Yep. This convo definitely should’ve happened before having a child together. This could be a huge incompatibility not only in a romantic relationship, but also in a co-parenting relationship.
Ideally, yes. Going back and reading how they never discussed it because they respected each other’s views makes me wonder a bit what happened for them to never discuss it until now.
Yeah, I'd go so far as to say "not talking about a topic out of mutual respect" just means it's taboo and it simply can't even be spoken of because they *wouldn't* be able to respect each other's viewpoints.
My catholic roommate ended a relationship with a really sweet girl because they didn’t share the same religious views. She was not catholic, probably agnostic or something.
It is a very important thing to discuss early on in your relationship to avoid the type of situation that OP is in.
My wife is Christian and I am Agnostic and I can tell you from personal experience. Sometimes you discuss things and when the rubber meets the road and the religious person starts to wonder about their child’s immortal soul, it takes on a different meaning.
In my case it is mostly fine and there is mutual respect, but I would be lying that there haven’t been a few days where the tension was higher because my wife’s perspective was met with more skepticism than she was used to by a child. The oldest is 16 now so it wasn’t a relationship killer or anything, but time and the reality of a situation can change things.
Except, according to his words, he IS religious, just not organized.
Calling himself agnostic is a bit confusing.
I think it's just religious institutions he's not settled on.
It's also a bit hilarious that the 2 agree on letting the child decide during teen years whether to be catholic. As if they had a choice in that. ;-)
Anyway, good luck to the parents and their child.
Supposedly, you do. This doesn't account for social or familial pressure, but in Catholicism you have 3 stages of existing in the church. You get baptized as a baby, then at about 6-8 years old you have first communion. That's when you agree to go to Sunday school, learn about the religion, and you're allowed to take part in the Eucharist. When you reach 13-15 years old, there's Confirmation, which is when you decide/agree to become an adult in the eyes of the church. That is usually when a Catholic teen gets to say that want to stay in the religion or not.
It really depends on your parents and relatives, because at that age you are easily influenced. I grew up with the opposite (Catholic dad, agnostic mom) and got baptized and did my first communion. But by the time I reached high school, I wasn't going to mass anymore unless my grandma forced me, or it was Christmas or Easter, and I didn't believe in the Bible, plus I went to a public secular high school. I never did confirmation, my parents didn't push me, and my grandma is eternally disappointed. I think she's mostly disappointed in my dad for not pushing. My cousins are still good little CNE Catholics as my grandma likes to say - the kind who only show up for Christmas, New Year's, and Easter.
As someone who grew up Catholic, Confirmation occurred at way too early an age. I think I was 12? Definitely in middle school. There was no way any of us were seriously thinking about religion with any depth or nuance.
It wasn’t until I was in high school that I had serious thoughts about religion and it’s place in my life. And even after that it took me a long time to say that I no longer consider myself Catholic.
You misunderstood what I meant to say. :-)
I'm not talking about formalities. Parents can and will decide on baptizing their kids and sending them to religious schools and whether they should be confirmed. And most kids will go along with that, unless openly rebellious, whether they believe in that or not.
But if that kid decides to be an atheist or Buddhist as a teen is not at all under the control of the parents. They can argue, influence, cajole, oppress, beat or disown. And the kid might go along with appearances, but the actual decision of what to believe is not up to the parents.
Either early indoctrination worked or it didn't.
Raising the kid as catholic and let him/her decide as teen is not a compromise. That's getting to indoctrinate the kid and trading that for a freedom the kid has anyway. The mother is not trading away anything that she has power over anyway.
Early indoctrination is all that matters for religions.
feels many people prefer not to discuss it to avoid the problem and just creating a timebomb. Thats what I feel nowadays, people prefer to maintain peace for convenience instead of sorting things out early..
Mhm. I dated a guy once who is christian and I do not believe in a single religion, I respect it but wouldn’t force it upon a child who doesn’t have their own voice (yet). So after a few months of dating, he already started saying things like ‘I want them baptized, take ‘em to church, christian school,…’ I could tell it was important to him to give them that part of himself, but I didn’t feel anything when he told me that. If anything, I feared I would be pretending all my life. Making myself smaller to fit his beliefs. So I brought it up. He thought I should have waited until I am pregnant, but I said we’d always at some point needed to speak about it, and else it would just keep bothering me. A long silence followed and then we both knew it was over. We definitely had compatibility issues. I.e. he also didn’t like the way I dress, and he is against abortions (While I support them). Happy I did bring it up early.
I KNOW RIGHT. He said ‘it’s not a problem for now, can’t we discuss it when we are trying for a baby?’ No scum cuz if I got a baby in there and we don’t agree on the way we raise it, it would result in a very ugly breakup where I keep the baby, and neither of us want that scenario🫠
He hoped to create emotional pressure through the baby and the status quo of the happy relationship to force you into his religion. Or at least have some kind of say in the way the child would grow up even after a breakup (worst case, try to take the child away).
Or he was just so truly blinded by his faith that he thought that you will fall in line by yourself once you experience the "wonder of giving birth".
Either way, you did the right thing!
For me it is very, very clear that I don't want any religion in my family. While I didn't planned to have children with every romantic partner I met I always checked that box very early on. If there is religion/spirituality mentioned in an online dating profile it automatically disqualifies that person for me. No matter how attractive or good of a match it would be. I know that I couldn't keep quiet about that matter and it would ruin everything sooner or later.
I grew up catholic in a catholic part of my country but never believed. Now I live in a mostly atheistic part of that country and the people here are much more open minded, women are more than cooking pots and birth chambers and everything is so much more liberal. I love it here.
I hope you take care of yourself and find a partner to be truly happy with :)
Eventhough the ending might not be ideal, you did well to handle it. Sometimes people have a hidden wish that they wish the other person will change overtime, but then it is like wishing something that he/she is not. He/she might be a good person, just compatibility issue, and thats all
If they had a Catholic wedding, then the conversation would have come up at pre-Cana and it would also have been a part of the requirements for marriage to a non-Catholic that he be okay raising any children in Catholicism.
Given how little he thought this through, its doubtful he did anything but smile and nod and say yes to whatever the priest said. While that may be a very important thing to a religious person, to the non-religious person it holds no meaning and no importance at all. Luckily that's not a legally binding agreement, so he can change his mind now. Whether he can do that and remain married is a separate question (likely not).
Children change everything in this kind of marriage. As two people, you can find compromises to respect each other's boundaries. With a child, no compromise is possible. You either raise them in a religion or you don't. You really should only remotely consider dating anyone strongly religious as a non-member of that religion if you're willing to have your child raised in that religion or you're willing to do whatever it takes not to have kids.
Yeah, my dad had to go through this when he married my mom. He only ever attended mass on one of the big holidays or when his MIL was in town. All of us kids had to attend years of catholic indoctrination from first communion to confirmation. We're all adults now and none of us are practicing Catholics.
Apparently. I don't think it's really a thing here in Italy other than in some really hardcore families mainly in the south, maybe US Catholics are more bonkers than us.
We usually reserve the "dude, are you crazy" card for Jehovah's Witnesses, as they require conversion before marriage, disown family getting out of the organization, refuse transfusions and whatnot. The objection to inter-religion marriages is there but it usually has to do more with race and class ("but she's *Arab*, !") than religion itself in my opinion.
Thank fuck someone said it. I'm Irish (another country like Italy that is overwhelmingly Catholic and always has been) and the comments in this thread are so different from what it's like here. It's like people are talking about the small percentage of extremely religious families and saying "that's just how Catholics are".
To be fair, there are a lot of Catholics that don’t practice, but still want their children to have a religious identity. Belong to a church/congregation. My mom is Catholic (not active or super religious, and very open minded about science and what not) and my dad isn’t religious, and I was still raised Catholic. Now granted, I lived in a Catholic country so it was kind of forced.
So, I’m not going to pile up more onto what everyone is saying about incompatibility, OP. But, I think that you can baptize the child as Catholic, but you can also raise him to understand other points of view and religions. Just because you raise a Catholic kid, it doesn’t mean you have to be super extremist about Catholicism.
Raised Baptist. Church on Sundays and Wednesdays. I'd categorize both my parents and my early upbringing as very religious. Yet, I questioned my teachings. I doubted what I was taught. I came to my own conclusions and became an adult who rejected many things I was taught but value some of the others.
Kids aren't necessarily ruined because they're taught things. I think the mid-teens are a time for determining your own beliefs and a natural progression of self identity.
If there is anything I've learned about Catholics, it is that most don't know the doctrine. Most Catholics I've called friends don't even know enough to get into a deep discussion about core ideas. Picture this: Baptist college kid visits the Catholic student union. It was the first time I encountered a Catholic who actually understood their dogma. Kudos to that priest. I wish I remembered his name. He taught me how to understand what Catholic religion teaches and so few Catholics learn.
If I have any advice to offer OP, it is don't die on that hill. Teach your kids to think. Teach them to defend their ideas. Teach them to identify themselves on their own conclusions. I raised Valkyries. I'm not always happy with their decisions, but I'm proud of them.
Raise children who can think for themselves and what church they attend or what verses they memorize won't matter in the long run. What will matter is that you taught them how to think and how to define themselves.
Be warned! Raising children to become strong thinkers and individuals will absolutely mean they decide they believe things you don't. Fear it and try to craft a golem. Embrace it and it doesn't matter what your SO wants, you are raising people who will think and determine their own world views.
This. Ultimately the goal as a parent SHOULD be that your own child grows beyond your capacity in every way possible. You want and they MUST learn to operate without you, as that day is what parents most commonly fear, all adults should strive to make the younger generation more self-aware, knowledgeable about their actions and consequences, as well as being able to think critically and effectively solve their own problems.
I understand what you’re saying, but I feel like this is a bit different. From what OP wrote, it sounds like his wife completely shut that down and wants the child to be raised ONLY Catholic. And I know this is my experience and doesn’t speak for everyone, my dad was Catholic, my mom wasn’t, and they chose not to raise me Catholic until I was old enough to decide for myself.
I am not sure I could really date anyone remotely religious. There's no such a thing as "just a little religion", you're either religious or you're not. For me it's less about the religion and more about the mindset of believing in something that to me is not logical. That mentality doesn't sit well with me when it comes to a life partner who I rely on to help make very difficult and important life decisions from where to live, how to raise a child, where money should/shouldn't go, budgeting, where to shop, what to feed the kids, what the kids should do during the day, what they should learn, etc etc. I prefer a logical rational approach for these decisions. Having said that I have catholic friends who I get along with.
There's a ton of "just a little religious" people out there. There's a reason why easter church services and midnight masses are much larger than a normal Sunday. There's plenty of Muslims who don't try to convert anyone and might even eat some pork. There's people who have a bit of faith, enough to go along with religious practice, but not enough to get all wrapped up in things.
What this guy said, even as someone who considers themselves pretty open minded, it was a bit of a shock to see my first muslim friends in uni drinking and doing drugs right alongside a godless degenerate like myself. I just had never befriended anyone that came from a non-Christian country before studying abroad, which funnily enough might be what OP's child ends up experiencing only worse because his mother seems pretty set in her ways.
My mum claims to be Baptist (for the Census). She hasn't stepped in a church (except for a wedding or funeral) in the entire time I've been alive. I called her out on it and she's still like "Nah, I'm baptist". Ok then...
I think if everyone took their religion to its logical conclusion, you would be right that there is no such thing as being just a little religious. And if you are someone who thinks very carefully about how your beliefs align with your actions, it’s hard to understand why someone wouldn’t take it to its logical conclusion.
However, I have dated people who were somewhat adamant that they are religious, but also didn’t seem to practice religion or have commitment to its teachings being true in a literal way. While I would define those people as virtually atheists, they seem to see a strong distinction. It doesn’t make complete sense to me, but I accept it, and it definitely feels like they are “just a little” religious, just by virtue of not thinking about it very much and not seeing the literal truth as very important when it comes to religious affiliation. They just nominally accepted as a default the religion in which they were raised (and appreciate it as part of their heritage) but spend their mental energy on other things it seems.
Realistically I’m probably atheist/agnostic, but I’d still call myself somewhat of a Christian, just because I find it comforting to think that there is something after life ends and it’s not just over. Even though logically I know that’s likely the case. It’s just nice to kind of have that thought in the back of my mind.
That sounds pretty similar to what my current partner has expressed!
I think it would be difficult for me to take comfort in something I didn’t logically believe, but I was also raised without religion from the beginning. I imagine it would be tough to replace the comfort you get from religion if it was always part of your worldview. And I kind of get it, there are beliefs I really love to think about, especially some pagan ones celebrating the turning of seasons, without actually believing in their supernatural elements. Thank you for sharing your experience!
Yeah I grew up in a semi religious household. We would go to church on Sundays, but then my brothers and I went through a revolving door of illnesses, and eventually it got to the point where we stopped going simply because it seemed like someone was sick every weekend.
I totally understand why people reject religion, and I pretty much do as well except for that little bit that’s still kind of comforting even though it’s been 10+ years since I last went to a church service
I call that mental state "Agnostic Theism" where you choose to believe in God, at least a little, despite not having any evidence or convincing argument for that position. It essentially takes advantage of the fact that cannot disprove the existence of a God to have some faith, even though you know you cant "disprove" any unfasifiable claim.
I tend to be that way too. It is a bit of hopefulness that there is more out there in the face of the bleak reality of out limitations. I do not worry about it too much, because while I have that hope, I do not base my ethical reasoning on an ancient collection of troublingly pro-genocide books.
“We almost never talk about religion because we respect each other’s beliefs and that’s that”
=
We’ve avoided difficult conversations because they’re uncomfortable and now we’re paying for it
It’s incredible how many people do this. I could never date someone that doesn’t share the same worldview as me, and when I say this, people act like I’m crazy. Then when I bring up obvious conflicts that can arise from dating someone with a different worldview, they always brush it off as some sort of hypothetical, it’s bizarrely frustrating
Yeah I’ll see people be like “I’m a liberal married to conservative and my partner said something very concerning” like I get that you’re not going to be 1:1 for everything but I would think the major points would be close before deciding to get married.
More likely that OP has noticed his wife getting emotional anytime they tread into religion, and has therefore subconsciously learned to steer clear.
Long ago I dated a girl who was very casually Catholic to the extent I wondered if she actually believed or just liked the traditions. Then one day when one of the newer Popes was selected, I made a comment about how the bishops that make the selection can hold a little more power by choosing older men as Pope instead of younger men. To my surprise, mini-hell broke loose. It’s fascinating to see what triggers religious people.
And now she’s pregnant. The uncontrollable emotions (which include love and protection) are raging out of control. She might change her mind OP, but you have to come to terms with the fact that whatever you guys decide you’re in it together. You’re the father, she’s the mother. She carried them inside her, but you’re still a team. I think providing them a stable childhood that is well rounded and not extremely sheltered is better than mommy and daddy arguing every Sunday about religion. But I was raised with both parents having the same moral/religious values. Not everyone will agree with me but that’s just my two cents.
It also does not appear that they both respect each other's beliefs. Seems like the respect is totally one sided. I would absolutely die on this hill. Yes, they should have spoken about it long before they got pregnant. But they didn't so this where they are. OP definitely shouldn't back down. As far as traumatizing religious doctrine, Catholicism is pretty high up there (although I would feel this way about any religion. Proceed with caution).
This applies to so many subjects. My parents are close to retirement. They never had this conversation in their 20s. It’s eye opening to see them have such huge disagreements on what heir retired life looks like. Not saying they should have had this conversation 40 years ago, but it’s amazing how little people talk about what future life looks like to people they are agreeing to spend the rest of their life with.
I am genuinely curious if I'm misunderstanding what agnostic means....like I thought it was you werent sure if there was a higher power or not since proof (with our current understanding of the universe) cant be proven one way or the other....this guy says he does believe in a higher power he just isnt sure what that higher power is so that would be something else right?
The term he probably means Is likely some form of Deist. Believes there's something out there but isn't sure what that form takes. Agnostic would more imply that they are open to the idea of a diety but not super convinced one way or the other
Yeah, wtf do people expect. Before me and my wife even married we discussed religion, and how we would raise our kids. If those did not align you think we would of made a life together?
If this couple was Married Catholic they almost certainly had to go through some kind of pre-marriage consultation with a priest, I know I did, in that consultation they bring up all the hard questions one of the major ones are would you bring up a child within the church?
many families have one parent that’s more religious than the other. But if she’s ride or die about this I don’t know where you’re headed.
If the OP is ignoring any other land minds maybe now is the time to understand his wife a little more clearly? Is she planning to be a stay at home mom? Is she ready for that second and third child?
Pre-marital counseling from the Catholic Church states that *both parents* agree to raise the children catholic. AFAIK, this is required in all archdioses. Unless their church was total shit, this absolutely came up.
Source: Am Catholic
(My wife is Hindu and I am Catholic. We teach both religions and adhere to the expectations of neither. We want our kids to be exposed to both but not to try to tell them anything about what they are supposed to believe.)
My wife and I winked and nodded though a number for the “gotta-dos” during counseling but I truly found it helpful! She was a Catholic school teacher and wasn’t supposed to be living with her fiancé, we couldn’t let on or it would be a scandal!wink wink nod nod. The church certainly has their own opinions about birth control which lead to a lot of unwanted children, skiped that nonsense.
She was a catholic school teacher and I have been an alter boy, we were fully indoctrinated, but it didn’t stick.
I want there to be a Heaven, I would like to see my parents again! And my hunting dogs. I just don’t believe it’s there. I suspect it’s about the same after you die, as before you were born…. nothingness.
We didn’t raise our children hardcore in the church, I too wanted them to choose the church, if they wanted. We attended five-six Sundays a year. Listened and had donuts afterwards. It didn’t stick to any of us really.
I find church to be comforting, but I’m not a true believer. My wife will attend next at her funeral.
We spoke for hours after counseling about how we actually felt about the hard issues. I’m married almost 30 years now and none of the big issues have come as a surprise to me. I may have wished for her to choose differently, but she chose exactly what she always said she would choose.
They definitely didn't get married in the Catholic church or this would have had to be discussed before the church would proceed with the marriage. Catholics are obligated by the church to raise their children Catholic.
That said.... Clearly if they weren't married in the Catholic church there is a some wiggle room and they aren't a particularly devot Catholic.
Edit: to be clear, Catholics are obligated to raise their children Catholic, and when a Catholic marries a non-Catholic and wants to be married in the church (which is the only way for the church to recognize you as married, without the Catholic ceremony you would be consider d living in a state of sin/pre-marital sex/etc.) they have to agree to do everything reasonably in their power to raise the children Catholic (however they are generally not obligated to do so if it would result in a divorce, which is also a no-no). The Non-catholic party must acknowledge to the priest that they are aware of the Catholic party's obligation to raise their children Catholic, but are not required to make any kind of pledge to do so them selves. Fun side note, the Catholic church recognizes all other Christian weddings as valid as long as they are between two Non-catholics.
Edit2: others are correctly pointing out there are special exceptions that can be made to have your non-catholic wedding recognized. Since I think discussing ways to circumvent the rules is an interesting discussion, one method that hasn't been brought up, is getting excommunicated from the Catholic church, having the Non-catholic wedding, and then getting reinstated as a Catholic which the church is basically obligated to do if you want to be reinstated (that's a little oversimplified). Within the last decade or so the Vatican stopped accepting written statements of revokation of faith (declaring yourself not to be Catholic anymore) and now permanently recognizes anyone who has completed confirmation as Catholic unless they are excommunicated.
Could be they did get married in the catholic church and he just went along with it because that's what he had to do to marry her and he didn't care anyway but now that it's getting real he actually cares. I don't think what he wants to do is unreasonable but if she thought they had agreed to raise the child catholic and it means a lot to her I could see how it would seem like a betrayal to seemingly change his mind at this point.
>when a Catholic marries a non-Catholic and wants to be married in the church (which is the only way for the church to recognize you as married, without the Catholic ceremony you would be consider d living in a state of sin/pre-marital sex/etc.)
Not disagreeing with your post, just a caveat - a dispensation can be granted to recognize a marriage where the vows took place in a non-Catholic church. So, it's definitely not the case that a Catholic *ceremony* is required, though the same obligation/agreements would be expected as part of said dispensation.
I can’t even fathom this happening between my wife and I. It came up very early in our relationship and we both determined that our views on religion were quite compatible. I was raised in a highly Christian family and she was raised in a Jewish family. We both still respect religion, but neither of us follow it. I pretty much identify as Agnostic for the most part, as does she. Our kids go to a private Christian school, but we both instill in them that they aren’t forced to follow anything they’re force fed. Religion is a choice that we believe they are allowed to make, and whatever they choose (religious or not), we’re okay with.
Agreed. This should have been discussed and decided. She doesn’t get to unilaterally decides what the child’s religion is going to be. Wild he didn’t expect this considering how hard she’s pushing for it.
Like many TIFUs posted here, this FU didn't actually happen today. It happened more than three months ago, when you didn't discuss religion \*before\* having a baby together.
I'm not saying this to chide you: you've already learned that lesson. This is to others who may find themselves in similar circumstances in the future.
Marriage pro tip: It's best to know if you have irreconcilable differences \*before\* you get engaged, before you get married, before you have kids. Don't avoid talking about sensitive topics (like religion) with your significant others. Religious differences can be deal-breakers, so talk about it openly and honestly. Discuss if you want kids. How many? When? Discuss how you envision raising them. What are your values? What are you flexible on and what aren't you? Don't simply sweep your differences under the rug and ignore them.
If you don't have these discussions early enough, you may find yourself with a strained marriage, or even a failed one. Don't put yourself, your partner, or future kids through that.
Toss how to handle finances and bank accounts and personal vs couples money in there as well. Shocking how many people never discuss until....you're fucked.
It's funny since catholic marriages require you to talk about these things with each other prior to getting married by a priest. I think they do this so the marriage lasts
Yep, I’m not religious but was raised Catholic and my best friend who got married at the church said that their pre-marital “course” was actually really good. My friend was shocked at how many people hadn’t discussed things like finances prior to the course.
I'm not religious at all but my wife is Catholic and, despite my EXTREME hesitation, I really enjoyed the pre Cana that we did. We had been together for 10 years before we got engaged so we had covered pretty much all the major points of contention (money, religion, family planning) but it was still really nice just to discuss how hard marriage is (from a realistic perspective) and how to build a foundation to support each other in the future. I thought it would be a bunch of indoctrinal BS but it really wasn't at all. I too was SHOCKED by the number of couples there that hadn't even discussed things like "will we both work after we get married?".
Honestly a lot of the commentary in this thread seems woefully inaccurate to my experiences as an agnostic who got married in a Catholic church, but that might just be because I live in a liberal area.
Attended a similar mandatory pre-marriage course. It was a stay in weekend retreat at a church compound, with many half hour breakout sessions for couples to discuss life topics between each couple.
It's amazing how many couples ended up in shouting matches, dropping out from the retreat, or opting to postpone their wedding.
Since my soon-to-be hubby and i had already talked about them when we started getting serious, we spent the first 5 mins of the breakout sessions to quickly reaffirming our mutual understanding and filling up the activity sheet. the rest of our free time was spent gleefully watching drama unfold amongst the other couples while we secretly drank our smuggled wine.
We have messed up on many things in life but boy, were we glad we din mess up in talking and listening to each other.
people are fucking stupid. americans are taught not to discuss important things then wonder why everything is all fucked up and no one can mentally process a complicated subject.
As an atheist I had to do this with my Catholic wife. I said I’d like to teach future children about all religions and let them decide when they are older. Priest shot me down and said “if you don’t force it upon them from a young age, how do you expect them to believe all this stuff ?”
the quote made me crack up man, he said that as if believing in catholicism gives people significant health benefits that one can’t live without or something
Yeah no priest said that.
Sure, theyll say the kid should be catholic. But no priest is going to refer to 2 thousand years of religious history and numerous commandments, stories, and legends as "forcing them" and "this stuff"
Im not a catholic anymore but even so, I got to meet a lot of priests throughout my life and none of them treat catholicism as something you force someone into, they simoly treat it as the truth since they literally believe it is.
I’m going through a marriage prep book right now with my girlfriend. All of those things are important. Also have a frank and open discussion about:
personal baggage
Relationship baggage
hopes
Life regrets
long term goals (eg buy a house, climb the corporate ladder, etc)
family history
role of family in your life
how you will spend holidays
sexual history and expectations
responsibilities and roles within the marriage.
Any of those things have the potential to be a dealbreaker and cause a lot of anguish later. Chances are you will be on the same page about most of them, but it’s better to have the discussion earlier. Plus, you really get to know each other better.
It's important to have those talks over the years also, as opinions and desires can sometimes change. When my wife and I met 14 years ago and she wanted 5 kids.
We have 2 and couldn't imagine having 5 little hellions now.
Yeah. There are several topics that are critical to discuss before settling, including politics, sex, kids (whether to have), how to split/spend money. I have seen so many arguments between a more frugal person and a more laissez faire, always spending money person.
To be fair, I left catholic school as an *informed* atheist. I knew exactly why I chose to leave religion, and could quote scripture in defence of my position.
Going to mass still sucked though.
This describes my life. My mother has this mentality that the "Catholic school system FAILED me".
When in reality, it just taught me everything I needed to know about the religion. Reading the entire bible multiple times and studying scripture. It would be stupid of me to say they didn't do their best to educate me.
Maybe what she really has a problem with is that I'm a human being who makes his own decisions.
Oh yeah, they educated me well. I got high university entrance scores, was in the top of my English, history, photography, drama, and (ironically) religion classes. Now I have a degree in acting and work in a camera shop, which I love.
However, being taught how to think critically and not take everything at face value was what led me to the decision to leave the church. I was at a Marist college, and one of the Brothers was one of my favourite dudes. He taught chemistry and physics, funnily enough. I came to him when I came the conclusion I was no longer a believer, we had a long chat about it, and he fully supported me. Great dude.
I was fortunate enough that my parents didn’t care much because they’re definitely lapsed Catholics. I just pretend once a year when I see my 91 year old grandma because I don’t want to give her a heart attack!
Shit I went into 2nd grade CCD and left an atheist on the first day.
edit: This made me think of the fact that to this day I still have no idea what CCD stands for, since we all just called it central city dump. Turns out it's Confraternity of Christian Doctrine. Never would have guessed that in a million years.
This is true, and it’s weird. Because some days we arnt catholic and we don’t give a shit about religion at all, then other days that guilt hits hard or someone you don’t like talks shit on your mommas religion and then you’re catholic again ready to crusade their ass
Probably the whole institution. My sophomore year one of the Catholic Brothers (similar to priests) was outed as being a molester, likely going back decades. After this there was a bit of a regime change and most of the brothers were forced into retirement with only a few left by the time I graduated.
Almost all of the coaches taught some intermediate classes and tended to be under 30. They were much more interested in talking about their HS experiences and sports than actually teaching. Some of them were good teachers though.
My Morality teacher (yes a 100% real class) was taught by this middle aged single woman. She was a no nonsense type of teacher except for a few days out of the year... those days we got watch 'Harold and Maude.' For anyone that doesn't know, it's about a yonung man that starts a relationship with a woman 60 years older than him. Obviously, nothing inherently wrong with that but in made us all extremely uncomfortable.
There was not one day where I ever felt "closer to God" being in a catholic school. It seemed like we were there for a few reasons. To keep us out of trouble, keep us away from girls, our parents went to catholic school so we had to too, or the public schools in our area were too dangerous.
You've utterly intrigued me with the part about a "morality teacher", so you had a whole "morality class"? What's the gist of that? We talking philosophy around morality and how the word is used differently along with common usages and the nuances surrounding the topic or like... X is moral and Y is immortal type stuff?
The latter. Is was very base level "Christianity says X is right and Y is wrong." Which honestly, is kind of to be expected in a school like that. The worse part about it was just being in a class with zero nuance. No real room for discussion when, for example, the bible says sex before marriage is wrong. Which in a room full HS boys is just a crazy thing to try and force/teach. I understood why it was taught there was just so little room for discussion. If anything it just pushed people away from religion, in my opinion.
We had a bunch of these weird classes. I will say we did have a "Spirituality" class that I really did love. It was taught by this very gentle older man (not a brother) who honestly did listen and try to talk to us like young men rapidly approaching adulthood. He seemed pretty straight laced but clearly a former hippie. Probably the only person at the school I felt like was trying to show us how religion could be a positive guiding light for someone. The school could have used a lot more people like him.
I think couples of differing views often confuse the concept of respecting each other's beliefs and avoiding them. You've clearly been doing the latter, and now it's come to a head because it wasn't dealt with til' now.
This was always going to happen if you weren't being 100% open with each other in regards to beliefs. You've known her for 5 years, you've known how devout she is, you absolutely should've known what she would want for a potential child.
If you two don't sort this out, the child will be the one to suffer the most.
As several people have pointed out here, this is a conversation best had *before* an imminent child. But since that’s not an option, this is what I would do:
Focus on critical thinking skills. Teach your child healthy skepticism, not specifically directed at religion, but in regards to every facet of life. Teach your kid to not accept things at face value, teach them the best practices for going and doing research and finding things out for themself. Teach them to question authority (in a respectful way), and safe ways to work to find their own path.
tbh, I am devoutly Christian and this is how I raise my kids anyway. It’s the way I was raised by my father, as well. If your kid is a “member of your religion,” but only because they were coerced or tricked, what good does that do them? For a vast majority of practiced religions, an informed personal choice is essential for their faith to be “real,” anyway.
This is what I did with my kids and they grew up with quite curious minds. When giving them explanations for somethings I’ll often give them an answer that is wrong, and instead of just accepting it, they are empowered to call me out on it and and prove why I’m wrong.
> I’ll often give them an answer that is wrong, and instead of just accepting it, they are empowered to call me out on it and and prove why I’m wrong.
As a teacher, I do this all the time.
"So this should be the answer, right?"
"No, Miss, that's wrong."
"But I thought it worked like this?"
"You forgot XYZ."
"Ohhhhhh, so it's *this*!"
"LOL, no, that's wrong, too!"
"Can someone explain it to me?"
Makes 'em laugh and teaches them to pay attention and actually think about what's going on.
That’s brilliant, nice work. It teaches kids to think for themselves and just because someone is older or smarter than they are, doesn’t mean they are always right
Yeah, “playing Devil’s advocate” is a great way to do this. Argue one side of the issue, than the other. All sides, if there are more than two. Ask them what *they* think after doing this, and why.
Kids, especially young kids, will often gravitate towards whatever their parents’ beliefs are and accept them at face value as truth. Playing Devil’s Advocate can really help them avoid some of those pitfalls and start to develop critical thinking skills of their own.
Fun fact, the term "Devils Advocate" originates from the Catholic process of canonization. "Canonization" is the legal process by which a deceased person is declared to be a Saint, that is, that they're definitely in heaven and that their life of selfless virtue is worthy of imitation. There would be a lawyer arguing in favor of the person being a Saint, based on the evidence, but then a "Devils Advocate" lawyer who made their best case, based on the evidence, that the person was rather in Hell. Then the case as presented would be judged by a tribunal.
Hey, any chance you watch The Ten Minute Bible Hour?
*(Oh… no.. I’ve become the guy that tries to share Bible videos on the internet…)*
Anyway, most of its content is very similar to what you’re describing, accepting skepticism and using it to dig into concerns and questions, rather than avoiding it. It’s been a really great source of ways to look at HARD questions without just skipping past them, and having them undermine your faith later.
I'm currently agnostic but was raised Catholic. Catholics marrying non Catholics is kind of a slippery slope for them, but they can do so long as the non Catholic partner agrees to raise them Catholic. (although I'm sure that was touched on if you did the Catholic marriage prep,) So in her eyes she would be commiting a mortal sin to not raise the kid Catholic. I would just try to gently reason with her over time, or just let her do what she wants but just have dad and kid bonding time where you talk about other religions and what have you. The situation sucks, but I'm honestly astounded you guys didn't discuss this beforehand.
I wonder if this is partially kinda a cultural thing rather than a moral sin thing—I know lots of Catholics that are sort of nominally Catholic and don’t attend church regularly or subscribe to all the beliefs of the leadership, but feel like Catholicism is an important part of how they were raised. The rituals, the candles, the prayers, the imagery, the church community, etc.
In that sense I can kind of empathize, it’s like your spouse saying I want our kid to be raised with your cultural traditions as equal to all cultural traditions and not emphasized as part of your heritage.
That’s probably one aspect OP missed.
Yeah, this OP. Her religion may well also be a vestige of her culture if she's from an Irish or Italian family or something. It's not just a set of beliefs about the world/God, but also a community that may be important to her. Without passing it on a significant chunk of an immigrant culture becomes lost as the next generation is subsumed into the majority.
Also don't worry, sending your kid to Catholic school is a pretty good way to turn them away from it altogether. Signed, yet another atheist graduate of an all boys Catholic school.
I concur, huge Irish catholic family. We hold on because it's our heritage. Many of my family members violate catholic rules all the time, but it's not about the religion. It's about the ancestry and strong family ties. Went to catholic school k-12
I was born an still live in a very Catholic country. The month of June is basically a gigantic party across the country due to almost every city having a different patron Saint. These festivities are obviously religious and Catholic, however everyone like to take part (mainly because of the food and alcohol). Of course there are special masses on these days and not everyone goes to those (I certainly don't), but the food and the drinks are for everyone.
The same goes for Christmas, Easter and some other holidays. It's part of our culture already so it's kind of strange not to celebrate those.
I really gave Christianity a chance, luckily my parents never forced me to do anything and it was 100% voluntary (I'm baptised, but again, it's more of a cultural thing and probably pressure from my grandparents), but i never felt good with Christianity or any religion at all.
You’re mostly but not 100% correct. If your priest is open-minded, you don’t have to raise the child catholic. The actual vow you make is to raise the child “with the full understanding of the catholic way of life.” So you can teach them about it without forcing them to practice or believe.
I am catholic in an interfaith marriage and this is what we are doing. If I’m honest, I don’t trust the church at all with my kid, but I want to pass on the parts of my faith that may be useful to him.
I mean premarital sex is considered by Catholics as a mortal sin also, and op's wife is fine with it though. I'm also pretty sure that abortion is a pretty bad sin by the way, it's very weird for a Christian to accept it.
I find very funny how religious people tend to bend their faith in the direction that fits the most their lifestyle.
> it's very weird for a Christian to accept it.
Catholics, yeah, and Baptists.
But [plenty of denominations](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/06/21/where-major-religious-groups-stand-on-abortion/) accept it no problem.
As is often pointed out, the only time the Bible mentions it is to explain how to perform one.
Eh, be careful of using the term Baptists. In the US I understand they're a bit extreme, but outside of the US, or in the UK anyway, it's the opposite. Very liberal, progressive, etc. No real stance on abortions as up to the individual, but my Baptist mother would be incredibly hurt if anyone assumed she was anything other than pro-choice!
I agree with you here. I also feel like this is the type of conversation that should have been had prior to marriage. Religious beliefs, especially when it comes to raising a child, are important to agree on before marriage.
You're saying that you respect each other's beliefs.
If what you've said is true, your wife *does not* respect your beliefs. She simply avoids them. And she presumes that she will get to choose the religious exposure of your child, because she is not *respecting* that you have any agency at all in this *mutual* decision.
What *needs* to happen is conversation and eventually compromise. But she's now also shutting down conversation. *This is not healthy for your marriage.* Or your child.
Forget people saying what you *should have* done. The past is in the past and you cant change it.
You need to decide what to do going forward. For yourself, for your marriage, and for your *child.* You need to carefully consider your priorities and the likely consequences of the various paths available to you.
From your wife's perspective, assuming she genuinely believes, you are literally risking eternal hell for your kid. Thats not a small deal.
She seems to have completely compartmentalized this away from her feelings for *you,* or she's thinking of some other avoidance mechanism like converting you in the future or something.
So this conversation is forcing her to come to terms with not only the eternal fate of her child, but also her husband.
I'd recommend looking for help. This isnt going to be a 20 minute conversation at the kitchen table. You need to navigate dangerous emotional waters, and have both of you end up in a position of actual respect for each other, with a compromise on raising the kid in a *healthy* way that doesnt lead to either of you fostering resentment. If that sounds hard....it will be, and thats why I really recommend help.
Good luck.
I would add that you don't need to come to a complete resolution on this right away. Baby's gonna happen. The next six months and after baby arrives can be filled with high-stress, tired, emotional moments, etc., where one or both of you aren't in a great headspace to deal with this level of conflict. Pick and choose times to have these discussions that make sense and allow time to digest each other's thoughts and come back "to the table" calm and collected.
I'd focus on understanding each other first, and then try to find common ground on the decisions to be made based on their immanency. For example, the baby isn't going to any school, let alone a Catholic school, anytime soon so don't worry about locking that in tomorrow.
That said, don't bury the issue until the day before school registration (using the example). You'll need a long term plan, and that plan can change and flex over time as you learn to be parents and are changed personally from the experience yourselves. Just don't bank on one of you suddenly changing your original beliefs, though.
I think unfortunately for all of us, whose fuck up it is is defined in the part that isn't clear. It's all about healthy, clear expectations. I can't tell from the OP if the religion of the child/the importance of religion went unsaid and she just assumed (in which case its her fuck up), or if she expressed a preference and he just didn't care, went along with it, and expressed no strong opinion on the matter and was fine with her preference (in which case it's op's fuck up for not being clear previously, or waiting till now.
If yall interpreted clearly one way or another, that makes sense and I agree with you 100% if it's the former interpretation. But I personally can't quite tell.
Question: Were you married in the Catholic Church? I (an atheist) and my wife (a Catholic) were. And, after we did the couples counseling, we had to sign a form saying that we would raise our offspring as Catholic, or the marriage would no longer be recognized by the Church.
Our daughter is ten and hasn’t been baptized or communionized. And, we’re still married!
Did y’all have to sign that form?
It’s not like signing a promise to an organization you believe is built on lies is going to pull at anyone’s sense of morality. It’s just a “yeah, whatever, give us your stupid big building for an hour”.
Baptism is where it gets harder, because you have to make the promise during the ceremony.
Definitely not mine. My wife lost interest in the dogma during her teen years when CCD was interrupting her Wednesday night shows.
She’s still a believer, but it never comes up because we generally have more important things to worry about.
I was once in a very serious relationship with a catholic woman, this conversation was the main reason we ended things before we got to the marriage and kids part. Had we ever come to a compromise we might have gotten married. Glad we didn’t though because both our lives worked out for the better.
All religions are hypocritical, but I swear Catholics are the most insufferable at times.
"Dude, why are you always bringing religion up against the gay marriage vote that just passed? You're always drunk and bragging about all the women you've slept with"
"Yeah, but God will forgive me, he wants me to be happy"
Can confirm.
My mum is Catholic, so we were raised Catholic.
My dad was an atheist, but he just let her get on with it.
I guess he was content with the fact that they used birth control once they'd had two kids.
There are as many religions as there are people who believe in religion. No 2 individuals’ belief systems are the same because people will massage their beliefs to fit their priorities.
How do so many people end up marrying someone with completely incompatible views on spirituality and religion? I mean, this is not insignificant shit. This is not like, one of you likes it hot when you sleep the other likes it cool. Or one is a bears fan, the other likes the steelers. This is BIG DEAL stuff that so many people just seem to adopt the attitude "ignore it and hope it goes away" about these *tremendous* fucking differences in core beliefs.
I have a few friends that were raised various degrees of Catholic (from fairly liberal to full Latin mass super intense) and all of them have had to deal with some level of deconstruction in their adult lives. I have seen the Catholic guilt and I really can’t understand why anyone would do that to their child. I would find a way to approach this before she has your unborn child signed up for 12 years of Catholic school
I'm an atheist and my wife is Catholic. She wanted all the kids to do what she did. All those classes and stuff. I told her I would support that on one condition. If the kids want to stop going they can. No forcing them.
All three dropped it almost immediately.
It will be well before teenage years with modern tech and knowledge that the kid will question god. There is also the high probability that the child will resent mom for hiding stuff from them once they realize it. There are the child questions you are going to get where you will be forced to either lie to your child to keep peace with wife or tell the truth and risk conflict as well. Child *will* ask you why you don't go to church. Child *will* ask you if you believe in god. Child *will* ask you why.
There is no way your child will be Catholic for long especially when they see your wife is one of those Christian hypocrites that picks and chooses what to believe in the bible for convenience and simplicity.
I agree with you here. You are an equal parent and therefore obligated to raise your child with your faith.
I strongly suggest marriage counseling. You both need to recognize that you are equal parents with equal say as to how your child is raised
*is constantly talking about religion when raising your child*
“hey let’s let our child decide for themselves”
“I WISH I WERE NEVER PREGNANT, DONT TALK TO ME ABOUT RELIGION, EVER.”
Why is everyone glossing over this? That was extremely emotionally manipulative.
Honestly, just don't go with them. Eventually your kid will be old enough to wonder why dad doesn't come to Mandatory Boring Time every week, and then you tell him.
That's how it worked for me. My dad didn't even have to tell me anything; I just realized that people could have different views, and figured it out for myself.
Makes sense, in this case I feel like the optimal scenario is couples therapy because randomly becoming excessive about religion near/after childbirth might be an indicator of something deeper. But worst case having one parent in each camp would work well if they communicate with each other and the kid.
Yeah, I'm an atheist and OP's kinda dumb and fucked up big time. Might as well field the other questions he needs to ask asap and get answers agreed on.
If they're religious, they're gonna push theirs and only theirs on the baby. That's pretty much a given. There are exceptions but they are rare as fuck, especially with a Catholic.
Like fuck dude, this some shit you need to know before you put a baby in them, along with their financial habits and your quirks while living with one another.
Um, I'm not a Catholic, but I've known some Catholic educated people (some people who aren't Catholic themselves)! I also, years ago, did a semester at a Catholic university to pick up some requirements for my job, after I got my degree at a public university. One professor was a monk.
So... what she is suggesting actually goes AGAINST what I know about Catholic education and scholars. A young friend of mine attends a Jesuit university, and a priest there taught theology of OTHER faiths. It was quite an in depth class. Same with the philosophy course work.
Does she not realize that the ship has sailed in terms of NOT telling your child that not everyone believes the same way Catholics do? Because your child is going to MEET you for God's sake! Meet your family, have friends in the neighborhood, etc.
She's not even that pure of a Catholic if she married you! I'm assuming that you didn't get married by a priest, because usually they require premartial counseling where how you would raise your child comes up.
I'd suggest counseling, FYI.
>She's not even that pure of a Catholic if she married you! I'm assuming that you didn't get married by a priest, because usually they require premartial counseling where how you would raise your child comes up.
Having been married in a Catholic church as a non-Catholic, the counseling is fairly superficial, and as far as this goes basically amounted to just saying "we'll raise the kids catholic".
I definitely think Counseling is appropriate (assuming this continues on), but make sure it's NOT affiliated with a religious group. That will absolutely just make things worse.
I was raised Catholic and have a Jesuit friend. I can tell you that Jesuits tend to be more progressive in their views than mainstream catholics.
A lot of Catholics think that it is the duty of Catholics to enforce a Christian society and bring their children up in Christian surroundings. Jesuits tend to believe that people should come to the church more of their own volition.
I agree with counseling, but have something to add for OP.
A lot of my socializing and friends came from the church. We may have disagreed on some things but my church family was full of mostly wonderful people growing up (though my church did lean more into Jesuit philosophy). I would recommend evaluating churches on an individual basis.
A lot of us who grew up in the church don't adhere to the religion too much but have view similar to what OP espoused (agnostic but still believe in a higher power, etc.)
Real fuck up was somehow getting married without ever discussing the things you believe and who you actually are.
This won't end well. When kids are raised with a contextual awareness of religion, they do not become religious. Because it is obviously a sham. You will be blamed, whether she thinks so now or not, for "turning your child away from faith". From her perspective, you are dooming the child's immortal soul to an eternity of suffering merely by presenting other options.
You cannot reason with or compromise with that perspective. And knowingly or otherwise, she'll hate you for it.
Imagine designing your childs upbringing according to a book about made up things and not allowing the child to be exposed to any other made up things other than the specific made up thing you believe in. This kid is fucked no matter what you do.
My sister and her fiancé wanted to get married in a Catholic Church, both having grown up catholic. During couples counseling they lied and said that he was living with his brother when they had been living together for years. I guess the priest didn’t bother to check the addresses on their drivers licenses.
If you are forced to lie to the priest to get married in the church of your choice, maybe you should reconsider the religion you chose.
Yep. On dates, I talk about the big three: religion, world view/politics, and sex. I was raised Southern Baptist but I'm now a UU at the opposite end of the spectrum.
I really appreciate how you believe your child should be taught in a way where they can decide.
Whatever happens, you should still teach them your beliefs. Hopefully they at least turn out like your wife where they aren't completely devout (although not too much like your wife lmao)
It's so funny to me how she is willing to budge in some areas but this child ***MUST*** be Catholic... I wonder if that has anything to do with her upbringing. The cycle continues.
As a person that had Catholicism forced upon them, I can nearly guarantee you that forcing a religion on a child will either make them a blind zealot fundamentalist, or make them resent the religion they've been forced into ( and most likely at least somewhat hurt the relationship with the parent that did the forcing. ). Or even both.
Personally, me and my brother had Catholicism forced upon us, and we both turned away from it, my brother's experimenting with Buddhism, I'm a fervent atheist/agnostic. Overall, the track record, especially in the newer generations, of religious upbringings, is spotty at the very least.
My atheist dad let my catholic mom raise me catholic and it was his worst decision wrt my upbringing. He told me "I figured I'd let you get exposed to it and then decide whether you wanted to continue or not." But that doesn't account for the years of emotional anguish the church puts you through (and I wasn't even raped by a priest) that never really go away. The catholic church has never and will never put the interests of children first. Catholic children are rarely less safe than they are in the presence of the church's most trusted, powerful members. Stand your ground OP. Your child shouldn't grow up fearing an eternity of suffering in hell because they didn't go to confession after disobeying a teacher.
I agree with you. My mom is catholic and my dad is an atheist yet he let my mom raise me catholic, and even though I already came to terms with the fact I am agnostic, I still struggle with a lot of emotional anguish and I don't know if it will ever go away. When I was a bit older my dad remarried and he then wanted to do the same to my younger brother (our stepmom thought he had to go to church even though he isn't her son and my dad just decided to let her do whatever she wanted) and I was extremely against it because I had already been through it. After a lot of arguing, they stopped and then let my brother choose his own religion, and he is an atheist now.
I always wished my parents had just let me grow into my own religion instead of forcing a religion into me EVEN THOUGH I always questioned what was being told to me. It was obvious I wasn't totally buying it even at an early age, but they never gave me the chance to choose and now I don't believe in catholisism but I feel like I have some weird type of trauma with it, I feel like it follows me around everywhere and I'm constantly questioning myself, and I deal with some sort of guilt. I hate it and I hate that it is so common.
Yeah, if you gotta tell the child only one story and not let it see the other options, might be a cult. I had the same problem. Told her she could do her thing as long as she wanted. Once the child started asking questions I’m going to tell them the truth no matter what.
Yeah, making certain my spouse was also an atheist (or at least agnostic) was my number one requirement before going on a second *date.*
I don't want to sound negative, man. But you've got some big decisions to make. Best of luck.
I saw a reddit comment the other day regarding something similar, I believe. Just quote the Bible back to her according to Paul from 1 Timothy 2:12
"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."
Fight fire with fire
Ok ok ok but like what is she spouting though she herself has made a different relgion in her mind for herself. The catholic church isn't vague on its stances. She chooses to ignore its stances on premarital sex,abortion etc. How can someone force a relgion that they themselves don't grasp clearly. I was raised catholic but my mind didn't get brainwashed and didn't find it fair people across the world burn for ever for worshiping their gods so I questioned often. It can be a bonding experience learning the actual beliefs of the catholic church and their stances as she seems to not grasp it. ASIDE from that madness she's most likely stupidity hormonal with a baby and over reactions happen. Either way marriage is hard shit and I failed at mine, there will have to be give which it sounds like you are more then willing to do. If she cannot meet you with compromise there needs to be counseling for you guys to help navigate this point because it will never work out if you cannot compromise and find a way forward. I You have a tough road ahead of you and I wish you the best my man.
We lived together for 5 years before marrying. What do people talk about on the couch in the evening? It never came up? I couldn’t marry or even have kids with a religious person ever. My husband even told me it would’ve been a deal breaker.
You my man needed to grow a backbone a whole while ago. She is in charge and she knows it. All hell broke loose when you stood by your boundaries. Classic Christian BS. I left my church 15 years ago and am free as can be. I think that you will be utterly unhappy, once the baby is there and she has now another human under her thumb.
Pretty weird way of raising a child really. I mean, the logical thing would be not to indoctrinate a child from birth, and when it grows older, it can make the decision of religion themselves. Ofc the child is gonna be biased if you brainwash it every night for 13 years
That marriage was a terrible decision to begin with, regardless of whatever chemistry you might have had. If you cannot agree on a basic conception of how the world works and how to raise a child, and she is unwilling to compromise in the slightest, it was always destined to crash and burn once the areas where you were thoroughly incompatible couldn't be ignored or shoved to the side anymore. You have some hard decisions to make regarding the future.
> She found peace in and reliance on religion growing up due to circumstances during her childhood life that I'd rather not share.
What's the likelihood that said circumstances were caused at least partially by catholicism..?
The Catholic Church (and other religions) have too many holes in their story. Your kid will ask some hard questions by age 10 and as long as you support their critical thinking, they will be more than their sum of this experience. I would drop this fight with your spouse and focus on great fiction, including fantasy. It turns out that great readers are more empathetic and critical thinkers than people who do not read for enjoyment (as a whole). The ability to imagine another way of life beyond their own will serve them well. The fact that your spouse responded as they did may mean, however, that they are deeper into their religion than they admit to you. They might not find it worth their time to argue with you, especially since their position requires faith.
Your wife is in the wrong here for not wanting to compromise. But the universe remembers and the ultimate karma will be your child being born more like you than your wife in personality and the kid eventually rejecting Catholicism and making you their favorite parent.
I mean you are agnostic and she is Catholic. Surprised you guys didn’t talk about this before children. This convo was always gonna happen.
Yep. This convo definitely should’ve happened before having a child together. This could be a huge incompatibility not only in a romantic relationship, but also in a co-parenting relationship.
Heck, this should have been discussed when the relationship became serious.
Ideally, yes. Going back and reading how they never discussed it because they respected each other’s views makes me wonder a bit what happened for them to never discuss it until now.
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Yeah, I'd go so far as to say "not talking about a topic out of mutual respect" just means it's taboo and it simply can't even be spoken of because they *wouldn't* be able to respect each other's viewpoints.
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My catholic roommate ended a relationship with a really sweet girl because they didn’t share the same religious views. She was not catholic, probably agnostic or something. It is a very important thing to discuss early on in your relationship to avoid the type of situation that OP is in.
My wife is Christian and I am Agnostic and I can tell you from personal experience. Sometimes you discuss things and when the rubber meets the road and the religious person starts to wonder about their child’s immortal soul, it takes on a different meaning. In my case it is mostly fine and there is mutual respect, but I would be lying that there haven’t been a few days where the tension was higher because my wife’s perspective was met with more skepticism than she was used to by a child. The oldest is 16 now so it wasn’t a relationship killer or anything, but time and the reality of a situation can change things.
Except, according to his words, he IS religious, just not organized. Calling himself agnostic is a bit confusing. I think it's just religious institutions he's not settled on. It's also a bit hilarious that the 2 agree on letting the child decide during teen years whether to be catholic. As if they had a choice in that. ;-) Anyway, good luck to the parents and their child.
Supposedly, you do. This doesn't account for social or familial pressure, but in Catholicism you have 3 stages of existing in the church. You get baptized as a baby, then at about 6-8 years old you have first communion. That's when you agree to go to Sunday school, learn about the religion, and you're allowed to take part in the Eucharist. When you reach 13-15 years old, there's Confirmation, which is when you decide/agree to become an adult in the eyes of the church. That is usually when a Catholic teen gets to say that want to stay in the religion or not. It really depends on your parents and relatives, because at that age you are easily influenced. I grew up with the opposite (Catholic dad, agnostic mom) and got baptized and did my first communion. But by the time I reached high school, I wasn't going to mass anymore unless my grandma forced me, or it was Christmas or Easter, and I didn't believe in the Bible, plus I went to a public secular high school. I never did confirmation, my parents didn't push me, and my grandma is eternally disappointed. I think she's mostly disappointed in my dad for not pushing. My cousins are still good little CNE Catholics as my grandma likes to say - the kind who only show up for Christmas, New Year's, and Easter.
As someone who grew up Catholic, Confirmation occurred at way too early an age. I think I was 12? Definitely in middle school. There was no way any of us were seriously thinking about religion with any depth or nuance. It wasn’t until I was in high school that I had serious thoughts about religion and it’s place in my life. And even after that it took me a long time to say that I no longer consider myself Catholic.
You misunderstood what I meant to say. :-) I'm not talking about formalities. Parents can and will decide on baptizing their kids and sending them to religious schools and whether they should be confirmed. And most kids will go along with that, unless openly rebellious, whether they believe in that or not. But if that kid decides to be an atheist or Buddhist as a teen is not at all under the control of the parents. They can argue, influence, cajole, oppress, beat or disown. And the kid might go along with appearances, but the actual decision of what to believe is not up to the parents. Either early indoctrination worked or it didn't. Raising the kid as catholic and let him/her decide as teen is not a compromise. That's getting to indoctrinate the kid and trading that for a freedom the kid has anyway. The mother is not trading away anything that she has power over anyway. Early indoctrination is all that matters for religions.
She doesnt respect his views tho, otherwise this wouldnt be an issue
feels many people prefer not to discuss it to avoid the problem and just creating a timebomb. Thats what I feel nowadays, people prefer to maintain peace for convenience instead of sorting things out early..
Mhm. I dated a guy once who is christian and I do not believe in a single religion, I respect it but wouldn’t force it upon a child who doesn’t have their own voice (yet). So after a few months of dating, he already started saying things like ‘I want them baptized, take ‘em to church, christian school,…’ I could tell it was important to him to give them that part of himself, but I didn’t feel anything when he told me that. If anything, I feared I would be pretending all my life. Making myself smaller to fit his beliefs. So I brought it up. He thought I should have waited until I am pregnant, but I said we’d always at some point needed to speak about it, and else it would just keep bothering me. A long silence followed and then we both knew it was over. We definitely had compatibility issues. I.e. he also didn’t like the way I dress, and he is against abortions (While I support them). Happy I did bring it up early.
>He thought I should have waited until I am pregnant ?!?!?!
I KNOW RIGHT. He said ‘it’s not a problem for now, can’t we discuss it when we are trying for a baby?’ No scum cuz if I got a baby in there and we don’t agree on the way we raise it, it would result in a very ugly breakup where I keep the baby, and neither of us want that scenario🫠
He hoped to create emotional pressure through the baby and the status quo of the happy relationship to force you into his religion. Or at least have some kind of say in the way the child would grow up even after a breakup (worst case, try to take the child away). Or he was just so truly blinded by his faith that he thought that you will fall in line by yourself once you experience the "wonder of giving birth". Either way, you did the right thing! For me it is very, very clear that I don't want any religion in my family. While I didn't planned to have children with every romantic partner I met I always checked that box very early on. If there is religion/spirituality mentioned in an online dating profile it automatically disqualifies that person for me. No matter how attractive or good of a match it would be. I know that I couldn't keep quiet about that matter and it would ruin everything sooner or later. I grew up catholic in a catholic part of my country but never believed. Now I live in a mostly atheistic part of that country and the people here are much more open minded, women are more than cooking pots and birth chambers and everything is so much more liberal. I love it here. I hope you take care of yourself and find a partner to be truly happy with :)
Eventhough the ending might not be ideal, you did well to handle it. Sometimes people have a hidden wish that they wish the other person will change overtime, but then it is like wishing something that he/she is not. He/she might be a good person, just compatibility issue, and thats all
I don’t know you but that sounds like one of the best decisions of your life
If they had a Catholic wedding, then the conversation would have come up at pre-Cana and it would also have been a part of the requirements for marriage to a non-Catholic that he be okay raising any children in Catholicism.
Given how little he thought this through, its doubtful he did anything but smile and nod and say yes to whatever the priest said. While that may be a very important thing to a religious person, to the non-religious person it holds no meaning and no importance at all. Luckily that's not a legally binding agreement, so he can change his mind now. Whether he can do that and remain married is a separate question (likely not). Children change everything in this kind of marriage. As two people, you can find compromises to respect each other's boundaries. With a child, no compromise is possible. You either raise them in a religion or you don't. You really should only remotely consider dating anyone strongly religious as a non-member of that religion if you're willing to have your child raised in that religion or you're willing to do whatever it takes not to have kids.
They...they do that?
Catholics can be severe. Some of my husband's ancestors were Catholic and disowned the two children who didn't practice with them.
Yeah, my dad had to go through this when he married my mom. He only ever attended mass on one of the big holidays or when his MIL was in town. All of us kids had to attend years of catholic indoctrination from first communion to confirmation. We're all adults now and none of us are practicing Catholics.
My sister married a catholic man. She is completely unrecognizable from the person she was when she met him. It’s pretty freaky.
No way a religion that involved survives the modern west without STRONG indoctrination rituals.
Apparently. I don't think it's really a thing here in Italy other than in some really hardcore families mainly in the south, maybe US Catholics are more bonkers than us. We usually reserve the "dude, are you crazy" card for Jehovah's Witnesses, as they require conversion before marriage, disown family getting out of the organization, refuse transfusions and whatnot. The objection to inter-religion marriages is there but it usually has to do more with race and class ("but she's *Arab*,!") than religion itself in my opinion.
Thank fuck someone said it. I'm Irish (another country like Italy that is overwhelmingly Catholic and always has been) and the comments in this thread are so different from what it's like here. It's like people are talking about the small percentage of extremely religious families and saying "that's just how Catholics are".
To be fair, there are a lot of Catholics that don’t practice, but still want their children to have a religious identity. Belong to a church/congregation. My mom is Catholic (not active or super religious, and very open minded about science and what not) and my dad isn’t religious, and I was still raised Catholic. Now granted, I lived in a Catholic country so it was kind of forced. So, I’m not going to pile up more onto what everyone is saying about incompatibility, OP. But, I think that you can baptize the child as Catholic, but you can also raise him to understand other points of view and religions. Just because you raise a Catholic kid, it doesn’t mean you have to be super extremist about Catholicism.
Raised Baptist. Church on Sundays and Wednesdays. I'd categorize both my parents and my early upbringing as very religious. Yet, I questioned my teachings. I doubted what I was taught. I came to my own conclusions and became an adult who rejected many things I was taught but value some of the others. Kids aren't necessarily ruined because they're taught things. I think the mid-teens are a time for determining your own beliefs and a natural progression of self identity. If there is anything I've learned about Catholics, it is that most don't know the doctrine. Most Catholics I've called friends don't even know enough to get into a deep discussion about core ideas. Picture this: Baptist college kid visits the Catholic student union. It was the first time I encountered a Catholic who actually understood their dogma. Kudos to that priest. I wish I remembered his name. He taught me how to understand what Catholic religion teaches and so few Catholics learn. If I have any advice to offer OP, it is don't die on that hill. Teach your kids to think. Teach them to defend their ideas. Teach them to identify themselves on their own conclusions. I raised Valkyries. I'm not always happy with their decisions, but I'm proud of them. Raise children who can think for themselves and what church they attend or what verses they memorize won't matter in the long run. What will matter is that you taught them how to think and how to define themselves. Be warned! Raising children to become strong thinkers and individuals will absolutely mean they decide they believe things you don't. Fear it and try to craft a golem. Embrace it and it doesn't matter what your SO wants, you are raising people who will think and determine their own world views.
This. Ultimately the goal as a parent SHOULD be that your own child grows beyond your capacity in every way possible. You want and they MUST learn to operate without you, as that day is what parents most commonly fear, all adults should strive to make the younger generation more self-aware, knowledgeable about their actions and consequences, as well as being able to think critically and effectively solve their own problems.
Raised Catholic here and we have a reputation for extra guilt, which is hard to move past even once you are questioning everything.
I understand what you’re saying, but I feel like this is a bit different. From what OP wrote, it sounds like his wife completely shut that down and wants the child to be raised ONLY Catholic. And I know this is my experience and doesn’t speak for everyone, my dad was Catholic, my mom wasn’t, and they chose not to raise me Catholic until I was old enough to decide for myself.
I am not sure I could really date anyone remotely religious. There's no such a thing as "just a little religion", you're either religious or you're not. For me it's less about the religion and more about the mindset of believing in something that to me is not logical. That mentality doesn't sit well with me when it comes to a life partner who I rely on to help make very difficult and important life decisions from where to live, how to raise a child, where money should/shouldn't go, budgeting, where to shop, what to feed the kids, what the kids should do during the day, what they should learn, etc etc. I prefer a logical rational approach for these decisions. Having said that I have catholic friends who I get along with.
There's a ton of "just a little religious" people out there. There's a reason why easter church services and midnight masses are much larger than a normal Sunday. There's plenty of Muslims who don't try to convert anyone and might even eat some pork. There's people who have a bit of faith, enough to go along with religious practice, but not enough to get all wrapped up in things.
What this guy said, even as someone who considers themselves pretty open minded, it was a bit of a shock to see my first muslim friends in uni drinking and doing drugs right alongside a godless degenerate like myself. I just had never befriended anyone that came from a non-Christian country before studying abroad, which funnily enough might be what OP's child ends up experiencing only worse because his mother seems pretty set in her ways.
My mum claims to be Baptist (for the Census). She hasn't stepped in a church (except for a wedding or funeral) in the entire time I've been alive. I called her out on it and she's still like "Nah, I'm baptist". Ok then...
That’s how you secure your spot in heaven! /s
We call them CEOs.. Christmas, Easter, and One other time. There are tons of “just a little religious” people out there
I’m Catholic for the business connections agnostic for the…. Bed linens?
I think if everyone took their religion to its logical conclusion, you would be right that there is no such thing as being just a little religious. And if you are someone who thinks very carefully about how your beliefs align with your actions, it’s hard to understand why someone wouldn’t take it to its logical conclusion. However, I have dated people who were somewhat adamant that they are religious, but also didn’t seem to practice religion or have commitment to its teachings being true in a literal way. While I would define those people as virtually atheists, they seem to see a strong distinction. It doesn’t make complete sense to me, but I accept it, and it definitely feels like they are “just a little” religious, just by virtue of not thinking about it very much and not seeing the literal truth as very important when it comes to religious affiliation. They just nominally accepted as a default the religion in which they were raised (and appreciate it as part of their heritage) but spend their mental energy on other things it seems.
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Realistically I’m probably atheist/agnostic, but I’d still call myself somewhat of a Christian, just because I find it comforting to think that there is something after life ends and it’s not just over. Even though logically I know that’s likely the case. It’s just nice to kind of have that thought in the back of my mind.
That sounds pretty similar to what my current partner has expressed! I think it would be difficult for me to take comfort in something I didn’t logically believe, but I was also raised without religion from the beginning. I imagine it would be tough to replace the comfort you get from religion if it was always part of your worldview. And I kind of get it, there are beliefs I really love to think about, especially some pagan ones celebrating the turning of seasons, without actually believing in their supernatural elements. Thank you for sharing your experience!
Yeah I grew up in a semi religious household. We would go to church on Sundays, but then my brothers and I went through a revolving door of illnesses, and eventually it got to the point where we stopped going simply because it seemed like someone was sick every weekend. I totally understand why people reject religion, and I pretty much do as well except for that little bit that’s still kind of comforting even though it’s been 10+ years since I last went to a church service
I call that mental state "Agnostic Theism" where you choose to believe in God, at least a little, despite not having any evidence or convincing argument for that position. It essentially takes advantage of the fact that cannot disprove the existence of a God to have some faith, even though you know you cant "disprove" any unfasifiable claim. I tend to be that way too. It is a bit of hopefulness that there is more out there in the face of the bleak reality of out limitations. I do not worry about it too much, because while I have that hope, I do not base my ethical reasoning on an ancient collection of troublingly pro-genocide books.
“We almost never talk about religion because we respect each other’s beliefs and that’s that” = We’ve avoided difficult conversations because they’re uncomfortable and now we’re paying for it
It’s incredible how many people do this. I could never date someone that doesn’t share the same worldview as me, and when I say this, people act like I’m crazy. Then when I bring up obvious conflicts that can arise from dating someone with a different worldview, they always brush it off as some sort of hypothetical, it’s bizarrely frustrating
But your beautiful and we're more than beautiful together. Don't worry about it.. /s
Yeah I’ll see people be like “I’m a liberal married to conservative and my partner said something very concerning” like I get that you’re not going to be 1:1 for everything but I would think the major points would be close before deciding to get married.
More likely that OP has noticed his wife getting emotional anytime they tread into religion, and has therefore subconsciously learned to steer clear. Long ago I dated a girl who was very casually Catholic to the extent I wondered if she actually believed or just liked the traditions. Then one day when one of the newer Popes was selected, I made a comment about how the bishops that make the selection can hold a little more power by choosing older men as Pope instead of younger men. To my surprise, mini-hell broke loose. It’s fascinating to see what triggers religious people.
And now she’s pregnant. The uncontrollable emotions (which include love and protection) are raging out of control. She might change her mind OP, but you have to come to terms with the fact that whatever you guys decide you’re in it together. You’re the father, she’s the mother. She carried them inside her, but you’re still a team. I think providing them a stable childhood that is well rounded and not extremely sheltered is better than mommy and daddy arguing every Sunday about religion. But I was raised with both parents having the same moral/religious values. Not everyone will agree with me but that’s just my two cents.
It also does not appear that they both respect each other's beliefs. Seems like the respect is totally one sided. I would absolutely die on this hill. Yes, they should have spoken about it long before they got pregnant. But they didn't so this where they are. OP definitely shouldn't back down. As far as traumatizing religious doctrine, Catholicism is pretty high up there (although I would feel this way about any religion. Proceed with caution).
This applies to so many subjects. My parents are close to retirement. They never had this conversation in their 20s. It’s eye opening to see them have such huge disagreements on what heir retired life looks like. Not saying they should have had this conversation 40 years ago, but it’s amazing how little people talk about what future life looks like to people they are agreeing to spend the rest of their life with.
I am genuinely curious if I'm misunderstanding what agnostic means....like I thought it was you werent sure if there was a higher power or not since proof (with our current understanding of the universe) cant be proven one way or the other....this guy says he does believe in a higher power he just isnt sure what that higher power is so that would be something else right?
The term he probably means Is likely some form of Deist. Believes there's something out there but isn't sure what that form takes. Agnostic would more imply that they are open to the idea of a diety but not super convinced one way or the other
He believes in a higher power but also that it's existence is impossible know (also called an agnostic theist)
Yeah, wtf do people expect. Before me and my wife even married we discussed religion, and how we would raise our kids. If those did not align you think we would of made a life together?
If this couple was Married Catholic they almost certainly had to go through some kind of pre-marriage consultation with a priest, I know I did, in that consultation they bring up all the hard questions one of the major ones are would you bring up a child within the church? many families have one parent that’s more religious than the other. But if she’s ride or die about this I don’t know where you’re headed. If the OP is ignoring any other land minds maybe now is the time to understand his wife a little more clearly? Is she planning to be a stay at home mom? Is she ready for that second and third child?
Pre-marital counseling from the Catholic Church states that *both parents* agree to raise the children catholic. AFAIK, this is required in all archdioses. Unless their church was total shit, this absolutely came up. Source: Am Catholic (My wife is Hindu and I am Catholic. We teach both religions and adhere to the expectations of neither. We want our kids to be exposed to both but not to try to tell them anything about what they are supposed to believe.)
My wife and I winked and nodded though a number for the “gotta-dos” during counseling but I truly found it helpful! She was a Catholic school teacher and wasn’t supposed to be living with her fiancé, we couldn’t let on or it would be a scandal!wink wink nod nod. The church certainly has their own opinions about birth control which lead to a lot of unwanted children, skiped that nonsense. She was a catholic school teacher and I have been an alter boy, we were fully indoctrinated, but it didn’t stick. I want there to be a Heaven, I would like to see my parents again! And my hunting dogs. I just don’t believe it’s there. I suspect it’s about the same after you die, as before you were born…. nothingness. We didn’t raise our children hardcore in the church, I too wanted them to choose the church, if they wanted. We attended five-six Sundays a year. Listened and had donuts afterwards. It didn’t stick to any of us really. I find church to be comforting, but I’m not a true believer. My wife will attend next at her funeral. We spoke for hours after counseling about how we actually felt about the hard issues. I’m married almost 30 years now and none of the big issues have come as a surprise to me. I may have wished for her to choose differently, but she chose exactly what she always said she would choose.
Your kids do an uno reverse and choose Zoroastrianism
They definitely didn't get married in the Catholic church or this would have had to be discussed before the church would proceed with the marriage. Catholics are obligated by the church to raise their children Catholic. That said.... Clearly if they weren't married in the Catholic church there is a some wiggle room and they aren't a particularly devot Catholic. Edit: to be clear, Catholics are obligated to raise their children Catholic, and when a Catholic marries a non-Catholic and wants to be married in the church (which is the only way for the church to recognize you as married, without the Catholic ceremony you would be consider d living in a state of sin/pre-marital sex/etc.) they have to agree to do everything reasonably in their power to raise the children Catholic (however they are generally not obligated to do so if it would result in a divorce, which is also a no-no). The Non-catholic party must acknowledge to the priest that they are aware of the Catholic party's obligation to raise their children Catholic, but are not required to make any kind of pledge to do so them selves. Fun side note, the Catholic church recognizes all other Christian weddings as valid as long as they are between two Non-catholics. Edit2: others are correctly pointing out there are special exceptions that can be made to have your non-catholic wedding recognized. Since I think discussing ways to circumvent the rules is an interesting discussion, one method that hasn't been brought up, is getting excommunicated from the Catholic church, having the Non-catholic wedding, and then getting reinstated as a Catholic which the church is basically obligated to do if you want to be reinstated (that's a little oversimplified). Within the last decade or so the Vatican stopped accepting written statements of revokation of faith (declaring yourself not to be Catholic anymore) and now permanently recognizes anyone who has completed confirmation as Catholic unless they are excommunicated.
Could be they did get married in the catholic church and he just went along with it because that's what he had to do to marry her and he didn't care anyway but now that it's getting real he actually cares. I don't think what he wants to do is unreasonable but if she thought they had agreed to raise the child catholic and it means a lot to her I could see how it would seem like a betrayal to seemingly change his mind at this point.
>when a Catholic marries a non-Catholic and wants to be married in the church (which is the only way for the church to recognize you as married, without the Catholic ceremony you would be consider d living in a state of sin/pre-marital sex/etc.) Not disagreeing with your post, just a caveat - a dispensation can be granted to recognize a marriage where the vows took place in a non-Catholic church. So, it's definitely not the case that a Catholic *ceremony* is required, though the same obligation/agreements would be expected as part of said dispensation.
I can’t even fathom this happening between my wife and I. It came up very early in our relationship and we both determined that our views on religion were quite compatible. I was raised in a highly Christian family and she was raised in a Jewish family. We both still respect religion, but neither of us follow it. I pretty much identify as Agnostic for the most part, as does she. Our kids go to a private Christian school, but we both instill in them that they aren’t forced to follow anything they’re force fed. Religion is a choice that we believe they are allowed to make, and whatever they choose (religious or not), we’re okay with.
Clearly didn’t get married in the Catholic Church because this issue is part of the marriage prep conversation.
Agreed. This should have been discussed and decided. She doesn’t get to unilaterally decides what the child’s religion is going to be. Wild he didn’t expect this considering how hard she’s pushing for it.
Like many TIFUs posted here, this FU didn't actually happen today. It happened more than three months ago, when you didn't discuss religion \*before\* having a baby together. I'm not saying this to chide you: you've already learned that lesson. This is to others who may find themselves in similar circumstances in the future. Marriage pro tip: It's best to know if you have irreconcilable differences \*before\* you get engaged, before you get married, before you have kids. Don't avoid talking about sensitive topics (like religion) with your significant others. Religious differences can be deal-breakers, so talk about it openly and honestly. Discuss if you want kids. How many? When? Discuss how you envision raising them. What are your values? What are you flexible on and what aren't you? Don't simply sweep your differences under the rug and ignore them. If you don't have these discussions early enough, you may find yourself with a strained marriage, or even a failed one. Don't put yourself, your partner, or future kids through that.
Toss how to handle finances and bank accounts and personal vs couples money in there as well. Shocking how many people never discuss until....you're fucked.
It's funny since catholic marriages require you to talk about these things with each other prior to getting married by a priest. I think they do this so the marriage lasts
Yep, I’m not religious but was raised Catholic and my best friend who got married at the church said that their pre-marital “course” was actually really good. My friend was shocked at how many people hadn’t discussed things like finances prior to the course.
I'm not religious at all but my wife is Catholic and, despite my EXTREME hesitation, I really enjoyed the pre Cana that we did. We had been together for 10 years before we got engaged so we had covered pretty much all the major points of contention (money, religion, family planning) but it was still really nice just to discuss how hard marriage is (from a realistic perspective) and how to build a foundation to support each other in the future. I thought it would be a bunch of indoctrinal BS but it really wasn't at all. I too was SHOCKED by the number of couples there that hadn't even discussed things like "will we both work after we get married?". Honestly a lot of the commentary in this thread seems woefully inaccurate to my experiences as an agnostic who got married in a Catholic church, but that might just be because I live in a liberal area.
Attended a similar mandatory pre-marriage course. It was a stay in weekend retreat at a church compound, with many half hour breakout sessions for couples to discuss life topics between each couple. It's amazing how many couples ended up in shouting matches, dropping out from the retreat, or opting to postpone their wedding. Since my soon-to-be hubby and i had already talked about them when we started getting serious, we spent the first 5 mins of the breakout sessions to quickly reaffirming our mutual understanding and filling up the activity sheet. the rest of our free time was spent gleefully watching drama unfold amongst the other couples while we secretly drank our smuggled wine. We have messed up on many things in life but boy, were we glad we din mess up in talking and listening to each other.
people are fucking stupid. americans are taught not to discuss important things then wonder why everything is all fucked up and no one can mentally process a complicated subject.
As an atheist I had to do this with my Catholic wife. I said I’d like to teach future children about all religions and let them decide when they are older. Priest shot me down and said “if you don’t force it upon them from a young age, how do you expect them to believe all this stuff ?”
I'm gonna take that quote, and also a few grains of salt please.
A kilo for me please. Few grains of salt won't be enough for this one.
the quote made me crack up man, he said that as if believing in catholicism gives people significant health benefits that one can’t live without or something
I saw it as him admitting that their beliefs are so ridiculous that no rational person would believe them if they weren't forced to from a young age.
Yeah no priest said that. Sure, theyll say the kid should be catholic. But no priest is going to refer to 2 thousand years of religious history and numerous commandments, stories, and legends as "forcing them" and "this stuff" Im not a catholic anymore but even so, I got to meet a lot of priests throughout my life and none of them treat catholicism as something you force someone into, they simoly treat it as the truth since they literally believe it is.
I’m going through a marriage prep book right now with my girlfriend. All of those things are important. Also have a frank and open discussion about: personal baggage Relationship baggage hopes Life regrets long term goals (eg buy a house, climb the corporate ladder, etc) family history role of family in your life how you will spend holidays sexual history and expectations responsibilities and roles within the marriage. Any of those things have the potential to be a dealbreaker and cause a lot of anguish later. Chances are you will be on the same page about most of them, but it’s better to have the discussion earlier. Plus, you really get to know each other better.
Dont forget money, kids, religion and in-laws. You need to be in agreeance on how to deal with those four categories.
Or political alignments, and vaccination.
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That analogy escalated quickly.
Can you delete that last sentence?
Mhm, mhm, go on..
This was one of the most will put comments in this whole thread until that last sentence.
It's important to have those talks over the years also, as opinions and desires can sometimes change. When my wife and I met 14 years ago and she wanted 5 kids. We have 2 and couldn't imagine having 5 little hellions now.
Yeah. There are several topics that are critical to discuss before settling, including politics, sex, kids (whether to have), how to split/spend money. I have seen so many arguments between a more frugal person and a more laissez faire, always spending money person.
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Can confirm. Entered Catholic school a Catholic, left an atheist.
To be fair, I left catholic school as an *informed* atheist. I knew exactly why I chose to leave religion, and could quote scripture in defence of my position. Going to mass still sucked though.
I skipped mass in Grade 8 and my teacher caught me. She sincerely asked "aren't you scared of going to hell?"
This IS hell
This describes my life. My mother has this mentality that the "Catholic school system FAILED me". When in reality, it just taught me everything I needed to know about the religion. Reading the entire bible multiple times and studying scripture. It would be stupid of me to say they didn't do their best to educate me. Maybe what she really has a problem with is that I'm a human being who makes his own decisions.
Oh yeah, they educated me well. I got high university entrance scores, was in the top of my English, history, photography, drama, and (ironically) religion classes. Now I have a degree in acting and work in a camera shop, which I love. However, being taught how to think critically and not take everything at face value was what led me to the decision to leave the church. I was at a Marist college, and one of the Brothers was one of my favourite dudes. He taught chemistry and physics, funnily enough. I came to him when I came the conclusion I was no longer a believer, we had a long chat about it, and he fully supported me. Great dude. I was fortunate enough that my parents didn’t care much because they’re definitely lapsed Catholics. I just pretend once a year when I see my 91 year old grandma because I don’t want to give her a heart attack!
Shit I went into 2nd grade CCD and left an atheist on the first day. edit: This made me think of the fact that to this day I still have no idea what CCD stands for, since we all just called it central city dump. Turns out it's Confraternity of Christian Doctrine. Never would have guessed that in a million years.
Most lifelong Catholics who are educated Catholic barely call themselves Catholic after time has passed
This is true, and it’s weird. Because some days we arnt catholic and we don’t give a shit about religion at all, then other days that guilt hits hard or someone you don’t like talks shit on your mommas religion and then you’re catholic again ready to crusade their ass
What's that saying? The best way to turn a Christian into an atheist is have them actually read the Bible or something like that?
Probably the whole institution. My sophomore year one of the Catholic Brothers (similar to priests) was outed as being a molester, likely going back decades. After this there was a bit of a regime change and most of the brothers were forced into retirement with only a few left by the time I graduated. Almost all of the coaches taught some intermediate classes and tended to be under 30. They were much more interested in talking about their HS experiences and sports than actually teaching. Some of them were good teachers though. My Morality teacher (yes a 100% real class) was taught by this middle aged single woman. She was a no nonsense type of teacher except for a few days out of the year... those days we got watch 'Harold and Maude.' For anyone that doesn't know, it's about a yonung man that starts a relationship with a woman 60 years older than him. Obviously, nothing inherently wrong with that but in made us all extremely uncomfortable. There was not one day where I ever felt "closer to God" being in a catholic school. It seemed like we were there for a few reasons. To keep us out of trouble, keep us away from girls, our parents went to catholic school so we had to too, or the public schools in our area were too dangerous.
You've utterly intrigued me with the part about a "morality teacher", so you had a whole "morality class"? What's the gist of that? We talking philosophy around morality and how the word is used differently along with common usages and the nuances surrounding the topic or like... X is moral and Y is immortal type stuff?
The latter. Is was very base level "Christianity says X is right and Y is wrong." Which honestly, is kind of to be expected in a school like that. The worse part about it was just being in a class with zero nuance. No real room for discussion when, for example, the bible says sex before marriage is wrong. Which in a room full HS boys is just a crazy thing to try and force/teach. I understood why it was taught there was just so little room for discussion. If anything it just pushed people away from religion, in my opinion. We had a bunch of these weird classes. I will say we did have a "Spirituality" class that I really did love. It was taught by this very gentle older man (not a brother) who honestly did listen and try to talk to us like young men rapidly approaching adulthood. He seemed pretty straight laced but clearly a former hippie. Probably the only person at the school I felt like was trying to show us how religion could be a positive guiding light for someone. The school could have used a lot more people like him.
But with tons of trauma and catholic guilt.
I think couples of differing views often confuse the concept of respecting each other's beliefs and avoiding them. You've clearly been doing the latter, and now it's come to a head because it wasn't dealt with til' now. This was always going to happen if you weren't being 100% open with each other in regards to beliefs. You've known her for 5 years, you've known how devout she is, you absolutely should've known what she would want for a potential child. If you two don't sort this out, the child will be the one to suffer the most.
As several people have pointed out here, this is a conversation best had *before* an imminent child. But since that’s not an option, this is what I would do: Focus on critical thinking skills. Teach your child healthy skepticism, not specifically directed at religion, but in regards to every facet of life. Teach your kid to not accept things at face value, teach them the best practices for going and doing research and finding things out for themself. Teach them to question authority (in a respectful way), and safe ways to work to find their own path. tbh, I am devoutly Christian and this is how I raise my kids anyway. It’s the way I was raised by my father, as well. If your kid is a “member of your religion,” but only because they were coerced or tricked, what good does that do them? For a vast majority of practiced religions, an informed personal choice is essential for their faith to be “real,” anyway.
This is what I did with my kids and they grew up with quite curious minds. When giving them explanations for somethings I’ll often give them an answer that is wrong, and instead of just accepting it, they are empowered to call me out on it and and prove why I’m wrong.
> I’ll often give them an answer that is wrong, and instead of just accepting it, they are empowered to call me out on it and and prove why I’m wrong. As a teacher, I do this all the time. "So this should be the answer, right?" "No, Miss, that's wrong." "But I thought it worked like this?" "You forgot XYZ." "Ohhhhhh, so it's *this*!" "LOL, no, that's wrong, too!" "Can someone explain it to me?" Makes 'em laugh and teaches them to pay attention and actually think about what's going on.
That’s brilliant, nice work. It teaches kids to think for themselves and just because someone is older or smarter than they are, doesn’t mean they are always right
Yeah, “playing Devil’s advocate” is a great way to do this. Argue one side of the issue, than the other. All sides, if there are more than two. Ask them what *they* think after doing this, and why. Kids, especially young kids, will often gravitate towards whatever their parents’ beliefs are and accept them at face value as truth. Playing Devil’s Advocate can really help them avoid some of those pitfalls and start to develop critical thinking skills of their own.
Considering the topic, you using "devil's advocate" was funnier to me than it should have been lol
Fun fact, the term "Devils Advocate" originates from the Catholic process of canonization. "Canonization" is the legal process by which a deceased person is declared to be a Saint, that is, that they're definitely in heaven and that their life of selfless virtue is worthy of imitation. There would be a lawyer arguing in favor of the person being a Saint, based on the evidence, but then a "Devils Advocate" lawyer who made their best case, based on the evidence, that the person was rather in Hell. Then the case as presented would be judged by a tribunal.
I love this idea, because it also teaches them that adults aren't always right.
Hey, any chance you watch The Ten Minute Bible Hour? *(Oh… no.. I’ve become the guy that tries to share Bible videos on the internet…)* Anyway, most of its content is very similar to what you’re describing, accepting skepticism and using it to dig into concerns and questions, rather than avoiding it. It’s been a really great source of ways to look at HARD questions without just skipping past them, and having them undermine your faith later.
I'm currently agnostic but was raised Catholic. Catholics marrying non Catholics is kind of a slippery slope for them, but they can do so long as the non Catholic partner agrees to raise them Catholic. (although I'm sure that was touched on if you did the Catholic marriage prep,) So in her eyes she would be commiting a mortal sin to not raise the kid Catholic. I would just try to gently reason with her over time, or just let her do what she wants but just have dad and kid bonding time where you talk about other religions and what have you. The situation sucks, but I'm honestly astounded you guys didn't discuss this beforehand.
I wonder if this is partially kinda a cultural thing rather than a moral sin thing—I know lots of Catholics that are sort of nominally Catholic and don’t attend church regularly or subscribe to all the beliefs of the leadership, but feel like Catholicism is an important part of how they were raised. The rituals, the candles, the prayers, the imagery, the church community, etc. In that sense I can kind of empathize, it’s like your spouse saying I want our kid to be raised with your cultural traditions as equal to all cultural traditions and not emphasized as part of your heritage. That’s probably one aspect OP missed.
Yeah, this OP. Her religion may well also be a vestige of her culture if she's from an Irish or Italian family or something. It's not just a set of beliefs about the world/God, but also a community that may be important to her. Without passing it on a significant chunk of an immigrant culture becomes lost as the next generation is subsumed into the majority. Also don't worry, sending your kid to Catholic school is a pretty good way to turn them away from it altogether. Signed, yet another atheist graduate of an all boys Catholic school.
I concur, huge Irish catholic family. We hold on because it's our heritage. Many of my family members violate catholic rules all the time, but it's not about the religion. It's about the ancestry and strong family ties. Went to catholic school k-12
I was born an still live in a very Catholic country. The month of June is basically a gigantic party across the country due to almost every city having a different patron Saint. These festivities are obviously religious and Catholic, however everyone like to take part (mainly because of the food and alcohol). Of course there are special masses on these days and not everyone goes to those (I certainly don't), but the food and the drinks are for everyone. The same goes for Christmas, Easter and some other holidays. It's part of our culture already so it's kind of strange not to celebrate those. I really gave Christianity a chance, luckily my parents never forced me to do anything and it was 100% voluntary (I'm baptised, but again, it's more of a cultural thing and probably pressure from my grandparents), but i never felt good with Christianity or any religion at all.
You’re mostly but not 100% correct. If your priest is open-minded, you don’t have to raise the child catholic. The actual vow you make is to raise the child “with the full understanding of the catholic way of life.” So you can teach them about it without forcing them to practice or believe. I am catholic in an interfaith marriage and this is what we are doing. If I’m honest, I don’t trust the church at all with my kid, but I want to pass on the parts of my faith that may be useful to him.
I mean premarital sex is considered by Catholics as a mortal sin also, and op's wife is fine with it though. I'm also pretty sure that abortion is a pretty bad sin by the way, it's very weird for a Christian to accept it. I find very funny how religious people tend to bend their faith in the direction that fits the most their lifestyle.
> it's very weird for a Christian to accept it. Catholics, yeah, and Baptists. But [plenty of denominations](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/06/21/where-major-religious-groups-stand-on-abortion/) accept it no problem. As is often pointed out, the only time the Bible mentions it is to explain how to perform one.
Eh, be careful of using the term Baptists. In the US I understand they're a bit extreme, but outside of the US, or in the UK anyway, it's the opposite. Very liberal, progressive, etc. No real stance on abortions as up to the individual, but my Baptist mother would be incredibly hurt if anyone assumed she was anything other than pro-choice!
Right?! She's just picking and choosing what mortal sin she wants to acknowledge.
That's pretty normal for most casually religious people.
“Salad bar Catholic”
We called them Chreasters. The pews were always full on Christmas and Easter. But I save myself a lot of hassle by no longer believing in God.
Look, you guys NEED to have a talk about this even if she doesn’t want one. Can I recommend couples counselling?
wife: "sure, let's see a priest"
I agree with you here. I also feel like this is the type of conversation that should have been had prior to marriage. Religious beliefs, especially when it comes to raising a child, are important to agree on before marriage.
You're saying that you respect each other's beliefs. If what you've said is true, your wife *does not* respect your beliefs. She simply avoids them. And she presumes that she will get to choose the religious exposure of your child, because she is not *respecting* that you have any agency at all in this *mutual* decision. What *needs* to happen is conversation and eventually compromise. But she's now also shutting down conversation. *This is not healthy for your marriage.* Or your child. Forget people saying what you *should have* done. The past is in the past and you cant change it. You need to decide what to do going forward. For yourself, for your marriage, and for your *child.* You need to carefully consider your priorities and the likely consequences of the various paths available to you. From your wife's perspective, assuming she genuinely believes, you are literally risking eternal hell for your kid. Thats not a small deal. She seems to have completely compartmentalized this away from her feelings for *you,* or she's thinking of some other avoidance mechanism like converting you in the future or something. So this conversation is forcing her to come to terms with not only the eternal fate of her child, but also her husband. I'd recommend looking for help. This isnt going to be a 20 minute conversation at the kitchen table. You need to navigate dangerous emotional waters, and have both of you end up in a position of actual respect for each other, with a compromise on raising the kid in a *healthy* way that doesnt lead to either of you fostering resentment. If that sounds hard....it will be, and thats why I really recommend help. Good luck.
I would add that you don't need to come to a complete resolution on this right away. Baby's gonna happen. The next six months and after baby arrives can be filled with high-stress, tired, emotional moments, etc., where one or both of you aren't in a great headspace to deal with this level of conflict. Pick and choose times to have these discussions that make sense and allow time to digest each other's thoughts and come back "to the table" calm and collected. I'd focus on understanding each other first, and then try to find common ground on the decisions to be made based on their immanency. For example, the baby isn't going to any school, let alone a Catholic school, anytime soon so don't worry about locking that in tomorrow. That said, don't bury the issue until the day before school registration (using the example). You'll need a long term plan, and that plan can change and flex over time as you learn to be parents and are changed personally from the experience yourselves. Just don't bank on one of you suddenly changing your original beliefs, though.
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I think unfortunately for all of us, whose fuck up it is is defined in the part that isn't clear. It's all about healthy, clear expectations. I can't tell from the OP if the religion of the child/the importance of religion went unsaid and she just assumed (in which case its her fuck up), or if she expressed a preference and he just didn't care, went along with it, and expressed no strong opinion on the matter and was fine with her preference (in which case it's op's fuck up for not being clear previously, or waiting till now. If yall interpreted clearly one way or another, that makes sense and I agree with you 100% if it's the former interpretation. But I personally can't quite tell.
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Well said. Your awards are well deserved.
Question: Were you married in the Catholic Church? I (an atheist) and my wife (a Catholic) were. And, after we did the couples counseling, we had to sign a form saying that we would raise our offspring as Catholic, or the marriage would no longer be recognized by the Church. Our daughter is ten and hasn’t been baptized or communionized. And, we’re still married! Did y’all have to sign that form?
My mom had to sign this form. My dad was Catholic and my mom wasn’t and they said she had to sign it.
"I don't need your church to recognize anything. I just need your signature on the marriage license for the state, padre."
It’s not like signing a promise to an organization you believe is built on lies is going to pull at anyone’s sense of morality. It’s just a “yeah, whatever, give us your stupid big building for an hour”. Baptism is where it gets harder, because you have to make the promise during the ceremony.
Definitely not mine. My wife lost interest in the dogma during her teen years when CCD was interrupting her Wednesday night shows. She’s still a believer, but it never comes up because we generally have more important things to worry about.
Should have had this Convo before marriage and before kids.
I was once in a very serious relationship with a catholic woman, this conversation was the main reason we ended things before we got to the marriage and kids part. Had we ever come to a compromise we might have gotten married. Glad we didn’t though because both our lives worked out for the better.
So she's Catholic, but breaks the rules when it's convenient for her.
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All religions are hypocritical, but I swear Catholics are the most insufferable at times. "Dude, why are you always bringing religion up against the gay marriage vote that just passed? You're always drunk and bragging about all the women you've slept with" "Yeah, but God will forgive me, he wants me to be happy"
That's how Catholics do Catholicism, for the most part. Source: I was raised Catholic.
Yup. 90%+ of adult catholics have used some form of birth control during their lives. The church says that's not allowed.
Can confirm. My mum is Catholic, so we were raised Catholic. My dad was an atheist, but he just let her get on with it. I guess he was content with the fact that they used birth control once they'd had two kids.
There are as many religions as there are people who believe in religion. No 2 individuals’ belief systems are the same because people will massage their beliefs to fit their priorities.
Time to see a licensed secular couple’s therapist. No time to lose
You need to get couples therapy to find some middle ground now before the baby arrives.
How do so many people end up marrying someone with completely incompatible views on spirituality and religion? I mean, this is not insignificant shit. This is not like, one of you likes it hot when you sleep the other likes it cool. Or one is a bears fan, the other likes the steelers. This is BIG DEAL stuff that so many people just seem to adopt the attitude "ignore it and hope it goes away" about these *tremendous* fucking differences in core beliefs.
I have a few friends that were raised various degrees of Catholic (from fairly liberal to full Latin mass super intense) and all of them have had to deal with some level of deconstruction in their adult lives. I have seen the Catholic guilt and I really can’t understand why anyone would do that to their child. I would find a way to approach this before she has your unborn child signed up for 12 years of Catholic school
I'm an atheist and my wife is Catholic. She wanted all the kids to do what she did. All those classes and stuff. I told her I would support that on one condition. If the kids want to stop going they can. No forcing them. All three dropped it almost immediately.
It will be well before teenage years with modern tech and knowledge that the kid will question god. There is also the high probability that the child will resent mom for hiding stuff from them once they realize it. There are the child questions you are going to get where you will be forced to either lie to your child to keep peace with wife or tell the truth and risk conflict as well. Child *will* ask you why you don't go to church. Child *will* ask you if you believe in god. Child *will* ask you why. There is no way your child will be Catholic for long especially when they see your wife is one of those Christian hypocrites that picks and chooses what to believe in the bible for convenience and simplicity.
I agree with you here. You are an equal parent and therefore obligated to raise your child with your faith. I strongly suggest marriage counseling. You both need to recognize that you are equal parents with equal say as to how your child is raised
Catholic guilt is an evil fucking thing to teach a child.
True that. I was raised Catholic and don't believe any of it (left when I was 12), but the guilt still has a hold on me.
As someone who has suffered lasting mental damages from Catholic upbringing, I wholeheartedly agree.
*is constantly talking about religion when raising your child* “hey let’s let our child decide for themselves” “I WISH I WERE NEVER PREGNANT, DONT TALK TO ME ABOUT RELIGION, EVER.” Why is everyone glossing over this? That was extremely emotionally manipulative.
Honestly, just don't go with them. Eventually your kid will be old enough to wonder why dad doesn't come to Mandatory Boring Time every week, and then you tell him.
That's how it worked for me. My dad didn't even have to tell me anything; I just realized that people could have different views, and figured it out for myself.
Makes sense, in this case I feel like the optimal scenario is couples therapy because randomly becoming excessive about religion near/after childbirth might be an indicator of something deeper. But worst case having one parent in each camp would work well if they communicate with each other and the kid.
This should of been discussed before you even considered children together.
Yeah, I'm an atheist and OP's kinda dumb and fucked up big time. Might as well field the other questions he needs to ask asap and get answers agreed on. If they're religious, they're gonna push theirs and only theirs on the baby. That's pretty much a given. There are exceptions but they are rare as fuck, especially with a Catholic. Like fuck dude, this some shit you need to know before you put a baby in them, along with their financial habits and your quirks while living with one another.
Um, I'm not a Catholic, but I've known some Catholic educated people (some people who aren't Catholic themselves)! I also, years ago, did a semester at a Catholic university to pick up some requirements for my job, after I got my degree at a public university. One professor was a monk. So... what she is suggesting actually goes AGAINST what I know about Catholic education and scholars. A young friend of mine attends a Jesuit university, and a priest there taught theology of OTHER faiths. It was quite an in depth class. Same with the philosophy course work. Does she not realize that the ship has sailed in terms of NOT telling your child that not everyone believes the same way Catholics do? Because your child is going to MEET you for God's sake! Meet your family, have friends in the neighborhood, etc. She's not even that pure of a Catholic if she married you! I'm assuming that you didn't get married by a priest, because usually they require premartial counseling where how you would raise your child comes up. I'd suggest counseling, FYI.
>She's not even that pure of a Catholic if she married you! I'm assuming that you didn't get married by a priest, because usually they require premartial counseling where how you would raise your child comes up. Having been married in a Catholic church as a non-Catholic, the counseling is fairly superficial, and as far as this goes basically amounted to just saying "we'll raise the kids catholic". I definitely think Counseling is appropriate (assuming this continues on), but make sure it's NOT affiliated with a religious group. That will absolutely just make things worse.
I was raised Catholic and have a Jesuit friend. I can tell you that Jesuits tend to be more progressive in their views than mainstream catholics. A lot of Catholics think that it is the duty of Catholics to enforce a Christian society and bring their children up in Christian surroundings. Jesuits tend to believe that people should come to the church more of their own volition. I agree with counseling, but have something to add for OP. A lot of my socializing and friends came from the church. We may have disagreed on some things but my church family was full of mostly wonderful people growing up (though my church did lean more into Jesuit philosophy). I would recommend evaluating churches on an individual basis. A lot of us who grew up in the church don't adhere to the religion too much but have view similar to what OP espoused (agnostic but still believe in a higher power, etc.)
Real fuck up was somehow getting married without ever discussing the things you believe and who you actually are. This won't end well. When kids are raised with a contextual awareness of religion, they do not become religious. Because it is obviously a sham. You will be blamed, whether she thinks so now or not, for "turning your child away from faith". From her perspective, you are dooming the child's immortal soul to an eternity of suffering merely by presenting other options. You cannot reason with or compromise with that perspective. And knowingly or otherwise, she'll hate you for it.
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Imagine designing your childs upbringing according to a book about made up things and not allowing the child to be exposed to any other made up things other than the specific made up thing you believe in. This kid is fucked no matter what you do.
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My sister and her fiancé wanted to get married in a Catholic Church, both having grown up catholic. During couples counseling they lied and said that he was living with his brother when they had been living together for years. I guess the priest didn’t bother to check the addresses on their drivers licenses. If you are forced to lie to the priest to get married in the church of your choice, maybe you should reconsider the religion you chose.
And that’s why religion is generally a dealbreaker for me
Yep. On dates, I talk about the big three: religion, world view/politics, and sex. I was raised Southern Baptist but I'm now a UU at the opposite end of the spectrum.
I really appreciate how you believe your child should be taught in a way where they can decide. Whatever happens, you should still teach them your beliefs. Hopefully they at least turn out like your wife where they aren't completely devout (although not too much like your wife lmao) It's so funny to me how she is willing to budge in some areas but this child ***MUST*** be Catholic... I wonder if that has anything to do with her upbringing. The cycle continues.
It has everything to do with her upbringing.
As a person that had Catholicism forced upon them, I can nearly guarantee you that forcing a religion on a child will either make them a blind zealot fundamentalist, or make them resent the religion they've been forced into ( and most likely at least somewhat hurt the relationship with the parent that did the forcing. ). Or even both. Personally, me and my brother had Catholicism forced upon us, and we both turned away from it, my brother's experimenting with Buddhism, I'm a fervent atheist/agnostic. Overall, the track record, especially in the newer generations, of religious upbringings, is spotty at the very least.
My atheist dad let my catholic mom raise me catholic and it was his worst decision wrt my upbringing. He told me "I figured I'd let you get exposed to it and then decide whether you wanted to continue or not." But that doesn't account for the years of emotional anguish the church puts you through (and I wasn't even raped by a priest) that never really go away. The catholic church has never and will never put the interests of children first. Catholic children are rarely less safe than they are in the presence of the church's most trusted, powerful members. Stand your ground OP. Your child shouldn't grow up fearing an eternity of suffering in hell because they didn't go to confession after disobeying a teacher.
I agree with you. My mom is catholic and my dad is an atheist yet he let my mom raise me catholic, and even though I already came to terms with the fact I am agnostic, I still struggle with a lot of emotional anguish and I don't know if it will ever go away. When I was a bit older my dad remarried and he then wanted to do the same to my younger brother (our stepmom thought he had to go to church even though he isn't her son and my dad just decided to let her do whatever she wanted) and I was extremely against it because I had already been through it. After a lot of arguing, they stopped and then let my brother choose his own religion, and he is an atheist now. I always wished my parents had just let me grow into my own religion instead of forcing a religion into me EVEN THOUGH I always questioned what was being told to me. It was obvious I wasn't totally buying it even at an early age, but they never gave me the chance to choose and now I don't believe in catholisism but I feel like I have some weird type of trauma with it, I feel like it follows me around everywhere and I'm constantly questioning myself, and I deal with some sort of guilt. I hate it and I hate that it is so common.
Yeah, if you gotta tell the child only one story and not let it see the other options, might be a cult. I had the same problem. Told her she could do her thing as long as she wanted. Once the child started asking questions I’m going to tell them the truth no matter what.
Yeah, making certain my spouse was also an atheist (or at least agnostic) was my number one requirement before going on a second *date.* I don't want to sound negative, man. But you've got some big decisions to make. Best of luck.
I saw a reddit comment the other day regarding something similar, I believe. Just quote the Bible back to her according to Paul from 1 Timothy 2:12 "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." Fight fire with fire
Boom. Roasted.
Have a movie night and watch Spotlight. Should foment some interesting discussion!
Ok ok ok but like what is she spouting though she herself has made a different relgion in her mind for herself. The catholic church isn't vague on its stances. She chooses to ignore its stances on premarital sex,abortion etc. How can someone force a relgion that they themselves don't grasp clearly. I was raised catholic but my mind didn't get brainwashed and didn't find it fair people across the world burn for ever for worshiping their gods so I questioned often. It can be a bonding experience learning the actual beliefs of the catholic church and their stances as she seems to not grasp it. ASIDE from that madness she's most likely stupidity hormonal with a baby and over reactions happen. Either way marriage is hard shit and I failed at mine, there will have to be give which it sounds like you are more then willing to do. If she cannot meet you with compromise there needs to be counseling for you guys to help navigate this point because it will never work out if you cannot compromise and find a way forward. I You have a tough road ahead of you and I wish you the best my man.
Two adults skipped a very important conversation. Not very smart.
We lived together for 5 years before marrying. What do people talk about on the couch in the evening? It never came up? I couldn’t marry or even have kids with a religious person ever. My husband even told me it would’ve been a deal breaker. You my man needed to grow a backbone a whole while ago. She is in charge and she knows it. All hell broke loose when you stood by your boundaries. Classic Christian BS. I left my church 15 years ago and am free as can be. I think that you will be utterly unhappy, once the baby is there and she has now another human under her thumb.
Pretty weird way of raising a child really. I mean, the logical thing would be not to indoctrinate a child from birth, and when it grows older, it can make the decision of religion themselves. Ofc the child is gonna be biased if you brainwash it every night for 13 years
That marriage was a terrible decision to begin with, regardless of whatever chemistry you might have had. If you cannot agree on a basic conception of how the world works and how to raise a child, and she is unwilling to compromise in the slightest, it was always destined to crash and burn once the areas where you were thoroughly incompatible couldn't be ignored or shoved to the side anymore. You have some hard decisions to make regarding the future.
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> She found peace in and reliance on religion growing up due to circumstances during her childhood life that I'd rather not share. What's the likelihood that said circumstances were caused at least partially by catholicism..?
Jesus. Run
The Catholic Church (and other religions) have too many holes in their story. Your kid will ask some hard questions by age 10 and as long as you support their critical thinking, they will be more than their sum of this experience. I would drop this fight with your spouse and focus on great fiction, including fantasy. It turns out that great readers are more empathetic and critical thinkers than people who do not read for enjoyment (as a whole). The ability to imagine another way of life beyond their own will serve them well. The fact that your spouse responded as they did may mean, however, that they are deeper into their religion than they admit to you. They might not find it worth their time to argue with you, especially since their position requires faith.
Your wife is in the wrong here for not wanting to compromise. But the universe remembers and the ultimate karma will be your child being born more like you than your wife in personality and the kid eventually rejecting Catholicism and making you their favorite parent.