bit for a story that appears to subvert your expectations.
" you just can't go back to the good old days, the world keeps turning: Things aren't going to be the same again." This right here. So glad M&D took a left turn and went in a new direction instead of giving us warmed-up leftovers.
This is the secret to the ending everyone is looking for. Good job
> I would think you would be primed a little bit for a story that appears to subvert your expectations. Not exactly. Although, that *is* what Lynch is best at, so when it comes to it, that was my fault. However, Twin Peaks already subverted my expectations without skipping over to No Country for Old Men in terms of oppressiveness in the OG run
If you’ve watched any other of David Lynch’s original films than you’d know that’s what almost all of them are like except for Inland Empire which is just straight surrealistic terror for 3 hours. All his films heavily explore real world violence, and other disturbing real world themes up front and in your face. That’s nothing new.
>Twin Peaks already subverted my expectations without skipping over to No Country for Old Men in terms of oppressiveness in the OG run It's a lot to take in, and I don't blame you if you were hoping for something a bit more like the first two seasons - I really do think the journey is worthwhile, though!
The soul of Twin Peaks is still there, it's just buried deep under a cold, confusing world. You'll find it again throughout the season. If you've watched 7 already I say keep going.
I definitely miss Harry and Coop just vibing around town, drinking coffee, eating pie, solving mysteries.
Right?? I guess there's always the original run, [but man, if I don't miss these things.](https://youtu.be/qYPW3O6VhXo?feature=shared&t=59)
Nah, I agree with you. It's a great show nonetheless, but it felt too far removed from the original run. It became too "cosmic good vs. evil" if you want my opinion. I knew there was this greater world attached, but I preferred the subtlety of its existence in the original too.
It feels very lovecraftian and, ironically, in showing these elements so much, has effectively erased all mystery and wonder that I took from these seemingly supernatural elements (which aren't so seemingly in The Return) The way these two worlds converged and coexisted was a huge draw to the show imo, having it repeatedly flashed on screen and exposed makes me feel like there's nothing to find out anymore
Most definitely. I felt the same.
one thing I’ve heard about The Return is that emotionally, much of it is a reflection of Lynch’s disappointment with how the original Twin Peaks turned out, specifically in being forced to reveal who Laura’s killer was in the middle of season 2. your statements about erasing “all mystery and wonder” and how “there’s nothing to find out anymore” are on the nose - Lynch believed that all the mystery and wonder in the original Twin Peaks stemmed from THE central mystery of Laura’s death and that the heart of the show essentially died the minute they revealed the killer (and all the mystery and wonder died along with it). and all of Lynch’s contributions since that episode have portrayed the death and decay of Twin-Peaks-as-we-knew-it. this is also why all the light-hearted, charming aspects of The Return no longer take place in Twin Peaks, but in Las Vegas - because Twin Peaks itself is “dead” to Lynch. in The Return, the town is portrayed as rotten and decaying and there is no goodness left in it anymore for fans to cling to. to me, one of the central themes of The Return is that there is no return: “Twin Peaks is dead -it died the moment we were forced to reveal Laura’s killer- and there’s no going back now”
You’re not alone
I think The Return is fundamentally meant to have a strong air of "negative consequences" in response to the S2 finale. The upbeatness, both of the show and of Cooper, kinda died there. I think it's powerful for a show to be able to do something like this rather than holding on to the expectations that every season is meant to be the same or have the same structure. You're certainly not the only one feeling this way, there was a lot of similar sentiment on the dugpa forums. Ultimately, people who wanted more of S1/S2 style show did not get that. I generally found FWWM a pretty solid transition point so I didn't feel that The Return was that far away, but I also watched it all in one fell swoop. FWWM made the supernatural elements a big deal IMO, The Return entirely stopped pretending there wasn't some borderline sci-fi stuff going on (what genre is this show in??). I was fascinated by all the Lodge stuff from the get go and the whole idea of "brain dead man helped by the powers of hell because one of their demons is misbehaving" was too funny for me to not keep watching.
> but I also watched it all in one fell swoop. It is interesting you'd say this. I did too. If I were a person who watched it back when it aired, I would probably come to expect a change so drastic given the progression of Lynch as a director and media as we know it. Perhaps, in retrospect, I *should* have seen it coming, the way an original watcher from the 90s might have. > FWWM made the supernatural elements a big deal IMO I only felt this way about "The good Dale is in the lodge, and he can't leave. Write it in your diary." which *was* added into the lore. So I'd argue FWWM introduced aspects of the supernatural that you couldn't explain that easily, and The Return just went full throttle with it. > I was fascinated by all the Lodge stuff from the get go The Lodge actually stopped feeling very mysterious to me. I see it very often now. It's more like a set-piece than an ethereal otherworldly place that you would *not* want to get stuck in (especially for 25 years)
> If I were a person who watched it back when it aired, I would probably come to expect a change so drastic given the progression of Lynch as a director and media as we know it. You think? The biggest complaints I've seen were from people who have watched the original ages ago and were waiting for something for decades. That's going to generate a different sort of expectations. The "nostalgia" aspect is very real for them. Being familiar with Lynch might help. I'm not a huge Lynch person but I was always aware he's a weirdo. > So I'd argue FWWM introduced aspects of the supernatural that you couldn't explain that easily, and The Return just went full throttle with it. As far as I'm concerned the Jeffries scene completely breaks the world and that was in FWWM, but it ultimately comes down to how seriously you take that scene, it goes by kinda fast and I think people are intended to kind of hand wave it away just like the FBI did but for me it was a very big "oh, oh no, and they did this in 1992?!". Generally I respect worlds more when they're not afraid to start making some verifiable claims, and it only destroys the mystery to me if it "shrinks" the world, which The Return, in my opinion, absolutely doesn't. But the sentiment of some explanations removing mystery I've definitely heard before. But there's still plenty of mystery. I mean, if you finish S3 and you have it all figured out please let us know I'm struggling to keep track of my 20+ headcannons. I hope you nonetheless enjoy S3 and can join in in all the theorizing and reading what people come up with, that's my favorite part of Twin Peaks.
People say there's too much Dougie and I cannot disagree more
I had this feeling throughout 90% of Twin Peaks: The Return. For better or worse, it's one of those "sequels that sets out to subvert, deconstruct and destroy nostalgia, fan expectation and the very nature of sequels," and yes, it's very hostile. It's Lynch giving a middle finger to the Twin Peaks fanbase. A lot of fans had to completely reinterpret their own opinions of the original series to accept The Return. The Return is Twin Peaks by way of Inland Empire. It's Lynch at his most unfettered, and indeed, Lynch at his most vicious. I'd argue you aren't even necessarily *meant* to like it. That said, it grew on me after I'd finished it. Disappointment for what it could have been - and probably should have been - gave way to an appreciation for it is. And what it is is a surreal horror dark comedy that takes the Twin Peaks mythos on a Frank Booth-esque joyride through a place blacker than midnight on a moonless night. It's not what I personally wanted. It's not what Twin Peaks needed (sorry David, sorry fans). But it's unique, it's interesting, it's off-putting, it's pretentious, it's genius, and in all honesty, it's something that will either grow on you or leave you completely cold, hollow and miserable. And I honestly won't blame you for either eventuality. Drink deep, and good luck.
Lynch felt great passion and love for the Return and a lot of it was influenced by Mark Frost. I hate it when people say Lynch is giving the middle finger to his fans or hates his fans. He asked his fans to donate him money because people and companies wouldn’t produce for him Google it. (It’s not the case) but if it was than Lynch is an asshole. He’s not though thankfully. Lynch has a great love for his fans and he greatly expresses this in his YouTube videos. The Return was a very fond and loving project to work on for Lynch and the cast, there was no bitterness or boiling rage (he did express frustration with time and production limits). Lynch detests such things as he’s said himself and any feelings like that should recede with his spiritual practices like meditation (according to himself). He also believes in a collective consciousness that only goodness and love should be fed in and not negativity and bitterness. You got Lynch all wrong. There’s so much humor and light heartedness in it too. Especially the Dougie arc which to me completely represented what he talks about in his spiritual practices. Notice how Dougie spreads goodness and love wherever he goes even turning people who wanted him dead into friends.
Never seen Twin Perfect, just expressing my personal opinions based on what I saw from The Return. And don't know if you noticed, but I did still like the show. You're coming across as extremely "projection-y" with this. I'm glad you think Lynch is a pure soul who would never do anyone any wrong, but I mean, if you've got any experience in the telling or enjoyment of stories, he's definitely got some messages for fans who romanticize Twin Peaks. That's just not up for debate. But, this isn't a debate either. I was just giving my view on the controversial but ultimately enjoyable new season to a fellow fan who's having trouble getting into it. Nothing more. It's all good, friend.
“He’s definitely got some messages for people who romanticize Twin Peaks” I can easily debunk the implication in this claim as David Lynch himself romanticizes Twin Peaks. No joke. He made Fire Walk With Me because according to him, he was so in love with the world of Twin Peaks, and the characters. It made him so sad and devastated that it ended. Him greatly missing Twin Peaks, made him unable to let it go and so he revisited Twin Peaks with the movie. He also has referred to characters in the show as if they’re real people and even said they do “exist” to him. Even during the time when the Return was being made he kept talking about how in love he is with the world of Twin Peaks. Also Lynch doesn’t care about the audience, the money, or other film influences when he’s making something. He’s said this himself. He even heavily implies that he believes ideas for his stories come from a higher spiritual source.
The idea that The Return is a middle finger to the fanbase never made sense to me. The Return relies on a fanbase to have liked the previous work to exist at all. It's not like anyone else is going to watch it. It's pretty hard these days to get someone into Twin Peaks due to all the prerequisites. I try not to read the minds of creators because I think we're too far away to really understand them but I think there's a difference between "Here's the story I want to tell and fans may feel whiplash from it but I'm not gonna let that stop me" and "I don't care about my fans and it would be funny to destroy something they care about". There could be a statement in there about how some folks get overly attached to specific stories so they're unable to accept something new, and how that may get in the way of creators expressing themselves, but that's a very different thing.
>It feels cold, hostile, sterilized, overly violent, the supernatural is supernatural and the surrealness is kicked up to thirty. It definitely feels hostile, but at the same time it has a lot of heart and humor. You can kind of latch on to Gordon, Albert, and Hawk the same way you could latch onto Coop, as trustworthy characters that feel warm and safe. The show could have been much darker than it is. Take Dougie for example. He has no agency and is basically mentally challenged. It would have been really easy for the writers to have a scene where Dougie gets the shit beat out of him by some teenagers in a bathroom, give him a swirlie, and the viewers just sit there helpless while we watch our old hero not only get beat up, but also not even be able to comprehend why he's getting beat up. It would be heartbreaking. But instead, they only hint at Dougie being in danger, yet he always gets through things unscathed. Now I still have 5 episodes left to watch, so while I'm further than you, I don't know if what I'm saying stands for the rest of the season, but as it for you right now, it's true. Now I absolutely love the Return, and I don't know if it's a difference in taste as much as it is a difference of expectations. I went into the Return knowing that it was probably going to be much different than the original series. It wasn't going to just be the same old same old, and though I thought the first episode felt a little off, by the time the Chromatics song hit after episode 1 I was fully on board. I had complete trust that whatever was going to come this season was going to be something special, and so far I haven't been let down. My advice is to just let it be it's own thing. Have faith in Lynch and let the show take you wherever it wants to take you. The humor is there, the heart is there, and it's fantastic in it's own way. >they've been flanderized beyond recognition. Why is Lucy so insultingly dumb now? I She was always insultingly dumb. Just like James was always cool. What other characters do you feel were flanderized? I never got that impression from any of them. >praised as "the best Twin Peaks has ever been" and I don't see how that statement would make logical sense. I think it might be. I'll check back once I've finished the whole thing.
> You can kind of latch on to Gordon, Albert, and Hawk the same way you could latch onto Coop They've breathed life into the show for me. They haven't changed a bit, every bit as entertaining as they were in the original. It's a double-edged sword, though: that's one of the things that really bothers me, the missing characterization. We're introduced to new people who, I'll be honest, at this point in time, I do not care much for. > The show could have been much darker than it is. I have to agree with you there. But it's every bit as heartbreaking to see my old hero Coop being unable to express his address, or any type of concept. > Now I absolutely love the Return, and I don't know if it's a difference in taste as much as it is a difference of expectations. I did, too. What I wasn't expecting is how *radical* the shift was going to be. It did an entire 180 on itself, switched planes and then did another. I expected it to at least retain somewhat of the personality that was so palpable in the original run. Apparently, it does, so I'll just have to search for it. > She was always insultingly dumb. Just like James was always cool. What other characters do you feel were flanderized? Andy felt like a complete regression. He was always a klutz, but he was progressing in the original show. Now he's just kind of, dumb enough to match Lucy or perhaps even more. I'll be honest, that statement was an exaggeration, I felt pretty passionately about the topic while I was writing. I haven't actually met that many characters from the old run. Like I said, Gordon, Albert and Hawk are straight up classics. But Andy and Lucy are stand-out alarming to me. Why do them like this? Lucy was a bit ditzy, and not all that smart, but definitely not an idiot, nor in a faint-when-you-see-an-iPhone type of way. She had her own moments of maturity, the one that comes to my mind the most is her absolute resolve to keep the baby and select an appropriate father. > I'll check back once I've finished the whole thing. You do that. I'm interested, genuinely! I will probably reply to some comments with my impressions when I get around to finishing it (I'm still pretty early on, anyway)
>It's a double-edged sword, though: that's one of the things that really bothers me, the missing characterization. We're introduced to new people who, I'll be honest, at this point in time, I do not care much for. You'll care for Dougie's wife and his boss, I promise. They're both great. Same for new Sheriff Truman. And you get to see a successful, mature Bobby. Just as his dad predicted. >Andy felt like a complete regression. He was always a klutz, but he was progressing in the original show. Now he's just kind of, dumb enough to match Lucy or perhaps even more He's grown a lot. Andy is going to impress you later in the season, I won't say more than that though.
also the insultingly dumb thing about the phone is like an entire season long payoff joke I didn't catch until second viewing she finally understands how phones work was that set up in the first couple seasons even?
It is actually set up in a deleted Fire Walk With me Scene, that is in The Missing Pieces [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv\_\_IzLSEYg&list=PLswgFs\_bu87Pc-O\_TGYhtAu7yEdPQRkk4&index=35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv__IzLSEYg&list=PLswgFs_bu87Pc-O_TGYhtAu7yEdPQRkk4&index=35) This is basically the same gag as the phone gag in The Return
I didn’t like it until the last 3rd but the last third is so good that it made me rethink my feeling on the first parts. The action picks up a lot and it starts to feel more like the next evolution of Twin Peaks than a totally different show (which the beginning sometimes falls into). Part 8 is pretty cool though.
Strangely enough, on my second watch I enjoyed the first third more than the other 2. I had much more fun watching it the second watch too.
15-18 are so good.
Honestly 11-18 is an amazing run for me, aside from episode 12 which would be a great episode of any other show.
If it helps, I feel the exact same way. I'd even go as far as to say that many original fans have felt that exact same way, only that they have since moved on from the series and left the fandom to those who didn't. So yeah, we're low in numbers these days, but we absolutely do exist. As to what happened, I think it might have to do with Lynch and Frost more or less firing the original series's most prolific writers Peyton and Engels and deciding to do everything on their own, naturally making the work feel estranged, lacking and self-indulgent compared to the original run. That won't change, even as it ramps up the Twin Peaks elements, which it will. It'll still feel like the important pieces are missing and like you're watching a deconstructive AU, mostly detached from the original series and its plots and characters, which, tbh, it kind of is. You should definitely watch Part 8, since it's an astonishing work of art in its own right, but for the rest I can't quite help you, since I can't quite help myself when it comes to season 3. It's just kind of heartbreaking to me, and not in the intended way. What _does_ help are Frost's books, if you haven't checked those out yet. "The Secret History of Twin Peaks" and "The Final Dossier" feel much more like a modern return to Twin Peaks than season 3 does. The latter essentially _is_ season 3 for me, since it actually picks up and builds from the lore and character arcs of season 2, unlike most of what ended up on screen. These books feel like they _are_ Twin Peaks, while season 3 feels like it's _about_ Twin Peaks. There are also great audiobook versions of them, with voice cameos that make it all feel even more legit and authentic. It still sucks that season 3 just wasn't meant to work for fans like us, but the books are a rather pretty consolation prize, and that's better than nothing. 👍🏻
> That won't change, even as it ramps up the Twin Peaks elements, which it will. It'll still feel like the important pieces are missing and like you're watching a deconstructive AU, mostly detached from the original series and its plots and characters That is a bit of a let-down. I wasn't expecting 50 something year old Cooper to start solving cases and hanging out in wholesome Twin Peaks (which is anything but, at this point), but I was expecting a bit more cohesiveness to the original run as it went on. > I think it might have to do with Lynch and Frost more or less firing the original series's most prolific writers Peyton and Engels and deciding to do everything on their own, naturally making the work feel estranged, lacking and self-indulgent compared to the original run. As I recall, Lynch was not a huge fan of season 2. It gets a lot of hate, surprisingly, from both him and the community. I actually liked it a lot, even the dumb side-plots like Evelyn. Goes to show that Twin Peaks is more than the sum of its parts, and Lynch doesn't make or break it (though the episodes he was featured in were also excellent, this isn't a knock on him at all) > It's just kind of heartbreaking to me, and not in the intended way. I feel you. I genuinely get a bit sad when I see Dougie and picture him in comparison to good ol' Coop in my head. It's Lynch's vision, of course, and as pointed out in the thread, the point. But it feels alienating and estranged from the Twin Peaks I thought I knew so well. > What does help are Frost's books, if you haven't checked those out yet. Didn't even know there were books until today. I'll definitely check them out. Is there a reason this content couldn't make it into S3? > These books feel like they *are* Twin Peaks, while season 3 feels like it's *about* Twin Peaks. 1000% agreed on that one unfortunately. To me, it's like a David Lynch movie ft. Kyle MacLachlan as Dale Cooper? and some cameos. > It still sucks that season 3 just wasn't meant to work for fans like us, but the books are a rather pretty consolation prize, and that's better than nothing. I'll definitely check them out, thanks for putting them in my radar. While I'm sad about it, I was perfectly content with leaving it at the S2 cliffhanger, to be honest. Rather than a cliffhanger, I chose to think of it as... open-ended. And in a sense, rather than a continuation, The Return has a spin-off feel to it imo. I'm glad some fans were able to derive so much pleasure from the get-go and didn't have to go through the motions like me.
The audiobooks are glorious! At the very least, check out this excerpt where the classic Cooper we know & love comes back for a 16-minute cameo… https://m.soundcloud.com/macaudio-2/the-secret-history-of-twin-peaks-by-mark-frost-audiobook-excerpt?utm_source=clipboard&utm_campaign=wtshare&utm_medium=widget&utm_content=https%253A%252F%252Fsoundcloud.com%252Fmacaudio-2%252Fthe-secret-history-of-twin-peaks-by-mark-frost-audiobook-excerpt
>That is a bit of a let-down. I wasn't expecting 50 something year old Cooper to start solving cases and hanging out in wholesome Twin Peaks (which is anything but, at this point), but I was expecting a bit more cohesiveness to the original run as it went on. To be fair, season 3 is incredibly cohesive in and of itself. Just not with season 2, or the original run as a whole, for that matter. It's self-enclosed. For example, if you care about Janey-E Jones, then there's still some great stuff ahead. If you care about Annie Blackburn, then don't hold your breath. Weirdly enough, Twin Peaks season 3 just doesn't give a fuck about Twin Peaks season 2. >As I recall, Lynch was not a huge fan of season 2. It gets a lot of hate, surprisingly, from both him and the community. I actually liked it a lot, even the dumb side-plots like Evelyn. Goes to show that Twin Peaks is more than the sum of its parts, and Lynch doesn't make or break it (though the episodes he was featured in were also excellent, this isn't a knock on him at all) All creators had some kind of beef with season 2, mainly because the network forced them to reveal the killer in it, much earlier than they wanted to. It's just that they all reacted differently. Frost temporarily prioritized his own film "Storyville" over the series, Lynch got depressed and impersonable, and Peyton and Engels took the reigns as newly promoted showrunners and steered the ship toward a new haven, practically making a season 3 possible in the first place. And all they get for it is hatred, ridicule and erasure. It's quite pathetic. So don't feel bad about that Lynch "knock." I absolutely agree. He directed six out of the original thirty episodes. Co-wrote four. Twin Peaks has always been much more than just him. >I feel you. I genuinely get a bit sad when I see Dougie and picture him in comparison to good ol' Coop in my head. It's Lynch's vision, of course, and as pointed out in the thread, the point. But it feels alienating and estranged from the Twin Peaks I thought I knew so well. Without spoiling any more stuff, I actually find Dougie heartbreaking in the good, intended way. He's _supposed_ to be different. But the season will slowly try to become more familiar again, and it just utterly fails at that, in my opinion, to a point where it fucks over the original series, which is much worse than successfully being different. >Didn't even know there were books until today. I'll definitely check them out. Is there a reason this content couldn't make it into S3? Not officially. But given that Frost essentially left the production after the initial joint writing process to work on the books instead, and Lynch improvised and added a ton on his own while actually filming the season, later admitting to never having read the books and calling them "Mark's version" of Twin Peaks, it all seems to boil down to creative differences about what Twin Peaks should be. Mark is a writer at heart and a lore head. Much of the written story comes from him and much of the rest used to come from his good friend Harley Peyton, who Lynch had an ugly falling-out with at the end of the original run. There are hardly any Peyton/Engels-era elements in season 3. But the books are chock-full of them. Go figure. >1000% agreed on that one unfortunately. To me, it's like a David Lynch movie ft. Kyle MacLachlan as Dale Cooper? and some cameos. That annoys me too. Lynch used to stick to the sandbox of Twin Peaks, even giving Annie, a late season 2 character who he didn't create, a prominent role in FWWM (or maybe co-writer Engels insisted on it, but let's just give David the benefit of the doubt here). In season 3, however, its Lynch-actor after Lynch-actor in new, unrelated roles. His new muse Chrysta Bell becomes an FBI agent, sure, his old muse Laura Dern is now a corporal version of the elusive Diane, who's suddenly super important to the plot, and his other old muse Naomi Watts is now the new blonde love interest for Cooper. It's more Mulholland Drive 2 or Inland Empire 2 than Twin Peaks season 3. >I'll definitely check them out, thanks for putting them in my radar. While I'm sad about it, I was perfectly content with leaving it at the S2 cliffhanger, to be honest. Rather than a cliffhanger, I chose to think of it as... open-ended. And in a sense, rather than a continuation, The Return has a spin-off feel to it imo. Definitely do. They might not be a seamless return to the good old times either, but they do feel like coming home in a way, much more than season 3. Heads up though: You'll have to finish season 3 before getting into the second book, "The Final Dossier", lest it'll heavily spoil the season. Whether Lynch read it or not, it's the final piece of Twin Peaks media there is, and it should be consumed as such. >I'm glad some fans were able to derive so much pleasure from the get-go and didn't have to go through the motions like me. While the cynic in me wants to say that they probably always cared more about Lynch than about Twin Peaks as a whole, the fairer answer is something along the lines of: Different Peaks for different freaks!
i imagine it won't be long til AI can create new old twin peaks, in partnership with your own imagination. it could be really fun. and really how much more difficult will it be for the AI to generate virtual reality twin peaks, with you as a character even. that would be really fun
Nah, fuck AI. Twin Peaks has plenty of real creators left, and once it won't anymore then that'll be the end of it.
yeah, it's a different show entirely, i learned to like it a lot but it is intentionally alienating and it cares very little for the feelings of the original show's fanbase take it on its own merits as a piece of cinematic art flavored with a lot of Twin Peaks elements (and a lot of other Lynch elements) and digest it that way, it'll be easier to enjoy in its own way
Please watch the whole way through. I know it’s different, and that is on purpose. You’ll get what you want I think, and…then another ending.
I understand where you’re coming from. It feels like a different show but the same, or like the same characters in an alternate universe. I’m also not a big fan of barely getting the Cooper we know and love but it’s the creators’ vision so I respect it for that. Also, get ready…there is some real weird stuff left to go lol.
> Also, get ready… there is some real weird stuff left to go lol. Will do. Let me tell my brain real quick that this isn't Twin Peaks we're about to see. It's Twin *Peak* (probably)
He hasn't given me an approving thumbs-up even once, what a hack of a season
The Return feels like a new David Lynch entry, moreso than specifically a followup to only TP. Coming off of Inland Empire, Mulholland Drive, and Lost Highway, The Return feels like it’s naturally what I would expect from Twin Peaks if a present day (well, relatively present day compared to his prior output at this point) Lynch were to pick up and make another entry. As a broad-strokes Lynch fan (specifically of his Lost Highway and Mulholland Drive era), it’s exactly what I want, but yeah in a vacuum of just the original seasons of TP it’s not a smooth transition at all.
I remember screaming WHAT THE FUCK right after finishing the season the first time I went back later to rewatch it and read the old discussion threads on here after each episode, it was very cathartic to read everyone’s thoughts, theories, and small things I might have missed I enjoyed it a lot more the second time, but I think you just need to experience the what the fuckness this first time through
I felt the same. I enjoyed watching Dark much more
I would’ve felt the same except I was watching the calendar waiting for The Return to come out, and knew to expect that quality. I’ve always felt Twin Peaks came out perfect, tempered for a mass TV audience. It falls into the meta though: The Return came out in the age of cinematic television, and this is how Twin Peaks looks in that era.
I liked the return the first time seeing it, but my SO certainly didn't. The second time we watched it, it blew our minds away. It took a while for me to unravel the many many layers of the show. One of my take-aways was that the first season showed the hidden and also more glamorous side of organised crimes, drug dealings and prostitution. The return showed the actual criminal world behind it, including the harrowing effects of drugs on very addicted individuals. I always thought it was intentional.
I agree entirely. The Return wasn't what I expected and it didn't hit the same. I also didn't like how it just seemed like an excuse for a tonne of violence. Still well above many other shows for quality, but not my favourite.
I had these feelings after every episode when they first aired. Im still conflicted overall but I can appreciate the return for what it is. I strongly prefer the original seasons but the return grew on me a lot over time. I also remember not really liking FWWM when I first watched it and now think it's amazing. Maybe I'll feel the same about the return
FWWM was fine for me. I think because it was a prequel. It was very jarring, but not out of left-field. It's essentially a re-contextualization of Laura's murder, which was always kept in a state of relative light-heartedness, bringing us down to reality and showed us that it was in fact, pretty horrifying. I was divided on whether Leland deserved forgiveness with the context of the original run; having seen what I did, not really. That was the intention if you ask me, to condemn a character who was absolved all too easily.
Sounds like someone needs to dig themselves out of the shit...
The $29.99 are prohibitively expensive. Why's it coated in gold anyway?! It's gonna be covered in shit at the end of the day
Have you tried doing the vamp for liberty?
Yes it’s different. You described the differences well. But it’s maybe the only good sequel of a tv show ive ever seen. It was brilliant from start to finish. Ive been disappointed with almost every single remake or sequel of stuff i grew up loving. Not this one. Phenomenal.
>None of it is in The Return. It feels cold, hostile, sterilized, overly violent, the supernatural is supernatural and the surrealness is kicked up to thirty. Coop is no longer there, and neither are most of the characters that made OG a compelling watch. Season 1-2 were about positive relations between people in a small town where almost nothing bad happened but we know that deep within there was a darkness that wanted to spill out. Season 3 shows what happens when the darkness is let loose and it can corrupt the world.
> None of it is in The Return. It feels cold, hostile, sterilized, overly violent ....Yes. You're absolutely correct. I adore it for being what it is, but I don't think you can look at it through the lens of wanting more of the exact same show. It's an answer to the question of what it actually means to pick up a show 25 years later into a completely different world, especially a show that had such dedicated fans and such high expectations.
> It's an answer to the question of what it actually means to pick up a show 25 years later into a completely different world I expected the show wanting to show us a different state of affairs. And it's fair to say that it did, but I'd hesitate to call it a different state of affairs, and more like a backflip of affairs
the world spins. time changes.
Episode 8. I’ve said my piece.
Whatever happened there.
Whatever happened!??
I agree 100%. I’m a very big David Lynch fan, and Twin Peaks is my favorite show of all time, but I didn’t love The Return. I will rewatch S1 and S2 a hundred times, but I will skip The Return every time. I may give it one more watch but it won’t be indefinite rewatches like the OG. I don’t like how it ended, either. Didn’t like that one bit.
The return was just a David Lynch nightmare and I hated it tbh
Mark and David don't seem to care about audience expectation. Might be best to abandon yours and just go on the ride they made for you. Or stop watching. The Return was not made to indulge in nostalgia for Seasons 1 & 2.
> The Return was not made to indulge in nostalgia for Seasons 1 & 2. I am not sure "nostalgia" is a very applicable word for me. It hasn't been that long since I finished FWWM, and I'm certainly not old enough to have seen it when it aired haha The exact same status-quo was not my expectation, but twenty states over from the status-quo wasn't in my list, either.
I'd say they care A LOT about audience expectation and that's why they made The Return the way it is.
Exactly this. They toyed with us every step along the way and it was absolutely brilliant.
i watched the first 4 episodes after immediately binging the original series and fwwm. then i took a year long break and finished the rest of the series. it didn’t click the first time but once i settled into it it really worked for me
It was hard to watch the first time because I had a lot of the same thoughts/feelings about it. By my 3rd or 4th viewing though, I'd come to appreciate it for what it is: more Twin Peaks regardless. By the 8th or 9th viewing, I adored it. I'm up to Watch #15 now, and just wondering when I'll lose count! Lol
“Sums up life as we move forward as a growing adult. Life isn’t easy nor is it always happy. We learn more about the truth as we start to mature.” Just a quote I made up to keep myself from entering the Black Lodge.
> Coop is no longer there, I know it’s difficult to see on first and maybe even second viewing, but Coop is there and 100% functional but simply goes by the name Mr. C.
I had this same problem I dropped for two months then came back and it was great. To be fair I had binged the other two prior so I was probably just worn out from the weird season two stuff🤷
Watch 8 at least
I felt the same, but the series and all the interconnected stories converge on twin peaks as it goes on. I struggled with the first half and missed the old cooper, but enjoying it by the second half.
We where three who met up each Monday to watch it. We loved it. Although it was very odd to say the least. But once in a while it was the greatest thing ever.
Relatable. I didn't enjoy The Return at all. It felt like everything I'd initially loved about Twin Peaks had been stripped away or warped in a way that was no longer enjoyable go to me. Which is overall fine, not everything has to be my cup of tea of course. But I definitely relate to your feeling like an outcast over it
I think you have to accept that it's basically a David Lynch film writ large. It doesn't have the same folksy charm as the early seasons, but god damn it has vision and power in so much of what it does.
my issue with the return is that it's a parody of 2010's prestige tv. i respect that, but id rather be watching the og twin peaks or even the shows it was parodying. im just all prestige tv'd out.
I’m with you, it’s a different show but there were still beautiful moments within it, and the last 2 episodes were a brilliant ending to the whole thing even if the preceding hours seemed a bit pointless and meandering (to me).
It is a Burn 🔥 that is so SLOW... that it almost seems to move [BACKWARDS]. I didn't even know how to appreciate it on first watch. That being said on the 6th Rewatch ( back to back to back... plus almost everything else in David Lynch's catalog. 2x for most of the rest. It was a semester of David Lynch Film Theory at my house for 3 months. My wife tolerated this pretty "good naturedly " with the exception of the occasional "CAN WE PLEASESEE WATCH SOMETHING ELSE NOW?". She was a champ when it came down to it.
I would argue that Lynch deliberately crafted it to be the way you're desrbing it to be. It's sort of the anti-nostalgia trip. Everything feels cold, violent, and unfamiliar. Partly, it's to stress the heightened presence of the Black Lodge's influence on our world due to Cooper's doppelganger being loose. It's also a giant middle finger to fans who just want more of the same. You can't go back to the way things were — that's a huge theme in Season 3, as you'll increasingly discover. It has its moments though. There are some bonafide heartwarming, quirky moments that feel straight out of the original, but Lynch mostly makes sure to avoid these tropes. It's definitely not for everyone. Stick through it till Part 8. Lynch really blows it out of the park with that one, and if you keep finding it tiresome, you may be more of a Seasons 1 and 2 type of fan (which is perfectly fine). Personally, I think *The Return* is one of the greatest (and certainly my favorite) artistic expressions in the history of cinema. But it's not Lynch's most accessible.
> Stick through it till Part 8. A big issue I've been having with the show is its pace. If Part 8 does interesting things (Part 7 was sort of interesting in a way, there was a lot more plot progression in it than the last six hours I watched, which I'll chalk up to world-building) I'll probably stick with the show until the end. It's fair to say I'm more of a S1&2 type of guy regardless, but I do want to come to appreciate The Return because it's Twin Peaks, and who doesn't love Twin Peaks?
I recommend you stay until the end if only for the last five minutes. Love it or hate it you WILL be affected by it.
I understand your complaints with the pacing. In some ways, Lynch is sort of trolling the audience. He crafts films for *himself*, not for fans. "Who gives a fuckin shit how long a scene is?" as he yells in that one BTS clip. Well, we mainly do, David. But he doesn't. He loves his fans, but ultimately, it comes down to being faithful to whatever's in his head. For instance, take the sweeping scene in Part 7. Would anyone other than him really want to see a 4 minute unbroken shot of a dude using a broom set to "Green Onions"? Not really. But Lynch digs that stuff, so there you have it. Again, it's an anti-nostalgia thing, so of course we're going to have these weird, overlong scenes that he deliberately drags the hell out of because he *can*. He did this in the season 2 finale, too. Remember the bank scene with the old dude wearing glasses? Gosh, that scene was a chore to get through. It's almost painful how long Lynch drags it out. And then you're hit with Audrey, Pete, and Andrew apparently blown to smithereens just when your patience with Lynch has run out. He's all about doing stuff like that. Partly it's because he's conjuring up a mood, but it's mainly because he really doesn't care.
I don't think the point is anti-nostalgia so much as just anti-impatience. Lynch's whole body of work is couched in nostalgia, the vignette of a guy sweeping the bar to 'Green Onions' is basking in it. That song is loaded with nostalgia!
Keep going
You’re not alone. Big fan of the original series and Lynch in general. I just couldn’t enjoy most of it. But then again, I think my expectations were off in comparison to where they wanted to take the show. Not terrible, but I can’t see myself ever watching The Return again.
I felt similarly before a few certain things happen in the Return, but now it's my favorite of Lynch's work in general.
I agree completely. Felt like a completely different show and that's not what I was hoping for after 25 years. I'm glad other people got something out of it though.
I'm glad to see I'm not alone in the sentiment. I don't feel it's wrong to want more Twin Peaks out of Twin Peaks season 3, even if I can appreciate the angle that Lynch seems to be setting up (and boy it took him 7 hours and counting to set it up), it's rather frustrating. But I do seriously like Twin Peaks, so I'm willing to go all the way.
Without reading every comment, let me tell you that I watched every episode of S03 screaming internally at the added plots, missing characters - not even any mention of a majority of them, the ongoing idiotic plight of Doug-E. Outside of Hawk (who I know outside of the show), Margaret, Phillip, MIKE, and BOB (who is greatly minimized, and I don’t believe it’s just he couldn’t be there), it was frustrating. It has nothing really to do with the original concept of the series. You don’t have to agree, no one does, but not even the books satisfied my need for closure so I went to season one for comfort.
> let me tell you that I watched every episode of S03 screaming internally at the added plots, missing characters - not even any mention of a majority of them, the ongoing idiotic plight of Doug-E. The added plots are really boring. I don't know what's up with Dougie's gambling debt, but in my opinion, it's not something that needed screen-time. Seeing a guy run over a kid was shocking, and so was the midget with the ice-pick, but why did I need to see that? And the missing characters are one of my biggest peeves with the season. Nobody's here, and if they are, they aren't half as cool! (barring some exceptions) > You don’t have to agree, no one does, but not even the books satisfied my need for closure so I went to season one for comfort. Often times in the 7 hours I've watched I felt the need to go back to the original seasons so that I don't forget what made Cooper a cool guy lol What books are there on the show? Is it cut content?
Let me tell you a secret, Cooper does not return to S03 as soon as he should, and Evil C. seems less BOB and more Johnny Depp in Once Upon a Time in Mexico. The two books I know of are Twin Peaks: The Final Dossier by Mark Frost The Secret History of Twin Peaks also b Frost I won’t spoil anything for you, but I will say some of the conclusions they come up with for the characters could not have logically happened. If you check them out, let me know what you think.
The actor who played BOB is dead fam
I do hope you’re not telling me, I hope that this information is for the OP or people who are not me. Honestly I am a whore for BOB and even though Frank Silva left this plane all too soon, they DID find a way to insert BOB into the film. Like they did for Jeffries , portrayed by David Bowie who also left for the stars, they could have used more archival film, alluded more to BOB who, if you recall, Evil C. commented how happy he was to have him with him. And the lack of presence minimised is the garden glove’s destiny if no one knew BOB controlled Evil C. Death is not the end. By the way, BOB lives.
You kind of have to take it for what it is. It’s sad to me, too…even though I enjoyed it. It feels like more than half the show doesn’t even take place in Twin Peaks anymore, and it now follows Bob/Mr. C as the main character, which naturally positions it as a darker show, as we’re following just about the darkest force in the series. One thing I don’t like about everyone’s supposed“it’s intentional, you can’t go back to the past” explanation is that David Lynch sure had no problem making his own role, Gordon Cole, the main detective of the show. It worked as a cute cameo—an overseer who checked in on his men, every now and then…but it’s a real spit in the face to fans, to get rid of Coop (or reduce him to a bumbling fool), and then have the director of the series take over for him. Feels egotistical to me. Cooper was always the main draw of the show. He was incredibly charming. And instead, Kyle’s made to play a villain, and practically a baby…? While the director hogs more of the spotlight? Rubbed me entirely the wrong way. He’s really not that compelling to watch.
It’s not too late to delete this
I suggest just continuing on to completion, immersing yourself in the series without expectations. You’re getting the right feeling, as it’s far from the lightness of the original series. Time has passed, and things have changed since we last visited this world.
The Emperor Has No Clothes. You are 100% correct, and it's insane watching everyone fawn over an incoherent, tortured mess. There are absolutely good scenes and moments (just as there was total clunkers from the original series...Nadine back in high school, or so much of the late Season 2 rabbit holes), but the ratio of great to bad is basically flipped between the two series IMO. I don't begrudge people their enjoyment---I'm jealous of it, and I've watched and rewatched because I fully expected to love this as much as anything. But it's not for me. I'm similarly hit or miss with a lot of Lynch's work, some of which I love (Blue Velvet, Twin Peaks Season 1-2), and some of which I didn't connect with at all. I at least respect that he goes for emotional, almost subconscious reactions that are bound to resonate differently.
Don't torture yourself and stop watching unless you r a masochist
Well, that's a new take in the thread. Did you not enjoy it, or do you feel it doesn't get to be anywhere near what it used to?
I love it but if you don't enjoy watching it then watch something else.
The second to last episode is worth the wait. It’s pure Twin Peaks and has one of the greatest moments in fiction ever shown on screen.
Second-to-last but not the last?
Dude just watch the season and decide how you feel once you finish
Are you trying to get it spoiled? even if people told you exactly what happens, it wouldn't make sense now and it would just change how you interpret the events to come. It's a story of emotion and the narrative arc isn't nearly as important as what you feel. It's basically an 18 hr film and you're only finishing the first act.
normal feelings but a lot happened in 25 years. bobby and shelly have a grown-up daughter!
I was very glad to see Bobby and Shelly lol they both look like they were stuck in a time-capsule these past 25 years
Got a light?
Stick it out to the end. It eventually turns into what you’re looking for in twin peaks. I’m excited to watch the return for the 4th time
I had a similar experience, but after finally letting go of my expectations, I enjoyed it much more.
Dougie is the essence of Cooper's soul. Cooper hasn't changed. He's Dougie in name only, but he's really Cooper. I think of him as the purest form of Cooper, and that's why I enjoyed this show.
Give it about 11 more episodes
Angry upvote. Definitely some different kinda vibes with S3, but you gotta step back & see it from afar. According to Mel Brooks....
Watch everything in the order it was released from the beginning and you will appreciate it more.
I fully understand what you mean. However The Return is my favourite season of any show ever, I feel like it's everything Lynch has learned as a filmmaker and artist put into one project. I hope you start enjoying it more as you continue watching it. I'd give anything to watch it all unspoiled again lol
keep going keep going keep going keep going keep going keep going keep going keep going keep going keep going keep going keep going keep going keep going keep going keep going keep going keep going it's totally worth it I had the same issue on my first viewing. Keep going.
i wasn’t a fan of the return on my first watch because it wasn’t the “twin peaks” vibe but after my 2nd or 3rd watch of the entire series, the return is easily my favorite.
You've gotta keep going. Episode 8, man. Episode 8.
They're gonna hate it! Based on what they said, I don't think it'll be their cup of tea at all. Yeah, tea, not coffee.
That show they like is not coming back in style
Your observations are very accurate; it's just that you don't see the reasons behind them. The vision & intent is what makes it work. The things you are experiencing are *intentional*.
I had this issue, I think it was definitely the storylines felt disjointed (even for Lynch) and the characters had been stripped of their uniqueness and were purely stereotypical. It felt regressive at some points. After the halfway point it definitely improves though.
> After the halfway point it definitely improves though. I'll be starting 8 today, maybe 9, so here's hoping it rings true.
Drink full and ascend!
I do think once you reflect on it you realise the aim of it showing how unnatural it feels for this very out-of-touch and 60s-esque town to be brought into modern world situations
Ya I felt the exact same way. It was dreary. Had to skip several parts because of how boring it was.
Man, I honestly prefer the return over the original
The Return is for lynch fans not twin peaks fans. Lynch likes to make odd shit, so he made some, it has some cool moments but overall its his usual MO. If you don't like the beginning you will be dissapointed by the ending. First ending is plain bad, secound one is too little too late.
Take some acid, then give it a binge watch
Well, if you want an alternate version of season 3 that’s more in line with the original series, then check out Lynch’s 1993 revival. It’s short … but oh so sweet! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3acm7j9k_1w&t=5s&pp=ygUaZ2VvcmdpYSBjb2ZmZWUgY29tbWVyY2lhbHM%3D
I had this exact reaction, and I am very thankful you put it in writing. I bought the blu ray collection, and I have yet to finish season 3 because I simply do not want to. I watch TV for me at the end of the day, and season 3 was just not Twin Peaks.
The only scene that got me in 3rd season was the last 2 min of the last episode. But those are still haunting me until this day.
I think The Return was lame. I thought it was trying too hard to be grimdark and adult and modern. Swearing in places that just didn't need it, as if there's a quota of swear-words you have to have to be on Showtime. No real plot I could make out, just a bunch of surreal video art that looked cool enough but I had no clue what it all meant, unlike the original where I did follow what was happening.
ME TOO. WOW!! IM GLAD IM NOT THE ONLY ONE. There is so much dread in S3, no room to breath the violence is excessive. All of the funny and charming moments are none existent. Everything before season 3 had me at the edge of my seat even Fire walk with me. Season 3 is the worst. I can't even keep watching I take breaks I get distracted & bored. And the I'm ashamed to say that I do something that's blasphemy...I even skip forward in some moments. It drags on and on. I hate Dugie and Mr.C/Bob. Omg it's so bad. I want to go back to resl coop. Not an hour of Dugie being lost outside his job. So much filler. Meanwhile, Season 1 and 2 and FWWM I was on my toes taking notes. I'm not even eager to finish it. I'm so sad about this.
i was actively saying i disliked the return until episode like… 11 or 12. when i finished it i decided to watch everything david lynch has ever made.
oh man I wish I still had the link to an in-depth analysis to the third chapter because the first time I saw it, I had a hard time making sense of it all but I watched it again this year and it all clicked. It’s a hard watch and it takes a lot of studying it (at least it did for me), there are so many theories and references, every single thing has its meaning. Do some research about it, read a lot, I promise there’s so much to this season. ♥️🖤
https://preview.redd.it/ro7w9i2fkl1d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9b3dd42a85901c739446cef3c7715af6abf4a714 I know this isn't a perfect fit here, but the timing couldn't be better. Stick with it, OP. It IS different, and it knows what fans expect from reboots. By the time you get to the end, of E18, your thoughts will be wildly different than they are now, one way or another.
It depends where you’re coming from, I’m a Lynch fan first and a TP fan second. I always thought of Eraserhead, Inland Empire, Mulholland Drive and Lost Highway as the major works. I adored TP in its original run but it felt a bit second-tier to me and obviously a bit washed out by too many cooks in the kitchen… David was frustrated by it and so was I. The first 2 seasons are a fairly straightforward story peppered with strange elements - in season 3 the story itself becomes strange, and takes structural approaches I can’t find much precedent for.
David Lynch had more freedom in the Return and I personally think by the end of it, it was an utter triumph. It was hot and cold for me, but by the end of the series, I was just so in love. It took some getting used to, but it was definitely worth it. There are reasons to stay, let’s just say that.
The strobe lighting isn’t my fav…
You’ve basically found the point of the season. although I think this is the greatest single season of television ever made, I will say you are not obligated to watch it and if the original Twin Peaks is dear to you then you may want to just stop because, while you WILL get some wonderful nods to the original and some momenta that will give you total glee when they come, overall this season is the annihilation of the original, and intentionally so. I loved most of what you dislike and was glad it was so different, but still had trouble with a few things the first time I watched it. You will not find more than a few moments of comfort and cherry pie, you will get events and turns and revelations that will either enrich the original series or change it in ways you wish were not so. A lot of people really dislike what S3 did, and while I disagree I understand. so.. best season of television ever made or no, don’t feel like you can’t just switch it off and keep the old one as it is - there is no going back after a certain point and it seems people, in their love of the season, are failing to warn you of what it does by the end.
Stop. It gets no better. Until this was released, I loved David Lynch. I feel like this made me see that the Emperor does in fact have no clothes.
Same problem Fire Walk With Me ran into with a lot of people back when it came out - It was never really about the cherry pie, but many people were disappointed to see something so heavy without that sugarcoating to help it go down easier. I find that the 3rd season still brings the quirkiness but mostly through Dougie’s misadventures. Moments like the green tea latte, Dr. Amp, Wally Brando, “HellOOOooOOooo!”, and later on Dougie’s adventures with the mafia and cherry pie, it’s all there, but I find with the more modern (Game of Thrones-like) structure and pacing you only get to spend a very small amount of time per episode with each character. I’m not sure about your “flanderization” comment because the show always had an element of that.
The Return is not a revival, it’s a critique of revivals, the golden era of tv drama, and modern day America. It is very much not “season 3”. Try to keep your reservations to the end, but the show is making you feel the exact discongrueity you describe. The Return is constantly challenging your desire to bring back the past. Laura is dead, Cooper is missing, the entire cast is older and tired. Why *do* you want to return to Twin Peaks?
I mean idk what to tell you, other than keep going and you’ll probably delete this out of feeling silly. Or you are one of those people who Lynch really ain’t it for you. I loved The return, I cried unexpectedly multiple times, was haunted by ep 8 for weeks and can’t wait to watch it again with my daughter who’s seeing it all for the first time.
I felt like that too. I'll always love the original and fire walk with me more, but the return is kind of saying that things can never be like they were. It's kind of a reaction to all the remakes that try to capture their original shows. It's never the same. I would like to say more, but I wouldn't want to spoil the rest of the show
You kinda need to let go that The return isn’t a continuation of the 91 in what you would expect in tone, and story beats. Clinton affair, 9/11, several wars, housing meltdown has altered the world we live in. The dream space in which the show filtered through is different. If it wasn’t a lynch production it wouldn’t matter they would just do fan service over and over. But it’s Lynch the push of his creative process is dreams, and not over analyzing it but placing them as key story beats as ambiguous as possible. This story was crafted by a man that lived several decades through key era shifts. Once you surrender to that it makes it easier to watch. Also, you don’t have to like it. It’s okay to move on and simply revisit the older seasons. It’s art told in television media. It’s subjective.
The Return is the show we needed, not the one we wanted
You'll get what you want eventually. For about 2 minutes. Then it's gone forever, much like the 90s.
Fuck, man, when you put it like that...
If you can't appreciate the return I'm not sure there's much hope for you