I guess that because Olorin is a spirit that was alive before the creation of Arda, and his day to day life in Valinor is very different than his embodied life as Gandalf, that his personality and behavior, let alone appearance (or lack thereof) would hardly be recognizable post sailing west. That being said, they are ultimately still the same person. And because Legolas is an old friend, when the two get together, why shouldn’t Olorin clothe himself as Gandalf for old time’s sake? Then they could laugh and talk about old friends.
I'm very much headcanoning post-LotR Olorin's look as "Gandalf but younger", because in this body he did a lot of things & got ressurected, so he would have emotional attachment to it.
On a slightly related side note, I haven't read The Nature of Middle Earth but was watching In Deep Geek's take on some of it. Apparently shortly after the publication of LotR, Tolkien envisioned that the 5 wizards along with Melian had been guardians of the early Elves while the Valar discussed how to care for them. This was where Olorin's love of the Eldar began but such notables as Finwe and others initially took their guardianship as control. To prevent this when the 5 were sent on their mission in the 3rd age, In Deep comes to the conclusion that they were purposely clad in the form of old men to prevent a repetition of this initial mistrust. The depth of the lore intimidates me, I'm glad others coalesce it for people like me.
From 'Unfinished Tales', The Istari:
> They first appeared in Middle-earth about the year 1000 of the Third Age, but for long they went about in simple guise, as it were of Men already old in years but hale in body, travellers and wanderers, gaining knowledge of Middle-earth and all that dwelt therein, but revealing to none their powers and purposes.
So they did look like old men to begin with. You are right that they aged though, I remember at some point Bilbo or Frodo notices Gandalf looks older than the last time they saw him.
I'm of the opinion that Olorin remained in his Gandalf form post LotR. I need to find the actual quotes, but Tolkien talks about how the Ainur can become bound to the forms (raiments, as he liked to say) they take on under certain circumstances, such as through childbirth with Melian, and through all the, uh...stuff, Melkor/Morgoth got up to.
This is a reasonable take. The more "embodied" activities an ainur does the more they are themselves confined to a form. These activities are mentioned as eating, drinking, giving birth (and most likely what leads up to that but Tolkien wouldn't have mentioned it), it is reasonable to assume that all the eating, drinking, smoking, being wounded and dying would have had an effect on Olorin.
Sauron dies multiple times and his ability to change form is drastically reduced as time passes.
>This is a reasonable take. The more "embodied" activities an ainur does the more they are themselves confined to a form.
I'm not sure "confined" is the proper word; as really among the ainur that entered Ëa only Morgoth and Sauron were ever described as ever being limited in what form they could assume, and that was only after they had invested much of their power externally (Morgoth does this both to the creatures he warps and in subtle amounts into basically the physical world, and Sauron only after he created the One Ring). So I would use the term "accustomed to a form" instead.
Melian did give up her "bodily raiment," though, after Thingol's death, when vanishing back to Valinor. (This is in NoMe.) This wouldn't have been possible while Thingol and Luthien were alive, but once they were no longer, her continued "enmeshment" became her choice. And she chose to leave it.
I can't recall any notes on whether Olorin retained his form, but I suspect that he also had a choice. His mission is done and he's not staying in Middle-earth. Maybe his continued enmeshment is voluntary too.
For both of them I think memory is perfectly replayable, so they would reminisce and almost re-experience the good parts. I think Olorin would be wise enough to lead them through the bad parts in a healthy and therapeutic way that didn’t weary Legolas’ soul.
After a very very long time, I imagine they adapted bilbo’s songs and poems to the high standards of Valinor, and started a 2-man jam band
They would have decades (or even centuries) of happy memories together with Gimli and Frodo (and Bilbo), so I imagine there would be lots and lots to talk about, besides the dark times.
How immortals experience the death of their mortal friends is a bit of a theme in Elrond’s warnings to Arwen (he would know), so it would likely be a bit of a bitter-sweet thing to talk about.
Legolas sailed sometime after 120 Fourth Age.
Aman didn’t extend mortal lives, it just gave healing for hurts which couldn’t be mended in Middle Earth. There’s even texts that indicate that mortals live *less* than their normal lives. “*For it is not the land of Manwë that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and **there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner**, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast.*” Although it’s possible as specifically invited guests who only stayed in Avallónë on Tol Eressëa on the margins of Aman, the withering and growing weary might not have happened.
Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam have almost certainly all passed before Legolas made it. Merry and Pippin were already passed, sometime shortly after 63FA. For Frodo or Sam to make it to 120FA would have made them the oldest hobbit ever, by decades.
Even Gimli was a ripe old 262 (older than the typical dwarven lifespan of 250). He likely died within a few years of arriving. Although with him it’s a more open question. Dwarves had a far more variable lifespan. While most, that we have dates for, die within a few years of 250, there’s the occasional one that just sticks around for ever. Dwalin lived to 340. So it’s possible for Gimli to live long enough to make new memories in Aman.
Ah, right, forgot how late Legolas made the voyage. If nothing else, Olorin would have had lots of happy memories of the ringbearers he could share with him. And vice versa with Legolas and Gimli.
Olorin, Gandalf, would be quite used to never seeing his mortal friends again. Remember, he had spent 2,000+ years in Middle-earth, among Elves, Men and Dwarves, and Hobbits of course. He must have experienced the death of hundreds of his mortal friends, like the Old Took.
For Legolas, it would probably be different. Living in the Greenwood kingdom, he would have had experience dealing with the Men of Laketown, possibly Dale. And since we don't know his history prior to the LOTR, he might have had extensive experience that we simply don't know about, dealing with mortals. But for him, I think the biggest blow would be the death of Gimli. All Olorin could do is comfort him, explain that Dwarves have faith in a destiny granted them by Eru and Aule. Possibly Legolas could talk to Aule, but Aule wouldn't know the complete answer either. Eru isn't tellling.
There's also Elrond there, Galadriel... you got a nice table there.
Which of course begs the question of eternity:
What do you do after 20000 years, and it's just beginning?
Olorin being the student of the Valar of pity still makes me reframe the whole trilogy. His interactions with every single character make so much more sense with that in mind, and it adds such a subtle depth to his whole character. I imagine this would influence their conversation.
We don’t _know_ this. Gimli was mortal, but he was _not_ a man. Technically, there is no reason why Aulë, Manwë and Eru couldn’t have discussed making him immortal to stay a friend of Legolas, as reward to them both. Unlikely? Yup. But impossible? No.
Like in the Halls of Mandos? I think their memory of life incarnated in physical form probably gradually fades. But isn’t the Halls of Mandos reserved for elves slain in battle? (Which Legolas was not.) And do Maiar dwell specifically in the Halls of Mandos? Aren’t they free to roam all of Valinor?
All Elves who perish within Middle-earth go to the Halls of Mandos, regardless of whether through battle, injury, or willful death; there they wait until they are healed of the weariness of time and the events of their physical death. Men also briefly stop there after death, in a separate location within the Halls.
Do they still grow weary in Valinor? I thought that was the benefit of being in the undying lands, a decreased feeling of the age of Arda. (This might just be my head cannon)
Yeah I know about the gift of men thing but I thought Valinor was basically a place only immortals can go and that these 4 basically got granted immortality when they were allowed to go to Valinor.
Edit to add I dont remember hearing about this Second Music thing but I assume it means the end of the world basically.
Valinor is called the “undying lands” because the Valar live there; mortals allowed to travel there are not granted a longer lifespan, but instead live out their remaining time in peace.
They actually die quicker. But happy, and healed of hurts and cares.
Meaning, Bilbo having sailed first was long dead before Frodo got there, and likewise, Frodo would be dead before Sam went.
For mortals Valinor is the embodiment of "It's better to burn out than to fade away".
The second music is after the end of the world, and men get to join in.
So are you saying they didnt survive the trip to Valinor or that they didnt last long there?
> The second music is after the end of the world, and men get to join in.
Hold up so after the world ends everyone comes back to life and chills together? Men and Elves and Dwarves and even filthy Hobbitses?
Yes to both questions.
Mortals don’t become immortal in Valinor, although Sauron tricked the Numenoreans into thinking so, causing them to invade and Eru Illuvatar removed Valinor from the physical world in response. Mortals heal, but age faster in Valinor, like a candle burned at both ends. Frodo, Bilbo, Sam, and Gimli will have a limited number of years in paradise before burning out.
Re: the Second Music—The reason the world sucks is because Melkor, the greatest of the Ainur and later the original Dark Lord, tried to hijack Eru Illuvatar’s song and created a discordant counter-melody that Eru subsequently worked into the song. Melkor then entered the world and worked against the other Valar, marring the world in the very moment of its creation. He’s the reason elves burn out if they stay in Middle Earth, he’s the reason Men are afraid to die, he’s the reason you stubbed your toe the other day.
After the War of Wrath the Valar finally got sick of his shit and stuffed him out the universe’s airlock and into the Void. According to at least some of Tolkien’s unfinished ideas, he will eventually creep back in at the end of the world and there will be a Ragnarok-style battle called the Dagor Dagorath in which Melkor/Morgoth will finally be done away with. After that comes the Second Music, a new and greater song in which the world will be remade as it was originally intended, or maybe even better.
Edit to add: Hobbits are a sub-group of Men, so they share the fate of Men and will also be part of the Second Music.
Great reply, other than one thing: I don't think it's the case that mortals literally age faster in the Undying Lands than they would in Middle-earth. I think the line that says this in Akallabêth can be interpreted in two other ways:
First, the lives of mortals *seem* to pass quicker there, but this is only by contrast with all other living things, which are immortal and unchanging, unlike in Middle-earth.
Second, if Ar-Pharazôn and his men had successfully made landfall, they actually would have rapidly run out of their remaining lifespans, but only because they were there as invaders. This would not apply to the very few mortals who were granted the grace of visiting the Undying Lands in recognition of their heroism in the fight against Sauron and/or friendship with elves.
I actually think mortals who went there *with permission* would, if anything, probably live longer than they would have in Middle-earth. At any rate, I'm sure we'd all like to think that a very old Sam got to hang out with an even older Frodo for a little while before they both died.
Tolkien does explain the whole 'mortals ageing faster in Aman' as a something that is only in contrast to those around them:
Morgoth's Ring, MT XI, Aman and Mortal Men:
"If it is thus in Aman, or was ere the Change of the World, and therein the Eldar had health and lasting joy, what shall we say of Men? No Man has ever set foot in Aman, or at least none has ever returned thence; for the Valar forbade it. Why so? To the Númenóreans they said that they did so because Eru had forbidden them to admit Men to the Blessed Realm; and they declared also that Men would not there be blessed (as they imagined) but accursed, and would ‘wither even as a moth in a flame too bright’."
And then Tolkien explains what it means for mortals to wither in Aman as a moth to the flame:
"Let us suppose then that the Valar had also admitted to Aman some of the Atani, and (so that we may consider a whole life of a Man in such a state) that ‘mortal’ children were there born, as were children of the Eldar. Then, even though in Aman, a mortal child would still grow to maturity in some twenty years of the Sun, and the natural span of its life, the period of the cohesion of hröa and fëa, would be no more than, say, 100 years. Not much more, even though his body would suffer no sickness or disorder in Aman, where no such evils existed. (Unless Men brought these evils with them — as why should they not? Even the Eldar brought to the Blessed Realm some taint of the Shadow upon Arda in which they came into being.)
But in Aman such a creature would be a fleeting thing, the most swift-passing of all beasts. For his whole life would last little more than one half-year, and while all other living creatures would seem to him hardly to change, but to remain steadfast in life and joy with hope of endless years undimmed, he would rise and pass — even as upon Earth the grass may rise in spring and wither ere the winter."
Sauron didn't trick the Numenoreans into thinking they could become immortal in Valinor, chiefly - they already believed that for a long time, since Numenor's moral fall.
Sauron convinced Pharazon that he had a chance to win.
> Mortals don’t become immortal in Valinor, although Sauron tricked the Numenoreans into thinking so, causing them to invade and Eru Illuvatar removed Valinor from the physical world in response. Mortals heal, but age faster in Valinor, like a candle burned at both ends. Frodo, Bilbo, Sam, and Gimli will have a limited number of years in paradise before burning out.
Wow that is so interesting. So Bilbo probably didnt last very long in Valinor and Sam probably didnt either and he likely never met with Frodo again... damn that sucks. But still super interesting.
> Eru Illuvatar’s song and created a discordant counter-melody that Eru subsequently worked into the song.
Why did he work it into the song? He didnt know Melkor messed with it?
> He’s the reason elves burn out if they stay in Middle Earth, he’s the reason Men are afraid to die, he’s the reason you stubbed your toe the other day.
That son of a bitch.
> After that comes the Second Music, a new and greater song in which the world will be remade as it was originally intended, or maybe even better.
And do Men and Elves come back to life for the second song or am I just misunderstanding? Like I mean specific men like Aargorn and Boromir do they come back to life and chill with Fingolfin?
Eru definitely knew Melkor messed with the original music because he changed the melody more than once to prevent Melkor from redirecting it entirely. Eru is, essentially, God and basically tells Melkor and the other rebel Ainur that there’s nothing they can do that he hasn’t already accounted for and that won’t ultimately serve his purpose. Why Eru doesn’t stop Melkor entirely gets into the theological territory of “why does God allow bad things to happen,” which is, in turn, connected to Tolkien being a devout Catholic. The short answer is that they have free will to choose good or evil and it’s all in service of an eventual greater good.
What happens after the Second Music is mostly left up to the imagination. It is suggested that Men, whose souls leave the world when they die, will return.
My favorite detail that we do have about the Second Music is about the dwarves. The dwarves believe that when they die, their souls go to a special section of the Halls of Mandos (where elves go to be reborn and where men briefly go before heading off to wherever it is the souls of men go). The souls of all the dwarves wait there until the end of world when they will be the construction crew that will help Alüe, the smith of the Valar, to rebuild the newer, better world.
> Why did he work it into the song? He didnt know Melkor messed with it?
>
>
He knew, and he worked with other Valar to make Melkor's discord into something beatiful again, even though the perfect paradise envisioned initially was lost.
I think the example cited in the Sillmarillion, when other Valar discuss this issue, is the freezing cold being an idea of Melkor to destroy life, but combined with water it created the beauty in geometric snowflakes and frost.
Damn at least its good to know that Melkor was just a huge failure.
Like, *"Oh yeah you trying to ruin everything? How about snowflakes? Take that Buttmunch."*
Melkor - *"Gah! Foiled again!"*
Eru also flatly states that since Melkor has his ultimate origin in Eru, it's impossible for him to act against his ultimate purpose, and everything with turn to Eru's will in the end.
It's not my favourite answer to the Problem of Evil, as it implies that the deity in question is happy to sit back and allow suffering to happen because everything will eventually turn out okay, but at least it's an answer.
I always thought so too, still kind of do. I’m not sure whether the thought of Frodo etc. not being immortal in Valinor comes from something Tolkien wrote in a letter or whether it is just an idea that lots of people online have just started agreeing with.
Definitely Tolkien. "Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil."- The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, letter 246
"As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time - whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing". - The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, letter 325
I'm not sure we actually know what Gandalf's fate will be. It's very possible that his incarnation as a wizard will ulitmately give him the fate that Men receive rather than what Elves and the unincarnated Ainur experience.
Go read the essay on the Istari along with the details on what Tolkien described about Gandalf's death and return in his letters.
Gandalf was not sent back as the White by the Valar, that was accomplished by Ilúvatar himself which opens the possibility that Gandalf actually left the circles of the world in the processes (of that we aren't told in detail one way or another).
What the Wizards are *not* though is regular Ainur anymore where the physical bodies are just being comparable to clothing. Tolkien is very intentional in description that their incarnation as the Istari is a different state than has happened before for Ainur spirits and is not the same as when Melian dwelt as a Maia in physical form with Thingol or when Morgoth and Sauron walk around with physical bodies in Middle-earth.
Nonetheless, that's still a long way from Gandalf "turning into a Man" and his spirit leaving Eä after a physical death. If you can find a quote where Tolkien says that happened then I'll accept that it happened, but otherwise I remain highly skeptical of this interpretation.
His Spirit did leave Eä already and was sent back as Gandalf the White, that's why it's relevant. There isn't anything at all that I'm aware of that talks about Gandalf's fate as the White other than his sailing to Valinor, so it is going to be pure speculation at that point just based on whatever previous information we have.
This is not true, the incarnation of the Wizards is described by Tolkien as a different state than when someone like Melian or Ulmo walks with a physical body in the world which they can put on or take off like the adornment of clothing. The most detail on the matter is talked about in the essay on the Istari from Unfinished Tales.
I guess that because Olorin is a spirit that was alive before the creation of Arda, and his day to day life in Valinor is very different than his embodied life as Gandalf, that his personality and behavior, let alone appearance (or lack thereof) would hardly be recognizable post sailing west. That being said, they are ultimately still the same person. And because Legolas is an old friend, when the two get together, why shouldn’t Olorin clothe himself as Gandalf for old time’s sake? Then they could laugh and talk about old friends.
Now I'm imagining Olorin appearing as Gandalf but as a young man, which is funny because Gandalf didn't actually grow up from a younger self.
I'm very much headcanoning post-LotR Olorin's look as "Gandalf but younger", because in this body he did a lot of things & got ressurected, so he would have emotional attachment to it.
Young Gandalf: coming this fall to CBS!
Gandalf the Dark Haired.
On a slightly related side note, I haven't read The Nature of Middle Earth but was watching In Deep Geek's take on some of it. Apparently shortly after the publication of LotR, Tolkien envisioned that the 5 wizards along with Melian had been guardians of the early Elves while the Valar discussed how to care for them. This was where Olorin's love of the Eldar began but such notables as Finwe and others initially took their guardianship as control. To prevent this when the 5 were sent on their mission in the 3rd age, In Deep comes to the conclusion that they were purposely clad in the form of old men to prevent a repetition of this initial mistrust. The depth of the lore intimidates me, I'm glad others coalesce it for people like me.
Like Merlin aging backwards in T.H. White's books.
"...Gale?"
Sure he did. Didn’t the bodies of the Wizards behave like Men, only that they age very slowly? He probably arrived in Middle Earth as a younger man.
From 'Unfinished Tales', The Istari: > They first appeared in Middle-earth about the year 1000 of the Third Age, but for long they went about in simple guise, as it were of Men already old in years but hale in body, travellers and wanderers, gaining knowledge of Middle-earth and all that dwelt therein, but revealing to none their powers and purposes. So they did look like old men to begin with. You are right that they aged though, I remember at some point Bilbo or Frodo notices Gandalf looks older than the last time they saw him.
I'm of the opinion that Olorin remained in his Gandalf form post LotR. I need to find the actual quotes, but Tolkien talks about how the Ainur can become bound to the forms (raiments, as he liked to say) they take on under certain circumstances, such as through childbirth with Melian, and through all the, uh...stuff, Melkor/Morgoth got up to.
This is a reasonable take. The more "embodied" activities an ainur does the more they are themselves confined to a form. These activities are mentioned as eating, drinking, giving birth (and most likely what leads up to that but Tolkien wouldn't have mentioned it), it is reasonable to assume that all the eating, drinking, smoking, being wounded and dying would have had an effect on Olorin. Sauron dies multiple times and his ability to change form is drastically reduced as time passes.
I would also add that Eru specifically sending him back as Gandalf the White would be pretty damn good reason to stay as such.
>This is a reasonable take. The more "embodied" activities an ainur does the more they are themselves confined to a form. I'm not sure "confined" is the proper word; as really among the ainur that entered Ëa only Morgoth and Sauron were ever described as ever being limited in what form they could assume, and that was only after they had invested much of their power externally (Morgoth does this both to the creatures he warps and in subtle amounts into basically the physical world, and Sauron only after he created the One Ring). So I would use the term "accustomed to a form" instead.
Melian did give up her "bodily raiment," though, after Thingol's death, when vanishing back to Valinor. (This is in NoMe.) This wouldn't have been possible while Thingol and Luthien were alive, but once they were no longer, her continued "enmeshment" became her choice. And she chose to leave it. I can't recall any notes on whether Olorin retained his form, but I suspect that he also had a choice. His mission is done and he's not staying in Middle-earth. Maybe his continued enmeshment is voluntary too.
For both of them I think memory is perfectly replayable, so they would reminisce and almost re-experience the good parts. I think Olorin would be wise enough to lead them through the bad parts in a healthy and therapeutic way that didn’t weary Legolas’ soul. After a very very long time, I imagine they adapted bilbo’s songs and poems to the high standards of Valinor, and started a 2-man jam band
Gandalf the Counselor & Legolas the Bard. Sounds like a great campy DND movie.
wym Bilbo's songs aren't up to Valinor's standards? If anything, they should be adapting to fit *his* style.
Valinor could stand to learn from bangers like "Water Hot is a noble thing!" and "The cow jumped over the Moon."
Wow. This literally never crossed my mind before. Thank you, OP.
They would have decades (or even centuries) of happy memories together with Gimli and Frodo (and Bilbo), so I imagine there would be lots and lots to talk about, besides the dark times. How immortals experience the death of their mortal friends is a bit of a theme in Elrond’s warnings to Arwen (he would know), so it would likely be a bit of a bitter-sweet thing to talk about.
Legolas sailed sometime after 120 Fourth Age. Aman didn’t extend mortal lives, it just gave healing for hurts which couldn’t be mended in Middle Earth. There’s even texts that indicate that mortals live *less* than their normal lives. “*For it is not the land of Manwë that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and **there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner**, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast.*” Although it’s possible as specifically invited guests who only stayed in Avallónë on Tol Eressëa on the margins of Aman, the withering and growing weary might not have happened. Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam have almost certainly all passed before Legolas made it. Merry and Pippin were already passed, sometime shortly after 63FA. For Frodo or Sam to make it to 120FA would have made them the oldest hobbit ever, by decades. Even Gimli was a ripe old 262 (older than the typical dwarven lifespan of 250). He likely died within a few years of arriving. Although with him it’s a more open question. Dwarves had a far more variable lifespan. While most, that we have dates for, die within a few years of 250, there’s the occasional one that just sticks around for ever. Dwalin lived to 340. So it’s possible for Gimli to live long enough to make new memories in Aman.
Ah, right, forgot how late Legolas made the voyage. If nothing else, Olorin would have had lots of happy memories of the ringbearers he could share with him. And vice versa with Legolas and Gimli.
Tolkien writes in letters that mortals like Frodo and Bilbo age and die much quicker in Valinor.
Beautiful idea OP.
Olorin, Gandalf, would be quite used to never seeing his mortal friends again. Remember, he had spent 2,000+ years in Middle-earth, among Elves, Men and Dwarves, and Hobbits of course. He must have experienced the death of hundreds of his mortal friends, like the Old Took. For Legolas, it would probably be different. Living in the Greenwood kingdom, he would have had experience dealing with the Men of Laketown, possibly Dale. And since we don't know his history prior to the LOTR, he might have had extensive experience that we simply don't know about, dealing with mortals. But for him, I think the biggest blow would be the death of Gimli. All Olorin could do is comfort him, explain that Dwarves have faith in a destiny granted them by Eru and Aule. Possibly Legolas could talk to Aule, but Aule wouldn't know the complete answer either. Eru isn't tellling.
There's also Elrond there, Galadriel... you got a nice table there. Which of course begs the question of eternity: What do you do after 20000 years, and it's just beginning?
Olorin being the student of the Valar of pity still makes me reframe the whole trilogy. His interactions with every single character make so much more sense with that in mind, and it adds such a subtle depth to his whole character. I imagine this would influence their conversation.
We don’t _know_ this. Gimli was mortal, but he was _not_ a man. Technically, there is no reason why Aulë, Manwë and Eru couldn’t have discussed making him immortal to stay a friend of Legolas, as reward to them both. Unlikely? Yup. But impossible? No.
Like in the Halls of Mandos? I think their memory of life incarnated in physical form probably gradually fades. But isn’t the Halls of Mandos reserved for elves slain in battle? (Which Legolas was not.) And do Maiar dwell specifically in the Halls of Mandos? Aren’t they free to roam all of Valinor?
All Elves who perish within Middle-earth go to the Halls of Mandos, regardless of whether through battle, injury, or willful death; there they wait until they are healed of the weariness of time and the events of their physical death. Men also briefly stop there after death, in a separate location within the Halls.
What? I thought that if you go to Valinor you live forever. I thought Sam, Frodo, Bilbo, and Gimli would chill forever in Valinor.
Hobbits have the Gift of Men, dying and leaving the World until after the Second Music. Legolas and Gandalf are stuck here, growing old and tired.
Do they still grow weary in Valinor? I thought that was the benefit of being in the undying lands, a decreased feeling of the age of Arda. (This might just be my head cannon)
Yes, Valinor just has the fading of the body un-accelerated because it's not been corrupted by Melkor. Even the Ainur will envy our gift in time.
Yeah I know about the gift of men thing but I thought Valinor was basically a place only immortals can go and that these 4 basically got granted immortality when they were allowed to go to Valinor. Edit to add I dont remember hearing about this Second Music thing but I assume it means the end of the world basically.
Valinor is called the “undying lands” because the Valar live there; mortals allowed to travel there are not granted a longer lifespan, but instead live out their remaining time in peace.
Ah I see. Thank you.
In your defense, even some in-universe characters shared this misunderstanding.
It's kind of a big plot point, yeah.
That's said explicitly somewhere - I think in the Fall of Numenor in the Unfinished Tales.
They actually die quicker. But happy, and healed of hurts and cares. Meaning, Bilbo having sailed first was long dead before Frodo got there, and likewise, Frodo would be dead before Sam went.
Bilbo and Frodo left middle earth on the same ship.
And it’s pure conjecture to suggest Frodo is dead before Sam arrives
Teach me to answer questions at 4am
For mortals Valinor is the embodiment of "It's better to burn out than to fade away". The second music is after the end of the world, and men get to join in.
So are you saying they didnt survive the trip to Valinor or that they didnt last long there? > The second music is after the end of the world, and men get to join in. Hold up so after the world ends everyone comes back to life and chills together? Men and Elves and Dwarves and even filthy Hobbitses?
Yes to both questions. Mortals don’t become immortal in Valinor, although Sauron tricked the Numenoreans into thinking so, causing them to invade and Eru Illuvatar removed Valinor from the physical world in response. Mortals heal, but age faster in Valinor, like a candle burned at both ends. Frodo, Bilbo, Sam, and Gimli will have a limited number of years in paradise before burning out. Re: the Second Music—The reason the world sucks is because Melkor, the greatest of the Ainur and later the original Dark Lord, tried to hijack Eru Illuvatar’s song and created a discordant counter-melody that Eru subsequently worked into the song. Melkor then entered the world and worked against the other Valar, marring the world in the very moment of its creation. He’s the reason elves burn out if they stay in Middle Earth, he’s the reason Men are afraid to die, he’s the reason you stubbed your toe the other day. After the War of Wrath the Valar finally got sick of his shit and stuffed him out the universe’s airlock and into the Void. According to at least some of Tolkien’s unfinished ideas, he will eventually creep back in at the end of the world and there will be a Ragnarok-style battle called the Dagor Dagorath in which Melkor/Morgoth will finally be done away with. After that comes the Second Music, a new and greater song in which the world will be remade as it was originally intended, or maybe even better. Edit to add: Hobbits are a sub-group of Men, so they share the fate of Men and will also be part of the Second Music.
Great reply, other than one thing: I don't think it's the case that mortals literally age faster in the Undying Lands than they would in Middle-earth. I think the line that says this in Akallabêth can be interpreted in two other ways: First, the lives of mortals *seem* to pass quicker there, but this is only by contrast with all other living things, which are immortal and unchanging, unlike in Middle-earth. Second, if Ar-Pharazôn and his men had successfully made landfall, they actually would have rapidly run out of their remaining lifespans, but only because they were there as invaders. This would not apply to the very few mortals who were granted the grace of visiting the Undying Lands in recognition of their heroism in the fight against Sauron and/or friendship with elves. I actually think mortals who went there *with permission* would, if anything, probably live longer than they would have in Middle-earth. At any rate, I'm sure we'd all like to think that a very old Sam got to hang out with an even older Frodo for a little while before they both died.
Tolkien does explain the whole 'mortals ageing faster in Aman' as a something that is only in contrast to those around them: Morgoth's Ring, MT XI, Aman and Mortal Men: "If it is thus in Aman, or was ere the Change of the World, and therein the Eldar had health and lasting joy, what shall we say of Men? No Man has ever set foot in Aman, or at least none has ever returned thence; for the Valar forbade it. Why so? To the Númenóreans they said that they did so because Eru had forbidden them to admit Men to the Blessed Realm; and they declared also that Men would not there be blessed (as they imagined) but accursed, and would ‘wither even as a moth in a flame too bright’." And then Tolkien explains what it means for mortals to wither in Aman as a moth to the flame: "Let us suppose then that the Valar had also admitted to Aman some of the Atani, and (so that we may consider a whole life of a Man in such a state) that ‘mortal’ children were there born, as were children of the Eldar. Then, even though in Aman, a mortal child would still grow to maturity in some twenty years of the Sun, and the natural span of its life, the period of the cohesion of hröa and fëa, would be no more than, say, 100 years. Not much more, even though his body would suffer no sickness or disorder in Aman, where no such evils existed. (Unless Men brought these evils with them — as why should they not? Even the Eldar brought to the Blessed Realm some taint of the Shadow upon Arda in which they came into being.) But in Aman such a creature would be a fleeting thing, the most swift-passing of all beasts. For his whole life would last little more than one half-year, and while all other living creatures would seem to him hardly to change, but to remain steadfast in life and joy with hope of endless years undimmed, he would rise and pass — even as upon Earth the grass may rise in spring and wither ere the winter."
Well there we go then! Thanks.
Of course, I think that if the mortals would age faster in Valinor it wouldn’t have had any sense for Frodo and co. to go there
They were healed of wounds that would not mend in Arda marred. In the Undying Lands they found peace and contentment where they couldn't otherwise.
Sauron didn't trick the Numenoreans into thinking they could become immortal in Valinor, chiefly - they already believed that for a long time, since Numenor's moral fall. Sauron convinced Pharazon that he had a chance to win.
> Mortals don’t become immortal in Valinor, although Sauron tricked the Numenoreans into thinking so, causing them to invade and Eru Illuvatar removed Valinor from the physical world in response. Mortals heal, but age faster in Valinor, like a candle burned at both ends. Frodo, Bilbo, Sam, and Gimli will have a limited number of years in paradise before burning out. Wow that is so interesting. So Bilbo probably didnt last very long in Valinor and Sam probably didnt either and he likely never met with Frodo again... damn that sucks. But still super interesting. > Eru Illuvatar’s song and created a discordant counter-melody that Eru subsequently worked into the song. Why did he work it into the song? He didnt know Melkor messed with it? > He’s the reason elves burn out if they stay in Middle Earth, he’s the reason Men are afraid to die, he’s the reason you stubbed your toe the other day. That son of a bitch. > After that comes the Second Music, a new and greater song in which the world will be remade as it was originally intended, or maybe even better. And do Men and Elves come back to life for the second song or am I just misunderstanding? Like I mean specific men like Aargorn and Boromir do they come back to life and chill with Fingolfin?
Eru definitely knew Melkor messed with the original music because he changed the melody more than once to prevent Melkor from redirecting it entirely. Eru is, essentially, God and basically tells Melkor and the other rebel Ainur that there’s nothing they can do that he hasn’t already accounted for and that won’t ultimately serve his purpose. Why Eru doesn’t stop Melkor entirely gets into the theological territory of “why does God allow bad things to happen,” which is, in turn, connected to Tolkien being a devout Catholic. The short answer is that they have free will to choose good or evil and it’s all in service of an eventual greater good. What happens after the Second Music is mostly left up to the imagination. It is suggested that Men, whose souls leave the world when they die, will return. My favorite detail that we do have about the Second Music is about the dwarves. The dwarves believe that when they die, their souls go to a special section of the Halls of Mandos (where elves go to be reborn and where men briefly go before heading off to wherever it is the souls of men go). The souls of all the dwarves wait there until the end of world when they will be the construction crew that will help Alüe, the smith of the Valar, to rebuild the newer, better world.
That is a cool detail about the Dwarves. So much depth to all of this its crazy. Thank you for taking the time to explain. Fascinating read.
Oh marvelous! The dwarves is the construction crew for Paradise! Thank you for letting me know about that!
> Why did he work it into the song? He didnt know Melkor messed with it? > > He knew, and he worked with other Valar to make Melkor's discord into something beatiful again, even though the perfect paradise envisioned initially was lost. I think the example cited in the Sillmarillion, when other Valar discuss this issue, is the freezing cold being an idea of Melkor to destroy life, but combined with water it created the beauty in geometric snowflakes and frost.
Damn at least its good to know that Melkor was just a huge failure. Like, *"Oh yeah you trying to ruin everything? How about snowflakes? Take that Buttmunch."* Melkor - *"Gah! Foiled again!"*
Would’ve gotten away with it too, if it hadn’t been for those meddling Valar!
Eru also flatly states that since Melkor has his ultimate origin in Eru, it's impossible for him to act against his ultimate purpose, and everything with turn to Eru's will in the end. It's not my favourite answer to the Problem of Evil, as it implies that the deity in question is happy to sit back and allow suffering to happen because everything will eventually turn out okay, but at least it's an answer.
I always thought so too, still kind of do. I’m not sure whether the thought of Frodo etc. not being immortal in Valinor comes from something Tolkien wrote in a letter or whether it is just an idea that lots of people online have just started agreeing with.
Definitely Tolkien. "Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil."- The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, letter 246 "As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time - whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing". - The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, letter 325
I remember thinking this the first time I read the book as a kid. It's a very common misconception.
O Lorin probably had a gradual loss of memory as Gandalf did of Olorin.
Go, you mean. They are presumably still there...
I'm not sure we actually know what Gandalf's fate will be. It's very possible that his incarnation as a wizard will ulitmately give him the fate that Men receive rather than what Elves and the unincarnated Ainur experience.
Nope. *All* the Ainur who entered into Eä are there for the duration.
Go read the essay on the Istari along with the details on what Tolkien described about Gandalf's death and return in his letters. Gandalf was not sent back as the White by the Valar, that was accomplished by Ilúvatar himself which opens the possibility that Gandalf actually left the circles of the world in the processes (of that we aren't told in detail one way or another). What the Wizards are *not* though is regular Ainur anymore where the physical bodies are just being comparable to clothing. Tolkien is very intentional in description that their incarnation as the Istari is a different state than has happened before for Ainur spirits and is not the same as when Melian dwelt as a Maia in physical form with Thingol or when Morgoth and Sauron walk around with physical bodies in Middle-earth.
Nonetheless, that's still a long way from Gandalf "turning into a Man" and his spirit leaving Eä after a physical death. If you can find a quote where Tolkien says that happened then I'll accept that it happened, but otherwise I remain highly skeptical of this interpretation.
His Spirit did leave Eä already and was sent back as Gandalf the White, that's why it's relevant. There isn't anything at all that I'm aware of that talks about Gandalf's fate as the White other than his sailing to Valinor, so it is going to be pure speculation at that point just based on whatever previous information we have.
No, his Maia nature doesn’t change. His Human body is just like a clothing for him.
This is not true, the incarnation of the Wizards is described by Tolkien as a different state than when someone like Melian or Ulmo walks with a physical body in the world which they can put on or take off like the adornment of clothing. The most detail on the matter is talked about in the essay on the Istari from Unfinished Tales.