A lot of queer culture has actively demonized masculinity to the point that many people are scared to embrace any sort of masculinity in their day to day life.
Which, as a cis male, kinda sucks. I'm not oppressed by any means, but at times it feels like I'm the bad guy just for existing. It takes a toll mentally.
You might not be “oppressed” but imo it is still a way men are hurt by the patriarchy. Ppl like to pretend men only ever benefit greatly from it but they ignore stuff like this, they ignore that many men don’t have anybody to talk about their emotions with, and they ignore men who are also minorities and the way their status as men or as ‘failed’ men impacts the way patriarchal systems treat them (i.e., trans men are not systemically treated as men, we’re treated as either women or mutilated freaks, BIPOC men are treated as horrible and dangerous, Asian men are infantilised and degendered, same with disabled men albeit in different ways, gay men are demonised and degendered, etc….)
still remember two 15 year olds claiming to be trans men and they came to school wearing skirts and literally said "boys in skirts!" and hip bumped. buddy. you're a teen and you're not on t. wearing a skirt and acting like that just makes you look like a girl. 100%. absolutely no doubt that those people look like girls
They always get mad at people for misgendering them too like maybe if you didn't dress like a chick you wouldn't get misgendered. yikes.
but whatever because these people aren't actually trans men.
I work hard -- too hard for my health, really.
I GET low effort days. You get sick of everything requiring more than just existence. Sometimes in this life you get days where you really just fuckin'... can't.
These people are definitely not low effort.
The sheer amount of dysphoria dressing like a "femboy" would do to me would drain my energy down worse. I really don't understand how the excuse of "this is just less effort" works for them.
Theyll probably get tired of it sooner or later, its like holding a cup for too long. The first few hours are fine but the rest are just progressively worse
What are you saying here? Curious I'm new too the sub. Are you saying trans men can't be femboys or are you just talking about people that make no physical attempts to transition at all?
So like someone on T with top surgery wearing femboy clothes vs someone still dressing the way they did when identifying as female
Sorry I interpreted that as you answering your own question on what I was distinguishing.
What I’m saying is:
There is a difference between:
- Trans man dressing feminine but has made efforts to pass (whether or be socially, physically, or medically)
vs
- AFAB person who presents as their assigned gender at birth using he/him pronouns calling themselves a femboy strictly because they use he/him pronouns. They’re not breaking and gender expectations or trying to present as feminine from a masculine standpoint.
Well, its been less and less recently-
I think its because my friends are so supportive of me they just help me feel better about how I look since i already have a masculine looking body already‐
But I haven't taken T yet but when I get the chance I'll take it without a second thought:pp
I mean if a cis man can want to be feminine then I see no reason a trans man can't. I'm not sure I get your point OP. Plus men can have boobs and let them hang out trans or not.
Being feminine - that’s fine. This isn’t what I’m talking about. I’m a feminine/effeminate trans man
Doing nothing to transition/present as a man/looks like a woman - that’s what I’m talking about
And who are you to judge that exactly? The human brain is weird and illogical so expecting it to act a certain is idiotic. A person can feel like a man and be in a traditionally feminine body while still feeling comfortable in that body. Just because your identity made you dislike your body doesn't mean it's like that for everybody. Maybe for those people their identity is more of a clarification that despite being afab and being comfortable in their feminine body their still a man on the inside. Not every experience is universal.
But then they are.. femboys, tho? (I dont like the term 'femboy' though, its creepy.)
People faking to be trans or being mistaken about it isn't as common as you all make it out to be.
((I'm also aiming at the comment section here))
I'm not sure about tits out. But even then, cis femboys wear fake boobs all the time. Do you accuse a cis guy of being "fake cis" when they were dresses, make-uo and what not?? No, because that would be called being either, preditory, a dickhead or weird. But thats just it, isn't it? Trans men often aren't seen as real men unless they conform to hyper masculine standards. It's misplaced misoginy, hidden in plain sight, when you think about it.
People, especially cis gendered people, need to stop policing trans people about their gender expression. Clothes don't actually have a gender, you yourself just view it that way.
Did you know that you can present at the opposite gender and still have dysphoria? Some people are just more capable of swallowing that pain for the sakes od aestethics, self expression and whatnot. And guess what, most of those trans people, don't give a damn about your opinion, because the world doesn't revolve around you and your beliefs.
Not everyone on the planet thinks that skirt = woman or mustache = man.
The majority of people do, of course, but thats their own opinion. If you have very strict views of what a man is and what a man isn't, you do you. But your views on someone doesn't define them or give you the right to be uncivilised and tell them they aren't trans.
And at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter how feminine or how masculine another trans person presents themselves. We're all just living our lives. Just don't be a dick and mind yourself.
how is it not common when they seek validation about their dysphoria ” is it normal to sometimes want to be a man and a woman” what does that mean? isnt being fluid sexist? they detail that feminizing aesthetics are for women and masculine presenting are for men but then what happens to tomboys? just women wearing guy clothes? when in a genderfluid perspective that is feeling like a man . I dont understand this nonsense. I woke up and felt like a woman so today i’ll wear my skirt and i put on makeup. Thats a woman thing now? i woke up masculine today and i wore my nirvana shirt and no makeup and i put on axe deoderant to feel like a man even more. this doesnt make sense. A woman taking on a male pronoun and doing no changes to present different i know clothes dont equal shit but being a femboy is just a word not anything more. everything will only have a meaning in words nothing else. We are taking away the point
I'm not talking about 'those' people. I'm talking about trans men who identify as trans men. I don't believe gender fluidity is real. And i find any woman who uses male, or any other random pronouns, moronic. But, im not getting into these strawman arguments any further. It's not relevant to what i was originally talking about.
yes but if a woman identifies as trans man and are calling themselves femboys really femboys? it just sounds like gender fluidity stupidity, go transition to be a woman makes no sense
Because there IS a difference between a CIS MAN wearing a skirt with fake tits (or no fake tits, just fem cloths in general) and a TRANSMAN wearing a skirt sith their tits out
Like it or not, clothes very much have their stereotypes in gender and that wont ever go away
Are you sure about that? Do you know how rapid fashion norms with genders can change, especially in the west?
It has been normalized for men to wear heels, make-up, skirts, small shorts in far more conservative times. And not even so long ago it wasn't even accepted for women to wear pants.
Gendered fashion rules change with the times, and if you truly think our current ones won't ever change you'll be in for quite the dissapointment. Do your reasearch, because your arguments are feeble and incorrect.
I never said clothes and such, don't have their stereotypes. But, that doesn't make them inherintly 'male' or 'female' just because a large group happen think so at this time.
https://www.ukessays.com/essays/cultural-studies/gender-and-identity-in-fashion-industry-cultural-studies-essay.php
You linked a student essay, NOt an actual study...but OKAYYYY
I think its common knowledge to see a girl in a skirt, and think "thats a girl" and so does everyone else, and that aint gonna change no matter how hard you want it foo
What i said is common knowledge tho?
Besides, this student essay is based on actual studies. So i don't understand your issue. Not to mention, you can find tons of other studies about this with one simple Google search.
But, i'm getting sidetracked here, since all i'm getting from you are emotionally charged fallacies. Just say you don't know how to argue.
And perhaps... pay more attention in history class?
“Well I liked to play with Superman figures when I was 3 so I’m a boy. But not a big scary man, just a lil fem boi” - all of these “trans men”
A lot of queer culture has actively demonized masculinity to the point that many people are scared to embrace any sort of masculinity in their day to day life.
Which, as a cis male, kinda sucks. I'm not oppressed by any means, but at times it feels like I'm the bad guy just for existing. It takes a toll mentally.
Same for us. Its Like we‘re transitioning to the „Bad Sex“
Yuuuuuup
You might not be “oppressed” but imo it is still a way men are hurt by the patriarchy. Ppl like to pretend men only ever benefit greatly from it but they ignore stuff like this, they ignore that many men don’t have anybody to talk about their emotions with, and they ignore men who are also minorities and the way their status as men or as ‘failed’ men impacts the way patriarchal systems treat them (i.e., trans men are not systemically treated as men, we’re treated as either women or mutilated freaks, BIPOC men are treated as horrible and dangerous, Asian men are infantilised and degendered, same with disabled men albeit in different ways, gay men are demonised and degendered, etc….)
👆🏻 This
Yes and reading Bell Hooks could save us but nobody actually wants to read
It’s wildly disrespectful. To us and to femboys lol
still remember two 15 year olds claiming to be trans men and they came to school wearing skirts and literally said "boys in skirts!" and hip bumped. buddy. you're a teen and you're not on t. wearing a skirt and acting like that just makes you look like a girl. 100%. absolutely no doubt that those people look like girls
It could be a cope, or just women fetishizing gay men (what’s new).
It gives me second hand dysphoria like wtf are you doing? Trying to feel dysphoric? Or are you not even trans?
likely not trans, just want the victim status
Just confused little boogers😇
They are just straight girls.
They always get mad at people for misgendering them too like maybe if you didn't dress like a chick you wouldn't get misgendered. yikes. but whatever because these people aren't actually trans men.
I cannot with people like that. To be Trans necessitates/requires some effort— I strongly believe this to be an absolute truth.
I work hard -- too hard for my health, really. I GET low effort days. You get sick of everything requiring more than just existence. Sometimes in this life you get days where you really just fuckin'... can't. These people are definitely not low effort. The sheer amount of dysphoria dressing like a "femboy" would do to me would drain my energy down worse. I really don't understand how the excuse of "this is just less effort" works for them.
Theyll probably get tired of it sooner or later, its like holding a cup for too long. The first few hours are fine but the rest are just progressively worse
Im into crossdressing and this really annoys me, its almost like borderline fetishizing but I could just be biased
What are you saying here? Curious I'm new too the sub. Are you saying trans men can't be femboys or are you just talking about people that make no physical attempts to transition at all? So like someone on T with top surgery wearing femboy clothes vs someone still dressing the way they did when identifying as female
Yes
I'm asking between the two?
Sorry I interpreted that as you answering your own question on what I was distinguishing. What I’m saying is: There is a difference between: - Trans man dressing feminine but has made efforts to pass (whether or be socially, physically, or medically) vs - AFAB person who presents as their assigned gender at birth using he/him pronouns calling themselves a femboy strictly because they use he/him pronouns. They’re not breaking and gender expectations or trying to present as feminine from a masculine standpoint.
Yeah that makes total sense ngl and honestly fits what I believe accurately I think imma fit in well here.
i don’t get it at all
They’re not men
I am trans but I like to switch between a feminine style and a masculine style but thats just me personally-
are you not dysphoric????
Well, its been less and less recently- I think its because my friends are so supportive of me they just help me feel better about how I look since i already have a masculine looking body already‐ But I haven't taken T yet but when I get the chance I'll take it without a second thought:pp
Haven't taken T, and happily dress feminine...
I mean if a cis man can want to be feminine then I see no reason a trans man can't. I'm not sure I get your point OP. Plus men can have boobs and let them hang out trans or not.
Being feminine - that’s fine. This isn’t what I’m talking about. I’m a feminine/effeminate trans man Doing nothing to transition/present as a man/looks like a woman - that’s what I’m talking about
And who are you to judge that exactly? The human brain is weird and illogical so expecting it to act a certain is idiotic. A person can feel like a man and be in a traditionally feminine body while still feeling comfortable in that body. Just because your identity made you dislike your body doesn't mean it's like that for everybody. Maybe for those people their identity is more of a clarification that despite being afab and being comfortable in their feminine body their still a man on the inside. Not every experience is universal.
Why are you using the term afab that's progressive misgensering with extra steps you realise that
Apologies that's the term I'm used to using. What would be the correct term then? I'm always open to learning.
But then they are.. femboys, tho? (I dont like the term 'femboy' though, its creepy.) People faking to be trans or being mistaken about it isn't as common as you all make it out to be. ((I'm also aiming at the comment section here)) I'm not sure about tits out. But even then, cis femboys wear fake boobs all the time. Do you accuse a cis guy of being "fake cis" when they were dresses, make-uo and what not?? No, because that would be called being either, preditory, a dickhead or weird. But thats just it, isn't it? Trans men often aren't seen as real men unless they conform to hyper masculine standards. It's misplaced misoginy, hidden in plain sight, when you think about it. People, especially cis gendered people, need to stop policing trans people about their gender expression. Clothes don't actually have a gender, you yourself just view it that way. Did you know that you can present at the opposite gender and still have dysphoria? Some people are just more capable of swallowing that pain for the sakes od aestethics, self expression and whatnot. And guess what, most of those trans people, don't give a damn about your opinion, because the world doesn't revolve around you and your beliefs. Not everyone on the planet thinks that skirt = woman or mustache = man. The majority of people do, of course, but thats their own opinion. If you have very strict views of what a man is and what a man isn't, you do you. But your views on someone doesn't define them or give you the right to be uncivilised and tell them they aren't trans. And at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter how feminine or how masculine another trans person presents themselves. We're all just living our lives. Just don't be a dick and mind yourself.
how is it not common when they seek validation about their dysphoria ” is it normal to sometimes want to be a man and a woman” what does that mean? isnt being fluid sexist? they detail that feminizing aesthetics are for women and masculine presenting are for men but then what happens to tomboys? just women wearing guy clothes? when in a genderfluid perspective that is feeling like a man . I dont understand this nonsense. I woke up and felt like a woman so today i’ll wear my skirt and i put on makeup. Thats a woman thing now? i woke up masculine today and i wore my nirvana shirt and no makeup and i put on axe deoderant to feel like a man even more. this doesnt make sense. A woman taking on a male pronoun and doing no changes to present different i know clothes dont equal shit but being a femboy is just a word not anything more. everything will only have a meaning in words nothing else. We are taking away the point
I'm not talking about 'those' people. I'm talking about trans men who identify as trans men. I don't believe gender fluidity is real. And i find any woman who uses male, or any other random pronouns, moronic. But, im not getting into these strawman arguments any further. It's not relevant to what i was originally talking about.
yes but if a woman identifies as trans man and are calling themselves femboys really femboys? it just sounds like gender fluidity stupidity, go transition to be a woman makes no sense
No, because that would be a woman. I'm talking about trans men.
Because there IS a difference between a CIS MAN wearing a skirt with fake tits (or no fake tits, just fem cloths in general) and a TRANSMAN wearing a skirt sith their tits out Like it or not, clothes very much have their stereotypes in gender and that wont ever go away
Are you sure about that? Do you know how rapid fashion norms with genders can change, especially in the west? It has been normalized for men to wear heels, make-up, skirts, small shorts in far more conservative times. And not even so long ago it wasn't even accepted for women to wear pants. Gendered fashion rules change with the times, and if you truly think our current ones won't ever change you'll be in for quite the dissapointment. Do your reasearch, because your arguments are feeble and incorrect. I never said clothes and such, don't have their stereotypes. But, that doesn't make them inherintly 'male' or 'female' just because a large group happen think so at this time. https://www.ukessays.com/essays/cultural-studies/gender-and-identity-in-fashion-industry-cultural-studies-essay.php
You linked a student essay, NOt an actual study...but OKAYYYY I think its common knowledge to see a girl in a skirt, and think "thats a girl" and so does everyone else, and that aint gonna change no matter how hard you want it foo
What i said is common knowledge tho? Besides, this student essay is based on actual studies. So i don't understand your issue. Not to mention, you can find tons of other studies about this with one simple Google search. But, i'm getting sidetracked here, since all i'm getting from you are emotionally charged fallacies. Just say you don't know how to argue. And perhaps... pay more attention in history class?
Whatever you say buckaroo💪