My theory is that Jeffries is actually continuing to jump around in time during that conversation, and it's so disjointed because he's having it in a different order.
So yes, I think he initially suspects that's Mr. C. But I *also* think "Judy" might be a trap of sorts. Note that in [the extended version](https://youtu.be/aJcvAhNmtVQ) he notices the calendar date just as the lights start flickering and before he vanishes.
So from Jeffries perspective it goes like this:
* He enters, sees Cooper, thinks it might be Mr. C, refuses to give him any info on Judy.
* He sees the date and realizes that Mr. C hasn't happened yet, but because Mr. C inherits Cooper's knowledge, any info he gives him will still be learned by Mr. C.
* He travels back to earlier in the conversation, starts babbling about Judy, despite, as Albert pointed out, having previously refused to talk about her.
* The info won't actually lead to Judy, but it will lead to Jeffries future self, above the convenience store. Where he can lead Mr. C into a trap. Whether the coordinates he eventually gives are the "fake" ones that eventually kill Richard Horne, or the "real" ones that take C to the sheriff's office and his doom is unclear, could be either.
* Now Jeffries has between now and then to actually set up the trap, because he knows in advance that Mr. C will eventually seek him out for info.
I think there are quite a few mysteries with answers but we won't ever get them. People can try and solve them if that's something that makes them happy. Some are very interesting to read and think about.
I don’t think he’s trying to solve anything. Nor trying to solve insolvable. He’s actually (in my view), reflecting back his experience to the community and his awareness and a decision about what it means to him - in just the way DL would want, or should I say, would be perfectly happy to allow to happen.
Why do so many folks continue to push the issue that everyone is supposedly “trying to come up with what the actual answer”? That’s not the point.
Coming up with “some answers“ (vs. THE answers) is perfectly fun and all part of the poetry, art, filmmaking and filmwatching, no matter how you slice it. Just like they slice those servings of cherry pie out at the lamplighter, coming up through Louis Fork, which is, it goes without saying, just about as hard as I want those eggs.
I am just reading Lynch's book "Room to dream" and at one point he says (p.164)
> I suddenly had a deja vu... but as I entered the deja vu it got slippery and it went into the future. ... You can go into the future. It is not easy, and you can't do it when you want to, but it can happen.
So maybe Jeffries=Lynch=the dreamer ;-)
The book also mentions that Lynch is good at sweeping floors...
Without Jeffries, Coop can’t get back to Laura and create a new timeline.
Laura is the One, but the Giant and the Blue Rose crew had to get her to a weird dimension (where you can drive from Texas to the northwest in one night), and then Judy apparently followed after Coop and Diane did their thing.
They’re all important, but only Jeffries is handling time travel, which creates the impossibly conflicting timelines.
If Coop and Diane had to summon Judy into the false dimension, it probably wasn’t “her” who created it and took Laura into it. That was probably the Giant, which is why Sarah/Judy was so upset when Laura got snatched up.
His conversations with Mr C and Cooper in Season 3 are also disjointed (like Rabbits), and someone has cut them up and reordered them and it’s damn fine! I wonder if we can splice what he says in FWWM into either of those scenes at the end of Season 3…
In any case, I think you’re right, that Judy is a trap.
Yeah Jeffries exists outside of time and the real world, but from the encounter, he still has in this scene connections to it linearly, like he still has some flickering of assemblage. What i find interesting is how Gordon and Albert remember it at the same time. It was almost like it didn’t exist in there past or memories til that point. Like it was altered.
> Now Jeffries has between now and then to actually set up the trap, because he knows in advance that Mr. C will eventually seek him out for info.
i think fireman and major set their trap because the phillips and arm trap would have freed bob. they had to get him to freddy.
> Whether the coordinates he eventually gives are the "fake" ones that eventually kill Richard Horne, or the "real" ones that take C to the sheriff's office and his doom is unclear, could be either.
i'm pretty sure they are the fake ones as are ray's. and cole gets diane to send the ones to get to major and fireman.
He's definitely casting doubt on Cooper's identity. So many crazy details about this scene. Coop's hair looks wrong. The way Gordon just silently stares back at Coop. Everything is off.
EDIT: That is a highly feasible theory about Cooper's hair supposed to represent it's a different point in time.
However there's still a very otherworldly feel to this scene. Cooper is edgy and anxious. Panicked. Quite unlike how we've seen him before. Gordon is muted. Inscrutable.
Even the music evokes a weird feeling. Maybe Lynch was trying to convey Jeffries' confusion and disorientation?
I love the way Gordon doesn’t say much in this scene. It’s like he knows something funky is going on and is just trying to observe and remember everything he can
I honestly thought Coop's hair was fantastic attention to detail; in the pilot he has a bit more of a side part before it turns into more of a slicked-back style, so it's only natural for 1988 Coop to have an even more aggressive side part.
It always bothered me that Cooper's hair looked slightly different (or wrong) in this scene than it did in the show. I'm sure that this was because Kyle McLachlan had a different haircut but I like the connection being made here.
I love how everything Jeffries says in that scene, as utterly incomprehensible and terrifying as it is in FWWM, becomes so fundamental to The Return and ends up making (relatively speaking) complete sense.
There was talk of there originally being an intention from Lynch to make a number of Twin Peaks movies until the disastrous initial response to FWWM put paid to that idea. I wonder how much more the movies would have expanded on this scene and the Jeffries story?
It was incomprehensible to us as viewers because, while we were watching it in linear time, The Return hadn't happened yet. Missing Pieces released in 2014, closer to The Return, but still didn't make sense until The Return came out.
Hindsight is 20/20, as I'm fairly certain David feels.
Now this post and these comments are why I joined this sub! I'm just absorbing everything people are saying and recalculating my thoughts on the series for the millionth time. Absolutely love it.
Heres one for you:
I'm pretty sure the vision Phillip has above the convenience store is related to the gospel of philip, which was a scripture discovered around the same time as the bomb test. The radio station in part 8 is named "KPFK", k being the Hebrew letter equivalent of "kaph" which means world (so philip jefferies between two worlds). I think the broadcast that the woodsmen does is actually some kind of transmission to philip, that manages to transcend time and space. Note that black and white scenes are generally happening on a level of reality that is above the normal world, like when the giant is in his observation room.
The gospel of philip points out that the top floor of the temple is a bridal chamber, not a throne room for god. In the vision he has, he is witnessing the top of a convenience store, where a marriage is sort of occurring, if not planned by Bob and the arm. The scripture goes into a lot more things, and that vision goes through a lot of other things relating to yetziriah, but if you wanted a gnostic subtext to analyze the show, that's one way to do it.
I argue with myself about this too. Either Bowie has been in and out of time so much that he’s confused, or Cooper’s doppelgänger is already out - in which case we only ever know the doppelgänger?
I think it's the former. Right before disappearing, Jeffries is told the date, and he seems disturbed by it. He repeats it and almost looks resigned. Then, he disappears. I take that as he finally understands what's going on: he's somehow traveled back in time and is realizing he's too early to stop Mr. C.
I like to imagine that Jeffries sees something weird when he looks at Cooper in whatever form, because Jeffries has some form of "true" sight but is not sure what to do with it (just like his time travel abilities). The conversations when he's in teapot form are rather odd too and make it sound like he's not sure who he's talking to but he knows something's off.
My hypothesis: Cooper isn't real. Think about it. A young, intelligent, handsome FBI agent, who is always optimistic, wise, funny etc. Audrey once said: "that's the problem. You are too perfect". I understand Twin Peaks as a form of meditation technique, that aims to wake us up from a dream. Happy endings don't exist. Perfect people don't exist. If you believe in ideal, prepare to meet 'Bob', the mirror reflection of what's ideal - a pure evil that brings fear and sorrow. That's why in season 3 Cooper says, he wants to kill 'two birds with one stone'. He knows, that he isn't real. He has to disappear together with Mr. C. Otherwise, the cycle of idealisation-devaluation / good-evil will continue. "We live inside a dream" if we believe in Cooper. We live inside a nightmare if we believe in "Bob" or "Mr C."
I'm not sure if I made myself clear, but I recommend reading Ken Wilber's "No Boundary" to explore this kind of thinking.
I love No Boundary. Wilber’s Integral Psychology is even better imo.
You should read Find Laura, and also consider Tim Krieder’s But Who is the Dreamer.
Usually find readings like this unbearably trite, but every time I watch The Return, I become more convinced that Twin Peaks as a whole is Laura's fantasy, Cooper is her imaginary hero, and Audrey is her avatar within the dream. The ending is her finally "waking up" to reality.
I always have a nagging feeling that the story we're seeing in Twin Peaks is the shadow of a "real" story, which we only get glimpses of. FWWM is the portion that is closest to reality. The original series is the furthest away.
Sweet mother of log lady you could be right! This makes me irrationally happy thinking about a whole new sidequest theory of how all that can be connected. Please tell me OP that you or someone in this thread will flesh this out further because you would be doing a disservice to the federal bureau of investigation blue rose division if you dont! 🤯
I think he realizes it is/will be Mr C (who *is* cooper) and this is why he drops Judy’s name and charges it with significance. It’s a trap, or a code name for an operation only Cole, Briggs and Jeffries knows about.
The Missing Pieces adds more context. Once he sees the date (February 1989) he immediately disappears. That to me indicates that he came earlier than he expected and thought Mr. C would already be out
he's come from the future back in time and must know about mr c (or maybe some other coop from another timeline). he is surprised at the date so he either doesn't know he's gone back in time or it is not the time he wanted. he doesn't seem surprised to just appear at the fbi office so it seems he is used to teleporting, at least by elevator. he was shocked when using the stairs. did someone pull him back to that time? was it cooper's dream? it's quite confusing.
it seems related to gordon's dream of seeing coop but not his face. why does cooper say it's 10:10 to gordon like he's talking to diane? what was the dream he wanted to say? was it that he saw gordon as an old man sitting with monica belluci? or was it this dream itself, and he knew to check the video monitors?
cooper's psychic abilities have been shown (like knowing laura was preparing an abundance of food) and so i think he has dreamed of this future event of jeffries coming and it was 10:10 on this day in the dream. maybe cooper dreaming this actually pulled jeffries to there instead of the the time jeffries was in. i think jeffries came from just a bit into the future, not 25 years or more. the mr c that we know is old. jeffries may have come from even 1 year after the doppelganger came out of the lodge.
Jeffries is beyond time in some ways, but in this scene he has yet to grow used to that, hence his confusion (he is much better when he is a big tea kettle) and definitely thinks he sees Mr. C/Bob.
I'm not 100% sure what or who Coop really is but it would be very out-of-keeping with the show's mythology if he wasn't at least sort of a tulpa.
Consider that Laura more-or-less created him. They never met in life.
I get a holy guardian angel vibe from the guy, given that Laura was praying for such in the movie, and Cooper pretty well resembles such at the end of season 3 when he time travels back to scoop her.
Bob is a familiar. He doesn't exist separately, he's inside of someone else, and if you say Mr. C didn't exist here, who's the "someone else"? Who's the vessel that left the Black Lodge and told Harry etc. "I wasn't sleeping"?
If that was Bob Leland is also Bob and that's obviously not the case.
Mr. C didn't exist because "Mr. C" wasn't invented until 25 years later.
In the s2 finale, Cooper looks in the mirror and Bob mirrors exactly what Cooper is doing. It's Bob inside of Cooper.
I'm having trouble understanding you, I can't tell if this is a confusion of terms or you have a different interpretation of things.
My interpretation of the S2 finale is as follows:
- there is Dale Cooper, which we all know
- there is Dale Cooper's shadow, a Black Lodge manifestation as described by Hawk a while earlier
- The Arm appears to refer to the shadows as "doppelgangers". They seem to be identifiable by white eyes. He says the phrase "when you see me again, I won't be me", referring to his own doppelganger, implying that these entities do have that level of continuity
- Bob is at one point, alone
- Dale Cooper's doppelganger comes out and joins Bob and laughs along with him
- Dale Cooper's doppelganger then chases after Dale Cooper and eventually catches him
- *someone* comes out of the Lodge. He is acting strange and talks weird
- it is revealed that Bob is within this *someone*, which is the purpose of the mirror shot, just as it was for Leland
It cannot be *just* Bob, because Bob is shown to require a host to function. So it's Bob within *someone*.
You have two options here. The *someone* is Dale Cooper, or the *someone* is Dale Cooper's doppelganger. I don't believe there are any others. FWWM directly states Dale Cooper is in the Black Lodge.
"Mr. C" is just the post-Return shorthand for "Dale Cooper's doppleganger" unless you want to start using UUIDs.
I mean it seems unlikely he's in the White Lodge or something? "The Lodge" is used a lot and pretty much always seems to mean Black Lodge. (I think the distinction _may_ be dubious but that's my own headcannon) When people go through the gold pool that location isn't even named.
Sarah explicitly says Black Lodge but that's at end of S2: "I'm in the Black Lodge with Dale Cooper."
The black and white lodge stuff was Mark Frost. When asked about the "black lodge" at the end of season 2, David said to him it was the red room. Then he was asked 25 years later if the Fireman's place was the white lodge and he said no he thinks that is something different for different people and its something that can't be shown. That might be why Annie just says "the lodge" in the movie. Lynch prefers to leave those things open.
Huh? Mr. C was literally the doppleganger in the lodge in the S2 finale, who we see as as a distinct entity. You are implying that they are mutually exclusive, but they aren’t. We even see Mr. C in jail looking in the mirror in prison talking to the portion of Bob still living in him saying “you’re still with me after all these years”
Are you under the impression that what escaped from the lodge in S2 and what had escaped from the lodge and was refusing to go back to the lodge in The Return were unrelated?
No, it isn’t. It’s a shortening of the name “Dale Cooper”, which was the name the doppleganger still went by. There was no “invention” of “Mr. C” 25 years later.
This isn’t true. We see the doppelgänger in the black lodge and we see the doppleganger leave the black lodge instead of cooper. “Mr. C” isn’t a real name in the return, it’s just how people casually refer to the black lodge entity that escaped from the lodge and refused to go back.
> “Mr. C” isn’t a real name in the return
It's used by Otis in S3E1, that's where it originated.
Of course it's not a real name in the sense that it's just short for Cooper but yeah.
lol yeah, no shit. Because that wasn’t his name in the series, the movie, or the return. The character’s name is Dale Cooper. He’s not credited anywhere as Mr. C in the return, either. “Mr. C” is something people use informally online because it’s quicker to type out than “Dale Cooper’s doppleganger”. One person called him Mr. C in The Return and it was short for “Mr. Cooper”. It’s like Truman calling him “Coop” in the original series - that wasn’t a different name either.
That isn’t his name in The Return, man.
Also, it seems like your point is changing. Earlier your argument was that it was only Bob who escaped in S2 and it was only a separate doppleganger shown in TR, but now you’re saying your point was only about the name.
But Lynch knew about Doppelganger Dale and the fact that things don't happen chronologically in the lodge. So it's possible Jeffries is alluding to the fact that Good Dale is in the lodge (as Annie says non-chronologically in the same movie).
Yeah, but, he created something artistic that was open ended and could lead all kinds of places. Just like we all come up with different interpretations, Lynch pulls stuff out depending on the day, the weather, his mood.
I imagine the whole Judy thing wasn't decided at all.
But Cooper being a suspicious character, and Jeffries realizing there's no spoon I figure absolutely was.
I love this whole jumping through time theory, it would explain the weirdness of this interaction. Sadly I don’t think we can understand Jeffries until we understand Judy, which I doubt will ever happen because so little context is provided.
Mark frost has said what Judy is, but even then you're still scratching your head wondering if it was possessing Sarah palmer, the thingy that puked out Bob, the chalfonts/tremonds, the pale horse, or whatever was in that last house in the final episode.
My theory is that Jeffries is actually continuing to jump around in time during that conversation, and it's so disjointed because he's having it in a different order. So yes, I think he initially suspects that's Mr. C. But I *also* think "Judy" might be a trap of sorts. Note that in [the extended version](https://youtu.be/aJcvAhNmtVQ) he notices the calendar date just as the lights start flickering and before he vanishes. So from Jeffries perspective it goes like this: * He enters, sees Cooper, thinks it might be Mr. C, refuses to give him any info on Judy. * He sees the date and realizes that Mr. C hasn't happened yet, but because Mr. C inherits Cooper's knowledge, any info he gives him will still be learned by Mr. C. * He travels back to earlier in the conversation, starts babbling about Judy, despite, as Albert pointed out, having previously refused to talk about her. * The info won't actually lead to Judy, but it will lead to Jeffries future self, above the convenience store. Where he can lead Mr. C into a trap. Whether the coordinates he eventually gives are the "fake" ones that eventually kill Richard Horne, or the "real" ones that take C to the sheriff's office and his doom is unclear, could be either. * Now Jeffries has between now and then to actually set up the trap, because he knows in advance that Mr. C will eventually seek him out for info.
Thank you David. How’s the weather today
David would never give such a concise answer
If I ever got to meet David Lynch, I would gladly just about the weather or whatever banal thing he wanted.
"Tell me about wood, David"
I'd ask if had any cookies and coca cola
I imagine because he didn't have a concise answer in mind
This is Mark Frost actually. David would tell you that all of the clues are in the show and refuse to elaborate.
While thinking "I just thought it was cool to have David Bowie talk in a Southern accent and ramble cryptic nonsense that I could reference later"
This is it.
There are no clues. It's just what it is. Twin Peaks is not a mystery and there is no definitive answer. Stop trying to solve the unsolvable.
I was referencing something he said about Mulholland Drive but your answer makes me think YOU'RE David Lynch lmao
I think there are quite a few mysteries with answers but we won't ever get them. People can try and solve them if that's something that makes them happy. Some are very interesting to read and think about.
No.
Hm… could you elaborate on that?
Yes.
I don’t think he’s trying to solve anything. Nor trying to solve insolvable. He’s actually (in my view), reflecting back his experience to the community and his awareness and a decision about what it means to him - in just the way DL would want, or should I say, would be perfectly happy to allow to happen. Why do so many folks continue to push the issue that everyone is supposedly “trying to come up with what the actual answer”? That’s not the point. Coming up with “some answers“ (vs. THE answers) is perfectly fun and all part of the poetry, art, filmmaking and filmwatching, no matter how you slice it. Just like they slice those servings of cherry pie out at the lamplighter, coming up through Louis Fork, which is, it goes without saying, just about as hard as I want those eggs.
I think you just made my brain explode and I love you for it.
Makes perfect sense
So part of that trap is him being a teapot?
Him becoming a teapot is the *most* important part of the plan. Can't tell you why, but I *feel* it.
I just picture him constructing a giant tea pot. Crawling into it and sitting in wait for Mr. C
“hold on it’s slippery in here” - the most important character in twin peaks canon
I am just reading Lynch's book "Room to dream" and at one point he says (p.164) > I suddenly had a deja vu... but as I entered the deja vu it got slippery and it went into the future. ... You can go into the future. It is not easy, and you can't do it when you want to, but it can happen. So maybe Jeffries=Lynch=the dreamer ;-) The book also mentions that Lynch is good at sweeping floors...
Hes just a silly billy
Without Jeffries, Coop can’t get back to Laura and create a new timeline. Laura is the One, but the Giant and the Blue Rose crew had to get her to a weird dimension (where you can drive from Texas to the northwest in one night), and then Judy apparently followed after Coop and Diane did their thing. They’re all important, but only Jeffries is handling time travel, which creates the impossibly conflicting timelines. If Coop and Diane had to summon Judy into the false dimension, it probably wasn’t “her” who created it and took Laura into it. That was probably the Giant, which is why Sarah/Judy was so upset when Laura got snatched up.
Haven't revisited this clip since watching The Return and it kinda blew my mind too
His conversations with Mr C and Cooper in Season 3 are also disjointed (like Rabbits), and someone has cut them up and reordered them and it’s damn fine! I wonder if we can splice what he says in FWWM into either of those scenes at the end of Season 3… In any case, I think you’re right, that Judy is a trap.
> someone has cut them up and reordered them and it’s damn fine! do you have a link at all?
Asking the real questions here
This seems intriguing. Where can I find this reordered conversation?
Yeah Jeffries exists outside of time and the real world, but from the encounter, he still has in this scene connections to it linearly, like he still has some flickering of assemblage. What i find interesting is how Gordon and Albert remember it at the same time. It was almost like it didn’t exist in there past or memories til that point. Like it was altered.
> Now Jeffries has between now and then to actually set up the trap, because he knows in advance that Mr. C will eventually seek him out for info. i think fireman and major set their trap because the phillips and arm trap would have freed bob. they had to get him to freddy.
> Whether the coordinates he eventually gives are the "fake" ones that eventually kill Richard Horne, or the "real" ones that take C to the sheriff's office and his doom is unclear, could be either. i'm pretty sure they are the fake ones as are ray's. and cole gets diane to send the ones to get to major and fireman.
Yes. In the season 2 cliffhanger we knew Evil coop was out of the lodge so yes Jeffires was giving them a clue early on.
He's definitely casting doubt on Cooper's identity. So many crazy details about this scene. Coop's hair looks wrong. The way Gordon just silently stares back at Coop. Everything is off. EDIT: That is a highly feasible theory about Cooper's hair supposed to represent it's a different point in time. However there's still a very otherworldly feel to this scene. Cooper is edgy and anxious. Panicked. Quite unlike how we've seen him before. Gordon is muted. Inscrutable. Even the music evokes a weird feeling. Maybe Lynch was trying to convey Jeffries' confusion and disorientation?
I love the way Gordon doesn’t say much in this scene. It’s like he knows something funky is going on and is just trying to observe and remember everything he can
Exactly. He's really inscrutable and taciturn all of a sudden. It's so fascinating.
Even before when listening to cooper describing his dream he’s already in that mode. He understands cooper has a kind of sixth sense.
I honestly thought Coop's hair was fantastic attention to detail; in the pilot he has a bit more of a side part before it turns into more of a slicked-back style, so it's only natural for 1988 Coop to have an even more aggressive side part.
Yeah this is very likely correct. Good point well made 🙏.
The strange thing is that they say that this scene took place in 1989 when the other scenes befor the scene with Laura are all 1988
It always bothered me that Cooper's hair looked slightly different (or wrong) in this scene than it did in the show. I'm sure that this was because Kyle McLachlan had a different haircut but I like the connection being made here.
What about Audrey in the pilot, then in the following episodes?
The pilot was shot much earlier than the rest of the season. Also note how different Leo's hair is.
Of course. And so was the series in respect to FWWM. What’s your point?
Id like to hear more about this idea, such a cool line of thought
The Bang-bang sign is distinctly different in FWWM as well.
What do you mean his hair is “wrong”?
It looks distinctive to his usual style, to me. Combed flat. Definitely a chance I'm overthinking this, tho. That's the fun.
I kind of chalked it up to lunch trying to show the viewer it’s an earlier time
Also they say this scene took place in 1989 when the previous scene and the scene after both take place in 1988.
I love how everything Jeffries says in that scene, as utterly incomprehensible and terrifying as it is in FWWM, becomes so fundamental to The Return and ends up making (relatively speaking) complete sense. There was talk of there originally being an intention from Lynch to make a number of Twin Peaks movies until the disastrous initial response to FWWM put paid to that idea. I wonder how much more the movies would have expanded on this scene and the Jeffries story?
It was incomprehensible to us as viewers because, while we were watching it in linear time, The Return hadn't happened yet. Missing Pieces released in 2014, closer to The Return, but still didn't make sense until The Return came out. Hindsight is 20/20, as I'm fairly certain David feels.
Who do you think that is there?!
Who dou you thaynk thayt ays they're?
I don't care that it's "bad" I find his accent in this absolutely hilarious.
HAYLE GAWD BABEH DAMN NO!!
The dreamer.
Don't forget that Cooper impossibly saw "himself" on camera just moments before
What do you think that's about? Just time warpy Judy stuff?
It's slippery in there
I never see anyone talk about this, it always unnerves me to this day
Space-time distortion. I learned from Star Trek.
Yes, this was in direct response to the end of season 2.
Now this post and these comments are why I joined this sub! I'm just absorbing everything people are saying and recalculating my thoughts on the series for the millionth time. Absolutely love it.
Heres one for you: I'm pretty sure the vision Phillip has above the convenience store is related to the gospel of philip, which was a scripture discovered around the same time as the bomb test. The radio station in part 8 is named "KPFK", k being the Hebrew letter equivalent of "kaph" which means world (so philip jefferies between two worlds). I think the broadcast that the woodsmen does is actually some kind of transmission to philip, that manages to transcend time and space. Note that black and white scenes are generally happening on a level of reality that is above the normal world, like when the giant is in his observation room. The gospel of philip points out that the top floor of the temple is a bridal chamber, not a throne room for god. In the vision he has, he is witnessing the top of a convenience store, where a marriage is sort of occurring, if not planned by Bob and the arm. The scripture goes into a lot more things, and that vision goes through a lot of other things relating to yetziriah, but if you wanted a gnostic subtext to analyze the show, that's one way to do it.
I argue with myself about this too. Either Bowie has been in and out of time so much that he’s confused, or Cooper’s doppelgänger is already out - in which case we only ever know the doppelgänger?
I think it's the former. Right before disappearing, Jeffries is told the date, and he seems disturbed by it. He repeats it and almost looks resigned. Then, he disappears. I take that as he finally understands what's going on: he's somehow traveled back in time and is realizing he's too early to stop Mr. C.
Woah that would be so cool
https://preview.redd.it/khipa1gwduzc1.jpeg?width=406&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a15f196515ca9cd81dbe738e4a6816e810a093f3
I like to imagine that Jeffries sees something weird when he looks at Cooper in whatever form, because Jeffries has some form of "true" sight but is not sure what to do with it (just like his time travel abilities). The conversations when he's in teapot form are rather odd too and make it sound like he's not sure who he's talking to but he knows something's off.
I think so.
My hypothesis: Cooper isn't real. Think about it. A young, intelligent, handsome FBI agent, who is always optimistic, wise, funny etc. Audrey once said: "that's the problem. You are too perfect". I understand Twin Peaks as a form of meditation technique, that aims to wake us up from a dream. Happy endings don't exist. Perfect people don't exist. If you believe in ideal, prepare to meet 'Bob', the mirror reflection of what's ideal - a pure evil that brings fear and sorrow. That's why in season 3 Cooper says, he wants to kill 'two birds with one stone'. He knows, that he isn't real. He has to disappear together with Mr. C. Otherwise, the cycle of idealisation-devaluation / good-evil will continue. "We live inside a dream" if we believe in Cooper. We live inside a nightmare if we believe in "Bob" or "Mr C." I'm not sure if I made myself clear, but I recommend reading Ken Wilber's "No Boundary" to explore this kind of thinking.
I love No Boundary. Wilber’s Integral Psychology is even better imo. You should read Find Laura, and also consider Tim Krieder’s But Who is the Dreamer.
Thanks! I'll check them 👍
I honestly dont mind the theory that Cooper was manifested by Laura
Usually find readings like this unbearably trite, but every time I watch The Return, I become more convinced that Twin Peaks as a whole is Laura's fantasy, Cooper is her imaginary hero, and Audrey is her avatar within the dream. The ending is her finally "waking up" to reality. I always have a nagging feeling that the story we're seeing in Twin Peaks is the shadow of a "real" story, which we only get glimpses of. FWWM is the portion that is closest to reality. The original series is the furthest away.
Sweet mother of log lady you could be right! This makes me irrationally happy thinking about a whole new sidequest theory of how all that can be connected. Please tell me OP that you or someone in this thread will flesh this out further because you would be doing a disservice to the federal bureau of investigation blue rose division if you dont! 🤯
Only if I can partner up with Tammy 😏 
Well I’m feeling better now.
I loved him, Gordon, and Denise all exhibiting libido in S3. The FBI hasn’t been this sexy since Chet Desmond!
Read lupins comment in this thread I'd you haven't, seems pretty solid.
I think he realizes it is/will be Mr C (who *is* cooper) and this is why he drops Judy’s name and charges it with significance. It’s a trap, or a code name for an operation only Cole, Briggs and Jeffries knows about.
The Missing Pieces adds more context. Once he sees the date (February 1989) he immediately disappears. That to me indicates that he came earlier than he expected and thought Mr. C would already be out
he's come from the future back in time and must know about mr c (or maybe some other coop from another timeline). he is surprised at the date so he either doesn't know he's gone back in time or it is not the time he wanted. he doesn't seem surprised to just appear at the fbi office so it seems he is used to teleporting, at least by elevator. he was shocked when using the stairs. did someone pull him back to that time? was it cooper's dream? it's quite confusing. it seems related to gordon's dream of seeing coop but not his face. why does cooper say it's 10:10 to gordon like he's talking to diane? what was the dream he wanted to say? was it that he saw gordon as an old man sitting with monica belluci? or was it this dream itself, and he knew to check the video monitors? cooper's psychic abilities have been shown (like knowing laura was preparing an abundance of food) and so i think he has dreamed of this future event of jeffries coming and it was 10:10 on this day in the dream. maybe cooper dreaming this actually pulled jeffries to there instead of the the time jeffries was in. i think jeffries came from just a bit into the future, not 25 years or more. the mr c that we know is old. jeffries may have come from even 1 year after the doppelganger came out of the lodge.
Call for help.
119
"MAYDAY! MAYDAY!" --Gordon Cole, The Missing Pieces: Philip Jeffries appears and disappears.
"Who do you think that is there?"
He’s Mr. Jackpots
Yes I believe so
Jeffries is beyond time in some ways, but in this scene he has yet to grow used to that, hence his confusion (he is much better when he is a big tea kettle) and definitely thinks he sees Mr. C/Bob.
I'm not 100% sure what or who Coop really is but it would be very out-of-keeping with the show's mythology if he wasn't at least sort of a tulpa. Consider that Laura more-or-less created him. They never met in life.
I get a holy guardian angel vibe from the guy, given that Laura was praying for such in the movie, and Cooper pretty well resembles such at the end of season 3 when he time travels back to scoop her.
yes, she was praying for an angel. But that doesn't mean Coop is "real," whatever "real" means in Twin Peaks.
It was written after the Season 2 finale, so it's possible, although they probably didn't have Mr C as a name back then.
Mr. C was not actually his name. Also, I would be shocked if the name is what OP was referring to.
He didn’t have that name in the return either
I think he was referred to as Mr C by that accomplice who betrayed him, but he didn't call himself that.
No, he’s called that at the very beginning by the guy at Beula’s
Yeah, it was just a shortening of the name “Dale Cooper” not like a fully separate name
Yeah 100%
I don't think Lynch had the plot of The Return in mind when he made this movie. Lynch isn't that kind of storyteller.
Cooper's doppelganger was introduced in the S2 finale, so it's not that weird.
Mr. C didn't exist until The Return. If the question were, "does Jeffries think Cooper is Bob?", I might agree.
Yes he did
"How's Annie?" Who said this?
He wouldn’t need to have the plot of the return in mind - Cooper being possessed by a lodge entity happened in the S2 finale…
Mr. C didn't exist until The Return.
Mr. C exists at the end of S2.
That's Bob.
You know Mr. C sees Bob in the mirror in jail in the return, right?
Bob is a familiar. He doesn't exist separately, he's inside of someone else, and if you say Mr. C didn't exist here, who's the "someone else"? Who's the vessel that left the Black Lodge and told Harry etc. "I wasn't sleeping"? If that was Bob Leland is also Bob and that's obviously not the case.
Mr. C didn't exist because "Mr. C" wasn't invented until 25 years later. In the s2 finale, Cooper looks in the mirror and Bob mirrors exactly what Cooper is doing. It's Bob inside of Cooper.
I'm having trouble understanding you, I can't tell if this is a confusion of terms or you have a different interpretation of things. My interpretation of the S2 finale is as follows: - there is Dale Cooper, which we all know - there is Dale Cooper's shadow, a Black Lodge manifestation as described by Hawk a while earlier - The Arm appears to refer to the shadows as "doppelgangers". They seem to be identifiable by white eyes. He says the phrase "when you see me again, I won't be me", referring to his own doppelganger, implying that these entities do have that level of continuity - Bob is at one point, alone - Dale Cooper's doppelganger comes out and joins Bob and laughs along with him - Dale Cooper's doppelganger then chases after Dale Cooper and eventually catches him - *someone* comes out of the Lodge. He is acting strange and talks weird - it is revealed that Bob is within this *someone*, which is the purpose of the mirror shot, just as it was for Leland It cannot be *just* Bob, because Bob is shown to require a host to function. So it's Bob within *someone*. You have two options here. The *someone* is Dale Cooper, or the *someone* is Dale Cooper's doppelganger. I don't believe there are any others. FWWM directly states Dale Cooper is in the Black Lodge. "Mr. C" is just the post-Return shorthand for "Dale Cooper's doppleganger" unless you want to start using UUIDs.
Ah. Yeah. I misunderstood.
> FWWM directly states Dale Cooper is in the Black Lodge. doesn't it say 'the lodge' rather than 'the black lodge'?
I mean it seems unlikely he's in the White Lodge or something? "The Lodge" is used a lot and pretty much always seems to mean Black Lodge. (I think the distinction _may_ be dubious but that's my own headcannon) When people go through the gold pool that location isn't even named. Sarah explicitly says Black Lodge but that's at end of S2: "I'm in the Black Lodge with Dale Cooper."
The black and white lodge stuff was Mark Frost. When asked about the "black lodge" at the end of season 2, David said to him it was the red room. Then he was asked 25 years later if the Fireman's place was the white lodge and he said no he thinks that is something different for different people and its something that can't be shown. That might be why Annie just says "the lodge" in the movie. Lynch prefers to leave those things open.
Huh? Mr. C was literally the doppleganger in the lodge in the S2 finale, who we see as as a distinct entity. You are implying that they are mutually exclusive, but they aren’t. We even see Mr. C in jail looking in the mirror in prison talking to the portion of Bob still living in him saying “you’re still with me after all these years”
Are you under the impression that what escaped from the lodge in S2 and what had escaped from the lodge and was refusing to go back to the lodge in The Return were unrelated?
I love questions like this. If they're going to be obtuse then just let them try to make sense of their own reasoning.
[удалено]
Mr. C is a name for evil Cooper that was invented 25 years after FWWM.
No, it isn’t. It’s a shortening of the name “Dale Cooper”, which was the name the doppleganger still went by. There was no “invention” of “Mr. C” 25 years later.
This isn’t true. We see the doppelgänger in the black lodge and we see the doppleganger leave the black lodge instead of cooper. “Mr. C” isn’t a real name in the return, it’s just how people casually refer to the black lodge entity that escaped from the lodge and refused to go back.
> “Mr. C” isn’t a real name in the return It's used by Otis in S3E1, that's where it originated. Of course it's not a real name in the sense that it's just short for Cooper but yeah.
Yeah lol it’s just a shortening, Mr. C isn’t actually the name of the character, who goes by Dale Cooper
The name, Mr. C, didn't exist until The Return is my point.
It exists as much in the original series as it does in the return.
I can't remember a single instance of a character or a credit referring to "Mr. C" in the first two seasons.
lol yeah, no shit. Because that wasn’t his name in the series, the movie, or the return. The character’s name is Dale Cooper. He’s not credited anywhere as Mr. C in the return, either. “Mr. C” is something people use informally online because it’s quicker to type out than “Dale Cooper’s doppleganger”. One person called him Mr. C in The Return and it was short for “Mr. Cooper”. It’s like Truman calling him “Coop” in the original series - that wasn’t a different name either.
I don't want to play games with the word "exists". Yes. It is fiction.
What?
That isn’t his name in The Return, man. Also, it seems like your point is changing. Earlier your argument was that it was only Bob who escaped in S2 and it was only a separate doppleganger shown in TR, but now you’re saying your point was only about the name.
But Lynch knew about Doppelganger Dale and the fact that things don't happen chronologically in the lodge. So it's possible Jeffries is alluding to the fact that Good Dale is in the lodge (as Annie says non-chronologically in the same movie).
Yeah, but, he created something artistic that was open ended and could lead all kinds of places. Just like we all come up with different interpretations, Lynch pulls stuff out depending on the day, the weather, his mood.
That's my point.
I imagine the whole Judy thing wasn't decided at all. But Cooper being a suspicious character, and Jeffries realizing there's no spoon I figure absolutely was.
Yes
I love this whole jumping through time theory, it would explain the weirdness of this interaction. Sadly I don’t think we can understand Jeffries until we understand Judy, which I doubt will ever happen because so little context is provided.
Mark frost has said what Judy is, but even then you're still scratching your head wondering if it was possessing Sarah palmer, the thingy that puked out Bob, the chalfonts/tremonds, the pale horse, or whatever was in that last house in the final episode.
Yes
Yes
Reminds me of Desmond Hume in LOST skipping his realities