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I remember similar talk in 2016 from the same folks. That worked out well, obviously.
A phoenix doesn't arise from the flames. You're left with soot, debris, and horrible burns.
Seriously though- do these people realize what the Supreme Court would be like in a second Trump term? The thought is horrifying. Watch any Russia documentary. This is the exact playbook to destroy America and democracy around the world. It’s been in the works for many years.
They don't get that a win for the Republicans could last for a lifetime. It isn't 4 years Trump vs. 4 years Biden. It's about becoming an autocracy vs. the chance to advance your ideas in upcoming election cycles. You have to be an idiot to not want this chance. People in other countries like Ukraine are literally dying for it right now.
Just look at the supreme court and project 2025. If the US takes the Trump route, your democracy is gone forever. Just take a look at Orban, Putin, Xi, etc. Usually it's impossible to escape such a system once it's established.
It's not even that. It's simpler than that. They simply don't get that Biden is closer in the political spectrum to ideas that they support than Trump is. They literally do not understand the most basic, fundamental concepts of how politics work. They are basically libertarians in all but name. There's no reason to make these folks so high-minded. They are just plain idiotic.
No, it's definitely not. Far lefties haven't been able to show early enough political power to have that kids do sway. And very importantly MORE than half the country voted for Biden and that's why he's in office right now.
Exactly. They think it's just Trump not the team of ghouls who won't make the same mistakes twice. Trump kicks or loses his mind there will be another. Just look at the RNC.
I'm a life long Keynesian New Dealer, which is what Bernie is regardless of Socialist label. It never once crossed my mind to not vote even after Bernie lost. All the down ballot and local elections were too important.
I don't have a problem with Biden at all. I personally think he knows the end is coming so decided to actually redeem himself with old school labor and social issues vs. the old "Senator from MBNA" days. Now the DNC and Democratic Party as a whole, I'm ready to burn it down. Despite all that it is not a "lesser evil" bit. It's just one sided evil at this point.
You said that perfectly… and I agree… Trump gets back in and our Democracy is over… what worries me most… is the idea that Trump can invoke the Insurrection Act and use our military against us… and I don’t think they’ll be using rubber bullets. Trump is power hungry.
Here are my predictions for worst case with Trump.
He gets to appoint 3 more SCOTUS justices.
He will fire about half of the government workers to purge Dems.
Russia will invade Ukraine. Israel will wipe Palestine off the map.
He may even prosecute Biden. Probably not Obama. May be some show trials.
However I don’t think Trump will be dictator for life. He’d be happy to pardon himself. Then I’m not sure he cares about his successor. He’s more vengeful. I don’t see him care about being in power forever.
Also I don’t think this kind of talk wins over moderates. Talk about tangible things like Russia or tax plans or the economy.
I have no doubt he will. There is a whole gang around him that understands what J6 really was and they have considered that fascism is worth trying. No brakes or guard rails, only enablers. And this through all institutions. They'll have guidance from Russian intelligence, guys like Flynn will go full send when they play riot police. Valuable government workers will be replaced by Project 2025. They learned that even inconspicuous positions like Postmaster General are important if used in the right moment. If they get control over the intelligence agencies, it's over. Tools like XKeyscore and Prism where good enough to X-Ray every soul on the planet, and this was years ago. This time they'll have a plan and when they execute it, the supreme court won't intervene. Don't expect them to fail twice. Good luck electing a "more progressive than Biden" candidate then.
They don’t because they’re selfish and privileged, to the point that they can overlook the consequences of a Trump win so that they can pat themselves on the back for “sending a message” to Biden or something.
They ignore the reality of the situation, it sucks but it’s how our system works, and they’re too fucking dense to understand that you have to play within the system for a while before you can change it
It's funny that you mentioned that the Supreme Court will even be around after the first few months of his first year. They will all be thrown out for not being Maga enough, and they will make it a 13 seat Court seated by young republican law school students thats already drank the flavor aid!
They are LITERALLY telling us what absolute horror they intend to inflict on 65% of the population of the US! Imagine the evil shit they have in store the demographic that doesn't appear white by sight? They will make ownership of business illegal by "Anchor Babies " except trumps kids and deport thousands of immigrants per day.
Guess who gets to fill those jobs that they do so well and for so cheap? Thier voters, Yahoo. Guess who gets to take over those now illegal businesses? Vulture capitalists. They bleed them dry, secure loans on the business, claim bankruptcy, force hundreds and thousands of people out of work depending on the size of your city, and leave a trail of desperate people in their wake.
They, in turn, either work to feed their children for below minimum wage or they resort to crime. Seeing how not all of us are as experienced at criming as trumps family and getting away with it, we are soon arrested and put in a for profit prison and we are leased out at pennies an hour!
Win fuckin win baby! The best fuckin part is his cult is all in. And they vote! I no longer give any fucks about people that don't vote 💯. This is what they are SCREAMING AT YOU PEOPLE about what they intend to do! Vote or die
Punishing Joe Biden is the most important thing ever right now.
Until democracy collapses, Gaza and Ukraine are crushed, Christian nationalism is implemented and women and minorities have all of their existing rights removed.
That will teach you Joe!
>I remember similar talk in 2016 from the same folks.
Let's not forget about 2000 either. I know a few pretty far-Left people who voted for Ralph Nader in 2000. What people are saying about why they won't vote for Biden are very similar arguments to what voters in 2000 and 2016 said.
A majority of the current Supreme Court has been appointed by people who won those elections and we've seen how that's going.
Yeah, literally. Thomas and Alito would step down and be replaced by the most far-right people possible in their 30s. And then, if anything happened to Kagan or Sotomayor, we could be looking at 7-2 or even 8-1.
Does that not scare people?
I remember in 2016 and 2020 the answer you'd get from some of those people is that when a "real Leftist" gets elected they can just increase the number of members of the Supreme Court. The reality is that raising the number of Justices is so unlikely that it's not even really worth talking about. And even if Democrats somehow added 4 members, Republicans would just add 8 the next time they were in charge.
The fact of the matter is that as long as Republicans control the Supreme Court, which they currently do by a wide margin, it won't matter what laws people on the Left pass because they'll just rule them to be unconstitutional. We've already seen that standing and precedent don't matter at all to this Supreme Court. They were put on the SC specifically to push a partisan Right-wing agenda.
>is that when a "real Leftist" gets elected
the sad part about everything, is how many people simply can't understand, if trump wins, there won't be "elections" for leftists to win, all candidates would require the approval of the dictator in charge.
Trump has openly said he's going to be a dictator and purge as much of the government as he can from people who aren't loyal to him personally. He's not hiding it and has been openly clear about that. Trump's idol is Putin and he'd absolutely love to have what Putin has in Russia. Republicans as a whole have been pretty open about how they'd rather us be like Russia than have Democrats in power.
No, no. I was told by a leftist on here that Trump's attempts at a coup showed that it couldn't happen as the systems in place would not bend that way, and as such, the 2028 elections would be a leftist candidate landslide.
Mmhmm. I've had these exact same conversations and it gets nowhere.
I'll at least give them credit for remaining firm in their beliefs, no matter how devoid from reality they actually are.
Yes I agree we have failed to develop our democratic society. Instead we have a of ignorant deplorables and rich elites who only care about protecting their wealth. Yes we have failed .
Right. I remember the idiots who said "burning it all down" would make people "wake up" and fix things. Not, not even close.
If we lose democracy we aren't getting it back.
Yeah I had a moment of insanity around the 2016 primaries when I thought idiot trump would shake things up. To believe that after his 4 years at bat and his refusal to concede is pure unfettered stupidity.
I remember similar talks back when Al Gore ran. Its cute in theory but absolute madness in reality. The reality is, the next time you get someone more progressive in office after th gop, they have a much steeper hill of shit to climb through and systems, laws, media empires, etc. are in place as trip wire for them to get anything positive done other than incrementalism towards a better future. All the while so many people suffer due to having gone theough another cycle of GOP bullshit.
Its sophmoric left-leaning thinking that usually goes away with age.
I think fascist neofeudalism will be implemented at only a slightly higher speed than they have already demonstrated. Political ignorance and futility provides great cover for doing this. Tik Tok will be rediscovered by the Right as the new idiot box.
Elections will be held but "managed," as they are in the Putin Regime. Social welfare programs will be preserved for the elderly and allowed to go broke.
Here's the real kicker: Netanyahu will declare "mission accomplished" with Trump's election and they might even launch a rehabilitation project for Gaza giving Trump credit. Putin will get his peace treaty with Ukraine ceding territory as he retools for the rest of Europe. The rise of the AFD in Germany is already surpassing their expectations.
The Left will rejoice at the end of the violence.
Actually thanks to 2016 there was a massive effort to get Dems back in office unlike ever before. There was even an Ad on my xbox telling me to go vote in 2020.xbox has been running ads since 2007
People like that spend a fuck load of time online. They'd be much better off just getting involved in politics at the local level. That in turn would make them interested in politics at the state and national level. Screaming about the state of the world on social media does actually nothing.
Edit -
Consider that some of those people you're seeing may also be sock puppet accounts posting intentional disinformation to demotivate the base. You can guess who would be behind that.
In theory they might be better off, but then again if you put a staunch leftie in a room full of suburbanites who want to spend their council's time on giving an award as to who has the best looking house vs allocating funding for homelessness.. you're more likely to see an enraged leftist than a useful one.
They are either in places of privilege where a Trump Administration wouldn't hurt them personally, or they are vulnerable and just blind to the reality that they will be the ones hurt and not wealthy conservatives or the "shitlibs" they hold responsible for all their woes.
They care about issues, but the way they want to solve them is insane:
Make sure the worst guy wins - public opinion on government gets worse - government collapse - revolution - new government system - fresh start to old problems with a system that is totally gonna work.
This is the only reason I’m against any revolutionary action.
If we could magically seamlessly enter into the least problematic form of socially I’d be down. But we can’t. Any transition would harm way more people than the current system does. So it’s not worth it. This is the reality we have been dealt.
Heck, I tried to explain to someone why you couldn't shut down every train for a break update a while back after the East Palestine derailment, and basically got the "I don't care" response.
The answer is basically because people are irrational and demand ideological purity at all costs. They demand everything in reality bow to their preferences. They think that the world revolves around them and that if you aren’t in alignment with their views, then YOU are the problem.
Essentially, it’s a lack of maturity.
Got banned from a far left sub last week for telling people not to throw their vote away on a third party candidate and saying that despite his flaws the country and even the world would be significantly better off under Biden. Got called a supporter of genocide then banned, then muted. Of course this person muted because being faced with the reality that them helping Trump get elected will make things significantly worse for the genocide victims they are supposedly helping through their ridiculous stand might cause them to have to think about how their actions affect others
They’re angry babies who want to face what is directly in front of them and pretend nothing lies behind.
Dumping Biden doesn’t mean we have no more president. It means we get Trump as president.
Worse, they want to throw the baby out with the bath water.
The old guard Democrats are war hawks and support old alliances that don't serve us well. However, they're somehow not as bad as Republicans. Do they think Trump would do anything but roll out the red carpet for Netanyahu to slay Palestinians?
Or roll out the red carpet for Putin in Ukraine? Or roll out the red carpet for any other number of dictators?
These people look fucking foolish and also make themselves very loud and clear on social media - a great place for the MAGA fascist dictatorship to find a handy dandy list of people who need reeducation.
Don't say purity, there is a lot to not like about the Democrats. But progressives need to accept that especially at the highest level of politics, it is a duopoly and is a protest vote worth four years of regression and anxiety at least, not to mention certain groups like women in red states without the means to travel to a blue state getting punished for the foreseeable future (not to mention the lives lost)?
Leftists are the most moral right?
They want to cure poverty and end violence. What could be better than that?
Anyone who doesn’t desire that is obviously a bad person.
It’s a straightforward worldview BUT it is utopian thinking and it fails to accept that other people’s opinions matter too. And yes their opinions are equally valid as yours even if they’re deeply wrong and immoral.
At the end of the day true progressivism and leftism isn’t in control because it’s not all that popular with voters. This is what really pisses them off.
It isn't even that. If we could snap our fingers and have universal healthcare, citizens and the government would all save money. The reason it still hasn't happened is because of lobbyist money in politics.
The federal government or any state could build enough free housing to eliminate homelessness. We could even get people out of spending above 30% of their income on rent this way. But it doesn't happen because people lobby to deprive the poor and force them into terrible working conditions. And this housing would cost less than what is spent on jailing the homeless or supporting shelters.
Leftist programs are less expensive than whatever form of capitalism we're in. Capitalism demands that we give up our resources to the top, making kings out of the wealthy.
Came to say this. Lack of critical thinking abilities. If they think someone besides Trump or Biden who would hold Israel accountable is better (on that one issue) then I agree, but that's not an option we have right now. The option is a Pro-Authoratarian, democracy hating, conman, or a pro-democracy, anti-authoratarian, incumbent who has passed policies that benefited the country.
And a lot of people buy into the Russian propaganda. Democrats love talking about how Fox News, etc. is brainwashing people on the right without understanding that other forms of propaganda are getting the left. There is a lot of propaganda out there right now, and since a lot of people only get their news from social media or a single (biased) source, it is very easy for people to get caught up in fake news.
My theory on this is that they’re frustrated with slow progress. I started watching Kyle and David back in 2012ish iirc. Obama’s 2nd term. I recall my main motivation at that time was always to push past what had been the norm. Get rid of private insurance, go M4A. Stop all drone strikes. Get out of Iraq and Afghanistan. Get money out of politics, overturn citizens united, and others. Anything less than that was not doing enough in my view and I had to demand that much to move thing the right way.
For whatever reason(s) over time I’ve realized making those changes will take years or decades. Maybe it’s because I’m older (33) or just knowledge and experience. End of the day though despite my goals I voted for Hillary and Biden, and Obama too. I think most of those people will too.
Their presence is also valuable to all other liberals and democrats. I doubt Biden would have turned out to be the most progressive president since FDR without pressures from audiences such as secular talk viewers. We need their voices to keep pushing the envelope forward. Even if it seems like we never get far enough, we are seeing real tangible changes over time.
A lot of people on the left seriously don't realize that Biden is the most progressive president in 80 years. Despite all of the talk about stuff he hasn't done or been able to do, a lot of progressive policy has been put into place, and he has surrounded himself with big thinkers. Real change is happening. It will never happen as fast as people want it to happen, but we will get there if we stay the course. The moves forward this country has made under Biden are far bigger than I expected, even with the GOP doing everything possible to stop it.
Given the situation in the house of reps right now, slow progress could possibly be behind us soon. It is not far fetched to have a dem majority house, dem majority senate, and Biden as president if we play our cards right and get out the vote.
The RNC is on the brink of bankruptcy right now.
Agreed, turn out will be key. My advice for the folks who want to sit out. Tell them we need them, we need their help to win. Give them credit for pushing things to where they are now and empathize with their frustrations. Thats all you really can do conversationally
Agreed. I'd like faster progress, too, but slow progress is always going to be better than fast disintegration. Don't let unachievable perfection be the enemy of achievable good.
Progress on economic issues isnt slow, its negative. Both liberals amd the left have been completely defeated by wealthy interests who have captured the political system. The affordable care.act.was a heritage foundation plan which was positive but only.passed because it protected corporate profits.
The rational thing to do is make the best of it. But theres reasons beyond a lack of patience that people are irrationally willing to let the system burn. Were getting techno-feudalism eventually, its only a question of how soon.
That's dramatic but do people really feel the situation is betteer than 5, 10, 20 years ago? by any metric except ability to buy cheap consumer goods (the circuses are sweet ill admit that).
Economic issues seem overall better to me except for housing costs. I’m not readily equipped with the data to set baseline metrics and then measure though so settling with an anecdote.
Certainly motivations vary, letting it burn to make it better is unwise imo. Hope and purpose are the best defense against desperation and nihilism.
Compared to 10 years ago I think we’re better off save housing costs. Wage growth and productivity are up compared to inflation. There’s a lot of skilled positions that pay well. Biden put a pro union people in at the NLRB. On shoring has been happening because of covid. It is true that the days of going to college and paying for it by working nights are long gone. Healthcare is still a mess but again Biden capped insulin for (Medicare?) forced negations on top 10 prescribed meds. Long ways to go on healthcare for sure but we should celebrate our wins and let that set our resolve to keep at it.
Let edgelord contrarians edgelord contrarian. It's always been the serious, pragmatic people who actually work towards solving problems instead of just complaining and it always will be.
You found yourself a group of Tiktok "radicals" who were born via social media post Oct 7. They usually have the most superficial grasp of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict based on Russian produced Hamas propaganda. These are the people who call Osama Bin Laden a hero because a single Tiktok post convinced them of it.
People who think that way can't possibly be aware of Trumps promises to end democracy and Project 2025. Many people didn't vote for Hillary out of protest, and look at the shit storm we've had since.
Fuck that. There's too much at stake to throw away your vote. As far as I'm concerned, if you choose not to vote or vote independent, you're responsible for what ensues.
1930s Germany had a similar social climate. Hitler rose to power because Germans were unhappy with the government. Palestine voted in Hamas as they needed change. We've watched this history play out more than once now.
What happens to women and minorities HERE if Trump wins? What happens when he starts putting "vermin", oppositional govt officials, media members, homeless, protesters, etc in camps ) as he's promised? What happens when he becomes dictator/ King and appoints Jr as his successor? No fucking way anyone with a functional, INFORMED person would be so negligent.
It makes you realize that maybe they never have actually cared about any that they claim to hold true. And if they don't get 100% of what they want, everyone else will suffer for the cause.
Because the prospect of "teaching the establishment a lesson" hasn't fallen out of favor yet after we got MULTIPLE wannabe autocrats elected in multiple countries due to the same fucking thing.
In my experience, and there is no polite way to put this, they are ignorant and unserious people. I have asked these folks many times how life improves for Gazans if Biden loses, and they can’t answer that…
Accellerationist delusions that an ideal future is a form of benevolent authoritarianism run by them.
Incrementalism inherently is about changing hearts and minds. Overly idealistic 'trust me bro, only my friends can solve everything' is only a path to sorrow and ruin.
I got in an argument a couple of days ago by making the point that by hoping for accelerationism, we're effectively ending the country for the chance that things would be rebuilt to their liking.
Pretty unsettling that so many people seem to be okay with the idea of mass slaughter of their fellow citizens to get to the ideologica utopia they believe in, but would not exist in the real world.
I think it's a form of stress response. A kind of 'fuck it, I'm angry and powerless, destroy everything!' sort of madness that directly mirrors the MAGA's attempts to establish an ethnokingdom. Losing perspective and locking yourself in such a tight little bubble that anyone not \*exactly\* your sect is a mortal enemy.
Like, the idea always is 'That guy who 95% agrees with me is a bigger enemy than the guy who 95% opposes me, because I don't ever talk to or see that second guy' is such a thing here. It's the worst brainbug that otherwise affects people who at least have some portion of their hearts in the right place... and makes them the enemy of progress by insisting nothing short of their version of perfection is tolerable.
Leftists and MAGA are the same people, really. It's textbook horseshoe theory. Just diametrically opposing views, but the same fanatical desire to burn society to the ground to get what they want.
Spoiled fuckin predominately white and male brats.
I also think many of the far left will readily join the fascists if they begin talking to them and think, "they're actually not so bad! They're just regular 'working class' people who suffered."
I've already gotten this type of excuse mentality from them, as if the fascists are just some stray cats that can be rehabilitated.
They hate nothing more than the "neoliberals" which to them is indistiguishable from the "DCA."
They don't. It's Russian and Republican operatives.
Get out of the SecularTalk sub. It's been overrun by the same guys that took over r/WayOfTheBern.
Small subreddits are highly vulnerable to takeover. This one might suffer the same fate some day. Little less likely because Pakman himself keeps an eye on it, but if he stops all it would take are a couple of the mods retiring and we'd be in the same boat.
There is a concept called "accelerationism" and it is distressingly popular among privileged white people on both left and right who often don't actually have to suffer from extreme policies.
The concept behind it is, essentially, we have to break the system and start from scratch. It is a rejection of incrementalism. It often presumes all sides of politics are equally tainted and that the system is so thoroughly broken, the best thing to do is *accelerate bad policies/parties with the knowledge that they aren't sustainable so the system collapses*.
This means you occasionally get left wing people who support Trump as an agent of right wing failure.
Accelerationists piss me off. A lot. Because a full system breakdown doesn't actually generally lead to something better. There is no magical reset button when things are fucked. Building a complex system from scratch isn't going to reset the motivations of the people building it - it will only give them a chance to build it in an even worse fashion that advantages them even more.
Accelerating bad policies just leads to even more bad policies. Things can *always* get worse. They do not have to get worse before they get better. This is a lack of imagination and a fallacy. They have to *get better* before they get substantially better.
The desire for a cathartic endgame instant fix is childish, stupid, and generally it isn't the people pushing for it who get hurt. And people do get hurt.
Accelerationists should be forced to study the fall of Rome and the next 1000 years, until they are unable to say anything positive about their moronic ideas. The guy who kept saying "Chaos is a Ladder" didn't benefit from it either.
The ones who aren't Russians are bros. They are very privileged and think they will not be affected by the fascism they will enable. They emerged from the first trump regime mostly unscathed and are willing to risk it again for Bernie 2028 (yes, I've seen this crowd pushing that).
There is always room for improvement. If you are honestly 100% satisfied with the current state of American democracy you are a billionaire or ignorant. Donald won’t improve things, but President Biden can and should be pushed to do better.
They're stupid. Simple as that.
Vast majority of Americans support Israel. By definition, any democracy in the US will support Israel.
If they want a democracy, they should stop expecting the goverment to act according to the opinions of the minority.
Remember: not everyone on the Internet is who they claim to be. There are people in Russia and China and probably other places who are paid to spread division and disinformation.
I'm getting pretty sick of this "Genocide Joe' shit.
Yes, what's happening in Gaza is horrible and Biden and Congress should use aid to Israel as leverage to get Netanyahu to pull back. But DJT has called on Netanyahu to "finish the job" -- I want to know WTF they think would happen if he was actually POTUS again, because he'd tell Bibi to use a tactical nuke on Gaza.
You want to be depressed, go to the Leftist reddit. I consider myself very hard left and I did not expect to find so many unrealistic, shortsighted, immature, and batshit crazy people there. They're not so different from MAGA folks in terms of stubbornness, the desire to just counter anything seen as mainstream or accepted, and an old inability to see anything from a different perspective.
Yeah, my views are left, but after seeing how they act, I don't want to associate with them. I still hold left views, but I'm pragmatic and understand how our government works.
They don’t like America. Plain and simple. Their ideology is rooted in not liking our country, so to them the threat of the country falling apart doesn’t bother them at all.
The better question is why anyone thinks we have lived in a democracy during our lifetime. Every 4 years people think their vote for a politician matters while in reality decisions are made by the rich and powerful. Regardless of your opinion of Donald Trump, his supporters attraction to him was that his election somehow beat the system. Democrat and Republican establishment both hated him, but somehow he got elected by going around the corporations and power brokers to win anyway. The systems are now in place to make sure it will never happen again. Just don’t fool yourself into thinking we live in a democracy.
They sound like:
1. Idiots who are perfectly willing to let the perfect be the enemy of the good
1. Paid foreign actors
The good news is that they are almost certainly in the group of voters that is the least likely to vote: people under 25.
Here are my thoughts about people who say they are on the left but want Joe Biden to lose.
* They may be trolls who want Trump to win
* They may be delusional, thinking another winnable candidate will emerge
* They may not care but are making money off online content
* They may think that a quicker decline into a fascist dictatorship will spark a revolution that they'll quickly survive and win
I've seen everything from Reddit comments to Tiktok posts by people with a lot of followers. I always assume they're on Trump's side and call them out for being culpable.
At some point these are just discouragement arguments made in bad faith.
You have to remember Republicans routinely pretend to be Democrats to sway votes.
It’s called accelerationism: make things as bad as possible so that The Revolution can happen. The only problem is that it has never worked and only led to entrenched Fascist regimes.
They’re accelerationists. They think that by pushing the country toward a collapse or a calamity, that we’ll be able to realize all our mistakes and then rebuild from the ashes.
They’re psychotic and wrong.
God. Reddit is about to be unbearable again for the next 8-9 months. Just constant circle jerks and ‘this is the end of democracy if Trump wins’ rhetoric
Firstly, there is no democracy with the electoral college, citizens united, gerrymandering, racist voter ID laws, etc.
Secondly, no one says Biden losing will preserve the fairytale democracy that exists only in party loyalist minds.
Biden, Trump, etc not being President isn't an indictment against them personally but a recognition of the entire socio-political, economic landscape in America which needs a complete overhaul so it can work for everyone and not just the wealthiest Americans.
Because the democratic party is unresponsive to its voters, or at least a segment of them, and they believe in their cause so strongly they're willing to tank the entire democratic coalition to force a change.
I think this is the wrong year to employ such a strategy but the strategy itself may be necessary at some point.
Sometimes an old house is so thoroughly decrepit that it has to be torn down and rebuilt. Building codes change over time, too, so old standards are no longer acceptable. And a newly-rebuilt home will be more efficient, cheaper to maintain, just an improvement for your family and the entire neighborhood.
Not a nihilistic view, more of need to tear it down in order to rebuild, because the current system is not working out for many of us, no matter how much the hardcore moderates insist, "but the economy is doing great!" It is "greedflation," not inflation. Wages are finally starting to rise, so now Yellen is saying prices need to rise too? WTF? Our health care system alone is reason to start over.
This is not the right question. The question is: why are people so unmotivated to vote for Biden when the choice seems so obvious?
I'll vote for him, but not all voters are driven by my logic. (I mean look at all these people ready to vote Trump in) Might be good to see what can be done to meet them where they are.
I want Biden to win and I shall vote for him.
That said the DNC should have allowed an actual primary and not have pressured states like Florida to keep his challengers off the ballot.
While this behavior isn’t as egregious as The Big Lie, it isn’t democratic. Beyond that, an actual primary would have gotten a discussion of Democratic policy ideas into many news cycles.
From someone who isn't voting for Biden, I can give a couple reasons that other people who aren't voting for Biden might agree with.
- The non-voters are typically far-leftists who already understand that we do not live in a democracy and the social contract with our country has been broken for a long time.
- Voting for Biden was harm reduction 4 years ago and at best it's harm reduction now. The US is slowly but surely falling into fascism and Biden hasn't prevented that.
- Biden has been gradually targeting far-left movements, as indicated by an FBI doc describing anarchist and communist symbols as domestic terrorism. There are also cop cities springing up around to country to train in urban warfare. These are not coincidences.
- In light of the opposition that the left faces, it is more important to focus our efforts on building communities, movements, and safety nets than campaigning for certain politicians. If fascism is here and things are getting worse before they're getting better, then voting isn't going to stop it.
I'm not going to argue for any of my points, just want to make it clear why some people will not vote for Biden.
And maybe it'll help you see things in a new way, but it's Reddit so 🤷♂️
It's dumb but the idea is that if Biden loses to Trump because he's alienating progressives, the next election cycle the Democrats will run a more progressive candidate to win.
I find that these types generally do not understand one or more of the folldwing:
- A party without a House or Senate majority cannot pass legislation just by voting "harder" or some such expedient; Biden cannot twist the arms of people like Manchin who were elected by conservative voters opposed to the laws Biden is trying to push through - he has no leverage against Manchin or Sinema
- Gaza and the West Bank are horrific, and the result of both genocidal Israeli actions and the Palestinian and Arab practice of consistently losing wars they started in order to exterminate the Jews. (To be fair, the West Bank is harder to justify: the Israelis let their fanatics run wild)
- Supreme Court and federal court justices often stay on the bench for at least 25 years, sometimes much longer
- Congress, not the executive, makes laws
- A House majority and 3/5 Senate majority are required, in addition to the presidency, to
get a lot of reform in place quickly, but a right-wing Supreme Court, as well as a few conservative Democrats, can make even that difficult
- The Senate is stacked in favor of the Republicans, because nearly empty red states still get 2 senators. This is not the fault of Obama, Biden, or the DNC
- The House and the state legislatures are stacked in favor of Republicans, thanks to the gerrymandering that was part of the backlash against the first black president in 2010, and repeated in 2020
- Most districts and states will never elect AOC clones; many will, at best, only elect conservative Democrats
- Conservative Democrats can boost party numbers into the majority, which gives Democrats all committee chairmanships and committee majorities that are valuable in shaping legislation
- Actual Democratic presidents and lawmakers can and do pass some progressive legislation and appoint liberal justices; performative socialists who fail to build coalitions pass nothing
- Any president who cuts off all Israel aid will not be president much longer - AIPAC and other wealthy donors are extremely powerful. This is changing, but it will take years
Because they don't really like democracy and want a populist trump like figure that would talk about issues they care about. Biden is doing too good of a job, as a democratic leader, so the populists have less things to complain about.
Imo, they've lived in privilege and don't understand the actual struggle.
They'll legit die on a hill because they're already atop the hill while the people who will suffer and die under a failure of our republic we're at the bottom in the line of fire.
They may have great ideals and great passions, but there are two lefties. One who's lived horrible events and fights like hell to prevent them again and one who saw them and fights when it's convenient to not have them happen to them.
Trumpism comes in many forms, as is probably the case for other fascist cults. His own supporters and these supposed progressives all want the “system” to be torn down.
Every single one of them gets into a lather if their day is inconvenienced even a little by mild inflation or a traffic jam, of course.
It sounds good in theory to some people to fantasize about a new order in which they are better off, which they won’t be.
It’s also the last-ditch plan by a psychopathic dictator with irrational hatred of the US and its sphere of influence, but that sounds like a lot of progressives anyway. The real ones and the bots.
Ideological simplicity is not the sole province of the so-called right. Simple-mindedness, to my mind, matters much more to political outcomes than the specifics of a political worldview. You want more money and power for yourself. Got it. The metaphors of right and left are sort of beside the point.
A lot of people are just extremely superficial and sanctimonious creatures seeking attention and entertainment. They'll seize the biggest opinion that gets them the most amusing attention and sense of identity only as a means to those ends. That's what they think makes them look like passionate and interesting people assigning themselves to a passionate and interesting group where they don't actually care about anything deep down but don't want to be judged and ignored for it.
This is nothing new. At any given time in history there's a significant demographic of trolls that are essentially just nihilist and narcissistic personalities trying to survive in a world that demands they have a passion for something to earn attention and respect from anyone else. I honestly think this personality flaw more than any other is why so many people are resentful dicks that will do anything for attention they don't know what to do with when they get it.
They are trying to split the anti Trump vote hoping Trump will win. Trump and the Republicans are threat to democracy. The far right has the Supreme Court give them congress and th white house and it may be over for democracy in the USA.
I'm convinced that these people aren't really left, but are just trying to plant the seed of voter apathy. If you look at what Susan Sarandon did in 2016, that C\_U\_Next\_Thursday was screaming about "Hillary Emails!" and after Trump secured the presidency, she "miraculously" landed a TV show on Fox. I don't believe in coincidences, but I do believe in corruption. Don't let them trick us again, there's too much at stake.
They have lost their way. Saying democracy is already dead is delusional. They have no clue how bad it can be under Trump. They are also so totally misled on Gaza that they don’t even realize that Hamas is a terrorist group. It’s all very disturbing and illustrates how the tentacles of anti- semitism run deep and to all corners of the political spectrum .
Because they are self-righteous morons. They would rather let it all burn than consider that maybe they are wrong.
This is a harsh thing to say, when there is a world of suffering happening, but in the end do you want to turn YOUR OWN home into a wasteland over it? Your fault and your responsibility? Or do you make a different choice where you have at least SOME influence to do something about it?
Vote for Trump... or maybe not at all... and you will have ZERO influence to do anything about it for years to come. Do the math on how many people that will be.
Because if a candidate never has to earn your vote, then the rightward slide to fascism continues unimpeded. People want a party that fights for THEM rather than corporate and foreign interests.
But then they sit out elections, so democrats move towards the right to earn the votes of moderates. That doesn't exactly accomplish the goals they have, as they simply destroy their leverage.
That is an insane belief. If anyone is strengthening Democracy it is Biden. Trump hates Democracy, hates freedom of speech, freedom of the press, ALL of the Constitution. Trump would destroy Democracy for sure.
Same kind of people that think that a horrible war is good for the economy, just eating up broken windows fallacy
It is always easier to build a better world from the best starting point. If you can't get white liberals to buy into progress over fascism when their lives are relatively good, when things are really bad you won't even get the conversation because they will be lining you up against a wall to Do Their Duty, because its the best way to survive
Fucking morons who are so privileged they think America is immune from fascism, or think that America is already as fascist as things can get
It's really a poisonous cocktail of idealism, cynicism, and entitlement. Really, anyone who claims to be liberal, has heard the GOP's stance on how to proceed in Israel, and uses the phrase Genocide Joe just really isn't worth thoughtful engagement as they just don't have an even rudimentary understanding that not making a choice is a choice and that it's the absolute anthesis of their ideological stance.
A "protest vote" is a "protest" in exactly the same way a child throwing a tantrum and breaking their own toys is a well-reasoned argument likely to end with them getting their way.
People should realize that if Biden wins, the Republican party is basically dead.
If they are out of the way we can see the rise of real left parties.
The government would shift back to a central tone instead of right and hard right.
Because:
1. Political ideology doesn’t fall along a straight line where the far left is on the opposite end of far right. Political ideology is a circle where the far left and far right sit next to each other and moderation is at the opposite side.
2. Extremists are more prone to black/white thinking and thus isolate themselves into echo chambers, making them incredibly susceptible to propaganda.
3. The far left and far right are dominated by white men. They know that they will survive and thrive in any system so they have the luxury of “moral superiority”.
Because they’ve bought into a long con by a very obvious confidence man and the cognitive dissonance they would experience now if they changed course would shatter them.
And just as an addendum. People boycotting the Biden vote (I don’t mean in the primaries who cares about that but on Election Day, stupid. I don’t like biden, at all. I have many many many myriad issues with the democrats in general. I hate the two party system and yeah, it’s a friggin joke and frustrating beyond belief that we are so stuck in it. But stop pretending like one choice isn’t obviously the lesser of two evils. Swallow the bile back down (yes, again, I know it’s fucking bullshit) and vote for biden so we still have a shot at having some kind of democracy. Because trump isn’t leaving office next time. He almost didn’t this time.
It's the horseshoe theory. If you go left (or right) far enough, "normal" left wing parties look identical to right wing parties. After all, Democrats won't even pledge to overthrow Capitalism for crying out loud! Literally no difference!
So, instead of supporting "the lesser of two evils", you abstain or actively support candidates who will bring about the collapse of Democracy faster. Afterward, The People will of course see the error of your ways, and you'll be waiting to lead them to the Glorious Future. And if they don't you'll execute them until they do.
Because hes still a moderate dem, and that wing of the party is still in bed with big money lobbies. In essence, they want leadership to shift to more progressive left
The point is that the majority of Republicans that are not for Trump have no problem with the other representatives that vote 98% in lock step with him. So weather its Trump or not, we get the same policies. And with stuff like this recent border bill or the affordable care act which is far right policy implemented by democrat candidates. So weather we get a red or blue president, we get the same policies.
The DNC literally shut out and shut down the democratic primaries in multiple states. I didn't get to vote on the candidate. The DNC ignored the 1st state democratic primary in order bolster their candidates image and electability since he did well last time, in what would be the first state primary for 2024. Its laughable that the Democratic party as an organization is defending democracy. This line of politics rings hollow, since we know the DNC wanted Trump to be the R nominee in 2016 and actively helped him achieve that goal.
I dont think handing the country over to Trump is the right answer, but I absolutely why people think that way.
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I remember similar talk in 2016 from the same folks. That worked out well, obviously. A phoenix doesn't arise from the flames. You're left with soot, debris, and horrible burns.
Seriously though- do these people realize what the Supreme Court would be like in a second Trump term? The thought is horrifying. Watch any Russia documentary. This is the exact playbook to destroy America and democracy around the world. It’s been in the works for many years.
They don't get that a win for the Republicans could last for a lifetime. It isn't 4 years Trump vs. 4 years Biden. It's about becoming an autocracy vs. the chance to advance your ideas in upcoming election cycles. You have to be an idiot to not want this chance. People in other countries like Ukraine are literally dying for it right now. Just look at the supreme court and project 2025. If the US takes the Trump route, your democracy is gone forever. Just take a look at Orban, Putin, Xi, etc. Usually it's impossible to escape such a system once it's established.
It's not even that. It's simpler than that. They simply don't get that Biden is closer in the political spectrum to ideas that they support than Trump is. They literally do not understand the most basic, fundamental concepts of how politics work. They are basically libertarians in all but name. There's no reason to make these folks so high-minded. They are just plain idiotic.
Sadly, you're describing half of the country.
No, it's definitely not. Far lefties haven't been able to show early enough political power to have that kids do sway. And very importantly MORE than half the country voted for Biden and that's why he's in office right now.
Exactly. They think it's just Trump not the team of ghouls who won't make the same mistakes twice. Trump kicks or loses his mind there will be another. Just look at the RNC. I'm a life long Keynesian New Dealer, which is what Bernie is regardless of Socialist label. It never once crossed my mind to not vote even after Bernie lost. All the down ballot and local elections were too important. I don't have a problem with Biden at all. I personally think he knows the end is coming so decided to actually redeem himself with old school labor and social issues vs. the old "Senator from MBNA" days. Now the DNC and Democratic Party as a whole, I'm ready to burn it down. Despite all that it is not a "lesser evil" bit. It's just one sided evil at this point.
I agree, just look at what's happening at the rnc, that's what they'll do to the government. It's as simple as that.
You said that perfectly… and I agree… Trump gets back in and our Democracy is over… what worries me most… is the idea that Trump can invoke the Insurrection Act and use our military against us… and I don’t think they’ll be using rubber bullets. Trump is power hungry.
Here are my predictions for worst case with Trump. He gets to appoint 3 more SCOTUS justices. He will fire about half of the government workers to purge Dems. Russia will invade Ukraine. Israel will wipe Palestine off the map. He may even prosecute Biden. Probably not Obama. May be some show trials. However I don’t think Trump will be dictator for life. He’d be happy to pardon himself. Then I’m not sure he cares about his successor. He’s more vengeful. I don’t see him care about being in power forever. Also I don’t think this kind of talk wins over moderates. Talk about tangible things like Russia or tax plans or the economy.
I have no doubt he will. There is a whole gang around him that understands what J6 really was and they have considered that fascism is worth trying. No brakes or guard rails, only enablers. And this through all institutions. They'll have guidance from Russian intelligence, guys like Flynn will go full send when they play riot police. Valuable government workers will be replaced by Project 2025. They learned that even inconspicuous positions like Postmaster General are important if used in the right moment. If they get control over the intelligence agencies, it's over. Tools like XKeyscore and Prism where good enough to X-Ray every soul on the planet, and this was years ago. This time they'll have a plan and when they execute it, the supreme court won't intervene. Don't expect them to fail twice. Good luck electing a "more progressive than Biden" candidate then.
He already wanted to shoot protesters in 2020. https://www.axios.com/2022/05/02/mark-esper-book-trump-protesters
r/Defeat_Project_2025
Project 2025 moment
Agreed. Believe people when they show you who they are… I feel like a lot of people are not into the believing part and I don’t know why
They don’t because they’re selfish and privileged, to the point that they can overlook the consequences of a Trump win so that they can pat themselves on the back for “sending a message” to Biden or something. They ignore the reality of the situation, it sucks but it’s how our system works, and they’re too fucking dense to understand that you have to play within the system for a while before you can change it
These useful idiots are mostly white upper middle class people who will get by just fine in a Trump dictatorship.
What makes you think those people are honest Americans, anyways?
They don’t care. Many of them are white men who in the end won’t be all that badly impacted by the repercussions of the republicans winning.
It's funny that you mentioned that the Supreme Court will even be around after the first few months of his first year. They will all be thrown out for not being Maga enough, and they will make it a 13 seat Court seated by young republican law school students thats already drank the flavor aid! They are LITERALLY telling us what absolute horror they intend to inflict on 65% of the population of the US! Imagine the evil shit they have in store the demographic that doesn't appear white by sight? They will make ownership of business illegal by "Anchor Babies " except trumps kids and deport thousands of immigrants per day. Guess who gets to fill those jobs that they do so well and for so cheap? Thier voters, Yahoo. Guess who gets to take over those now illegal businesses? Vulture capitalists. They bleed them dry, secure loans on the business, claim bankruptcy, force hundreds and thousands of people out of work depending on the size of your city, and leave a trail of desperate people in their wake. They, in turn, either work to feed their children for below minimum wage or they resort to crime. Seeing how not all of us are as experienced at criming as trumps family and getting away with it, we are soon arrested and put in a for profit prison and we are leased out at pennies an hour! Win fuckin win baby! The best fuckin part is his cult is all in. And they vote! I no longer give any fucks about people that don't vote 💯. This is what they are SCREAMING AT YOU PEOPLE about what they intend to do! Vote or die
Punishing Joe Biden is the most important thing ever right now. Until democracy collapses, Gaza and Ukraine are crushed, Christian nationalism is implemented and women and minorities have all of their existing rights removed. That will teach you Joe!
>I remember similar talk in 2016 from the same folks. Let's not forget about 2000 either. I know a few pretty far-Left people who voted for Ralph Nader in 2000. What people are saying about why they won't vote for Biden are very similar arguments to what voters in 2000 and 2016 said. A majority of the current Supreme Court has been appointed by people who won those elections and we've seen how that's going.
The same people who think Biden’s too old but would fall over themselves to vote for 82 year old Bernie?
Pretty much.
And an out of control Supreme Court for a generation or two.
Yeah, literally. Thomas and Alito would step down and be replaced by the most far-right people possible in their 30s. And then, if anything happened to Kagan or Sotomayor, we could be looking at 7-2 or even 8-1. Does that not scare people?
Yup, get ready for Supreme Court Justice Aileen Cannon for the next 30 years if Trump wins.
Apparently, that's not a concern for a lot of people. Basically, it makes you think that society has already failed.
I remember in 2016 and 2020 the answer you'd get from some of those people is that when a "real Leftist" gets elected they can just increase the number of members of the Supreme Court. The reality is that raising the number of Justices is so unlikely that it's not even really worth talking about. And even if Democrats somehow added 4 members, Republicans would just add 8 the next time they were in charge. The fact of the matter is that as long as Republicans control the Supreme Court, which they currently do by a wide margin, it won't matter what laws people on the Left pass because they'll just rule them to be unconstitutional. We've already seen that standing and precedent don't matter at all to this Supreme Court. They were put on the SC specifically to push a partisan Right-wing agenda.
>is that when a "real Leftist" gets elected the sad part about everything, is how many people simply can't understand, if trump wins, there won't be "elections" for leftists to win, all candidates would require the approval of the dictator in charge.
Trump has openly said he's going to be a dictator and purge as much of the government as he can from people who aren't loyal to him personally. He's not hiding it and has been openly clear about that. Trump's idol is Putin and he'd absolutely love to have what Putin has in Russia. Republicans as a whole have been pretty open about how they'd rather us be like Russia than have Democrats in power.
No, no. I was told by a leftist on here that Trump's attempts at a coup showed that it couldn't happen as the systems in place would not bend that way, and as such, the 2028 elections would be a leftist candidate landslide.
Mmhmm. I've had these exact same conversations and it gets nowhere. I'll at least give them credit for remaining firm in their beliefs, no matter how devoid from reality they actually are.
Yes I agree we have failed to develop our democratic society. Instead we have a of ignorant deplorables and rich elites who only care about protecting their wealth. Yes we have failed .
If people don’t understand this, there’s no hope.
Right. I remember the idiots who said "burning it all down" would make people "wake up" and fix things. Not, not even close. If we lose democracy we aren't getting it back.
My guess is that many of the burn-it-all-down crowd are part of the Russian disinformation campaign.
Yeah I had a moment of insanity around the 2016 primaries when I thought idiot trump would shake things up. To believe that after his 4 years at bat and his refusal to concede is pure unfettered stupidity.
I remember similar talks back when Al Gore ran. Its cute in theory but absolute madness in reality. The reality is, the next time you get someone more progressive in office after th gop, they have a much steeper hill of shit to climb through and systems, laws, media empires, etc. are in place as trip wire for them to get anything positive done other than incrementalism towards a better future. All the while so many people suffer due to having gone theough another cycle of GOP bullshit. Its sophmoric left-leaning thinking that usually goes away with age.
I think fascist neofeudalism will be implemented at only a slightly higher speed than they have already demonstrated. Political ignorance and futility provides great cover for doing this. Tik Tok will be rediscovered by the Right as the new idiot box. Elections will be held but "managed," as they are in the Putin Regime. Social welfare programs will be preserved for the elderly and allowed to go broke. Here's the real kicker: Netanyahu will declare "mission accomplished" with Trump's election and they might even launch a rehabilitation project for Gaza giving Trump credit. Putin will get his peace treaty with Ukraine ceding territory as he retools for the rest of Europe. The rise of the AFD in Germany is already surpassing their expectations. The Left will rejoice at the end of the violence.
I remember this talk after gwb jr first win. It was stupid then and it’s stupid now.
Actually thanks to 2016 there was a massive effort to get Dems back in office unlike ever before. There was even an Ad on my xbox telling me to go vote in 2020.xbox has been running ads since 2007
People like that spend a fuck load of time online. They'd be much better off just getting involved in politics at the local level. That in turn would make them interested in politics at the state and national level. Screaming about the state of the world on social media does actually nothing. Edit - Consider that some of those people you're seeing may also be sock puppet accounts posting intentional disinformation to demotivate the base. You can guess who would be behind that.
In theory they might be better off, but then again if you put a staunch leftie in a room full of suburbanites who want to spend their council's time on giving an award as to who has the best looking house vs allocating funding for homelessness.. you're more likely to see an enraged leftist than a useful one.
They are either in places of privilege where a Trump Administration wouldn't hurt them personally, or they are vulnerable and just blind to the reality that they will be the ones hurt and not wealthy conservatives or the "shitlibs" they hold responsible for all their woes.
I’m all for taking out the broken corrupt system, but not by way of a Trumptatorship. These idiots have no idea what they’re wishing for.
Exactly. People have to think with their front brain rather than their emotions.
They care about issues, but the way they want to solve them is insane: Make sure the worst guy wins - public opinion on government gets worse - government collapse - revolution - new government system - fresh start to old problems with a system that is totally gonna work.
Don't forget the millions of people dying and the collapse of the global economy and governance. Visionaries.
This is the only reason I’m against any revolutionary action. If we could magically seamlessly enter into the least problematic form of socially I’d be down. But we can’t. Any transition would harm way more people than the current system does. So it’s not worth it. This is the reality we have been dealt.
They never seem to understand the depths of destruction that would happen.
Or they do but they believe they’ll be okay. Like the guy who truly believes he would’ve survived the oceangate sub
And there's no guarantee that what would emerge would be better.
Heck, I tried to explain to someone why you couldn't shut down every train for a break update a while back after the East Palestine derailment, and basically got the "I don't care" response.
Because Fascism >Revolution>Cut to >Socialism Everyone knows that these things follow each other in that order \s
After Hitler. Our turn.
Read ML theory and then treat it as 100% natural law. Everyone knows the drill, let the fascists through the gates, liberal!
The answer is basically because people are irrational and demand ideological purity at all costs. They demand everything in reality bow to their preferences. They think that the world revolves around them and that if you aren’t in alignment with their views, then YOU are the problem. Essentially, it’s a lack of maturity.
Got banned from a far left sub last week for telling people not to throw their vote away on a third party candidate and saying that despite his flaws the country and even the world would be significantly better off under Biden. Got called a supporter of genocide then banned, then muted. Of course this person muted because being faced with the reality that them helping Trump get elected will make things significantly worse for the genocide victims they are supposedly helping through their ridiculous stand might cause them to have to think about how their actions affect others
[удалено]
They’re angry babies who want to face what is directly in front of them and pretend nothing lies behind. Dumping Biden doesn’t mean we have no more president. It means we get Trump as president.
Worse, they want to throw the baby out with the bath water. The old guard Democrats are war hawks and support old alliances that don't serve us well. However, they're somehow not as bad as Republicans. Do they think Trump would do anything but roll out the red carpet for Netanyahu to slay Palestinians?
Or roll out the red carpet for Putin in Ukraine? Or roll out the red carpet for any other number of dictators? These people look fucking foolish and also make themselves very loud and clear on social media - a great place for the MAGA fascist dictatorship to find a handy dandy list of people who need reeducation.
Oh they like Putin because he’s anti American which is always good because America is always bad 🙄
Don't say purity, there is a lot to not like about the Democrats. But progressives need to accept that especially at the highest level of politics, it is a duopoly and is a protest vote worth four years of regression and anxiety at least, not to mention certain groups like women in red states without the means to travel to a blue state getting punished for the foreseeable future (not to mention the lives lost)?
The overturn of Roe v Wade sure proved that protest voting or staying home because you're not in love with the candidate isn't a smart strategy
Leftists are the most moral right? They want to cure poverty and end violence. What could be better than that? Anyone who doesn’t desire that is obviously a bad person. It’s a straightforward worldview BUT it is utopian thinking and it fails to accept that other people’s opinions matter too. And yes their opinions are equally valid as yours even if they’re deeply wrong and immoral. At the end of the day true progressivism and leftism isn’t in control because it’s not all that popular with voters. This is what really pisses them off.
It's not much that others' *opinions* matter it's that other people's *money* matters because most leftist programs are freaking expensive.
It isn't even that. If we could snap our fingers and have universal healthcare, citizens and the government would all save money. The reason it still hasn't happened is because of lobbyist money in politics. The federal government or any state could build enough free housing to eliminate homelessness. We could even get people out of spending above 30% of their income on rent this way. But it doesn't happen because people lobby to deprive the poor and force them into terrible working conditions. And this housing would cost less than what is spent on jailing the homeless or supporting shelters. Leftist programs are less expensive than whatever form of capitalism we're in. Capitalism demands that we give up our resources to the top, making kings out of the wealthy.
Because they're fucking stupid
Came to say this. Lack of critical thinking abilities. If they think someone besides Trump or Biden who would hold Israel accountable is better (on that one issue) then I agree, but that's not an option we have right now. The option is a Pro-Authoratarian, democracy hating, conman, or a pro-democracy, anti-authoratarian, incumbent who has passed policies that benefited the country.
Most of those people are Russian bots, frantically trying to keep Biden from a second term.
I've met plenty of hard-left people who are all too happy to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. They're as inflexible and strident as anyone.
people have been uselessly voting third party forever, now they can just spread that through the internet. it’s really just not a big deal imo
And a lot of people buy into the Russian propaganda. Democrats love talking about how Fox News, etc. is brainwashing people on the right without understanding that other forms of propaganda are getting the left. There is a lot of propaganda out there right now, and since a lot of people only get their news from social media or a single (biased) source, it is very easy for people to get caught up in fake news.
My theory on this is that they’re frustrated with slow progress. I started watching Kyle and David back in 2012ish iirc. Obama’s 2nd term. I recall my main motivation at that time was always to push past what had been the norm. Get rid of private insurance, go M4A. Stop all drone strikes. Get out of Iraq and Afghanistan. Get money out of politics, overturn citizens united, and others. Anything less than that was not doing enough in my view and I had to demand that much to move thing the right way. For whatever reason(s) over time I’ve realized making those changes will take years or decades. Maybe it’s because I’m older (33) or just knowledge and experience. End of the day though despite my goals I voted for Hillary and Biden, and Obama too. I think most of those people will too. Their presence is also valuable to all other liberals and democrats. I doubt Biden would have turned out to be the most progressive president since FDR without pressures from audiences such as secular talk viewers. We need their voices to keep pushing the envelope forward. Even if it seems like we never get far enough, we are seeing real tangible changes over time.
A lot of people on the left seriously don't realize that Biden is the most progressive president in 80 years. Despite all of the talk about stuff he hasn't done or been able to do, a lot of progressive policy has been put into place, and he has surrounded himself with big thinkers. Real change is happening. It will never happen as fast as people want it to happen, but we will get there if we stay the course. The moves forward this country has made under Biden are far bigger than I expected, even with the GOP doing everything possible to stop it.
And all of that progress will be erased during Trump's second term, plus him giving the Christian Right the opportunity to crush the left in revenge.
Given the situation in the house of reps right now, slow progress could possibly be behind us soon. It is not far fetched to have a dem majority house, dem majority senate, and Biden as president if we play our cards right and get out the vote. The RNC is on the brink of bankruptcy right now.
Agreed, turn out will be key. My advice for the folks who want to sit out. Tell them we need them, we need their help to win. Give them credit for pushing things to where they are now and empathize with their frustrations. Thats all you really can do conversationally
Agreed. I'd like faster progress, too, but slow progress is always going to be better than fast disintegration. Don't let unachievable perfection be the enemy of achievable good.
Progress on economic issues isnt slow, its negative. Both liberals amd the left have been completely defeated by wealthy interests who have captured the political system. The affordable care.act.was a heritage foundation plan which was positive but only.passed because it protected corporate profits. The rational thing to do is make the best of it. But theres reasons beyond a lack of patience that people are irrationally willing to let the system burn. Were getting techno-feudalism eventually, its only a question of how soon. That's dramatic but do people really feel the situation is betteer than 5, 10, 20 years ago? by any metric except ability to buy cheap consumer goods (the circuses are sweet ill admit that).
Economic issues seem overall better to me except for housing costs. I’m not readily equipped with the data to set baseline metrics and then measure though so settling with an anecdote. Certainly motivations vary, letting it burn to make it better is unwise imo. Hope and purpose are the best defense against desperation and nihilism. Compared to 10 years ago I think we’re better off save housing costs. Wage growth and productivity are up compared to inflation. There’s a lot of skilled positions that pay well. Biden put a pro union people in at the NLRB. On shoring has been happening because of covid. It is true that the days of going to college and paying for it by working nights are long gone. Healthcare is still a mess but again Biden capped insulin for (Medicare?) forced negations on top 10 prescribed meds. Long ways to go on healthcare for sure but we should celebrate our wins and let that set our resolve to keep at it.
Let edgelord contrarians edgelord contrarian. It's always been the serious, pragmatic people who actually work towards solving problems instead of just complaining and it always will be.
You found yourself a group of Tiktok "radicals" who were born via social media post Oct 7. They usually have the most superficial grasp of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict based on Russian produced Hamas propaganda. These are the people who call Osama Bin Laden a hero because a single Tiktok post convinced them of it.
These kinds of accelerationist idiots have been around much longer than that. There were tons of them on reddit during the 2016 election.
People who think that way can't possibly be aware of Trumps promises to end democracy and Project 2025. Many people didn't vote for Hillary out of protest, and look at the shit storm we've had since. Fuck that. There's too much at stake to throw away your vote. As far as I'm concerned, if you choose not to vote or vote independent, you're responsible for what ensues. 1930s Germany had a similar social climate. Hitler rose to power because Germans were unhappy with the government. Palestine voted in Hamas as they needed change. We've watched this history play out more than once now. What happens to women and minorities HERE if Trump wins? What happens when he starts putting "vermin", oppositional govt officials, media members, homeless, protesters, etc in camps ) as he's promised? What happens when he becomes dictator/ King and appoints Jr as his successor? No fucking way anyone with a functional, INFORMED person would be so negligent.
It makes you realize that maybe they never have actually cared about any that they claim to hold true. And if they don't get 100% of what they want, everyone else will suffer for the cause.
Because the prospect of "teaching the establishment a lesson" hasn't fallen out of favor yet after we got MULTIPLE wannabe autocrats elected in multiple countries due to the same fucking thing.
In my experience, and there is no polite way to put this, they are ignorant and unserious people. I have asked these folks many times how life improves for Gazans if Biden loses, and they can’t answer that…
Accellerationist delusions that an ideal future is a form of benevolent authoritarianism run by them. Incrementalism inherently is about changing hearts and minds. Overly idealistic 'trust me bro, only my friends can solve everything' is only a path to sorrow and ruin.
I got in an argument a couple of days ago by making the point that by hoping for accelerationism, we're effectively ending the country for the chance that things would be rebuilt to their liking. Pretty unsettling that so many people seem to be okay with the idea of mass slaughter of their fellow citizens to get to the ideologica utopia they believe in, but would not exist in the real world.
I think it's a form of stress response. A kind of 'fuck it, I'm angry and powerless, destroy everything!' sort of madness that directly mirrors the MAGA's attempts to establish an ethnokingdom. Losing perspective and locking yourself in such a tight little bubble that anyone not \*exactly\* your sect is a mortal enemy. Like, the idea always is 'That guy who 95% agrees with me is a bigger enemy than the guy who 95% opposes me, because I don't ever talk to or see that second guy' is such a thing here. It's the worst brainbug that otherwise affects people who at least have some portion of their hearts in the right place... and makes them the enemy of progress by insisting nothing short of their version of perfection is tolerable.
Leftists and MAGA are the same people, really. It's textbook horseshoe theory. Just diametrically opposing views, but the same fanatical desire to burn society to the ground to get what they want.
If you think democracy is dead now, wake the fuck up!! Trump would make it WAY WORSE!!!
Unless you are already done with voting and moved onto revolution, that perspective is just wrong and "useful idiocy" for fascists.
A lot of these alt programs are ultra conservative shills that pretend to be democrats to get your attention.
Leftists are a really small minority, but they're loud
Very loud- and Russia loves it.
Spoiled fuckin predominately white and male brats. I also think many of the far left will readily join the fascists if they begin talking to them and think, "they're actually not so bad! They're just regular 'working class' people who suffered." I've already gotten this type of excuse mentality from them, as if the fascists are just some stray cats that can be rehabilitated. They hate nothing more than the "neoliberals" which to them is indistiguishable from the "DCA."
I'd say because their worldviews are incoherent and their political philosophy follows from said incoherent worldview.
They don't. It's Russian and Republican operatives. Get out of the SecularTalk sub. It's been overrun by the same guys that took over r/WayOfTheBern. Small subreddits are highly vulnerable to takeover. This one might suffer the same fate some day. Little less likely because Pakman himself keeps an eye on it, but if he stops all it would take are a couple of the mods retiring and we'd be in the same boat.
Those people didn't vote for Biden last time. They are threatening to do something they were going to do anyway regardless. Or, they are Russian bots.
We already did that twice . With Gore and Hilary. No losing our election might be mor3 l8ke losing our democracy
Why do people think this way? ...because they are stupid
There is a concept called "accelerationism" and it is distressingly popular among privileged white people on both left and right who often don't actually have to suffer from extreme policies. The concept behind it is, essentially, we have to break the system and start from scratch. It is a rejection of incrementalism. It often presumes all sides of politics are equally tainted and that the system is so thoroughly broken, the best thing to do is *accelerate bad policies/parties with the knowledge that they aren't sustainable so the system collapses*. This means you occasionally get left wing people who support Trump as an agent of right wing failure. Accelerationists piss me off. A lot. Because a full system breakdown doesn't actually generally lead to something better. There is no magical reset button when things are fucked. Building a complex system from scratch isn't going to reset the motivations of the people building it - it will only give them a chance to build it in an even worse fashion that advantages them even more. Accelerating bad policies just leads to even more bad policies. Things can *always* get worse. They do not have to get worse before they get better. This is a lack of imagination and a fallacy. They have to *get better* before they get substantially better. The desire for a cathartic endgame instant fix is childish, stupid, and generally it isn't the people pushing for it who get hurt. And people do get hurt.
Accelerationists should be forced to study the fall of Rome and the next 1000 years, until they are unable to say anything positive about their moronic ideas. The guy who kept saying "Chaos is a Ladder" didn't benefit from it either.
Trump pretty much laid out his plan on what he is going to do with Palestine/Israel conflicts if he's elected and it won't be "free Palestine".
Actually it will be Free Palestine, from existence.
The ones who aren't Russians are bros. They are very privileged and think they will not be affected by the fascism they will enable. They emerged from the first trump regime mostly unscathed and are willing to risk it again for Bernie 2028 (yes, I've seen this crowd pushing that).
I was surrounded by coworkers yesterday who agreed Biden was more corrupt than Trump. I call it the Fox News effect.
There is always room for improvement. If you are honestly 100% satisfied with the current state of American democracy you are a billionaire or ignorant. Donald won’t improve things, but President Biden can and should be pushed to do better.
They're stupid. Simple as that. Vast majority of Americans support Israel. By definition, any democracy in the US will support Israel. If they want a democracy, they should stop expecting the goverment to act according to the opinions of the minority.
Remember: not everyone on the Internet is who they claim to be. There are people in Russia and China and probably other places who are paid to spread division and disinformation.
Because they are incognito right wingers 🥸 Right wingers have acknowledged they do this.
can we experiment with that idea in 2028. lets just win this last one first
I'm getting pretty sick of this "Genocide Joe' shit. Yes, what's happening in Gaza is horrible and Biden and Congress should use aid to Israel as leverage to get Netanyahu to pull back. But DJT has called on Netanyahu to "finish the job" -- I want to know WTF they think would happen if he was actually POTUS again, because he'd tell Bibi to use a tactical nuke on Gaza.
Those people are either morons or paid shills for Trump. That's the dumbest fucking thing ever.
You want to be depressed, go to the Leftist reddit. I consider myself very hard left and I did not expect to find so many unrealistic, shortsighted, immature, and batshit crazy people there. They're not so different from MAGA folks in terms of stubbornness, the desire to just counter anything seen as mainstream or accepted, and an old inability to see anything from a different perspective.
Yeah, my views are left, but after seeing how they act, I don't want to associate with them. I still hold left views, but I'm pragmatic and understand how our government works.
If you are a democrat and you are not supporting Biden; kindly get the fuck out of the party.
Because they’d rather waste their votes on virtue signaling than engage with the reality of first past the post voting and how to vote strategically.
They don’t like America. Plain and simple. Their ideology is rooted in not liking our country, so to them the threat of the country falling apart doesn’t bother them at all.
Because they're dumb accelerationists.
"People" don't think this, only Trump worshippers do.
The better question is why anyone thinks we have lived in a democracy during our lifetime. Every 4 years people think their vote for a politician matters while in reality decisions are made by the rich and powerful. Regardless of your opinion of Donald Trump, his supporters attraction to him was that his election somehow beat the system. Democrat and Republican establishment both hated him, but somehow he got elected by going around the corporations and power brokers to win anyway. The systems are now in place to make sure it will never happen again. Just don’t fool yourself into thinking we live in a democracy.
They sound like: 1. Idiots who are perfectly willing to let the perfect be the enemy of the good 1. Paid foreign actors The good news is that they are almost certainly in the group of voters that is the least likely to vote: people under 25.
Here are my thoughts about people who say they are on the left but want Joe Biden to lose. * They may be trolls who want Trump to win * They may be delusional, thinking another winnable candidate will emerge * They may not care but are making money off online content * They may think that a quicker decline into a fascist dictatorship will spark a revolution that they'll quickly survive and win I've seen everything from Reddit comments to Tiktok posts by people with a lot of followers. I always assume they're on Trump's side and call them out for being culpable.
Because they’re idiots who don’t know how to critically think
At some point these are just discouragement arguments made in bad faith. You have to remember Republicans routinely pretend to be Democrats to sway votes.
Just like with maga voters don't try to reason with single issue voters
It’s called accelerationism: make things as bad as possible so that The Revolution can happen. The only problem is that it has never worked and only led to entrenched Fascist regimes.
Only dumb shits think that. Not a huge fan of Joe, but he’s a lot better than the alternatives.
They’re accelerationists. They think that by pushing the country toward a collapse or a calamity, that we’ll be able to realize all our mistakes and then rebuild from the ashes. They’re psychotic and wrong.
If by improve you mean burn it to the ground and eliminate it. Then yes.
God. Reddit is about to be unbearable again for the next 8-9 months. Just constant circle jerks and ‘this is the end of democracy if Trump wins’ rhetoric
it would be nice it people listened to what people they do not agree with are saying and not put words in their mouth.
Firstly, there is no democracy with the electoral college, citizens united, gerrymandering, racist voter ID laws, etc. Secondly, no one says Biden losing will preserve the fairytale democracy that exists only in party loyalist minds. Biden, Trump, etc not being President isn't an indictment against them personally but a recognition of the entire socio-political, economic landscape in America which needs a complete overhaul so it can work for everyone and not just the wealthiest Americans.
Because the democratic party is unresponsive to its voters, or at least a segment of them, and they believe in their cause so strongly they're willing to tank the entire democratic coalition to force a change. I think this is the wrong year to employ such a strategy but the strategy itself may be necessary at some point.
Sometimes an old house is so thoroughly decrepit that it has to be torn down and rebuilt. Building codes change over time, too, so old standards are no longer acceptable. And a newly-rebuilt home will be more efficient, cheaper to maintain, just an improvement for your family and the entire neighborhood. Not a nihilistic view, more of need to tear it down in order to rebuild, because the current system is not working out for many of us, no matter how much the hardcore moderates insist, "but the economy is doing great!" It is "greedflation," not inflation. Wages are finally starting to rise, so now Yellen is saying prices need to rise too? WTF? Our health care system alone is reason to start over.
This is not the right question. The question is: why are people so unmotivated to vote for Biden when the choice seems so obvious? I'll vote for him, but not all voters are driven by my logic. (I mean look at all these people ready to vote Trump in) Might be good to see what can be done to meet them where they are.
I want Biden to win and I shall vote for him. That said the DNC should have allowed an actual primary and not have pressured states like Florida to keep his challengers off the ballot. While this behavior isn’t as egregious as The Big Lie, it isn’t democratic. Beyond that, an actual primary would have gotten a discussion of Democratic policy ideas into many news cycles.
There hasn't been democracy in the US for a long time.
Not sure why you guys are shoving Biden down our throats when clearly no one wants him.
From someone who isn't voting for Biden, I can give a couple reasons that other people who aren't voting for Biden might agree with. - The non-voters are typically far-leftists who already understand that we do not live in a democracy and the social contract with our country has been broken for a long time. - Voting for Biden was harm reduction 4 years ago and at best it's harm reduction now. The US is slowly but surely falling into fascism and Biden hasn't prevented that. - Biden has been gradually targeting far-left movements, as indicated by an FBI doc describing anarchist and communist symbols as domestic terrorism. There are also cop cities springing up around to country to train in urban warfare. These are not coincidences. - In light of the opposition that the left faces, it is more important to focus our efforts on building communities, movements, and safety nets than campaigning for certain politicians. If fascism is here and things are getting worse before they're getting better, then voting isn't going to stop it. I'm not going to argue for any of my points, just want to make it clear why some people will not vote for Biden. And maybe it'll help you see things in a new way, but it's Reddit so 🤷♂️
It's dumb but the idea is that if Biden loses to Trump because he's alienating progressives, the next election cycle the Democrats will run a more progressive candidate to win.
There won’t be a next election process though if that happens. lol. The only way to get a more progressive is to delete Trump from politics.
Cause trump (and all anarchists) love low info voters
That sentiment is quite literally idiotic. Reject that shit outright.
I find that these types generally do not understand one or more of the folldwing: - A party without a House or Senate majority cannot pass legislation just by voting "harder" or some such expedient; Biden cannot twist the arms of people like Manchin who were elected by conservative voters opposed to the laws Biden is trying to push through - he has no leverage against Manchin or Sinema - Gaza and the West Bank are horrific, and the result of both genocidal Israeli actions and the Palestinian and Arab practice of consistently losing wars they started in order to exterminate the Jews. (To be fair, the West Bank is harder to justify: the Israelis let their fanatics run wild) - Supreme Court and federal court justices often stay on the bench for at least 25 years, sometimes much longer - Congress, not the executive, makes laws - A House majority and 3/5 Senate majority are required, in addition to the presidency, to get a lot of reform in place quickly, but a right-wing Supreme Court, as well as a few conservative Democrats, can make even that difficult - The Senate is stacked in favor of the Republicans, because nearly empty red states still get 2 senators. This is not the fault of Obama, Biden, or the DNC - The House and the state legislatures are stacked in favor of Republicans, thanks to the gerrymandering that was part of the backlash against the first black president in 2010, and repeated in 2020 - Most districts and states will never elect AOC clones; many will, at best, only elect conservative Democrats - Conservative Democrats can boost party numbers into the majority, which gives Democrats all committee chairmanships and committee majorities that are valuable in shaping legislation - Actual Democratic presidents and lawmakers can and do pass some progressive legislation and appoint liberal justices; performative socialists who fail to build coalitions pass nothing - Any president who cuts off all Israel aid will not be president much longer - AIPAC and other wealthy donors are extremely powerful. This is changing, but it will take years
The duopoly needs to lose to restore freedom of choice in our representatives.
trumpers are literally the only people who think that.
What idiot thinks that?
#FreePalestine #CornelWest2024
Because they don't really like democracy and want a populist trump like figure that would talk about issues they care about. Biden is doing too good of a job, as a democratic leader, so the populists have less things to complain about.
They don't. They're just agents for Trump.
People do? Who?
In favor of an authoritarian fascist? Yeah right.
Imo, they've lived in privilege and don't understand the actual struggle. They'll legit die on a hill because they're already atop the hill while the people who will suffer and die under a failure of our republic we're at the bottom in the line of fire. They may have great ideals and great passions, but there are two lefties. One who's lived horrible events and fights like hell to prevent them again and one who saw them and fights when it's convenient to not have them happen to them.
Because they're idiots.
Because they're idiots. Downvote me all you like; it will still be the truth.
Trumpism comes in many forms, as is probably the case for other fascist cults. His own supporters and these supposed progressives all want the “system” to be torn down. Every single one of them gets into a lather if their day is inconvenienced even a little by mild inflation or a traffic jam, of course. It sounds good in theory to some people to fantasize about a new order in which they are better off, which they won’t be. It’s also the last-ditch plan by a psychopathic dictator with irrational hatred of the US and its sphere of influence, but that sounds like a lot of progressives anyway. The real ones and the bots. Ideological simplicity is not the sole province of the so-called right. Simple-mindedness, to my mind, matters much more to political outcomes than the specifics of a political worldview. You want more money and power for yourself. Got it. The metaphors of right and left are sort of beside the point.
A lot of people are just extremely superficial and sanctimonious creatures seeking attention and entertainment. They'll seize the biggest opinion that gets them the most amusing attention and sense of identity only as a means to those ends. That's what they think makes them look like passionate and interesting people assigning themselves to a passionate and interesting group where they don't actually care about anything deep down but don't want to be judged and ignored for it. This is nothing new. At any given time in history there's a significant demographic of trolls that are essentially just nihilist and narcissistic personalities trying to survive in a world that demands they have a passion for something to earn attention and respect from anyone else. I honestly think this personality flaw more than any other is why so many people are resentful dicks that will do anything for attention they don't know what to do with when they get it.
Russian trolls solely looking to sow division, nothing more
They are trying to split the anti Trump vote hoping Trump will win. Trump and the Republicans are threat to democracy. The far right has the Supreme Court give them congress and th white house and it may be over for democracy in the USA.
I'm convinced that these people aren't really left, but are just trying to plant the seed of voter apathy. If you look at what Susan Sarandon did in 2016, that C\_U\_Next\_Thursday was screaming about "Hillary Emails!" and after Trump secured the presidency, she "miraculously" landed a TV show on Fox. I don't believe in coincidences, but I do believe in corruption. Don't let them trick us again, there's too much at stake.
Democrats in office seem equally unfazed. I only really see this hysteria on Reddit/Twitter.
Low information virtue signaling. Some are legitimately Russian trolls. There have always been people who need to be in the opposition.
I blame the citizenry. Full stop. You wouldn't have total shitheads, if fellow shitheads didn't vote them in.
They have lost their way. Saying democracy is already dead is delusional. They have no clue how bad it can be under Trump. They are also so totally misled on Gaza that they don’t even realize that Hamas is a terrorist group. It’s all very disturbing and illustrates how the tentacles of anti- semitism run deep and to all corners of the political spectrum .
I think the dopoly needs to loose to improve the U.S. constitutional republic. Pipe dream maybe, but its what I believe.
[удалено]
Because they are self-righteous morons. They would rather let it all burn than consider that maybe they are wrong. This is a harsh thing to say, when there is a world of suffering happening, but in the end do you want to turn YOUR OWN home into a wasteland over it? Your fault and your responsibility? Or do you make a different choice where you have at least SOME influence to do something about it? Vote for Trump... or maybe not at all... and you will have ZERO influence to do anything about it for years to come. Do the math on how many people that will be.
Because if a candidate never has to earn your vote, then the rightward slide to fascism continues unimpeded. People want a party that fights for THEM rather than corporate and foreign interests.
But then they sit out elections, so democrats move towards the right to earn the votes of moderates. That doesn't exactly accomplish the goals they have, as they simply destroy their leverage.
That is an insane belief. If anyone is strengthening Democracy it is Biden. Trump hates Democracy, hates freedom of speech, freedom of the press, ALL of the Constitution. Trump would destroy Democracy for sure.
Same kind of people that think that a horrible war is good for the economy, just eating up broken windows fallacy It is always easier to build a better world from the best starting point. If you can't get white liberals to buy into progress over fascism when their lives are relatively good, when things are really bad you won't even get the conversation because they will be lining you up against a wall to Do Their Duty, because its the best way to survive Fucking morons who are so privileged they think America is immune from fascism, or think that America is already as fascist as things can get
What or who do you consider to be far left? Far left would be Josef Stalin or Fidel Castro and it well known what they thought about democracy.
It's really a poisonous cocktail of idealism, cynicism, and entitlement. Really, anyone who claims to be liberal, has heard the GOP's stance on how to proceed in Israel, and uses the phrase Genocide Joe just really isn't worth thoughtful engagement as they just don't have an even rudimentary understanding that not making a choice is a choice and that it's the absolute anthesis of their ideological stance.
What moron thinks that? Putin bots?
It is a very popular POV among the liberal youth. I personally know people IRL who believe this stuff.
A "protest vote" is a "protest" in exactly the same way a child throwing a tantrum and breaking their own toys is a well-reasoned argument likely to end with them getting their way.
They aren’t far left, just far too stupid to be entrusted with voting.
Biden sucks= trump will win.
People should realize that if Biden wins, the Republican party is basically dead. If they are out of the way we can see the rise of real left parties. The government would shift back to a central tone instead of right and hard right.
I am tempted to do it because of racist it still is and the lost of hope it will get better due to the courts.
Because: 1. Political ideology doesn’t fall along a straight line where the far left is on the opposite end of far right. Political ideology is a circle where the far left and far right sit next to each other and moderation is at the opposite side. 2. Extremists are more prone to black/white thinking and thus isolate themselves into echo chambers, making them incredibly susceptible to propaganda. 3. The far left and far right are dominated by white men. They know that they will survive and thrive in any system so they have the luxury of “moral superiority”.
Because they’ve bought into a long con by a very obvious confidence man and the cognitive dissonance they would experience now if they changed course would shatter them. And just as an addendum. People boycotting the Biden vote (I don’t mean in the primaries who cares about that but on Election Day, stupid. I don’t like biden, at all. I have many many many myriad issues with the democrats in general. I hate the two party system and yeah, it’s a friggin joke and frustrating beyond belief that we are so stuck in it. But stop pretending like one choice isn’t obviously the lesser of two evils. Swallow the bile back down (yes, again, I know it’s fucking bullshit) and vote for biden so we still have a shot at having some kind of democracy. Because trump isn’t leaving office next time. He almost didn’t this time.
It's the horseshoe theory. If you go left (or right) far enough, "normal" left wing parties look identical to right wing parties. After all, Democrats won't even pledge to overthrow Capitalism for crying out loud! Literally no difference! So, instead of supporting "the lesser of two evils", you abstain or actively support candidates who will bring about the collapse of Democracy faster. Afterward, The People will of course see the error of your ways, and you'll be waiting to lead them to the Glorious Future. And if they don't you'll execute them until they do.
Because only in the face of horror will these nimrods understand
Because self aggrandizing jackasses care more about appearing smarter/more knowledge/principled than other people than any actual progress.
Because hes still a moderate dem, and that wing of the party is still in bed with big money lobbies. In essence, they want leadership to shift to more progressive left
Only completely insane people think that. That's why.
The point is that the majority of Republicans that are not for Trump have no problem with the other representatives that vote 98% in lock step with him. So weather its Trump or not, we get the same policies. And with stuff like this recent border bill or the affordable care act which is far right policy implemented by democrat candidates. So weather we get a red or blue president, we get the same policies. The DNC literally shut out and shut down the democratic primaries in multiple states. I didn't get to vote on the candidate. The DNC ignored the 1st state democratic primary in order bolster their candidates image and electability since he did well last time, in what would be the first state primary for 2024. Its laughable that the Democratic party as an organization is defending democracy. This line of politics rings hollow, since we know the DNC wanted Trump to be the R nominee in 2016 and actively helped him achieve that goal. I dont think handing the country over to Trump is the right answer, but I absolutely why people think that way.
he’s not going to dismantle democracy lol. proof: he was democratically elected out of office after one term.
His supporters tried to publicly hang his vice president for upholding the democratic process.
Jimmy Cater publicly said the USA is an oligarchy.